Kill the Ground Zero Mosque

[scottinnj]

Holy Crap this is the most bigoted thing I have seen all year. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjGJPPRD3u0)



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[hanso]

You know that folks like that make up a huge voter block. And maybe a vast majority here?

[sailor]

from what i recall when this originally was voted on, and approved: it's not AT ground zero, but blocks away and it's also just creating a bigger space for a mosque that already exists downtown. very silly of people.

[Serpico1103]

If other religions have a church, synagogue, or whatever, there, than so should the Muslims. I can understand being against it, but that ad was aimed at the most simple minded bigot. "They" was used over and over again, who is "they"? "Kill" instead of stop or prevent?

Also, I just watched Rick Burn's doc on NYC, last disc was about the WTC attacks. When I saw the cross made of beams again, I realized that was a mistake. It made it seem like our country was endorsing a war based on religious beliefs. That it was a war of Christianity against Islam. It is a war of Islam fundamentalists against a free society, it should not be characterized as a religious war by us.

[booster11373]

I love that they use Christian imagery to deride the building of a religious monument

[newport king]

so am i alone in thinking its somewhat tacky to put a mosque there? i mean they did this in the name of the religion. i'm sure many family members don't want to see it there. :thumbdown:

[booster11373]

I

It is a war of Islam fundamentalists against a free society, it should not be characterized as a religious war by us.

agreed

[booster11373]

so am i alone in thinking its somewhat tacky to put a mosque there? i mean they did this in the name of the religion. i'm sure many family members don't want to see it there. :thumbdown:

If they did it in the name of religion then be offended that any religion is represented near by.

[newport king]

that being said, the ad itself is horrendous.

[booster11373]

that being said, the ad itself is horrendous.

I think its meant for the tea party crowd

[newport king]

i dont think any religious monument needs to be there. i DO think however putting a mosque there is somewhat of a slap in the face to victims families.

[Serpico1103]

so am i alone in thinking its somewhat tacky to put a mosque there? i mean they did this in the name of the religion. i'm sure many family members don't want to see it there. :thumbdown:


I think it is tacky to put any religious monument or place of worship there. But, if you put one, you should include all the major ones. Those people died because we live in a free society, to change that would dishonor their deaths.
Similar to burning the flag, you could say that is dishonoring the people who died fighting for the country. The argument is that they died so you had the freedom to burn the flag.

I believe the mosque will be 2 blocks from the WTC site. How far away can Muslims worship? It is all about Republicans trying to strike fear into people.

[StanUpshaw]

i dont think any religious monument needs to be there. i DO think however putting a mosque there is somewhat of a slap in the face to victims families.

Anti-abortion terrorists have killed in the name of their god, why aren't the victims' families offended that the funerals are held in churches?

[SatCam]

Holy Crap this is the most bigoted thing I have seen all year.

http://snarkerati.com/movie-news/files/2009/07/mel-gibson.jpg

[newport king]

Anti-abortion terrorists have killed in the name of their god, why aren't the victims' families offended that the funerals are held in churches?

that analogy sucks a dick.

[Death Metal Moe]

Who, exactly is the "they" the announcer so ominously keeps referring to?

[newport king]

Who, exactly is the "they" the announcer so ominously keeps referring to?

you know..."them"

[Serpico1103]

Who, exactly is the "they" the announcer so ominously keeps referring to?

Non-WASPs.
Are you one of them?!?

[Death Metal Moe]

Non-WASPs.
Are you one of them?!?

I guess I am one of "them." Uh oh, I just heard a knock at my door. Brb...

[TripleSkeet]

Im not endorsing that ad. Its blatantly pandering to idiots. But that being said, is it REALLY fucking necessary to put this mosque there? Really??? I mean, it reeks of trying to be so politically correct that it insults the families of the victims so as not to offend muslims.

Like it or not, muslims took down the towers. Doesnt matter if they are muslim extremists. They are still muslims and used their religion as an excuse. New Yorks a pretty big place, cant they just not put a mosque anywhere near there? Its not the same as putting a church because Christians didnt take down the towers. Its not about respecting religion, its about showing a little bit of respect to the families of the people that died there.

If a christian radical blew up an abortion clinic and killed 50 people, Id feel the exact same way if they decided to build a church next to the memorial site.

[Serpico1103]

Im not endorsing that ad. Its blatantly pandering to idiots. But that being said, is it REALLY fucking necessary to put this mosque there? Really??? I mean, it reeks of trying to be so politically correct that it insults the families of the victims so as not to offend muslims.

Like it or not, muslims took down the towers. Doesnt matter if they are muslim extremists. They are still muslims and used their religion as an excuse. New Yorks a pretty big place, cant they just not put a mosque anywhere near there? Its not the same as putting a church because Christians didnt take down the towers. Its not about respecting religion, its about showing a little bit of respect to the families of the people that died there.

If a christian radical blew up an abortion clinic and killed 50 people, Id feel the exact same way if they decided to build a church next to the memorial site.

I don't think it needs to be there (unless the government pays to build other houses of worship). The question is whether the government should regulate the respect you feel this violates. Will I donate to the mosque? No. Can people protest it? Sure. Should the government block it? NO!

There is already a mosque nearby, this mosque is not being built on the site, it is 2 blocks away, dozens of Muslims were also victims of the attacks.

[StanUpshaw]

Im not endorsing that ad. Its blatantly pandering to idiots. But that being said, is it REALLY fucking necessary to put this mosque there? Really??? I mean, it reeks of trying to be so politically correct that it insults the families of the victims so as not to offend muslims.

Like it or not, muslims took down the towers. Doesnt matter if they are muslim extremists. They are still muslims and used their religion as an excuse. New Yorks a pretty big place, cant they just not put a mosque anywhere near there? Its not the same as putting a church because Christians didnt take down the towers. Its not about respecting religion, its about showing a little bit of respect to the families of the people that died there.

If a christian radical blew up an abortion clinic and killed 50 people, Id feel the exact same way if they decided to build a church next to the memorial site.

Compromising our nation's founding principles is not something we should take lightly. The myopia that afflicts a grieving family is understandable, but we must take a step back and realize that no matter how emotional the issue, trampling on a certain group's liberty can not be justified.

[newport king]

dozens of Muslims were also victims of the attacks.

no way, everybody knows they all called out sick to work that day. either them or the jews, i cant remember.

[Serpico1103]

no way, everybody knows they all called out sick to work that day. either them or the jews, i cant remember.

I wonder if a Muslim guy did coincidentally called in sick that day, are his co-workers still keeping a watchful eye on him?

[newport king]

does anyone know the whereabouts of death metal mohammed on 9/11???? i don't remember seeing him posting on here...interesting.

[newport king]

just noticed his join date was september of 01...VERRRRRY INTERESTING.

[Death Metal Moe]

Oh shut up. :king:

[KnoxHarrington]

This story has totally gotten the rubes all worked up. From the way that Fox News and the garbage right-wing press is spinning this, you'd think the mosque will be built right on top of the WTC site and be called "Death To America Jihad Forever Mosque."

I wonder how many of these idiots all worked up over this story go to megachurches that build expansions without zoning approval and pay absolutely no property tax on buildings worth millions of dollars, and would bitch about freedom of religion being violated if either was called into question.

[Pitdoc]

so am i alone in thinking its somewhat tacky to put a mosque there? i mean they did this in the name of the religion. i'm sure many family members don't want to see it there. :thumbdown:

The Ku Klux Klan is a Christian organization . So, by your logic, since the Ku Klux Klan have killed in the spirit of Christian temperance, all Christian churches in the US should be torn down.

The sad part is, a lot of rubes buy this shit . But then, they buy religion as well...

[Kevin]

The Ku Klux Klan is a Christian organization . So, by your logic, since the Ku Klux Klan have killed in the spirit of Christian temperance, all Christian churches in the US should be torn down.

The sad part is, a lot of rubes buy this shit . But then, they buy religion as well...



Weren't the Nazi's master race supposed to be white christian folks?

And i guarentee most of these reps behind it take Saudi Oil money.

[spoon]

Religion PERIOD is a joke. Every one of them. Extremist helped cause this tragedy, now extremist are helping make this a bigger story than is warrants. You were all BORN into your religion (most at least), stop acting like that fact alone means anyone got it right.

[StanUpshaw]

Religion PERIOD is a joke. Every one of them. Extremist helped cause this tragedy, not extremist are helping make this a bigger story than is warrants. You were all BORN into your religion (most at least), stop acting like that fact alone means anyone got it right.

Thanks for the analysis, ninth grade.

[Kevin]

Thanks for the analysis, ninth grade.



9th grade? really?

What he said made alot of sense.

Maybe if he said Dave was God, you would agree.

[spoon]

Thanks for the analysis, ninth grade.

Sure thing preschool.

[Crispy123]

Religion PERIOD is a joke. Every one of them. Extremist helped cause this tragedy, now extremist are helping make this a bigger story than is warrants. You were all BORN into your religion (most at least), stop acting like that fact alone means anyone got it right.

Religion has done more good than bad, it is the original "social networking". There would be no America as we know it without religous extremists.

[spoon]

9th grade? really?

What he said made alot of sense.

Maybe if he said Dave was God, you would agree.

No, no no, he's right. Back in ole nib high I learned all about religion being a fraud and it's use by people around the world to get what they want by any false means necessary.

[spoon]

Religion has done more good than bad, it is the original "social networking". There would be no America as we know it without religous extremists.

BULLSHIT

[Crispy123]

you are so cynical. I will pray for you.

[Kevin]

Religion has done more good than bad, it is the original "social networking". There would be no America as we know it without religous extremists.



Really?

99.99999999% of all the wars in history have been religious based.

Most of our tech and medical short comings are religious based.

Most of the hatred in the world is religious based.

Has it done some good? sure..

But the bad far out weigh the good.

[StanUpshaw]

Really?

99.99999999% of all the wars in history have been religious based.

Most of our tech and medical short comings are religious based.

Most of the hatred in the world is religious based.

Has it done some good? sure..

But the bad far out weigh the good.

So I'm sure you'll have some examples of nonreligious societies and how well they prospered compared to their religion-afflicted counterparts?

[spoon]

Not only is religion a crutch for society, it's a tool for the manipulative. You have been deceived crispy, pray for someone else.

[Crispy123]

Really?

99.99999999% of all the wars in history have been religious based.

Most of our tech and medical short comings are religious based.

Most of the hatred in the world is religious based.

Has it done some good? sure..

But the bad far out weigh the good.

wrong and wrong. Religion has given us literacy and education. The civilized world exists because tribes of people came together through religion. The good far outnumbers the bad.

[StanUpshaw]

wrong and wrong. Religion has given us literacy and education. The civilized world exists because tribes of people came together through religion. The good far outnumbers the bad.

So I'm sure you'll have some examples of nonreligious societies and how poorly they fared compared to their religious counterparts?

[Kevin]

So I'm sure you'll have some examples of nonreligious societies and how well they prospered compared to their religion-afflicted counterparts?



They were never allowed to because of the "loving" Religious folk.

They would find them and burn them alive.

[spoon]

So I'm sure you'll have some examples of nonreligious societies and how well they prospered compared to their religion-afflicted counterparts?

Oh I don't know, perhaps this isn't even a valid question bc no society is wholly one religion. In fact, non-religious is the third biggest sect of people in the world.

Best I can find bc now it's estimated to be at 20-22%. (http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html)

[Crispy123]

So I'm sure you'll have some examples of nonreligious societies and how poorly they fared compared to their religious counterparts?

Oh you're sure are you?

[StanUpshaw]

perhaps this isn't even a valid question

See, NOW you're putting some thought into this.

[Serpico1103]

So I'm sure you'll have some examples of nonreligious societies and how well they prospered compared to their religion-afflicted counterparts?

So I'm sure you'll have some examples of nonreligious societies and how poorly they fared compared to their religious counterparts?

Facts? We are talking religion here. Blind faith is the only way to support an argument.

[Crispy123]

Oh I don't know, perhaps this isn't even a valid question bc no society is wholly one religion. In fact, non-religious is the third biggest sect of people in the world.

Best I can find bc now it's estimated to be at 20-22%. (http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html)

Thats the point. No matter who or what is worshiped people come up with a religion, it has been a survival mechanism through history. Communism tried to do away with religion and that's worked out swell.

[spoon]

Facts? We are talking religion here. Blind faith is the only way to support an argument.

Ha! Lest you forget, many claim to talk to God and hear him back. Even our last president if you recall.

Most religions in theory are fine if you need a code of ethics to guide you in order to be a good person. However, once you introduce man to the equation it changes everything.

[spoon]

Thats the point. No matter who or what is worshiped people come up with a religion, it has been a survival mechanism through history. Communism tried to do away with religion and that's worked out swell.

Last I looked, China is about to take over the known world. Are you so sure? Japan hasn't had too much trouble and they are a pretty non-religious based society that is much older than ours and isn't communistic as well.

[Crispy123]

Last I looked, China is about to take over the known world. Are you so sure? Japan hasn't had too much trouble and they are a pretty non-religious based society that is much older than ours and isn't communistic as well.

Why don't you check out numbers 5 and 6 on the list that you linked to about 15 minutes ago.

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

[spoon]

Why don't you check out numbers 5 and 6 on the list that you linked to about 15 minutes ago.

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

# Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
# Buddhism: 376 million

So first off, let's figure out the percentage of the population of China ALONE that equates to? Let alone adding Korea, Japan and so many more in the Eastern and the Western world of course.

Now let's also factor in this well known FACT! "However, these estimates are based on people with an association with a temple, rather than the number of people truly following the religion.[132] Professor Robert Kisala (Nanzan University) suggests that only 30 percent of the population identify themselves as belonging to a religion."

[Kevin]

Why don't you check out numbers 5 and 6 on the list that you linked to about 15 minutes ago.

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html



You are the BDC of religion

[Crispy123]

# Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
# Buddhism: 376 million

So first off, let's figure out the percentage of the population of China ALONE that equates to? Let alone adding Korea, Japan and so many more in the Eastern and the Western world of course.

Now let's also factor in this well known FACT! "However, these estimates are based on people with an association with a temple, rather than the number of people truly following the religion.[132] Professor Robert Kisala (Nanzan University) suggests that only 30 percent of the population identify themselves as belonging to a religion."

Im confused are you arguing with me or yourself?

[Crispy123]

You are the BDC of religion

thanks!!!:drunk::thumbup::smile:

[hanso]

wrong and wrong. Religion has given us literacy and education. The civilized world exists because tribes of people came together through religion. The good far outnumbers the bad.

christ was illiterate

[spoon]

christ was illiterate

all things are possible through him

[Kevin]

all things are possible through him



Don't forget.

If english was good enough for Jesus then it should be good enough for anyone.

[hanso]

all things are possible through him

that's the literal interpretation

[hanso]

Workers at the World Trade Center site are excavating a 32ft-long ship (9.8m) hull believed to have been buried in the 18th Century.

http://smirkingchimp.com/news/30115/18th-century-ship-found-at-trade-center-site

museums over mosques call FNC fast.

[spoon]

Workers at the World Trade Center site are excavating a 32ft-long ship (9.8m) hull believed to have been buried in the 18th Century.

http://smirkingchimp.com/news/30115/18th-century-ship-found-at-trade-center-site

museums over mosques call FNC fast.

t minus 15 for a conspiracy theory to the likes of a Dan Brown novel

[SatCam]

Religion has done more good than bad, it is the original "social networking".

If youre trying to imply that ive scored thanks to religion, i say its quite the opposite. the church is the biggest cock block of all time

[StanUpshaw]

If youre trying to imply that ive scored thanks to religion, i say its quite the opposite. the church is the biggest cock block of all time

Sure it's a cock block...for those who desire adults of the opposite sex.

[scottinnj]

I think its meant for the tea party crowd

I think so too, and that is sad. I agree on so many things that the Tea Party people do, but I just can't commit to joining the club. I'm a conservative, a Christian Fundamentalist and generally vote Republican. A lot of you know I voted for Obama, but now I regret it based on the skyrocketing debt.
The Tea Party came to the Big Party too late. Our last president's second term was a disaster of deficit spending and the squandering of resources in Iraq and Afghanistan. Where was the Tea Party then? Everything the Tea Party rails against was done by W for four years without a peep from them.

I am so happy I'm an independent now. This GOP/Democratic system is not for me.

But to go back to the point of this thread, I'm soooo disappointed that in the 21rst century of the United States we still have to put up with junk like this.

[spoon]

If youre trying to imply that ive scored thanks to religion, i say its quite the opposite. the church is the biggest cock block of all time

your face is a cock block

:wink:

[Serpico1103]

your face is a cock block

:wink:

I heard it let every cock in.

[scottinnj]

The Ku Klux Klan is a Christian organization.
No it's not. Not really. It got it's grip in the South through churches because the Klan leaders blackmailed the preachers:
Either endorse the Klan from the pulpit which would bring the church's attendance levels way up and make the collection plate full or-
Follow the Word of God to the letter and have the Klan burn down the church.
Sadly, too many preachers were weak and chose the former instead of realizing the American Church would never be able to recover from the poison being fed to it.

Weren't the Nazi's master race supposed to be white christian folks?

No, Hitler made up a religion based on the Nordic gods & social Darwinism to convince the Germans to give up Christianity in favor of being the master race able to decide the fate of those they felt were inferior to them.

[hanso]

Did anyone get the obsession dvd around the last election? They sent a few or more here. This reminds me of that. Maybe its by the same folks. Christian Fundamentalists?

[Kevin]

No it's not. Not really. It got it's grip in the South through churches because the Klan leaders blackmailed the preachers:
Either endorse the Klan from the pulpit which would bring the church's attendance levels way up and make the collection plate full or-
Follow the Word of God to the letter and have the Klan burn down the church.
Sadly, too many preachers were weak and chose the former instead of realizing the American Church would never be able to recover from the poison being fed to it.



No, Hitler made up a religion based on the Nordic gods & social Darwinism to convince the Germans to give up Christianity in favor of being the master race able to decide the fate of those they felt were inferior to them.



Sounds like just about every religion..

[hanso]

Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West

These were mass mailed before the election.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsession_(documentary)

Links not working google Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West for wiki link.

[scottinnj]

Did anyone get the obsession dvd around the last election? They sent a few or more here. This reminds me of that. Maybe its by the same folks. Christian Fundamentalists?

No. Got a link to it or can you tell us what it is? I honestly don't know anything about it.

Edit: or maybe I could just look down two more thread entries to see your link. Thanks.

[StanUpshaw]

Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West

These were mass mailed before the election.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsession_(documentary)

Links not working google Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West for wiki link.

One is put out by the National Republican Trust Political Action Group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Republican_Trust_Political_Action_Group) and the other is put out by The Clarion Fund (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarion_Fund). They seem to be more or less identical ideologically, but not apparently connected otherwise.

[Serpico1103]

http://www.kkk.com/

"Welcome to the Ku Klux Klan!

The Knights Party, USA

Bringing a Message of Hope and Deliverance to White Christian America! A Message of Love NOT Hate!"

[scottinnj]

Sounds like just about every religion..

There is a difference. I used to believe for a while the "all paths lead to God" mantra. But that can't be, because of the big differences each religion has with the other. Heck, the Eastern religions don't even believe in one god, Hindus believe in a bunch and Buddhists believe in no god.

Judaism believes in a God who bases His decision on you being granted into Paradise based on works, and Islam believes that even if you keep the commandments of the Koran quite strictly, Allah may still decide to place you in Hell after you die.

Christianity believes that God knows that no matter what we do we will never be good enough to stand before Him because He is Holy and cannot allow sin to be in His presence. Therefore He sent His Son Jesus to live a perfect life then die in our place. That sacrifice, if we accept it for ourselves is the salvation God has for us.

So while mankind experiences similar struggles with the practice of his & her's individual faith in a process we call religion, the core beliefs of each faith are radically different from each other.

[scottinnj]

http://www.kkk.com/

"Welcome to the Ku Klux Klan!

The Knights Party, USA

Bringing a Message of Hope and Deliverance to White Christian America! A Message of Love NOT Hate!"

Yep, my point exactly. Once the Klan got into the American Church these lies of a White Christian Nation set root and spread. I don't think we will ever stop paying for the sin of allowing racism in for personal gain or security for the church.

[hanso]

There are many Christian faiths as well. Some even goes as far to baptize the bodies of dead corpses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_for_the_dead

[hanso]

Where is king hippo's band aid?


Synod of Hippo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod_of_Hippo

Hippo Regius
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippo_Regius

[booster11373]

Judaism believes in a God who bases His decision on you being granted into Paradise based on works



Jews follow the old testament and their is no mention of a heavenly afterlife in the OT. Jesus was the first to do so in the NT.

Furthermore no ones gets to heaven until Jesus comes back so the concept of heaven is completely misused by everyone except West boro bc

[Death Metal Moe]

Religion is a plague on society and a comfortable retreat for the weak minded. It is a system we're trying to shake left over from a time when we put divine labels on things we didn't understand, like solar eclipses and regular weather patterns. We will eventually progress past religion but not in our lifetime, unfortunately.

The only thing I want is for religion to be out of my life completley, but alas that will never be. Too many people are convinced their "man in the sky" story is the "true" one so they'll try to impose their beliefs on me. And since religion is the origin of a lot of the awful things we do to each other, it will never fully be out of my life.

[StanUpshaw]

That's precisely what a sleeper agent would say. Get him, boys!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I would have preferred behead the mosque

In all seriousness this might shock some of you but they have every right to build that mosque.

I would love for a pork store to open up next door

[booster11373]

Feudalism served a purpose in the past and we moved on

[Death Metal Moe]

Feudalism served a purpose in the past and we moved on

I don't care what "modern" doctors say. I've been using blood letting to rid myself of evil spirits for decades like my parents and their parents, and I'll be DAMNED if some city slicker is gonna tell me otherwise!

[StanUpshaw]

I don't care what "modern" doctors say. I've been using blood letting to rid myself of evil spirits for decades like my parents and their parents, and I'll be DAMNED if some city slicker is gonna tell me otherwise!

Great. Some profound stuff there.

Now what is your point?

[booster11373]

Great. Some profound stuff there.

Now what is your point?

If religion had a point like some suggest that it was used to explain the unexplainable or served as a social network (thats just silly people were social before religions were codified) thats fine but we do things better know and the only reason that religion in its current form even exists is that people indoctrinate their children before children develop the critical thinking skills to figure out that its bullshit

[StanUpshaw]

Yes, we've covered that. Again and again.

But concerning the topic at hand, what is the point? How are you suggesting that your worldview be applied to society?

[booster11373]

Yes, we've covered that. Again and again.

But concerning the topic at hand, what is the point? How are you suggesting that your worldview be applied to society?

http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c114612/images/2009/atheistbustshirts.jpg

[Brad_Rush]

If religion had a point like some suggest that it was used to explain the unexplainable or served as a social network (thats just silly people were social before religions were codified) thats fine but we do things better know and the only reason that religion in its current form even exists is that people indoctrinate their children before children develop the critical thinking skills to figure out that its bullshit

That's just about as arrogant a viewpoint as that of the religious extremists!

[StanUpshaw]

http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c114612/images/2009/atheistbustshirts.jpg

What does that have to do with the topic at hand?

[Death Metal Moe]

What does that have to do with the topic at hand?

It's the very point of the topic at hand.

[StanUpshaw]

It's the very point of the topic at hand.

So your beliefs should trump the beliefs of others? Is that what we're getting at here?

You think religion is bad, so that justifies state sponsored discrimination of these worshipers?

I'd rather not guess what you're saying, but you're not being very forthcoming.

[Death Metal Moe]

I and others have been extremely forthcoming. Perhaps you aren't listening, or don't choose to.

[StanUpshaw]

I and others have been extremely forthcoming. Perhaps you aren't listening, or don't choose to.
Who, exactly is the "they" the announcer so ominously keeps referring to?

I guess I am one of "them." Uh oh, I just heard a knock at my door. Brb...

Oh shut up. :king:

Religion is a plague on society and a comfortable retreat for the weak minded. It is a system we're trying to shake left over from a time when we put divine labels on things we didn't understand, like solar eclipses and regular weather patterns. We will eventually progress past religion but not in our lifetime, unfortunately.

The only thing I want is for religion to be out of my life completley, but alas that will never be. Too many people are convinced their "man in the sky" story is the "true" one so they'll try to impose their beliefs on me. And since religion is the origin of a lot of the awful things we do to each other, it will never fully be out of my life.

I don't care what "modern" doctors say. I've been using blood letting to rid myself of evil spirits for decades like my parents and their parents, and I'll be DAMNED if some city slicker is gonna tell me otherwise!

It's the very point of the topic at hand.


That is what you've said in this thread. In this thread about what should be done regarding the "Ground Zero Mosque." You have been far from explicit regarding the topic at hand. You and others have given something of a preamble, but I haven't seen anyone ballsy enough to state their conclusions.

[A.J.]

I say we put a mosque in every building there is. See if Al-Qa'ida ties to blow them up THEN!

[StanUpshaw]

I say we put a mosque in every building there is. See if Al-Qa'ida ties to blow them up THEN!

I hope you're being sarcastic. (http://news.google.com/news/search?aq=f&pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=mosque+bombing)

[A.J.]

I hope you're being sarcastic. (http://news.google.com/news/search?aq=f&pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=mosque+bombing)

http://www.gifbin.com/bin/1232550426_worf%20face%20palm.gif

[booster11373]

That's just about as arrogant a viewpoint as that of the religious extremists!

How so?

[booster11373]

So your beliefs should trump the beliefs of others? Is that what we're getting at here?

You think religion is bad, so that justifies state sponsored discrimination of these worshipers?

I'd rather not guess what you're saying, but you're not being very forthcoming.

No atheist beliefs ever trump others, Only religious beliefs seem to want to spread them themselves around

Live and let live is the concept but believers dont seem to get that

[Death Metal Moe]

That is what you've said in this thread. In this thread about what should be done regarding the "Ground Zero Mosque." You have been far from explicit regarding the topic at hand. You and others have given something of a preamble, but I haven't seen anyone ballsy enough to state their conclusions.

But I wanted to see how long you'd answer me after I just put up short responses to your questions like you did. See? I can give the illusion of being intellectual too.

All religions are equally worthless, put one of every religious building in the new WTC, who cares. I won't be visiting any of them. The fake outrage of this one is extremely amusing though.

[sailor]

http://www.gifbin.com/bin/1232550426_worf%20face%20palm.gif

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_I2uQkGxIykM/S5My7WQAG8I/AAAAAAAAJbU/kwlvj0J4GBE/s400/facepalm+fyd.png

[hanso]

I'd like to know if there were plans for the mosque before 9/11. Or if it is just a remodeling/moving of one already there/near by etc..


The way Fox news is all over this. I would not doubt if that were the case.

[keithy_19]

I'm conflicted by this. As someone who was personally affected by the events of that day, I don't want the mosque to be built. To me it feels like opening a Vietnamese museum right next to the Vietnam War memorial.

Then there is the capitalist in me who says, if they have the money let them do what they want.

And then there's the part of me that thinks that I'm being a racist thinking that a building where people who practice Islam will go is somehow creating a problem. Most Muslims are not militant thugs like those who carry out attacks, just like most Christians aren't like those Westboro Baptist church idiots.

And maybe having a mosque there would actually show a form of unity. Of saying, sorry about those assholes who did this. This is how real, true, good Muslims worship.

It's just a whole lot of conflict with me. I haven't been following the story that closely, so I may be missing out on a lot of information. If so, I'm sorry.

[Death Metal Moe]

Islam is no more or less worthless than all the other worthless religions. They all preach "peace and understanding" but practice something else.

Let them build it.

[Barnaby Jones]

I'm conflicted by this. As someone who was personally affected by the events of that day, I don't want the mosque to be built. To me it feels like opening a Vietnamese museum right next to the Vietnam War memorial.

It's not thing like that! It's not "at ground zero" or "right next to ground zero!" It's blocks away! It's like this place is filled with nothing but country rubes who don't know what a city block is!

[Death Metal Moe]

It's simple:

If you don't want the mosque built, then you blame all Muslims for what happened on 9/11 and you're a bigot and a racist.

Then, in turn, everyone else can blame you for all the bad things people did in your religion's name. Care to weigh the various religion's negatives over the entire history of man?

[spoon]

It's not thing like that! It's not "at ground zero" or "right next to ground zero!" It's blocks away! It's like this place is filled with nothing but country rubes who don't know what a city block is!

It's where Sally Sue has her lemonade stand on one corner, our ole fishing hole just off the other and ma and pa Cletus sipping sweet tea on the porch keeping a watchful eye on the neighborhood for undesirables. Right?

[Death Metal Moe]

It's where Sally Sue has her lemonade stand on one corner, our ole fishing hole just off the other and ma and pa Cletus sipping sweet tea on the porch keeping a watchful eye on the neighborhood for undesirables. Right?

That sounds charming! Maybe I was wrong about NYC.

[Death Metal Moe]

It's not thing like that! It's not "at ground zero" or "right next to ground zero!" It's blocks away! It's like this place is filled with nothing but country rubes who don't know what a city block is!

Shhh! No need to bring the truth into this. The inflammatory rhetoric was at a fever pitch! SCARE TACTICS! MUSLIMS!!! BOO!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kevin]

It's where Sally Sue has her lemonade stand on one corner, our ole fishing hole just off the other and ma and pa Cletus sipping sweet tea on the porch keeping a watchful eye on the neighborhood for undesirables. Right?



With his trusty shotgun on one side and his loving dog duke on the other.

[Death Metal Moe]

With his trusty shotgun on one side and his loving dog duke on the other.

He keeps a big stick on the porch too with the initials N.B.G. scratched on one end. I wonder what that means...

[Kevin]

Who knew religon would be the topic that would get Moe and Spoon on the same side!

Maybe it DOES unite!

[spoon]

Great. Some profound stuff there.

Now what is your point?

Do you ever make a point outside of your desire to blow Eastside Dave? I love your tact of constantly acting as if you're on top of this discussion and everything in question here and have yet to post a single thing outside of a simply copy/paste on the video from wikipedia. Let's look shall we? Since you seem to be fond of such a tactic.

[spoon]

Anti-abortion terrorists have killed in the name of their god, why aren't the victims' families offended that the funerals are held in churches?

Compromising our nation's founding principles is not something we should take lightly. The myopia that afflicts a grieving family is understandable, but we must take a step back and realize that no matter how emotional the issue, trampling on a certain group's liberty can not be justified.

Thanks for the analysis, ninth grade.

So I'm sure you'll have some examples of nonreligious societies and how well they prospered compared to their religion-afflicted counterparts?

So I'm sure you'll have some examples of nonreligious societies and how poorly they fared compared to their religious counterparts?

See, NOW you're putting some thought into this.

Sure it's a cock block...for those who desire adults of the opposite sex.

One is put out by the National Republican Trust Political Action Group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Republican_Trust_Political_Action_Group) and the other is put out by The Clarion Fund (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarion_Fund). They seem to be more or less identical ideologically, but not apparently connected otherwise.

That's precisely what a sleeper agent would say. Get him, boys!

Great. Some profound stuff there.

Now what is your point?

Yes, we've covered that. Again and again.

But concerning the topic at hand, what is the point? How are you suggesting that your worldview be applied to society?

What does that have to do with the topic at hand?

So your beliefs should trump the beliefs of others? Is that what we're getting at here?

You think religion is bad, so that justifies state sponsored discrimination of these worshipers?

I'd rather not guess what you're saying, but you're not being very forthcoming.

That is what you've said in this thread. In this thread about what should be done regarding the "Ground Zero Mosque." You have been far from explicit regarding the topic at hand. You and others have given something of a preamble, but I haven't seen anyone ballsy enough to state their conclusions.

I hope you're being sarcastic. (http://news.google.com/news/search?aq=f&pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=mosque+bombing)


GOD, I surely hope I didn't miss any of his deep and profound thoughts! Basically you're just a dick all hard up for a lost ginger radio host. That's all you bring to the table, but by all means, continue saying nothing and acting like you have.

[Kevin]

GOD, I surely hope I didn't miss any of his deep and profound thoughts! Basically you're just a dick all hard up for a lost ginger radio host. That's all you bring to the table, but by all means, continue saying nothing and acting like you have.



He has a great career ahead of him in Fox News or as the Gov of Alaska.

[Dude!]

Do you ever make a point outside of your desire to blow Eastside Dave? I love your tact of constantly acting as if you're on top of this discussion and everything in question here and have yet to post a single thing outside of a simply copy/paste on the video from wikipedia. Let's look shall we? Since you seem to be fond of such a tactic.

she's an idiot
don't even bother

[spoon]

I'm surely seeing the proof. :blink:

[StanUpshaw]

I'm not sure what you're looking for. As you just showed, I stated my point in my second post: "Compromising our nation's founding principles is not something we should take lightly. The myopia that afflicts a grieving family is understandable, but we must take a step back and realize that no matter how emotional the issue, trampling on a certain group's liberty can not be justified."

I've been hoping that someone was willing to debate the risks and benefits of the notion of religious freedom, but so far all I've seen is an obvious, juvenile critique of faith.

[spoon]

I'm not sure what you're looking for. As you just showed, I stated my point in my second post: "Compromising our nation's founding principles is not something we should take lightly. The myopia that afflicts a grieving family is understandable, but we must take a step back and realize that no matter how emotional the issue, trampling on a certain group's liberty can not be justified."

I've been hoping that someone was willing to debate the risks and benefits of the notion of religious freedom, but so far all I've seen is an obvious, juvenile critique of faith.

So you can't see or read I guess. Pretty much everyone posted their feelings on the topic at hand plenty, whether you agree or not. Most in fact did agree that it's a non-issue, even the first post by scott stated the video and cause is a joke. The simple fact that you think you were looking for debate, not being a caustic douche on every level is simply comical. Not to mention it continues as well, with your last statement. You speak this way bc it seemingly hits deep with you, since I don't remember this being posted "to debate the risks and benefits of the notion of religious freedom". We all know, you were being anything but juvenile in your retorts right?

[StanUpshaw]

Now that you mention it, I guess the pedophile joke was a touch childish.

[booster11373]

I've been hoping that someone was willing to debate the risks and benefits of the notion of religious freedom, but so far all I've seen is an obvious, juvenile critique of faith.

I had a response to this but it would do you better if you figured it out for yourself

[spoon]

I had a response to this but it would do you better if you figured it out for yourself

:lol:

[Crispy123]

I'm conflicted by this. As someone who was personally affected by the events of that day, I don't want the mosque to be built. To me it feels like opening a Vietnamese museum right next to the Vietnam War memorial.

Then there is the capitalist in me who says, if they have the money let them do what they want.

And then there's the part of me that thinks that I'm being a racist thinking that a building where people who practice Islam will go is somehow creating a problem. Most Muslims are not militant thugs like those who carry out attacks, just like most Christians aren't like those Westboro Baptist church idiots.

And maybe having a mosque there would actually show a form of unity. Of saying, sorry about those assholes who did this. This is how real, true, good Muslims worship.

It's just a whole lot of conflict with me. I haven't been following the story that closely, so I may be missing out on a lot of information. If so, I'm sorry.

Have you ever been to Pearl Harbour? If you go and check out the memorial you see the resting place for many Americans and the feelings of what that attack must have felt like are real and moving. At the same time Hawaii is a big vacation spot for many Asians and its hard to not get angry at the sight of them as irrational as it is.

[Brad_Rush]

How so?

You state that their beliefs are groundless and outdated simply because you don't understand them or assume that you do. It is the same thing as a religious person writing off someone who does not believe as they do to be an infidel or heathen.

[keithy_19]

It's not thing like that! It's not "at ground zero" or "right next to ground zero!" It's blocks away! It's like this place is filled with nothing but country rubes who don't know what a city block is!

I really hope you caught the tone of what I was saying. How, upon my original statement I realized how I sounded like a racist.

Personally, the towers should have already been rebuilt with some kind of memorial put in place on the grounds. This whole thing has gone on far too long.

[keithy_19]

Have you ever been to Pearl Harbour? If you go and check out the memorial you see the resting place for many Americans and the feelings of what that attack must have felt like are real and moving. At the same time Hawaii is a big vacation spot for many Asians and its hard to not get angry at the sight of them as irrational as it is.

I've never been, though I would love to go and hopefully one day will.

I wish it wasn't the way you put it. That we could all just say what's done is done and move on. You're not responsible for your father's crimes.

But as humans, as you pointed out, we get angry over things and at people who had nothing to do with it.

[A.J.]

Have you ever been to Pearl Harbour? If you go and check out the memorial you see the resting place for many Americans and the feelings of what that attack must have felt like are real and moving. At the same time Hawaii is a big vacation spot for many Asians and its hard to not get angry at the sight of them as irrational as it is.

I remember as a kid going to the USS Intrepid museum and they were playing films of veterans talking about how many Japs they killed during various battles during WWII. All the while, there was a group of Japanese tourists taking pictures of everything, totally oblivious to the dialogue.

Surreal.

[booster11373]

You state that their beliefs are groundless and outdated simply because you don't understand them or assume that you do. It is the same thing as a religious person writing off someone who does not believe as they do to be an infidel or heathen.

Thats not true at all. Faith and religion are not just the other side of the coin to reason and fact.

[booster11373]

I've never been, though I would love to go and hopefully one day will.

I wish it wasn't the way you put it. That we could all just say what's done is done and move on. You're not responsible for your father's crimes.

But as humans, as you pointed out, we get angry over things and at people who had nothing to do with it.

According to the Bible you are responsible

[Death Metal Moe]

Thats not true at all. Faith and religion are not just the other side of the coin to reason and fact.

They are when you don't think for yourself.

[Death Metal Moe]

According to the Bible you are responsible

http://www.cybotron.com/Cybo_images/adameve.jpg

I hope that was a tasty apple, bitch.

[Furtherman]

I thought Satan was a snake, not some kind of freak-faced ferret.

[A.J.]

I thought Satan was a snake, not some kind of freak-faced ferret.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_3HmZaftaI90/SmjlE9K7D_I/AAAAAAAABqc/zuo_XMVlKF8/s320/mash+frank+burns.jpg

[Kevin]

http://www.cybotron.com/Cybo_images/adameve.jpg

I hope that was a tasty apple, bitch.

Adam and Eve were mexican?

[Death Metal Moe]

http://www.cybotron.com/Cybo_images/adameve.jpg


Actually, now that I look at that pic closer, is that Paul O tempting Eve?

[booster11373]

Actually, now that I look at that pic closer, is that Paul O tempting Eve?

I dont think so, no thug life tat

[Death Metal Moe]

I dont think so, no thug life tat

Damn, you're right. I was hoping this was proof I needed to finally bring to the world to show it that Paul O is actually Satan.

[Kevin]

Damn, you're right. I was hoping this was proof I needed to finally bring to the world to show it that Paul O is actually Satan.

Aren't his movie reviews proof enough?

[Zorro]

Damn, you're right. I was hoping this was proof I needed to finally bring to the world to show it that Paul O is actually Satan.

I'm all for building a Temple of Paul-O @ the WTC site !

[booster11373]

Paul O's full name is Paul O'I hate America

[disneyspy]

Paul O's full name is Paul O'I hate America

i heard he changed it from Paul O' how i hate the jews

[hanso]

You state that their beliefs are groundless and outdated simply because you don't understand them or assume that you do. It is the same thing as a religious person writing off someone who does not believe as they do to be an infidel or heathen.

If only it would stop there. Most feel some need to try to convert these types.

[badmonkey]

If only it would stop there. Most feel some need to try to convert these types.

Yeah, there's an awful lot of atheist proselytizing going on.

[Death Metal Moe]

Yeah, there's an awful lot of atheist proselytizing going on.

You're right, there's not. I just wish they'd stop asking. I know where the fuck your fucking church is if I want to hear what you have to say, go wait for me there.

[scottinnj]

I don't know where the notion came from that those who believe in a god are intellectually lazy. Quite frankly, those who use that argument simply don't know the facts. I know there are a lot of those who can't explain why they believe, but apologists who can defend their faith have done a great deal of research. In the Christian community, three giants Christian Apologetics are C.S. Lewis, Ravi Zacharias & Josh McDowell. I urge those who think religious people are dim witted rubes to read "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis and with honesty on the completion of the last page decry him as an idiot.

I would like to see some of you atheists/agnostics defend your beliefs. I find it strange that you all point to science to say there is no god, but even though science does not prove there is a god, there is considerable evidence throughout the sciences that there is an order to the day to day goings on in the universe which therefore points to an intelligent designer.

[Death Metal Moe]

I never said the people who run the religions are dumb, they're very good at what they do. They keep people paying week after week after week.

I find the average person who is "religious" to be lazy because they only think the way they do because they were indoctrinated into the religion as a child and never considered which, if any, religion was right for them.

[Chigworthy]

I would like to see some of you atheists/agnostics defend your beliefs. I find it strange that you all point to science to say there is no god, but even though science does not prove there is a god, there is considerable evidence throughout the sciences that there is an order to the day to day goings on in the universe which therefore points to an intelligent designer.

I don't think that being devoutly religious has anything to do with intelligence. Faith supersedes intelligence. I would wager that the ratio of imbecile believers to genius believers is roughly the same as that of the entire human population. But, I'm not sure what you mean by the considerable evidence throughout the sciences that the order of the universe indicates an intelligent designer. To me, the concept of God, often referred to as "he" by believers, is a concept that we have created in our image and projected our wants and beliefs upon. This God will never be proved by science, because it is a construct of faith.

I have a hard time believing that the hypothetical intelligent designer, which to be reinforced through scientific study would have to govern all that exists, from cellular meiosis to the gravitational mechanics of astral bodies, would be concerned with which geometric symbols different groups of humans worshiped.

[hanso]

I know your life is empty
And you hate to face this world alone
So you're searching for an angel
Someone who can make you whole
I can not save you
I can't even save myself
So just save yourself

I know that you've been damaged
Your soul has suffered such abuse
But I am not your savior
I am just as fucked as you
I am just as fucked as you
I can not save you
I can't even save myself
So just save yourself

Please don't take pity on me
Please don't take pity on me
Please don't take pity on me
Please don't take pity on me

My life has been a nightmare
My soul is fractured to the bone
And if I must be lonely, I think I'd rather be alone
I think I'd rather be alone

You can not save me
You can't even save yourself
I can not save you
I can't even save myself
Save yourself
So just save yourself


<object width="480" height="360"><param name="movie" value="http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/video/x36nb8?additionalInfos=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/video/x36nb8?additionalInfos=0" width="480" height="360" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always"></embed></object><br /><b><a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x36nb8_stabbing-westward-save-yourself_music">Stabbing Westward - Save Yourself</a></b><br /><i>Uploaded by <a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/raggalaggaff">raggalaggaff</a>. - <a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/us/channel/music">Explore more music videos.</a></i>

[foodcourtdruide]

I don't know where the notion came from that those who believe in a god are intellectually lazy. Quite frankly, those who use that argument simply don't know the facts. I know there are a lot of those who can't explain why they believe, but apologists who can defend their faith have done a great deal of research. In the Christian community, three giants Christian Apologetics are C.S. Lewis, Ravi Zacharias & Josh McDowell. I urge those who think religious people are dim witted rubes to read "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis and with honesty on the completion of the last page decry him as an idiot.

I would like to see some of you atheists/agnostics defend your beliefs. I find it strange that you all point to science to say there is no god, but even though science does not prove there is a god, there is considerable evidence throughout the sciences that there is an order to the day to day goings on in the universe which therefore points to an intelligent designer.

I don't really believe this, it just sounds like a tag-line religious people use against science. I've known a few scientists and they all seem to strictly separate their religious beliefs from their science. When I read this, it sounds like at some point a scientist would say, "...and finally the reason x occurs is because of something we can't explain... like God". That's just not how science works.

And I'm extremely religous (buddhist).

[foodcourtdruide]

I never said the people who run the religions are dumb, they're very good at what they do. They keep people paying week after week after week.

I find the average person who is "religious" to be lazy because they only think the way they do because they were indoctrinated into the religion as a child and never considered which, if any, religion was right for them.

I disagree with you Moe. I think your example works for someone like ESD, whose connection to his faith is simply a matter of convenience. As he doesn't seem to follow catholicism in any logical way other than how it works for him at the moment.

However, when someone seeks out faith and really immerses their lives in it, it's actually incredibly difficult and hard work. Maintaining faith through adversity has been one of the hardest (and most rewarding) challenges of my life.

[hanso]

Like the church van death wrecks on the highways?

Maybe they should get an agnostic bus driver.


http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms891009.aspx

[booster11373]

I would like to see some of you atheists/agnostics defend your beliefs. I find it strange that you all point to science to say there is no god, but even though science does not prove there is a god, there is considerable evidence throughout the sciences that there is an order to the day to day goings on in the universe which therefore points to an intelligent designer.

Who designed this designer?

[Death Metal Moe]

I would like to see some of you atheists/agnostics defend your beliefs. I find it strange that you all point to science to say there is no god, but even though science does not prove there is a god, there is considerable evidence throughout the sciences that there is an order to the day to day goings on in the universe which therefore points to an intelligent designer.

Why does seeing order in the universe immediately point to an intelligent designer? Your whole premise is flawed because there's nothing that says a system with some sort of order HAS to be steered or at least set up by someone or something. There's lots of different reasons some order may come out of chaos.

[Death Metal Moe]

I disagree with you Moe. I think your example works for someone like ESD, whose connection to his faith is simply a matter of convenience. As he doesn't seem to follow catholicism in any logical way other than how it works for him at the moment.

However, when someone seeks out faith and really immerses their lives in it, it's actually incredibly difficult and hard work. Maintaining faith through adversity has been one of the hardest (and most rewarding) challenges of my life.

Well you know that people actively seeking out religions are in the vast minority. Most people follow whatever was given to them and blindly defend it like they're somehow invested in it more than the routine their parents set up for them on Sunday mornings.

Anyway, I'm not impressed with people who find different religion later on either. Trade one set of stories for another. What is more lazy than giving your entire life over to a religion? Bah, who needs that freedom!

[Death Metal Moe]

Who designed this designer?

I think it was Vera Wang.

[Kevin]

Not believing in religion does not always mean you do not believe in God.

I just chose to follow my own core beliefs of just be a good person and live your life honestly.

If you make mistakes, learn from them and go on.

All these other rules and such really are just nonsense in my book.

[Death Metal Moe]

Not believing in religion does not always mean you do not believe in God.

I just chose to follow my own core beliefs of just be a good person and live your life honestly.

If you make mistakes, learn from them and go on.

All these other rules and such really are just nonsense in my book.

Well put.

I personally am always going back and forth between Agnostic and Atheist, but one thing I know for goddamn sure is I don't believe in the religions of men. If there's a god I'm extremely sure he doesn't want you to follow the silly set of social control rules most of these awful little religions have set up.

I also hate when religious people act as if there's not good without God and people with no religion in their lives can't be good. I have no religion in my life and I'm a fairly nice guy. I don't cause any trouble. Hell, I don't even have any points on my driver's license. I help people out from time to time, mostly friends and family of course like the rest of us.

I don't sit in my atheist house at night cursing the rest of the world, just wanting religious aspect of it to leave me alone. Good exists independently of religion. Religion doesn't have monopoly on Good.

[Chigworthy]

It also drives me crazy when believers think they are the only ones capable of having spirituality. They have equated being a spiritual person with being a believer in god, which is very self-centered.

[Kevin]

Well put.

I personally am always going back and forth between Agnostic and Atheist, but one thing I know for goddamn sure is I don't believe in the religions of men. If there's a god I'm extremely sure he doesn't want you to follow the silly set of social control rules most of these awful little religions have set up.

I also hate when religious people act as if there's not good without God and people with no religion in their lives can't be good. I have no religion in my life and I'm a fairly nice guy. I don't cause any trouble. Hell, I don't even have any points on my driver's license. I help people out from time to time, mostly friends and family of course like the rest of us.

I don't sit in my atheist house at night cursing the rest of the world, just wanting religious aspect of it to leave me alone. Good exists independently of religion. Religion doesn't have monopoly on Good.

I was talking to Spoon on this issue a couple days ago..

We came up with an example of what God is made out to be in Religion..

Geroge Stienbrenner..

A crazy power hungry white man who wants you to worship him.
You should be privlaged to work for him.
He is always right

When you do good, he may or may not chose to reward you.

If you do not, you are humiliated and fired.


Sprinkle in some charitable things here and there and bam, he is a great guy.

[Death Metal Moe]

It also drives me crazy when believers think they are the only ones capable of having spirituality. They have equated being a spiritual person with being a believer in god, which is very self-centered.

Yes, that is extremely annoying too. I personally don't go in for much spirituality, but I don't think someone who says they connect to the universe in their own way is any more crazy than someone who connects with the Holy Spirit in church every Sunday.

Just because more people do your crazy little version of spirituality doesn't make it more right.

[A.J.]

I was talking to Spoon on this issue a couple days ago..

We came up with an example of what God is made out to be in Religion..

Geroge Stienbrenner..

A crazy power hungry white man who wants you to worship him them when you do good, he may or may not chose to reward you.

You should be privlaged to work for him.

If you do not, you are humiliated and fired.


Sprinkle in some charitable things here and there and bam, he is a great guy.

And he gave us His son Hal.

[Death Metal Moe]

I was talking to Spoon on this issue a couple days ago..

We came up with an example of what God is made out to be in Religion..

Geroge Stienbrenner..

A crazy power hungry white man who wants you to worship him them when you do good, he may or may not chose to reward you.

You should be privlaged to work for him.

If you do not, you are humiliated and fired.


Sprinkle in some charitable things here and there and bam, he is a great guy.

So when God took George from us, does that mean God needed another....him? I think my fucking mind just got blown....twice.

So does that make Jeter Jesus? And what does that make Chuck Knoblauch?

[foodcourtdruide]

Well you know that people actively seeking out religions are in the vast minority. Most people follow whatever was given to them and blindly defend it like they're somehow invested in it more than the routine their parents set up for them on Sunday mornings.

Anyway, I'm not impressed with people who find different religion later on either. Trade one set of stories for another. What is more lazy than giving your entire life over to a religion? Bah, who needs that freedom!

How is it lazy? I think this is a real bias you have against people with faith. It's very difficult to maintain faith. Not everyone is a sheep that just wants to do 1 hour a week on sunday to guarentee a spot in heaven.

[Kevin]

So when God took George from us, does that mean God needed another....him? I think my fucking mind just got blown....twice.

So does that make Jeter Jesus? And what does that make Chuck Knoblauch?

Hal i think is Jesus (The son)

Jeter is prob Michael..

Slaying heithans with his sword.

Knobs??

Thats a tough one.

[foodcourtdruide]

I find it funny that a lot of non-religious people have the righteous indignation for religious people that they accuse religious people of having for everyone else.

[Kevin]

I find it funny that a lot of non-religious people have the righteous indignation for religious people that they accuse religious people of having for everyone else.

Here is the thing...

We DON'T

We just want to be left alone and live our lives.

If you chose to believe in Religion.. Go right ahead.

Just don't try to cram it down my throats and say i am going to hell because i Don't.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The talk between back and forth btwn Atheists and Religious people is interesting. Atheists believe that a lot of religious people are close minded but the same can go for Atheists. How do they really know if there is no god? I am not sure if I would consider myself agnostic, I am not religious at all, but I do have an open mind about this issue. I think that it is possible that there could be a god or supernatural being, but then again its possible that theres not.

[foodcourtdruide]

The talk between back and forth btwn Atheists and Religious people is interesting. Atheists believe that a lot of religious people are close minded but the same can go for Atheists. How do they really know if there is no god? I am not sure if I would consider myself agnostic, I am not religious at all, but I do have an open mind about this issue. I think that it is possible that there could be a god or supernatural being, but then again its possible that theres not.

I'm with you WF. Also, from previous threads I find that they also do not believe they need to have faith in something to believe there is no God. Belief in nothingness is still a belief of something that can't be proven. That, to me, is faith.

[foodcourtdruide]

Here is the thing...

We DON'T

We just want to be left alone and live our lives.

If you chose to believe in Religion.. Go right ahead.

Just don't try to cram it down my throats and say i am going to hell because i Don't.

So referring to religion as a "silly set of social control rules" is not a righteous way of thinking?

[Kevin]

So referring to religion as a "silly set of social control rules" is not a righteous way of thinking?

Its silly for me.

But If you chose to believe it, i am not going to hold it against you.

I am not going to call you a hellbound idiot because of it.

I am not going to think any less of you.

People are just wired different.

That is the main difference.

Like i said, i believe there is a God.

Being from Kosovo where 93% of the people there are Muslim, I obviously grew up a Muslim.

A progressive, westernized Muslim like most people are there

But going through life I just chose to believe in God in my own way.

[Death Metal Moe]

How is it lazy? I think this is a real bias you have against people with faith. It's very difficult to maintain faith. Not everyone is a sheep that just wants to do 1 hour a week on sunday to guarentee a spot in heaven.

It's extremely lazy. Pray instead of being pro-active. Turn your life over to something instead of living it yourself. Spouting little mantras and rehearsed lines about things like "It's God's will" instead of taking responsibility for your life and your actions.

Also, all faith does is divide us. Faith that what you believe in is better than the next guy and you're going to heaven. So everyone else, even different denominations of the same religion, are heathens and going to Hell for following their bastardized version of "the word of God."

It's all just such a dog and pony show.

[Death Metal Moe]

I'm with you WF. Also, from previous threads I find that they also do not believe they need to have faith in something to believe there is no God. Belief in nothingness is still a belief of something that can't be proven. That, to me, is faith.

There may be a God. The only thing I have true faith in is that all Earthly religions are worthless.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

I think the 64K question is.

Are there really no Atheists in a foxhole?

[Kevin]

I think the 64K question is.

Are there really no Atheists in a foxhole?

The 64k question is..

Why are you still using myspace?!

[Death Metal Moe]

I find it funny that a lot of non-religious people have the righteous indignation for religious people that they accuse religious people of having for everyone else.

Well that I've seen with my own eyes. Religion is set up to have one set of believers look down their nose at non-believers and even believers of a different version of your "truth" so to speak.

Just look at the Protestants and Catholics. They even kill each other in a few parts of the world.

Ahh, it's such an enlightened system. Truly designed by divine hands. :wallbash::wallbash::wallbash:

[Death Metal Moe]

Another reason I hate religion is, it takes away all credit from man for doing things.

Everything with these bungholes is "a gift from God." Oh, the Lord saw fit to have us be able to afford this new car.

No "he" didn't. You worked for that, or I worked for that. The Lord had nothing to do with it. I was able to do something because I was determined, the next guy wasn't because he was lazy.

I control my destiny, not some unseen force in the sky.

[Kevin]

Well that I've seen with my own eyes. Religion is set up to have one set of believers look down their nose at non-believers and even believers of a different version of your "truth" so to speak.

Just look at the Protestants and Catholics. They even kill each other in a few parts of the world.

Ahh, it's such an enlightened system. Truly designed by divine hands. :wallbash::wallbash::wallbash:

You have Muslims blowing up Mosques and killing other Muslims because one group believes the leader should be a direct family decendent of Mohammad, and the other thinks you should earn your right to lead.

I mean, seriously?

Blowing up sacred buildings and other fellow followers is OK?

[Chigworthy]

I'm with you WF. Also, from previous threads I find that they also do not believe they need to have faith in something to believe there is no God. Belief in nothingness is still a belief of something that can't be proven. That, to me, is faith.

Word games. You know the difference. I challenge you to find someone who believes 100% in this "nothingness" as you call it (I assume you mean the lack of a creator, which I wouldn't refer to as nothingness), and will not revise their beliefs if it was proven that there is a creator. That would be the same thing as religious faith.

[foodcourtdruide]

There may be a God. The only thing I have true faith in is that all Earthly religions are worthless.

Ok Moe. I'm sorry you feel this way. Maybe one day you'll open your mind up to things a little more and see that religion has done a lot of good for many people as well. Violence caused in the name of religion is not necessarily a function of religion.

[foodcourtdruide]

Word games. You know the difference. I challenge you to find someone who believes 100% in this "nothingness" as you call it (I assume you mean the lack of a creator, which I wouldn't refer to as nothingness), and will not revise their beliefs if it was proven that there is a creator. That would be the same thing as religious faith.

Can you elaborate?

[Chigworthy]

Can you elaborate?

Yes, I'm good at elaboration when I know what to elaborate on.

[foodcourtdruide]

Yes, I'm good at elaboration when I know what to elaborate on.

Why would revising beliefs be the same as religious faith? I'm not following.

[Death Metal Moe]

Ok Moe. I'm sorry you feel this way. Maybe one day you'll open your mind up to things a little more and see that religion has done a lot of good for many people as well. Violence caused in the name of religion is not necessarily a function of religion.

Ahhh, and there's the "holier than thou" attitude I've been waiting for. Because I don't agree with your way and see your Faith as valid, I'm a lost soul worthy of your pity.

See, was that so hard to fall in line with?

Please, don't pray for me. That's the worst thing you could ever do for me.

[foodcourtdruide]

Ahhh, and there's the "holier than thou" attitude I've been waiting for. Because I don't agree with your way and see your Faith as valid, I'm a lost soul worthy of your pity.

See, was that so hard to fall in line with?

Please, don't pray for me. That's the worst thing you could ever do for me.

You seemed to have had an entire conversation with me without my knowledge. I'm not being holier than thou, you seem to be 100% convinced with your beliefs and discussing it with you would be pointless, so I tried to politely back away from the conversation. I'm sorry if you interpreted that as my being holier than thou.

[booster11373]

@ foodcourtdruide

Atheists do not believe in a supernatural explanation for natural existence to say that we believe in nothingness is insulting. You are yourself an atheist if you do not believe in the Greek or Roman gods. Take that reasoning you have for lack of belief in those gods and you might be able to understand why people like myself do not believe in the god that you believe in.

I believe in many things nothingness is not one of them

[foodcourtdruide]

@ foodcourtdruide

Atheists do not believe in a supernatural explanation for natural existence to say that we believe in nothingness is insulting. You are yourself an atheist if you do not believe in the Greek or Roman gods. Take that reasoning you have for lack of belief in those gods and you might be able to understand why people like myself do not believe in the god that you believe in.

I believe in many things nothingness is not one of them

Didn't mean to insult you buddy. Nothingness was the wrong term for me to use.

[Death Metal Moe]

You seemed to have had an entire conversation with me without my knowledge. I'm not being holier than thou, you seem to be 100% convinced with your beliefs and discussing it with you would be pointless, so I tried to politely back away from the conversation. I'm sorry if you interpreted that as my being holier than thou.

Yea, good try. Let's play a game with your own words. You said...

Maybe one day you'll open your mind up to things a little more

which is your way of saying "I'm more open minded than you therefore better than you at having an opinion. Since you don't see it my way, you're a close minded moron."

I'm actually very open minded. I despise religion but am for freedom of it in the same way I'm for legalization of all drugs. You should be free to waste your own time in whatever manner you see fit as an adult.

I also don't go bothering people with my opinions unless it's on a message board like this one in a discussion not dissimilar to the one we're in. But I don't "spread the good word" of non-belief or strap on back pack bombs and try to convert the unwilling by force.

And don't play passive-aggressive with me, I'm the king of that game. You certainly did not "back away" from the conversation.

[Death Metal Moe]

@ foodcourtdruide

Atheists do not believe in a supernatural explanation for natural existence to say that we believe in nothingness is insulting. You are yourself an atheist if you do not believe in the Greek or Roman gods. Take that reasoning you have for lack of belief in those gods and you might be able to understand why people like myself do not believe in the god that you believe in.

I believe in many things nothingness is not one of them

It's just the attitude religion has crammed down his throat. He's better than people who don't believe like him. It's not even his fault, I can't get that mad at him. It's the message behind the message that keeps us all divided.

I'd sooner believe in a Satan than a God because religion would be his greatest tool for evil on this planet.

[S0S]

Why build a mosque there?

/obvious

[sailor]

Maybe one day you'll open your mind up to things a little more and see that religion has done a lot of good for many people as well.


Moe, that was so dishonest to drop off the end of his sentence and willfully misinterpret what FCD wrote. He simply was saying open you eyes and see that religion has done good things as well as bad.

[foodcourtdruide]

Moe, that was so dishonest to drop off the end of his sentence and willfully misinterpret what FCD wrote. He simply was saying open you eyes and see that religion has done good things as well as bad.

He wants me to say to open his eyes and believe in the things I believe in. That's honestly not what I meant though. I respect people who are atheists, however I think it's wrong to say religion has only been a force for bad in this world.

[foodcourtdruide]

It's just the attitude religion has crammed down his throat. He's better than people who don't believe like him. It's not even his fault, I can't get that mad at him. It's the message behind the message that keeps us all divided.

I'd sooner believe in a Satan than a God because religion would be his greatest tool for evil on this planet.

I don't know, you seem to have an entire preconcieved notion about me. I don't even believe in the Christian form of God. I respect other religions and atheists, and like to debate whether or not atheism is a religion.

[Death Metal Moe]

Moe, that was so dishonest to drop off the end of his sentence and willfully misinterpret what FCD wrote. He simply was saying open you eyes and see that religion has done good things as well as bad.

Why? The 1st part of the sentence was the part that mattered, him suggesting that I was closed minded to whatever he thought was right.

The last part of the sentence was irrelevant. Anyway, it's not like I fucking deleted his existing thread. People could go 3 posts up and see what his full point was if they wanted to.

[Death Metal Moe]

I don't know, you seem to have an entire preconcieved notion about me. I don't even believe in the Christian form of God. I respect other religions and atheists, and like to debate whether or not atheism is a religion.

It's called having your card.

[Syd]

I don't know, you seem to have an entire preconcieved notion about me. I don't even believe in the Christian form of God. I respect other religions and atheists, and like to debate whether or not atheism is a religion.

If Atheism is a religion then math is the God of Atheism. It's absolute, constant throughout the universe and is proven to exist.

[booster11373]

I don't know, you seem to have an entire preconcieved notion about me. I don't even believe in the Christian form of God. I respect other religions and atheists, and like to debate whether or not atheism is a religion.

Ask yourself what is a religion and then go and see if Atheism fills those requirements.

But.

Atheism is not a religion because there are no central tenants or dogma, there is no indoctrination there is no centralized organizations

[sailor]

Why? The 1st part of the sentence was the part that mattered, him suggesting that I was closed minded to whatever he thought was right.

The last part of the sentence was irrelevant. Anyway, it's not like I fucking deleted his existing thread. People could go 3 posts up and see what his full point was if they wanted to.


He didn't pity your soul or offer to pray for you, but that is what you twisted it to in your tirade.

[Death Metal Moe]

He didn't pity your soul or offer to pray for you, but that is what you twisted it to in your tirade.

You can infer a lot without actually saying it. Do try to keep up Sailor. I don't know who the fuck you are but most of the Mods here were relatively intelligent. Don't set a new precedent.

And it was bad enough that he called me close minded for not seeing things his own way i.e. "the mantra of all religion."

[Death Metal Moe]

If Atheism is a religion then math is the God of Atheism. It's absolute, constant throughout the universe and is proven to exist.

Ask yourself what is a religion and then go and see if Atheism fills those requirements.

But.

Atheism is not a religion because there are no central tenants or dogma, there is no indoctrination there is no centralized organizations

Guys, don't take the bait. It's a very common tactic for religious folk to try and portray Atheists and Agnostics as the very thing the despise in an attempt to side track the argument.

[sailor]

You can infer a lot without actually saying it. Do try to keep up Sailor. I don't know who the fuck you are but most of the Mods here were relatively intelligent. Don't set a new precedent.

And it was bad enough that he called me close minded for not seeing things his own way i.e. "the mantra of all religion."

there was nothing to infer. You're paranoid.

[CurseoftheBambi]

http://www.juancole.com/2010/07/palin-on-the-ground-zero-mosque-vs-the-founding-fathers.html

some food for thought..

[badmonkey]

You complain about being harassed by religious people for not being religious all the while you are harassing, insulting, and attacking religious people for being religious. If you want to be respected regardless of your (lack of) religion, then you have to show some to get some. It's a two way street. Be an atheist if that's what makes you happy, but don't be a hypocrite.

[Death Metal Moe]

You complain about being harassed by religious people for not being religious all the while you are harassing, insulting, and attacking religious people for being religious. If you want to be respected regardless of your (lack of) religion, then you have to show some to get some. It's a two way street. Be an atheist if that's what makes you happy, but don't be a hypocrite.

Hmmmm....

well, I'm perplexed. What the fuck does this even have to do with what's going on?

If we weren't talking about religion on a message board, a place you discuss things and sometimes get heated about, you'd have no idea of my religious opinions. I keep them to myself, even when religion comes up in conversation because I know how people got when I used to give my opinions. So for short, polite social conversations I steer clear of religion.

Religion sneaks into all our lives without your stereotypical Jehovah's Witness coming to your door. We have a fucking president making faith based decisions for us for 8 years. People treat you differently when you tell them you don't believe what they believe, it happens.

[Death Metal Moe]

How about those wonderful Blue Laws some places in NJ have? Do others have those? Since the baby Jesus said so, lots of places close on Sunday and I think whole towns or even counties force business to close. What does Sunday mean to a Jew, Muslim, Hindu or even the dreaded ::gasp:: atheist? Absolutely nothing.

This is another example of the majority putting their stupid religious beliefs on others.

[JimBeam]

They do that in CT too but they also don't sell on holidays.

So if the 4th of July is on a Tuesday no beer for you.

That has nothing to do w/ religion though.

This is another example of the majority putting their stupid religious beliefs on others.

So a system works better where the minority's beliefs are put upon the majority ?

[keithy_19]

I don't know where the notion came from that those who believe in a god are intellectually lazy. Quite frankly, those who use that argument simply don't know the facts. I know there are a lot of those who can't explain why they believe, but apologists who can defend their faith have done a great deal of research. In the Christian community, three giants Christian Apologetics are C.S. Lewis, Ravi Zacharias & Josh McDowell. I urge those who think religious people are dim witted rubes to read "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis and with honesty on the completion of the last page decry him as an idiot.

I would like to see some of you atheists/agnostics defend your beliefs. I find it strange that you all point to science to say there is no god, but even though science does not prove there is a god, there is considerable evidence throughout the sciences that there is an order to the day to day goings on in the universe which therefore points to an intelligent designer.

I'm not nearly as strong in my faith as I used to be, but this is exactly what I think. I have never understood why science and religion cannot go hand in hand. The things that some people think are pure signs that there isn't a higher power could also be looked at as just the way the higher power has done it.

[Furtherman]

I would like to see some of you atheists/agnostics defend your beliefs. I find it strange that you all point to science to say there is no god, but even though science does not prove there is a god, there is considerable evidence throughout the sciences that there is an order to the day to day goings on in the universe which therefore points to an intelligent designer.

Please name one piece of this evidence.

[Death Metal Moe]

So a system works better where the minority's beliefs are put upon the majority ?

Well, that's a clever way out of this, isn't it?

How about no one's belief system is put on anyone? Is that so fucking hard? I thought we had freedom of religion, which also should protect freedom FROM religion.

And being closed on a Sunday has everything to do with old fashioned Christian morals being imposed on a community.

[Serpico1103]

I would like to see some of you atheists/agnostics defend your beliefs. I find it strange that you all point to science to say there is no god, but even though science does not prove there is a god, there is considerable evidence throughout the sciences that there is an order to the day to day goings on in the universe which therefore points to an intelligent designer.

Science can try to prove there is no god, but proving a negative is never an appropriate method. Can you prove that I am not your god?
There is order to the universe because without order there wouldn't be a universe. If the laws of physics were different, the universe would be different. It is not proof that someone came up with a workable design.
Unlike early religions that claimed every phenomenon was the result of the gods, today's religions have moved their god back to where he basically just snapped his fingers millions of years ago and has since taken a step back. It is simple to prove that Thor isn't throwing thunderbolts. Read literally, yes God did not do what he is given credit for in the Bible. Read as parables and metaphors, it can never be disproven because it isn't taking credit for anything.

[keithy_19]

Well, that's a clever way out of this, isn't it?

How about no one's belief system is put on anyone? Is that so fucking hard? I thought we had freedom of religion, which also should protect freedom FROM religion.

And being closed on a Sunday has everything to do with old fashioned Christian morals being imposed on a community.

Yeah. I agee with this too.

[JimBeam]

I know that the closed on Sundays stems from the religious aspect but why do they carry it over to holidays when that doesn't make sense ?

Not really pertinent to this topic but tied together somewhat.

We live in a democracy which is, for the most part, majority rule and since our country is largely Christian those beliefs are bound to be more prevelant because those elected share the views of their constituents ( for the most part ).

If anything this country is more anti-religion that it is pre-religion when it comes to policy ( although amongst the citizens that's not the case ).

There's more of you can't do this, pertaining to religion, than there us you have to do this.

[keithy_19]

Science can try to prove there is no god, but proving a negative is never an appropriate method. Can you prove that I am not your god?
There is order to the universe because without order there wouldn't be a universe. If the laws of physics were different, the universe would be different. It is not proof that someone came up with a workable design.
Unlike early religions that claimed every phenomenon was the result of the gods, today's religions have moved their god back to where he basically just snapped his fingers millions of years ago and has since taken a step back. It is simple to prove that Thor isn't throwing thunderbolts. Read literally, yes God did not do what he is given credit for in the Bible. Read as parables and metaphors, it can never be disproven because it isn't taking credit for anything.

Maybe God is simply nature.

And the best explanation of God to me comes from that Futurama epidose where Bender has a race of people appear on his body while floating in space.

[keithy_19]

There's more of you can't do this, pertaining to religion, than there us you have to do this.

This as well.

Ya know, I wanted to go to school and get a degree in theology by I realized that I would learn nothing and everything from it.

[Crispy123]

Ask yourself what is a religion and then go and see if Atheism fills those requirements.

But.

Atheism is not a religion because there are no central tenants or dogma, there is no indoctrination there is no centralized organizations

Atheism is the belief that there are no deities. Buddhism is an atheist religion.

[foodcourtdruide]

Atheism is the belief that there are no deities. Buddhism is an atheist religion.

Yup, though it's funny how people often try to twist the definition of God around to claim Buddhists have a notion of God. I guess it's mostly semantics though.

Also, we've had this discussion on the board before, but I think Atheism is not at the moment a religion, though it has the potential to become one. My point was that they do organize (there are many atheist groups), the potential for sacred texts are there (Darwin's writings) and they do have a belief (though that belief is disbelief). I think it's open-ended, but not absolute.

[Kevin]

This as well.

Ya know, I wanted to go to school and get a degree in theology by I realized that I would learn nothing and everything from it.



What?

[Crispy123]

Maybe God is simply nature.

And the best explanation of God to me comes from that Futurama epidose where Bender has a race of people appear on his body while floating in space.

You needed futurama to understand a higher power? Go to a meeting and you'll understand completely.

[foodcourtdruide]

You can infer a lot without actually saying it. Do try to keep up Sailor. I don't know who the fuck you are but most of the Mods here were relatively intelligent. Don't set a new precedent.

And it was bad enough that he called me close minded for not seeing things his own way i.e. "the mantra of all religion."

I'm trying to tell you that you are misunderstanding me, but you are not believing me for some reason. If I wanted to say "hey believe in my religion and you'll be saved" I'd just say it. My issue was with your outright insulting of religion and religious people in general. I think it's incorrect so I'll discuss it with you. There's really no reason for you to characterize me as something I'm not.

[foodcourtdruide]

I know that the closed on Sundays stems from the religious aspect but why do they carry it over to holidays when that doesn't make sense ?

Not really pertinent to this topic but tied together somewhat.

We live in a democracy which is, for the most part, majority rule and since our country is largely Christian those beliefs are bound to be more prevelant because those elected share the views of their constituents ( for the most part ).

If anything this country is more anti-religion that it is pre-religion when it comes to policy ( although amongst the citizens that's not the case ).

There's more of you can't do this, pertaining to religion, than there us you have to do this.

So you think we shouldn't have Christmas/Easter/etc. off?

[Crispy123]

Yup, though it's funny how people often try to twist the definition of God around to claim Buddhists have a notion of God. I guess it's mostly semantics though.

Also, we've had this discussion on the board before, but I think Atheism is not at the moment a religion, though it has the potential to become one. My point was that they do organize (there are many atheist groups), the potential for sacred texts are there (Darwin's writings) and they do have a belief (though that belief is disbelief). I think it's open-ended, but not absolute.

Yeah my problem with Atheists is that they claim to follow a moral code of good and evil. Which if you don't beleive in a higher power clarifying good vs evil then you are by default making yourself into the deity and making those decisions on your own, which would not make you/them an Atheist.

Which leads to the other argument that there are laws and they are just following the law, which then makes the court/judge/police officer your higher power and it all just gets silly. Not to mention the fact that 99% of everyone in America today bows down to the belief in the almighty dollar and the faith of our economic system.

[JimBeam]

So you think we shouldn't have Christmas/Easter/etc. off?

Of course I think we should have them off.

But I think we get them off mostly because the people who run our business, for those that work in the private sector, are Christians.

I don't think we get them off because the gov't says those places must close.

But even with things like religous holidays it's not always the Christians that get preference.

The public schools close for most ( if not all ) Jewish holidays but don't close for all Christian ones.

[foodcourtdruide]

Yeah my problem with Atheists is that they claim to follow a moral code of good and evil. Which if you don't beleive in a higher power clarifying good vs evil then you are by default making yourself into the deity and making those decisions on your own, which would not make you/them an Atheist.

Which leads to the other argument that there are laws and they are just following the law, which then makes the court/judge/police officer your higher power and it all just gets silly. Not to mention the fact that 99% of everyone in America today bows down to the belief in the almighty dollar and the faith of our economic system.

You make a really great point. What is morality to an atheist?

[foodcourtdruide]

Of course I think we should have them off.

But I think we get them off mostly because the people who run our business, for those that work in the private sector, are Christians.

I don't think we get them off because the gov't says those places must close.

But even with things like religous holidays it's not always the Christians that get preference.

The public schools close for most ( if not all ) Jewish holidays but don't close for all Christian ones.

They close for none of mine, but I really don't mind it. We'll usually just have ceremonies etc on the weekends and maybe pray/chant extra those specific days. I think wanting a day off for a holiday is a bit of a powerplay. What is the point really?

[Crispy123]

They close for none of mine, but I really don't mind it. We'll usually just have ceremonies etc on the weekends and maybe pray/chant extra those specific days. I think wanting a day off for a holiday is a bit of a powerplay. What is the point really?

socialism and a welfare state

[Death Metal Moe]

You make a really great point. What is morality to an atheist?

To even ask such a question show such an arrogance that it makes me not want to come back in this fucking thread.

[Death Metal Moe]

I'm trying to tell you that you are misunderstanding me, but you are not believing me for some reason. If I wanted to say "hey believe in my religion and you'll be saved" I'd just say it. My issue was with your outright insulting of religion and religious people in general. I think it's incorrect so I'll discuss it with you. There's really no reason for you to characterize me as something I'm not.

No I think I understand you a bit too well.

[foodcourtdruide]

To even ask such a question show such an arrogance that it makes me not want to come back in this fucking thread.

I ask because morality is something that is dictated by a greater sense of right and wrong, but if someone had a greater sense of right and wrong wouldn't they have to believe in something greater than themselves, which would in turn make them a believer in something supernatural, which would go against the concept of atheism? I was hoping an atheist could explain their ideas of morality.. not get insulted and leave the thread.

[foodcourtdruide]

No I think I understand you a bit too well.

Fine, I'm thinking of a number from 1-10. I bet you can't guess it.

[Serpico1103]

You make a really great point. What is morality to an atheist?

What is morality to a Buddhist?

[Crispy123]

What is morality to a Buddhist?

Denying the ego and giving up desire.

[Death Metal Moe]

I ask because morality is something that is dictated by a greater sense of right and wrong, but if someone had a greater sense of right and wrong wouldn't they have to believe in something greater than themselves, which would in turn make them a believer in something supernatural, which would go against the concept of atheism? I was hoping an atheist could explain their ideas of morality.. not get insulted and leave the thread.

Ugh. Are you fucking trolling me at this point? Because if you are just come clean.

Someone has to have a belief in the greater good to abide by laws, have a sense of community, not want to harm anyone purposely, want to live their lives peacefully and make sure their friends and family have the help they need?

How about just understanding that for a society to work we can't have rampant anarchy, but you don't need to point to a fucking bullshit man made religious lie to justify wanting to do good in the world.

Do you get it now? This is what is infuriating. Not seeing that "good" and "God" are independent of each other.

[Death Metal Moe]

Denying the ego and giving up desire...

MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!

[foodcourtdruide]

What is morality to a Buddhist?

I guess all sects are different. We have a concept of a "mystic law" and a respect for all living things. We believe that everyone has a "buddha nature," which we all share. Thus to commit any type of slight against anyone is just as committing that slight towards ourselves.

Also, because of Karma, we will inevitably be retributed for any evil we commit.

[foodcourtdruide]

Ugh. Are you fucking trolling me at this point? Because if you are just come clean.

Someone has to have a belief in the greater good to abide by laws, have a sense of community, not want to harm anyone purposely, want to live their lives peacefully and make sure their friends and family have the help they need?

How about just understanding that for a society to work we can't have rampant anarchy, but you don't need to point to a fucking bullshit man made religious lie to justify wanting to do good in the world.

Do you get it now? This is what is infuriating. Not seeing that "good" and "God" are independent of each other.

Morality and following laws of society are two different things. Why would you, say, give to chairty? And why help a friend in need? What makes you make that decision?

Can you please stop getting upset? And if you think my points are so innane that I must be trolling you, maybe we should stop this conversation.

[Death Metal Moe]

Morality and following laws of society are two different things. Why would you, say, give to chairty? And why help a friend in need? What makes you make that decision?

Can you please stop getting upset? And if you think my points are so innane that I must be trolling you, maybe we should stop this conversation.

Good idea, let's stop having this conversation because I'm pretty sure you're just goating me into getting upset with you by asking a succession of stupider and stupider questions.

[foodcourtdruide]

Good idea, let's stop having this conversation because I'm pretty sure you're just goating me into getting upset with you by asking a succession of stupider and stupider questions.

ok.

[booster11373]

the potential for sacred texts are there (Darwin's writings)

Thats not a valid point at all.

Here is why

Sacred texts like the bible have lots of errors and inconsistencies and are wholly open to lots of different interpretations

A book like Darwin's Origin of Species is a scientific theory, as such was/is subject to peer review and the idea that if knowledge that comes along that disproves it, it would be no longer held valid, this would be nothing like a sacred text

[booster11373]

If morality comes from belief in a God and the majority of people on this planet are believers and those believers commit most of all the immoral acts........

[Serpico1103]

I guess all sects are different. We have a concept of a "mystic law" and a respect for all living things. We believe that everyone has a "buddha nature," which we all share. Thus to commit any type of slight against anyone is just as committing that slight towards ourselves.

Also, because of Karma, we will inevitably be retributed for any evil we commit.

But, how do you determine what is a slight? How do you determine what is a harm? Is every harm or slight written down in a big book that you memorize?

[Serpico1103]

I ask because morality is something that is dictated by a greater sense of right and wrong, but if someone had a greater sense of right and wrong wouldn't they have to believe in something greater than themselves, which would in turn make them a believer in something supernatural, which would go against the concept of atheism? I was hoping an atheist could explain their ideas of morality.. not get insulted and leave the thread.

Morality is normally based on cultural norms. Most religious people follow more societal norms than religious ones. Believing in a society's norms is not the same as believing in a higher power. Yes, the society is greater than ourselves, but it is not supernatural.

[foodcourtdruide]

Thats not a valid point at all.

Here is why

Sacred texts like the bible have lots of errors and inconsistencies and are wholly open to lots of different interpretations

A book like Darwin's Origin of Species is a scientific theory, as such was/is subject to peer review and the idea that if knowledge that comes along that disproves it, it would be no longer held valid, this would be nothing like a sacred text

True, Darwin was probably a bad example. How about something from Hitchens? Do you see it as inplausible that Atheists could at some point of a sacred text?

[foodcourtdruide]

Morality is normally based on cultural norms. Most religious people follow more societal norms than religious ones. Believing in a society's norms is not the same as believing in a higher power. Yes, the society is greater than ourselves, but it is not supernatural.

I agree with you. However, I explained Karma, everyone being a buddha as potential reasons for doing good, correct? What reason would an Atheist have? Could someone believe in a "greater good" and still be an atheist?

[foodcourtdruide]

But, how do you determine what is a slight? How do you determine what is a harm? Is every harm or slight written down in a big book that you memorize?

I think it comes down to common sense. I don't think it's necessarily about societal constructs. You can still harm someone within the rules of society.

[booster11373]

True, Darwin was probably a bad example. How about something from Hitchens? Do you see it as inplausible that Atheists could at some point of a sacred text?

What is he espousing other then his opinion? He is not giving an explanation about how the world works using unverifiable ideas.

Its extremely implausible that would ever happen, most atheists have at least a cursory knowledge of critical thinking skills and as such the idea of a sacred text is almost repulsive. Nothing should be above examination and exploration

[foodcourtdruide]

What is he espousing other then his opinion? He is not giving an explanation about how the world works using unverifiable ideas.

Its extremely implausible that would ever happen, most atheists have at least a cursory knowledge of critical thinking skills and as such the idea of a sacred text is almost repulsive. Nothing should be above examination and exploration

Do you see Atheism as a movement? If so, as the movement grows wouldn't the bolded statement be less and less true?

[booster11373]

Do you see Atheism as a movement? If so, as the movement grows wouldn't the bolded statement be less and less true?

I don't know how to answer that. How could a group of people who value factual examination of the real world suddenly do a 180 turn and still maintain the core idea?

If the Catholic church suddenly allowed priest to marry, Women to be bishops, Changed it stance on abortion and contraception rejected the divinity of Jesus would it still be the catholic church?

[Serpico1103]

I agree with you. However, I explained Karma, everyone being a buddha as potential reasons for doing good, correct? What reason would an Atheist have? Could someone believe in a "greater good" and still be an atheist?

I act morally towards others for selfish reasons. It makes me feel good, I stay out of jail, I hope they will help me, etc. When I help someone, I don't curse them as I am doing it, I am actually glad I could help someone.

You need a reason to be moral, fear of bad karma. I have a reason, it makes me feel good now, not in some possible future life.

That being said, I agree with buddism, as a way to live your life. I just get lost when it comes to reincarnation and karma, it's magical unicorn talk.

[Chigworthy]

Why would revising beliefs be the same as religious faith? I'm not following.

Mr. Convoluto-Brain, you said that atheists' lack of belief in god was in fact a belief in nothingness, which you think is the same thing as faith.

Then I said that you probably could not find an atheist that would deny the existence of god if it was proven by science, which is exactly why lack of belief in god is decidedly not the same thing as faith. Hopefully you can open your mind to what I'm saying. Do you know the main thing that separates science from faith?

[sailor]

I don't know how to answer that. How could a group of people who value factual examination of the real world suddenly do a 180 turn and still maintain the core idea?

If the Catholic church suddenly allowed priest to marry, Women to be bishops, Changed it stance on abortion and contraception rejected the divinity of Jesus would it still be the catholic church?

there are a limited number of married catholic priests. There's really no religious need/basis for it.

[Crispy123]

Denying the ego and giving up desire.

MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!

...or woman. When you give up the self gender is irrelevant.