Michael Vick

[The Happening]

I didn't see a Michael Vick thread anywhere. If I simply missed one by mistake, I apologize to the anal messageboard posters who will be crushed by this. Besides, my Vick thread is better! I just had a few quick points to make.

Obviously Vick SHOULD be allowed back into the NFL, if someone wants him ofcourse(and they will). Vick has surved his time for what he's done. You can't punish him further by not letting/wanting him to work. If an employer is willing to employ him, then he should be given the chance. Pretty basic rationale, right? Well not to everyone. Just like how their are people in this country who think Rob Drydek is hip. Their are also people who won't leave Vick alone for what he's done.

Ok, now on to Michael Vick the football player. Michael Vick is one of the most overrated athletes in the history of sports. He's been called the "face of the NFL". A "great player". And a "special quaterback". But really, what has he done? Ok, he's "the best rushing QB of all time". Awesome! Good for him! Amazing! But that's like saying Wilt Chamberlain was the best passing center of all time. Or Fergie Jenkins was the best hitting pitcher of all-time. A QB's productivity ultimately comes down to his ability to pass. Something Vick didn't do very well. Here are Vick's stats from his 6 seasons in the NFL as a passer: 74 career games 11505 yds 71 TD 52 INT a 53.8% Completion % and a 75.7 QB rating. That's an average of 155 passing yards per game, and 1 passing TD per game. Those are mediocre numbers at best. Now here are Vick stats as a rusher over his 6 NFL seasons: 3859 yds 21 TD 55 Fmb. So over the course of his 6 year NFL career, Vick was responsible for 92 TD and 107 turnovers. That's about as productive as Devin Hester in a spelling bee.

Next we hear about "what a winner" Vick is. Vick is 38-28-1 as a starter. In the playoffs he's 2-2. And frankly, Vick wasn't the reason the Falcons won when they did. In 4 career playoff games Vick threw for 3 TD 3 INT and just 609 YDS. Rex Grossman is 19-12 as a starting QB, 2-2 in the playoffs, and took his team to a Super Bowl(something Vick has never done). Yet Rex isn't called a winner. Rex is called many things(gaymo, george the retard, guy who has trouble throwing football), but once again winner isn't one of them. Infact, Rex is having trouble finding a job as a backup in the NFL this season.

What's going to happen with Vick? I think he will be playing in the NFL again, but not this coming season, and not as a full-time QB. Vick will probably play in the CFL for a little bit, as somewhat of an extended try-out/I will stay out of trouble holding period until he gets back into the NFL. Once he gets on an NFL team, it will probably be as a "wildcat" QB, with some WR/RB sprinkled in. It's probably the type of position he should have been in when he first got into the NFL. Anyway, Vick was never close to being great as a football player. He was mediocre at best. I think the word the overrating media/fans should have used for Vick was exciting. Because at times, that's what he was. But he wasn't great or even good very often!

[boobieman]

Just wonder will Stallworth be suspended as long as vick..or should he be longer...He Killed a guy. Vick killed dogs, but Donte killed a guy. Drunk and stupied. And I actually liked Stallworth when he was a Eagle.

Just curious what the NFL will do.

SEEYAYYAAAAAA

[sailor]

there are a few (http://www.ronfez.net/forums/search.php?searchid=2193377).

[lleeder]

there are a few (http://www.ronfez.net/forums/search.php?searchid=2193377).

Are there any threads about vicks vapor rub?

[sailor]

Are there any threads about vicks vapor rub?

how about chicks masturbating (http://www.ronfez.net/forums/showthread.php?t=24733) with it?

[nate1000]

Too lazy to start a new Dick/ prick/ lick/ hick thread:

I didn't see a Dick thread anywhere. If I simply missed one by mistake, I apologize to the anal messageboard posters who will be crushed by this. Besides, my Dick thread is better! I just had a few quick points to make.

I didn't see a Michael Prick thread anywhere. If I simply missed one by mistake, I apologize to the anal messageboard posters who will be crushed by this. Besides, my Prick thread is better! I just had a few quick points to make....

[Snoogans]

Why does everyone hate Vick so much for having dogs fight, but no one gives a shit that Leonard Little killed someone and pretty much didnt get in trouble

[ToiletCrusher]

Snoogans truth bomb.

[instrument]

I think vicks done pretty good for being at the helm of a mediocre-horrible team.

[The Happening]

I think vicks done pretty good for being at the helm of a mediocre-horrible team. The Falcons were in the Super Bowl a few seasons before drafting Vick. They also assembled a great running game, along with a solid defense over the course of the time Vick was with Atlanta. Nobody would describe Atlanta's team as being either mediocre or horrible back then. Infact, they were an all-around above average team.

[Snoogans]

The Falcons were in the Super Bowl a few seasons before drafting Vick. They also assembled a great running game, along with a solid defense over the course of the time Vick was with Atlanta. Nobody would describe Atlanta's team as being either mediocre or horrible back then. Infact, they were an all-around above average team.

they were in teh SB with almost a completely different team. And a LARGE part of the reason Atlanta ran so well is LBs couldnt attack as much against them. Why? BECAUSE VICK WOULD GO RUN FOR 200 YARDS.

Stop acting like this guy had no talent and did nothing to help his team win just because you dont like him. Its fuckin NONSENSE.

Everyone who watched the Falcons go into GB and beat the Packers that year knows how much Vick meant to that team. Give it up. We get it. You hate him cause he fought dogs and now you are gonna shit on him no matter what

[The Happening]

Why does everyone hate Vick so much for having dogs fight, but no one gives a shit that Leonard Little killed someone and pretty much didnt get in trouble You say that, but people were outraged when Leonard Little was convicted of manslaughter back in 98' when he was under the influence and hit and killed a woman, and only got 90 days. Just like people are outraged now with what has happened with Stallworth. What do you want people to do to voice their outrage? Maybe picket Stallworth's house? The football season hasn't started yet.

I'm of the belief that Vick SHOULD be able to work now if he has a willing employer. He has served the time that the courts have sentenced him to. But I can't understand why people can't fathom why people are outraged over what Vick did.

Vick funded a dog fighting ring for starters. Lets step back and look at this. A rich NFL player is funding an illegal event that doesn't come close to matching his very lucrative career as an NFL player. So right off the bat we are dealing with an idiot. I mean, what's his motivation for not only financing an illegal dog fighting ring, but getting his hands dirty in the process? So right off the bat we know we are dealing with both a sick person, and an idiot.

Next Vick admitted to personally killing dogs with his own hands. What dog fighters do is kill the dogs that lose in fights via drowning, hanging, etc. So we now have a person who can kill an innocent animal without blinking an eye. Now some people have this preconceived notion that pit bulls are "mean" dogs, and are less sympathetic to the pit bulls who were killed. But what people don't understand is that dogs are a direct extension of how their owner raises them to be. Pit bulls who are raised normally by good owners happen to be GREAT dogs. If a lab is raised to be mean and aggressive, then the lab is going to be ...... mean and aggressive. Go figure?

Over the course of fighting dogs, the people involved do a large amount of abusing. For instance in some cases they put steroids into the dogs, making the dogs more aggressive and stronger. They will also starve the dogs for days, thus making them more blood thirsty. Oh, and for "sparing partners" the dog fighters will go steal your or my dog no matter what breed it is, duck tap it's mouth shut, and throw in in a pit with their pit bull to have a field day with. Dog fighting isn't some guys sitting around and simply letting dogs go at it(bad in it's own right). These guys are sick people, who take part in many abusive and awful steps on their way to the actual dog fights.

Dogs in every case are innocent. They do not have the means to defend themselves mentally. So that's why people get so outraged when they are abused. Dogs/animals can't voice their pain. What the Vick apologists need to stop doing is using the cliche' " you guys care more about dogs than people". That's not the case. They are just giving a voice to a group that is being abused, and can't speak up for themselves. Maybe the Vick apologists should stop crying about how people are more outraged about dogs being defended than humans, and go out and picket every Stallworth or Leonard Little game. Maybe get off the couch and voice your own outrage, instead of talking about how the outrage should be rightfully voiced.

[Snoogans]

its not that i cant understand the outrage. But no, you are wrong. NO ONE WAS NEAR AS OUTRAGED BY LEONARD LITTLE. NO ONE IS NEAR AS OUTRAGED NOW OVER STALLWORTH. NO ONE WAS NEAR AS MAD WHEN CARRUTH DID WHAT HE DID.

The Vick story was on ESPN non stop for like 3 straight weeks when it broke. The ONLY thing that ever got that much attention is steroids.

All the times where an athlete has done something just as awful but to other HUMANS, no one seems to really give a fuck relative to how much they killed Vick for it.

Im not sayin Vick didnt do something fucked up, but seriously, the outrage levels for Vick were like 10000000000 times the levels for even Stallworth right now

[The Happening]

they were in teh SB with almost a completely different team. And a LARGE part of the reason Atlanta ran so well is LBs couldnt attack as much against them. Why? BECAUSE VICK WOULD GO RUN FOR 200 YARDS.

Stop acting like this guy had no talent and did nothing to help his team win just because you dont like him. Its fuckin NONSENSE.

Everyone who watched the Falcons go into GB and beat the Packers that year knows how much Vick meant to that team. Give it up. We get it. You hate him cause he fought dogs and now you are gonna shit on him no matter what Take a deep breath, and wipe those tears. My opinion of Vick's play is totally seperate from what he did off the field. In life you have to seperate the artist from the art. OJ Simpson was a GREAT running back. Pete Townsend is a great musician. My opinion of Vick as a player is the same now as it was before the whole dog fighting crap. So save me the crybaby routine. Vick had talent as a running QB. But that's it. He was a very poor passing QB.

Stop exaggerating, Vick didn't run for 200 yard games. The Falcons ran so well because they had a strong line, and a 3 headed rushing attack of Dunn/Duckett/Vick.

The Falcons defense and offensive line was reflective of their Super Bowl team.

I love how you have to go back to a playoff game in 2003 to try and prove how good Vick was. This is a great example as to why you have no idea what you're talking about. In that game Vick completed 13 of 25 passes for a total of 117 yds and 1 TD pass. Yea, amazing! In Vick's final 2 seasons the Falcons didn't even make the playoffs. Yet he's SO VALUABLE TO THEM.

Look, you know who talks about how great Vick was? People who don't know football. Casual fans who only look at Madden covers, and watch a QB rush for yards and get excited. But people who actually know the game knew how mediocre Vick was as a QB. As a QB in the NFL Vick was a turnover machine, who threw for a poor percentage. As his career went on, his teams didn't make the playoffs.

[Snoogans]

Take a deep breath, and wipe those tears. My opinion of Vick's play is totally seperate from what he did off the field. In life you have to seperate the artist from the art. OJ Simpson was a GREAT running back. Pete Townsend is a great musician. My opinion of Vick as a player is the same now as it was before the whole dog fighting crap. So save me the crybaby routine. Vick had talent as a running QB. But that's it. He was a very poor passing QB.

Stop exaggerating, Vick didn't run for 200 yard games. The Falcons ran so well because they had a strong line, and a 3 headed rushing attack of Dunn/Duckett/Vick.

The Falcons defense and offensive line was reflective of their Super Bowl team.

I love how you have to go back to a playoff game in 2003 to try and prove how good Vick was. This is a great example as to why you have no idea what you're talking about. In that game Vick completed 13 of 25 passes for a total of 117 yds and 1 TD pass. Yea, amazing! In Vick's final 2 seasons the Falcons didn't even make the playoffs. Yet he's SO VALUABLE TO THEM.

Look, you know who talks about how great Vick was? People who don't know football. Casual fans who only look at Madden covers, and watch a QB rush for yards and get excited. But people who actually know the game knew how mediocre Vick was as a QB. As a QB in the NFL Vick was a turnover machine, who threw for a poor percentage. As his career went on, his teams didn't make the playoffs.

Im sorry. I forgot that stats mean everything, and what actually happens on the field with teammates and shit is just garbage.

how bout the fact that the falcons probably dropped a good 8 passes a game for vick. Price was shit. Most of them were shit. Thats why he ended up throwin to crumpler 50 times a game, even if he was double covered. Cause no one else would catch it.

Trust me I watched plenty of his games. I watched him set the NCAA freshman passing efficiency rating in college, right through him in the NFL. In the NFL, he was not a good passing QB. But he didnt have much help either. He wasnt shit. And his legs broke games open. More importantly, his teammates genuinely seemed to like playing with him. And the year he broke his leg in the preseason, the same team that almost made a SB with him was awful.

There is something to that. Something more than numbers on a piece of paper.

[TripleSkeet]

You say that, but people were outraged when Leonard Little was convicted of manslaughter back in 98' when he was under the influence and hit and killed a woman, and only got 90 days. Just like people are outraged now with what has happened with Stallworth. .

What people? The only place Ive even heard an opinion on what Stallworth did was on this fucking message board!

Ya know, Im not defending Mike Vick, but honeslty, what he did was just dumb. Even the punishment he got was too much. They are fucking animals. No different then killing a fucking mouse or a raccoon. Just because people have more of an attachment to them doesnt make their lives more valuable then a humans.

Yet you compare the cases and the human life is trivialized compared to this stupid dogfighting bullshit.

[The Happening]

What people? The only place Ive even heard an opinion on what Stallworth did was on this fucking message board!

Ya know, Im not defending Mike Vick, but honeslty, what he did was just dumb. Even the punishment he got was too much. They are fucking animals. No different then killing a fucking mouse or a raccoon. Just because people have more of an attachment to them doesnt make their lives more valuable then a humans.

Yet you compare the cases and the human life is trivialized compared to this stupid dogfighting bullshit. Nobody compared them. Learn to read please. Just because they are brought up in the same paragraph/topic, doesn't mean they are being compared, Comparing them would be me saying "Michael Vick killing those dogs, is just like Leonard Little/Stallworth killing humans". I said nothing like that. So once again, PLEASE READ SLOWLY.

Just because people are defending the dogs killed by Vick, doesn't mean that they think a dogs life is above a humans life. They are just defending something that doesn't have a voice. Maybe people like you should be at the court house when Leonard Little comes out of the court room voicing your outrage, instead of complaining about people who are voicing their outrage about something else. This shoudln't be an indictment on the people who are defending dogs. It should be about everyone else complaining about the people who are defending dogs, yet are sitting on the couch and nowhere near a court house defending the person that Leonard Little killed. Their is enough protesting to go around.

[El Mudo]

its not that i cant understand the outrage. But no, you are wrong. NO ONE WAS NEAR AS OUTRAGED BY LEONARD LITTLE. NO ONE IS NEAR AS OUTRAGED NOW OVER STALLWORTH. NO ONE WAS NEAR AS MAD WHEN CARRUTH DID WHAT HE DID.

The Vick story was on ESPN non stop for like 3 straight weeks when it broke. The ONLY thing that ever got that much attention is steroids.

All the times where an athlete has done something just as awful but to other HUMANS, no one seems to really give a fuck relative to how much they killed Vick for it.

Im not sayin Vick didnt do something fucked up, but seriously, the outrage levels for Vick were like 10000000000 times the levels for even Stallworth right now


Bravo sir....could not agree with you more

[The Happening]

Im sorry. I forgot that stats mean everything, and what actually happens on the field with teammates and shit is just garbage.
The ultimate excuse statement made to justify a players bad stats/poor play on the field. Stats don't lie, and they say Michael Vick was a mediocre QB. Rex Grossman took the Bears to a Super Bowl, yet I don't hear anyone using the " forget the stats" or " he just wins" excuse. And by the way, you keep bringing up something that happened in the 2002-2003 season. The Falcons DIDN'T make the playoffs over Vick's final two seasons. So if his stats were bad, and his team didn't win, what other excuses do you have?

[The Happening]

Im not sayin Vick didnt do something fucked up, but seriously, the outrage levels for Vick were like 10000000000 times the levels for even Stallworth right now But that doesn't make what Vick did any less awful. And it isn't the people who were outraged against what Vick did 10000000000 times the level for what even Stallworth did's fault. It's everyone elses fault for not being outraged. Me, you, everyone. Why are the people who are outraged against Vick being the target for everyone elses lack of outrage? The focus is on the wrong people.

[Snoogans]

The ultimate excuse statement made to justify a players bad stats/poor play on the field. Stats don't lie, and they say Michael Vick was a mediocre QB. Rex Grossman took the Bears to a Super Bowl, yet I don't hear anyone using the " forget the stats" or " he just wins" excuse. And by the way, you keep bringing up something that happened in the 2002-2003 season. The Falcons DIDN'T make the playoffs over Vick's final two seasons. So if his stats were bad, and his team didn't win, what other excuses do you have?

i forgot only 1 guy plays on a team at once and he is solely responsible for the entire team. Joe Montana missed the playoffs a few times, too. man he really sucked.

And no im not callin vick montana, just sayin how blanket statements over things having to do with 1 guy on a team of 53 are kinda stupid

[The Happening]

i forgot only 1 guy plays on a team at once and he is solely responsible for the entire team. Joe Montana missed the playoffs a few times, too. man he really sucked.

And no im not callin vick montana, just sayin how blanket statements over things having to do with 1 guy on a team of 53 are kinda stupid
But you're the same guy talking about how HE(Vick) almost brought the team to the SB. And how stats don't matter. Come on man, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth now. If your argument is going to be against stats, and all about what happens on the field, then you have to bring up the fact that over his last two seasons the Flacons failed to make the playoffs. Come on man, you can't run from that "what happens on the field" crap now.

Yes, but Montana showed that he was consistently a good QB on the field. Oh yea, and he WON FOUR SUPER BOWLS.

[Snoogans]

But you're the same guy talking about how HE(Vick) almost brought the team to the SB. And how stats don't matter. Come on man, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth now. If your argument is going to be against stats, and all about what happens on the field, then you have to bring up the fact that over his last two seasons the Flacons failed to make the playoffs. Come on man, you can't run from that "what happens on the field" crap now.

Yes, but Montana showed that he was consistently a good QB on the field. Oh yea, and he WON FOUR SUPER BOWLS.

I already made a point to this. EVEN GOOD PLAYERS ARE SOMETIMES ON TEAMS THAT DONT WIN.

Michael Jordan didnt make the playoffs for 5 years when he started. It happens. That was my point. You could have the best QB in the world, if the team sucks or has ZERO receivers, they wont win. You cant then act like its all the QBs fault.

There are ALOT of reasons it didnt work in the end. Alot are on Vick, a GOOD NUMBER are on the receivers, and a good part of it is on Dan Reeves and other coaches not really adjusting well to the player they had. You cant just sit here and say because he completely 53% of his passes, that he didnt help his team win games, cause you know thats bullshit. You would have to be blind to think the falcons teams Vick was on would be better without him. You are wrong, and you wont accept that you are even 1% wrong. So just leave it alone. We will not agree and im sick of your long winded bullshit

[The Happening]

I already made a point to this. EVEN GOOD PLAYERS ARE SOMETIMES ON TEAMS THAT DONT WIN.

Michael Jordan didnt make the playoffs for 5 years when he started. It happens. That was my point. You could have the best QB in the world, if the team sucks or has ZERO receivers, they wont win. You cant then act like its all the QBs fault.

There are ALOT of reasons it didnt work in the end. Alot are on Vick, a GOOD NUMBER are on the receivers, and a good part of it is on Dan Reeves and other coaches not really adjusting well to the player they had. You cant just sit here and say because he completely 53% of his passes, that he didnt help his team win games, cause you know thats bullshit. You would have to be blind to think the falcons teams Vick was on would be better without him. You are wrong, and you wont accept that you are even 1% wrong. So just leave it alone. We will not agree and im sick of your long winded bullshit
Yea, you aren't even putting up a good argument anymore. Does it take alot of effort to talk out of both sides of your mouth?

[TheMojoPin]

Fight the good fight, Snoogans.

[Snoogans]

Yea, you aren't even putting up a good argument anymore. Does it take alot of effort to talk out of both sides of your mouth?

you arent even making sense. Where am I talkin out of both sides of my mouth?

[Snoogans]

ok i think i found what you are hung up on. I never said Vick almost carried anyone to the SB. The point I made to you is the team was BETTER with Vick playing QB than when he wasn't. As evidenced by how bad the team was when he got hurt and missed games. Somehow you took that to mean I said if it wasn't for Vick the falcons dont win a game?

And now YOU are making the stretch that because a guy doesn't win the SB, he didn't help his team win games? That's the most retarded thing I've ever heard. But you just keep changing around what I say to try to make yourself think you are right. That's fine

[Snoogans]

Stop exaggerating, Vick didn't run for 200 yard games. The Falcons ran so well because they had a strong line, and a 3 headed rushing attack of Dunn/Duckett/Vick.



Start reading. I said if the LBs ignored Vick, he WOULD run for 200 yards. Guys never did ignore him, and thats what opened up the running for alot of the backs. I didnt say Vick DID run for 200 yard games. LEARN HOW TO READ before you try to tell people what they say

[instrument]

I'm a casual sports watcher but am constantly on news sites, I don't know who this little fella or the stallworth dude are, and I still don't know what pcman jones did but I know all about michael vick.

[Snoogans]

I'm a casual sports watcher but am constantly on news sites, I don't know who this little fella or the stallworth dude are, and I still don't know what pcman jones did but I know all about michael vick.

Leonard Little drove drunk and killed a lady. Then 6 months later was arrested for DWI AGAIN. Didnt miss 1 NFL game cause of it.

Stallworth just recently hit a guy while driving drunk and killed him.

Pacman Jones was arrested probably 11 times, and was suspected of ordering a shooting in Las Vegas that left a man paralyzed

[Snoogans]

Next Vick admitted to personally killing dogs with his own hands. What dog fighters do is kill the dogs that lose in fights via drowning, hanging, etc. So we now have a person who can kill an innocent animal without blinking an eye. .

i completely missed this little lesson in dogfighting. I musta not heard about ANY of this during the 77 straight months of coverage. I fuckin know what he did. That has zero bearing on our discussion of whether or not Vick helped the Falcons win football games, WHICH HE DID.

And I know what fuckin dog fighters do. Ive had the misfortune to be at a dog fight once, so you dont have to explain to me what happened. I dont care. You shouldnt be killing dogs, and you shouldnt be killin people. But you shouldnt be 10000000 times more outraged when someone kills a dog over killing a person. Thats just insane.



And it wasn't an "innocent" animal. It fuckin lost. Can't wastin money trainin a fighter who sucks

[spoon]

its not that i cant understand the outrage. But no, you are wrong. NO ONE WAS NEAR AS OUTRAGED BY LEONARD LITTLE. NO ONE IS NEAR AS OUTRAGED NOW OVER STALLWORTH. NO ONE WAS NEAR AS MAD WHEN CARRUTH DID WHAT HE DID.

The Vick story was on ESPN non stop for like 3 straight weeks when it broke. The ONLY thing that ever got that much attention is steroids.

All the times where an athlete has done something just as awful but to other HUMANS, no one seems to really give a fuck relative to how much they killed Vick for it.

Im not sayin Vick didnt do something fucked up, but seriously, the outrage levels for Vick were like 10000000000 times the levels for even Stallworth right now

On the outrage point, it's two-fold in my mind. First off, no matter how bad the events tied to Donte and Little were, in the end they were accidents. They should be held accountable for those actions no doubt, especially compared to the sentences they received. Vick was not only a willing participant in an awful dog fighting ring, he was the money behind it and pretty much ran the whole thing....at his own fucking property. Not only is this over-the-top stupid, it's heartless.

Which brings my to my second factor, defenseless animals. My entire life I've noticed a few thing sets people off more than most. They happen to be religion, babies/kids, politics and of course animals.

[The Happening]

ok i think i found what you are hung up on. I never said Vick almost carried anyone to the SB. The point I made to you is the team was BETTER with Vick playing QB than when he wasn't. As evidenced by how bad the team was when he got hurt and missed games. Somehow you took that to mean I said if it wasn't for Vick the falcons dont win a game?

And now YOU are making the stretch that because a guy doesn't win the SB, he didn't help his team win games? That's the most retarded thing I've ever heard. But you just keep changing around what I say to try to make yourself think you are right. That's fine Retards are starting to call you retarded.

Let me explain your terrible point to you. You said "forget the stats, it's what happens on the field". Then you keep bringing up a season that happened in 2002-2003, and how VICK ALMOST brought the Falcons to the Super Bowl.

Then I tell you that Vick had both terrible stats, and his team didn't even make the playoffs(forget the Super Bowl) over his last 2 seasons. I'm just talking playoffs. So he had bad stats, and his teams didn't make the playoffs. That's my point. That both in the stat book, and on the field, Vick DIDN'T get it done. So on all accounts he played poorly.

But you bring up "it's about the team, not one player" after I bring up the fact that over his last two seasons his teams didn't make the playoffs. Hence the two sides of the mouth. In one breath you wanna tell us what Vick's teams did on terms of winning, and how much he had to to do with it. But when I bring up the fact that they didn't make the playoffs in his final two seasons, you pull the "it's a team" card, and disperse the blame at your own convenience to people other than Vick. Listen retard, stick to one or the other. Stop making excuses, and be consistent.

[Snoogans]

On the outrage point, it's two-fold in my mind. First off, no matter how bad the events tied to Donte and Little were, in the end they were accidents. They should be held accountable for those actions no doubt, especially compared to the sentences they received. Vick was not only a willing participant in an awful dog fighting ring, he was the money behind it and pretty much ran the whole thing....at his own fucking property. Not only is this over-the-top stupid, it's heartless.

Which brings my to my second factor, defenseless animals. My entire life I've noticed a few thing sets people off more than most. They happen to be religion, babies/kids, politics and of course animals.

Vick also did quite a bit more time than these other guys. And the way he is viewed by regular citizens is way worse than those other guys. Its still not right. Its not an accident when you kill someone and then get ANOTHER DWI

[sailor]

trying to stop the run helped set up the run? illogical.

[Snoogans]

Retards are starting to call you retarded.

Let me explain your terrible point to you. You said "forget the stats, it's what happens on the field". Then you keep bringing up a season that happened in 2002-2003, and how VICK ALMOST brought the Falcons to the Super Bowl.

Then I tell you that Vick had both terrible stats, and his team didn't even make the playoffs(forget the Super Bowl) over his last 2 seasons. I'm just talking playoffs. So he had bad stats, and his teams didn't make the playoffs. That's my point. That both in the stat book, and on the field, Vick DIDN'T get it done. So on all accounts he played poorly.

But you bring up "it's about the team, not one player" after I bring up the fact that over his last two seasons his teams didn't make the playoffs. Hence the two sides of the mouth. In one breath you wanna tell us what Vick's teams did on terms of winning, and how much he had to to do with it. But when I bring up the fact that they didn't make the playoffs in his final two seasons, you pull the "it's a team" card, and disperse the blame at your own convenience to people other than Vick. Listen retard, stick to one or the other. Stop making excuses, and be consistent.
no dick. My point was never VICK carried his team through those games. I said you can see what Vick MEANT TO THE TEAM. STOP TWISTING MY WORDS.
I never said Vick carried them himself. I said the team was alot worse when he got hurt.

And i said if you see the game in GB, you can SEE HOW MUCH HE MEANT TO THE TEAM. I didnt say VICK IS THE ONLY REASON THE FALCONS WON. SO stop

[Snoogans]

trying to stop the run helped set up the run? illogical.

is it, Let me explain.

You have a running QB like Vick. So you cant just sell out on regular runs and leave the middle of the field open. Because of Vick, you have to leave at least 1 guy in spy, which keeps him 5-8 yards off the line, opening up more holes inside the line for hand offs. Get it?

Yea of course you dont. Thats why im in this dumb arguement in the first place

[The Happening]

Leonard Little drove drunk and killed a lady. Then 6 months later was arrested for DWI AGAIN. Didnt miss 1 NFL game cause of it.
Thanks for yet another example of you not knowing what you are talking about.

Little was suspended 8 games for his manslaughter conviction. And people still protest Little to this day, some 10 years later.

Little got the DWI 6 YEARS later.

Your credibility has hit Raphael Palmiero depths.

[The Happening]

is it, Let me explain.

You have a running QB like Vick. So you cant just sell out on regular runs and leave the middle of the field open. Because of Vick, you have to leave at least 1 guy in spy, which keeps him 5-8 yards off the line, opening up more holes inside the line for hand offs. Get it?

Yea of course you dont. Thats why im in this dumb arguement in the first place Dude you're an idiot. I'm actually starting to feel bad for you.

[Snoogans]

Thanks for yet another example of you not knowing what you are talking about.

Little was suspended 8 games for his manslaughter conviction. And people still protest Little to this day, some 10 years later.

Little got the DWI 6 YEARS later.

Your credibility has hit Raphael Palmiero depths.

he wasnt going to be suspended until he got the second DWI if I remember right. And im goin off memory. And yea so what they protest to this day. NO ONE HEARS ABOUT IT. All you hear abou tis vick. That was my point. My arguement with you is something else


And explain to me, mr football genius, how a running QB doesnt open up space on the field? Look at what McNabb does against the giants because they cant get to him.

You are fuckin INSANE if you think Vick didnt help open shit up for everyone else, because they had to account for him on every play. You just dont know how to play football. Its a pretty common defensive strategy to keep LBs out of the box on running QBs. Its also part of why the coaches started using SS's to help on run support. Cause they are faster and can stick with guys in the open field. Go play some football, you will learn something

[The Happening]

he wasnt going to be suspended until he got the second DWI if I remember right. And im goin off memory. And yea so what they protest to this day. NO ONE HEARS ABOUT IT. All you hear abou tis vick. That was my point. My arguement with you is something else


And explain to me, mr football genius, how a running QB doesnt open up space on the field? Look at what McNabb does against the giants because they cant get to him.

You are fuckin INSANE if you think Vick didnt help open shit up for everyone else, because they had to account for him on every play. You just dont know how to play football. Its a pretty common defensive strategy to keep LBs out of the box on running QBs. Its also part of why the coaches started using SS's to help on run support. Cause they are faster and can stick with guys in the open field. Go play some football, you will learn something
Little got suspended 8 games for his manslaughter conviction. He didn't get his DWI until 6 YEARS LATER. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Go yell at the media for what's shown. But if you had any sense, you would realize that what's shown on the TV, isn't always a fair representation of what's going on. It's 10 years later, and people are still protesting what Leonard Little did. But because it isn't shown on ESPN, or the media coverage doesn't show it, it doesn't exist? Dude, you are a retard!

Football 101: The pass sets up the run. A running QB DOES NOT, open up the run for his running backs. A good running QB(What Vick was) poses a challenge to defensive coordinators. But once they are figured out, the running QB poses no threat. Why? Because he can't pass. And the rushing a QB does, doesn't help out the teams running backs. You are a complete dumbass.

[spoon]

Im sorry. I forgot that stats mean everything, and what actually happens on the field with teammates and shit is just garbage.

how bout the fact that the falcons probably dropped a good 8 passes a game for vick. Price was shit. Most of them were shit. Thats why he ended up throwin to crumpler 50 times a game, even if he was double covered. Cause no one else would catch it.

Trust me I watched plenty of his games. I watched him set the NCAA freshman passing efficiency rating in college, right through him in the NFL. In the NFL, he was not a good passing QB. But he didnt have much help either. He wasnt shit. And his legs broke games open. More importantly, his teammates genuinely seemed to like playing with him. And the year he broke his leg in the preseason, the same team that almost made a SB with him was awful.

There is something to that. Something more than numbers on a piece of paper.

Honestly I think u both have decent points and some exaggerations. Was Vick the passer you claim he is freshman year? No fucking way, he dumped and dinked just as he HAD to in the NFL. Not bc his passes were dropped, but bc his arm was an inaccurate cannon. He not only can't hit receivers in stride/in routes, he has absolutely no touch.

However, the line for the Falcons was dirt. Vick made the D play such a different game there, it made the o line and the Rbs look much better. Vick pretty much occupied all the LBs bc of his legs and common short passing game. The team he played with was pretty much all new from the super bowl team as well. Hence the reason they had such a high pick when he entered the league. They played better with him, but the game and style he played wasn't going to last that long due to his body breaking down from nfl hits.

[Snoogans]

Honestly I think u both have decent points and some exaggerations. Was Vick the passer you claim he is freshman year? No fucking way, he dumped and dinked just as he HAD to in the NFL. Not bc his passes were dropped, but bc his arm was an inaccurate cannon. He not only can't hit receivers in stride/in routes, he has absolutely no touch.

However, the line for the Falcons was dirt. Vick made the D play such a different game there, it made the o line and the Rbs look much better. Vick pretty much occupied all the LBs bc of his legs and common short passing game. The team he played with was pretty much all new from the super bowl team as well. Hence the reason they had such a high pick when he entered the league. They played better with him, but the game and style he played wasn't going to last that long due to his body breaking down from nfl hits.

I agree he wasnt a good QB in the pros. I already said those exact words. but he wasnt shit either. Yes, he was inaccurate, but even passes he would put RIGH TIN THAT BUM PRICE's HAND PRICE WOULD DROP. And then use some bullshit excuse about the lefty spin fucks him up. BULLSHIT. Steve Young never had receivers complain about that.

And with a salary cap, the falcons arent gonna give vick all that money if he was useless to him

[TheMojoPin]

Guys, lay off the personal attacks. Is Michael Vick really worth that kind of vitriol?

[PhishHead]

Guys, lay off the personal attacks. Is Michael Vick really worth that kind of vitriol?

I only see one person personally attacking others .

:drunk:

[Snoogans]

I only see one person personally attacking others .

:drunk:

i think i used long winded bullshit to describe his posts. I guess mojo could mean that.

It doesnt matter, cause im better than Mojo anyway.

[TheMojoPin]

I only see one person personally attacking others .

:drunk:

That's because your eyes are filled with tears, Mr. Dashboard.

[Snoogans]

Guys, lay off the personal attacks. Is Michael Vick really worth that kind of vitriol?

no. Its the loser dogs that couldnt win who deserve the anger

[TheMojoPin]

no. Its the loser dogs that couldnt win who deserve the anger

I agree. Look how Dawg made Cheese cry.

[PhishHead]

That's because your eyes are filled with tears, Mr. Dashboard.

PERSONAL ATTACK!!!

That is your name by the name, we all know your love for Dashboard Confessional.

[TheMojoPin]

PERSONAL ATTACK!!!

That is your name by the name, we all know your love for Dashboard Confessional.

I WILL STAND FOR THIS SLANDER NO MORE.

I hope your evil radio show NEVER comes back!

[Snoogans]

I agree. Look how Dawg made Cheese cry.

WOOF

[Snoogans]

I WILL STAND FOR THIS SLANDER NO MORE.

I hope your evil radio show NEVER comes back!

I always wondered why you asked for so many dashboard songs when you were pretending you hated them.

Me and Phish would laugh "oh there goes mojo again, pretending he isnt gay and then asking for gayness"

[PhishHead]

I WILL STAND FOR THIS SLANDER NO MORE.

I hope your evil radio show NEVER comes back!

but but but
what about our plans to watch home movies and frisky dingo together??

[PhishHead]

I always wondered why you asked for so many dashboard songs when you were pretending you hated them.

Me and Phish would laugh "oh there goes mojo again, pretending he isnt gay and then asking for gayness"

It was kind of weird, trying some reverse psychology on us?

Mojo knew their whole albums as well so weird.

[TheMojoPin]

So many lies! I HATE YOU BOTH!

I hope you end up homeless and begging for food outside of BDC's bakery.

[Snoogans]

So many lies! I HATE YOU BOTH!

I hope you end up homeless and begging for food outside of BDC's bakery.

ANYTHING that lets me find out where that bakery is, im fine with. I NEED TO FIND THAT BAKERY

[spoon]

And with a salary cap, the falcons arent gonna give vick all that money if he was useless to him

Let's be honest on this one, he drew tons of fans and sold lot's of merch. That had a LOT to do with it.

[The Happening]

Let's be honest on this one, he drew tons of fans and sold lot's of merch. That had a LOT to do with it. Vick became more of a marketing symbol than a productive NFL player. The Falcons marketed Vick very well to one of the largest african american fan bases in all of sports(Atlanta). Vick was so loved by the black community in Atlanta, that the Falcons were considering the safe pick(Darren McFadden) over drafting the white QB(Matt Ryan) who the fans may not embrace. However, they understood that sports fans, no matter what color, will love any player who plays for their team as long as they are productive and win, no matter what color they are.

[Snoogans]

Vick became more of a marketing symbol than a productive NFL player. The Falcons marketed Vick very well to one of the largest african american fan bases in all of sports(Atlanta). Vick was so loved by the black community in Atlanta, that the Falcons were considering the safe pick(Darren McFadden) over drafting the white QB(Matt Ryan) who the fans may not embrace. However, they understood that sports fans, no matter what color, will love any player who plays for their team as long as they are productive and win, no matter what color they are.

somebody forgot to mention this to yankee fans

[Snoogans]

L

Football 101: The pass sets up the run. A running QB DOES NOT, open up the run for his running backs. A good running QB(What Vick was) poses a challenge to defensive coordinators. But once they are figured out, the running QB poses no threat. Why? Because he can't pass. And the rushing a QB does, doesn't help out the teams running backs. You are a complete dumbass.

In general they set each other up. but you are blind if you think forcing LBs to drop back and spy does indeed CREATE MORE SPACE IN THE FIELD. Those LBs have to stand about 5-7 yards off the line.

And if they pose no threat, why can McNabb and westbrook keep running wild on teh giants who see them twice a year for fuckin years now. When you have a running QB, the adjustments the coordinator makes to stop that runnin QB open up the run inside. If you dont, you send guys to stop the run, the QB breaks contain and there is NO ONE THERE TO STOP HIM. THATS THE POINT OF IT. You are so insanely wrong about what Vick did for that offense. Just stop now

[TripleSkeet]

Football 101: The pass sets up the run. A running QB DOES NOT, open up the run for his running backs. A good running QB(What Vick was) poses a challenge to defensive coordinators. But once they are figured out, the running QB poses no threat. Why? Because he can't pass. And the rushing a QB does, doesn't help out the teams running backs. You are a complete dumbass.

Thats funny. Every football analysis Ive ever seen says the run sets up the pass. If you can gain good yardage on the run that sets up the play action pass. Im pretty sure thats how Dallas won their 3 Super Bowl in the 90's. And what helped John Elway win his 2.

A QB that can run is always a threat, because he keeps the defense honest. If the threat of the run is there, the defense cannot blitz often. So the QB has time to sit back and pass, and when they blitz he takes off and they get burned. It doesnt always work, especially if they arent completeing the passes, but it does work more often then not.

Believe me, Ive been watching it for about 15 of the last 20 years in this town.

[Snoogans]

Thats funny. Every football analysis Ive ever seen says the run sets up the pass. If you can gain good yardage on the run that sets up the play action pass. Im pretty sure thats how Dallas won their 3 Super Bowl in the 90's. And what helped John Elway win his 2.

A QB that can run is always a threat, because he keeps the defense honest. If the threat of the run is there, the defense cannot blitz often. So the QB has time to sit back and pass, and when they blitz he takes off and they get burned. It doesnt always work, especially if they arent completeing the passes, but it does work more often then not.

Believe me, Ive been watching it for about 15 of the last 20 years in this town.

Thank you. And I love the part about the easy adjustments to stop it. Funny no one really ever stopped Vick from running, and maybe the best defense in the league over the last 10 years cant figure out how to stop McNabb, even when we had a coach that was with the Eagles on our defense.

[sailor]

Thank you. And I love the part about the easy adjustments to stop it. Funny no one really ever stopped Vick from running, and maybe the best defense in the league over the last 10 years cant figure out how to stop McNabb, even when we had a coach that was with the Eagles on our defense.

i don't think he agreed with you. he just said the threat of vick running should help his pass stats (can't imagine how shitty they'd be if he didn't run).

[Snoogans]

i don't think he agreed with you. he just said the threat of vick running should help his pass stats (can't imagine how shitty they'd be if he didn't run).

Yea but it helps open up everything. If the LBs cant come up, and have to stand back 5 yards, its gonna open space for the backs too. Thats why McNabb and Westbrook go crazy on the giants. McNabb hitting receivers is not usually what wins for Philly. its gettin space in the middle of the field for westbrook, and then for some reason LJ Smith also decides to show up those days. Trust me, a mobile QB opens up holes for anything and are a nightmare to stop. Thats why teams continue to try it, even with shitty guys like Vince Young. Cause if you can make it work, its deadly

[The Happening]

Thats funny. Every football analysis Ive ever seen says the run sets up the pass. If you can gain good yardage on the run that sets up the play action pass. Im pretty sure thats how Dallas won their 3 Super Bowl in the 90's. And what helped John Elway win his 2.

A QB that can run is always a threat, because he keeps the defense honest. If the threat of the run is there, the defense cannot blitz often. So the QB has time to sit back and pass, and when they blitz he takes off and they get burned. It doesnt always work, especially if they arent completeing the passes, but it does work more often then not.

Believe me, Ive been watching it for about 15 of the last 20 years in this town. Yes the run sets up the pass. Thanks for that. Helps a ton! But guess what? The pass sets up the run as well. This is a reciprocal concept. Come on people!

The idea that snoogans thinks that Vick's running as a QB opens up the run for his runningbacks is retarded. If anything, it makes it harder for his runningbacks to run, when opposing defenses put 8 men in the box and bring up a safety to key on it. Now Vick's running was effective to an extent, nobody said it wasn't. But once it's figured out, Vick has nothing to counter it. Teams with fast LB's(Bears, Pats, etc) always shutdown Vick easily. Plus he fumbled a TON as a running QB. Now Vick's running did open up the pass for the falcons. The only problem is Vick couldn't pass!

[Snoogans]

Yes the run sets up the pass. Thanks for that. Helps a ton! But guess what? The pass sets up the run as well. This is a reciprocal concept. Come on people!

The idea that snoogans thinks that Vick's running as a QB opens up the run for his runningbacks is retarded. If anything, it makes it harder for his runningbacks to run, when opposing defenses put 8 men in the box and bring up a safety to key on it. Now Vick's running was effective to an extent, nobody said it wasn't. But once it's figured out, Vick has nothing to counter it. Teams with fast LB's(Bears, Pats, etc) always shutdown Vick easily. Plus he fumbled a TON as a running QB. Now Vick's running did open up the pass for the falcons. The only problem is Vick couldn't pass!

NO. THATS NOT WHAT YOU DO TO STOP A RUNNING QB. you put all those guys in the box, you have no contain on the outside. What you do to stop a running Qb is generally, you keep your middle LB in spy. That keeps him back about 5-7 yards, so he doesnt get caught in the line or grabbed by a blocking back. he has to stay back so he can follow vick along the line of scrimmage. That gives a good, quick back, much like Warrick Dunn was, an extra 2 or 3 yards up the middle to find a lane and make a cut. A running QB doesnt bring guys into the box, it takes one out. Thats why safties started to come up in run support, and then you can beat a team deep. it opens so many holes. You are completely wrong here, bro. you dont spy a QB by gettin up to the line, that would defeat the whole purpose of it.

YOU ARE FUCKIN WRONG

[hanso]

If/when he comes back.
It will be somethine else to see him by the "dog pound".
When his team plays the Cleveland Browns

[TeeBone]

http://images.cafepress.com/jitcrunch.aspx?bG9hZD1ibGFuayxibGFuazo3X0ZfYzIzLmp wZ3xsb2FkPUwxLGh0dHA6Ly9pbWFnZXM3LmNhZmVwcmVzcy5jb 20vaW1hZ2UvNzI3NDgzN180MDB4NDAwLmpwZ3x8c2NhbGU9TDE sMTI3LDY0LFdoaXRlfGNvbXBvc2U9YmxhbmssTDEsQWRkLDE3M SwxMDJ8Y3A9cmVzdWx0LGJsYW5rfHNjYWxlPXJlc3VsdCwwLDQ 4MCxXaGl0ZXxjb21wcmVzc2lvbj05NXw=

[Ogre]

NO. THATS NOT WHAT YOU DO TO STOP A RUNNING QB. you put all those guys in the box, you have no contain on the outside. What you do to stop a running Qb is generally, you keep your middle LB in spy. That keeps him back about 5-7 yards, so he doesnt get caught in the line or grabbed by a blocking back. he has to stay back so he can follow vick along the line of scrimmage. That gives a good, quick back, much like Warrick Dunn was, an extra 2 or 3 yards up the middle to find a lane and make a cut. A running QB doesnt bring guys into the box, it takes one out. Thats why safties started to come up in run support, and then you can beat a team deep. it opens so many holes. You are completely wrong here, bro. you dont spy a QB by gettin up to the line, that would defeat the whole purpose of it.

YOU ARE FUCKIN WRONG

Snoogs is right

The key to being able to stop a running QB like Vick or McNabb (back in the day) is to have corners that can play man coverage. When the field gets stretched from sideline to sideline in a spread offense from the gun and you have a WLB spy on the QB then there is no over the top help for the corners from the safeties. They have a responsibilty with run support.

Vick is the NFL Leader Career Rushing yards per attempt avg @ 7.3 per. The four full seasons he played he was over 100 attempts in each season. Each of those seasons he lead the NFL in YPA. The downside was his passing as everyone knows. His career QB rating was a paltry 75.7. So you feeling pretty good about your chances against the pass when you paly him. I'd say yes.

Michael Vick has a career Net/Yds per attempt of 5.40. That ranks 144th with the likes of Kordell Stewart, Bubby Brister, Tony Banks and Tim Couch. He never averaged over 192 yds a game in any season he played, with his career average at 155 yds per game.

He averaged 207.6 yds from scrimmage per game for his career.

All that said, if he could have been more accurate and productive as a passer, but still be the "in space" threat that everyone raves about; then maybe he would be worth all the slobbering and hype. If all you have to worry about is 155 yds per game from this guys arm, I say let the fucker run around like an idiot.

His wheels are his most valuable asset and they are the first to go. He is an average NFL QB with a different skill set that gets you to the same place of 3k combined yds per season.
Nothing special. he had his ESPN highlight reel moments. He won one road playoff game in Green Bay and that was about it. It was all sizzle and no steak.

He won't be worth the headache. Yeah Yeah Wildcat Schmildecat.

[Snoogans]

Snoogs is right



Just to make sure everyone saw this

[The Happening]

Just to make sure everyone saw this The amount of awfulness that you've shown in this thread can never be described. Wait, let me give it a shot. Remember Jack Black's performance in " I Still Know What You Did Last Summer "? Yea, that's how you have performed in this thread. From getting all the facts wrong with what happened in Leonard Little's situation. To making up new NFL concepts that have never taken place. Your brutalness could only be topped by a sequel to " The Happening ".

Real quick to those drooling over Michael Vick's rushing ability. Now he was the greatest rushing QB of all-time. But rushing the ball is the running backs job. The QB's job is to pass the ball, thus opening up things for the rest of the offense, and not having a one dimensional team. Why did Vick rush so much? Because he couldn't pass. Also, as a rushing QB, Vick fumbled the ball 55 times, to just 21 rushing TD's. When QB's get fumbles credited to them, it's usually from either a bad exchange between the QB and his center, or the QB getting sacked by the opposing defense. Vick got his from running the ball. So as a running QB Vick was -34 in the TD/turnover rate.

Rushing QB's are always overrated, and they NEVER win a championship. People just love things that are different. Another example of how overrated the running QB is, is Vince Young. Everybody went nuts about how great Vince Young was when he first started with the Titans. His team was winning, and everyone gave Young the credit. He was called a winner, and fans drooled over him. Yet in his career Young has thrown 22 TD's to his 32 INT's. And he's only thrown for 4964 yds. As a rusher, Young has rushed for 10 TD's while fumbling 24 times. When asked about his stats, analyst would go with the " He just wins " line. Yet Rex Grossman, who was the QB of a team who went to the superbowl, was killed by the media. Why didn't he get the " He just wins " label?

The truth is Michael Vick was a mediocre NFL QB. He was always good for an exciting play that would air on sportscenter, and that's all fans wanted to see. The average sports fan is an idiot. These are the same people who vote terribly in all-star games in baseball, think a slam dunk coincides with a player being good in basketball, and think players like Michael Vick, Vince Young, and Alex Smith are good NFL QB's.

[sailor]

Rushing QB's are always overrated, and they NEVER win a championship.

now you've gone to far. steve young. and randall cunningham's teams have done well over the years as well, albeit without winning a title.

[Ogre]

now you've gone to far. steve young. and randall cunningham's teams have done well over the years as well, albeit without winning a title.

Because both of those guys were deadly downfield passing or could burn you with the run. I think the Minnesota team that lost in the NFC Champioship to the Falcons could have kept Elway and the Broncos from repeating that year. The Vikes just simply choked. Steve Youngs #'s and Championship game appearances speak for themselves. If not for Aikman and company he might of had a couple more Lombardi's. So runners can win, just the ones that can run and are deadly downfield are rare.

Shoulda Coulda Woulda...this guy's time has passed.

[sailor]

i totally agree. i just thought your use or "never" was too much. if you want to say that about a qb whose main (only?) weapon is his running game, sure.

given that i'd still love to see the option run more in the pros.

[underdog]

and think players like Michael Vick, Vince Young, and Alex Smith are good NFL QB's.

I don't think anyone ever thought Alex Smith was going to be a good NFL QB, other than SF.

[Snoogans]

I don't think anyone ever thought Alex Smith was going to be a good NFL QB, other than SF.

Im pretty sure they didnt think it, either

[Ogre]

i totally agree. i just thought your use or "never" was too much. if you want to say that about a qb whose main (only?) weapon is his running game, sure.

given that i'd still love to see the option run more in the pros.

never say never

[cougarjake13]

Im pretty sure they didnt think it, either

wait til tebow gets to the nfl


it ll be alex smith part 2

[The Happening]

wait til tebow gets to the nfl


it ll be alex smith part 2 Tebow is an even worse passing QB then Smith. He will probably get drafted as a wildcat QB in the late 1st to mid 2nd round(Like Pat White was). Although I think the wildcat offense will have a short life span in the NFL.

Speaking of Pat White, I saw J. A. Adande on TV go with the angle that Pat White wasn't getting a fair shake at being a full-time QB in the NFL because he was black. As if this is 1950! Fuck, owners don't care what color their QB is as long as he can play. Pat White is a poor paser, that's why he isn't going to get a full-time gig. He was a dink and dunk paser at West Virginia who's main weapon was his legs.

Here's where I love Adande's logic: Pat White isn't getting a fair shake because he's black, but black starting QB's like Donovan McNabb, JaMarcus Rusell, Jason Campbell, Byron Leftwich, Daunte Culpepper, and David Garrard are. So now NFL teams are being racist about who they are being racist about? I wish someone would have thrown the names of Scott Frost, Eric Crouch, Drew Bennett, and Matt Jones at Adande. Who are they? They are white QB's in college who were switched to WR in the NFL because they weren't good enough passers. Sometimes minorities with a voice try and make up some kind of racial controversy because they missed out in making a difference in the past when racial struggles were real.

[CountryBob]

Damn - Pat White was money in college. Sucks that he might never make much of his pro career due to his size and passing probs.

[The Happening]

Damn - Pat White was money in college. Sucks that he might never make much of his pro career due to his size and passing probs. I think he will have a solid NFL career as a WR/H-back/returner.

[The Happening]

now you've gone to far. steve young. and randall cunningham's teams have done well over the years as well, albeit without winning a title.
Young and Cunningham coud actually throw the ball. Young was a passing QB who could run. While Cunningham was a running QB who could pass. Young actually won a title as a starting QB with the 49rs, although I think Young is overrated as a player. Infact, I think Randall Cunningham is the better QB of the two. Young just had much better weapons.

So once again I'll say that a run first QB will NEVER win a title in the NFL. This isn't college. Besides, name the last rushing QB who even made it to the SuperBowl. And remember, McNabb and McNair were passing QB's by the time they made it to the SuperBowl.

[sailor]

Young and Cunningham coud actually throw the ball. Young was a passing QB who could run. While Cunningham was a running QB who could pass. Young actually won a title as a starting QB with the 49rs, although I think Young is overrated as a player. Infact, I think Randall Cunningham is the better QB of the two. Young just had much better weapons.

So once again I'll say that a run first QB will NEVER win a title in the NFL. This isn't college. Besides, name the last rushing QB who even made it to the SuperBowl. And remember, McNabb and McNair were passing QB's by the time they made it to the SuperBowl.

that's why there's a period after young in my post. i was referring to cunningham as not having won a title.

and you're changing your conditions from your original post, i'm not going to argue against a moving target. those were two qb's who had the run as a very significant part of their game, regardless of how well they passed the ball, and they did well for themselves.

[The Happening]

that's why there's a period after young in my post. i was referring to cunningham as not having won a title.

and you're changing your conditions from your original post, i'm not going to argue against a moving target. those were two qb's who had the run as a very significant part of their game, regardless of how well they passed the ball, and they did well for themselves.
No, my conditions have been pretty consistent. Rushing QB's don't make it to, or win the SuperBowl.

Steve Young could run. But his biggest weapon was his arm. Randall Cunningham was a rushing QB, and he never got to a SuperBowl. Was he a productive NFL QB? Yes. Why? Because he could pass, and was a threat to do so. Randall Cunningham was the RARE exception of a rushing QB who was consistently prodictive(again, because he was a solid passer).

Their is a difference between a QB having rushing ability as a part of his game, and having rushing ability as the only part of his game.

[hanso]

Maybe he will play for the Browns.
Where he could support 'the dog pound'.

[sailor]

regarding vick's possible suspension, t.o. offered up this gem: It's almost like kicking a dead horse in the ground.

[cougarjake13]

Maybe he will play for the Browns.
Where he could support 'the dog pound'.



thatd be awesome but would never happen

[Ogre]

So today it happens. The Ol Commish takes the Kabash off of Vick, sorta. My bet is he ends up playing in Orlando of the UFL. I do not think any NFL franchise will sign him. I think he does deserve a second chance. I still think is an average QB, but he still is a great athlete and could probably help some teams. I just do not think he will get the second chance. Too big of a P.R. headache. Talk about turning a camp upside down. It would be worse than the Farve fiasco with the Jets last year. His arrival the way that it happened totally was a disruption to the Jets camp. That would pale in comparison to the shew that it would be for the team that takes that gamble on Vick. If anybody does it it would be Al Davis or Jerry Jones. Don't see anybody else having the balls.

[ShowerBench]

Below are details of this filthy scumbag's hobbies.

If Vick is "entitled" to his old job, why haven't we seen OJ with announcing gigs and in commercials?

The NFL isn't required to reinstate this piece of shit. He is only entitled morally and legally to being let out of prison.

Should a drug offender get a clean slate? Sure. This? I hope the useless garbage gets Theismanned his first game out.

Link to photo of one of Vick's dog's (photo removed by moderator) (http://www.usanimalprotection.org/gypsy100.jpg)

The report, dated Aug. 28, 2008, says, "Vick, Peace and Phillips thought it was funny to watch the pit bull dogs belonging to Bad Newz Kennels injure or kill the other dogs."

The report also states in mid-April of 2007, Vick, Peace and Phillips hung approximately three dogs who did not perform well in a "rolling session," which indicates the readiness of a dog to fight. According to the report, the three men hung the dogs "by placing a nylon cord over a 2 X 4 that was nailed to two trees located next to the big shed. They also drowned approximately three dogs by putting the dogs' heads in a five gallon bucket of water."

Vick initially told authorities "while he assisted Phillips and Peace in the killing of the dogs, he did not actually kill the dogs," but "helped Phillips toss several dogs to the side," according to the report.

However, the report says Vick took back that statement when he failed a polygraph test. "Vick failed the examination as it related to the killing of the dogs in April 2007. Ultimately, Vick recanted his previous statement wherein he said he was not actually involved in the killing of six to eight dogs. ... Vick admitted taking part in the actual hanging of the dogs."

The dogs were killed by shooting, hanging, electrocution and drowning, and in at least one instance, according to one of the witnesses, when Vick and Phillips killed a red pit bull by “slamming it to the ground several times before it died, breaking the dog’s back or neck.”

[underdog]

I can't believe there's not already a thread on Michael Vick.

[sailor]

I can't believe there's not already a thread on Michael Vick.

have at it.

[Furtherman]

I can't believe there's not already a thread on Michael Vick.

There is, but this is a topic they're talking about on the air right now.

[brettmojo]

Ohhhhhh let him play the pigskin! He paid his debt to society by eating three square meals a day, working out all day, watching TV and playing basketball in the workout yard for almost two years. HOW MUCH MORE DO YOU WANT HIM TO SUFFER?????

[TheMojoPin]

If Vick is "entitled" to his old job, why haven't we seen OJ with announcing gigs and in commercials?

Because OJ is in jail. Plus he was accused of murdering two people.

[underdog]

There is, but this is a topic they're talking about on the air right now.

I thought you of all people would understand me.

[Furtherman]

I thought you of all people would understand me.

I'm still learning the ropes.

[ShowerBench]

Because OJ is in jail. Plus he was accused of murdering two people.

Accused and acquitted. I thought we were "entitled" to return to our previous status once we serve our time (or are acquitted).

OJ would have never gotten near the NFL again.

[TheMojoPin]

Accused and acquitted. I thought we were "entitled" to return to our previous status once we serve our time (or are acquitted).

OJ would have never gotten near the NFL again.

Who is saying Vick is "entitled" to playing again? Nobody has to sign him.

You're talking like he HAS to be hired to play football.

And Vick and OJ's (alleged) crimes really are not comparable at all.

[ShowerBench]

Who is saying Vick is "entitled" to playing again? Nobody has to sign him.

You're talking like he HAS to be hired to play football.

And Vick and OJ's (alleged) crimes really are not comparable at all.

I'm only talking about the NFL decision to reinstate him. Defenders are implying there is some principle that says anyone who commits any kind of crime is entitled to their previous position or status once the legal sentence is served.

It's a cowardly argument. What they really mean is they want to see him play again, or they don't see this crime as all that bad (but don't want to admit it) so they are going to use some BS nonexistent principle to back the NFL decision.

[Snoogans]

How accurate do you think Vick would be if they played with dogskins instead of pigskins?

[TheMojoPin]

I'm only talking about the NFL decision to reinstate him. Defenders are implying there is some principle that says anyone who commits any kind of crime is entitled to their previous position or status once the legal sentence is served.

It's a cowardly argument. What they really mean is they want to see him play again, or they don't see this crime as all that bad (but don't want to admit it) so they are going to use some BS nonexistent principle to back the NFL decision.

Why shouldn't the NFL reinstate him if he can still play, teams want to sign him and fans want to see him play? Nobody needs to whitewash anything: it would be stupid and pointless to ban him from the game over this. If everyone though it was such a horrible thing he wouldn't be hired. Not everyone thinks that, so he'll play. What's the big deal? It's not like he's getting this because of what he did. He's coming back because he's a decent player and teams want him and there's no rule in football along the lines of "THOU SHALT BE FOREVER BANNED IF YE SMITE THINE HOUNDS."

[TheMojoPin]

How accurate do you think Vick would be if they played with dogskins instead of pigskins?

Not very. He'd run it out of bounds every play and dunk it in the Gatorade cooler.

[ShowerBench]

Why shouldn't the NFL reinstate him if he can still play, teams want to sign him and fans want to see him play? Nobody needs to whitewash anything: it would be stupid and pointless to ban him from the game over this. If everyone though it was such a horrible thing he wouldn't be hired. Not everyone thinks that, so he'll play. What's the big deal? It's not like he's getting this because of what he did. He's coming back because he's a decent player and teams want him and there's no rule in football along the lines of "THOU SHALT BE FOREVER BANNED IF YE SMITE THINE HOUNDS."

The NFL can do what it wants.If they think they will make more money off him than they'll lose by reinstatement, then that's the decision they will make

I'm saying that the refrain that "he's done his time, therefore he should play" is bullshit because there is no such grand principle. It depends on the crime and the time. People will disagree over whether two years was enough for this piece of shit, or even if it was enough prison time whether that means he should be accepted into the NFL or on a team.

You're right: he's coming back because teams want him and decided money is to be made. The same calculus made by media companies who fire or keep radio talk show hosts after a controversy. But nobody should pretend there is any principle behind it (you aren't pretending but almost everyone who called in the show today did).

[Snoogans]

The NFL can do what it wants.If they think they will make more money off him than they'll lose by reinstatement, then that's the decision they will make

I'm saying that the refrain that "he's done his time, therefore he should play" is bullshit because there is no such grand principle. It depends on the crime and the time. People will disagree over whether two years was enough for this piece of shit, or even if it was enough prison time whether that means he should be accepted into the NFL or on a team.

You're right: he's coming back because teams want him and decided money is to be made. The same calculus made by media companies who fire or keep radio talk show hosts after a controversy. But nobody should pretend there is any principle behind it (you aren't pretending but almost everyone who called in the show today did).

I love how much more mad you are that a guy killed dogs but you dont seem to give a shit about the people who killed people and are allowed back.

[brettmojo]

I love how much more mad you are that a guy killed dogs but you dont seem to give a shit about the people who killed people and are allowed back.
No one cares about other people who they don't know. It's a lot easier to relate feeling to someone killing animals because pretty much everyone has had a pet and relate that feeling to caring about another animal and feeling disdain for someone killing them.

[TheMojoPin]

The NFL can do what it wants.If they think they will make more money off him than they'll lose by reinstatement, then that's the decision they will make

I'm saying that the refrain that "he's done his time, therefore he should play" is bullshit because there is no such grand principle. It depends on the crime and the time. People will disagree over whether two years was enough for this piece of shit, or even if it was enough prison time whether that means he should be accepted into the NFL or on a team.

You're right: he's coming back because teams want him and decided money is to be made. The same calculus made by media companies who fire or keep radio talk show hosts after a controversy. But nobody should pretend there is any principle behind it (you aren't pretending but almost everyone who called in the show today did).

Who is saying he "should play" like you're implying? You're confusing "should be able to play" with "should play" as if anyone has to feel obligated to sign him just because he wants to play. And yes, the NFL should reinstate him because they have no reason not to. As Snoogans pointed out, players who have caused the deaths of people are allowed to play, so to take a stand over a guy killing some dogs would be pretty hypocritical.

[Snoogans]

No one cares about other people who they don't know. It's a lot easier to relate feeling to someone killing animals because pretty much everyone has had a pet and relate that feeling to caring about another animal and feeling disdain for someone killing them.

So what. It doesn't make it a worse crime. In fact legally, killing dogs is to killin humans as jaywalking is to carjacking. The legal system doesn't give a fuck about dogs.

[TheMojoPin]

No one cares about other people who they don't know. It's a lot easier to relate feeling to someone killing animals because pretty much everyone has had a pet and relate that feeling to caring about another animal and feeling disdain for someone killing them.

That doesn't make any sense. We all know people, too.

[underdog]

Accused and acquitted. I thought we were "entitled" to return to our previous status once we serve our time (or are acquitted).

OJ would have never gotten near the NFL again.

He wouldn't have gotten near the NFL again because he was 48 years old.

[brettmojo]

That doesn't make any sense. We all know people, too.
We don't associate other people with the people we know in our own lives that we care about. But we do associate other animals with our own pets.

[underdog]

So what. It doesn't make it a worse crime. In fact legally, killing dogs is to killin humans as jaywalking is to carjacking. The legal system doesn't give a fuck about dogs.

Unless you're Mike Vick.

[Ritalin]

Who is saying he "should play" like you're implying? You're confusing "should be able to play" with "should play" as if anyone has to feel obligated to sign him just because he wants to play. And yes, the NFL should reinstate him because they have no reason not to. As Snoogans pointed out, players who have caused the deaths of people are allowed to play, so to take a stand over a guy killing some dogs would be pretty hypocritical.

The NFL makes it's decision whether or not reinstate him based on one metric: is it good for business or bad for business. That's the complete extent of their thinking, and that could mean "we brought him into the office to ask him about this and he lied to us and that's bad for business". I'm not saying I agree with it, but that's the only determining factor as far as I can see.

[TheMojoPin]

We don't associate other people with the people we know in our own lives that we care about. But we do associate other animals with our own pets.

You think people never think what it would be like if they hear about situation where someone dies or is killed if it was someone they know?

[TheMojoPin]

The NFL makes it's decision whether or not reinstate him based on one metric: is it good for business or bad for business. That's the complete extent of their thinking, and that could mean "we brought him into the office to ask him about this and he lied to us and that's bad for business". I'm not saying I agree with it, but that's the only determining factor as far as I can see.

Of course.

[Snoogans]

He wouldn't have gotten near the NFL again because he was 48 years old.

So what?

http://thecollegefootballreview.com/images/MiscHumorous/JeffGeorgeColts.jpg

[sailor]

i think it's silly comparing animals and people. of course we care more about people. if you don't think so, imagine if some athlete was kidnapping people and forcing them to fight to the death in his basement, for fun. that would be the human equivalent of the vick story and that athlete would be the most reviled athlete ever.

after schilling, bonds and t.o.

[TheMojoPin]

i think it's silly comparing animals and people. of course we care more about people. if you don't think so, imagine if some athlete was kidnapping people and forcing them to fight to the death in his basement, for fun. that would be the human equivalent of the vick story and that athlete would be the most reviled athlete ever.

I'm pretty sure this is what Tom Brady does for kicks.

[brettmojo]

You think people never think what it would be like if they hear about situation where someone dies or is killed if it was someone they know?
Only if it happens like in your neighborhood, or city. Or on some highway that you or loved ones travel down everyday. Anyone who will stretch it enough to liken every tragic story on the news every night to somehow make it about them is an ass.

[Snoogans]

I'm pretty sure this is what Hottub does for kicks.

fixed

[Ritalin]

i think it's silly comparing animals and people. of course we care more about people. if you don't think so, imagine if some athlete was kidnapping people and forcing them to fight to the death in his basement, for fun. that would be the human equivalent of the vick story and that athlete would be the most reviled athlete ever.

after schilling, bonds and t.o.

don't forget Manny.

It's just manny injecting manny.

[TheMojoPin]

Only if it happens like in your neighborhood, or city. Or on some highway that you or loved ones travel down everyday. Anyone who will stretch it enough to liken every tragic story on the news every night to somehow make it about them is an ass.

I guess I just don't get people who are nuts over animals since they apparently forget what it's like to empathize with other human beings.

[brettmojo]

I guess I just don't get people who are nuts over animals since they apparently forget what it's like to empathize with other human beings.
Well there's an extreme for everything.

PETA for instance, is the extreme. People who say fuck the guy for viciously murdering dogs with his bare hands? More understandable.

Even if you don't give a shit about dogs, it was still illegal. So Vick basically flushing his life down the toilet is his own fault. Regardless of whether or not you don't value any type of life other than human.

[Furtherman]

i think it's silly comparing animals and people. of course we care more about people. if you don't think so, imagine if some athlete was kidnapping people and forcing them to fight to the death in his basement, for fun. that would be the human equivalent of the vick story and BOXOFFICE GOLD FOR ICE-T AND THE BOZ!!!.

Fixed for awesome straight to DVD-coolness.

[TheMojoPin]

Even if you don't give a shit about dogs, it was still illegal. So Vick basically flushing his life down the toilet is his own fault. Regardless of whether or not you don't value any type of life other than human.

Nobody is saying he didn't do anything wrong.

[underdog]

Nobody is saying he didn't do anything wrong.

I'm pretty sure Sailor is saying that.

[sailor]

I'm pretty sure Sailor is saying that.

not at all. i completely condemn vick for what he did. problem is, as soon as you condemn him people say it shows how people care more for animals than people. i think that's a silly viewpoint and was just showing that if the same thing happened but with people as victims it would be the biggest sports related story ever.

[underdog]

not at all. i completely condemn vick for what he did. problem is, as soon as you condemn him people say it shows how people care more for animals than people. i think that's a silly viewpoint and was just showing that if the same thing happened but with people as victims it would be the biggest sports related story ever.

Stop saying it.

[Ogre]

QUOTE=Snoogans;2379538]So what?

http://thecollegefootballreview.com/images/MiscHumorous/JeffGeorgeColts.jpg[/QUOTE]

http://www.kreweofbacchus.org/kandt/images/arnold.JPG

Renaissance Man

[hanso]

He has to play for the Browns.
They have the dog pound
Fans that wear dog masks.
And throw milk bones.
What could be better?

[sailor]

Maybe he will play for the Browns.
Where he could support 'the dog pound'.

He has to play for the Browns.
They have the dog pound
Fans that wear dog masks.
And throw milk bones.
What could be better?

thief!

[hanso]

It would be the irony of irony.

[Snoogans]

I can't wait til Brady goes down week 8 and Michael Vick comes in and leads the pats to a SB, then some dummies give him a 4 year 40 mill contract next season

[cougarjake13]

I can't wait til Brady goes down week 8 and Michael Vick comes in and leads the pats to a SB, then some dummies give him a 4 year 40 mill contract next season

even if he doesnt do that he'll get a contract like that or close to it if he plays well

[TheGameHHH]

I can't wait til Brady goes down week 8 and Cleo Lemon comes in and leads the pats to a SB, then some dummies give him a 4 year 40 mill contract next season

spot on