Need to believe in God to be good? [Archive]

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 03:16 AM

This holiday season, atheists organizations will post messages on buses, trains, billboards in DC, NYC, Las Vegas, Chicago, LA, Seattle with the basic message that you can be good, love your family and even enjoy the holidays without believing in god. The response has been vandalism, threats of violence, and very hurt feelings. One lawyer from a Christian law firm is quoted in the below NYC article, "It is the ultimate Grinch to suggest there is no God during a holiday where millions of people around the world celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ"

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/02/us/02atheist.html?ref=us

I'm amazed how many people think you need to believe in god to be good, love your family, enjoy life. Anyone have any opinions on the topic?

Marc with a c

12-02-2009, 03:19 AM

my sister blurted out something along the lines of "you can't be moral if you don't believe in god" last week and i started laughing. she got super god mad at me.

mikeyboy

12-02-2009, 03:28 AM

is that worse than regular mad?

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 03:32 AM

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 03:33 AM

is that worse than regular mad?

based on some of the stuff in the Old Testament, I'd say 'god mad' is pretty fucking mad

foodcourtdruide

12-02-2009, 03:58 AM

My religion does not believe in a God, however its funny to see people bend over backwards to classify what we do believe in as God-like. I think it disturbs people to believe there is no crrator.

LordJezo

12-02-2009, 04:13 AM

Besides all of you going to hell or purgatory, there is nothing wrong with living a heathen life. Will be terrible for you all after death but what's eternity when compared to a fun 50 or 60 good years on Earth?

A.J.

12-02-2009, 04:19 AM

Yet these Christians continue to tell children to believe in Santa to be good. It's nice to have a safety net I guess.

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 04:52 AM

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 04:55 AM

Yet these Christians continue to tell children to believe in Santa to be good. It's nice to have a safety net I guess.

This is all fresh in my mind after being with family. my mom said, why not just pray to Jesus even if you don't believe in him or God? It can't hurt and then you are covered if there really is a hell.

ADF

12-02-2009, 05:08 AM

As an atheist, even I think it's a little obnoxious to put out an advertisement about this. I'd rather atheists prove themselves by example, rather than through billboards.

Marc with a c

12-02-2009, 05:11 AM

As an atheist, even I think it's a little obnoxious to put out an advertisement about this. I'd rather atheists prove themselves by example, rather than through billboards.

as long as they don't get married i'm okay with whatever those people do.

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 05:29 AM

As an atheist, even I think it's a little obnoxious to put out an advertisement about this. I'd rather atheists prove themselves by example, rather than through billboards.

I see your point but I think atheists should be a bit more out there. It's fine and even encouraged to be an atheist in places like NYC (aka Sodom, Gomorrah, Babylon, etc) but I can imagine being a kid in the Bible Belt and being encouraged even by a billboard saying "hey, it's OK not to be believe in god".

Growing up in rural Washington State, I was surrounded by hard core Christians. I knew there were atheists, agnostics, or skeptics in the outside world but assumed everyone in my community was either a Christian or Jewish. It would have been very helpful if there was a group of prominent atheists who made it no secret that they didn't believe in god.

underdog

12-02-2009, 05:36 AM

Isn't the basis of Christmas and Santa Claus not even christian?

It's amazing how little christians know about their own religion.

Furtherman

12-02-2009, 05:45 AM

Need to believe in God to be good?

Nope.

tanless1

12-02-2009, 05:56 AM

Id be interested to know how many people were approached before the reactions you refer to were received.

Furtherman

12-02-2009, 05:58 AM

Dear God, please confirm what I already believe. (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18216-dear-god-please-confirm-what-i-already-believe.html)

God may have created man in his image, but it seems we return the favour. Believers subconsciously endow God with their own beliefs on controversial issues.

"The experiments in which we manipulate people's own beliefs are the most compelling evidence we have to show that people's own beliefs influence what they think God believes more substantially than it influences what they think other people believe,"

Religion a figment of human imagination (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13782-religion-a-figment-of-human-imagination.html)

sailor

12-02-2009, 06:00 AM

Of course not. I do think the tIming is mean-spirited of them.

underdog

12-02-2009, 06:06 AM

Of course not. I do think the tIming is mean-spirited of them.

Don't you need to believe in god to be mean-spirited?

sailor

12-02-2009, 06:11 AM

Of course not.

CountryBob

12-02-2009, 06:40 AM

A.J.

12-02-2009, 06:59 AM

as long as they don't get married i'm okay with whatever those people do.

Even their disgusting Athiest Pride Parades?

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 07:05 AM

Even their disgusting Athiest Pride Parades?

fucking pedophiles, all of them

Syd

12-02-2009, 07:11 AM

My religion does not believe in a God, however its funny to see people bend over backwards to classify what we do believe in as God-like. I think it disturbs people to believe there is no crrator.

That's the problem with atheism. The inconsequentiality of your own life -- you have to come to grips with the fact that one day you'll die and then what you experience will be like how it was before you were born.

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 07:13 AM

That's the problem with atheism. The inconsequentiality of your own life -- you have to come to grips with the fact that one day you'll die and then what you experience will be like how it was before you were born.

I think it is a healthy process to come to grips with the fact that one day you will die and you have no idea what will happen afterwards. to many people, God and heaven is a way to stick their heads in the sand and not fully face death and life.

SinA

12-02-2009, 07:22 AM

kinda sucks that the zealots have cornered the market on morality.

i'm of the mind that morality is a priori

boosterp

12-02-2009, 07:24 AM

I think it is a healthy process to come to grips with the fact that one day you will die and you have no idea what will happen afterwards. to many people, God and heaven is a way to stick their heads in the sand and not fully face death and life.

Thank you, can't truly face mortality. I may not know what if any afterlife I face, actually I hope to be reincarnated but I do not find discomfort in the not knowing part.

TripleSkeet

12-02-2009, 07:56 AM

They can put up as many billboards as they like if itll make them stop whining and crying about nativity scenes.

Thats my biggest problem with some atheists. They just come across as the biggest bitches when they see someone celebrating their belief in God. Like with most things, the problem is people not minding their own fucking business.

When I first read about this I thought it was great because the people they interviewed felt this was a better way to go about "battling Christmas" then trying to get people to take down nativity scenes.

Cockstrong

12-02-2009, 08:18 AM

I identify myself as an atheist and I think I'm a good person.

I don't care about nativity scenes or any other religious symbols on personal or church property. If it's on public or government property, I'd rather it not be there, but I wouldn't protest it.

Same thing goes with the "under God" verse in the Pledge of Allegiance. I'm not going to say those 2 words, but you can if you want and I wouldn't protest it if you did. I would rather they not be in there to begin with, but since they are there and they don't do me any harm, I wouldn't ask them to be removed.

Truthfully, I am bothered by the lack of a full separation of church and state, but I realize that the vast majority of the population likes it this way, and I live in a democracy. I also hate the ultra PC sensitive people out there and I realize I would be one if I actually protested any of this stuff.

EDIT: Interesting side note - We're going to decorate our house for Christmas. I always looked at Christmas as a family holiday and didn't really associate it with Christianity, other than being dragged to church that day.

lleeder

12-02-2009, 08:21 AM

who cares what you think about God? You mouthfuck your opponents.

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 08:24 AM

who cares what you think about God? You mouthfuck your opponents.

Is mouthfucking your opponent your answer to everything?

lleeder

12-02-2009, 08:25 AM

Is mouthfucking your opponent your answer to everything?

Its hard to answer with a cock rammed down your gullet.

Death Metal Moe

12-02-2009, 08:27 AM

If a public figure went on a local, state or national ticket as an atheist I'd vote for him in a second, just based on that.

Ya know, just like the religious right does with their guys. Well educated voting.

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 08:27 AM

Cockstrong

12-02-2009, 08:34 AM

Is mouthfucking your opponent your answer to everything?

Its hard to answer with a cock rammed down your gullet.

The problem is there are to many opponents and not enough cocks.

Marc with a c

12-02-2009, 09:34 AM

how many nine year olds could you mouth fuck?

badmonkey

12-02-2009, 09:39 AM

That lawyer's quote about being the "ultimate Grinch" to suggest there is no god during the holiday season really hit me. wow, really? First of all, if your faith is so weak that you are bothered by someone claiming there is no god, you need to re-examine why you believe in Him in the first place. Second, evangelical Christianity is a childish religion. The overreaction toward these very mild, good-natured atheist messages like "be good for goodness's sake" really sounds like kids being told there is no Santa. I grew up in an evangelical church and went to my parent's church a couple of weeks ago. My family and all evangelical Christians that I know have made God a big father figure who protects and punishes. Why the anger, fear, violence at merely mentioning that He might not exist?

Interesting take. So you would agree then that your faith that there is no God shouldn't be shaken by having to view a nativity scene at Christmas either then, right? Is it maybe that you're ashamed of your lack of faith? Do you hate being reminded that when you die it's just gonna be the end? I don't get it at all. Athiests are the firsts people to complain about Christian evangelism, but have zero problem with putting up billboards for their religion. In this country we all have the right to celebrate or participate in our religion however we like within the confines of the law (no virgin sacrifices, etc). Another right that we all have is the right to remain silent so shut the fuck up and have a Merry Christmas.

TheMojoPin

12-02-2009, 09:41 AM

Seems needlessly mean-spirited. To me this isn't any kind of attempt to bring up discussion or debate and is simply a potshot at the "other side." Ah-boo.

lleeder

12-02-2009, 09:42 AM

how many nine year olds could you mouth fuck?

It depends. What really constitutes a mouth fucking? Insertion? Or Jizz?

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 09:42 AM

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 09:47 AM

Seems needlessly mean-spirited. To me this isn't any kind of attempt to bring up discussion or debate and is simply a potshot at the "other side." Ah-boo.

some of the messages are mean-spirited and I don't agree with those. I wish everyone would keep their religious beliefs to themselves and churches that engage in politics get their tax exemption revoked.

Cockstrong

12-02-2009, 09:49 AM

Interesting take. So you would agree then that your faith that there is no God shouldn't be shaken by having to view a nativity scene at Christmas either then, right? Is it maybe that you're ashamed of your lack of faith? Do you hate being reminded that when you die it's just gonna be the end? I don't get it at all. Athiests are the firsts people to complain about Christian evangelism, but have zero problem with putting up billboards for their religion. In this country we all have the right to celebrate or participate in our religion however we like within the confines of the law (no virgin sacrifices, etc). Another right that we all have is the right to remain silent so shut the fuck up and have a Merry Christmas.

I don't think any Atheists are upset at all that when you die it's just the end. That's why we're Atheists, it's what we believe.

I don't care for the "Believe in Jesus ... or burn in Hell" billboards I see when I travel through Kansas, but I wouldn't tell anyone to take them down. They paid for the billboard, so they get to display their message. I don't have any problem with the signs the Atheists put up, and if you disagree that doesn't mean you have the right to deface them or send death threats.

badmonkey

12-02-2009, 09:49 AM

some of the messages are mean-spirited and I don't agree with those. I wish everyone would keep their religious beliefs to themselves and churches that engage in politics get their tax exemption revoked.

So the only religion that should be represented in govt is atheism?

Cockstrong

12-02-2009, 09:50 AM

It depends. What really constitutes a mouth fucking? Insertion? Or Jizz?

I think erection is mandatory, but orgasm is not.

Cockstrong

12-02-2009, 09:53 AM

So the only religion that should be represented in govt is atheism?

Technically I wouldn't call Atheism a religion. Atheists generally have irreligious beliefs. And I would like my government to be irreligious.

KatPw

12-02-2009, 09:54 AM

I think that they are picking on the believers at their most special time of year.
As a believer in God, I don't get offended at non-believers or by even thinking about the possibility that there is no God. I do get aggravated by closed minded people that refuse to put thought and time into why they believe what they believe.
Being good is a self-identified feeling that shouldnt have anything to do with your religious beliefs.

Since when is Christmas the most important part of the year for Christians? I was raised RC and we were always told the most Holy of times was between Good Friday and Easter. The savior died for our sins and rose three days later. That is a really big deal. He wasn't even born in December. Christians took over the Pagan solstice holiday in order to convert people. It has nothing to do with Christ.

And my lack of faith should have no bearing on someone else's belief. That says more about the believer than it does me as an Atheist. If there is doubt in your heart it comes from you, not an outside influence.

Religions do not have a monopoly on morality. I try to be a good person because that is how I was raised and I care for people as a whole. If a person only acts in a moral manner because they fear some sort of retribution from a God or punishment in the afterlife that says more about the believer than it does Atheists. That person is basically saying the only thing that keeps them from being amoral is their fear of punishment, not the idea that hurting another human is wrong.

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 09:55 AM

So the only religion that should be represented in govt is atheism?

the US government should be completely religion neutral. this thread point is my surprise at how pissed off religious people get when they see atheistic messages that have been paid for privately and aren't breaking any laws. this has nothing to do with the government

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 09:57 AM

TheMojoPin

12-02-2009, 10:02 AM

Since when is Christmas the most important part of the year for Christians? I was raised RC and we were always told the most Holy of times was between Good Friday and Easter. The savior died for our sins and rose three days later. That is a really big deal. He wasn't even born in December. Christians took over the Pagan solstice holiday in order to convert people. It has nothing to do with Christ.

Good points. Good Friday and Easter are indeed the crux in the Christian faith. The Christmas season is basically just a clusterfuck of trumped up holidays trying to compete with someone else: Christmas was put out there to outdo the Pagans, Hanukkah is a relatively minor Jewish holiday pumped up to compete with Christmas, then you have Kwanzaa jumping in the mix over the last 40 years trying to compete and then you have Santa blowing up over the last century or so just kicking everyone's asses.

What a mess.

foodcourtdruide

12-02-2009, 10:06 AM

KatPw

12-02-2009, 10:08 AM

foodcourtdruide

12-02-2009, 10:08 AM

So the only religion that should be represented in govt is atheism?

I think our government should be agnostic.

angrymissy

12-02-2009, 10:09 AM

Interesting take. So you would agree then that your faith that there is no God shouldn't be shaken by having to view a nativity scene at Christmas either then, right?

I'm as nonreligious/atheist as you get and I don't give a crap about nativity scenes, or Christmas Trees, or Menorahs, I'd rather my tax dollars didn't pay for it, but it's really a non-issue.

Is it maybe that you're ashamed of your lack of faith?

Why would we be ashamed about our lack of faith? It seems religious people think we should be. Are you ashamed of your faith?

Do you hate being reminded that when you die it's just gonna be the end? I don't get it at all.

I don't think any atheists really hate being reminded about that, it's what we believe.

Atheists are the firsts people to complain about Christian evangelism, but have zero problem with putting up billboards for their religion.

I have no problem with people putting up billboards that they pay for with thier own money, as long as they're not over the top offensive or promoting violence.

[QUOTE=badmonkey;2606266]In this country we all have the right to celebrate or participate in our religion however we like within the confines of the law (no virgin sacrifices, etc). Another right that we all have is the right to remain silent so shut the fuck up and have a Merry Christmas.

Yup. FWIW, I'm not religious but love Christmas and celebrate it as a family tradition.

A.J.

12-02-2009, 10:09 AM

Christians took over the Pagan solstice holiday in order to convert people. It has nothing to do with Christ.

"It case you haven't noticed, it's Jesus' birthday. So get off your heathen ass and fucking celebrate!"

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8bJvAU3RZWU&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8bJvAU3RZWU&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

A.J.

12-02-2009, 10:10 AM

I think our government should be agnostic.

It was supposed to be, once. Fucking Freemasons.

badmonkey

12-02-2009, 10:11 AM

wait, I forgot. the name of the thread is do you need to believe in God to be good. to me, of course there is no connection. I am amazed at how many people believe you need to believe in God to be good. isn't reasonable that an atheist would be offended by this?

I've never in my life heard anybody say that there was a connection. I've never heard anybody say that people that don't believe in or have never heard of God or any god are incapable of morality. Wonder why they think the billboards are necessary. Are there some Christian sponsored billboards stating that message somewhere that these particular atheists are trying to counter?

I think that more than likely they're just disrespectful assholes that are looking for attention and have managed to get enough money together to take their anti-Christian message board trolling to another level. There's a dumb girl that one of them wants to have sex with that is probably totally impressed right now.

KatPw

12-02-2009, 10:12 AM

"It case you haven't noticed, it's Jesus' birthday. So get off your heathen ass and fucking celebrate!"

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8bJvAU3RZWU&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8bJvAU3RZWU&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

:lol:

KatPw

12-02-2009, 10:18 AM

I've never in my life heard anybody say that there was a connection. I've never heard anybody say that people that don't believe in or have never heard of God or any god are incapable of morality. Wonder why they think the billboards are necessary. Are there some Christian sponsored billboards stating that message somewhere that these particular atheists are trying to counter?

I think that more than likely they're just disrespectful assholes that are looking for attention and have managed to get enough money together to take their anti-Christian message board trolling to another level. There's a dumb girl that one of them wants to have sex with that is probably totally impressed right now.

I think that the signs are going up more as a response to the Evangelical Right's talking point of "We are a Christian Nation". We do not have a National religion. We are a nation filled with people of many faiths. We can say we have a nation with many Christian citizens. But we are not a Christian nation.

And I think the signs are also used as a tool to tell other non-believers that they are not alone. Religious organizations and individuals put up signs as a way to communicate to their kind of people, the Atheist groups and individuals put up signs to do the same.

angrymissy

12-02-2009, 10:19 AM

I've never in my life heard anybody say that there was a connection. I've never heard anybody say that people that don't believe in or have never heard of God or any god are incapable of morality. Wonder why they think the billboards are necessary. Are there some Christian sponsored billboards stating that message somewhere that these particular atheists are trying to counter?

I think that more than likely they're just disrespectful assholes that are looking for attention and have managed to get enough money together to take their anti-Christian message board trolling to another level. There's a dumb girl that one of them wants to have sex with that is probably totally impressed right now.

On another message board that I read frequently, this topic does indeed come up a lot, and people do say things along those lines, of "How can you be moral and good if you do not believe in a higher power". They are basically saying people would be murdering and raping daily without a God to answer to, because otherwise you have no consequences in the afterlife. It's a legitimate topic.

This billboard has been put up for the past 3 years... possibly longer. Why exactly do you find it so offensive? It's not attacking any other religion at all, it simply says "Be good for goodness sake", rather than be good for God's sake.

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 10:20 AM

I've never in my life heard anybody say that there was a connection. I've never heard anybody say that people that don't believe in or have never heard of God or any god are incapable of morality.

I have heard plenty of Christians say that believing in Jesus cleanses sin. The story I heard is humans have Original Sin thanks to Adam and Eve. Good works alone cannot put people right in the eyes of God and only accepting the sacrifice of Jesus can make people good, saved, forgiven.

If you see no connection between someone's morality and their belief/disbelief in God, then we are agreeing.

badmonkey

12-02-2009, 10:21 AM

On another message board that I read frequently, this topic does indeed come up a lot, and people do say things along those lines, of "How can you be moral and good if you do not believe in a higher power". It's a legitimate topic.

This billboard has been put up for the past 3 years. Why exactly do you find it so offensive? It's not attacking any other religion at all, it simply says "Be good for goodness sake", rather than be good for God's sake.

Who said I thought it was offensive? I think it's stupid.

A.J.

12-02-2009, 10:22 AM

it simply says "Be good for goodness sake", rather than be good for God's sake.

Because...Santa Claus is coming to town!

angrymissy

12-02-2009, 10:22 AM

Who said I thought it was offensive? I think it's stupid.

You seem to be pretty PO'ed about it, JMO from your previous posts.

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 10:23 AM

it simply says "Be good for goodness sake", rather than be good for God's sake.

that's what gets me. vast majority of these atheist messages are very benign like this one. I understand the anger if they are saying "Hail Satan, fuck you Christians" but they're not.

Cockstrong

12-02-2009, 10:24 AM

Are there some Christian sponsored billboards stating that message somewhere that these particular atheists are trying to counter?

Here's one.

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/7425/antiatheist.jpg

angrymissy

12-02-2009, 10:28 AM

http://www.bored.com/billboards/images/atheist_billboard.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_9nTItnS3VNk/SZEx6aybHGI/AAAAAAAAsnU/k5Vmzjr-CBs/s400/atheist+christian+counter+campaign+billboard.jpg

A.J.

12-02-2009, 10:30 AM

http://www.bored.com/billboards/images/atheist_billboard.jpg

Ah, West Virginia. Home of snakehandlers and inbreds.

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 10:33 AM

http://z.about.com/d/atheism/1/0/H/z/2/UnderGod01.jpg

angrymissy

12-02-2009, 10:34 AM

TheMojoPin

12-02-2009, 10:36 AM

Lunatic atheists always throw the best parties.

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 10:38 AM

Lunatic atheists always throw the best parties.

Atheists - they hate America but party like there's no tomorrow

badmonkey

12-02-2009, 10:38 AM

I have heard plenty of Christians say that believing in Jesus cleanses sin. The story I heard is humans have Original Sin thanks to Adam and Eve. Good works alone cannot put people right in the eyes of God and only accepting the sacrifice of Jesus can make people good, saved, forgiven.

If you see no connection between someone's morality and their belief/disbelief in God, then we are agreeing.

If you mean good as opposed to evil, then yes you can be good without a belief in God.
If you mean good as being cleansed of sin by religions standards, then why the fuck would an atheist even care?

That's two completely separate uses of the word good. Sorry, you can't be an atheist and be seen as good (cleansed of sin) in the eyes of God. I guess the bright side if you're an atheist is that there's no God making that judgment call anyway.

You seem to be pretty PO'ed about it, JMO from your previous posts.

I'm not pissed about it. Atheists seem to be surprised and upset that there are Christians offended by the billboards, which is funny because that seems to be the whole point of the billboards in the first place.

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 10:40 AM

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_o6oYe1Zb9oA/SSHpa6htnVI/AAAAAAAAAJk/mzh3YYsvNAg/s320/christian_billboard6.jpg

The only atheist ones I've ever seen are VERY benign. The other one was something like "Don't believe in God? You're not alone" with a website.

I had some pre-op testing done recently, and was a bit taken aback when they asked for my religion (I guess in case something happened during my procedure), I answered "none, atheist I guess" when the nurse asked, and she made a big fucking to-do about it. NO? REALLY? I'VE HAD 3 OF YOU THIS WEEK! YOU SURE?.

I would have found a billboard saying "Don't Believe in God? You're not alone" very encouraging when I was a 13 year old in a very conservative rural community. most of these are for support for other agnostics/atheists or for recruiting the young.

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 10:42 AM

I guess the bright side if you're an atheist is that there's no God making that judgment call anyway.

once again, we are agreeing. Not being right in the eyes of the Christian god mean as little to me as if someone said Lono, the Hawaiian god, is pissed at me because I haven't sacrificed enough children in a volcano

TheMojoPin

12-02-2009, 10:43 AM

Miss Lono. He was the best.

Furtherman

12-02-2009, 10:46 AM

Good points. Good Friday and Easter are indeed the crux in the Christian faith. The Christmas season is basically just a clusterfuck of trumped up holidays trying to compete with someone else: Christmas was put out there to outdo the Pagans, Hanukkah is a relatively minor Jewish holiday pumped up to compete with Christmas, then you have Kwanzaa jumping in the mix over the last 40 years trying to compete and then you have Santa blowing up over the last century or so just kicking everyone's asses.

What a mess.

Not only is Easter another recycled pagan holiday, but the whole resurrection myth is based on an earlier Egyptian myth.

Cockstrong

12-02-2009, 10:48 AM

Atheists seem to be surprised and upset that there are Christians offended by the billboards, which is funny because that seems to be the whole point of the billboards in the first place.

That wasn't the point of the billboards. They were pro-Atheist, not anti-religion. The problem is the people who believe the only acceptable Atheist billboard is an anti-Atheist billboard.

angrymissy

12-02-2009, 10:49 AM

I'm not pissed about it. Atheists seem to be surprised and upset that there are Christians offended by the billboards, which is funny because that seems to be the whole point of the billboards in the first place.

Why do you think the point of the billboard is to offend Christians? The point of the billboard is to show atheists are not alone.

Furtherman

12-02-2009, 10:51 AM

once again, we are agreeing. Not being right in the eyes of the Christian god mean as little to me as if someone said Lono, the Hawaiian god, is pissed at me because I haven't sacrificed enough children in a volcano

I'd rather worship Pele. She's hotter.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/215/481616652_695e76df04.jpg

And there's the rub - you can be good and believe in either god or Pele... but there's no difference in either of the gods.

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 10:52 AM

I'd rather worship Pele. She's hotter.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/215/481616652_695e76df04.jpg

And there's the rub - you can be good and believe in either god or Pele... but there's no difference in either of the gods.

I'd toss a couple of tykes in a volcano for her.

Cockstrong

12-02-2009, 10:53 AM

God is a volcano?

Furtherman

12-02-2009, 10:54 AM

God is a volcano?

god is a supernova.

Misteriosa

12-02-2009, 10:58 AM

god is a supernova.

i thought god was a dj...

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZCvVatG16NE&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZCvVatG16NE&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

edit: saw the forum, but this song still adds to the convo a little.. :o

lleeder

12-02-2009, 10:59 AM

How did this thread get derailed? More mouth fucking chat

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 11:01 AM

God is a concept

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Wv3ic6OOXns&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Wv3ic6OOXns&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

TheMojoPin

12-02-2009, 11:07 AM

And there's the rub - you can be good and believe in either god or Pele... but there's no difference in either of the gods.

Until a soccer game breaks out.

underdog

12-02-2009, 11:33 AM

I had some pre-op testing done recently

Undergoing a change?

boosterp

12-02-2009, 12:55 PM

Undergoing a change?

Her screen name will be AngryMister soon.

NateCantDance

12-02-2009, 01:03 PM

They seem to be putting a lot of effort into something that they don't believe in...

GregoryJoseph

12-02-2009, 01:18 PM

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 01:25 PM

Of course a person doesn't have to believe in God (or gods) to be a good, moral human being, but I agree with what some others said about having to put this out there at Christmas time.

It just seems like an attempt to take a cheap shot at the majority.

Atheists and any other group are free to do whatever they wish, but they should remember the old "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar" adage.

It's hard to be respected and taken seriously when every point you make is a condescending attack.

good point, Greg. I don't agree with the pain in the ass atheists who just try to piss off people and have big chips on their shoulders.

Some of the messages, though, are just supportive messages for other atheists during the holiday season. This is a very heavily monotheistic dominated time of the year. I see nothing wrong with the message that says, hey, atheists, agnostics also love our friends, families and enjoy the holidays and you aren't alone if you don't believe in god.

GregoryJoseph

12-02-2009, 01:28 PM

good point, Greg. I don't agree with the pain in the ass atheists who just try to piss off people and have big chips on their shoulders.

Some of the messages, though, are just supportive messages for other atheists during the holiday season. This is a very heavily monotheistic dominated time of the year. I see nothing wrong with the message that says, hey, atheists, agnostics also love our friends, families and enjoy the holidays and you aren't alone if you don't believe in god.

That would be fine with me as well.

I just don't understand the antagonistic nature of some atheists. They try to act like they're so superior and that they "know" the truth.

The TRUTH is that they know as much as the rest of us, and everyone should be respected for his or her own individual beliefs.

underdog

12-02-2009, 01:29 PM

It's hard to be respected and taken seriously when every point you make is a condescending attack.

This could be about any group.

Can we all just agree that the most vocal of any group are usually annoying and condescending?

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 01:32 PM

That would be fine with me as well.

I just don't understand the antagonistic nature of some atheists. They try to act like they're so superior and that they "know" the truth.

The TRUTH is that they know as much as the rest of us, and everyone should be respected for his or her own individual beliefs.

I don't agree with anyone who is absolutely certain about whether there is a god or not. I tend to agree with and like people who appreciate the mystery and understand our limitations. I don't agree with fundamentalists of any stripe - atheists, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, etc.

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 01:32 PM

This could be about any group.

Can we all just agree that the most vocal of any group are usually annoying and condescending?

amen

Hottub

12-02-2009, 01:49 PM

GregoryJoseph

12-02-2009, 02:01 PM

And while I don't think you need to believe in God to be a good person, I do feel that everyone needs to believe in something bigger than themselves, or it just leaves you a self-centered, egotistical prick.

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 02:01 PM

Whether you believe in the Christ character or not, living your life according to some of "his" teachings is not the worst way to go.

We have a Monsignor at my family's church who has a great ability to to teach some of these lessons without spouting psalms, fire & brimstone, etc. Christ, he doesn't even have to mention Christ.

His earlier priesthood was on the mean streets of Newark and Elizabeth. Applying the lessons (or hiding, if you will) in the stories of the darker underbelly of society is an effective way to convey it.

I have a huge amount of respect for people like the Mosignor you mentioned. My brother became a pastor and has dedicated his life to helping people in the rougher parts of East LA. I agree that living according to his teachings is a good way to go. I have also found that people like your Mosignor or my bro aren't the ones that get into petty fights over theology.

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 02:02 PM

GregoryJoseph

12-02-2009, 02:03 PM

I don't know. how would you define "something bigger than themselves"?

A purpose or power greater than just yourself.

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 02:10 PM

A purpose or power greater than just yourself.

how about an artist who just makes his music, paintings, whatever but doesn't have an idea about where it comes from? I know people like this. I can think of a couple of friends who are complete agnostics but believe in art and are completely passionate about creativity.

GregoryJoseph

12-02-2009, 02:12 PM

how about an artist who just makes his music, paintings, whatever but doesn't have an idea about where it comes from? I know people like this. I can think of a couple of friends who are complete agnostics but believe in art and are completely passionate about creativity.

You answered it...they have no idea where it comes from.

It's the people who believe everything begins and ends with THEM that I find to be detestable.

angrymissy

12-02-2009, 02:13 PM

A purpose or power greater than just yourself.

I don't believe in a purpose or power greater than myself and I really don't consider myself to be egotistical or a prick (hopefully).

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 02:14 PM

You answered it...they have no idea where it comes from.

It's the people who believe everything begins and ends with THEM that I find to be detestable.

yep, I'm with you. not only does thinking like that make people selfish but also boring as hell.

TheMojoPin

12-02-2009, 02:14 PM

You answered it...they have no idea where it comes from.

It's the people who believe everything begins and ends with THEM that I find to be detestable.

Someone who doesn't believe in a higher power isn't necessarily doing what you accuse them of. You're basically saying that type of belief is necessary to know humility. And a higher purpose is not necessarily comparable to a higher power. I agree that egomaniacs are insufferable, but the lack of a belief in a higher power or even a "higher purpose" (which can mean a lot of different things) doesn't automatically mean someone thinks everything begins and ends with them since they still have to deal with and consider all of the other people around them and in the world...unless they're a sociopath.

underdog

12-02-2009, 02:21 PM

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 02:24 PM

You answered it...they have no idea where it comes from.

It's the people who believe everything begins and ends with THEM that I find to be detestable.

but there are few people like this. Most at least have people that they love that take them out of themselves. how about someone who is agnostic but has the greater purpose of loving his/her family?

foodcourtdruide

12-02-2009, 02:35 PM

Been reading this thread and I have a few observations. I think the atheist billboards are as annoying as a giant christian billboard. Its bad form and I understand its a reaction, but in the end they are doing the same thing.

I know many respectful Atheists, but a few obnoxious ones. I have been scoffed at for having religious beliefs by an Atheist and I've been scoffed at for not being Christian by a Christian.

I think our country should be agnostic and respectful of all religions. It bothers me that God is in the pledge, on the dollar bill and the government recognizes (certain religions) religious holidays, but its just the way things are.

GregoryJoseph

12-02-2009, 02:36 PM

I don't believe in a purpose or power greater than myself and I really don't consider myself to be egotistical or a prick (hopefully).

So you live your life entirely for your own benefit and care about no one or nothing else?

Hottub

12-02-2009, 02:39 PM

So you live your life entirely for your own benefit and care about no one or nothing else?

I'm quite sure she did not say that. Please read it again.
If you know even a little about Missy, you should understand.

GregoryJoseph

12-02-2009, 02:45 PM

I'm quite sure she did not say that. Please read it again.
If you know even a little about Missy, you should understand.

She said she didn't believe in a purpose or power greater than herself.

I'm asking her to clarify.

yojimbo7248

12-02-2009, 02:46 PM

I have been scoffed at for having religious beliefs by an Atheist and I've been scoffed at for not being Christian by a Christian.

I have had the same experience. I like people who respect other people's ways of grappling with questions of meaning of life, higher powers, nature of reality even if they don't agree.

angrymissy

12-02-2009, 02:50 PM

So you live your life entirely for your own benefit and care about no one or nothing else?

Throughout my life I have scarified major things for others, but not based on any type of belief in a higher power or purpose. I just do what I, personally, think is the right thing to do.

spankyfrank

12-02-2009, 02:59 PM

Well you definetly don't need to believe in God to be a good person. However what a person does need is a sense of morals.

Now I myself am an Agnostic person and really don't believe in religion all together. However I am not anti-religion. At the very least religion does provide a set of moral guidelines that a person can live by. Whether a person chooses to accept that religion is completely up to them.

GregoryJoseph

12-02-2009, 02:59 PM

Throughout my life I have scarified major things for others, but not based on any type of belief in a higher power or purpose. I just do what I, personally, think is the right thing to do.

How could sacrificing possibly be the right thing to do if it's not for some greater purpose or cause?

angrymissy

12-02-2009, 03:09 PM

How could sacrificing possibly be the right thing to do if it's not for some greater purpose or cause?

Because I believe in helping people? Why does it have to be associated with some purpose or cause? Why can't I just as a person beleive it would be the right thing to do? Why can I only do nice things if it is by following some sort of higher power or cause?

GregoryJoseph

12-02-2009, 03:12 PM

Because I believe in helping people? Why does it have to be associated with some purpose or cause? Why can't I just as a person beleive it would be the right thing to do? Why can I only do nice things if it is by following some sort of higher power or cause?

Exactly my point.

Why do nice things in the first place if you think you're the grand ultimate force in the universe?

spankyfrank

12-02-2009, 03:14 PM

Exactly my point.

Why do nice things in the first place if you think you're the grand ultimate force in the universe?

Well in that case you would do what you would like. Take Caligula, he was brought up by people who never gave him a moral compass because in their eyes he could do no wrong. Years later he does (removed for decency reasons)

foodcourtdruide

12-02-2009, 03:26 PM

Exactly my point.

Why do nice things in the first place if you think you're the grand ultimate force in the universe?

I see where you're going here gvac. Without purpose, there is no purpose. Missy, you do believe in something if you find reason for helping others. It may not be God per say, but I think one could argue there is some (greater force) that you are appealing to.

Or maybe this is a pointless semantics argument.

GregoryJoseph

12-02-2009, 03:35 PM

underdog

12-02-2009, 03:55 PM

I see where you're going here gvac. Without purpose, there is no purpose. Missy, you do believe in something if you find reason for helping others. It may not be God per say, but I think one could argue there is some (greater force) that you are appealing to.

Or maybe this is a pointless semantics argument.

This is definitely a pointless semantics argument.

The way gvac is making it seem, the only reason to do good things is to impress someone (a higher power). That seems even more selfish than doing whatever you want. You're only being good so you look good to a higher power.

SatCam

12-02-2009, 03:55 PM

I'd rather have to deal with an atheist than a jew around christmas time

midwestjeff

12-02-2009, 03:56 PM

Why do nice things in the first place if you think you're the grand ultimate force in the universe?

The costs of acting terrible outweigh the benefits of acting decent in most cases.

No "greater" anything needed to reason that out.

Chigworthy

12-02-2009, 04:24 PM

I understand where Missy is coming from. I have no belief in a higher power or a greater purpose, but I do believe that this life is all we get. Therefore, in the interest of maximizing this life, committing acts of good and being positive overall is the most rewarding way to live. If we want to get into why a normal person feels that living positively makes sense if it is not a feeling sent from on high, it is very easy to understand in the terms of biology and propagation of species. By increasing the value of life, it inherently helps the species, which satisfies the biological drive to contribute to the species.

angrymissy

12-02-2009, 04:31 PM

Exactly my point.

Why do nice things in the first place if you think you're the grand ultimate force in the universe?

I don't think I am the grand ultimate force in the universe... I don't think ANYONE is the grand ultimate force in the universe, however.

keithy_19

12-02-2009, 05:06 PM

As an atheist, even I think it's a little obnoxious to put out an advertisement about this. I'd rather atheists prove themselves by example, rather than through billboards.

I agree with this. Why do people feel the need to push their beliefs on others?

SatCam

12-02-2009, 05:10 PM

nobody reads bus ads anyway

Furtherman

12-02-2009, 06:22 PM

I believe in swordfish.

midwestjeff

12-02-2009, 06:28 PM

I believe in swordfish.

He believes in swordfish!

foodcourtdruide

12-02-2009, 06:37 PM

This is definitely a pointless semantics argument.

The way gvac is making it seem, the only reason to do good things is to impress someone (a higher power). That seems even more selfish than doing whatever you want. You're only being good so you look good to a higher power.

I actually think its interesting. Missy, would you say you do good things for something. beyond yourself? I really think we get wrapped up with it being all about God, but it could be for Karma or some kind of inner re-enforcement or persuit of an ultimate justice.

I don't find the question pointless, but rather fascinating. What is atheism? Is it the rejection of God or the rejection of religion? If its the former, then hundreds of millions of non-Christian/muslim/jews are also atheists. If its the ladder, then I submit "atheism" itself is a religion and impossible.

underdog

12-02-2009, 06:41 PM

I actually think its interesting. Missy, would you say you do good things for something. beyond yourself? I really think we get wrapped up with it being all about God, but it could be for Karma or some kind of inner re-enforcement or persuit of an ultimate justice.

Why can't you just do something? Why does there have to be a reason?

That's what I don't get from this whole argument.

foodcourtdruide

12-02-2009, 06:43 PM

Why can't you just do something? Why does there have to be a reason?

That's what I don't get from this whole argument.

Please elaborate.

Furtherman

12-02-2009, 06:50 PM

We're born, we live, we die. Just like every molecule in the universe. The only choice we have is how to live. Some have more room than others to live. The laws of physics take care of the rest. To feel you have a purpose other than your own is just the human ego getting in the way.

GregoryJoseph

12-02-2009, 06:51 PM

To feel you have a purpose other than your own is just the human ego getting in the way.

Funny...I believe the exact opposite.

underdog

12-02-2009, 06:53 PM

Please elaborate.

What if there's no thought behind an action?

If I see someone walking up behind me as I go through the door, I'll hold the door for them. I don't do it to get approval from the person or to gain me brownie points with Santa Claus. I do it because I want to.

I guess it's sort of a "reaction" at this point, so maybe I once did it for a reason and it's just become instinctual.

Now I'm thinking more about this subject.

At this point in my life, I do "good" things for no reason. But what was the original reason I did it?

GregoryJoseph

12-02-2009, 06:54 PM

At this point in my life, I do "good" things for no reason. But what was the original reason I did it?

Exactly...

underdog

12-02-2009, 06:56 PM

What about animals? Cats react much differently around a sad person (they're usually very comforting and caring). Is that because they believe in God?

midwestjeff

12-02-2009, 06:56 PM

The costs of acting terrible outweigh the benefits of acting decent in most cases.

No "greater" anything needed to reason that out.

Don't make me say it again.

underdog

12-02-2009, 06:57 PM

Exactly...

Thinking about it, it's definitely more of a trained reaction that a "belief". It's something my father taught me that I still follow. The person teaching you the morals is much, much more important than what you believe in.

GregoryJoseph

12-02-2009, 06:57 PM

What about animals? Cats react much differently around a sad person (they're usually very comforting and caring). Is that because they believe in God?

It's because all living things are interconnected.

GregoryJoseph

12-02-2009, 06:58 PM

Thinking about it, it's definitely more of a trained reaction that a "belief". It's something my father taught me that I still follow. The person teaching you the morals is much, much more important than what you believe in.

Not at all.

I know many people who found their own path and rejected the teachings of their parents, teachers, and clergy.

Myself included.

GregoryJoseph

12-02-2009, 06:59 PM

The costs of acting terrible outweigh the benefits of acting decent in most cases.

No "greater" anything needed to reason that out.

Don't make me say it again.

That's absurd.

So you're saying the death penalty is a deterrent?

So is prison?

I don't buy it.

underdog

12-02-2009, 07:00 PM

It's because all living things are interconnected.

I don't really disagree with that.

As the great Carl Sagan once said, we're all made of star stuff. Everything in this lovely universe is interconnected.

spankyfrank

12-02-2009, 07:00 PM

Not at all.

I know many people who found their own path and rejected the teachings of their parents, teachers, and clergy.

Myself included.

Yes but your parents set your moral compass. You can make your own decisions at any time but how you feel about those decisions depend on how your moral compass was set.

underdog

12-02-2009, 07:01 PM

Not at all.

I know many people who found their own path and rejected the teachings of their parents, teachers, and clergy.

Myself included.

I think Ron Bennington talked about it one day, that even if you're rejecting what your parents taught you, you're still reacting to them. They're still training you.

GregoryJoseph

12-02-2009, 07:02 PM

Yes but your parents set your moral compass. You can make your own decisions at any time but how you feel about those decisions depend on how your moral compass was set.

Nonsense.

There are serial killers who came from "perfect" homes as well as ones that were abused.

Good people have bad kids and vice versa.

There is always a choice.

midwestjeff

12-02-2009, 07:02 PM

That's absurd.

So you're saying the death penalty is a deterrent?

So is prison?

I don't buy it.

I'll tell Pavlov the bad news.

GregoryJoseph

12-02-2009, 07:03 PM

I think Ron Bennington talked about it one day, that even if you're rejecting what your parents taught you, you're still reacting to them. They're still training you.

No. You can grow and become an adult and realize your parents are just other adults, not mythical creatures.

If you're still rebelling you're reacting.

If you grow into being your own person you aren't being "trained" in any way.

TheMojoPin

12-02-2009, 07:07 PM

This thread took a turn for the awesome.

This is good stuff.

underdog

12-02-2009, 07:08 PM

No. You can grow and become an adult and realize your parents are just other adults, not mythical creatures.

If you're still rebelling you're reacting.

If you grow into being your own person you aren't being "trained" in any way.

But as you grow, you're going on a path, you're choosing your morals. Your reactions and instincts are being trained. You're listening to your parents (and other family members), either to do or not do as they do. But they still are helping pave your path, even further in life.

I really love this thread.

underdog

12-02-2009, 07:09 PM

This thread took a turn for the awesome.

This is good stuff.

Seriously. This is fantastic.

GregoryJoseph

12-02-2009, 07:10 PM

But as you grow, you're going on a path, you're choosing your morals. Your reactions and instincts are being trained. You're listening to your parents (and other family members), either to do or not do as they do. But they still are helping pave your path, even further in life.

I really love this thread.

I don't think you choose your morals so much as they choose you.

I think we all have a "conscience" for lack of a better word.

It's whether or not we choose to ignore it.

While I think it's difficult to break free from some of the things we were taught early in life, it's certainly not impossible.

Do you think and act just like your parents? Do you have the same views about most moral issues?

spankyfrank

12-02-2009, 07:11 PM

Does anybody read my posts? I feel a little neglected when people are repeating what I say.

TheMojoPin

12-02-2009, 07:12 PM

You're my higher purpose, spankyfrank.

spankyfrank

12-02-2009, 07:13 PM

You're my higher purpose, spankyfrank.

That's just unsettling......

TheMojoPin

12-02-2009, 07:15 PM

Alright, now you're my vendetta.

spankyfrank

12-02-2009, 07:16 PM

Alright, now you're my vendetta.

that's even more unsettling!!!

underdog

12-02-2009, 07:17 PM

Do you think and act just like your parents? Do you have the same views about most moral issues?

No, not at all. But knowing how they felt and acted helped me choose my morality, whether it was because I agreed with them or because I saw what they were doing and disagreed with it.

I'm not saying your parents are the end-all, be-all for morality, and it's certainly not impossible to break away from early teachings. I think that's what all adults should do (but a lot don't). Growing up, you're provided a guide, you need to choose your own path as you grow.

underdog

12-02-2009, 07:18 PM

I don't think you choose your morals so much as they choose you.

I think we all have a "conscience" for lack of a better word.

It's whether or not we choose to ignore it.

Do you think the majority of your conscience is learned or is with you when you're born?

GregoryJoseph

12-02-2009, 07:19 PM

Do you think the majority of your conscience is learned or is with you when you're born?

I honestly believe it's within us from birth, but doesn't really mature until we do.

keithy_19

12-02-2009, 08:09 PM

I honestly believe it's within us from birth, but doesn't really mature until we do.

I don't know about that. There are people from other cultures who have a completely different mindset than you and most Americans do.

I do think that are certain things that are simply good and evil. Though even they get muddled.

underdog

12-02-2009, 08:43 PM

I honestly believe it's within us from birth, but doesn't really mature until we do.

That seems about right to me, as well.

yojimbo7248

12-03-2009, 02:37 AM

I find that there is a natural inclination toward being a giving, compassionate, kind person or a selfish prick. I see too many kids that are either one or the other. I see too many people who grew up in wonderful families, taught excellent values, are members of organizations based on goodness toward others and yet are back-stabbing miserable human beings.

sailor

12-03-2009, 02:45 AM

A.J.

12-03-2009, 03:01 AM

A purpose or power greater than just yourself.

I believe in my special purpose.

yojimbo7248

12-03-2009, 03:07 AM

there was a study that came out a few days ago showing altruism in infants/small children before it would have been taught. this doesn't show up in monkeys at any age. it's an inherent trait of the species, it would seem. it also disputes gvac's connectedness thesis as it should then show up in other species as well, i'd think.

I'm assuming altruism doesn't show up in some. either way, good evidence pointing to your religious beliefs have little to do with how compassionate, good you are to other people. Sure, you might be a Christian who feels guilty about lying, cheating, being disloyal and begs for forgiveness but if you are wired to be a selfish prick, you will be one. I'm starting to believe that assholes serve a natural purpose and are an inescapable part of society.

Furtherman

12-03-2009, 05:40 AM

Funny...I believe the exact opposite.

With the exception of god's gift to man, of course, your eminence.

I don't really disagree with that.

As the great Carl Sagan once said, we're all made of star stuff. Everything in this lovely universe is interconnected.

That's why I said god is a supernova. Every atom in us and the earth was created in a supernova.

I find that there is a natural inclination toward being a giving, compassionate, kind person or a selfish prick. I see too many kids that are either one or the other. I see too many people who grew up in wonderful families, taught excellent values, are members of organizations based on goodness toward others and yet are back-stabbing miserable human beings.

The natural inclination toward being, let's say, "good", is instinctual when humans are together. It's a survival instinct. When the group is happy, it's easier to survive.

Those who become "bad" in those groups are usually selfish, and looking out for their own. Greed. It's a choice you can make.

But we're all capable of doing whatever it takes to survive. We're all one natural disaster away from eating each other. It's just your choice on how you want to survive.

foodcourtdruide

12-03-2009, 06:01 AM

What about animals? Cats react much differently around a sad person (they're usually very comforting and caring). Is that because they believe in God?

Animals are different because they don't have the intelligence to make the decisions we make.

Why would anyone be unselfish? Why does compassion exist in people?

Furtherman

12-03-2009, 08:25 AM

Animals lack the imagination to create gods.

foodcourtdruide

12-03-2009, 08:37 AM

Animals lack the imagination to create gods.

Or the awareness, depends on your perspective.

Serpico1103

12-03-2009, 03:42 PM

Animals lack the imagination to create gods.

I would say they lack the need to create gods.
As a species we create gods to fill a void. That is why all cultures have them, that is way they follow a pattern.
We are filling a psychological void. Mr. B turned me onto Joseph Campbell's "Power of Myth", a fun and educational watch.

keithy_19

12-03-2009, 04:30 PM

That's why I said god is a supernova. Every atom in us and the earth was created in a supernova.

I may be wrong, but I think this was what Edgar Cayce felt. Well, more that God is in all of us.

GregoryJoseph

12-03-2009, 07:13 PM

To feel you have a purpose other than your own is just the human ego getting in the way.

Funny...I believe the exact opposite.

With the exception of god's gift to man, of course, your eminence.

Wait...WHAT?!?!?!

YOU think your only purpose is yourself.

I suggested there is a greater purpose, and yet you think I'M the one with an ego???

Please explain...

TheMojoPin

12-03-2009, 07:15 PM

His said he has his own purpose.

Not that he is his own purpose.

Big difference.

keithy_19

12-03-2009, 07:55 PM

His said he has his own purpose.

Not that he is his own purpose.

Big difference.

But is having his own purpose his own purpose?

Recyclerz

12-03-2009, 08:00 PM

On another message board that I read frequently, this topic does indeed come up a lot, and people do say things along those lines, of "How can you be moral and good if you do not believe in a higher power". They are basically saying people would be murdering and raping daily without a God to answer to, because otherwise you have no consequences in the afterlife. It's a legitimate topic.

I think Missy's point here deserves to be examined a bit more closely, because it kind of links to the core of Western Civilization's belief structure and philosophical development. Ever since Socrates and Plato there has been the idea in our culture that there is an absolute standard that exists in the universe separate and apart from man and that man discovers it through enlightenment. Judiasm>Christianity>Islam took that concept and planted it at the center of their belief systems and called it God. (This, I would argue, makes the western monotheistic religions much different in kind that the earlier nature-based or pagan religions.) If you assume that "Right" & "Wrong" exist beyond man, regardless of whether you call it God or not, it is going to give you a specific kind of world view.

Nietzsche, among others, (hey I didn't read all the stuff I was supposed to in college), examined the logical consequences for Western morality if God was "dead." If there is no external standard to be held to, then each society creates its own standard of good and bad (moral relativism). This can lead to situations where societies create a standard of "good" that would be morally abhorrent to most of us. (Eg. "honor" killings in southwest Asia.)

This is not to say I'm picking a side here. I'm still working it out myself.

Check that. I think we can all agree that Bill Maher is a really bad advocate for atheism. His movie, Irreligulous, suuuhhuuuuuuhhhuuuucked!

keithy_19

12-03-2009, 10:30 PM

Check that. I think we can all agree that Bill Maher is a really bad advocate for atheism. His movie, Irreligulous, suuuhhuuuuuuhhhuuuucked!

Bill Maher is just terrible. That movie was awful. It could have been good, but it sadly wasn't. It was doomed when he started it, because of him.

And atheism, to me, is a type of religion itself. They have a concrete belief that there is no God and some atheists want to force that on others. Just like christians, jews, muslims and other religious groups have a concrete belief and want others to believe in what they believe.

Furtherman

12-04-2009, 05:36 AM

Wait...WHAT?!?!?!

YOU think your only purpose is yourself.

I suggested there is a greater purpose, and yet you think I'M the one with an ego???

Please explain...

His said he has his own purpose.

Not that he is his own purpose.

Big difference.

Thank you.

The purpose for any animal is to survive. We're a little smarter so we've laid down some rules so pretty much everyone can get along with each other and our species can continue. Thinking that you're alive for some greater purpose is the human ego itchin' your brain. It could be argued that the ego is an instinctual survival tool as well, but in reality there is no difference between the mightiest kind and the lowest peasant.

TheMojoPin

12-04-2009, 07:32 AM

And atheism, to me, is a type of religion itself. They have a concrete belief that there is no God and some atheists want to force that on others. Just like christians, jews, muslims and other religious groups have a concrete belief and want others to believe in what they believe.

That's your definition of a religion?

I think you're leaving a few things out there.

foodcourtdruide

12-04-2009, 07:56 AM

That's your definition of a religion?

I think you're leaving a few things out there.

They definitely have some form of organization, as is evidenced by these billboards existing. I agree with Keithy.

booster11373

12-04-2009, 08:20 AM

ATHIESM IS NOT A RELIGION........

There is no dogma

There is no central tenets of belief

There is no overall organization

Amen Darwin and Dawkins

spankyfrank

12-04-2009, 08:43 AM

Here is my definition of religion.

Basically it is an answer to that all important question of "Why?". It could also be thought of as a way of thinking. Faith is believing something is right even though you don't necessarily have concrete evidence of it.

My own personal feeling is that atheism is an umbrella term. Under it you would probably have two different ways of thinking. One is Nihlism (sp?) where in the person believes that there is no meaning to what we call existence. The other is agnosticism (sp?) where the person doesn't necessarily believe there isn't a God but just that there is no way we can know anything about him or if he exsists.

spankyfrank

12-04-2009, 08:48 AM

Bill Maher is just terrible. That movie was awful. It could have been good, but it sadly wasn't. It was doomed when he started it, because of him.

Bill Maher has a vendetta against religion. I honestly feel he was abused by a priest. He missed the point. Religion isn't inherently bad. As a matter of fact I made this point earlier that at the very least it can provide a set of guidelines that a person can live their life by. Those 10 Commandments aren't a terrible way to live your life.

foodcourtdruide

12-04-2009, 08:54 AM

ATHIESM IS NOT A RELIGION........

There is no dogma

There is no central tenets of belief

There is no overall organization

Amen Darwin and Dawkins

How is the disbelief in God not a central tenet of belief? And there is some organization, as is evidenced by these billboards existing to begin with. There are Atheist groups.

If someone believed in Jesus, but didn't go to church, would you call them a Christian?

spankyfrank

12-04-2009, 08:59 AM

How is the disbelief in God not a central tenet of belief? And there is some organization, as is evidenced by these billboards existing to begin with. There are Atheist groups.

If someone believed in Jesus, but didn't go to church, would you call them a Christian?

But what other belief does an atheist have besides that he or she does not believe in God? Do they think there is no answer or do they think we haven't figured it out yet?

foodcourtdruide

12-04-2009, 09:01 AM

But what other belief does an atheist have besides that he or she does not believe in God? Do they think there is no answer or do they think we haven't figured it out yet?

Evolution is one belief I hear Atheists speak about a lot, along with prayer in schools. They are definitely a group of people that have common opinions. Why not call it a religion?

Also, I thought people who haven't figured it out yet were considered agnostic? Is that correct?

spankyfrank

12-04-2009, 09:08 AM

Evolution is one belief I hear Atheists speak about a lot, along with prayer in schools. They are definitely a group of people that have common opinions. Why not call it a religion?

Also, I thought people who haven't figured it out yet were considered agnostic? Is that correct?

Evolution and science I feel fall under the agnostic label. Those are answers based in logic. But from what I gather an atheist is just a person who doesn't believe in God. There's more to it than just not believing or believing. Atheism is more of a label rather than a way of thinking.

foodcourtdruide

12-04-2009, 09:09 AM

Evolution and science I feel fall under the agnostic label. Those are answers based in logic. But from what I gather an atheist is just a person who doesn't believe in God. There's more to it than just not believing or believing. Atheism is more of a label rather than a way of thinking.

One could say Christianity is just one who believes in Jesus. There are just many other beliefs associated with that one belief.

KatPw

12-04-2009, 09:17 AM

Bill Maher is just terrible. That movie was awful. It could have been good, but it sadly wasn't. It was doomed when he started it, because of him.

And atheism, to me, is a type of religion itself. They have a concrete belief that there is no God and some atheists want to force that on others. Just like christians, jews, muslims and other religious groups have a concrete belief and want others to believe in what they believe.I have a concrete belief that A squared + B squared= C squared. Does that mean I worship Pythagoras?

There is nothing concrete about Religion. As Mark Twain said "Faith is believing what you know ain't so". Math is concrete because it can be proven with actual facts. Religion is based on faith and feelings. I don't have a feeling that 2 + 2=4 I have concrete proof that it equals 4.

How is the disbelief in God not a central tenet of belief? And there is some organization, as is evidenced by these billboards existing to begin with. There are Atheist groups.

If someone believed in Jesus, but didn't go to church, would you call them a Christian?
Lack of belief is not a belief. If not believing in something is a religion than is not believing in Astrology a religion? Not believing in Alchemy? How many other religions do you not believe in if you are a Christian? Does that mean your religion is based on not believing in the ideas and doctrines of other religions?

And Atheist groups are mostly lobbying groups that are trying to keep a separation of Church and State. They have lectures and the occasional get together, but they don't have a worship service. They do not have any type of sacraments for Atheists to participate in. If having a group equals being a religion than Boy Scouts is a religion as well as 4-H, Girl Scouts, Black Panthers, Red Hat Society, the AMA, ADA, the Whatley posse, the Pests, Big Ass card members, etc. could all be considered religions.

spankyfrank

12-04-2009, 09:18 AM

One could say Christianity is just one who believes in Jesus. There are just many other beliefs associated with that one belief.

While that is true, Religion offers an answer to the question "Why are we here?". There's more than just believing in Jesus. Why do you believe in Jesus? and so on.

Atheism doesn't afford any answers. It's actually an anti-religion.

KatPw

12-04-2009, 09:20 AM

Evolution is one belief I hear Atheists speak about a lot, along with prayer in schools. They are definitely a group of people that have common opinions. Why not call it a religion?

Also, I thought people who haven't figured it out yet were considered agnostic? Is that correct?

So gravity is a belief then? What type of hats should our Gravity Pope wear? We need to get the design to the milliner.
A scientific belief is not a tenant of a religion.
ETA: And removing prayer from schools is wanted because of the separation of Church and State. Pray all you want at a private religious school.

spankyfrank

12-04-2009, 09:22 AM

Science and religion are two completely different ways of approaching the same question. One is based in logic the other in faith.

KatPw

12-04-2009, 09:23 AM

Science and religion are two completely different ways of approaching the same question. One is based in logic the other in faith.

Exactly.

foodcourtdruide

12-04-2009, 09:28 AM

Lack of belief is not a belief. If not believing in something is a religion than is not believing in Astrology a religion? Not believing in Alchemy? How many other religions do you not believe in if you are a Christian? Does that mean your religion is based on not believing in the ideas and doctrines of other religions?

And Atheist groups are mostly lobbying groups that are trying to keep a separation of Church and State. They have lectures and the occasional get together, but they don't have a worship service. They do not have any type of sacraments for Atheists to participate in. If having a group equals being a religion than Boy Scouts is a religion as well as 4-H, Girl Scouts, Black Panthers, Red Hat Society, the AMA, ADA, the Whatley posse, the Pests, Big Ass card members, etc. could all be considered religions.

Lack of belief is a belief. Atheists are a group of people that do not believe in God and thus have other beliefs that spawn off that belief. If there was a group of people called Widgets that did not believe in Astronomy and organized to do things like put up billboards and people wrote books about the topic, then the Widgets group would be a religion. Maybe the broader question is, what makes a religion a religion?

- Core beliefs - check
- Organization - check

I think bringing The Girl Scouts, AMA, etc into this discussion is not fair. The main belief in atheism reflects the opinion that there is no God. Those other groups do not have that quality and do not serve this purpose. Sign up for any social networking site, they usually have a combobox where you could choose your religion. I almost ALWAYS see Atheist, but I have never seen Girl Scout.

KatPw

12-04-2009, 09:44 AM

Lack of belief is a belief. Atheists are a group of people that do not believe in God and thus have other beliefs that spawn off that belief. If there was a group of people called Widgets that did not believe in Astronomy and organized to do things like put up billboards and people wrote books about the topic, then the Widgets group would be a religion. Maybe the broader question is, what makes a religion a religion?

- Core beliefs - check
- Organization - check

I think bringing The Girl Scouts, AMA, etc into this discussion is not fair. The main belief in atheism reflects the opinion that there is no God. Those other groups do not have that quality and do not serve this purpose. Sign up for any social networking site, they usually have a combobox where you could choose your religion. I almost ALWAYS see Atheist, but I have never seen Girl Scout.

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

Atheists do not have a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe. Each individual has their own ideas about this. Many Atheists may have the same idea but that is not a representation of the whole and it is not a tenant. There is also no moral code governing Atheists. They also do not have a set of practices agreed upon by the members and there is no central leadership. There is pretty much no leadership. Just because you are a non-believer does not mean you agree with Hitchens, Dawkins, Dan Barker, Annie Lori Gaylor, Dennett, Harris, etc.

And I think putting in the Girl Scouts and such was very appropriate. They have a core value and belief system, they have a set of practices and ceremonies that have been passed down for generations, they have a central leadership system. They work together as an organization. Seems very much like a religion according to what you said above regarding Atheists.

foodcourtdruide

12-04-2009, 09:53 AM

Atheists do not have a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe. Each individual has their own ideas about this. Many Atheists may have the same idea but that is not a representation of the whole and it is not a tenant. There is also no moral code governing Atheists. They also do not have a set of practices agreed upon by the members and there is no central leadership. There is pretty much no leadership. Just because you are a non-believer does not mean you agree with Hitchens, Dawkins, Dan Barker, Annie Lori Gaylor, Dennett, Harris, etc.

And I think putting in the Girl Scouts and such was very appropriate. They have a core value and belief system, they have a set of practices and ceremonies that have been passed down for generations, they have a central leadership system. They work together as an organization. Seems very much like a religion according to what you said above regarding Atheists.

I think we are going in circles. I think the belief that there is not a God is a belief. Atheists share this belief, hence they are lumped into the group known as "Atheist". If they did not organize and did not have texts dedicated to their theories, I would agree that Atheism is not a religion more easily. I agree with the 3 criteria you posted (by the way, where did you get that from?) and I submit atheism adheres to this partly. What it does not adhere to is that there are no practices associated with atheism, though I think that could potentially change. Atheism seems to be a reaction to Christianity/Islam/Judaism, and as it gains in popularity and influence I think rituals will begin (ie. if you are an atheist you wear some type of pendant). So upon further thought, I change my original statement. I think atheism is heading TOWARDS becoming a religion.

TheMojoPin

12-04-2009, 10:05 AM

Based on what?

Furtherman

12-04-2009, 10:10 AM

Religion isn't inherently bad.

As Mark Twain said "Faith is believing what you know ain't so".

I agree that religion isn't inherently bad, but Twain has the point that all believers who scorn the non-believers (mostly quietly to themselves) fail to realize.

Believers' feel that god's beliefs are their own, but that makes their beliefs more egocentric than what they feel of other people's beliefs. What people think is god's will is merely a self-conscious strengthening of their own beliefs. It's ingrained when they are children and cemented through family and social traditions. This can work with almost any concept, including ignorance and evil. It reveals the whole notion of a god as an illogical concept.

And arguing over what is an atheist will not serve any purpose either. I don't consider myself one, but I also don't think "Oh I better not do that because god will count that against me." I make decisions based on what I need. So do all believers, but then they have this act of "confession" to clear them of any guilt they might feel, which is only guilt that was instilled on them by others. It really is a brilliant concept to keep people in check and coming back.

foodcourtdruide

12-04-2009, 10:16 AM

Based on what?

Why do I believe practice will become part of Atheism? I don't know man. Just a belief I have. If it flows more into the mainstream, people will want the commonality between them to be recognized, just like Christians wear a cross. Maybe there will be a must-read book for Atheists? Maybe there will be a central figure/leader? I don't think these scenario are so out of the realm of possibility.

TheMojoPin

12-04-2009, 10:29 AM

Why do I believe practice will become part of Atheism? I don't know man. Just a belief I have. If it flows more into the mainstream, people will want the commonality between them to be recognized, just like Christians wear a cross. Maybe there will be a must-read book for Atheists? Maybe there will be a central figure/leader? I don't think these scenario are so out of the realm of possibility.

All of that seems to hinge on you assuming that atheism must function as a religion does.

foodcourtdruide

12-04-2009, 10:44 AM

All of that seems to hinge on you assuming that atheism must function as a religion does.

Not denying that. This is definitely an opinion of mine.

Son of Muta

12-04-2009, 10:48 AM

Maybe there will be a must-read book for Atheists?

http://ebooks-imgs.connect.com/ebooks/product/400/000/000/000/000/052/268/400000000000000052268_s4.jpg

http://howgoodisthat.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/god-delusion-728768.jpg

foodcourtdruide

12-04-2009, 11:08 AM

http://ebooks-imgs.connect.com/ebooks/product/400/000/000/000/000/052/268/400000000000000052268_s4.jpg

http://howgoodisthat.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/god-delusion-728768.jpg

Yup, the ingrediants are falling into place. I don't see what the big deal is.

spankyfrank

12-04-2009, 11:20 AM

Ok so here's my question pertaining to the topic:

Can an atheist be a good person? If so where does his moral compass get set inside his religion?

TheMojoPin

12-04-2009, 11:33 AM

Yup, the ingrediants are falling into place. I don't see what the big deal is.

Because those are only two books on the topic and hardly THE word or the final word on the matter. They are in no way similar to or close to be a sigular text of devotion and faith a la the Koran or Bible. It's like saying all those people who love vampires are a religion and that Twilight is like the Bible.

Furtherman

12-04-2009, 11:41 AM

Twilight is like the Bible.

Well, they are both fiction.

yojimbo7248

12-04-2009, 11:44 AM

I can't stand that Christopher Hitchens book. He is flat out wrong about Buddhism. Not just a little off but ridiculously inaccurate. He wants to prove that all religions are idiotic and stretches, manipulates, and just makes up 'evidence' that backs up his argument. it's a piece of crap - give it a pass. I always like Bertrand Russell's "Why I am Not a Christian" for a better thought out, stronger argument for atheism.

TheMojoPin

12-04-2009, 11:50 AM

I always like Bertrand Russell's "Why I am Not a Christian" for a better thought out, stronger argument for atheism.

Awesome book.

foodcourtdruide

12-04-2009, 11:59 AM

Because those are only two books on the topic and hardly THE word or the final word on the matter. They are in no way similar to or close to be a sigular text of devotion and faith a la the Koran or Bible. It's like saying all those people who love vampires are a religion and that Twilight is like the Bible.

You don't liken those two to cult like figures? I agree that those books are not in any way the "must-read" book I was referring to earlier.

TheMojoPin

12-04-2009, 12:19 PM

You don't liken those two to cult like figures? I agree that those books are not in any way the "must-read" book I was referring to earlier.

No, because neither person is dictating the almost the entire lives of other people as cult leaders do. An atheist's life is not defined or run by their atheism outside of the personal rejection of the idea of a higher power. There's no sense of, "how can I live my life as a good atheist today?".

spankyfrank

12-04-2009, 12:24 PM

foodcourtdruide

12-04-2009, 12:46 PM

No, because neither person is dictating the almost the entire lives of other people as cult leaders do. An atheist's life is not defined or run by their atheism outside of the personal rejection of the idea of a higher power. There's no sense of, "how can I live my life as a good atheist today?".

I was thinking of them more as "cult like figure" such as a Howard Stern, or how people go to the Rocky Horror Picture Show and throw bread at the screen. Not David Koresh.

And I think some atheists lives ARE defined by their role as an atheist. As is evidenced by these billboards, some people take their atheism very seriously.

I agreed with Kat, we are NOT at a point where Atheism is a full-blown religion. However, I just think we're heading there.

TheMojoPin

12-04-2009, 12:50 PM

I was thinking of them more as "cult like figure" such as a Howard Stern, or how people go to the Rocky Horror Picture Show and throw bread at the screen. Not David Koresh.

Then you're just talking about a general cult of personality in a "pop culture" context, which is a pretty huge difference from it being on the verge of becoming some kind of religion.

And I think some atheists lives ARE defined by their role as an atheist. As is evidenced by these billboards, some people take their atheism very seriously.

People can take anything seirously without being a religion. A billboard in no way indicates that there's some kind of atheism "religion" forming.

I agreed with Kat, we are NOT at a point where Atheism is a full-blown religion. However, I just think we're heading there.

You've yet to point out how except by making broad points that jump from point A to point Z (ie - atheists put billboards = atheism is becoming a religion). You've got to back up your theory if you're going to make up that conclusion.

foodcourtdruide

12-04-2009, 01:39 PM

Then you're just talking about a general cult of personality in a "pop culture" context, which is a pretty huge difference from it being on the verge of becoming some kind of religion.

Why? I think it's a good indication of people looking to follow. They may not fit the bill, but the need is there.

People can take anything seirously without being a religion. A billboard in no way indicates that there's some kind of atheism "religion" forming.

But it does indicate that there's an actual group, or organization. Which is one of the requirements for a religion.

You've yet to point out how except by making broad points that jump from point A to point Z (ie - atheists put billboards = atheism is becoming a religion). You've got to back up your theory if you're going to make up that conclusion.

This is just an observation, I don't think either of us could present facts for this argument. Could you prove that atheism is NOT becoming a religion?

spankyfrank

12-04-2009, 01:42 PM

This is just an observation, I don't think either of us could present facts for this argument. Could you prove that atheism is NOT becoming a religion?

Does atheism give a set of guidelines on how a person should live their life? EVERY SINGLE RELIGION HAS THIS.

Science is neutral information. There is nothing good or bad about it.

Serpico1103

12-04-2009, 01:53 PM

This is just an observation, I don't think either of us could present facts for this argument. Could you prove that atheism is NOT becoming a religion?

Your argument is that some people are embracing atheism as a religion?
People can embrace baseball as a religion. It doesn't make it a religion in the sense that Christianity and Islam are religions.
The boy scouts could fit a definition of religion, but not "the" definition when we are discussing Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hindu, etc.

TheMojoPin

12-04-2009, 10:03 PM

Why? I think it's a good indication of people looking to follow. They may not fit the bill, but the need is there.

This is a huge stretch. You're basically saying that anyone who reads a book is potentially looking to "follow" the author. Hitchens and Dawkins are just men. Who is looking to them as anything more, or even as leaders? They hold no position of power. The gulf between what they represent and what iconic figures in religion hold is beyond gigantic.

But it does indicate that there's an actual group, or organization. Which is one of the requirements for a religion.

In the barest, most basic comparison possible. Again, you're stretching this way beyond what it actually is in an attempt to fill the absence of evidence to back up your theory. And this only indicates one organization of people wh consider themselves atheists. They do not speak for alla theists, nor do all atheists look to them for anything. If one of your key arguments is that an organizaton means something similar to a religion, well, you've dug yourself an incredibly deep hole. By that logic, what ISN'T a religion or on the way to being a religion?

This is just an observation, I don't think either of us could present facts for this argument. Could you prove that atheism is NOT becoming a religion?

You're asking someone to prove a negative? OK, easy...atheism is not a religion. How do I know that? Because of the complete and total absence of any kind of evidence that it is a religion or is becoming a religion.

keithy_19

12-05-2009, 06:56 PM

Can an atheist be a good person? If so where does his moral compass get set inside his religion?

By doing all the things people of religion do but claiming that they did it on their own.

:smoke:

GregoryJoseph

12-05-2009, 06:57 PM

For some reason, whenever I read this thread title I think of Nick Lowe's song "Cruel To Be Kind."

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foodcourtdruide

12-05-2009, 08:02 PM

This is a huge stretch. You're basically saying that anyone who reads a book is potentially looking to "follow" the author. Hitchens and Dawkins are just men. Who is looking to them as anything more, or even as leaders? They hold no position of power. The gulf between what they represent and what iconic figures in religion hold is beyond gigantic.

In the barest, most basic comparison possible. Again, you're stretching this way beyond what it actually is in an attempt to fill the absence of evidence to back up your theory. And this only indicates one organization of people wh consider themselves atheists. They do not speak for alla theists, nor do all atheists look to them for anything. If one of your key arguments is that an organizaton means something similar to a religion, well, you've dug yourself an incredibly deep hole. By that logic, what ISN'T a religion or on the way to being a religion?

You're asking someone to prove a negative? OK, easy...atheism is not a religion. How do I know that? Because of the complete and total absence of any kind of evidence that it is a religion or is becoming a religion.

Answering this thread on my blackberry is incredibly difficult. Ok, I agree that atheism is not a religion, however I do believe it could potentially become one. My reasons are that I'm beginning to see fanatical behavior, both in news stories and from personal experience (which, I know does not mean shit to anyone but me. Which is why I keep stating this is my opinion).

There seems to be a slightly arrogant belief that atheists as a group are beyond the things they accuse christians of, and I submit they are not. This billboard story is so significant because its one of the first time a group of crazy atheists has acted like a group of crazy christians.

Atheism is certainly a belief, atheists have certainly joined groups, why is it so far out of the realm of possibility that recognized doctrine is the next step? What's to stop. Group of 50 atheists from getting together at weekly meetings and reading from the same Darwin passage at every meeting, or citing Hitchens comments to validate their "faith". While, this may not be happening now, I don't see it as "such a stretch".

foodcourtdruide

12-05-2009, 08:04 PM

Your argument is that some people are embracing atheism as a religion?
People can embrace baseball as a religion. It doesn't make it a religion in the sense that Christianity and Islam are religions.
The boy scouts could fit a definition of religion, but not "the" definition when we are discussing Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hindu, etc.

The baseball point is a good one. What do you think would need to happen for someone to officially consider their religion baseball?

GregoryJoseph

12-05-2009, 08:05 PM

foodcourtdruide

12-05-2009, 08:05 PM

Does atheism give a set of guidelines on how a person should live their life? EVERY SINGLE RELIGION HAS THIS.

Science is neutral information. There is nothing good or bad about it.

I agree that atheism is not a religion.

TheMojoPin

12-05-2009, 08:11 PM

How are these billboards crazy?

What "fanatical" things are you seeing that inidcates that atheism is becoming a religion?

Atheism is certainly a belief, atheists have certainly joined groups, why is it so far out of the realm of possibility that recognized doctrine is the next step? What's to stop. Group of 50 atheists from getting together at weekly meetings and reading from the same Darwin passage at every meeting, or citing Hitchens comments to validate their "faith". While, this may not be happening now, I don't see it as "such a stretch".

No offense, but this is a really absurd scenario you're describing. There's no set dogma or figures to worship with atheism or to even unite most atheists outside of the rejection of the idea of a higher power. You're basing this on the idea that atheists are essentially obsessed with Darwin or Hitchens validating and even defining their lives as people who are religious often do. What is this based on? You're making huge leaps in logic with these assumptions because you're ignoring critical things needed for a religion to form. Your flimsy, loose descriptions of a basis of a religion basically apply to almost any social organization or political group. If this is what you really think are the seeds of a religion then I can only assume you think that new religions are currently cropping up everywhere.

TheMojoPin

12-05-2009, 08:15 PM

The simple truth, foodie, is that atheists sound just as crazy as the religious fanatics they detest.

To state that they know for a FACT that there is no higher power is just as absurd as someone saying they know for a fact there IS.

You can question things, but we'll never know 100% one way or another.

You really think someone recognizing the inherrent fragility and often random nature of human mortality is as absurd as someone who tries to justify a senseless and tragic death as "God's plan?"

GregoryJoseph

12-05-2009, 08:17 PM

You really think someone recognizing the inherrent fragility and often random nature of human mortality is as absurd as someone who tries to justify a senseless and tragic death as "God's plan?"

Yes.

Because they believe the "inherent fragility" and "random nature of human mortality" is PROOF there is no God.

They can't prove God DOESN'T exist any more than a believe can prove He DOES.

TheMojoPin

12-05-2009, 08:19 PM

Yes.

Because they believe the "inherent fragility" and "random nature of human mortality" is PROOF there is no God.

They can't prove God DOESN'T exist any more than a believe can prove He DOES.

The obligations for proving something does exist and does not exist are not the same. It's not an equal expectation. The burden of proof is on one as opposed to the other.

For the record, I'm not an atheist, but I'd much rather hear someone's condolances over a targic death I experienced because it was something bad and not to hear it spun as being part of "God's plan." Personally, one is clearly more absurd than the other, but that's jsut me.

GregoryJoseph

12-05-2009, 08:21 PM

The obligations for proving something does exist and does not exist are not the same. It's not an equal expectation. The burden of proof is on someone arguing for a point.

For the record, I'm not an atheist, but I'd much rather hear someone's condolances over a targic death I experienced because it was something bad and not to hear it spun as being part of "God's plan." Personally, one is clearly more absurd than the other, but that's jsut me.

Not everyone who believes in a higher power thinks it's "God's plan" every time someone good dies.

Many believe God doesn't micro manage.

That doesn't mean He doesn't exist any more than thinking that every time an evil person dies it's proof he does.

TheMojoPin

12-05-2009, 08:23 PM

Not everyone who believes in a higher power thinks it's "God's plan" every time someone good dies.

Many believe God doesn't micro manage.

That doesn't mean He doesn't exist any more than thinking that every time an evil person dies it's proof he does.

Not everyone does, but where are you going to find comparable responses from an atheist? The opposite of "God's plan" seemingly would be someone saying, "oh, who cares, what does it matter? We're just nothing," but that's nihilism.

I just think it's kind of a wimpy answer to act like both are equally "absurd" when we've seen nothing show up as time has gone on that validates the claims of religion when it comes to creation and miracles and so on. All that's continued is that religion requires faith to exist, which is fine, but it's not going to stakc up.

Look at it this way: put aside faith and imagine people in an debate for the beliefs of religion vs. the "beliefs" of atheism. It's going to be incredibly lopsided. If anything, it's the lopsidedness that has strengthen religion as time has gone on because it is totally reliant on faith. In the face of growing evidence that disproves many of the claims of religion it's served to strengthen the faith because one NEEDS that faith to keep going with those beliefs. You could argue that religion needs atheism and what it represents to keep the faith strong.

foodcourtdruide

12-05-2009, 08:59 PM

How are these billboards crazy?

What "fanatical" things are you seeing that inidcates that atheism is becoming a religion?

No offense, but this is a really absurd scenario you're describing. There's no set dogma or figures to worship with atheism or to even unite most atheists outside of the rejection of the idea of a higher power. You're basing this on the idea that atheists are essentially obsessed with Darwin or Hitchens validating and even defining their lives as people who are religious often do. What is this based on? You're making huge leaps in logic with these assumptions because you're ignoring critical things needed for a religion to form. Your flimsy, loose descriptions of a basis of a religion basically apply to almost any social organization or political group. If this is what you really think are the seeds of a religion then I can only assume you think that new religions are currently cropping up everywhere.

If the roles were reversed, and Christians were putting up billboards mocking (hyperbole or accurate?) Atheism, you wouldn't think those Christians were extreme?

Why is my scenario absurd? Do you think the lord's prayer was part of Catholicism the minute Catholicism began? As time goes on, it's completely plausible that there will be ritual amongst Atheists, especially if Atheism blends in more with the main stream. What is my leap in logic? There are groups of people who share a belief on the creation of the universe, why is it impossible to think this group could organize into a religion?

Look at this
http://atheists.meetup.com/

Don't you think these people probably meet up and talk about being atheists and the issues Atheists face? I agree 100% that there is no "sacred" text recognized, but I believe one day there will be. I respect your opinion that there will not be, but to say my opinion is absurd, is absurd!

And religions DO crop up all the time. There are only a handful of major religions, but many religions exist. I'm having a difficult time finding a ballpark number, but do you disagree with that statement?

TheMojoPin

12-05-2009, 09:19 PM

If the roles were reversed, and Christians were putting up billboards mocking (hyperbole or accurate?) Atheism, you wouldn't think those Christians were extreme?

As these billboards did? No. Something actually extreme, like "atheists burn in Hell?" Yes.

Why is my scenario absurd? Do you think the lord's prayer was part of Catholicism the minute Catholicism began? As time goes on, it's completely plausible that there will be ritual amongst Atheists, especially if Atheism blends in more with the main stream. What is my leap in logic? There are groups of people who share a belief on the creation of the universe, why is it impossible to think this group could organize into a religion?

Because you can't have a religion without faith in a higher power. Without that you don't have a religion.

Look at this
http://atheists.meetup.com/

You can find meet up groups for movies, TV shows, sports teams, political movements, social movements, etc., etc., etc..

Don't you think these people probably meet up and talk about being atheists and the issues Atheists face? I agree 100% that there is no "sacred" text recognized, but I believe one day there will be. I respect your opinion that there will not be, but to say my opinion is absurd, is absurd!

I don't think it is at all. You've yet to spell out or show evidence of how atheism is even remotely close to becoming a religion. I agree it's definitely a political, social and philisophical movement, but it's missing the critical aspect of a religion: a belief in a higher power. You cannot have a religion without that and you cannot be an atheist with that. Why are atheists going to decide to totally reverse the one thing that would be the reason any of them were organizing or even "existing" as atheists in the first place? That doesn't make any sense. It's basically impossible turn a philisophical concept into a religion because there are always going to be people who don't believe in a higher power. If atheism becomes a rleigion then atheism no longer exists, and that's impossible. You're never going to get to a point where EVERYONE believes in a higher power. That's why I think this is an absurd argument because it defeats itself.

And religions DO crop up all the time. There are only a handful of major religions, but many religions exist. I'm having a difficult time finding a ballpark number, but do you disagree with that statement?

Many religions do exist. Atheism cannot be a religion. Atheism and religion have to exist seperately from each other. It's impossible to suddenly be able to convince every atheist and would-be atheist to believe in any kind of higher power. What you're proposing is impossible. If a group of atheists decides that Dawkins is some kind of messiah, they are no longer atheists. Atheism simply cannot become a religion. The basic idea of philosophy does not lend itself to what you're proposing.

TripleSkeet

12-05-2009, 10:42 PM

I just think it's kind of a wimpy answer to act like both are equally "absurd" when we've seen nothing show up as time has gone on that validates the claims of religion when it comes to creation and miracles and so on.

Really? I guess maybe by definition. But Id say miracles happen.

When a kid is given 5 years to live with some disease and he winds up living 20? Yea medically its impressive and they cant give a reason why but in my eyes, thats a miracle.

Theres tons of other instances. That guy that fell 45 stories from the NY building when washing windows and lived? You can call it luck, I call it a miracle.

Not saying anyones right or wrong, but its just so fucking arrogant for ANYONE, including atheists, to presume THEY KNOW exactly how we all came to be and what is real and what isnt. Atheism is no more respectful a belief as Christianity or Buddhism or anything else.

At least I know when I die if Im wrong its no big whoop.

foodcourtdruide

12-05-2009, 10:53 PM

As these billboards did? No. Something actually extreme, like "atheists burn in Hell?" Yes.

Because you can't have a religion without faith in a higher power. Without that you don't have a religion.

You can find meet up groups for movies, TV shows, sports teams, political movements, social movements, etc., etc., etc..

I don't think it is at all. You've yet to spell out or show evidence of how atheism is even remotely close to becoming a religion. I agree it's definitely a political, social and philisophical movement, but it's missing the critical aspect of a religion: a belief in a higher power. You cannot have a religion without that and you cannot be an atheist with that. Why are atheists going to decide to totally reverse the one thing that would be the reason any of them were organizing or even "existing" as atheists in the first place? That doesn't make any sense. It's basically impossible turn a philisophical concept into a religion because there are always going to be people who don't believe in a higher power. If atheism becomes a rleigion then atheism no longer exists, and that's impossible. You're never going to get to a point where EVERYONE believes in a higher power. That's why I think this is an absurd argument because it defeats itself.

Many religions do exist. Atheism cannot be a religion. Atheism and religion have to exist seperately from each other. It's impossible to suddenly be able to convince every atheist and would-be atheist to believe in any kind of higher power. What you're proposing is impossible. If a group of atheists decides that Dawkins is some kind of messiah, they are no longer atheists. Atheism simply cannot become a religion. The basic idea of philosophy does not lend itself to what you're proposing.

Atheism is not the disbelief in religion, it is the disbelief in a deity. There are religions that do not believe in God. Most forms of Buddhism do not recognize a God. Atheism could be a religion becuase it is an opinion on existance.

I think this is the root of the disagreement we are having.

Furthermore, you are acting like there being no God is the fact, therefore you cannot have a religion based on a fact of science. However, there not being a God is an opinion based on faith, just like the notion of there being a God.

foodcourtdruide

12-05-2009, 11:00 PM

Also, Mojo, you keep asking me for evidence regarding Atheism turning into a religion, but it's just an opinion I have based on everything we've discussed in this thread. I fully admit that there is no smoking gun that leads me to believe this. I just think it being a social/political/philosophical movement tied to spiritual beliefs will eventually lead it down the road to being a religion. We are maybe just disagreeing on the definition of the word religion?

booster11373

12-06-2009, 12:26 AM

When atheists starting blowing up buses or killing doctors or maybe make women wear some kind of crazy outfit we can call them fanatical until then that can be the "soul" realm of theists

yojimbo7248

12-06-2009, 03:18 AM

Atheism is not the disbelief in religion, it is the disbelief in a deity. There are religions that do not believe in God. Most forms of Buddhism do not recognize a God.

FCD brings up a good point. Much of the debate, discussion here has treated religion and atheism as mutually exclusive. Most Zen organizations in Japan and the US are agnostic and many are atheist. The case of Zen shows how complicated the God-religion connection can be. I attend both the atheist Fire Lotus Temple in Brooklyn and a smaller Jewish Zen group on the Upper East Side. I also know a Catholic priest, Father Kennedy, who has his own Zen group in Hoboken.

Both the Jewish and Catholic groups are made up of people who believe strongly in the traditional God. Some treat Zen like yoga for stress release, others believe that they connect better to God through Zen meditation. Some in the atheist Zen groups don't think Jewish/Catholic Zen is real and many in those religions don't think you can be both a Zen believer/practitioner and a good Catholic/Jew. But I also know Christians that think you will be sent to hell for consorting with the devil if you do yoga.

It would probably take another thread to discuss the definition of 'religion'. My only point with bringing up Zen is that the old God believer-atheist battle is quickly becoming outdated. I am no big fan of most atheists I know (or at least their beliefs). They seem overly emotional about there being no god. They feel betrayed and angry that the big man in the sky who was supposed to take care of them as well as punish them turns out to be not real in their mind.

Atheists have rejected Old Man in the Sky Monotheistic God with the same certainty, arrogance and closed mindedness of the church. Why not have more imagination and think of how 'god' might exist in a very different way that the monotheistic religions believe? Why cling to the church's definition of God and then completely reject "Him"?

Atheists just come across as too angry most of the time. Kind of reminds me of how Fez gets angry with a god he no longer believes in because He allows bad things to happen to good people. It's almost as though they are not believing to get back at Him for not being the god they thought he should be.

Atheists remind me of satanists. By embracing satan rather than god, you are still working within the Christian belief system. There is no satan outside of the three monotheistic religions. Why not just go and worship Odin and completely discard Christianity?

Actually, I might be off by calling Zen 'atheist'. I mean 'atheist' in that there is a god in the monotheistic sense. All Zen is still Buddhist. maybe I should just call it "agnostic". the heart of Zen is waking up to every moment through our own efforts of meditation. we don't rely on the help of a deity. if one exists, great; if not, no big deal. it doesn't affect our task of being fully engaged in the present.

sailor

12-06-2009, 05:23 AM

Because you can't have a religion without faith in a higher power. Without that you don't have a religion.

absolute belief that there is no god isn't conceptually the same as absolute belief that there is one? they do have a god, which is that there is no god.

Ritalin

12-06-2009, 06:55 AM

maybe I should just call it "agnostic". the heart of Zen is waking up to every moment through our own efforts of meditation. we don't rely on the help of a deity. if one exists, great; if not, no big deal. it doesn't affect our task of being fully engaged in the present.

Hello.

You've just described how I feel vis a vis God. I feel that there are compelling reasons to believe that there is some kind of "God" - and you can make that anything from a white guy with a beard and a robe to a mysterious disembodied life force. It's an interesting conversation with no end.

But it doesn't affect my life, because I can't make the leap that this "God" - and I don't put it in quotes to be disrespectful, merely to point out that there are many different versions of the same thing - is at all concerned with how human beings behave. And I'm certainly not going to follow the dicates of anyone who claims to speak for "God". To me that's a 3 card monte.

I try to live a good life and if my idea of what that is overlaps with what any particular religion things is a good life then I'm comfortable with that. But I definitely don't feel that you have to be religious to be good.

GregoryJoseph

12-06-2009, 06:57 AM

I try to live a good life.

And just how do you know what is "good" in this life?

spankyfrank

12-06-2009, 07:00 AM

And just how do you know what is "good" in this life?

His moral compass was set by a guardian type figure when he was younger.

Or......

He was once part of a religion.

GregoryJoseph

12-06-2009, 07:01 AM

His moral compass was set by a guardian type figure when he was younger.

Or......

He was once part of a religion.

Or perhaps deep down we all just KNOW.

It's your choice whether you choose to ignore it or not.

spankyfrank

12-06-2009, 07:05 AM

Or perhaps deep down we all just KNOW.

It's your choice whether you choose to ignore it or not.

I dunno about that. I think if no one told you as a younger person the difference you would do as you please. I made this example at the beginning of this thread but look at Caligula. He was a person who was told he could do no wrong and then he turned out to be one of the craziest psychpaths to ever rule Rome.

GregoryJoseph

12-06-2009, 07:17 AM

I dunno about that. I think if no one told you as a younger person the difference you would do as you please. I made this example at the beginning of this thread but look at Caligula. He was a person who was told he could do no wrong and then he turned out to be one of the craziest psychpaths to ever rule Rome.

The mind can easily overcome the spirit because of how we have been trained and how we've "evolved" as human beings.

If you learn to shut off your mind and listen to your spiritual side, however, it's all still in there.

Almost every major philosophy and religion on the planet teaches that all the answers are within ourselves. It's not a coincidence.

Those who fancy themselves to be so super brilliant and prize their ability to study facts and acquire knowledge usually never find the answers they're looking for because they search everywhere else but within themselves.

GregoryJoseph

12-06-2009, 07:21 AM

P.S. - These people like to think they're incredibly logical and scientific, but really they're just egomaniacs.

spankyfrank

12-06-2009, 07:23 AM

The mind can easily overcome the spirit because of how we have been trained and how we've "evolved" as human beings.

If you learn to shut off your mind and listen to your spiritual side, however, it's all still in there.

Almost every major philosophy and religion on the planet teaches that all the answers are within ourselves. It's not a coincidence.

Those who fancy themselves to be so super brilliant and prize their ability to study facts and acquire knowledge usually never find the answers they're looking for because they search everywhere else but within themselves.

Well I think you are talking about the big answers to life questions. I was just talking about morals. If you take a child and don't teach it anything about right and wrong, I highly doubt that it would be able to figure it out on it's own.