Bud Selig to retire in 2012 (now with bonus Pete Rose and steroids!)

[jauble]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4695595

[GregoryJoseph]

I thought epo died...

[jauble]

I thought epo died...

I imagine part of him did.

[Snoogans]

i hope selig goes back to owning the Brewers so they completely suck balls again

[GregoryJoseph]

I hope the next commissioner is a baseball man and not a business man.

[A.J.]

According to sources, Selig, who is 75, told the group of owners he will step aside in 2012 in order to pursue other interests while he's still able, the newspaper reported.

I wonder what he'll ruin next.

[GregoryJoseph]

First order of business for the new commish ought to be abolishing the DH.

[Snoogans]

First order of business for the new commish ought to be universal DH.


I agree

[Marc with a c]

I wonder what he'll ruin next.

i hear just jon is thinkin about selling.

[TheMojoPin]

Oh God, don't let him be replaced by Andy McPhail, PLEASE, NO.

[razorboy]

Oh God, don't let him be replaced by Andy McPhail, PLEASE, NO.

Or DuPuy

Or Manfred.

[IamFogHat]

Thank Christ.

[KnoxHarrington]

I would hope that the commissioner's job would go back to someone outside the ownership structure, so that it becomes a fairly independent job again, but I kind of doubt that will happen.

[A.J.]

Oh God, don't let him be replaced by Andy McPhail, PLEASE, NO.

Pray nobody asks Joe Morgan.

[TheMojoPin]

I would hope that the commissioner's job would go back to someone outside the ownership structure, so that it becomes a fairly independent job again, but I kind of doubt that will happen.

Yeah, we'd all love to see a "baseball guy" over a "business guy," but it's simply too big a business for that to happen. This job is almost all about the business and the PR now.

[KnoxHarrington]

Yeah, we'd all love to see a "baseball guy" over a "business guy," but it's simply too big a business for that to happen. This job is almost all about the business and the PR now.

Well, it doesn't even have to be a "baseball guy" -- just a "business guy" who isn't directly involved in the ownership of a team. A Peter Ueberroth type, perhaps.

We'll never get another Bart Giamatti.

[TheMojoPin]

Well, it doesn't even have to be a "baseball guy" -- just a "business guy" who isn't directly involved in the ownership of a team. A Peter Ueberroth type, perhaps.

Oh, yeah, I definitely agree on that. It should be someone without previous employment by an MLB team.

[razorboy]

Well, it doesn't even have to be a "baseball guy" -- just a "business guy" who isn't directly involved in the ownership of a team. A Peter Ueberroth type, perhaps.

Steve Greenberg maybe?

[disneyspy]

hey,you geeks dont think you're the ones choosing this guy do you?

cuz you're not

[TheMojoPin]

Shut up, you Ohio-loving freak.

[RhinoinMN]

Steve Greenberg maybe?

How about Steve Guttenberg? He was great in Short Circuit.

[razorboy]

How about Steve Guttenberg? He was great in Short Circuit.

Who needs steroids and HGH when you have cocoons?

[brettmojo]

I agree
x2.

[Kevin]

Maybe he thinks the world will end.

[hanso]

http://i.fhqhosting.com/Condi_rice.jpg
Folks all have the wrong gender.
Get a load of them gams huh
And you know what they say about buck teeth

[epo]

First order of business for the new commish ought to be abolishing the DH.

I think it should be Bud's final act of mercy for real baseball fans.

[brettmojo]

I think it should be Bud's final act of mercy for dull baseball fans.
Different strokes for different folks I guess.

[TheMojoPin]

Where the hell is epo Manning?!?!??

This is unacceptable.

[Kevin]

I think it should be Bud's final act of mercy for real baseball fans.



By making the game even duller?

Nothing more dull than non DH baseball.

[disneyspy]

By making the game even duller?

Nothing more dull than non DH baseball.

yes because watching pitchers take 3 called strikes is so exciting

[TheMojoPin]

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Which is fitting, since the DH seems like the kind of decision someone comes up with after having a stroke.

[spoon]

Yah, why not just hire someone directly from the yankee front office this time. They have been unfairly treated during this Selig stint. Perhaps Joba's mother could take the job.

[TheMojoPin]

Let's hope the new guy realizes that baseball in Canada is for Nazis and jerkoffs.

[Kevin]

Which is fitting, since the DH seems like the kind of decision someone comes up with after having a stroke.



Yea, you are sound of mind if you want to see a pitcher be an auto out and ruin many rallies.

[spoon]

yes, bc pitchers batting is so amazing to watch...not to mention awful managers making stupid moves throughout the game bc they feel the need to pseudo-manage.

[spoon]

Let's hope the new guy realizes that baseball in Canada is for Nazis and jerkoffs.

92/93

Seems to work better there than Chicago upon further investigation.

[Kevin]

Lets take out an effective pitcher because he has to do something thats not his job and hit in a big spot.

Thats a great way to play the game.

[TheMojoPin]

You AL mutts are too hung up on the pitcher batting. The strategy comes from how the lineup is constructed around the pitcher's spot as opposed to just being able to stack the lineup with a bunch of apes from top to bottom. DH baseball is basically bumper bowling. It also allows AL pitchers to be the biggest cowards out there when it comes to hitting someone or pitching in tight since they're never going to come up to bat and potentially have to face the same thing.

[TheMojoPin]

92/93

Seems to work better there than Chicago upon further investigation.

Again, nobody noticed except for Nazis and jerkoffs.

Which one are you?

[disneyspy]

You AL mutts are too hung up on the pitcher batting. The strategy comes from how the lineup is constructed around the pitcher's spot as opposed to just being able to stack the lineup with a bunch of apes from top to bottom. DH baseball is basically bumper bowling. It also allows AL pitchers to be the biggest cowards out there when it comes to hitting someone or pitching in tight since they're never going to come up to bat and potentially have to face the same thing.

whatever,great strategy,always put the pitcher 9th,thats just great

[TheMojoPin]

Lets take out an effective pitcher because he has to do something thats not his job and hit in a big spot.

Thats a great way to play the game.

It's a fucking gamble that adds another level of tension and emotion to the game. It means you have to look much more closely at how you construct and manage your bullpen and your bench. The DH oversimplifies everything.

[TheMojoPin]

whatever,great strategy,always put the pitcher 9th,thats just great

That's not the point, spaz. Again, you're focusing only on the pitcher batting when the big picture is that it changes how the entire lineup is constructed. Who gives a fuck how an AL lineup is put together? Outside of the 1st inning it doesn't matter since it never has to "turn over." The only thing to consider with an AL lineup is which guys to have up top to get them more AB's and nothing else.

[spoon]

You AL mutts are too hung up on the pitcher batting. The strategy comes from how the lineup is constructed around the pitcher's spot as opposed to just being able to stack the lineup with a bunch of apes from top to bottom. DH baseball is basically bumper bowling. It also allows AL pitchers to be the biggest cowards out there when it comes to hitting someone or pitching in tight since they're never going to come up to bat and potentially have to face the same thing.

blah blah blah blah blah

[TheMojoPin]

Words always hurt a DH fan.

[disneyspy]

That's not the point, spaz. Again, you're focusing only on the pitcher batting when the big picture is that it changes how the entire lineup is constructed. Who gives a fuck how an AL lineup is put together? Outside of the 1st inning it doesn't matter since it never has to "turn over." The only thing to consider with an AL lineup is which guys to have up top to get them more AB's and nothing else.

bla bla bla bla

yes its so great waiting when the manager keeps pulling the pitcher when its his time to bat and then you get to watch another pitcher take warm up,its so exciting watching them play catch

[GregoryJoseph]

It's a fucking gamble that adds another level of tension and emotion to the game. It means you have to look much more closely at how you construct and manage your bullpen and your bench. The DH oversimplifies everything.

Bingo.

And I've long argued that a National League team is at a bigger disadvantage playing a game in an AL park than vice versa.

They don't have a guy sitting on the bench who bats .320 with 48 HRs and 140 RBI.

In the World Series the DH spot on an NL club goes to a 4th outfielder.

It's a joke.

[TheMojoPin]

It's hilarious how much spoon hates the Yankees yet having the DH is one of the things that's probably helped them the most with the money they have to spend.

[Kevin]

It's a fucking gamble that adds another level of tension and emotion to the game. It means you have to look much more closely at how you construct and manage your bullpen and your bench. The DH oversimplifies everything.



It takes much more managerial skill to navigate your pen through the mind fields of a stacked AL lineup than it does having to do a fucking nonsene move of taking out a pitcher thats pitching well just because he comes up in a big spot. He is a fucking pitcher, his job is to pitch.

Why not put your goalie on the powerplay and let him handle the puck.

NONSENSE!

[TheMojoPin]

bla bla bla bla

yes its so great waiting when the manager keeps pulling the pitcher when its his time to bat and then you get to watch another pitcher take warm up,its so exciting watching them play catch

I'd say you were oversimplifying it way too much, but as a DH fan that's all you know.

[disneyspy]

I'd say you were oversimplifying it way too much, but as a DH fan that's all you know.

oh why dont you go pretend like you're pickin the next commish you geek

[GregoryJoseph]

I will also say that few things are as dramatic as when a pitcher comes up to bat and delivers in a clutch situation.

Granted it's rare, but that's just another thing that makes it so special.

[spoon]

It's hilarious how much spoon hates the Yankees yet having the DH is one of the things that's probably helped them the most with the money they have to spend.

Yes it's hilarious how the DH is the tipping point in your mind. It has NOTHING to do with the top of the rotation pitchers, international free agents and pillaging of competitor lineups that come into play...among so much more. As if the DH was gone they wouldn't simply buy a 4th outfielder or some other combo to spend the money. Words hurt...your shitty claims.

[TheMojoPin]

It takes much more managerial skill to navigate your pen through the mind fields of a stacked AL lineup than it does having to do a fucking nonsene move of taking out a pitcher thats pitching well just because he comes up in a big spot. He is a fucking pitcher, his job is to pitch.

Why not put your goalie on the powerplay and let him handle the puck.

NONSENSE!

It's ridiculous how many layers of bullshit you have to plow through on this one. Yeah, the lineups are stacked...BECAUSE OF THE DH, GENIUS. They're retard-strength lineups. I also love how you think having to make a huge decision that could either pay off huge or blow up in your face is a BAD thing. Yeah, God forbid something occurs that fills the game with even more tension and emotion.

[GregoryJoseph]

Who was the MVP of this most recent World Series?

Oh, that's right.

A guy who didn't even start 3 of the games in a 6 game series.

He never played in the field, either.

What a joke.

[TheMojoPin]

Yes it's hilarious how the DH is the tipping point in your mind. It has NOTHING to do with the top of the rotation pitchers, international free agents and pillaging of competitor lineups that come into play...among so much more. As if the DH was gone they wouldn't simply buy a 4th outfielder or some other combo to spend the money. Words hurt...your shitty claims.

Where did I say it was the tipping point? Figures that a DH-loving, Canadian baseball fan would be delusional enough to take "one of the things that's probably helped them the most" as "tipping point."

[TheMojoPin]

oh why dont you go pretend like you're pickin the next commish you geek

I'm sorry that our discussions aren't as thrilling as your insider's take of DisneywZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.

[spoon]

It takes much more managerial skill to navigate your pen through the mind fields of a stacked AL lineup than it does having to do a fucking nonsene move of taking out a pitcher thats pitching well just because he comes up in a big spot. He is a fucking pitcher, his job is to pitch.

Why not put your goalie on the powerplay and let him handle the puck.

NONSENSE!

For anyone to say it's tough to manage in EITHER league it's hilarious. Hands down the easiest job in all of sports. Especially in Chicago where winning is simply a luxury, not a prerequisite.

[TheMojoPin]

The decision to have the DH is the JustJon moment of MLB.

AND SPOON LOVES IT.

[spoon]

Where did I say it was the tipping point? Figures that a DH-loving, Canadian baseball fan would be delusional enough to take "one of the things that's probably helped them the most" as "tipping point."

Yah, that's WAY off the subject and clearly have no relationship to each other.

[TheMojoPin]

For anyone to say it's tough to manage in EITHER league it's hilarious. Hands down the easiest job in all of sports. Especially in Chicago where winning is simply a luxury, not a prerequisite.

I didn't say managing in general was tough: I said that one decision can be a tough one.

[TheMojoPin]

Yah, that's WAY off the subject and clearly have no relationship to each other.

Well, they're obviously not the same thing to anyone who knows how to read. How can one of other similarly or equally critical factors be the singular tipping point?

[Marc with a c]

It takes much more managerial skill to navigate your pen through the mind fields of a stacked AL lineup than it does having to do a fucking nonsene move of taking out a pitcher thats pitching well just because he comes up in a big spot. He is a fucking pitcher, his job is to pitch.

Why not put your goalie on the powerplay and let him handle the puck.

NONSENSE!

just ban him for this mojo. please.

[disneyspy]

I'm sorry that our discussions aren't as thrilling as your insider's take of DisneywZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.

hey the spy made the florida papres all the time in the mid 90s

and i broke some really small stories

[Kevin]

Who was the MVP of this most recent World Series?

Oh, that's right.

A guy who didn't even start 3 of the games in a 6 game series.

He never played in the field, either.

What a joke.



So....

You would rather take a guy out of the lineup who can still rake to have a pitcher do something thats not his job??

GREAT WAY TO RUN A GAME.

[TheMojoPin]

So....

You would rather take a guy out of the lineup who can still rake to have a pitcher do something thats not his job??

GREAT WAY TO RUN A GAME.

The guy who can rake CAN'T DO HIS JOB. HIS JOB IS TO HIT AND THEN TAKE THE FIELD. HE CAN'T DO 50% OF HIS FUCKING JOB.

[spoon]

The decision to have the DH is the JustJon moment of MLB.

AND SPOON LOVES IT.

Just bc you post it amongst your 47,000 posts doesn't make it so. Keep trying.

[razorboy]

I say the AL keeps the DH and the NL replaces all of their pitchers with Jugs Machines.

[TheMojoPin]

Just bc you post it amongst your 47,000 posts doesn't make it so. Keep trying.

Awwww, you're on empty.

[Kevin]

I say the AL keeps the DH and the NL replaces all of their pitchers with Jugs Machines.



Just put a fucking fat head of the pitcher when he is up to bat.

He will just take three strikes anyway.

Or Krod would just walk it with the basesloaded.

[Marc with a c]

I say the AL keeps the DH and the NL replaces all of their pitchers with Jugs Machines.

i think the mets did that last year.

[hanso]

By making the game even duller?

Nothing more dull than non DH baseball.

Something should be done about the intentional walk. (throw 4 balzzz)
To speed the game along. Just have the picher point to first or something.

[TheMojoPin]

It's ridiculous how the DH fans here keep making fun of how most pitchers aren't good hitters when the reason for that is the fucking DH itself. Like a virus, the DH has infected so many levels of college and amateur baseball that these guys, most of whom were actually good or even the best hitters on their team through high school, have the offensive aspect of their game totally fall by the wayside so that by the time they do reach the MLB systems (and even then the pitcher doesn't hit until AA) they have almost no chance to catch up to the talent level needed to hit MLB-quality pitching. IT'S THE DH'S OWN FUCKING FAULT THAT MOST PITCHERS CAN'T HIT. Get rid of the fucking DH and you'll have pitchers who can hit again.

[spoon]

Awwww, you're on empty.

No, not even close but it's useless to argue with you on any topic. First off, you're the first to play with statements and facts, and then try to act as though a main factor in one team's dominance has no tie to a tipping point, or that there are MANY more important factors which is obvious. So you twist the convo, just as you have by acting like I LOVE the DH (not true, but it's better) and I root for Canadian baseball when I root for a Canadian team with players from all over the globe. Bottom line, anyone can get douchey with definitions and grammar to be a dick, but only you can validate yourself using it, and then call someone else out for the same thing.

So why bother, your a biased fan with thoughts just drilled into your head versus someone ready to discuss it as others were.

[cougarjake13]

my vote goes to this guy




http://assets.hulu.com/shows/key_art_the_commish.jpg

[spoon]

Not to mention I hate the yankees, as mojo claims, bc of unfair advantages and the league's lack of an effort to close them. Every AL team can employ a DH, so it's on an equal playing filed. If they can spend more there it's bc of the overall setup and a result of those factors which allow it, not the DH itself.

[Kevin]

my vote goes to this guy




http://assets.hulu.com/shows/key_art_the_commish.jpg



Stop it, grown folks are talking

[A.J.]

Bud Selig Is Tearing This Board Apart!!!!

[TheMojoPin]

Not to mention I hate the yankees, as mojo claims, bc of unfair advantages and the league's lack of an effort to close them. Every AL team can employ a DH, so it's on an equal playing filed. If they can spend more there it's bc of the overall setup and a result of those factors which allow it, not the DH itself.

Though the DH is a major factor that dictates how they can spend their money and ultimately ends up being yet another advantage for a team with more money to spend.

The Yankees' money is their tipping point, not the DH. The DH is something that is effected significantly by their tipping point.

[TheMojoPin]

No, not even close but it's useless to argue with you on any topic. First off, you're the first to play with statements and facts, and then try to act as though a main factor in one team's dominance has no tie to a tipping point, or that there are MANY more important factors which is obvious. So you twist the convo, just as you have by acting like I LOVE the DH (not true, but it's better) and I root for Canadian baseball when I root for a Canadian team with players from all over the globe. Bottom line, anyone can get douchey with definitions and grammar to be a dick, but only you can validate yourself using it, and then call someone else out for the same thing.

So why bother, your a biased fan with thoughts just drilled into your head versus someone ready to discuss it as others were.

Quitter.

[Suspect Chin]

It's a fucking gamble that adds another level of tension and emotion to the game. It means you have to look much more closely at how you construct and manage your bullpen and your bench. The DH oversimplifies everything.

Don't forget the defensive implications of the double switch commonly employed late in the game when the pitcher's spot is due up.

[TheMojoPin]

Don't forget the defensive implications of the double switch commonly employed late in the game when the pitcher's spot is due up.

I couldn't possibly forget, mainly because Lou and Dusty can't handle a double switch to save their fucking lives.

[brettmojo]

I will also say that few things are as dramatic as when a pitcher comes up to bat and delivers in a clutch situation.

Granted it's rare, but that's just another thing that makes it so special.

Yeah it's fantastic. It's like when a retard finds a M&M in the couch cushions.

[spoon]

Don't forget the defensive implications of the double switch commonly employed late in the game when the pitcher's spot is due up.

So an AL manager makes this call when needed based on defense and what the game/score dictates versus an NL manager getting his hand forced by the timing of his pitching change and when/where in the lineup people are scheduled to bat. Exciting and pure strategy indeed. Sorry, I'll pass.

[Suspect Chin]

So an AL manager makes this call when needed based on defense and what the game/score dictates versus an NL manager getting his hand forced by the timing of his pitching change and when/where in the lineup people are scheduled to bat. Exciting and pure strategy indeed. Sorry, I'll pass.

Yeah exactly that is what makes it exciting. The managers can actually 'force each others' hand' vs. jotting down a line up before the game and saying 'go'.

[spoon]

Yeah exactly that is what makes it exciting. The managers can actually 'force each others' hand' vs. jotting down a line up before the game and saying 'go'.

What are u saying here? Seriously, you lost me.

[TheMojoPin]

Yeah it's fantastic. It's like when a retard finds a M&M in the couch cushions.

I can only assume you're against it to spare yourself the embarassment of another pitcher named after a dick who can't even run the bases without nearly crippling himself.

[brettmojo]

Yeah exactly that is what makes it exciting. The managers can actually 'force each others' hand' vs. jotting down a line up before the game and saying 'go'.
"Force each others hand" on FOX means "QUICK, CUT TO COMMERCIAL!!!"

[spoon]

I can only assume you're against it to spare yourself the embarassment of another pitcher named after a dick who can't even run the bases without nearly crippling himself.

Nearly?

[TheMojoPin]

What are u saying here? Seriously, you lost me.

He's saying that without the DH you have NL managers actually having to play off of or respond or anticipate their counterpart's moves due to the way they have to manage the lineup and the bench and the bullpen far more often than an AL manager.

[Suspect Chin]

What are u saying here? Seriously, you lost me.

I'm saying that AL managers have far less 'managing' to do because they can make a lineup before the game and run with it for 9 innings. NL managers must change the lineup, and therefore the defense, in response to the game's circumstances and other manager's moves.

[TheMojoPin]

Nearly?

I was trying to be diplomatic.

[sailor]

You AL mutts are too hung up on the pitcher batting. The strategy comes from how the lineup is constructed around the pitcher's spot as opposed to just being able to stack the lineup with a bunch of apes from top to bottom. DH baseball is basically bumper bowling. It also allows AL pitchers to be the biggest cowards out there when it comes to hitting someone or pitching in tight since they're never going to come up to bat and potentially have to face the same thing.

i think the coward line is hackneyed bullshit. yes, they don't hit, but retaliation will still take place. if they're hitting people for their own agenda where it doesn't fit the game situation the players would take care of it on their own. not saying they'd call for a code red, but i don't think they'd allow some loose cannon to endanger the rest of them.

[spoon]

He's saying that without the DH you have NL managers actually having to play off of or respond or anticipate their counterpart's moves due to the way they have to manage the lineup and the bench and the bullpen far more often than an AL manager.

I wanted him to explain it, bc I'm willing to bet he was going somewhere else. And this point is moot as well. It happens just as much in an AL game, only their hand isn't forced to make early choices for lesser batters (bench vs. starters) bc a pitcher is up. Instead, matchups are played later in the game based on numbers and past outcomes, not a pitcher coming close to his pitch count even if he's doing well or a man on third and 2 outs with the dead zone up next (even if he's throwing well). It's not exciting, it's a forced hand to take out good players early. The DH gives MORE options throughout the game.

[TheMojoPin]

I It's not exciting, it's a forced hand to take out good players early.

It's exciting because it means more risk and more of a gamble in terms of the becnh and the bullpen. The DH stacks the deck too much.

[brettmojo]

I can only assume you're against it to spare yourself the embarassment of another pitcher named after a dick who can't even run the bases without nearly crippling himself.

I can think of more embarrassing things...

http://rangers.lohudblogs.com/files/2008/07/stevebartman.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_fHn-jgdR1SE/SO7hIO7NqSI/AAAAAAAAAS0/URX8FpJxKkQ/s320/BillyGoatGoat.jpg

[spoon]

Thank God mojo isn't a headline writer/editor.

[spoon]

I can think of more embarrassing things...

http://rangers.lohudblogs.com/files/2008/07/stevebartman.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_fHn-jgdR1SE/SO7hIO7NqSI/AAAAAAAAAS0/URX8FpJxKkQ/s320/BillyGoatGoat.jpg

Let's just end this whole argument and realize anyone with mojo in their name is a saucy homer fag of BDC proportions.

[TheMojoPin]

i think the coward line is hackneyed bullshit. yes, they don't hit, but retaliation will still take place. if they're hitting people for their own agenda where it doesn't fit the game situation the players would take care of it on their own. not saying they'd call for a code red, but i don't think they'd allow some loose cannon to endanger the rest of them.

You're talking about an insane situation. Nobody is talking about a pitcher "going rogue:" we're talking about the typical actions where the rest of the team (manager included) either wants the guy to hit someone or brush them back or is silently condoning it. AL teams can do it without any worry that their pitcher will face the same when he comes up to bat. The pitcher should have to face the same thing if they have the power to do it to someone else.

[Suspect Chin]

I wanted him to explain it, bc I'm willing to bet he was going somewhere else. And this point is moot as well. It happens just as much in an AL game, only their hand isn't forced to make early choices for lesser batters (bench vs. starters) bc a pitcher is up. Instead, matchups are played later in the game based on numbers and past outcomes, not a pitcher coming close to his pitch count even if he's doing well or a man on third and 2 outs with the dead zone up next (even if he's throwing well). It's not exciting, it's a forced hand to take out good players early. The DH gives MORE options throughout the game.

Forcing each others' hand is what makes it exciting. If you can make casual moves at your own pace, it isn't really much a chess game. The DH forces the managers to respond to each others' moves and the coincidental location in the lineup when a crucial situation (man on 3rd, 2 outs) arises.

[TheMojoPin]

I can think of more embarrassing things...

http://rangers.lohudblogs.com/files/2008/07/stevebartman.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_fHn-jgdR1SE/SO7hIO7NqSI/AAAAAAAAAS0/URX8FpJxKkQ/s320/BillyGoatGoat.jpg

Why are those embarassing?

[brettmojo]

Why are those embarassing?
Apparently in Chicago they're not.

[Suspect Chin]

You're talking about an insane situation. Nobody is talking about a pitcher "going rogue:" we're talking about the typical actions where the rest of the team (manager included) either wants the guy to hit someone or brush them back or is silently condoning it. AL teams can do it without any worry that their pitcher will face the same when he comes up to bat. The pitcher should have to face the same thing if they have the power to do it to someone else.

I don't buy this argument because I don't think any of the big hitters are that worried about getting hit or brushed back. Also, it wouldn't make a ton of sense to hit the pitcher because he is almost always a guaranteed out or sacrifice.

[DiabloSammich]

I wonder what he'll ruin next.

i hear just jon is thinkin about selling.



A little late on that one.

[TheMojoPin]

I don't buy this argument because I don't think any of the big hitters are that worried about getting hit or brushed back. Also, it wouldn't make a ton of sense to hit the pitcher because he is almost always a guaranteed out or sacrifice.

True, but I think it gives more pitchers in the AL the balls to do it more often and more brazenly than NL pitchers because they know there's no chance of anything happening to them.

[TheMojoPin]

Apparently in Chicago they're not.

Why would they be? If there's anything to be embarassed about it would be the team actually just not being very good for most of the last 60 years. No need to look for an urban legend or a fan trying to catch a ball for that.

[Suspect Chin]

True, but I think it gives more pitchers in the AL the balls to do it more often and more brazenly than NL pitchers because they know there's no chance of anything happening to them.

As a pitcher, I would rather face the chance of getting hit than have my teammates hate me because I got them hit.

[TheMojoPin]

As a pitcher, I would rather face the chance of getting hit than have my teammates hate me because I got them hit.

Fair enough. My thinking on this is probably focused mostly on Clemens.

[brettmojo]

True, but I think it gives more pitchers in the AL the balls to do it more often and more brazenly than NL pitchers because they know there's no chance of anything happening to them.

Vicente Padilla 2009 HBP

8 in 108 innings with Texas.
0 in 39 innings with the Dodgers.

[TheMojoPin]

Vicente Padilla 2009 HBP

8 in 108 innings with Texas.
0 in 39 innings with the Dodgers.

Looking at Padilla's numbers he was hitting a ton of guys with the Phillies, so my theory doesn't hold up with him at all.

I'm not sure why you showed those stats...unless you think that those are the number of times HE got hit. They're not. As a batter Padilla has only been hit twice in his entire career.

[brettmojo]

Looking at Padilla's numbers he was hitting a ton of guys with the Phillies, so my theory doesn't hold up with him at all.

I'm not sure why you showed those stats...unless you think that those are the number of times HE got hit. They're not.
He had that game against NY last year when he was on the Rangers where the team chewed him out for endangering their hitters. Apparently he got self conscience about it once he joined the Dodgers.

How could HE get hit eight times playing for the Rangers? Remember they got the evil DH in the AL.

[TheMojoPin]

He had that game against NY last year when he was on the Rangers where the team chewed him out for endangering their hitters. Apparently he got self conscience about it once he joined the Dodgers.

How could HE get hit eight times playing for the Rangers? Remember they got the evil DH in the AL.

Then I'm even more confused about why you posted those particular stats.

[sailor]

You're talking about an insane situation. Nobody is talking about a pitcher "going rogue:" we're talking about the typical actions where the rest of the team (manager included) either wants the guy to hit someone or brush them back or is silently condoning it. AL teams can do it without any worry that their pitcher will face the same when he comes up to bat. The pitcher should have to face the same thing if they have the power to do it to someone else.

i know it was insane. my point was someone's going to be retaliated against. doesn't matter who, it's a team. heck, it's usually your star which is much bigger than your number 4 starter getting hit.

[TheMojoPin]

I wish I could bean you.

[sailor]

Fair enough. My thinking on this is probably focused mostly on Clemens.

apology accepted.

[TheMojoPin]

You're going to pay big.

[Doogie]

Lets get rid of that DH and interleague play. I want to see more old rivals play within a league and not teams that have no business playing together at all. Royals-Marlins come to mind.

[TheMojoPin]

Lets get rid of that DH and interleague play.

YES.

Hate that garbage. AL and NL teams should only meet in the WS.

[GregoryJoseph]

I also agree.

Interleague play ranks right up there with the DH as the biggest abominations of the game.

[TheMojoPin]

What about "this time it counts?"

ECH.

The ASG should count for nothing.

[GregoryJoseph]

What about "this time it counts?"

ECH.

The ASG should count for nothing.

We're agreeing far too much lately...:ohmy:

[TheMojoPin]

This is why baseball is so great.

I miss it so.

Less than three months until pitchers and catchers report!

[GregoryJoseph]

I also want opening day in AMERICA.

IN CINCINNATI.

No questions asked.

[TheMojoPin]

I also want opening day in AMERICA.

IN CINCINNATI.

No questions asked.

True. And Detroit opens it for the AL. That's how it should be.

Please be a Reds fan again this year. Don't let Dusty win. You guys have Jocketty in the front office, so there is hope.

[GregoryJoseph]

True. And Detroit opens it for the AL. That's how it should be.

Amen.

[CYYYFYYY]

I think Selig did a good job as commish. He added the Wild card and said all playoff games should go 9 innings.

[Fallon]

I also agree.

Interleague play ranks right up there with the DH as the biggest abominations of the game.

Unbalanced schedules blow too.

[TheMojoPin]

Baseball going into November is unacceptable as well.

[razorboy]

You know what I hate? Stadium lights. Baseball is a daytime game, dagnabbit.

[GregoryJoseph]

Baseball going into November is unacceptable as well.

Mojo and I should be the new co-commissioners of baseball.

[Doogie]

What about "this time it counts?"

ECH.

The ASG should count for nothing.

Ugggghhhh...couldnt agree any further. I HATE that that asshole has tried to make the ASG bigger than it needs to be. Isnt it enough you are getting the best players on the field at that moment? Fucking Selig and his gimmicks. I dont know who is more of a cornball to try and garner rating, him or Bill Veeck. At least Veeck was trying to breathe life into one team, not make it cornball for the rest of the league. And two words why Veeck ruled with his gimmicks: midget hitter.

[sailor]

I also want opening day in AMERICA.

IN CINCINNATI.

No questions asked.

thief!

[joeyballsack]

I nominate this guy as the new Commissioner:

http://static.thehollywoodgossip.com/images/gallery/steve-phillips-pic.jpg

With his choice of women, no one can possibly question his judgement.

[Snoogans]

im sad i was at work for this argument.


Ill just add one thing, my quick opinion.

intentionally walkin the #8 hitter....boring. Pitchers hitting, boring. Sac bunts, boring.



thats it

[Snoogans]

and on an aside, Why exactly do we not teach guys to pitch longer now a days?

it seems just as many guys get hurt now, if not more. Why cant a guy throw 140 pitches? They used to do that shit every 2-3 days no problem.

[Snoogans]

also, the giants should put lawrence tynes in at HB. EARN YOUR MONEY. We cant have people just do their jobs like pitchers or kickers, they have to do shitty jobs at something else that others are better at

[Kevin]

also, the giants should put lawrence tynes in at HB. EARN YOUR MONEY. We cant have people just do their jobs like pitchers or kickers, they have to do shitty jobs at something else that others are better at

Tynes would prob be a better HB than he is a kicker and Jacobs is a HB.

[Snoogans]

Tynes would prob be a better HB than he is a kicker and Jacobs is a HB.

i wonder what kinda leg jacobs has

[TheMojoPin]

and on an aside, Why exactly do we not teach guys to pitch longer now a days?

it seems just as many guys get hurt now, if not more. Why cant a guy throw 140 pitches? They used to do that shit every 2-3 days no problem.

Because now they have to throw a lot more types of pitches that place more stress on their mechanics if they want to be truly and consistently successful given the nature of hitters now and the mound is shorter than the eras when guys pitched more often.

[sailor]

Because now they have to throw a lot more types of pitches that place more stress on their mechanics if they want to be truly and consistently successful given the nature of hitters now and the mound is shorter than the eras when guys pitched more often.

i was waiting for dusty's explanation.

[hanso]

If there was no interleague play.
Then the other halve of the league wouldn't get to employ the DH.
That hardly seems fair.

[Snoogans]

Because now they have to throw a lot more types of pitches that place more stress on their mechanics if they want to be truly and consistently successful given the nature of hitters now and the mound is shorter than the eras when guys pitched more often.

bullshit. They threw all the same pitches in teh fuckin 80's and guys still went longer then. up until like 90 guys would go 275 innings a year NP. this is pretty much a brand new thing, like last 15 years

[Kevin]

i wonder what kinda leg jacobs has

He would tip toe getting to the ball and get tackled before kicking it.

[TheMojoPin]

i was waiting for dusty's explanation.

I will end you.

[TheMojoPin]

bullshit. They threw all the same pitches in teh fuckin 80's and guys still went longer then. up until like 90 guys would go 275 innings a year NP. this is pretty much a brand new thing, like last 15 years

Yes, as I said, due to the nature of hitters today. It's the lowering of the mound coupled with having to deal with the modern power era starting in the early 90's. The array of pitches that guys have to have at their disposal to survive in the modern power era places much more strain on their arms than what was faced for most of the 80's.

[Snoogans]

Yes, as I said, due to the nature of hitters today. It's the lowering of the mound coupled with having to deal with the modern power era starting in the early 90's. The array of pitches that guys have to have at their disposal to survive in the modern power era places much more strain on their arms than what was faced for most of the 80's.

no its that we dont have them throw as much as we did, so they arent used to it now

[TheMojoPin]

no its that we dont have them throw as much as we did, so they arent used to it now

Because all you're doing are looking at the workhorses who were able to handle that and ignoring all the shortened careers from the guys who couldn't. Making them throw more isn't going to toughen most of the pitchers up: it's just going to flush more them out of the game quicker or limiting how effective they'll be over their career.

[Snoogans]

Because all you're doing are looking at the workhorses who were able to handle that and ignoring all the shortened careers from the guys who couldn't. Making them throw more isn't going to toughen most of the pitchers up: it's just going to flush more them out of the game quicker or limiting how effective they'll be over their career.

unguarantee contracts, problem solved

[TheMojoPin]

No.

[cougarjake13]

cant he just leave now and get a jumpstart ??

[Section 8]

What needs to be done with baseball:


Get rid of interleague play.

Make the All Star Game an exhibition, worth NOTHING to the winner, the way it was intended. Home field advantage should be won thru record.

Either cut the amount of games down to 154 from 162 OR have a Day/Night Doubleheader every month, preferably on Sunday. This way, the postseason starts Oct 1.

Get rid of the extended wait between the Division Series, Championship Series and the World Series. As soon as teams are confirmed, take 1 day off and then start the next round. There should not be a 5-6 days waiting period between games when we know what teams are playing. That's just really stupid.

Force teams to spend money received from the Luxury Tax to be spent on acquiring players to build up the teams. Better yet, set a salary minimum for teams. There is no reason why teams cannot have a payroll of $80-90 million. If owners spend more to bring in good players, more fans will show up to the stadium.

Instant replay on foul line calls.

If there is a glaring problematic call (ie the double play that never happened with the Yankees getting tagged at third) the other umps should be able to step in and say "Dude, you fucked up." and overturn the call.

Reinstate Pete Rose and immediately induct him into the Hall of Fame.



That's all I can think of right now.

[TheMojoPin]

Get rid of the extended wait between the Division Series, Championship Series and the World Series. As soon as teams are confirmed, take 1 day off and then start the next round. There should not be a 5-6 days waiting period between games when we know what teams are playing. That's just really stupid.

I agree that the wait is too long, but it can't only be 1 day. With everything and everyone that needs to be put up and set up due to the media broadcasts and such probably 3 days would be needed. It can definitely be shortened, but not that short. Couple that with some double headers and there's no reason the playoffs can't start and end earlier.

Fuck Pete Rose.

Other than that I totally agree with everything you said.

[Doogie]

I concur about Pete Rose. Fuck him. And I agree with bumping up that start time for LCS Series and World Series if you can...one day is too short, but waiting a week is ridiculous too. Baseball should end in October, not November...

[underdog]

This is a pretty spectacular list from deadspin :

•Led a secretive group of owners ("The Great Lakes Gang") in pushing for commissioner Fay Vincent's ouster. As the most vocal, he became de facto acting commissioner.

•After one year in office, rescinded George Steinbrenner's lifelong suspension. Denied that the fact that the suspension was handed down by Fay Vincent had anything to do with it.

•Upheld, to this day, Pete Rose's lifelong suspension, despite overwhelming public opinion. Denied that the fact that the suspension was handed down by close friend Bart Giamatti had anything to do with it.

•Oversaw the 1994 strike.

•Opened the door for replacement players.

•Gave us interleague play, which, for every White Sox/Cubs game gives us Pirates/Rays and Padres/Athletics games.

•To compensate for 1998's expansion, one AL team had to move to the NL, with a considerable financial advantage. Selig's Brewers were selected.

•Though acting commissioner for the past six years, Selig continued to operate the Brewers. Upon officially being named commissioner, Selig transferred his ownership interest to his daughter. Many suspected he continued to make decisions for the team up until their sale in 2004.

•Threw daughter under the bus, claiming the Brewers' disastrous performance under Wendy Selig-Prieb is proof that he was no longer running the team after 1992.

•Helped to write the hagiographies of Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa and Barry Bonds. Perhaps they should have been fact checked first.

•Saw the NFL institute an almost-total instant replay policy in 1999. Nine years later, introduced instant replay only for home run calls.

•Two days after the thrilling and inspiring 2001 World Series, held a vote on contracting the Twins and Expos. Was charged with racketeering and settled the case outside of court. Got the Expos moved anyway.

•Oversaw the 2002 All-Star Game in which both sides ran out of players. From then on, the ASG determined home field advantage in the World Series. The National League has yet to win home field advantage.

•Commissioned the Mitchell Report, led by Director of the Red Sox, and which seemed to rely on two sources and revealed nothing new.

•Failed miserably at keeping a secret list of steroid users secret. Fans now look forward to the annual reveal of superstar names.

•Saw other sports praised for their parity; oversaw an uncapped league where one team regularly spends six times as much as others.

•Made sure October baseball regularly ends after midnight.

•Made sure October baseball regularly ends in November.

[TheMojoPin]

A salary cap would suck.

Pete Rose is an overrated scumbag and should stay banned.

Everything else is evil, especially all the Brewers stuff.

[Snoogans]

A salary cap would suck.

Pete Rose is an overrated scumbag and should stay banned.

Everything else is evil, especially all the Brewers stuff.

I think Pete Rose shoulda manage the Cubs. Imagine how much he would make bettin against those bums

[TheMojoPin]

I'd assassinate him if he did.

[Snoogans]

I'd assassinate him if he did.

you cant even get an owner and you are gonna assassinate someone?

[Kevin]

I'd assassinate him if he did.

If people ruining your sports teams causes you to assassinate, then you have alot of work to do.

Lovie Smith

Jay Cutler

Lou Pinella

Infinity.

[TheMojoPin]

you cant even get an owner

We've got Ricketts.

[TheMojoPin]

If people ruining your sports teams causes you to assassinate, then you have alot of work to do.

Lovie Smith

Jay Cutler

Lou Pinella

Infinity.

I'd never hurt my darling Jay.

The other two are on notice.

[sailor]

If there is a glaring problematic call (ie the double play that never happened with the Yankees getting tagged at third) the other umps should be able to step in and say "Dude, you fucked up." and overturn the call.

isn't that already the case?

and pete should be re-instated the moment he stops acting like a dick. might be never.

[TheMojoPin]

and pete should be re-instated the moment he stops acting like a dick. might be never.

NO, GODDAMMIT.

If guys get away with shit before a rule is enforced, hey, they got away with it. That's why I don't give a shit who used steroids before they actually started enforcing and creating specific rules against it...but guys who get caught now juicing? Sorry, they knew the rules. If they get kicked out, them's the breaks. Anything they lose as a result of breaking them, they made that choice. At the time, Pete willfully broke the one set in stone sin that baseball had and had been in place for decades. It's posted clear as day in all the clubhouses: players and coaches cannot bet on the games. It's not like he's being punished retroactively for something: he knew what the risk was going in. Fuck him.

[A.J.]

NO, GODDAMMIT.

If guys get away with shit before a rule is enforced, hey, they got away with it. That's why I don't give a shit who used steroids before they actually started enforcing and creating specific rules against it...but guys who get caught now juicing? Sorry, they knew the rules. If they get kicked out, them's the breaks. Anything they lose as a result of breaking them, they made that choice. At the time, Pete willfully broke the one set in stone sin that baseball had and had been in place for decades. It's posted clear as day in all the clubhouses: players and coaches cannot bet on the games. It's not like he's being punished retroactively for something: he knew what the risk was going in. Fuck him.

He did it as a manager, not as a player. He'd be going into the Hall for what he did as a player -- and so far, nobody ever accused him of betting while being a player.

Want to keep him out of the game forever? Fine. But to deny him entry into the Hall for what he achieved as a player is stupid.

[GregoryJoseph]

NO, GODDAMMIT.

If guys get away with shit before a rule is enforced, hey, they got away with it. That's why I don't give a shit who used steroids before they actually started enforcing and creating specific rules against it...but guys who get caught now juicing? Sorry, they knew the rules. If they get kicked out, them's the breaks. Anything they lose as a result of breaking them, they made that choice. At the time, Pete willfully broke the one set in stone sin that baseball had and had been in place for decades. It's posted clear as day in all the clubhouses: players and coaches cannot bet on the games. It's not like he's being punished retroactively for something: he knew what the risk was going in. Fuck him.

Ah, but they don't.

They get mild suspensions for the first two offenses.

Not lifetime bans.

Players who get caught using illegal drugs are allowed to rehab and let back into the game time and time again.

Why is a compulsive gambler treated differently?

[GregoryJoseph]

He did it as a manager, not as a player. He'd be going into the Hall for what he did as a player -- and so far, nobody ever accused him of betting while being a player.

Want to keep him out of the game forever? Fine. But to deny him entry into the Hall for what he achieved as a player is stupid.

Exactly.

Thank you, A.J.

[TheMojoPin]

Ah, but they don't.

They get mild suspensions for the first two offenses.

Not lifetime bans.

Players who get caught using illegal drugs are allowed to rehab and let back into the game time and time again.

Why is a compulsive gambler treated differently?

Because that's been the rule for almost a century. It was in place for decades before Rose even entered the game. I'm not arguing the fairness of which rules result in what: the point is that there was absolutely no confusion as to what the rules were regarding players and coaches gambling on games and Rose did it anyway.

[TheMojoPin]

He did it as a manager, not as a player. He'd be going into the Hall for what he did as a player -- and so far, nobody ever accused him of betting while being a player.

Want to keep him out of the game forever? Fine. But to deny him entry into the Hall for what he achieved as a player is stupid.

I'm not talking about him in the Hall; I'm talking about the stupid idea of re-instating him with MLB (which is what he wants more than anything in all of this). The Hall is a joke anyway, so why should I give a shit if he's in that or not?

And the gambling rules have always applied to everyone on a team. It's not relegated only towards players.

[Snoogans]

Mojo makes a good point, so does AJ. hmmm

At least ol Pete is in the WWE hall of fame. He got that goin for him

[A.J.]

I'm not talking about him in the Hall; I'm talking about the stupid idea of re-instating him with MLB. The Hall is a joke anyway, so why should I give a shit if he's in that or not?

And the gambling rules have always applied to everyone on a team. It's not relegated only towards players.

Oh hell no. I'd never let him back into baseball after that.

I know and I agree. But I'm saying that there's never been an accusation that he gambled as a player -- something that would preclude him from getting into the Hall.

[TheMojoPin]

Oh hell no. I'd never let him back into baseball after that.

I know and I agree. But I'm saying that there's never been an accusation that he gambled as a player -- something that would preclude him from getting into the Hall.

Agreed, the Hall should let him in at least some capacity. The Hall should have every important player in the game, warts and all, represented.

[spoon]

What needs to be done with baseball:


Force teams to spend money received from the Luxury Tax to be spent on acquiring players to build up the teams. Better yet, set a salary minimum for teams. There is no reason why teams cannot have a payroll of $80-90 million. If owners spend more to bring in good players, more fans will show up to the stadium.



That's all I can think of right now.

Ok, it amazes me how many people don't understand what and how the luxury tax works in mlb. Not only does it do NOTHING for other teams to pick up players, it is pretty much a smokescreen much in the way the repubs would name a policy in politics. Eg. Clearer Skies or No Child Left Behind initiatives. Also, NYY used it's OWN LUX tax towards it's new stadium which to me is a joke.

"Instead of a salary cap, Major League Baseball implemented a luxury tax, an arrangement by which teams whose aggregate payroll exceeds a certain figure (determined annually) are taxed on the excess amount. The tax is paid to the league, which then puts the money into its industry-growth fund."

[epo]

Ah, but they don't.

They get mild suspensions for the first two offenses.

Not lifetime bans.

Players who get caught using illegal drugs are allowed to rehab and let back into the game time and time again.

Why is a compulsive gambler treated differently?

There is nothing posted on every major league locker room door about drugs, whereas there is about gambling. Gambling on your sport is the ultimate cheapening of your craft.

I never want Pete Rose to even have the ability to attend a major league game, much less participate in a game or be included on any level to its Hall of Fame.

[Snoogans]

There is nothing posted on every major league locker room door about drugs, whereas there is about gambling. Gambling on your sport is the ultimate cheapening of your craft.

I never want Pete Rose to even have the ability to attend a major league game, much less participate in a game or be included on any level to its Hall of Fame.

what if, at the game he attends, they let Jim Grey interview him. Would you allow it then?

[epo]

what if, at the game he attends, they let Jim Grey interview him. Would you allow it then?

Only if in said interview, they are both lit on fire.

[Snoogans]

Only if in said interview, they are both lit on fire.

i hope the new commish puts Rose AND Jim Grey in the HOF

[epo]

i hope the new commish puts Rose AND Jim Grey in the HOF

I surprised you are bombarding me like this!

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What a pair of douches.

[K.C.]

There is nothing posted on every major league locker room door about drugs, whereas there is about gambling. Gambling on your sport is the ultimate cheapening of your craft.

I never want Pete Rose to even have the ability to attend a major league game, much less participate in a game or be included on any level to its Hall of Fame.

There is something in every Major League, Minor League, and amateur contract signed about drug abuse, I'm sure.

Steroids has done far more to cheapen the game than gambling, and really, you have to go back to the early 20th century to find significant gambling issues in the sport.

If it was another star who wasn't Pete Rose that got this wrap, the guy would have been eventually forgiven.

Pete Rose is a victim of being Pete Rose at this point. Now, granted, he's brought a lot of that ill-will on himself with how he handled himself in the aftermath of the scandal.

But to act like this is solely about gambling and the integrity of the game at this point is ridiculous, when there are MUCH more significant problems in the game that compromise the integrity of the competition.

[midwestjeff]

there are MUCH more significant problems in the game that compromise the integrity of the competition.

You're talking about the DH aren't you?

[K.C.]

You're talking about the DH aren't you?

Fucking Hideki Matsui...I'm still pissed.

[TheMojoPin]

There is something in every Major League, Minor League, and amateur contract signed about drug abuse, I'm sure.

That specifically state you will be banned for life from MLB?

Steroids has done far more to cheapen the game than gambling, and really, you have to go back to the early 20th century to find significant gambling issues in the sport.

Gee, I wonder why that is...oh yeah, maybe it's because of the CLEARLY STATED LIFETIME BAN FOR GAMBLING SINCE THE EARLY 20TH CENTURY. Funny how that timeline works.

If it was another star who wasn't Pete Rose that got this wrap, the guy would have been eventually forgiven.

Yeah, look all the other lifteime bans for gambling that were lifted. Oh, wait.

Pete Rose is a victim of being Pete Rose at this point. Now, granted, he's brought a lot of that ill-will on himself with how he handled himself in the aftermath of the scandal.

But to act like this is solely about gambling and the integrity of the game at this point is ridiculous, when there are MUCH more significant problems in the game that compromise the integrity of the competition.

Yeah, let's toss out the clearly stated rule because nobody gets caught for gambling anymore. Hell, why not lift it altogether?

[sailor]

heck, wasn't there a deal in place to reinstate pete if he'd only stop being a dick and he proved incapable of that?

[TheMojoPin]

I surprised you are bombarding me like this!

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What a pair of douches.

Rose shouldn't have been allowed anywhere near that ceremony.

[K.C.]

That specifically state you will be banned for life from MLB?



Gee, I wonder why that is...oh yeah, maybe it's because of the CLEARLY STATED LIFETIME BAN FOR GAMBLING SINCE THE EARLY 20TH CENTURY. Funny how that timeline works.



Yeah, look all the other lifteime bans for gambling that were lifted. Oh, wait.



Yeah, let's toss out the clearly stated rule because nobody gets caught for gambling anymore. Hell, why not lift it altogether?



http://www.sonsofsamhorn.net/wiki/index.php/Lifetime_Baseball_Bans

Five players who were booted for the gambling clause were reinstated. 14 lifetime bans have been rescinded in the history of the game.

The clause was originally made so strict because of the ownership/players wage disputes of the early part of the 20th century.

The circumstances for which they were originally intended didn't apply in the Rose case.

Rose was just a degenerate.

[Kevin]

That specifically state you will be banned for life from MLB?



Gee, I wonder why that is...oh yeah, maybe it's because of the CLEARLY STATED LIFETIME BAN FOR GAMBLING SINCE THE EARLY 20TH CENTURY. Funny how that timeline works.



Yeah, look all the other lifteime bans for gambling that were lifted. Oh, wait.



Yeah, let's toss out the clearly stated rule because nobody gets caught for gambling anymore. Hell, why not lift it altogether?



Lets lift the ban on throwing the World Series.

That has not happened since 1919.

It is a useless rule since nobody does it anymore.

[Snoogans]

There is something in every Major League, Minor League, and amateur contract signed about drug abuse, I'm sure.

Steroids has done far more to cheapen the game than gambling, and really, you have to go back to the early 20th century to find significant gambling issues in the sport.

If it was another star who wasn't Pete Rose that got this wrap, the guy would have been eventually forgiven.

Pete Rose is a victim of being Pete Rose at this point. Now, granted, he's brought a lot of that ill-will on himself with how he handled himself in the aftermath of the scandal.

But to act like this is solely about gambling and the integrity of the game at this point is ridiculous, when there are MUCH more significant problems in the game that compromise the integrity of the competition.

yea because thats when they outlawed it. And no, you have to go back to pete rose in the 80's and 90's to find a gambling issue, thats WHAT THIS IS ABOUT.

And 2, steroids werent against the rules til 2003. Thats why its more an issue now. Gambling was outlawed in like 1918

[K.C.]

yea because thats when they outlawed it. And no, you have to go back to pete rose in the 80's and 90's to find a gambling issue, thats WHAT THIS IS ABOUT.

And 2, steroids werent against the rules til 2003. Thats why its more an issue now. Gambling was outlawed in like 1918

Steroids were illegal under US law. Two players (Ferguson Jenkins and Steve How) received bans (that were later rescinded) for cocaine use/possession.

The same rules that apply to illicit drug use should have applied to steroids since they're one and the same.

It was never enforced. The "it wasn't illegal" line is straight out of the Selig PR machine.

[TheMojoPin]

http://www.sonsofsamhorn.net/wiki/index.php/Lifetime_Baseball_Bans

Five players who were booted for the gambling clause were reinstated. 14 lifetime bans have been rescinded in the history of the game.

Oh, good God. 3 of those 5 bans (and the reversals) took place decades before the gambling related rules and rulings that Rose violated were put in place and enforced. The other 2 were absurd ones for jobs guys took as casino greeters AFTER they had retired from the game. So, in short, no player or coach with a lifetime ban for actually gambling on games post-Black Sox (like Rose did) has been allowed back.

[Snoogans]

Steroids were illegal under US law. Two players (Ferguson Jenkins and Steve How) received bans (that were later rescinded) for cocaine use/possession.

The same rules that apply to illicit drug use should have applied to steroids since they're one and the same.

It was never enforced. The "it wasn't illegal" line is straight out of the Selig PR machine.

no one said it wasnt illegal. I said it wasnt against the rules of baseball. Sports gambling is legal, but you cant do that. Its not about the law, its about the rules. The law is why steroids are against the rules now.

But no one got in trouble for it with the league cause it wasnt against the rules.

The 2 guys you mention got in trouble cause they were arrested for it. None of these roiders ever got in trouble with the law

[Kevin]

Oh, good God. 3 of those 5 bans (and the reversals) took place decades before the gambling related rules and rulings that Rose violated were put in place and enforced. The other 2 were absurd ones for jobs guys took as casino greeters AFTER they had retired from the game. So, in short, no player or coach with a lifetime ban for actually gambling on games post-Black Sox (like Rose did) has been allowed back.



By his stats, it was clear that Shoeless Joe was not part of that scandle. And yet he is still banned forever.

If Jackson can't get in, niether should Rose.

Im sorry, for a guy to sign a lifetime ban agreement, they must have had some damning shit on him, that went beyond him just betting on his own team to win.

[GregoryJoseph]

Scheduled doubleheaders MUST be brought back.

Also, Saturday and Sunday World Series games should be played in DAYTIME.

We had a few days where it was 60 degrees, sunny, and gorgeous during the day but 37 and raining at night. Guess when the games were played?

Why make the players play (and the fans sit) in that crap?

If you're going to play in late October, at least do the right thing.

[TheMojoPin]

Scheduled doubleheaders MUST be brought back.

Also, Saturday and Sunday World Series games should be played in DAYTIME.

Yes and yes, especially to the latter.

[K.C.]

Oh, good God. 3 of those 5 bans (and the reversals) took place decades before the gambling related rules and rulings that Rose violated were put in place and enforced. The other 2 were absurd ones for jobs guys took as casino greeters AFTER they had retired from the game. So, in short, no player or coach with a lifetime ban for actually gambling on games post-Black Sox (like Rose did) has been allowed back.

Rose has never been accused of fixing a game, he's never been proven to have compromised the integrity of a baseball game by betting against his team.

Like I said, the rules that were put in place were in made so strict because of the ownership/player wage disputes and the fixing of a World Series by an entire team because of wage issues.

It's like saying that parts of the U.S. Constitution designed for life in 1800 should be applied word for word to today's circumstances.

The circumstances of 1989 were drastically different than 1919.

Rose was a degenerate. Any other addict in baseball is afforded ample opportunity to clean themselves up except a gambling addict.

[Snoogans]

how come gvac hasnt quit on the reds when they suck worse than the Bengals?

[K.C.]

The 2 guys you mention got in trouble cause they were arrested for it. None of these roiders ever got in trouble with the law

Has there been any mention of banning Bonds or Clemens from baseball if they're convicted in their looming perjury trials?

It's a double standard.

There are many more things that compromise the integrity of the game than what Pete Rose did.

[Snoogans]

The circumstances of 1989 were drastically different than 1919.

Rose was a degenerate. Any other addict in baseball is afforded ample opportunity to clean themselves up except a gambling addict.

Yea, in 89, they had a sign that said if you bet on baseball, you are gone for like. In 1919, they didnt. Those guys are all still banned.


Pete Rose KNEW WHAT WOULD HAPPEN EVEN IF HE BET ON HIS OWN TEAM TO WIN. The sign told him. He did it anyway. There is no circumstance past that that makes ANY FUCKIN DIFFERENCE

[GregoryJoseph]

how come gvac hasnt quit on the reds when they suck worse than the Bengals?

See my answer in the NFL thread.

My "quitting" on the Bengals had nothing to do with their record.

If the Reds ever decided to field an entire team of convicted felons I'll drop them too.

[Snoogans]

Has there been any mention of banning Bonds or Clemens from baseball if they're convicted in their looming perjury trials?

It's a double standard.

There are many more things that compromise the integrity of the game than what Pete Rose did.

they werent banned, they were suspended. And yes, had they been convicted while still playin, they would have. But the owners basically banned them themselves by not signing them

[TheMojoPin]

Rose has never been accused of fixing a game, he's never been proven to have compromised the integrity of a baseball game by betting against his team.

Rose was a degenerate. Any other addict in baseball is afforded ample opportunity to clean themselves up except a gambling addict.

Does it say that you're only banned if you bet against your team?

And really, you said it yourself: he was a gambling addict. Anyone who buys when he says he only bet on his team to win is in some deep denial.

All of these hypotheticals about who else should be banned for other circumstances are missing the key point: Rose knowingly did something that everyone knew without a doubt would get you banned for life. If the rule isn't there stating a lifetime ban, complaining that someone isn't being lifetime banned for something is a totally different issue and stacking it up to Rose is a straw man. We're not arguing the morality of Rose's gambling relative to anything else: we're arguing about him willfully breaking a clearly stated and enforced rule.

[epo]

Betting on your team as a manager is a complete bastardization of the game that Rose claimed to love.

Fuck him, I hope the lifetime ban stands.

[Snoogans]

See my answer in the NFL thread.

My "quitting" on the Bengals had nothing to do with their record.

If the Reds ever decided to field an entire team of convicted felons I'll drop them too.

tell me 1 pro sports team that doesnt have criminals on it.

hypocrisy. You rooted for tons of criminals in Cincy, LIKE PETE ROSE

[Snoogans]

Does it say that you're only banned if you bet against your team?

And really, you said it yourself: he was a gambling addict. Anyone who buys when he says he only bet on his team to win is in some deep denial.

i made the point to you on aim

if he really bet his team to win and just that every game, he is retarded, and doesnt deserve a job anyway

[TheMojoPin]

Betting on your team as a manager is a complete bastardization of the game that Rose claimed to love.

That's one of the parts that really bugs me about this: Rose was such a student of the game and his history, so you know that he, maybe more than anyone, knew exactly what he was doing and what the ramifications would be if he was caught.

[K.C.]

Does it say that you're only banned if you bet against your team?

And really, you said it yourself: he was a gambling addict. Anyone who buys when he says he only bet on his team to win is in some deep denial.

The goal of any rule book is to uphold the integrity of the game.

The lifetime ban rule was implemented because the gambling in the early history of the game compromised the integrity of the game.

Pete Rose:
1) has never been proven to have thrown games.
2) has never been proven to have had a vested interest in throwing games.
3) on the scale of compromising the integrity of the game, has done less damage to the game, then entire generation of players that followed him.

I'm not saying the guy shouldn't have been punished.

I'm saying the punishment is extreme considering the circumstances.

And at this point, I firmly believe it has as much to do with people's distaste for him as a personality, then what he actually did.

[K.C.]

i made the point to you on aim

if he really bet his team to win and just that every game, he is retarded, and doesnt deserve a job anyway

My understanding of the situation (according to him, at least), is that he bet multiple games, but also bet on his team, kind of like when you're a fan of a team and throw some money down for good measure.

It could all be wrong...it's possible. But nothing otherwise has been proven.

[Snoogans]

The goal of any rule book is to uphold the integrity of the game.

The lifetime ban rule was implemented because the gambling in the early history of the game compromised the integrity of the game.

Pete Rose:
1) has never been proven to have thrown games.
2) has never been proven to have had a vested interest in throwing games.
3) on the scale of compromising the integrity of the game, has done less damage to the game, then entire generation of players that followed him.

I'm not saying the guy shouldn't have been punished.

I'm saying the punishment is extreme considering the circumstances.

And at this point, I firmly believe it has as much to do with people's distaste for him as a personality, then what he actually did.

it doesnt matter. Can you take that chance? He is a degenerate gambler to the point that he was allowed to bet on ANYTHING but baseball and still had to bet on baseball. Can you trust that guy? Can you POSSIBLY believe him 100% when he lied 10000 times before and can you possibly let him in a clubhouse?

You have to be kidding right?

[TheMojoPin]

So it says in the rules that lifetime ban only applies if you bet against your team?

And fuck it, you could easily argue that only betting to win (which everybody knows he didn't do) still compromises the integrity of the game. It's often relatively easy to bend or break the game rules in baseball...how easy would it be for a manager betting on his team to encourage or condone that? Maybe as a manager he lets someone play through pain that he should be sitting just because he wants that cash.

Fuck him.

[K.C.]

Betting on your team as a manager is a complete bastardization of the game that Rose claimed to love.

Fuck him, I hope the lifetime ban stands.

How, unless he bet against his team?

That does less to compromise the integrity of the game than cheating, which all these steroids users did.

[Snoogans]

My understanding of the situation (according to him, at least), is that he bet multiple games, but also bet on his team, kind of like when you're a fan of a team and throw some money down for good measure.

It could all be wrong...it's possible. But nothing otherwise has been proven.

well if he bet on a game that wasnt his team, thats already wrong. Cause he has inside info as a manager that he should be allowed to have and profit on. Thats the point, its about more than just the integrity of the game as you see it. That effects the integrity as well.

[K.C.]

it doesnt matter. Can you take that chance? He is a degenerate gambler to the point that he was allowed to bet on ANYTHING but baseball and still had to bet on baseball. Can you trust that guy? Can you POSSIBLY believe him 100% when he lied 10000 times before and can you possibly let him in a clubhouse?

You have to be kidding right?

It's not like we're talking about getting Pete Rose behind the bench of the Reds, again though.

It's a separate question. Would I hire Pete Rose for my baseball team? Fuck no.

But should he be allowed to be recognized for his accomplishments? Yes, there's no proof that what he did compromised a game.

[Snoogans]

It's not like we're talking about getting Pete Rose behind the bench of the Reds, again though.

It's a separate question. Would I hire Pete Rose for my baseball team? Fuck no.

But should he be allowed to be recognized for his accomplishments? Yes, there's no proof that what he did compromised a game.

all of us have already said his name should be in the Hall. At least mojo did anyway. But he cant be reinstated, which is what you are arguing. Which means he is ALLOWED BACK INTO BASEBALL

[spoon]

Steroids were illegal under US law. Two players (Ferguson Jenkins and Steve How) received bans (that were later rescinded) for cocaine use/possession.

The same rules that apply to illicit drug use should have applied to steroids since they're one and the same.

It was never enforced. The "it wasn't illegal" line is straight out of the Selig PR machine.

Exactly the point I was going to respond with here. It's amazing how people will make a million excuses for steroids and fail to see the negative impact on the game.

[K.C.]

So it says in the rules that lifetime ban only applies if you bet against your team?

And fuck it, you could easily argue that only betting to win (which everybody knows he didn't do) still compromises the integrity of the game. It's often relatively easy to bend or break the game rules in baseball...how easy would it be for a manager betting on his team to encourage or condone that? Maybe as a manager he lets someone play through pain that he should be sitting just because he wants that cash.

Fuck him.

You should be banned from baseball if you affect the validity of what you're watching on the field, and nothing Pete Rose did has been proven to have done that.

As far as rule breaking goes, find me a manager that doesn't condone taking every inch they're given.

The "maybes" and "ifs" are all well and good, but none of that has any factual relevance to the situation.

[Snoogans]

Exactly the point I was going to respond with here. It's amazing how people will make a million excuses for steroids and fail to see the negative impact on the game.

positive impact. The impact that made people want to watch. PUT STEROIDS BACK IN

Baseball has been so boring since they were gone. WE WANT ROIDS

[K.C.]

all of us have already said his name should be in the Hall. At least mojo did anyway. But he cant be reinstated, which is what you are arguing. Which means he is ALLOWED BACK INTO BASEBALL

Reinstated also means attending games, attending on-field ceremonies.

He should be allowed to do all that.

It should be up to the teams to decide whether they want him back as an active part of the game. I have no problem with anyone saying they don't think he should be anywhere near having an influential role in an active baseball game.

[TheMojoPin]

You should be banned from baseball if you affect the validity of what you're watching on the field, and nothing Pete Rose did has been proven to have done that.

As far as rule breaking goes, find me a manager that doesn't condone taking every inch they're given.

The "maybes" and "ifs" are all well and good, but none of that has any factual relevance to the situation.

What was proven is that he bet on the games as a manager.

I ask again: do the rules stipulate that a lifetime ban is only applicable if someone bets against their team?

[Snoogans]

Reinstated also means attending games, attending on-field ceremonies.

He should be allowed to do all that.

It should be up to the teams to decide whether they want him back as an active part of the game. I have no problem with anyone saying they don't think he should be anywhere near having an influential role in an active baseball game.

no he shouldnt. He shouldnt even be allowed at cooperstown to see his own HOF shit. Put him in the HOF as a player. He is such a dick and degenerate he should not be allowed near a field, even a fuckin HS one.

Fuck him

[K.C.]

well if he bet on a game that wasnt his team, thats already wrong. Cause he has inside info as a manager that he should be allowed to have and profit on. Thats the point, its about more than just the integrity of the game as you see it. That effects the integrity as well.

That would compromise the integrity of gambling, not the integrity of baseball.

[epo]

How, unless he bet against his team?

That does less to compromise the integrity of the game than cheating, which all these steroids users did.

Comparing steroid users to gambling on the sport is a complete logical fallacy in the course of this discussion. Stop muddying the water.

And whether you are betting on or against your team as a manager, you are totally bastardizing your decision-making process as the leader. Its about that short-term personal gain, versus the real decisions a manager must make for the good of the team., not your filthy wallet.

[Snoogans]

That would compromise the integrity of gambling, not the integrity of baseball.

yea baseball it still would. People are still human. Say pete gets some inside info from a buddy on the other club and bets alot. You dont think that buddy might try to help him? Maybe not, but maybe. Fuck arod was tipping pitches to OTHER TEAMS to try to pad his own stats. Imagine what they would do to make some money.

Stop being blind. It effects everything. It could effect players careers too. He bet his team to win, fine, maybe he manages to try to win every game and money, sacrificing guys health. Why would that be ok?

You need to think about a wider scope of things, bro

[TheMojoPin]

Exactly the point I was going to respond with here. It's amazing how people will make a million excuses for steroids and fail to see the negative impact on the game.

I'm not making excuses. I said already, if someone gets away with something before the rules are created and enforced, as the scores of gambling players did before the Black Sox got busted, hey, good for them. Once the rules are in place, you're fucked. The steroids rules are in place now and if someone gets busted, they're fucked. If they want to put in an immediate lifetime ban for them, hey, that's MLB's perogative and if anyone gets busted after that they're fucked. That's how it is. Why should the rules for these thing be made easier or lifted after the fact?

Besides, the steroids issue should have absolutely nothing to do with Rose's fate. They're completely different issues.

[K.C.]

What was proven is that he bet on the games as a manager.

I ask again: do the rules stipulate that a lifetime ban is only applicable if someone bets against their team?

I'll answer your question like this:

As the quasi-communist that your are, do you believe the U.S. constitution should be followed word for word as it was written in the late 18th century?

What the rules, word for word state, their original intention, and the circumstances of the Rose situation actually are, should all be pulled together to make an informed opinion on what his actions actually did to the game.

[jauble]

This thread no longer represents its original intent and the title change reflects this. This was supposed to be a make fun of Epo thread like all the Farve goodness.

[Snoogans]

I'll answer your question like this:

As the quasi-communist that your are, do you believe the U.S. constitution should be followed word for word as it was written in the late 18th century?

What the rules, word for word state, their original intention, and the circumstances of the Rose situation actually are, should all be pulled together to make an informed opinion on what his actions actually did to the game.

read mine and epos last post

[TheMojoPin]

I'll answer your question like this:

As the quasi-communist that your are, do you believe the U.S. constitution should be followed word for word as it was written in the late 18th century?

What the rules, word for word state, their original intention, and the circumstances of the Rose situation actually are, should all be pulled together to make an informed opinion on what his actions actually did to the game.

We're not talking about the fucking U.S. Constitution: we're talking about the rules regarding gambling in baseball and Pete Rose. It's intellectually dishonest to act as if my opinions on the interpretation of the Constitution have to match or even be similar to my opinions on Rose and gambling in baseball. That's an absurd analogy and expectation since one is in regard to running a gigantic country and the other is about guys playing baseball and gambling.

I agree with the basic idea behind these rules: players and coaches should not be allowed to gamble on baseball games and will suffer a liftetime ban if caught. That's it. I see zero reason to change or make the rules more leniant because I think they've been exceedingly effective to this point and to do so would be foolish and pointless.

[K.C.]

yea baseball it still would. People are still human. Say pete gets some inside info from a buddy on the other club and bets alot. You dont think that buddy might try to help him? Maybe not, but maybe. Fuck arod was tipping pitches to OTHER TEAMS to try to pad his own stats. Imagine what they would do to make some money.

Stop being blind. It effects everything. It could effect players careers too. He bet his team to win, fine, maybe he manages to try to win every game and money, sacrificing guys health. Why would that be ok?

You need to think about a wider scope of things, bro

Why do I need to think of things in a wider scope on this, but in a narrower scope on roids, which you guys seem to be arguing.

You all seem to have no problem coming up with a vast array of "what if" questions regarding gambling, but suggest that we need to take the roids issue at face value because it wasn't specifically against the rules (even though I'm pretty sure committing federal crimes is).

Things need to be treated the same way, and that should be in terms of the on the field damage it does to the game.

I'm not saying you guys don't make good points about what Rose could have done or been doing. But none of that has been proven.

So it's hard to say definitively that he did any real damage to the game of baseball. He certainly didn't do what the 1919 Black Sox did.

And I really think it's not even in the same league as what the CRIMINALS of the 90s did to more or less render some of the most hallowed records of the game irrelevant.

[K.C.]

We're not talking about the fucking U.S. Constitution: we're talking about the rules regarding gambling in baseball and Pete Rose. It's intellectually dishonest to act as if my opinions on the interpretation of the Constitution have to match or even be similar to my opinions on Rose and gambling in baseball. That's an absurd analogy and expectation since one is in regard to running a gigantic country and the other is about guys playing baseball and gambling.

I agree with the basic idea behind these rules: players and coaches should not be allowed to gamble on baseball games and will suffer a liftetime ban if caught. That's it. I see zero reason to change or make the rules more leniant because I think they've been exceedingly effective to this point and to do so would be foolish and pointless.

I'm trying to reconcile why you're such a strict constructionist when it comes to this. It doesn't make sense.

[Snoogans]

Why do I need to think of things in a wider scope on this, but in a narrower scope on roids, which you guys seem to be arguing.

You all seem to have no problem coming up with a vast array of "what if" question regarding gambling, but suggest that we need to take the roids issue at face value because it wasn't specifically against the rules (even though I'm pretty sure committing federal crimes is).

Things need to be treated the same way, and that should be in terms of the on the field damage it does to the game.

I'm not saying you guys don't make good point about what Rose could have done or been doing. But none of that has been proven.

So it's hard to say definitively that he did any real damage to the game of baseball. He certainly didn't do what the 1919 Black Sox did.

And I really think it's not even in the same league as what the CRIMINALS of the 90s did to more or less render some of the most hallowed records of the game irrelevant.

because this argument isnt about roids or what was a bigger impact. Its about pete rose and whether he should be allowed back in baseball for what HE did. What happened since then on a different topic doesnt matter.

Thats you tryin to deflect because you know you are losing the argument very badly.

Everyone knows my point on steroids, it makes the game more entertaining, so i like them. But I obviously know what impact they have on the game and changing it. Im not fuckin stupid.

But that has NOTHING to do with the point im making. Stick to one topic, maybe you wont get dominated so hard

[TheMojoPin]

I'm trying to reconcile why you're such a strict constructionist when it comes to this. It doesn't make sense.

Because it's baseball. It can be. That's how it's always been.

Why shouldn't this be strictly enforced? Why should players and coaches be encouraged to bet on games in any capacity?

[K.C.]

because this argument isnt about roids or what was a bigger impact. Its about pete rose and whether he should be allowed back in baseball for what HE did. What happened since then on a different topic doesnt matter.

Thats you tryin to deflect because you know you are losing the argument very badly.

Everyone knows my point on steroids, it makes the game more entertaining, so i like them. But I obviously know what impact they have on the game and changing it. Im not fuckin stupid.

But that has NOTHING to do with the point im making. Stick to one topic, maybe you wont get dominated so hard

Sure it does.

It has to do with the fact that the entire argument for upholding Rose's ban, according to Major League Baseball, is the "integrity of the game" issue.

You have to be blind to not see the complete hypocrisy of that in light of the last 15 years.

[TheMojoPin]

Sure it does.

It has to do with the fact that the entire argument for upholding Rose's ban, according to Major League Baseball, is the "integrity of the game" issue.

You have to be blind to not see the complete hypocrisy of that in light of the last 15 years.

And yet again, I've said repeatedly I have no problem with them setting rules regarding steroids and enforcing them...as they did with gambling.

And I think you're very much downplaying how big a story Rose getting caught was. It was a huge story and it was indeed an embarassment for MLB.

[Snoogans]

Sure it does.

It has to do with the fact that the entire argument for upholding Rose's ban, according to Major League Baseball, is the "integrity of the game" issue.

You have to be blind to not see the complete hypocrisy of that in light of the last 15 years.

It doesnt matter. You are like a murderer tryin to get out of jail arguing about how some other guy got out of jail for murder when the cases had nothing to do with each other.

Rose broke a rule he knew would ban him for life, showed no remorse, lied about it for years and years and then tried to profit off the truth.

He was allowed to gamble on any sport except baseball and was such a cock he still bet on baseball, yet you BELIEVE WHAT ROSE SAYS about how it never effected the game, being blind to the fact is sure as shit would change the way he managed the game, possibly negatively.

You wanna debate steroids, thats a seperate issue, but there is ZERO reason rose should be in baseball, and sayin he should because some other guys got away with some different shit is not a valid point

[GregoryJoseph]

I've been saying for over a year now that K.C. should be a mod here.

At least we'd have SOMEBODY with half a brain on that staff...

[K.C.]

Because it's baseball. It can be. That's how it's always been.

Why shouldn't this be strictly enforced? Why should players and coaches be encouraged to bet on games in any capacity?

At no point have I ever said he shouldn't be punished.

What I've said is that the punishment doesn't fit. If you go back through baseball history, the rule was spawned because owners like Comiskey were such cheap fucks that the players decided they were going to get theirs by fixing games.

That deserves a lifetime ban (even though I see the player's point of view and why they did it), because it makes the game irrelevant at that point.


Rose getting a lifetime ban for something significant less compromising, while in terms of the rule, is valid, makes no real sense to me as there are far more things that give the game a black eye...some addressed, some not addressed.

Should he have been punished? Yes. Should he have been suspended? Yes. Should he have been made to clean himself up before lifting the suspension? Yes.

Should he be banned unequivicably from the game? Not unless you can prove it.

And I guess that's where we part ways. You guys see him as having perpetrated some evil on the game. I don't necessarily see it based on what we know.

[Snoogans]

At no point have I ever said he shouldn't be punished.

What I've said is that the punishment doesn't fit. If you go back through baseball history, the rule was spawned because owners like Comiskey were such cheap fucks that the players decided they were going to get theirs by fixing games.

That deserves a lifetime ban (even though I see the player's point of view and why they did it), because it makes the game irrelevant at that point.


Rose getting a lifetime ban for something significant less compromising, while in terms of the rule, is valid, makes no real sense to me as there are far more things that give the game a black eye...some addressed, some not addressed.

Should he have been punished? Yes. Should he have been suspended? Yes. Should he have been made to clean himself up before lifting the suspension? Yes.

Should he be banned unequivicably from the game? Not unless you can prove it.

And I guess that's where we part ways. You guys see him as having perpetrated some evil on the game. I don't necessarily see it based on what we know.

PROVE IT. HE ADMITTED IT. BETTING ON YOUR TEAM STILL COMPROMISES THE GAME. AND YOU CANT LET HIM BACK IN CAUSE HE LIED SO MUCH WHO KNOWS WHATS TRUE AND WETHER HE WOULD DO IT AGAIN. STOP IT

[K.C.]

Rose broke a rule he knew would ban him for life, showed no remorse, lied about it for years and years and then tried to profit off the truth.


That's the point I'm trying to make!

The purpose of the lifetime rule ban is for outdated reasons, and furthermore, most of the venom directed at Rose is personally motivated by how he handled himself.

If you go by the affect of what he did, it pales in comparison to other gambling cases, let alone other things that have tarnished the game.

And that should be the barometer, in my opinion...how much you tarnish the game. Not the letter of the rule.

[TheMojoPin]

The rule clearly states a lifetime ban for gambling on baseball games, period.

If they want to start giving lifetime bans for any steroid use I'd be behind that, too.

It's their perogative to do so and I think ultimately it does far more to enforce rules they want to enforce as opposed to end up punishing people who subjectively were treated too "harshly."

[TheMojoPin]

That's the point I'm trying to make!

The purpose of the lifetime rule ban is for outdated reasons, and furthermore, most of the venom directed at Rose is personally motivated by how he handled himself.

If you go by the affect of what he did, it pales in comparison to other gambling cases, let alone other things that have tarnished the game.

And that should be the barometer, in my opinion...how much you tarnish the game. Not the letter of the rule.

He's done nothing but tarnish the game for 20 years. By that thinking baseball should be able to publically execute him at this point.

[Snoogans]

That's the point I'm trying to make!

The purpose of the lifetime rule ban is for outdated reasons, and furthermore, most of the venom directed at Rose is personally motivated by how he handled himself.

If you go by the affect of what he did, it pales in comparison to other gambling cases, let alone other things that have tarnished the game.

And that should be the barometer, in my opinion...how much you tarnish the game. Not the letter of the rule.

no, the point was most of your argument for rose is based on what he said, when he did nothing but prove you cant rely on what he said. But you are willing to take what he says 100% and let him back in baseball on that. Do you not seehow insane this is?

[K.C.]

no, the point was most of your argument for rose is based on what he said, when he did nothing but prove you cant rely on what he said. But you are willing to take what he says 100% and let him back in baseball on that. Do you not seehow insane this is?

It's not based on what he said, it's based on lack of proof as to what he actually did.

Nobody's ever come forth and said he fixed games.

All we know is that he bet on baseball games, and he bet on the Reds. The Dowd Report explicitly states no evidence of betting against the Reds or fixing games.

[Snoogans]

It's not based on what he said, it's based on lack of proof as to what he actually did.

Nobody's ever come forth and said he fixed games.

All we know is that he bet on baseball games, and he bet on the Reds. The Dowd Report explicitly states no evidence of betting against the Reds or fixing games.

yea but he bet on the reds to win every game. So he might have left guys in longer than he should, or made moves he shouldnt, sacrificing careers possibly and the long term of the team and possibly even other teams. That cant be ignored, which you seem to be doing

[TheMojoPin]

It's not based on what he said, it's based on lack of proof as to what he actually did.

Nobody's ever come forth and said he fixed games.

All we know is that he bet on baseball games, and he bet on the Reds. The Dowd Report explicitly states no evidence of betting against the Reds or fixing games.

The rule was never exclusive to fixing. There's zero reason to tolerate a baseball player betting on their own games, or any baseball games at all.

[TheMojoPin]

yea but he bet on the reds to win every game. So he might have left guys in longer than he should, or made moves he shouldnt, sacrificing careers possibly and the long term of the team and possibly even other teams. That cant be ignored, which you seem to be doing

Oh come on, there's no reason to think a guy that would almost cripple someone over an ASG would risk anyone's career.

[K.C.]

yea but he bet on the reds to win every game. So he might have left guys in longer than he should, or made moves he shouldnt, sacrificing careers possibly and the long term of the team and possibly even other teams. That cant be ignored, which you seem to be doing


So Dusty Baker should be banned for life as well?

[TheMojoPin]

So Dusty Baker should be banned for life as well?

At the very least.

[Kevin]

At the very least.



Not while he is managing the Reds.

[underdog]

So Dusty Baker should be banned for life as well?

I think we can all agree on that.

[spoon]

I'm not making excuses. I said already, if someone gets away with something before the rules are created and enforced, as the scores of gambling players did before the Black Sox got busted, hey, good for them. Once the rules are in place, you're fucked. The steroids rules are in place now and if someone gets busted, they're fucked. If they want to put in an immediate lifetime ban for them, hey, that's MLB's perogative and if anyone gets busted after that they're fucked. That's how it is. Why should the rules for these thing be made easier or lifted after the fact?

Besides, the steroids issue should have absolutely nothing to do with Rose's fate. They're completely different issues.

The last part simply isn't true. They're both issues that compromised the game. It's perfectly logical to compare how both were handled, whether you agree in either case or not.

And Shaun, your point on a positive impact is nothing short of stupid.

[spoon]

Yet I do believe Rose should be out, along with all the proven steroid users. If it was so accepted, why didn't they just come out and state they used it? They damn well knew they were cheating then as much as they do now. The difference is the league stopped looking the other way, even if they still aren't truly attacking the issue.

[TheMojoPin]

The last part simply isn't true. They're both issues that compromised the game. It's perfectly logical to compare how both were handled, whether you agree in either case or not.

No it's not, because the circmstances are completely different. Rose broke the cardinal rule of baseball that had been clearly established for decades. The "steroid era" took place when there were either no rules covering the issue or what tenative ones there were never made official or enforced. Now there are clear rules on the steroids issue and they should be enforced, just like the gambling rules. You can only make the comparison "logical" by making it as broad as possible with the "compromised the game issue," which hasn't been what those of us who agree with his banning have been arguing. It's guys like you and K.C. who are bringing up the integrity of the game: we're talking about Rose straight up breaking THE rule in baseball.

[Doogie]

I cant believe no one called K.C. out for being such a Phillies fan that he wants Rose reinstated cause he helped the championship team of 1980 win a World Series.

I dont know what is in that report Bart Giamatti had, but it had to be damning enough that mother fucker didnt put up a fight. Rose's Reds were in 2nd place in 1988, as Mojo stated earlier he had the power to affect his team by what players could and could not play. He had the ultimate inside information and could effect the outcome. Now did he?? Who knows. But just the concept that we can't believe Pete Rose goes to show why this man should stay banned. We all agree he is a degenerate gambler and a liar. Why believe him now? Why lift the ban? Fuck him.