2010-11 MLB Offseason Thread

[TheGameHHH]

they offered 3 for 63. he wants 4 cause posada got 4, even though posada got 4 for 60. If i was hal, Id tell jeter to go fuck himself and lower it to 3 for 45 cause jeter said no. Fuck him. He doesnt deserve shit.

On a side note, the yankees made the offer and basically announced he wasnt worth it and it was for past shit. I think that pissed him off a little

where do you guys keep seeing this news that they made him an offer? every beat writer ive read has said they have not made the initial offer yet but will soon.

[Earlshog]

The A's reportedly are making a push for third baseman Adrian Beltre, throwing a lucrative offer at the free-agent slugger and hoping history won't repeat itself. ESPN Deportes reported Wednesday that Oakland offered a five-year, $64 million contract to Beltre, who turned down the A's overtures last winter to sign with the Boston Red Sox. The A's declined to comment on the report, but they desperately need an impact middle-of-the-lineup hitter.

[spoon]

If I were Cashman and Stein, I'd give him his 4th year at a severe cost. Drop the 3/63 offer to 4/70 or less. It would be a dicky power move and all, but Jeter has to realize his value at the end isn't even CLOSE.

Truth be told, I hope they give him 5/100 and lock in that shitty gold glover along with an aging Arod into their 40s at a premium. We'll see what happens soon enough.

[HBox]

The Yanks signed Larry Rothschild to be their new pitching coach.

[underdog]

The A's reportedly are making a push for third baseman Adrian Beltre, throwing a lucrative offer at the free-agent slugger and hoping history won't repeat itself. ESPN Deportes reported Wednesday that Oakland offered a five-year, $64 million contract to Beltre, who turned down the A's overtures last winter to sign with the Boston Red Sox. The A's declined to comment on the report, but they desperately need an impact middle-of-the-lineup hitter.

Why would anyone sign Beltre to a long term contract? MLB GMs are becoming as bad as NBA GMs.

[Earlshog]

TOTALLY FAKE BASEBALL CARDS: 29 Derek Jeters you won’t see in 2011 … and one you just might

http://blogbeckett.wordpress.com/2010/11/24/totally-fake-baseball-cards-29-derek-jeters-you-wont-see-in-2011-and-one-you-just-might/

[TheGameHHH]

TOTALLY FAKE BASEBALL CARDS: 29 Derek Jeters you won’t see in 2011 … and one you just might

http://blogbeckett.wordpress.com/2010/11/24/totally-fake-baseball-cards-29-derek-jeters-you-wont-see-in-2011-and-one-you-just-might/

love this one....

http://blogbeckett.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/jetercardroyals.jpg

[WRESTLINGFAN]

R.I.P. Ron Santo


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/baseball/mlb/12/03/ron.santo.obit.ap/index.html?eref=sihp

[epo]

R.I.P. Ron Santo


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/baseball/mlb/12/03/ron.santo.obit.ap/index.html?eref=sihp

Somewhere TheMojopin is sad.

[Earlshog]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/baseball/mlb/12/02/white.sox.dunn/index.html?eref=sihp



The White Sox have reached a deal with slugger Adam Dunn, SI.com has learned.
The deal is for $56 million over four years.

Will be interesting to see where Konerko lands. Any chance he is a cubs uni next year?

[cougarjake13]

TOTALLY FAKE BASEBALL CARDS: 29 Derek Jeters you won’t see in 2011 … and one you just might

http://blogbeckett.wordpress.com/2010/11/24/totally-fake-baseball-cards-29-derek-jeters-you-wont-see-in-2011-and-one-you-just-might/

just looks weird as a met

[TripleSkeet]

When I listen to sportsradio I listen to WIP, but every once in awhile when Im work Ill put on The Fan out of NY. It seems like all they talk about is baseball. Even though its December and both NY football teams are in a position to make the playoffs. That baffles me.

Today a caller called in and said the Yanks should offer Jeter more because he is going to break Pete Roses hits record and I almost choked on my drink and had to turn it off.

[KnoxHarrington]

When I listen to sportsradio I listen to WIP, but every once in awhile when Im work Ill put on The Fan out of NY. It seems like all they talk about is baseball. Even though its December and both NY football teams are in a position to make the playoffs. That baffles me.

Today a caller called in and said the Yanks should offer Jeter more because he is going to break Pete Roses hits record and I almost choked on my drink and had to turn it off.

He's 36 and has 2,926 hits, which is 1,330 short of Pete Rose.

Even averaging 200 hits a season, that's 6 1/2 more seasons, and he'd be 43 years old.

No way. No fucking way.

[epo]

Adrian Gonzalez to the Red Sox (http://www.nesn.com/2010/12/report-red-sox-acquire-adrian-gonzalez.html)

It appears to be for prospects and depends upon a contract extension. Solid move for the Sox.

[TheGameHHH]

Looks like Jeter's deal should be finished this weekend (http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/news/story?id=5882745)

[Dan 'Hampton]

Adrian Gonzalez to the Red Sox (http://www.nesn.com/2010/12/report-red-sox-acquire-adrian-gonzalez.html)

It appears to be for prospects and depends upon a contract extension. Solid move for the Sox.


Extremely excited about this, give up top prospects but get an absolute masher and gold glover. Mark Teixiera who?

[cougarjake13]

He's 36 and has 2,926 hits, which is 1,330 short of Pete Rose.

Even averaging 200 hits a season, that's 6 1/2 more seasons, and he'd be 43 years old.

No way. No fucking way.

his 162 game avg over his career is 207 but i dont think he'll do it


outside shot he gets to 4000 but not much more

[Snoogans]

his 162 game avg over his career is 207 but i dont think he'll do it


outside shot he gets to 4000 but not much more

i dont think jeter will even get to 3500. he is finished

[cougarjake13]

i dont think jeter will even get to 3500. he is finished

barring a major injury 500 hits over the next 4 years for the deal hes rumored to get isnt that hard

[sailor]

Not that I think he's got any chance to do it, but how long did rose play?

edit: rose retired at 45.

[joeyballsack]

At the age of 36, Pete Rose had 2966 hits.

At the age of 36, Derek Jeter has 2926 hits.

I am not saying Jeter is going to take the hits title, but it is possible.

[Earlshog]

his 162 game avg over his career is 207 but i dont think he'll do it


outside shot he gets to 4000 but not much more


If he gets to 4,000, unles he totally falls apart he will find away to scratch together another 257

[Earlshog]

When I listen to sportsradio I listen to WIP, but every once in awhile when Im work Ill put on The Fan out of NY. It seems like all they talk about is baseball. Even though its December and both NY football teams are in a position to make the playoffs. That baffles me.

Today a caller called in and said the Yanks should offer Jeter more because he is going to break Pete Roses hits record and I almost choked on my drink and had to turn it off.

New York is a baseball town, always has been. In philly they are talking about the Eagles in July with the Phils in the hunt. 6 one half dozen of the other.

I have heard alot crazier then that. If you think of it if he plays as long as Rose (till he is 45) he would need to average 135 hits a year.

Next season will tell the tale. If he bounces back to the .300 neighborhood it shows this season was an anomaly and hes got more in the tank. If he further deteriorates it becomes clear father time is catching up and it may be time to bag it at the end of this contract.

[sailor]

Eh, both sports get discussed on here year-round, why would the radio be any different?

[KnoxHarrington]

New York is a baseball town, always has been. In philly they are talking about the Eagles in July with the Phils in the hunt. 6 one half dozen of the other.

I have heard alot crazier then that. If you think of it if he plays as long as Rose (till he is 45) he would need to average 135 hits a year.

Next season will tell the tale. If he bounces back to the .300 neighborhood it shows this season was an anomaly and hes got more in the tank. If he further deteriorates it becomes clear father time is catching up and it may be time to bag it at the end of this contract.

The thing about Pete Rose is that he probably got to play longer than he probably should have been because he came back to Cincinnati and hung on a few more seasons, just because he was so beloved there (and still is, really; there will always be a Pete Rose Way in Cincy, no matter what Bud Selig might think) that they couldn't refuse him. As beloved as Jeter is, I don't think he'll be accorded the same courtesy, and if the level of his play does appear to have gone into decline by the time this new contract is up, that'll be it.

The thing is, too, I don't see Jeter being willing to go to some loser piece of shit franchise like Kansas City or Milwaukee to get the record either. If he breaks it, he will break it as a Yankee. Or maybe if the Yankees really piss him off, he breaks it with the Red Sox. But he's not going to bounce from team to team in a desperate attempt to get the record.

[Snoogans]

New York is a baseball town, always has been. In philly they are talking about the Eagles in July with the Phils in the hunt. 6 one half dozen of the other.

I have heard alot crazier then that. If you think of it if he plays as long as Rose (till he is 45) he would need to average 135 hits a year.

Next season will tell the tale. If he bounces back to the .300 neighborhood it shows this season was an anomaly and hes got more in the tank. If he further deteriorates it becomes clear father time is catching up and it may be time to bag it at the end of this contract.

NY is a baseball town when the knicks and st johns sucks. If the knicks ever were perennial title contenders this would be a basketball town

[Snacks]

at 40 he also lead the league in hits. jeter wont be leading the league in anything except maybe errors and not because hes a good defender but because he doesnt go for balls that the normal ss does. look at this year, he won the gg because of fielding % no other reason. the reason his % was so high was he doesnt go for half the balls he should.

[TheGameHHH]

Jason Werth....you're better than that (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5888329)

[Snacks]

Jason Werth....you're better than that (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5888329)

no hes not, he got 7 years $126 million. he was good but not that good. hes had what 3 solid seasons in a row and isnt he 30 or 31 already? he played in philly with a good line up and a hitters park. lets not make him out to be a stud. i like him but now i understand how philly wasnt going to resign him if he was asking for that kind of money.

Crawford who is younger isnt asking for that much and hes and all around better player. Now he will be!

I would rather have Dunn who doesnt hit for avg but play OF and 1b and hits 40 hrs every year no matter where he plays and gets 100 rbis. he signed for 4 years $56 million.

[TripleSkeet]

Jason Werth....you're better than that (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5888329)

Yea well he got his ring. Now hes set for life. I still would take less just to not play in Washington.

[Snacks]

Yea well he got his ring. Now hes set for life. I still would take less just to not play in Washington.

i agree a little. i think wash is an upcoming team with a lot of young talent. they should be competitive next year or the year following. i do think they will regret this deal more then him. $18 million a year for a werth is a lot of money, about 6 million more then i thought he would get.

[spoon]

Washington has been amassing quite an arsenal of young talent and will be a team to watch in the near future. This can only help. I wouldn't laugh so much on this signing. I for one am happy he didn't land in Boston or NY.

[spoon]

I think Werth is one heck of a player. Speed, glove, sparkplug and hit for power/avg. I see this as a good move for any team looking for help in the OF, and he can pretty much play any spot out there including center.

[cougarjake13]

Jason Werth....you're better than that (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5888329)

fell in love with strasburg

[HBox]

Washington has been amassing quite an arsenal of young talent and will be a team to watch in the near future. This can only help. I wouldn't laugh so much on this signing. I for one am happy he didn't land in Boston or NY.

I agree about Washington's talent but I still think it will take time for it all to come together and by then I think Werth will be an albatross with that kind of contract.

[spoon]

I agree about Washington's talent but I still think it will take time for it all to come together and by then I think Werth will be an albatross with that kind of contract.

Could be, but I wouldn't put it past them moving him before that if they don't make a run earlier. Also, it's the NL East they have to compete in, not the AL East. This is a huge factor in my mind. Not to mention they just took a guy who did this for the division's top team.

"Werth had an .889 on-base-plus-slugging percentage the past three seasons, which ranked 10th in the Majors for right-handed hitters and fifth among right-handed-hitting outfielders. His 87 home runs ranked eighth among right-handed hitters and second to Milwaukee's Ryan Braun (94) among right-handed-hitting outfielders.

Werth also stole 53 bases and played strong defense over those three years."

[Jujubees2]

i agree a little. i think wash is an upcoming team with a lot of young talent. they should be competitive next year or the year following. i do think they will regret this deal more then him. $18 million a year for a werth is a lot of money, about 6 million more then i thought he would get.

Where are the Nationals getting the money? They don't draw flies down there.

[cougarjake13]

Where are the Nationals getting the money? They don't draw flies down there.

thats what i was thinking


makes you wonder just how much money these owners pocket when they dont spend huge

[HBox]

thats what i was thinking


makes you wonder just how much money these owners pocket when they dont spend huge

But who else on that team are they paying?

[cougarjake13]

But who else on that team are they paying?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/WSN/2010-roster.shtml




ryan zimmermann and marquis


not much else

[spoon]

Where are the Nationals getting the money? They don't draw flies down there.

They're already drawing more than Baltimore on average.

[cougarjake13]

They're already drawing more than Baltimore on average.

is that tix sales or actual attendance ??

[spoon]

is that tix sales or actual attendance ??

http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance

[TheGameHHH]

thats what i was thinking


makes you wonder just how much money these owners pocket when they dont spend huge

dont say that around spoon, we all know only the yankees and red sox have money. every other owner in this league is poor, they cant afford players of werth's talent.

[brettmojo]

thats what i was thinking


makes you wonder just how much money these owners pocket when they dont spend huge
There was that list that was "leaked'.

[HBox]

So while I wasn't paying attention today the Adrian Gonzalez trade died, then came back to life when the Red Sox and/or Gonzalez agreed to the trade withou an extension.

Apparently Gonzalez wanted a Teixeira like deal and the Sox wouldn't budge from 6 years and 120 million. I don't think today's Werth deal helped matters any.

[OGC]

So while I wasn't paying attention today the Adrian Gonzalez trade died, then came back to life when the Red Sox and/or Gonzalez agreed to the trade withou an extension.

Apparently Gonzalez wanted a Teixeira like deal and the Sox wouldn't budge from 6 years and 120 million. I don't think today's Werth deal helped matters any.

From what I read (http://www.thebostonchannel.com/sports/26026486/detail.html), they have agreed on a contract extension which will be worth more than 20 mil per year but thay won't sign it until next spring which will save the Sox a luxury cap hit this year.

[TripleSkeet]

Washington has been amassing quite an arsenal of young talent and will be a team to watch in the near future. This can only help. I wouldn't laugh so much on this signing. I for one am happy he didn't land in Boston or NY.

Dont get me wrong, I think theyve got talent and potential to be really good. But I still think they over paid for him. And I would still take less to go elsewhere because I cant stand Washington DC as a city, regardless of their team.

[HBox]

From what I read (http://www.thebostonchannel.com/sports/26026486/detail.html), they have agreed on a contract extension which will be worth more than 20 mil per year but thay won't sign it until next spring which will save the Sox a luxury cap hit this year.

I didn't see that. But that has to be against some kind of MLB rules.

[OGC]

I didn't see that. But that has to be against some kind of MLB rules.

why should it be against any rule ? Gonzalez didn't have any sort of no trade clause and he is under contract for next year so essentially the Sox and Padres made a trade and a contract extension will be signed before next season.

Initially after agreeing to the trade with San Diego, the Sox asked for and were granted a short window to explore a contract extension. Even though they didn't agree to the extension, the Sox decided to make the trade and "hope" they can sign Gonzalez before he becomes a free agent after next year.

[TheGameHHH]

I didn't see that. But that has to be against some kind of MLB rules.

no, its actually in full compliance with the rules and pretty smart on the Red Sox behalf

[sailor]

again, i'm not big into contracts, but if it doesn't change his salary for this year, what does it matter if he signs an extension today? wouldn't that only affect future years anyways?

[epo]

Toronto sends Shawn Marcum to Milwaukee. (\http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/111358854.html)

[sailor]

Toronto sends Shawn Marcum to Milwaukee. (\http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/111358854.html)

bad link

[epo]

bad link

Try this one. (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/111358854.html)

[Snacks]

I guess Im not the only one thinking he was overpaid and for too long. He will be 32 at the start of next season. So he will be 39 when this deal ends. Maybe Jeter was right! Wow stupid signing!

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Whoa-Jayson-Werth-signs-with-Nationals-for-7-ye?urn=mlb-292024

And, according to ESPN's Buster Olney, other MLB executives are livid about what Werth's deal means for the league's salary structure.
What will Carl Crawford(notes) command, for example, and how can his contract span any less than eight years?

I thought crawford would make more when the season ended, now what does he get. now what does gonzo get? I thought 18 million for gonzo was fair now gonzo deserves $22 million maybe more. Bad baseball and bad business!

[epo]

Bad idea for Washington? Sure.
Bad idea for Jason Werth? No way!

[A.J.]

Where are the Nationals getting the money? They don't draw flies down there.

The same way the O's make money: when the big visiting teams come to town, the place fills up.

Getting Werth is a great pickup for the Nats.

[midwestjeff]

Getting Werth is a great pickup for the Nats.

Well, sure, since they missed out on the biggest free agent available, the great Lance Berkman. :unsure:

[foodcourtdruide]

The same way the O's make money: when the big visiting teams come to town, the place fills up.

Getting Werth is a great pickup for the Nats.

Are they a better team with Werth than they were with Dunn? Yes. Is it proportional to the additional money they'll be paying Werth over Dunn? No.

[A.J.]

Are they a better team with Werth than they were with Dunn? Yes. Is it proportional to the additional money they'll be paying Werth over Dunn? No.

The amount of money is debatable sure, but the bright spot is that it shows that this team/market is willing to spend in order to compete with bigger market clubs.

[Earlshog]

Jason Werth is a top 15 outfielder. We all know about his offense, don't forget he is a gold glove caliber, versatile outfielder. Werth can play center as well as right. He is a hustle player who brings certain intangibles, intangibles a team like the Nationals desperately need. Did they pay more then The Sox or Phils would have. Sure, but they had to. As a Phillie fan who likes him alot I am happy he got this payday.

I have seen a few articles where they compare this move to the Tigers picking up I-Rod. The Tigers had to overpay due to the fact the situation at the time was so dismal, and its worked out pretty well for Detroit. If the Nats get it turned around they will continue to build a fan base in a lucrative market. The more fans they attract the more $$$ they make.

Peter Angelos sadly has made the once proud Orioles franchise into a joke. It a separate discussion but Baltimore is a baseball city on the decline, not to mention the Orioles play in the ultra competitive Al East. I personally didn't think the Expos should move to D.C. considering the failure of the previous two attempts. I am starting to change my mind on that. If the Nats can put together an exciting, marketable product (and they are well on the way with Zimmerman, Strousburg, Werth, Bryce Harper) the rest will fall into place.

[A.J.]

Peter Angelos sadly has made the once proud Orioles franchise into a joke. It a separate discussion but Baltimore is a baseball city on the decline, not to mention the Orioles play in the ultra competitive Al East.

I disagree. I think you're finally starting to see a turnaround in Baltimore. They have some fine young pitching and they had a great second half last year after Showalter took over. With him at the helm for a full season, they might surprise people next season.

[Earlshog]

I disagree. I think you're finally starting to see a turnaround in Baltimore. They have some fine young pitching and they had a great second half last year after Showalter took over. With him at the helm for a full season, they might surprise people next season.

Feel like we've been hearing this same thing for years now. It's possible but I'll believe it when I see it...

[A.J.]

Feel like we've been hearing this same thing for years now. It's possible but I'll believe it when I see it...

True. But you rarely hear about Angelos as much these days and Buck is a proven team-builder.

[joeyballsack]

Mark Reynolds to the Orioles (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5891074)

[foodcourtdruide]

Mark Reynolds to the Orioles (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5891074)

I didn't even realize he batted .198 last season. That's atrocious.

[A.J.]

So much for my argument about the O's turning it around.

[KnoxHarrington]

I disagree. I think you're finally starting to see a turnaround in Baltimore. They have some fine young pitching and they had a great second half last year after Showalter took over. With him at the helm for a full season, they might surprise people next season.

And Tampa Bay in the past few seasons has shown that the AL East does not have to be the personal playground of the Yankees and Red Sox. They are both beatable, after all.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Well, sure, since they missed out on the biggest free agent available, the great Lance Berkman. :unsure:

Fat Elvis to the Cards


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5884287

[El Mudo]

The amount of money is debatable sure, but the bright spot is that it shows that this team/market is willing to spend in order to compete with bigger market clubs.

I hate the Werth deal. He's not worth twice what Adam Dunn is making, especially since he's been pretty much playing on an All-Star team the last few years.

But hey, any time you can pull the trigger on a 7 year/126 million dollar deal for the third-best outfielder on the Phillies, you do it.

2011 is a wash for this team anyway. They're gearing up for 2012 when Strasburg comes back.

[Barnaby Jones]

I hate the Werth deal. He's not worth twice what Adam Dunn is making, especially since he's been pretty much playing on an All-Star team the last few years.

But hey, any time you can pull the trigger on a 7 year/126 million dollar deal for the third-best outfielder on the Phillies, you do it.

2011 is a wash for this team anyway. They're gearing up for 2012 when Strasburg comes back.

What is the projection as to when Harper will join the big league team???

[Earlshog]

I hate the Werth deal. He's not worth twice what Adam Dunn is making, especially since he's been pretty much playing on an All-Star team the last few years.

But hey, any time you can pull the trigger on a 7 year/126 million dollar deal for the third-best outfielder on the Phillies, you do it.

2011 is a wash for this team anyway. They're gearing up for 2012 when Strasburg comes back.


Third best outfielder on the Phillies? :ohmy:

[Snacks]

I hate the Werth deal. He's not worth twice what Adam Dunn is making, especially since he's been pretty much playing on an All-Star team the last few years.

But hey, any time you can pull the trigger on a 7 year/126 million dollar deal for the third-best outfielder on the Phillies, you do it.

2011 is a wash for this team anyway. They're gearing up for 2012 when Strasburg comes back.

I agree this is a terrible deal. It seems the entire sports world has agreed. From the media, to most fans, to executives etc. You didnt hear 1 exc say anything about any other players signing but went nuts about this. There is a reason for that. This is similar to Ichiro who also got 18 million a year but for 5 years not 7. Ichiro is also a much better player then werth and has done it longer and people though 18 million for ichiro was too much. No one not one person can say this is a good signing because there are so many negative to this deal.

[Earlshog]

I agree this is a terrible deal. It seems the entire sports world has agreed. From the media, to most fans, to executives etc. You didnt hear 1 exc say anything about any other players signing but went nuts about this. There is a reason for that. This is similar to Ichiro who also got 18 million a year but for 5 years not 7. Ichiro is also a much better player then werth and has done it longer and people though 18 million for ichiro was too much. No one not one person can say this is a good signing because there are so many negative to this deal.

All those same people said the same thing when the Tigers signed I-Rod They were coming off a season where they won 43 games. Three years later they were playing in the world series.

[El Mudo]

What is the projection as to when Harper will join the big league team???

I'm guessing 2012 when Strasburg is ready to pitch again.

Third best outfielder on the Phillies? :ohmy:

I wouldn't take him over Victorino or Ibanez, even though he's a billion years old.

I agree this is a terrible deal. It seems the entire sports world has agreed. From the media, to most fans, to executives etc. You didnt hear 1 exc say anything about any other players signing but went nuts about this. There is a reason for that. This is similar to Ichiro who also got 18 million a year but for 5 years not 7. Ichiro is also a much better player then werth and has done it longer and people though 18 million for ichiro was too much. No one not one person can say this is a good signing because there are so many negative to this deal.

The reactions I read were hysterical (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/To-Jayson-Werth-Scott-Boras-and-the-Nationals-?urn=mlb-292237)

# Talking to MLB.com's Anthony DiComo, Mets GM Sandy Alderson remarked, "It makes some of our contracts look pretty good. I thought they were trying to reduce the deficit in Washington."
# One GM, upon hearing the length of Werth's contract, told Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports it was "absolutely bat---- crazy." CBS Sports' Danny Knobler says one American League GM "nearly fell over when I told him the terms."

[foodcourtdruide]

I wouldn't take him over Victorino or Ibanez, even though he's a billion years old.


Victorino last 4 seasons OPS+: 95, 106, 110, 102
Werth last 4 seasons OPS+: 120, 121, 129, 145

It is not even close. Werth is more valuable to the Phillies than Victorino, and because of Ibanez's age, I'd much rather have Werth. I'm sorry, the Phillies lost their best outfielder.

[Earlshog]

I wouldn't take him over Victorino or Ibanez, even though he's a billion years old.[/URL]

with all due respect that is crazy talk. :wink:

[foodcourtdruide]

with all due respect that is crazy talk. :wink:

Don't get me wrong, the Nationals totally overpaid and the Phillies did the right thing by not signing him to a contract like that. However, he is clearly their best outfielder.

[Earlshog]

Don't get me wrong, the Nationals totally overpaid and the Phillies did the right thing by not signing him to a contract like that. However, he is clearly their best outfielder.

I agree on all counts, however I am in the minority who thinks it was a good move by the Nats. The Phillies situation and the Nats situation are apples and oranges (if I may) Time will tell.

[El Mudo]

Victorino last 4 seasons OPS+: 95, 106, 110, 102
Werth last 4 seasons OPS+: 120, 121, 129, 145

It is not even close. Werth is more valuable to the Phillies than Victorino, and because of Ibanez's age, I'd much rather have Werth. I'm sorry, the Phillies lost their best outfielder.


Victorino hits at the top of that lineup, no? He's not going to have the power numbers Werth had.

I'm not saying Werth isn't a bad player, he's just not worth 18 million dollars a season.

Look at this series of tweets from Buster Olney

# Nationals have single-handedly ended all discussion of possible collusion.

# @GusRamsey Funny -- a lot of baseball executives have had the same sensation as you. Must be going around.

# Last contract that generated this kind of vitriol was Kevin brown deal

# The Werth contract has had an impact of an 8.0 earthquake. Rival gms, execs are going nuts about the terms.

[cougarjake13]

werth deal is just mind boggling


with that money they could have had 2-3 very good players that woulda made them better than just signing werth




as a mets fan i gues its good cause it weakens the phillies and doesnt improve the nats all that much


phils still take the division with atl fighting for wild card

[spoon]

And Tampa Bay in the past few seasons has shown that the AL East does not have to be the personal playground of the Yankees and Red Sox. They are both beatable, after all.

When you stockpile years and years of top 5 first round picks due to being awful forever. Yes, they sure can for a 2 year time-line. It's all over in TB.

[spoon]

Werth's contract is much better than Jeter's at this point. The yanks are paying for one fucking hit (3,000) and his past.

[spoon]

But hey, any time you can pull the trigger on a 7 year/126 million dollar deal for the third-best outfielder on the Phillies, you do it.



That's just insane. "Werth" 18 million a year? Not so much. However, it surely doesn't make your comment any less crazy.

[El Mudo]

That's just insane. "Werth" 18 million a year? Not so much. However, it surely doesn't make your comment any less crazy.

I was being facetious, sir.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

Let him sign w/ Texas I dont want damaged goods


http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/12/07/mark-prior-to-sign-with-yankees-or-rangers/

[epo]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

Let him sign w/ Texas I dont want damaged goods


http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/12/07/mark-prior-to-sign-with-yankees-or-rangers/

Its not like you'd have to pay anything. Sign him and send him to the minors with your best pitching instructor to see if you can fix him.

[TheGameHHH]

Apparently the Yankees made Lee an offer of 6 years and $140 million

[Snacks]

Apparently the Yankees made Lee an offer of 6 years and $140 million

isnt that more per year avd then CC? Im saying it now, who ever signs Lee will regret it by year 3 or 4.

[TheGameHHH]

isnt that more per year avd then CC? Im saying it now, who ever signs Lee will regret it by year 3 or 4.

it depends what the final number actually is. if its 140 then yes, its roughly 333,000 more per year. if it's under 140 then it might not be.

[Snacks]

Red Sox reach agreement with Carl Crawford 142 million over 7 years.

[Snoogans]

but you cant get an ext done with gonzalez? what the fuck man?

[Snacks]

but you cant get an ext done with gonzalez? what the fuck man?

I think they wanted t osee how much they were going to pay Crawford and see how Gonzo does after coming back from his surgery. Its a risk worth taking. If he does poorly they can decide not to sign him or get him a little cheaper. If he goes nuts they might have to give him what he wants. I guess they were willing to take that risk and I would do it too.

The red sox are getting better and younger. The yanks are getting older and overpaying their aging stars. Be happy Snoogs!

[Snoogans]

I think they wanted t osee how much they were going to pay Crawford and see how Gonzo does after coming back from his surgery. Its a risk worth taking. If he does poorly they can decide not to sign him or get him a little cheaper. If he goes nuts they might have to give him what he wants. I guess they were willing to take that risk and I would do it too.

The red sox are getting better and younger. The yanks are getting older and overpaying their aging stars. Be happy Snoogs!

actually they just said they have an agreement in place basically with adrian, also for 7 years a 142 but they are gonna wait to sign til after opening day for the tax purposes

then apparently we are gonna sign russel martin for catching depth and then get a lefty reliever

[razorboy]

I'll always love Carl and I'm sort of okay with him going to the Sox because at least the Rays will get a first as opposed to him signing with the Angels, but this is sort of a weird signing for the Sox. The way Fenway plays will take away from some of his greatest strengths. He's never been very good at going back on fly balls or playing off even short walls . He makes his living playing ridiculously deep and coming up on fly balls better than any outfielder in the league.

[Snacks]

actually they just said they have an agreement in place basically with adrian, also for 7 years a 142 but they are gonna wait to sign til after opening day for the tax purposes

then apparently we are gonna sign russel martin for catching depth and then get a lefty reliever

how much are they giving martin? He wont be for depth he will be your starter! 7 years for 142 for gonzo might be the steal of the off season. hes 28 years old and just starting his prime years. He is also going from a pitchers park to a hitters one.

[epo]

I don't really understand why Russell Martin would be a big deal. He is a huge injury risk and seems to be rapidly declining in production.

[Snoogans]

I'll always love Carl and I'm sort of okay with him going to the Sox because at least the Rays will get a first as opposed to him signing with the Angels, but this is sort of a weird signing for the Sox. The way Fenway plays will take away from some of his greatest strengths. He's never been very good at going back on fly balls or playing off even short walls . He makes his living playing ridiculously deep and coming up on fly balls better than any outfielder in the league.

maybe they will learn from mistakes and put him in the MONSTROUS right field

[Snoogans]

how much are they giving martin? He wont be for depth he will be your starter! 7 years for 142 for gonzo might be the steal of the off season. hes 28 years old and just starting his prime years. He is also going from a pitchers park to a hitters one.

I don't really understand why Russell Martin would be a big deal. He is a huge injury risk and seems to be rapidly declining in production.

which is why he would mostly be for depth. right now im not sure what they are doin at Catcher, they have Cash I think still, plus Saltilimaccia who could be ok if they teach him to throw. Add russel martin and i guess its just gonna be by commitee. They were also taking about maybe benji molina

[epo]

maybe they will learn from mistakes and put him in the MONSTROUS right field

Right field is for JD Drew and left is for Ellsbury.

Didn't you learn this?

[Snoogans]

how much are they giving martin? He wont be for depth he will be your starter! 7 years for 142 for gonzo might be the steal of the off season. hes 28 years old and just starting his prime years. He is also going from a pitchers park to a hitters one.

i hate having to go over this all the time but here we go again. 20%, at most, of fenway is a hitters park.

The monster is 310 and the wlal is 37 feet and pesky poll is like 297, fine. But once you go about 30 feet in from the line in RF its fuckin 380, RC is 390 with the 420 foot triangle, CF is like 405 with a 20 foot wall, and LC is 370-380 with a 37 ft wall. Unless you are hittin everything down the lines or pepering the shorter half of the monster its a pitchers park. The stats end up making it play to the middle between a hitters and pitchers park

[Snoogans]

Right field is for JD Drew and left is for Ellsbury.

Didn't you learn this?

well if we are gonna injure elsbury, at least this time its for carl crawford and not mike cameron, and it will be a real man like youklis hurting elsbury. Not some fruit who flips out when people touch his head

[epo]

well if we are gonna injure elsbury, at least this time its for carl crawford and not mike cameron, and it will be a real man like youklis hurting elsbury. Not some fruit who flips out when people touch his head

So its Crawford in left, Drew in center and Ellsbury in right for Francona?

[Snacks]

What is the Sox starting line up and rotation going to be this year?

[Snoogans]

So its Crawford in left, Drew in center and Ellsbury in right for Francona?
what a jerkoff

What is the Sox starting line up and rotation going to be this year?

this is off the top of my head so if i fuck one up sorry
Crawford OF
Pedroia 2b
AGone 1b
Youk 3b
Papi DH
Drew OF
Scuturo SS
whatever C
and elsbury OF

those last 3 might flip around,
rotation:
Lester
Buckholtz
Beckett
Lackey
Dice L

Then whoever replaces dice L when he gets hurt

[Snacks]

what a jerkoff



this is off the top of my head so if i fuck one up sorry
Crawford OF
Pedroia 2b
AGone 1b
Youk 3b
Papi DH
Drew OF
Scuturo SS
whatever C
and elsbury OF

those last 3 might flip around,
rotation:
Lester
Buckholtz
Beckett
Lackey
Dice L

Then whoever replaces dice L when he gets hurt

this team will be running all over the place. I would put gonzo 4th and youk 3rd but no biggie since papi would be batting 5th. Will they even put papi 5th? He was his best when he hit 3rd in front of manny. Maybe they put gonzo 4th and youk 5th. This line up is such a great line up because you can do so much with it. just enough power with tons of speed

Probably the best rotation in the league. Dice k 5th wow. Lackey 4th. If boston doesnt win at least the east this year something is wrong!

[Snoogans]

this team will be running all over the place. I would put gonzo 4th and youk 3rd but no biggie since papi would be batting 5th. Will they even put papi 5th? He was his best when he hit 3rd in front of manny. Maybe they put gonzo 4th and youk 5th. This line up is such a great line up because you can do so much with it. just enough power with tons of speed

Probably the best rotation in the league. Dice k 5th wow. Lackey 4th. If boston doesnt win at least the east this year something is wrong!

Lackey was terrible last year, dice k too. Beckett too when he was even pitching. if they all pitch like youd expect they do, things will be fine. Either way, even if they pitch like last year this team will still make the playoffs, then anything can happen.

But now they have the team, so now they better win it, or they are Marino Level Failures

[razorboy]

what a jerkoff



this is off the top of my head so if i fuck one up sorry
Crawford OF
Pedroia 2b
AGone 1b
Youk 3b
Papi DH
Drew OF
Scuturo SS
whatever C
and elsbury OF

those last 3 might flip around,
rotation:
Lester
Buckholtz
Beckett
Lackey
Dice L

Then whoever replaces dice L when he gets hurt

Carl doesn't leadoff. Francona might try him there for a while, but he isn't likely to be pleased with the results.

[Snoogans]

Carl doesn't leadoff. Francona might try him there for a while, but he isn't likely to be pleased with the results.

i know, he hit 3rd i think in tampa. I was gonna lead off elsbury and hit crawford 3rd but the middle gets so stacked, and elsbury is finished now. I might even hit Pedroia or even scuturo first.

Francona is a fuckin idiot though, so im sure all that shit will be all fucked up

[JimBeam]

They were just saying on ESPN that the Yankees offered Lee another year ( not sure if it was a 6th or a 7th ).

[Snoogans]

They were just saying on ESPN that the Yankees offered Lee another year ( not sure if it was a 6th or a 7th ).

from what i just heard, they offered either 6 for like 135 or 7 for 145. They gave him both, 6 with more per or 7 with less per but a bit more total

[spoon]

Nobody interested in the Jays looking into some 32 year old Newark Bear or Tom Candiotti's comeback with his awesome old man knuckle ball? Yah, the Jays have a great shot this year versus NYY and Boston. Fuck MLB.

[cougarjake13]

which is why he would mostly be for depth. right now im not sure what they are doin at Catcher, they have Cash I think still, plus Saltilimaccia who could be ok if they teach him to throw. Add russel martin and i guess its just gonna be by commitee. They were also taking about maybe benji molina

they re signed varitek to be the backup with i think salty as starter

[epo]

Nobody interested in the Jays looking into some 32 year old Newark Bear or Tom Candiotti's comeback with his awesome old man knuckle ball? Yah, the Jays have a great shot this year versus NYY and Boston. Fuck MLB.

I'm interesting in the Jays trading the Brewers Shawn Marcum for a hitting prospect who thinks he's a member of the Jersey Shore just because he's a Canadian native.

[spoon]

I'm interesting in the Jays trading the Brewers Shawn Marcum for a hitting prospect who thinks he's a member of the Jersey Shore just because he's a Canadian native.

Toronto could have got him for much much less at the Brewers were simply fed up with him to say the least. However, he is still only 20 and is projected to be a very good hitter and he continues to add power as he gets "older". Alex has wanted him and Gose for a LONG time according to the beat writers in Toronto and Alex himself. I think it's clear he wants a faster/leaner team in the end, but I don't think it was needed to move a cheap nice arm, and only one who has been around a while, in Marcum. The guy has great stuff overall, not overpowering, but can locate with every one of his pitches. He's a gamer to say the least.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Baltimore Birther


http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Answer-Man-Luke-Scott-talks-Nugent-hunting-and?urn=mlb-292970

[Snacks]

Baltimore Birther


http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Answer-Man-Luke-Scott-talks-Nugent-hunting-and?urn=mlb-292970

wow hes stupid.

[Earlshog]

Baltimore Birther


http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Answer-Man-Luke-Scott-talks-Nugent-hunting-and?urn=mlb-292970

Born: June 25, 1978 in De Leon Springs, FL


Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[spoon]

I'm interesting in the Jays trading the Brewers Shawn Marcum for a hitting prospect who thinks he's a member of the Jersey Shore just because he's a Canadian native.

http://www.millerparkdrunk.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Brett-Lawrie-1.jpg

:wallbash:

[epo]

http://www.millerparkdrunk.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Brett-Lawrie-1.jpg

:wallbash:

Apparently that wasn't a media source providing that photo, rather it was from Brett Lawrie's own Facebook page.

[goreds2]

Nationals targeting Lee for first base

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20101212&content_id=16309466&notebook_id=16309468&vkey=notebook_was&c_id=mlb

[cougarjake13]

Apparently that wasn't a media source providing that photo, rather it was from Brett Lawrie's own Facebook page.

why is he duct taped to his beer ??

[cougarjake13]

Nationals targeting Lee for first base

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20101212&content_id=16309466&notebook_id=16309468&vkey=notebook_was&c_id=mlb

wow


theyre on a spending frenzy


hope it works out for them

[epo]

why is he duct taped to his beer ??

I believe its a college thing called "Edward Fortyhands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Fortyhands)".

Edward Fortyhands (also known as 80 Ounces to Freedom, The 40 Challenge, Edward Winehands, Edward Ciderhands, Amy Winehands or Mario Winehands) is a drinking game in which each player duct tapes a 40-ounce or 1.18 liter bottle of alcohol (usually malt liquor) to each of their hands and may not remove them until they're consumed.

Errr....no comment.

[TripleSkeet]

Cliff Lee is a Phillie again. :clap::clap::clap::clap:

Goodbye Joe Blanton. Holy fuck what a sick rotation.

Maybe if the Yankees fans were a little classier to his wife....hahahahahahaha.

[Justice4all]

Cliff Lee is a Phillie again. :clap::clap::clap::clap:

Goodbye Joe Blanton. Holy fuck what a sick rotation.

Maybe if the Yankees fans were a little classier to his wife....hahahahahahaha.

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't your 'sick' rotation not show up in the playoffs? (like the Yanks)
It doesn't matter if your staff gets you into the post-season if they don't show up for those games.

That being said...on paper...as of right now, I would say the Phillies would be the odds-on favorite to win the World Series with that rotation.

[epo]

Good for Cliff Lee.

Never spit on a man's wife.

[Snacks]

Cliff Lee is a Phillie again. :clap::clap::clap::clap:

Goodbye Joe Blanton. Holy fuck what a sick rotation.

Maybe if the Yankees fans were a little classier to his wife....hahahahahahaha.

they just said the rotation will be


doc hal
lee
oswalt
hamels
blanton

so your not done with him yet. but who cares hes a nice 5th starter. can anyone say philly vs boston ws in 2011?



I thought he hated philly for trading him to sea? the fact that he went to philly after all that and a fan base that is talked about as being the worst and a north east team and not going to the yanks is a huge slap to the yanks. add to that the yanks offered 6 years with the players option for a 7th and what has to be more money then philly.

[NickyL0885]

they just said the rotation will be


doc hal
lee
oswalt
hamels
blanton

so your not done with him yet. but who cares hes a nice 5th starter. can anyone say philly vs boston ws in 2011?



I thought he hated philly for trading him to sea? the fact that he went to philly after all that and a fan base that is talked about as being the worst and a north east team and not going to the yanks is a huge slap to the yanks. add to that the yanks offered 6 years with the players option for a 7th and what has to be more money then philly.

He left like $50 Million on the table, apparently. Players association is probably pissed. But what was said above is true. It's one thing to get to the play-offs. You need to perform there as well. But, as of now, it seems like Boston vs Philly in the WS.

How must the mighty Yankees feel? I mean, how could ANYONE reject playing for them?! But as a Mets fan, I lose either way. All I get to look forward to is Ollie Perez. Yay!...........:wallbash:

[Snacks]

He left like $50 Million on the table, apparently. Players association is probably pissed. But what was said above is true. It's one thing to get to the play-offs. You need to perform there as well. But, as of now, it seems like Boston vs Philly in the WS.

How must the mighty Yankees feel? I mean, how could ANYONE reject playing for them?! But as a Mets fan, I lose either way. All I get to look forward to is Ollie Perez. Yay!...........:wallbash:

I might have to buy a fat nose jersey (howard) or Halladay Jersey. I have no allegiance to any MLB team I actually like players so Im looking forward to Bos playing philly in the ws.

I feel bad for TB. I hope they are able to sign some of the older vets that they can get cheap for a year or 2 just to compete.

[TripleSkeet]

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't your 'sick' rotation not show up in the playoffs? (like the Yanks)
It doesn't matter if your staff gets you into the post-season if they don't show up for those games.

That being said...on paper...as of right now, I would say the Phillies would be the odds-on favorite to win the World Series with that rotation.

No, the rotation was fine, it was the bats that didnt show up. And if they dont show up again, the same thing will happen. Doesnt change the fact that I love them bringing this guy in. I never in the world expected it.

they just said the rotation will be


doc hal
lee
oswalt
hamels
blanton

so your not done with him yet. but who cares hes a nice 5th starter. can anyone say philly vs boston ws in 2011?



I thought he hated philly for trading him to sea? the fact that he went to philly after all that and a fan base that is talked about as being the worst and a north east team and not going to the yanks is a huge slap to the yanks. add to that the yanks offered 6 years with the players option for a 7th and what has to be more money then philly.

Yea but once everything is done I think youll see Blanton get traded to make room on the payroll and Kendrick probably become the 5th starter.

[Tenbatsuzen]

How must the mighty Yankees feel? I mean, how could ANYONE reject playing for them?!

Easy. He wanted to play in Philly. He saw what Doc did in Philly and realized he could destroy the NL.

[NickyL0885]

A Boston-Philly WS would be great. Great line ups and amazing pitching match ups.

Halladay vs Lester
Lee vs Beckett
Oswalt vs Buchholz
Hamels vs Lackey

[Snacks]

A Boston-Philly WS would be great. Great line ups and amazing pitching match ups.

Halladay vs Lester
Lee vs Beckett
Oswalt vs Buchholz
Hamels vs Lackey

what about the batters line ups those will be sick too.

[TripleSkeet]

Easy. He wanted to play in Philly. He saw what Doc did in Philly and realized he could destroy the NL.

He shouldve realize that when he destroyed the NL in 09.

[NickyL0885]

But we all know, it's all about who is hot at the time. The Giants winning? What were the odds? Even with their rotation.

[spoon]

Good for Cliff Lee.

Never spit on a man's wife.

Agreed. Yet I didn't see this reported yet. However, I haven't even caught up in this thread yet!

If so, awesome!

[spoon]

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't your 'sick' rotation not show up in the playoffs? (like the Yanks)
It doesn't matter if your staff gets you into the post-season if they don't show up for those games.

That being said...on paper...as of right now, I would say the Phillies would be the odds-on favorite to win the World Series with that rotation.

They showed up, just SF's rotation were even better and rode them to the WS title. Come on man.

[Tenbatsuzen]

He shouldve realize that when he destroyed the NL in 09.

At this point, isn't Ruben Amaro a wife-beater? He basically sent Lee packing, when Lee wanted to play for the Phillies, and then took him back for 50 million less.

fucking PIMP.

[TripleSkeet]

In Philly December 14th is now known as the Immaculate Rotation...

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/3116/immaculate.png (http://img258.imageshack.us/i/immaculate.png/)

[Snoogans]

greg maddux, tom glavine, john smoltz and steve avery would like to have a word with you

[TripleSkeet]

greg maddux, tom glavine, john smoltz and steve avery would like to have a word with you

I said IN PHILLY.

[spoon]

In Philly December 14th is now known as the Immaculate Rotation...

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/3116/immaculate.png (http://img258.imageshack.us/i/immaculate.png/)

For fuck's sake let's not gay this up tenbats style! Come on man. AWFUL.

[TripleSkeet]

For fuck's sake let's not gay this up tenbats style! Come on man. AWFUL.

I didnt make it, I saw it on FB and it made me laugh. Ruben Amaro as the Virgin Mary is going to give me nightmares.

[spoon]

He didn't come up with "ground and pound", "sanchize" or "revis island" either but he sure did drive them into the ground with sigs and their constant use.

[razorboy]

He didn't come up with "ground and pound", "sanchize" or "revis island" either but he sure did drive them into the ground with sigs and their constant use.

I'm surprised "pick and kick" hasn't caught on yet.

[Crippler]

In Philly December 14th is now known as the Immaculate Rotation...
greg maddux, tom glavine, john smoltz and steve avery would like to have a word with you

Before long Phillies fans will be proven to suffer from Rotational Hubris.

[Justice4all]

In Philly December 14th is now known as the Immaculate Rotation...

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/3116/immaculate.png (http://img258.imageshack.us/i/immaculate.png/)

If you look real close you can see Skeets spooge from jacking off to this pic 10 times.:laugh:

[Earlshog]

No, the rotation was fine, it was the bats that didnt show up. And if they dont show up again, the same thing will happen. Doesnt change the fact that I love them bringing this guy in. I never in the world expected it.



Yea but once everything is done I think youll see Blanton get traded to make room on the payroll and Kendrick probably become the 5th starter.

I agree, Blanton is gone... I know the Yanks have a couple gaps in the rotation maybe they are interested. :devil2:

[Earlshog]

Easy. He wanted to play in Philly. He saw what Doc did in Philly and realized he could destroy the NL.

:ohmy:

[TripleSkeet]

I agree, Blanton is gone... I know the Yanks have a couple gaps in the rotation maybe they are interested. :devil2:

How great would that be? :thumbup:

[JimBeam]

Easy. He wanted to play in Philly. He saw what Doc did in Philly and realized he could destroy the NL.

He laso might not have wanted to pitch to an almost 40 year old catcher ( even if it was just part of the time ) and be backed up by an old left side of the diamond.

I doubt any of tat factored in the final straw but it might've had some bearing on the decision.

[cougarjake13]

He shouldve realize that when he destroyed the NL in 09.

im sure he did but he didnt have control of being traded to seattle or texas

[WRESTLINGFAN]

R.I.P. Bob Feller

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/2010/12/15/2010-12-15_bob_feller_halloffame_mlb_pitcher_and_world_war _ii_hero_dies_at_92.html

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Good for Cliff Lee.

Never spit on a man's wife.

Lee said at his press conference that the incident was exaggerated and that didn't happen

[A.J.]

Lee said at his press conference that the incident was exaggerated and that didn't happen

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/hs448.snc4/50354_2200755293_2142_n.jpg

[cougarjake13]

R.I.P. Bob Feller

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/2010/12/15/2010-12-15_bob_feller_halloffame_mlb_pitcher_and_world_war _ii_hero_dies_at_92.html



rip buddy


i still cant believe how many of these great ball players left to fight in the war

that would never happen today, esp with the huge contracts

[TheGameHHH]

rip buddy


i still cant believe how many of these great ball players left to fight in the war

that would never happen today, esp with the huge contracts

and that's what makes them part of the "greatest generation", there's a reason that's said.

[razorboy]

Brewers Grab Greinke? (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/112145779.html)

Maybe? (http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/12/19/figuring-out-the-zack-grienke-to-milwaukee-rumor/)

[sailor]

and that's what makes them part of the "greatest generation", there's a reason that's said.

alliteration?

[epo]

Brewers Grab Greinke? (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/112145779.html)

Maybe? (http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/12/19/figuring-out-the-zack-grienke-to-milwaukee-rumor/)

It appears to be real. WooHoo!

[foodcourtdruide]

Good deal for The Brewers. Gave up less than I saw KC asking from other teams.

[KnoxHarrington]

Good deal for The Brewers. Gave up less than I saw KC asking from other teams.

Yeah, with this pickup the Brewers have a real shot at a .500 season.

[epo]

Yeah, with this pickup the Brewers have a real shot at a .500 season.

Jealous bastard.

[KnoxHarrington]

Jealous bastard.

Yeah, me being a fan of the DEFENDING NL CENTRAL CHAMPION Cincinnati Reds.

Though with Dusty Baker at the helm, it's probably back to the basement next year.

[epo]

Yeah, me being a fan of the DEFENDING NL CENTRAL CHAMPION Cincinnati Reds.

Though with Dusty Baker at the helm, it's probably back to the basement next year.

Enjoy Dusty Baker, I'll enjoy the playoffs.

[sailor]

Enjoy Dusty Baker, I'll enjoy the playoffs.

Which pitcher do you think he'll ruin this year?

[epo]

Which pitcher do you think he'll ruin this year?

Chapman?

[sailor]

Chapman?

Probably the smart bet. He's young enough. Hopefully they have some phenom to bring up for dusty to murder.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

rip buddy


i still cant believe how many of these great ball players left to fight in the war

that would never happen today, esp with the huge contracts

Feller was the 1st MLB player to enlist for WW2 he did on 12/8.

[goreds2]

I did not know Anthony is a Reds fan. :clap:

http://cmsimg.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?NewTbl=1&Avis=AB&Dato=20100716&Kategori=SPT05&Lopenr=7160805&Ref=PH&Item=1&MaxH=475&MaxW=485&Border=0

[Snoogans]

who the fuck is Carlos Gonzalez? I never heard that name until today, seriously, when I found out he is gettin 7 years 80 mill. Then I see he won the batting title and a gold glove last year. Ive seriously NEVER heard of this guy. And I watch baseball and I own MLB the Show. What the fuck?

[epo]

who the fuck is Carlos Gonzalez? I never heard that name until today, seriously, when I found out he is gettin 7 years 80 mill. Then I see he won the batting title and a gold glove last year. Ive seriously NEVER heard of this guy. And I watch baseball and I own MLB the Show. What the fuck?

Wasn't he the cornerstone of the Matt Holiday trade a couple of years ago for the Rockies?

[spoon]

Why would you?

This is MLB after all. You have to be on NYY, Boston, Chicago, St. Louis and recently Philly to get any news out there. Seriously, a guy like this in any other sport and he's well known.

[spoon]

Wasn't he the cornerstone of the Matt Holiday trade a couple of years ago for the Rockies?

The Dan Haren move too.

[Snoogans]

Why would you?

This is MLB after all. You have to be on NYY, Boston, Chicago, St. Louis and recently Philly to get any news out there. Seriously, a guy like this in any other sport and he's well known.

thats whats weird. I openly mock ESPN and MLB for how much they only focus on big market teams, but up until today, I still considered myself a baseball fan. I dont know if I can still say they when I didnt even know a guy who was a fuckin GG and a batting champ.

I know who won the fuckin golden boot award in teh EPL, La Liga, and the fuckin MLS and I never heard of a fuckin batting champ.

I was putting it all on me but you raised a good point. Maybe if the rockies were on ESPN once in awhile, I woulda fuckin known the guys name. But then I probably woulda bitched about how boring a rockies vs whoever game was and not watched it anyway

[spoon]

thats whats weird. I openly mock ESPN and MLB for how much they only focus on big market teams, but up until today, I still considered myself a baseball fan. I dont know if I can still say they when I didnt even know a guy who was a fuckin GG and a batting champ.

I know who won the fuckin golden boot award in teh EPL, La Liga, and the fuckin MLS and I never heard of a fuckin batting champ.

I was putting it all on me but you raised a good point. Maybe if the rockies were on ESPN once in awhile, I woulda fuckin known the guys name. But then I probably woulda bitched about how boring a rockies vs whoever game was and not watched it anyway

Well, I'd counter with THAT too being MLB fault in many ways as well. It used to be you identified every team with great players. Now not so much. The haves and the have nots (lose them quickly). Long gone are the days of Brett in KC and Yount in Milwaukee.

[Snoogans]

Well, I'd counter with THAT too being MLB fault in many ways as well. It used to be you identified every team with great players. Now not so much. The haves and the have nots (lose them quickly). Long gone are the days of Brett in KC and Yount in Milwaukee.

yea cause no one can keep the guys from leaving for the big market money. Thats true too. Id say alot of it is my interest going down, but that may very well be why it went down. Even this year, the fuckin Sox are stacked, and im barely excited. When i heard i was excited for maybe half hour, then i didnt even care

[Barnaby Jones]

ESPN is dog shit, but CarGo got a ton of coverage on ESPN this past season, especially on BT!!! They were basically slobbering all over him every time he had a good game in the second half!!!!

[Snoogans]

ESPN is dog shit, but CarGo got a ton of coverage on ESPN this past season, especially on BT!!! They were basically slobbering all over him every time he had a good game in the second half!!!!

people watch baseball tonight? that show is fuckin TERRIBLE.

[epo]

people watch baseball tonight? that show is fuckin TERRIBLE.

Think of Carlos Gonzalez as a talented Ron Santo with speed, a good bat and both legs.

[Snoogans]

Think of Carlos Gonzalez as a talented Ron Santo with speed, a good bat and both legs.

with Santo gone, the greatest living cub in history, Mark Prior, is a Yankee now

[Barnaby Jones]

people watch baseball tonight? that show is fuckin TERRIBLE.

I'm a cheapskate so I don't shell out for the MLB Network!!!

[Snoogans]

I'm a cheapskate so I don't shell out for the MLB Network!!!

MLB network is on our premium package here so we get it and i have never watched it for more than 30 seconds total

[epo]

with Santo gone, the greatest living cub in history, Mark Prior, is a Yankee now

He definitely deserves the Hall of Fame more than that bum Ryne Sandberg.

[NickyL0885]

MLB network is on our premium package here so we get it and i have never watched it for more than 30 seconds total

Really? How come? I love the network. Much better then ESPNs baseball coverage. I'm tired of John Kruk and his Philly homerism. I like that MLB Network does the 30 in 30 during spring training, Hot Stove in the off season and MLB Tonight is superior to Baseball Tonight. I love the live game look ins. Not to mention, the Diamond Demos are cool and interesting.

[Snoogans]

Really? How come? I love the network. Much better then ESPNs baseball coverage. I'm tired of John Kruk and his Philly homerism. I like that MLB Network does the 30 in 30 during spring training, Hot Stove in the off season and MLB Tonight is superior to Baseball Tonight. I love the live game look ins. Not to mention, the Diamond Demos are cool and interesting.

ummm, cause i dont care about baseball anymore

[epo]

ummm, cause i dont care about baseball anymore

You haven't been the same since Harry Caray died.

[Snoogans]

You haven't been the same since Harry Caray died.

if anything that made me care more. not having to listen to mojo's favorite announcer was like heaven til I heard his jerkoff sons do a game

[spoon]

Shaun is just all about new shit right now so most of his old sports are boring to him right now. With the exception of NBA bc it was his top sport it seemed and the Knicks weren't good for so long it's pretty new in it's own way. Hell I don't think they had a winning season since before Kevin welched on his fucking bet! ALBANIAN WELCH!

[Snoogans]

Shaun is just all about new shit right now so most of his old sports are boring to him right now. With the exception of NBA bc it was his top sport it seemed and the Knicks weren't good for so long it's pretty new in it's own way. Hell I don't think they had a winning season since before Kevin welched on his fucking bet! ALBANIAN WELCH!

this is actually a fair point

[A.J.]

with Santo gone, the greatest living cub in history, Mark Prior, is a Yankee now

No -- you mean Derrek Lee is an Oriole now.

[TheGameHHH]

Snoogans, do you not play fantasy baseball?

[spoon]

No -- you mean Derrek Lee is an Oriole now.

No, you mean Lou Piniella is now a Florida caretaker and hairstylist.

"My mom needs me home and that's where I'm going," Piniella said before one last game in the dugout.

http://deadspin.com/archives/pinellahair.jpg

http://mercifulcrap.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/lou.jpg

[goreds2]

I'm a cheapskate so I don't shell out for the MLB Network!!!

Some of the MLB Network evening programs are on XM175. (6pm-8pm)

http://www.xmradio.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=XM/Channel/ChannelProgramList&chid=1255037763304&c=Channel

[WRESTLINGFAN]

2011 HoF class will be

Bert Blyleven & Robbie Alomar.

Im surpised Bagwell didn't make the cut. I dont think he was involved in the steroids scandal.


Larkin missed it again. He will eventually get in

[underdog]

Im surpised Bagwell didn't make the cut. I dont think he was involved in the steroids scandal.

They've made him part of the scandal, even though his name hasn't been in any reports.

[spoon]

So you both think Bagwell was clean?

[underdog]

So you both think Bagwell was clean?

I don't care.

[goreds2]

2011 HoF class will be

Bert Blyleven & Robbie Alomar.

Im surpised Bagwell didn't make the cut. I dont think he was involved in the steroids scandal.


Larkin missed it again. He will eventually get in

Great news about Blyleven ! Should have been in years ago. I can't wait to hear his speech. He had some unique comments during the years he was snubbed.

Yes, Larkin will get in.

[foodcourtdruide]

It was stupid that Alomar didn't get in last year. He's a first ballot hall-of-famer. I think Blyleven was a fantastic pitcher, with a great career, but he wasn't an elite player for an extended period of time. I think guys like him getting in de-values the hall of fame.

How do you define a great pitching season? Do we all agree that Pedro Martinez and Greg Maddux are clear-cut hall of famers? Their statistics BLOW AWAY Blyleven. The hall of fame is supposed to be for baseball's elites, not baseball's greats.

[Snacks]

It was stupid that Alomar didn't get in last year. He's a first ballot hall-of-famer. I think Blyleven was a fantastic pitcher, with a great career, but he wasn't an elite player for an extended period of time. I think guys like him getting in de-values the hall of fame.

How do you define a great pitching season? Do we all agree that Pedro Martinez and Greg Maddux are clear-cut hall of famers? Their statistics BLOW AWAY Blyleven. The hall of fame is supposed to be for baseball's elites, not baseball's greats.

Alomar didnt get in for spitting on an ump. I actually agree he should have been 1st ballet but these nerdy sport writers use their power trip to fuck over players.

As for Blyleven he was a stud. He has the 6th most strike outs in history, he has a career 3.31 era and 287 wins. Yes hes barely over .500 but I think this years Cy young award proved what many people never wanted to admit that wins is a meaningless category. Its not controlled by the pitcher its controlled by the team and its batters. You can only judge a pitcher by what his era, Ks, walks etc. because thats all he can control. & times he finished in the top 5 in era for those seasons! Hes a HOF!

[foodcourtdruide]

Alomar didnt get in for spitting on an ump. I actually agree he should have been 1st ballet but these nerdy sport writers use their power trip to fuck over players.

As for Blyleven he was a stud. He has the 6th most strike outs in history, he has a career 3.31 era and 287 wins. Yes hes barely over .500 but I think this years Cy young award proved what many people never wanted to admit that wins is a meaningless category. Its not controlled by the pitcher its controlled by the team and its batters. You can only judge a pitcher by what his era, Ks, walks etc. because thats all he can control. & times he finished in the top 5 in era for those seasons! Hes a HOF!

The strikeouts just speak to his longevity, which I agree is impressive, but are any of us impressed with how many home runs Harold Baines hit? I agree that wins are completely meaningless, and have absolutely no factor into my opinion. I think the best judge of a pitcher is ERA+. Compare his ERA+ numbers in his prime to the ERA+ numbers of no doubter hall of famers in their prime. Blyleven just isn't that impressive. He was never a dominating pitcher of his generation, which I believe is required to be in the HOF.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

So you both think Bagwell was clean?

Honestly I dont know. He could have. Didnt he come up with Boston originally ? Im not sure if he played any games with them. If he went thru a McGwire Bonds Sosa conversion from a skinny guy to someone with a totalyl different physique then there could be questions.

It would not surprise me if players of the past took any PED's. Mantle played thru pain and was bandaged up all the time but it wouldnt surprise me if he was taking drugs or painkillers etc.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

The strikeouts just speak to his longevity, which I agree is impressive, but are any of us impressed with how many home runs Harold Baines hit? I agree that wins are completely meaningless, and have absolutely no factor into my opinion. I think the best judge of a pitcher is ERA+. Compare his ERA+ numbers in his prime to the ERA+ numbers of no doubter hall of famers in their prime. Blyleven just isn't that impressive. He was never a dominating pitcher of his generation, which I believe is required to be in the HOF.

Maybe they factored that he would have won more games if he was on better teams?

Jim Kaat and Tommy John won almost the same amt of games as Blyleven. Kaat won a ton of gold gloves but was not a dominant pitcher

[foodcourtdruide]

Maybe they factored that he would have won more games if he was on better teams?

Jim Kaat and Tommy John won almost the same amt of games as Blyleven. Kaat won a ton of gold gloves but was not a dominant pitcher

Wins should have no factor in HOF voting.

[Snacks]

Wins should have no factor in HOF voting.

He also has 60 shut outs. thats more then glavine and maddox together!

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Wins should have no factor in HOF voting.

It should but not the only factor. but it should count. An example is Mike Mussina. 270 wins. Never won a Cy Young but racked up these wins in the Steroid era and pitched his whole career in the AL east clearly the most competitive division. I think he will be in on his 1st chance.

[foodcourtdruide]

He also has 60 shut outs. thats more then glavine and maddox together!

I agree that's impressive, but overall his numbers don't match up to Maddux. Blyleven's best ERA+ was 158, Maddux had a better ERA+ than that 8 times. It's not even close.

EDIT: Meant ERA+ not OPS+

[foodcourtdruide]

It should but not the only factor. but it should count. An example is Mike Mussina. 270 wins. Never won a Cy Young but racked up these wins in the Steroid era and pitched his whole career in the AL east clearly the most competitive division. I think he will be in on his 1st chance.

Wins are a team stat, not an individual stat. It makes no sense to consider Mike Mussina to be better than another pitcher based on how something he has absoltuely no control of (his teams offense) performed.

[underdog]

It should but not the only factor. but it should count. An example is Mike Mussina. 270 wins. Never won a Cy Young but racked up these wins in the Steroid era and pitched his whole career in the AL east clearly the most competitive division. I think he will be in on his 1st chance.

Wins are the most useless statistic for judging pitchers. They shouldn't factor at all.

[Snacks]

It should but not the only factor. but it should count. An example is Mike Mussina. 270 wins. Never won a Cy Young but racked up these wins in the Steroid era and pitched his whole career in the AL east clearly the most competitive division. I think he will be in on his 1st chance.

He will never get in 1st ballot. There is no chance he will get in 1st Ballot. Hes barley borderline as it is so even if he gets in it might take 5-10 years!

[Snacks]

Wins are the most useless statistic for judging pitchers. They shouldn't factor at all.

I love this new revolt against wins. Its about time more and more people see it this way. I have been fighting this for years but never had anyone on my side. Now I see there are more and more people with brains that understand this!:clap:

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Wins are the most useless statistic for judging pitchers. They shouldn't factor at all.

The same can be said about position players. So if someone who gets 3000 hits and never won a batting title shouldn't get into the Hall?


You can make the same case about Jim Thome in regards to HR. He never won a MVP award is a career .275 hitter and struck out over 2400 times.

[foodcourtdruide]

The same can be said about position players. So if someone who gets 3000 hits and never won a batting title shouldn't get into the Hall?


You can make the same case about Jim Thome in regards to HR. He never won a MVP award is a career .275 hitter and struck out over 2400 times.

What on earth do batting titles and MVP awards have to do with wins?

[WRESTLINGFAN]

What on earth do batting titles and MVP awards have to do with wins?

Nothing at all but you can make the same case for offensive stats.


So should Niekro, Perry and Sutton not be in the hall then? Their records were not the greatest.

Ryan, take away the 7 no hitters and 5700K's and his record isnt the best either. Plus he pitched for 27 seasns.

[underdog]

The same can be said about position players. So if someone who gets 3000 hits and never won a batting title shouldn't get into the Hall?

Wins and hits are completely different. A player has complete control over his hitting ability. The pitcher is one of about a thousand factors in a win. A pitcher could pitch the game of his life over and over again and end the season with 6 wins. Meanwhile, a pitcher could give up 14 hits a game and 10 run, but end up with 24 wins because his team scores more runs than the other team. Wins are a meaningless stat when judging a pitcher.

[underdog]

Nothing at all but you can make the same case for offensive stats

Not really.

Judging a SS on team wins is almost exactly the same as judging a pitcher on team wins.

[underdog]

o should Niekro, Perry and Sutton not be in the hall then? Their records were not the greatest.

WON/LOSS RECORDS ARE MEANINGLESS IS THE POINT.

Ryan, take away the 7 no hitters and 5700K's and his record isnt the best either. Plus he pitched for 27 seasns.

Nolan Ryan is one of the most overrated pitchers to ever play pro-baseball.

[foodcourtdruide]

Not really.

Judging a SS on team wins is almost exactly the same as judging a pitcher on team wins.

Underdog answered your post perfectly. A hit has a value that comes from the ability of the hitter, whether or not the hitters team wins the game is beyond the power of the hitter, so why would you use wins to judge him?

[underdog]

I love this new revolt against wins. Its about time more and more people see it this way. I have been fighting this for years but never had anyone on my side. Now I see there are more and more people with brains that understand this!:clap:

It's sort of the "stat-geek revolution", I guess. It's hard to break 90 years of "known" logic, like RBI is the best way to judge a player.

[foodcourtdruide]

It's sort of the "stat-geek revolution", I guess. It's hard to break 90 years of "known" logic, like RBI is the best way to judge a player.

Sometimes when you listen to sports talk radio, blowhard-esque callers act like starting pitchers somehow will their team to victory. It's stupid.

[cougarjake13]

Underdog answered your post perfectly. A hit has a value that comes from the ability of the hitter, whether or not the hitters team wins the game is beyond the power of the hitter, so why would you use wins to judge him?

exactly


would you let a guy be a hall of famer if he stayed around long enough to compile 300 wins but had like a career 4 plus era, not a like of stikeouts with equal or more walks and was like 15-12 every year ?

[spoon]

I don't care.

Well many do, including me.

[spoon]

It should but not the only factor. but it should count. An example is Mike Mussina. 270 wins. Never won a Cy Young but racked up these wins in the Steroid era and pitched his whole career in the AL east clearly the most competitive division. I think he will be in on his 1st chance.

I agree on this except that he should be in on his first try. He pitched in the east sure, but once Boston became a force, he was already on the yanks so he only faced one elite team often. TB was never really good when he played, or right as he retired at best.

Wins should be a factor no doubt, but not without looking deeper as the Cy voters did this year with Felix.

[spoon]

Wins and hits are completely different. A player has complete control over his hitting ability. The pitcher is one of about a thousand factors in a win. A pitcher could pitch the game of his life over and over again and end the season with 6 wins. Meanwhile, a pitcher could give up 14 hits a game and 10 run, but end up with 24 wins because his team scores more runs than the other team. Wins are a meaningless stat when judging a pitcher.

Scenarios like this are much more possible in the top heavy, bottom light MLB of today I agree. However, you can't fully dismiss wins for a pitcher that easily. It has to be a part of the overall picture. Again, as voters did with Felix this year. If not, we'll not only see only everyone leaving the small markets for a chance to pitch in the postseason and a title, but also to have a MUCH better shot making the Hall. I think we've already seen this a little at this point anyway.

[spoon]

Not really.

Judging a SS on team wins is almost exactly the same as judging a pitcher on team wins.

Come on, you know that's just over the top.

[foodcourtdruide]

Come on, you know that's just over the top.

It is not. It's actually probably a more accurate way to judge a shortstop than a pitcher, as at least he has some impact on a pitcher's stats with his defense. It makes absolutely no sense to rate a pitcher based on Wins.

[foodcourtdruide]

Scenarios like this are much more possible in the top heavy, bottom light MLB of today I agree. However, you can't fully dismiss wins for a pitcher that easily. It has to be a part of the overall picture. Again, as voters did with Felix this year. If not, we'll not only see only everyone leaving the small markets for a chance to pitch in the postseason and a title, but also to have a MUCH better shot making the Hall. I think we've already seen this a little at this point anyway.

Yes, you can easily dismiss wins for a pitcher. They are a team stat.

[underdog]

Well many do, including me.

Get over it.

The whole generation was on it. It was an even playing field. View it for what it was and judge the players off of each other, and not off those lucky guys who never had to play against the best talent in the world so their stats were extremely inflated (looking at you, fat Babe Ruth).

[underdog]

Come on, you know that's just over the top.

I think a pitcher has a lot of effect on team losses, but he has much less effect on the win.

A pitcher can do everything in his power to stop the other team and still lose. He could have a 1.00 ERA and go 0-36 with 36 complete games. He has virtually no effect on the team winning.

[Barnaby Jones]

I think a pitcher has a lot of effect on team losses, but he has much less effect on the win.

A pitcher can do everything in his power to stop the other team and still lose. He could have a 1.00 ERA and go 0-36 with 36 complete games. He has virtually no effect on the team winning.

Especially those lazy bums in the American League!!!!

[TripleSkeet]

Yes, you can easily dismiss wins for a pitcher. They are a team stat.

So you are saying Steve Carltons wins in 1972 (27 out of the teams 59) is just an easily dismissable stat?

I mean, I agree that in a large part you cant judge pitchers just by their number of wins but there are exceptions where it can show just how dominating that pitcher can be.

[spoon]

Get over it.

The whole generation was on it. It was an even playing field. View it for what it was and judge the players off of each other, and not off those lucky guys who never had to play against the best talent in the world so their stats were extremely inflated (looking at you, fat Babe Ruth).

No, I won't and the whole generation wasn't on it. If they were, don't let a soul in. However, your statement isn't even close to true. Cheaters shouldn't have gotten in back in the past, and they shouldn't now. Just bc mistakes were made then, to a much lesser extent, doesn't mean we have to accept it now. I for one am glad the stance the voters seem to be taking thus far.

I love how some don't want guy in like Blyleven bc he isn't good enough for them, but look away on clear frauds.

[spoon]

So you are saying Steve Carltons wins in 1972 (27 out of the teams 59) is just an easily dismissable stat?

I mean, I agree that in a large part you cant judge pitchers just by their number of wins but there are exceptions where it can show just how dominating that pitcher can be.

Not to mention his example is even MORE fucking ridiculous...0-36 record with a 1.00 era. OK sure thing UD.

It's not the stat some make it out to be, especially like in the past. Yet it's still a part of the overall picture for any pitcher based on the year, his team and their overall performance. Case by case basis, it's that simple.

[spoon]

Especially those lazy bums in the American League!!!!

Says the Angels fan! :lol:

[underdog]

No, I won't and the whole generation wasn't on it. If they were, don't let a soul in. However, your statement isn't even close to true. Cheaters shouldn't have gotten in back in the past, and they shouldn't now. Just bc mistakes were made then, to a much lesser extent, doesn't mean we have to accept it now. I for one am glad the stance the voters seem to be taking thus far.

I love how some don't want guy in like Blyleven bc he isn't good enough for them, but look away on clear frauds.

So kick all the cheaters out of the Hall. And stop letting known greenie users in. Those were against the rules of baseball far before steroids were against the rules.

You have a bunch of voters not voting for players that there was never any proof against. It's fucking retarded. Just what baseball needs, more smugness from their writers.

[foodcourtdruide]

So you are saying Steve Carltons wins in 1972 (27 out of the teams 59) is just an easily dismissable stat?
.

It's an anomoly, it happened by luck of the draw. It's interesting, but there are much better statistics that can be used to measure Carlton's performance that season, which better reflect what CARLTON did, not his team.

EDIT: Furthermore, if his team was shut out in those games he won (which would have NOTHING to do with his pitching) would you say Carlton didn't have as good of a season? That makes absolutely no sense.

[foodcourtdruide]

Not to mention his example is even MORE fucking ridiculous...0-36 record with a 1.00 era. OK sure thing UD.

It's not the stat some make it out to be, especially like in the past. Yet it's still a part of the overall picture for any pitcher based on the year, his team and their overall performance. Case by case basis, it's that simple.

It is not that simple. It is a meaningless stat that may or may not, over time show how a pitcher has performed. Why not use way more accurate statistics that will certainly show how a pitcher has performed? I don't understand.

[foodcourtdruide]

It's an anomoly, it happened by luck of the draw. It's interesting, but there are much better statistics that can be used to measure Carlton's performance that season, which better reflect what CARLTON did, not his team.

EDIT: Furthermore, if his team was shut out in those games he won (which would have NOTHING to do with his pitching) would you say Carlton didn't have as good of a season? That makes absolutely no sense.

Sorry to keep harping on this, but this is really crazy. This is like judging a pitcher based on how many HR's the teams leftfielder hit.

[foodcourtdruide]

So kick all the cheaters out of the Hall. And stop letting known greenie users in. Those were against the rules of baseball far before steroids were against the rules.

You have a bunch of voters not voting for players that there was never any proof against. It's fucking retarded. Just what baseball needs, more smugness from their writers.

It annoys the shit out of me that they didn't vote Alomar in first ballot because of the spitting incident, especially considering that afterwards Alomar and the umpire became great friends. What the hell does that have to do with baseball? I hate the holier-than-thou attitude the writers have.

[underdog]

It annoys the shit out of me that they didn't vote Alomar in first ballot because of the spitting incident, especially considering that afterwards Alomar and the umpire became great friends. What the hell does that have to do with baseball? I hate the holier-than-thou attitude the writers have.

Baseball writers are fucking douchebags.

[Snacks]

So kick all the cheaters out of the Hall. And stop letting known greenie users in. Those were against the rules of baseball far before steroids were against the rules.

You have a bunch of voters not voting for players that there was never any proof against. It's fucking retarded. Just what baseball needs, more smugness from their writers.

and who knows what banned or unknown shit players took in the 40s and 50s and 60s and 70s etc? What about the cheaters that used pine tar or sand paper and spit balls? All illegal but there are plenty of those in the hall of fame. Steroids werent illegal as for baseball rules. Even Big Mac. He took andro which was an over the counter substance that later became illegal. We still dont know for a fact what else he took.

Personally I dont care what they took and wouldnt care if they were all juiced. Its their bodies and if done right they will not be hurt by it!

[Snacks]

It annoys the shit out of me that they didn't vote Alomar in first ballot because of the spitting incident, especially considering that afterwards Alomar and the umpire became great friends. What the hell does that have to do with baseball? I hate the holier-than-thou attitude the writers have.

even though I agree with you, this did have to do with baseball. He spit on an ump during a game so it 100% was about baseball and on the field activity. I hate when players like Eddie Murray have to wait because they arent considered media friendly! OH please, go fuck yourself you nerdy sports writers. These pompous pussies use that little bit of power they have to fuck with players. Its probably because its the 1st time they have ever had any power over anything.

[foodcourtdruide]

even though I agree with you, this did have to do with baseball. He spit on an ump during a game so it 100% was about baseball and on the field activity. I hate when players like Eddie Murray have to wait because they arent considered media friendly! OH please, go fuck yourself you nerdy sports writers. These pompous pussies use that little bit of power they have to fuck with players. Its probably because its the 1st time they have ever had any power over anything.

I guess my "this has nothing to do with baseball" line was probably the wrong thing to say :)

It seems stupid that they'd get bent out of shape about spitting, but not when one player assaults another by running after him to fight him, or intentionally throwing a 90mph baseball at them.

The Eddie Murray thing is a disgrace, agreed.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Baseball writers are fucking douchebags.

Tom Verducci is at the top of that list

[Earlshog]

Cubs have deal in place to get Garza from Rays




http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/baseball/mlb/01/07/garza.cubs/index.html?eref=sihp

[TripleSkeet]

It's an anomoly, it happened by luck of the draw. It's interesting, but there are much better statistics that can be used to measure Carlton's performance that season, which better reflect what CARLTON did, not his team.

EDIT: Furthermore, if his team was shut out in those games he won (which would have NOTHING to do with his pitching) would you say Carlton didn't have as good of a season? That makes absolutely no sense.

You mean lost right? Never seen a pitcher get a win when his team was shutout before. :wink:

[underdog]

You mean lost right? Never seen a pitcher get a win when his team was shutout before. :wink:

He's saying, instead of him winning those 27 games, what would have happened if his team was shut out in all of them, but Carlton's numbers stay the same (except for wins). Does that make his personal season worse?