~ Human Atrocities Tied to WWII ~

[spoon]

Recently I've stumbled on some old research papers I did in college when organizing my files. Being that I went to college in the late 90's, the internet has blown up since and information is even easier to come by. Funny enough, the topic has come up on the science channel and there were some loosely related topics on the Disc and NG channels as well.

I'll provide two links, one on Operation Crossroads and another on Unit 731 (thanks tim for the info).

Operation Crossroads Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Crossroads)

To sum up Operation Crossroads I'll just say the US decided it was necessary to set off a ton of nuclear bombs in a beautiful island/atoll after kicking out the local people. To this day it's filled with radioactive contamination (even though we claim it's all but gone), especially the food supply (fruits and vegs) and ocean life.

"Their desire to return to Bikini was thwarted indefinitely by the U.S. decision to resume nuclear testing at Bikini in 1954. During the spring and summer months of 1954, 1956, and 1958, twenty-one more nuclear bombs were detonated at Bikini, yielding a total of 75 megatons, equivalent to more than three thousand Baker bombs."

Some of the footage in this strangely beautiful video from Sigor Ros is from these tests.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/aMEE9AW94Hs&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/aMEE9AW94Hs&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[spoon]

It really is sad sometimes to look back on the actions of our race across time, but this will hit even deeper than the last post.

Even reading about what Unit 731 was about and did will make you cringe over 50 years later. CCC has researched this way more than I have, but it's unreal how far people will go for what goal? What can possibly motivate us to toss away our humanity in such a way? I warn you, this information is nothing short of disgusting. If I was Japan, I'd be worried about China's growing power. I always understood their hate to some extent for Japan, but this truly would make even the worst criminal sick.

Unit 731 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731)

[HBox]

Sigur Ros can make anything strangely beautiful.

This thing between China and Japan flares up occasionally, especially with the turn Japan has been making lately in trying to, I don't really know how to describe what they are doing actually, but they are sort of walking back their horror with what they did during WW2. And then China protests with about as much unity from their massive population as is possible. I don't think Japan has anything to fear per se from China. China seems to be determined to build up the global marketplace to continue their massive expansion more than anything else so doing anything that impacts Japan's huge economy will blow back at them. But Japan will never have a friend in China.

WW2 itself was a blight on humanity. There are a lot of nations thankful that the Holocaust overshadows all the other many atrocities that occurred.

[spoon]

I truly hope you're right on this, but could you imagine the fallout if the whole North Korean/Japan/China issue exploded? After reading of the actions of unit 731, and other atrocities linked to Japan on the Pacific front such as in the Phillipines, I could hardly blame them.

[spoon]

WW2 itself was a blight on humanity. There are a lot of nations thankful that the Holocaust overshadows all the other many atrocities that occurred.

The stories my grandfather passed on to my dad almost seem made up linked to the war and what he witnessed. It's almost to hard to believe the humans can even go to those extremes, but it's clear as day they have and will again. Using history as a guide, man is capable of some awful, awful things. Nature versus nuture, what is most at fault?

[HBox]

I truly hope you're right on this, but could you imagine the fallout if the whole North Korean/Japan/China issue exploded? After reading of the actions of unit 731, and other atrocities linked to Japan on the Pacific front such as in the Phillipines, I could hardly blame them.

China will do all it can to maintain whatever little stability there is with North Korea simply because of the humanitarian crisis on their hands should war break out. But as long as the region remains stable China continues to grow and prosper. Prosperity is the greatest tool for keeping peace.

While I highly doubt anything would break out because of Japan's atrocities, should anything else cause conflict and war between Japan and China considering history and China's human rights record Japan should be extremely worried.

What would be extremely ugly is if we could get any reliable data on what was going on in Russia before, during and immediately after WW2. It would probably dwarf the holocaust.

[spoon]

I've read some on Russia, but there isn't much out there that is clear. Do you have any suggestions or links on it H?

[HBox]

The stories my grandfather passed on to my dad almost seem made up linked to the war and what he witnessed. It's almost to hard to believe the humans can even go to those extremes, but it's clear as day they have and will again. Using history as a guide, man is capable of some awful, awful things. Nature versus nuture, what is most at fault?

This is what really bothered me in the run up to the Iraq War. Getting beyond the evidence and how believable it was it just sickened me with the lack of thought about going to war. People seemed to either give it a modicum of thought or act completely indifferent to the consequences of war. Most people seemed not to care. People would rather watch bombs being dropped on TV cheer oblivious to the people who were there. It was disgusting to me. Not wanting to go to war, but the failure of some to seriously contemplate the consequences. I had some meat head in one of my college classes at the time who seriously tried to justify the war because it would drop gas prices...... and that was enough for him. Lots of really ignorant people like that in this country, hell, in this world. And it's further reflected by the current torture cheerleaders.

[HBox]

I've read some on Russia, but there isn't much out there that is clear. Do you have any suggestions or links on it H?

Any comprehensive biography on Stalin should do it. I've read estimates as high as 20 million people that he is in someway responsible for killing.

Actually now that I remember his name historian Robert Conquest has written a few books on Stalin if you can find them.

[spoon]

Any comprehensive biography on Stalin should do it. I've read estimates as high as 20 million people that he is in someway responsible for killing.

Actually now that I remember his name historian Robert Conquest has written a few books on Stalin if you can find them.

I always try to contemplate how these terrible actions seemingly progressed throughout so many different nations and cultures at one time. It really doesn't make much sense, but I'd be the first to say I'm no scholar on WW II. I'm fascinated by what people are capable of, especially linked to such recent events. I have however read a decent amount on Stalin and it really does again fit that loss of humanity pattern of the other nations in question.

It really makes you sad to read up on this, but you simply can't ignore it. As you stated, it's amazing to see how some people can justify war and now torture. Some even get in line based simply on political affiliation, while others are obviously motivated by the good old military industrial complex and how they can profit from it.

[Kublakhan61]

There's good footage of Bikini in the doc Atomic Cafe. There's 10 or so minutes of US soldiers talking to the island king about what they intend to do to the island. The people agree to helping the US ... sad.
Lots of footage of detonations, including some amazing footage of Hiroshima. The notion of bombing a 'virgin city' is both intelligent and inhuman.

[El Mudo]

Sigur Ros can make anything strangely beautiful.

This thing between China and Japan flares up occasionally, especially with the turn Japan has been making lately in trying to, I don't really know how to describe what they are doing actually, but they are sort of walking back their horror with what they did during WW2. And then China protests with about as much unity from their massive population as is possible. I don't think Japan has anything to fear per se from China. China seems to be determined to build up the global marketplace to continue their massive expansion more than anything else so doing anything that impacts Japan's huge economy will blow back at them. But Japan will never have a friend in China.

WW2 itself was a blight on humanity. There are a lot of nations thankful that the Holocaust overshadows all the other many atrocities that occurred.


It doesn't help the whole situation between the two countries when the Japanese PM goes to visit the Yasakuni Shrine, where a lot of war criminals are buried, which only goes to infuriate the Chinese, and the Koreans. Not to mention their repeated denials/explanations of war crimes committed by their country during the War.


No one's hands are clean on World War Two...from the Americans, to the British, to the Russians (especially), in a lot of cases the "good guys" could be as awful as the "bad guys"



What would be extremely ugly is if we could get any reliable data on what was going on in Russia before, during and immediately after WW2. It would probably dwarf the holocaust.

From the things i've read, it seems like we'll never know. The stuff is buried in Russian Archives for one, not to mention the roles of Government secret Agencies like SMERSH, the NKVD, which are prominent, and since the country keeps electing ex-KGB people, I don't think its going to go far on that front. With the GULAGs, a lot of them were temporary structures that stayed for a while, and then were moved on and dismantled without a trace of them ever being there (a lot like Nazi Concentration Camps, many of which were taken over and used by the Russians). Between the Camps, their building projects, like the Black Sea/Danube Canal, the Germans who were shipped to Russia and never came back, massacres like the 13,000 Polish Officers executed in the Katyn Forest, the wiping of East Prussia completely from the map and many, many others, we're talking hundreds of millions of people in a relatively short time.

Hell....between the start of the Revolution and the death of Stalin, they estimate something like 50 million Russians were killed during that time...and those are the ones we know about.


I've read some on Russia, but there isn't much out there that is clear. Do you have any suggestions or links on it H?


Spoon I would read these books


Gregor Dallas 1945: The War That Never Ended (http://www.amazon.com/1945-War-That-Never-Ended/dp/0300119887/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1244466369&sr=8-1)

One of the best histories i've ever read, on a subject that no one ever talks about, the endings of the Second World War in Europe

By the same author 1918 War And Peace

Its about the ending of the Great War, and the Paris Peace Conference, but its got some really good stuff on how basically the war in Eastern Europe never ended. The Germans were still pushing armies East into Courland and the Baltic States into the 20s (under the guise of "Free Corps"), the Russians were in a state of perpetual war with themselves, the Poles, the Ukraine, and the Allies. The Paris Peace Conference sought peace, but couldn't even administer to the half of Europe that was still fighting and in chaos.


Orlando Figes A People's Tragedy: The Russian Revolution from 1891-1924 (http://www.amazon.com/Peoples-Tragedy-Russian-Revolution-1891-1924/dp/014024364X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1244466465&sr=1-2)


Good history of the Russian Revolution, its backgrounds/origins, and the war against the Peasants and the Civil War.

Anne Applebaum Gulag (http://www.amazon.com/Gulag-History-Anne-Applebaum/dp/0767900561)

Never read it...will get around to it eventually

[styckx]

The scary part when you read any of these stories about the shit that went on during WW ][ is all the stuff you can't read about cause it's all classified. You could probably pick any vet from WW ][ that fought over there and he could tell you a story that would make your stomach turn and go on for days. Just from one man. The big picture of war we all see on TV, youtube videos is all fine and good but like spoon here seems to be interested in more is the personal war each and every person delt with over there. From losing a friend, an entire platoon, locals losing their homes, lives, everything.

This is nothing new though, if you watch any news about the Iraq war they have it pictured as if everyone is playing virtual COD4. It won't be for years down the road until the stories of the atrocities of this war start trickling out also. Some have already but most of it is well hidden behind the veil

[sr71blackbird]

Humans are by nature imperfect, and make mistakes despite our great intelligence. As far as warfare and bomb tests, I am pretty sure there are human elements involved in that too. I remember a test 6 months before the launch of Sputnik where an atomic bomb was placed at the bottom of a 1 mile prilled hole and a 6 foot diameter 6 inch steel plate placed over the holes top. The bomb was detonated and high speed cameras recorded that the plate was blown off the ground at twice the velocity needed to escape earths gravity. So, 6 months before Sputnik, we inadvertantly launched a massive plate into space. 20 years from now the Gulf War may be seen as a smart thing to do, because it is giving the people of Iraq time to escape. Once we pull out, I am pretty sure terrorists will seize control of the country. Who knows? Only time will tell.

[RoseBlood]

Sadly, I'm not well versed in WWII knowledge, so I won't comment on that, but anytime I'm made aware of such horribly embarrassing events, particularly in our great countries history I'm really saddened. We put our country on a pedestal and are suppose to be above it, but it seems to me throughout history we've had a tendency to sugar coat any wrong doing we've ever done.

As mentioned, human nature and the human spirit absolutely baffles my mind. We are blessed with the ability to do such great things and we do, paradoxically, great brain power put in the wrong hands can be catastrophic as demonstrated.

Thank you for the links and for opening some more eyes to our nations past. I'm not trying to bash the US or sound anti-american, but what good are we when we convienently choose to ignore some events that is sure to reflect negatively on us. I really think the government controls more of our knowledge than we'd like to think.

I'm glad you posted that video. "Strangely Beautiful" is the perfect discription for it. I could listen too and watch Sigur Ros all day and night, best music to fall asleep too. :sleep:

[jauble]

Alright a vagina.

[styckx]

I guess the report button here just divides by zero.

[jauble]

I guess the report button here just divides by zero.

I would fix it but its not my forum.

[styckx]

Now I'm starvin. See what you did?