I just don’t see putting more spending in the hands of the gov’t will help as there is no track record of the U.S. gov’t ever doing so with any business venture – especially one so primarily dependent on supply and demand. As I’ve said reform is so needed but I disagree with this approach. We need to look at a com.
There's no track record of private insurers succeeding. The fact that society has to step in and correct things is pretty much proof that private industry isn't truly up to task with protecting the health of the public.
There's no track record of private insurers succeeding. The fact that society has to step in and correct things is pretty much proof that private industry isn't truly up to task with protecting the health of the public.
As I said reform is needed, but what you say are platitudes. You continue to blame the insurers with no quantitative evidence. How do you measure private insurers failure or success? To stretch - how is it their responsibility to cover every last person regardless of circumstance and cost? And how exactly is Gov't going to ensure that exactly within reasonable cost? And WTF is "society"? Central Gov't Control? If so how has the U.S. Gov't EVER stepped in and "corrected things" when it come to a multi-Trillion $ free enterprise similar to health care? Where's that track record?
Last edited by SonOfSmeagol; 11-06-2009 at 11:55 PM.
As I said reform is needed, but what you say are platitudes. You continue to blame the insurers with no quantitative evidence. How do you measure private insurers failure or success?
I measure their failure by our life expectancies not growing while their premiums continue to rise. I don't necessarily need the same % increase on premiums, but you'd expect Americans as a whole are living longer considering we are paying more. That's not to say that, as a whole, we already pay more in public and private costs for a lower life expectancy than the rest of the world. So I know there's no evidence other than Americans living shorter lives than virtually all industrialized nations and I'll concede that point to you.
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To stretch - how is it their responsibility to cover every last person regardless of circumstance and cost?
It isn't? Universal health care isn't as profitable as denying and purging costly policy holders.
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And how exactly is Gov't going to ensure that exactly within reasonable cost?
Copy what every other industrialized nation does that allows their people to live longer lives?
If Macau, Andorra, Japan, Singapore, San Marino, Hong Kong, Australia, Canada, France, Sweden, Switzerland, Guernsey, Israel, Iceland, Anguilla, Cayman Islands, Bermuda, New Zealand, Italy, Gibraltar, Monaco, Liechtenstein, Spain, Norway, Jersey, Greece, Austria, Faroe Islands, Malta, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Germany, Belgium, St Pierre & Miquelon, US Virgin Islands, United Kingdom, Finland, Jordan, Isle of Man, South Korea, Puerto Rico, Bosnia & Herzegovina, St Helena, Cyprus, Denmark, Ireland, Portugal and Wallis & Futuna can all have better life expectancies yet still pay less in private and public costs than the US, I'd suspect there's some sort of formula other governments have happened upon and it might be something that 49 other countries might share the information on.
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And WTF is "society"? Central Gov't Control? If so how has the U.S. Gov't EVER stepped in and "corrected things" when it come to a multi-Trillion $ free enterprise similar to health care? Where's that track record?
Society is you, me and the government. Government is the tool for the population to protect itself and enrich itself. Many politicians have decided the best way for them to steal money from you is to tell you that government isn't something you can influence and isn't something to be trusted. Or, that it is the problem. It's kind of funny that Reagan could have been so literal when he said government is the problem while he gutted the nation and sold it all off on wholesale.
As far as massive government programs that have been run successfully, you might try looking into the second largest employer by number of employees. Once you find that out, find out who the largest employer is by number of employees. Let me know which one you think is run better and if there are any peopleof_________.com sites about it.
Copy what every other industrialized nation does that allows their people to live longer lives? (list of countries} can all have better life expectancies yet still pay less in private and public costs than the US, I'd suspect there's some sort of formula other governments have happened upon and it might be something that 49 other countries might share the information on.
… Government is the tool for the population to protect itself and enrich itself. …
As far as massive government programs that have been run successfully, you might try looking into the second largest employer by number of employees. Once you find that out, find out who the largest employer is by number of employees. Let me know which one you think is run better and if there are any peopleof_________.com sites about it.
"Formula that other governments have happened upon?" First, you say this as if this list, and this sole fact, means gov’t is the largest contributing factor in these countries having longer life expectancies than U.S. What about climate, diet, lifestyle, smoking, drinking, obesity, able-bodied people on welfare, meth/cocaine/heroin addiction, infant mortality, etc etc etc due to all of the above and the countless other individual choices that this and other countries have to respond to? Second, and most important to your point, have these countries shared this invaluable info with the US and how, exactly, is it included in the bills being proposed. If not, your Gov’t has let you down.
Gov’t is the “tool” for neither. It does not give me anything, nor do I expect anything, to protect me (other than a common defense) nor enrich me. It provides the framework for the individual to do these things.
You have something to say about how well some huge gov’t program is run then say it and support it. I’m not going to run off on some kind of research project.
Last edited by SonOfSmeagol; 11-07-2009 at 08:37 PM.
...infant mortality, etc etc etc due to all of the above and the countless other individual choices that this and other countries have to respond to?
Gov’t is the “tool” for neither. They do not give me anything, nor do I expect anything, to protect me (other than a common defense) nor enrich me. They provide the framework for the individual to do these things.
First, I didn't consider infant mortality an "individual choice."
Second, if you really think the government doesn't give you ANYTHING other than a "common defense", than without wanting to be insulting, you are delusional!
First, I didn't consider infant mortality an "individual choice."
Second, if you really think the government doesn't give you ANYTHING other than a "common defense", than without wanting to be insulting, you are delusional!
OK I’ll back off on the infant mortality thing, except to say that maybe some mothers should reconsider, or at least wait on, becoming mothers and/or stop having babies they cannot support, and to that end I totally support family planning.
As a big time taxpayer maybe you can help me with what exactly the gov’t “gives” me that I don’t pay dearly for.
OK I’ll back off on the infant mortality thing, except to say that maybe some mothers should reconsider, or at least wait on, becoming mothers and/or stop having babies they cannot support, and to that end I totally support family planning.
As a big time taxpayer maybe you can help me with what exactly the gov’t “gives” me that I don’t pay dearly for.
I don't think the baby has a choice. Sure, many mothers do not get the proper prenatal care they need; either due to systemic or individual problems.
I am sure you would think some of these agencies are unnecessary, but all of them?
And that is only the federal agencies, not the local agencies that are also supported by your tax dollars, like your "common defense."
I don't think the baby has a choice. Sure, many mothers do not get the proper prenatal care they need; either due to systemic or individual problems.
You pay for your "common defense." So, when you say "give" are you asking me what you get for free or what you receive for your taxes? http://www.wikinvest.com/concept/Gov...atory_Agencies
I am sure you would think some of these agencies are unnecessary, but all of them?
And that is only the federal agencies, not the local agencies that are also supported by your tax dollars, like your "common defense."
I didn’t say the baby did – as I said the mother does. So, hypothetically, maybe the unemployed mother who cannot afford the children she has and doesn’t know how to take care of, should avoid having more children she cannot support. It is an individual decision (although it would seem to me to be common sense), supported by systemic lack of education that does not clearly inform the individual that maybe it’s not the best thing to have more babies you cannot support.
What’s the point here? I pay so much in Fed, State, Local, Excise, Personal Property, Sales, Cap Gains taxes (many MANY 10s of thousands of dollars every year to the tune of 40-50% of my income) that I have an extremely hard time thinking I get anything for free my friend. That said, there is so much waste in gov’t it's not even funny.
What’s the point here? I pay so much in Fed, State, Local, Excise, Personal Property, Sales, Cap Gains taxes (many MANY 10s of thousands of dollars every year to the tune of 40-50% of my income) that I have an extremely hard time thinking I get anything for free my friend. That said, there is so much waste in gov’t it's not even funny.
I am not saying you get anything for free. Need a handout?
I am saying- you pay taxes, you get services for that. Can the government be more efficient? YES!!!!! Is our common defense the only necessary service provided? NO!!!!!!!!!
In the 20th century we have had a 90% tax rate. So, maybe the mid-30s isn't that bad.
It is a dark day for America. Working Americans who will have to work hard to stay out of jail and not get fined by the Government so we can subsidize the health care of those who do not work hard and produce. I used to be a citizen and an employee, now I am merely a worker.
It is a dark day for America. Working Americans who will have to work hard to stay out of jail and not get fined by the Government so we can subsidize the health care of those who do not work hard and produce. I used to be a citizen and an employee, now I am merely a worker.
Here's a guy who has no idea what he is talking about.
The shrillness of Pelosi is enough to make me sick 2000 pages of garbage that will be another government run fiasco. Spare me the dramatics from John Dingell who succeeded his father 55 years ago, like that parasite really know what its like to work in the real world Doesnt look too good in the Senate though but im sure Barry will pay them a visit
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Last edited by WRESTLINGFAN; 11-08-2009 at 10:33 AM.
Here's a guy who has no idea what he is talking about.
Keep drinking your kool aid. yeah yeah you'll post about all the heartbreak you have witnessed first hand. And how I am some uninformed rube. I have read it all before. The simple fact is that there are much much better ways to fix the broken health care system then to saddle ALL Americans with the costs. It is senseless to post arguments here because with many like yourself there is no reasoning. Only blind compliance to your anointed Government saviors. Do you really think Pelosi and Obama give a fuck about middle America. If you do you are a disillusioned creature.
Question for you. If with a Magic Wand they can save billions in Medicare fraud then why wait for this legislation to do it? It is a SCAM.
Keep drinking your kool aid. yeah yeah you'll post about all the heartbreak you have witnessed first hand. And how I am some uninformed rube. I have read it all before. The simple fact is that there are much much better ways to fix the broken health care system then to saddle ALL Americans with the costs. It is senseless to post arguments here because with many like yourself there is no reasoning. Only blind compliance to your anointed Government saviors. Do you really think Pelosi and Obama give a fuck about middle America. If you do you are a disillusioned creature.
Question for you. If with a Magic Wand they can save billions in Medicare fraud then why wait for this legislation to do it? It is a SCAM.
No, I'll just point out that you have no idea what the bill does. No one is going to jail if they don't get insurance. ALL Americans aren't saddled with the costs. The House bill taxes the wealthy. The Senate bill reduces the deduction for health care premiums which will only affect the most expensive health plans. And both plans reduce the deficit. And to answer your question, the biggest thing they are going to do is eliminate or drastically scale back Medicare Advantage, a program in which private insurers are paid to handle the care of seniors. It's turned out to be more expensive that traditional Medicare because of significantly higher administrative costs, essentially wasting money that goes straight into the insurers pockets. That's one of many things they are planning to do.
If that's too heart-wrenching I can tone down the emotion.
I'm not one of these wishy-washy mods that can't make decisions.
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Last edited by TheMojoPin; 11-08-2009 at 02:38 PM.
I'm not one of these wishy-washy mods that can't make decisions.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chicago
Posts: 46,617
The blood and oranage on the scene was horrifying.
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"It ain't like it used to be...but it'll do." << EAMUS CATULI >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad..."
It is a dark day for America. Working Americans who will have to work hard to stay out of jail and not get fined by the Government so we can subsidize the health care of those who do not work hard and produce. I used to be a citizen and an employee, now I am merely a worker.
I miss the good old days before socialist movements forced employers to pay livable wages and stop child labor.
Damn socialism, that is the problem with kids today, not enough black lung disease.
Location: my contribution to society is leaving snappy one liners on blogs over the interwebs
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Originally Posted by Serpico1103
I am not saying you get anything for free. Need a handout?
I am saying- you pay taxes, you get services for that. Can the government be more efficient? YES!!!!! Is our common defense the only necessary service provided? NO!!!!!!!!!
In the 20th century we have had a 90% tax rate. So, maybe the mid-30s isn't that bad.
It befuddles me how folks don't seem to want something back from tax put in. When it comes to matters like these.
It isn't that often the public has opportunities like this. They are few and far between.
Monies will come from other areas like stopping the war/wars. And reversing the damage that Bush put in.
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