Sweet Lou Pinella

[CYYYFYYY]

Everyone calls this guy a genius. WHY? He has not won anything in 20 years, did nothing with the Rays and he leaves and they get to the world series. The Mariners did well but never won it all. The Cubs are under 500 and they are a good team, he is viewed as a G-d, can someone explain this to me

[El Mudo]

Everyone calls this guy a genius. WHY? He has not won anything in 20 years, did nothing with the Rays and he leaves and they get to the world series. The Mariners did well but never won it all. The Cubs are under 500 and they are a good team, he is viewed as a G-d, can someone explain this to me



Well...in his defence, people also think Tony LaRussa is a genius

[Freitag]

Everyone calls this guy a genius. WHY? He has not won anything in 20 years, did nothing with the Rays and he leaves and they get to the world series. The Mariners did well but never won it all. The Cubs are under 500 and they are a good team, he is viewed as a G-d, can someone explain this to me

He's won the NL Central twice since arriving in Chicago, three divisional titles with Seattle, plus that whole "World Series" win.

You're an idiot if you think the Rays made a miraculous turnaround as soon as Pinella left. Two years elapsed after that, and the Rays added Longoria. Pinella was dealing with pure garbage when he was managing there.

[TheMojoPin]

Wait, who is calling Lou a "genius" or "God?"

[IMSlacker]

Wait, who is calling Lou a "genius" or "God?"

Yeah. I haven't seen any such claims. "Fiery" is the description I always see.

[TheMojoPin]

One of the biggest problems he's always had as a manager is handling a bullpen. That's only magnified when he's given one that's shaky at best. He ends up misusing valuable pitchers in the totally wrong spots and ends up running them out of town when they don't pan out according to his insane plans (wish we had you right now, Michael Wuertz) and he also keeps inexplicably going to guys who clearly don't have anything left (Bob Howry, Neal Cotts).

[CYYYFYYY]

I always hear Yankkes fans as well as Mets fans saying we want Lou. He did win a world serious but for goodness sake he has managed for 22 years so one is nothing special. He was also the genius who thought it was a good idea for trading O"Niel for Roberto Kelly. I thank him for that one.

[Ryan Kulik]

Well...in his defence, people also think Tony LaRussa is a genius

Tony LaRussa has won 5 pennants and won the World Series in both leagues.

[TheMojoPin]

Tony LaRussa has won 5 pennants and won the World Series in both leagues.

The only genius on the Cardinals' coaching staff is Dave Duncan. That guy is amazing.

[Tallman388]

I always hear Yankkes fans as well as Mets fans saying we want Lou. He did win a world serious but for goodness sake he has managed for 22 years so one is nothing special. He was also the genius who thought it was a good idea for trading O"Niel for Roberto Kelly. I thank him for that one.

It probably has something to do with him being a Yankee in the 70s & 80s. And I'm pretty sure he wasn't the GM who traded Paul O'Neill to the yankees.

[foodcourtdruide]

I always hear Yankkes fans as well as Mets fans saying we want Lou. He did win a world serious but for goodness sake he has managed for 22 years so one is nothing special. He was also the genius who thought it was a good idea for trading O"Niel for Roberto Kelly. I thank him for that one.

That is more of a Yankees fans thing. I've honestly never heard a Mets fan say they wanted Lou to manage. I agree with your original post though, totally overrated.

[Freitag]

I always hear Yankkes fans as well as Mets fans saying we want Lou. He did win a world serious but for goodness sake he has managed for 22 years so one is nothing special. He was also the genius who thought it was a good idea for trading O"Niel for Roberto Kelly. I thank him for that one.

Always?

Mets fans are calling for Bobby Valentine, not Lou Pinella.

And there WERE rumors about Pinella to the Yankees, but that was YEARS ago.

And a World Series win is "nothing special"???

There's been a little over 100 series. How many have been won by multiple managers, and how many of those are getting into the HOF?

As for the O'Neill trade, I'm sure that the GENERAL MANAGER and MARGE SCHOTT had nothing to do with that. At all.

You don't win Manager of the Year multiple times and not be something special.

[Suspect Chin]

He's proven himself to be a great coach in the past and I believe he still is. However, the Cubs have been plagued with injuries this year and for the most part many usually reliable members of the team have not performed.

As Mojo said, the pitching staff, in particular the relievers have been abysmal and Lou, being a loyal guy, continues to go to them. Its not like he has much choice anyway in who resides in his bullpen.

As terrible as Kevin Gregg has been, the offense has not given him many save opportunities to prove himself.

[King Hippos Bandaid]

Lou is not a god, what I like about Lou is that he is not a pussy


The Mets have had 2 Pussies (Randolph and Manuel) not push their team enough in my opinion

Sweet Lou may not be a genius , but he is aggressive with the umps and his team, I respect him for that

[Doogie]

Everyone calls this guy a genius. WHY? He has not won anything in 20 years, did nothing with the Rays and he leaves and they get to the world series. The Mariners did well but never won it all. The Cubs are under 500 and they are a good team, he is viewed as a G-d, can someone explain this to me

Lou Pinella is only one of two managers to get 90 wins with four different teams. I think "sweet Lou" (nice of you to rip off a Pearl Jam song) is very deserved of any credit he gets. Is it his fault the Cubs are in neutral this year?? Perhaps. But lets be fair and look at the team and how some guys are just slumping.

[foodcourtdruide]

Always?

Mets fans are calling for Bobby Valentine, not Lou Pinella.

And there WERE rumors about Pinella to the Yankees, but that was YEARS ago.

And a World Series win is "nothing special"???

There's been a little over 100 series. How many have been won by multiple managers, and how many of those are getting into the HOF?

As for the O'Neill trade, I'm sure that the GENERAL MANAGER and MARGE SCHOTT had nothing to do with that. At all.

You don't win Manager of the Year multiple times and not be something special.

I hear Mets fans call for Bobby V. and Gary Carter. Though, I'd say besides a few minor things Mets fans are pretty happy with Jerry. Anytime the Yankees have a few bad weeks I hear Piniella's name come up, but that may just be the company I keep.

Wouldn't you say that Piniella has underachieved as the Cubs manager? That team had the talent to make the World Series a few seasons.

[Suspect Chin]

That team had the talent to make the World Series a few seasons.

Don't remind me.

[foodcourtdruide]

Lou is not a god, what I like about Lou is that he is not a pussy


The Mets have had 2 Pussies (Randolph and Manuel) not push their team enough in my opinion

Sweet Lou may not be a genius , but he is aggressive with the umps and his team, I respect him for that

The Mets being 5 games over .500 with the wealth of injuries they've had is pretty incredible. Dude, that line-up looks like a AAA team with David Wright and Gary Sheffield on a rehab assignment everynight.

[foodcourtdruide]

Don't remind me.

I know! That's why I'm not so impressed with Piniella. I also say it's pretty bad he never made it to the World Series with the Mariners. That team had insane talent.

[CYYYFYYY]

Pinella hated O'Neil. He said he is not a good hitter and he wanted nothing to do with O'Niel. Both of them have docummented that they HATE each other. If you coach 22 years I think you should have more than one championship unless you only managed small market teams your whole career. He is never unemplyoed. He goes from one team to another team. He also was only in one world series. It is not like he has been in a bunch and only won one. He managed the Mariners team that had the most wins and they too did not get to the series.

[foodcourtdruide]

Pinella hated O'Neil. He said he is not a good hitter and he wanted nothing to do with O'Niel. Both of them have docummented that they HATE each other. If you coach 22 years I think you should have more than one championship unless you only managed small market teams your whole career. He is never unemplyoed. He goes from one team to another team. He also was only in one world series. It is not like he has been in a bunch and only won one. He managed the Mariners team that had the most wins and they too did not get to the series.

So, how would you compare him to Bobby Cox? Would you say they are on the same level, or does Cox blow him away?

[Ryan Kulik]

The only genius on the Cardinals' coaching staff is Dave Duncan. That guy is amazing.

I don't think any of these guys are geniuses. Baseball is a sport where coaching matter the least compared to football and basketball. I was just pointing out there there is a big difference in the postseason accomplishments of Pinella and LaRussa, since the original poster pointed out that he hasn't won anything in 20 year (actually, it's been 19 years...)

[foodcourtdruide]

Tony LaRussa has won 5 pennants and won the World Series in both leagues.

But he bats the pitcher 8th!

[TheMojoPin]

I don't think any of these guys are geniuses. Baseball is a sport where coaching matter the least compared to football and basketball. I was just pointing out there there is a big difference in the postseason accomplishments of Pinella and LaRussa, since the original poster pointed out that he hasn't won anything in 20 year (actually, it's been 19 years...)

I actually think the hitting and pitching coaches do have substantial impact, far more than the manager. It cannot be a fluke at this point how many medicore to shitty pitchers that Duncan has been able to at least get the better part of a season's worth of decent production from. The guy is easily the best pitching coach in the game.

[El Mudo]

Tony LaRussa has won 5 pennants and won the World Series in both leagues.


He also thought having Aaron Rowand bat in the last inning of the All Star game with two outs instead of pinch hitting Albert Pujols for him was a good idea

I'll let FireJoeMorgan take the rest (http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2007/04/managers.html)

If you haven't already, I invite you to read Buzz Bissinger's book 3 Nights in August, about La Russa. The purported aim of the book is to show how brilliant La Russa is as a strategist. The actual accomplishment is to make one feel like one wouldn't trust La Russa to take care of one's cats, much less one's baseball team. It starts with an anecdote about how Albert Pujols has a severe arm injury -- one that allows him to swing a bat but not throw. La Russa wants to play him anyway, to like intimidate the other team (which doesn't know about the injury), so he puts him in left field and tells him to casually underhand the ball to the SS if it gets hit to him. A doctor has told La Russa that Pujols, the most important player on the team by a factor of fifty, is risking severe like career-threatening shit if he throws a baseball. This is a not-super-important game. I mean, what the hell?
Avid readers of this blog might remember many months ago when I wrote that I was going to do a lengthy review of this book. I started reading and making notes. By page 80 I had filled ten notebook pages with scribbles and exclamation points and frowny faces, and decided the task was just too big.

And before we go talking about how La Russa is a master strategist because his crappy team won the WS after winning 83 games last year, let's all remember that he controlled three of the most disappointing WS teams in recent history -- the 88 A's (104 wins, McGwire/Canseco, 3 16 game winners and Eck, blown out in 5 games by the Dodgers), the '90 A's (who got humiliated by the Reds) and the '04 Cardinals (who won 105 games and got brushed aside like sidewalk trash).

[TheMojoPin]

Pinella hated O'Neil. He said he is not a good hitter and he wanted nothing to do with O'Niel. Both of them have docummented that they HATE each other. If you coach 22 years I think you should have more than one championship unless you only managed small market teams your whole career. He is never unemplyoed. He goes from one team to another team. He also was only in one world series. It is not like he has been in a bunch and only won one. He managed the Mariners team that had the most wins and they too did not get to the series.

Playoffs are a crapshoot. The best team is never a lock to make it all the way. Lou has a ton of flaws, but blaming him or any other manager for a good team not making it to the WS doesn't really work. Anything can happen in those short series. It's all a matter of which team is hot at the time.

[CYYYFYYY]

Bobby Cox has won a world series and been in several others hence I have him ranked much higher than Sweet Lou. As for saying the playoffs is a crap shoot. I agree with that to a degree but not totally. I think people love him because of his insane fights with the umps. To me is not horrible but he is definitely nothing special and it is a shock that he has managed to manage 22 years

[Freitag]

Pinella hated O'Neil. He said he is not a good hitter and he wanted nothing to do with O'Niel. Both of them have docummented that they HATE each other. If you coach 22 years I think you should have more than one championship unless you only managed small market teams your whole career.

So your initial argument is that Lou was a bad judge of talent, and that's why he got rid of O'Neill, and now you're saying that it was personality conflict?

Pinella wanted O'Neill gone? Fine. What Pinella gets BACK in that trade is out of his hands.

[Freitag]

Bobby Cox has won a world series and been in several others hence I have him ranked much higher than Sweet Lou. As for saying the playoffs is a crap shoot. I agree with that to a degree but not totally. I think people love him because of his insane fights with the umps. To me is not horrible but he is definitely nothing special and it is a shock that he has managed to manage 22 years

Ladies and Gentlemen, New BDC!

[TheMojoPin]

So your initial argument is that Lou was a bad judge of talent, and that's why he got rid of O'Neill, and now you're saying that it was personality conflict?

Pinella wanted O'Neill gone? Fine. What Pinella gets BACK in that trade is out of his hands.

Though this indicative of something Lou has done throughout his career. If a player gets into his stupid "doghouse," regardless of their worth or value, they typically end up rushed out the door.

[cougarjake13]

wasnt there a bunch of talk of the mets trying to get pinella before they hired randolph ??

[Doogie]

Bobby Cox has won a world series and been in several others hence I have him ranked much higher than Sweet Lou. As for saying the playoffs is a crap shoot. I agree with that to a degree but not totally. I think people love him because of his insane fights with the umps. To me is not horrible but he is definitely nothing special and it is a shock that he has managed to manage 22 years

In case you missed my case earlier. Think of how many managers there are out their with ZERO world series rings. And Lou managed 4 different clubs to 90 win seasons. That is a feat that is not done merely cause he is "overhyped", or by luck, but cause he know how to get the best out of the talent he has. That 1990 Reds team really is not an overwhelmingly powerful team, yet Lou got the best out of the talent he had.

Ok, sure he hasnt won anything since, and he couldnt turn around the Devil Rays. I dont think Joe McCarthy could have of turned that team around with its woeful upper management. But Lou is arguably one of the better managers in the league today and all time. And yes Lou is a bit of a throw back to the era of arguing vehemently with umps. Good. Baseball has gotten laid back with some of the pussies out there. Nice to see a manager with some gumption.

Bobby Cox on the other hand had the greatest longevity of God-given talent in pitchers yet managed only ONE (count it folks) World Series victory. The team was overloaded in talent, dominated the NL West, then later the East for 15 years. Yet the man could only pull off one world series win. And yes his numbers outshine Pinella overall, but face it, Lou was mired in Tampa Bay for a long time. A place that did not help out his overall numbers.

(You can compare the records here (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/mgrvic1.shtml))

In conclusion, Lou's record speaks for itself. And I do think he is one of the better managers in history.

FIN

[CYYYFYYY]

I discussed this issue last night with my friend Nahum Zak who is the Authority on Lou Pinella and he told me in fact that he was over ratted and he is just an average manager

[foodcourtdruide]

I discussed this issue last night with my friend Nahum Zak who is the Authority on Lou Pinella and he told me in fact that he was over ratted and he is just an average manager

Mods, lock the thread. Thanks.

[CYYYFYYY]

Why the heck should this thread be locked, becuase I used Nahums Zaks name in vein?

[foodcourtdruide]

Why the heck should this thread be locked, becuase I used Nahums Zaks name in vein?

No, because the authority on Lou Piniella has spoken!!! Granted, not directly to us, however it is enough for me.

[CYYYFYYY]

FoodCourtDruide, you are a genius and I beg for your forgiveness for me misunderstanding you. Yes Mods you may now close this thread. There is nothing left to discuss

[Gvac]

For 1990 alone Lou Piniella deserves to be enshrined in the managerial Hall of Fame.

[Suspect Chin]

For 1990 alone Lou Piniella deserves to be enshrined in the managerial Hall of Fame.

What about this guy?
http://www.rotorob.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/chris_sabo.jpg

[Gvac]

What about this guy?
http://www.rotorob.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/chris_sabo.jpg

HAHAHA!

I had a love/hate thing for that creepy freak!

Now Eric the Red...

[epo]

HAHAHA!

I had a love/hate thing for that creepy freak!

Now Eric the Red...

That's funny, because apparently the Nasty Boys hate you!

[lleeder]

I consider him a genius cause he can walk into any bar in the city without immediately getting kicked out.