Seventeen years of Pittsburgh Pirates futility

[MacVittie]

With today's loss against the Cubs, the Pirates have clinched their 17th straight losing season, more than any other team in baseball. They also have very little hope for the future, considering they have in the last few years parted with Aramis Ramierez, Jack Wilson, Jason Bay, Xavier Nady, and Nate McClouth. How long until the Pirates can turn it around and get at least one above .500 year?

[spoon]

Truth be told, MLB should contract to the 10 teams they actually care about anyway.

[jauble]

With today's loss against the Cubs, the Pirates have clinched their 17th straight losing season, more than any other team in baseball. They also have very little hope for the future, considering they have in the last few years parted with Aramis Ramierez, Jack Wilson, Jason Bay, Xavier Nady, and Nate McClouth. How long until the Pirates can turn it around and get at least one above .500 year?

I'm going to be at the game tomorrow. I was so hoping they could hold on to let me watch history.

[TheMojoPin]

They also have very little hope for the future

Not true at all.

It's pretty silly how many people are trotting out the hack "when are they going to trade blah-blah-blah?" line after the last year or so. The Pirates have finally done a good job of actually rebuilding and getting a bunch of young players they have under their control all at the same time at roughly the same stages of development for a long time and for cheap. They don't "have" to trade these guys as they've done in years past since those players were generally the rare prospect that made it out of a crop of crap and were left starnded as the lone quality players on crappy teams. They now have a bunch of players who should pan out to at least being solid everyday players. I'll be stunned if they're still the same cellar-dwellers within the next 2-3 years. So long as they don't do something stupid like the Reds did and hire Dusty Baker to murder their prospects they should be back in it if they let the glut of quality prospects they have develop coupled with a couple of smart veteran signings.

[spoon]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say not only will Pitt continue to suck and dump payroll and players with cheap contracts about to expire, but Mojo is wrong as well.

[TheMojoPin]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say not only will Pitt continue to suck and dump payroll and players with cheap contracts about to expire, but Mojo is wrong as well.

They might dump these guys when their contracts are about to expire, but that's years away. They're in a position right now to basically become like the Marlins and have a great young team that comes up and does well and then they restock the farm system by trading those guys en masse and then repeating. They have no reason to keep trading quality guys off here or there as they did in the past: they did that in the past because those were the only good guys they had at any given time with nothing on the horizon.

[MacVittie]

Not true at all.

It's pretty silly how many people are trotting out the hack "when are they going to trade blah-blah-blah?" line after the last year or so. The Pirates have finally done a good job of actually rebuilding and getting a bunch of young players they have under their control all at the same time at roughly the same stages of development for a long time and for cheap. They don't "have" to trade these guys as they've done in years past since those players were generally the rare prospect that made it out of a crop of crap and were left starnded as the lone quality players on crappy teams. They now have a bunch of players who should pan out to at least being solid everyday players. I'll be stunned if they're still the same cellar-dwellers within the next 2-3 years. So long as they don't do something stupid like the Reds did and hire Dusty Baker to murder their prospects they should be back in it if they let the glut of quality prospects they have develop coupled with a couple of smart veteran signings.

Give me a few names from this "glut" of quality prospects. I could see Alvarez and McCutchen turning into quality players, but not much else beyond that, especially in the pitching department.

[JimBeam]

Yeah but Mojo haven't they been in a position to be like the Marlins or even last year's Rays a few times already ?

I have no problem with them trading players in turn for value when they are in danger of losing those players anyway but they just seem to not be good at making competitive baseball teams.

I don't know what it is that makes them so awful but there's something.

It's gotta be their scouting.

Sure they come up with a few good players now and then but it appears, at least in the results, that a lot of their other players are just not MLBers.

I mean we're not talking about 17 years of not making the playoffs. We're talking 17 years of sub-.500 baseball.

[spoon]

I understand what you mean Mojo, I just don't think they'll stop right now. In fact, of late they even traded some guys who would/could have been their "vet" leaders you speak of as a need for making things work in the future. To me, we need a cap for two reasons, Yankees at the top and cheap teams like Pitt and Florida at the bottom. A max min cap of 150-75 million would actually raise salaries in MLB, not lessen them overall. More teams would have to come up, while ONE would have to tone down....A LOT.

[spoon]

Yeah but Mojo haven't they been in a position to be like the Marlins or even last year's Rays a few times already ?

I have no problem with them trading players in turn for value when they are in danger of losing those players anyway but they just seem to not be good at making competitive baseball teams.

I don't know what it is that makes them so awful but there's something.

It's gotta be their scouting.

Sure they come up with a few good players now and then but it appears, at least in the results, that a lot of their other players are just not MLBers.

I mean we're not talking about 17 years of not making the playoffs. We're talking 17 years of sub-.500 baseball.

It's their owner.

[TheMojoPin]

Yeah but Mojo haven't they been in a position to be like the Marlins or even last year's Rays a few times already ?

I can't think of when they were for at least a decade now.

I just don't see why they'll "have" to trade their good young players as they did in the past. In the past it was basically because that good player was essentially the ONLY good player they had anywhere in the system. I'll be stunned if they don't have at least half a dozen quality everyday players (or pitchers) emerge from their system in the next 2-3 years.

The moves they've made over the last year are significantly different than the last 10+ because they seemed to actually get a number of promising young players into their system at the same time instead of getting 1 or 2 scattered over the seasons as in years past.

[MacVittie]

I can't think of when they were for at least a decade now.

I just don't see why they'll "have" to trade their good young players as they did in the past. In the past it was basically because that good player was essentially the ONLY good player they had anywhere in the system. I'll be stunned if they don't have at least half a dozen quality everyday players (or pitchers) emerge from their system in the next 2-3 years.

Again, I could use a list of names. They aren't helping their cause by drafting guys like Daniel Moskos in the top 10 two years ago, a guy who will be a bullpen pitcher at best.

[spoon]

Again, I could use a list of names. They aren't helping their cause by drafting guys like Daniel Moskos in the top 10 two years ago, a guy who will be a bullpen pitcher at best.

That's why I'm telling you it's the owner/organization as a whole bc they are cheap. If they draft top talent at the top of the draft, they'll have to pay them too. That's why top players have slipped in the MLB draft over the last few years just bc of what it would cost to sign them with some of these cheap teams.

[TheMojoPin]

Again, I could use a list of names. They aren't helping their cause by drafting guys like Daniel Moskos in the top 10 two years ago, a guy who will be a bullpen pitcher at best.

I'm not talking about their drafts; I'm primarily talking about who they acquired this over this season and the last coupled with the few decent prospects they had already.

Feel free to peruse the numerous baseball minor league roster and analysis sites out there because I'm really too damn lazy to do it myself right now.

[jauble]

Spoon is right.

[TheMojoPin]

Spoon is right.

He is, but they way they've set themselves up now actually has a shot of the team being successful again despite the cheapness of the owners a la the Marlins.

[JimBeam]

Burt their ownership can't be that cheap. They built a new stadium a few years ago.

It's not like the city itself ( not that I know because I've neever been there ) is so bad that free agents won't go there. I base this on the fact that the Steelers manage to get free agents to stay.

[jauble]

Burt their ownership can't be that cheap. They built a new stadium a few years ago.

It's not like the city itself ( not that I know because I've neever been there ) is so bad that free agents won't go there. I base this on the fact that the Steelers manage to get free agents to stay.

Great stadium, good sports town, bad owner.

[TheMojoPin]

Great stadium, good sports town, bad owner.

It's similar to the Orioles: owner shells out for a top shelf stadium and knows that between the small core of devoted fans plus tourists who just want to see a game at the ballpark plus bumps from the big market teams that come through are enough to keep the team in the black without rocking the boat.

[spoon]

He is, but they way they've set themselves up now actually has a shot of the team being successful again despite the cheapness of the owners a la the Marlins.

My question is has there been any front office change or changing of the GM position of late? I don't believe I've heard, read or remember ever seeing such changes. If I'm right, I doubt this group of management and ownership will change at this point. If they did make a substantial move, then there is a possibility that Mojo could be on to something.

Great stadium, good sports town, bad owner.

Agreed.

[jauble]

One thing that I have been exposed to is the quickness to the "next year" thing in Pitt this season. I just dont see the method beyond it fully.

[TheMojoPin]

My question is has there been any front office change or changing of the GM position of late? I don't believe I've heard, read or remember ever seeing such changes. If I'm right, I doubt this group of management and ownership will change at this point. If they did make a substantial move, then there is a possibility that Mojo could be on to something.

The owners are actually pretty hands off, so they're different from the Orioles in that regard. Their involvement doesn't seem to stretch much beyond tightening the purse strings.

[MacVittie]

Mojo has said that they have "at least half a dozen" quality prospects, but has yet to come up with one name. And the draft does matter. The Pirates passed on Matt Wieters, Matt LaPorta, and Rick Porcello to get Moskos on 2007.

[spoon]

It's similar to the Orioles: owner shells out for a top shelf stadium and knows that between the small core of devoted fans plus tourists who just want to see a game at the ballpark plus bumps from the big market teams that come through are enough to keep the team in the black without rocking the boat.

To be fair, Angelos has spent plenty of money in the past only to fall flat on his face. Now to say his and Wren's moves were bad is an understatement to say the least. Today however, they have a low payroll and have some good young core players in fold already. Just take a look at their outfield and it's clear they have some good talent even at the MLB level now due to some good/great moves (see Bedard). I don't think Balt and Pitt are similar in many ways at all outside of sucking.

[spoon]

One thing that I have been exposed to is the quickness to the "next year" thing in Pitt this season. I just dont see the method beyond it fully.

Cheer for the Jays in the AL East and you understand the need for it early every year. Fuck Selig and that dementia riddled douche owner in NY.

[TheMojoPin]

Mojo has said that they have "at least half a dozen" quality prospects, but has yet to come up with one name. And the draft does matter. The Pirates passed on Matt Wieters, Matt LaPorta, and Rick Porcello to get Moskos on 2007.

I didn't say that the draft didn't matter: my point is that the majority of promising prospects they have right now didn't come from the draft.

And I didn't come up with one because I'm not a Pirates fan and I don't remember the names off the top of my head and I don't feel like digging it up right now. I really don't give a crap if I end up being completely wrong about the Pirates.

[El Mudo]

It's their owner.

Bingo.

What incentive do they have to win? They keep drawing close to 2 million fans a year, and make money off their (relatively new, and amazing) ball park and revenue sharing. As long as they keep making money, would anything else really matter? They're literally the only game in town from April to September (when the Stillers and Pens start again)

[spoon]

McPhail isn't doing a bad job in Baltimore in some ways, in others he is. Overall, not as bad at Wren, Thrift and Beattie at the wheel.

[TheMojoPin]

To be fair, Angelos has spent plenty of money in the past only to fall flat on his face. Now to say his and Wren's moves were bad is an understatement to say the least. Today however, they have a low payroll and have some good young core players in fold already. Just take a look at their outfield and it's clear they have some good talent even at the MLB level now due to some good/great moves (see Bedard). I don't think Balt and Pitt are similar in many ways at all outside of sucking.

Plus a slice of delicious Pie:

http://sixfourthreeblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/felix-pie2.jpg

I was annoyed when the Cubs traded him without giving him a shot at a fulltime role in CF. Pie has shown that he needs time to adjust at every level, but through AAA he did just that and put up great numbers. He's likely playing way over his head in the 2nd half, but his performance is in line with how he's been able to adjust and produce in the past.

[TheMojoPin]

McPhail isn't doing a bad job in Baltimore in some ways, in others he is. Overall, not as bad at Wren, Thrift and Beattie at the wheel.

McPhail is decent, but he's tied up at times by Angelos (see: Roberts, Brian).

[TheMojoPin]

Bingo.

What incentive do they have to win? They keep drawing close to 2 million fans a year, and make money off their (relatively new, and amazing) ball park and revenue sharing. As long as they keep making money, would anything else really matter? They're literally the only game in town from April to September (when the Stillers and Pens start again)

True, but again, they might have stumbled onto the Marlins' formula for fielding cheap, competitive teams every few years while paying jack shit for it. The Marlins' approach coupled with a city and stadium that can actually draw has to be appealing to the the owenrs.

[spoon]

Add to the Markakis and Jones and it's pretty darn solid. Jones looks like a very good player for years to come in my mind.

[MacVittie]

Plus a slice of delicious Pie:

http://sixfourthreeblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/felix-pie2.jpg

Actually, it's pronounced "pee-ay", not pie.

[TheMojoPin]

Actually, it's pronounced "pee-ay", not pie.

Dur.

[spoon]

True, but again, they might have stumbled onto the Marlins' formula for fielding cheap, competitive teams every few years while paying jack shit for it. The Marlins' approach coupled with a city and stadium that can actually draw has to be appealing to the the owenrs.

That system may get you a year or two of good baseball every decade, but it ISN'T that likely to work in the AL, or as well as the Marlins (very lucky) in the past. This coupled with the effect it has on fan support in those areas and it's a disaster in the end. Overall, if some teams are forced or even employ systems/plans like these are clear signs that the current MLB system is shit and a bottom/top cap is needed even more. The league is the product, not a few teams in big markets. It's the wisdom/lack of pure greed of the Mara family (Tim and his sons Jack and Wellington) that allows me to respect at least one New York team and it's championships, the complete opposite of those selfish clowns in pinstripes.

[spoon]

Dur.

Booosh!

[MacVittie]

Dur.

oh sorry, I was being sarcastic. I thought that's what italics meant on a message board.

[spoon]

oh sorry, I was being sarcastic. I thought that's what italics meant on a message board.

I must not be up on my translations then!

[Landblast]

I went to school in Pittsburgh, 4 years great town and people, the worst thing about it was the Pirates,.. to this day they dont seem to even exist, my last Pirates game, $1 night I sat behind the plate.