Science Vs. Religion vs. Unexplained

[thepaulo]

The new movie Angels and Demons has the Vatican killing scientists because they don't like science. This is a pet topic with me. Why can't theologians and scientists and paranormal investigators all get along and work together instead of trying to kill each other?

[Gvac]

The new movie Angels and Demons has the Vatican killing scientists because they don't like science. This is a pet topic with me. Why can't theologians and scientists and paranormal investigators all get along and work together instead of trying to kill each other?

Do they really try to kill each other in real life?

[britneypablo]

<font color="deeppink"> i believe in religion, science, and paranormal...

i want to kill myself

[FezsAssistant]

When your big money business is based on lies and perpetuating ignorance, the last thing you want people learning about is science and facts.
Al Gore is doing the same thing with climate change by vilifying real climate scientists.

[hanso]

One is based in fact. While the other fantasy.
It doesn't leave much of a middle ground.
Then throw politics in the mix fur-get about-it
Its nice to have science back.

[sailor]

i don't think the vatican (or most major religious institutions) are hostile to science. middle ages, sure, but not today. i also know many scientists are also religious, there's no reason for them to be in conflict.

[TooLowBrow]

i don't think the vatican (or most major religious institutions) are hostile to science. middle ages, sure, but not today. i also know many scientists are also religious, there's no reason for them to be in conflict.

do you think a medic, working in africa with aids patients who are ordered never to wear condoms, feels that way?
its tough to know how to prevent a disease from spreading, but gods men tell the people thats using the prevention is evil

[sailor]

do you think a medic, working in africa with aids patients who are ordered never to wear condoms, feels that way?
its tough to know how to prevent a disease from spreading, but gods men tell the people thats using the prevention is evil

yes, the medic could still believe in god even if he thinks this policy is wrong.

[TooLowBrow]

yes, the medic could still believe in god even if he thinks this policy is wrong.

the medic may love god, but religeon often slows science

if small pox was sexually transmitted, then, due to religion, it would still be rampant

[nocountryjon1]

do you think a medic, working in africa with aids patients who are ordered never to wear condoms, feels that way?
its tough to know how to prevent a disease from spreading, but gods men tell the people thats using the prevention is evil

actually they believe in abstinence until marriage. so if your married theres no reason to wear a condom. if youre not married you shouldnt be having sex according to catholics. so they arent going out saying ahhhh fuck everyone. you shouldnt be cleaning your house you should be having sloppy aids sex.they arent saying that if they wait to have sex until marriage the chances of getting aids drops drastically.

[BinaryTaoist]

Science continues to strip religion of power... of course they are pissed!

If you can't see anything spiritual in physics, chemistry, and biology then you really are an asshole.

"Can you believe that some poor schmuck is still burning in hell for eating meat on a Friday?" - George Carlin

...and be fair... Rome hates anyone or anything that does not coincide with her own ideas... The second 'holy crusade' shows just how tolerant Rome was to other forms of Christianity.

[nocountryjon1]

Science continues to strip religion of power... of course they are pissed!

If you can't see anything spiritual in physics, chemistry, and biology then you really are an asshole.

"Can you believe that some poor schmuck is still burning in hell for eating meat on a Friday?" - George Carlin

...and be fair... Rome hates anyone or anything that does not coincide with her own ideas... The second 'holy crusade' shows just how tolerant Rome was to other forms of Christianity.

and how long ago was the second holy crusade? times change and so do beliefs.

[BinaryTaoist]

and how long ago was the second holy crusade? times change and so do beliefs.

I agree that the church has gotten progressive in the last 60 yrs, but you almost make it sound like it was their choice, which if you believe, I would have to disagree. ...and they do so reluctantly because with each progression results in less power and money. I wouldn't be surprised if we see an Asian pope within the next 30-40 yrs because that is the only area where the church is gaining ground.

[thepaulo]

My feeling is our total collected knowledge is so limited that scientists tend to come off arrogant assuming they know it all. Religion has a chip on it's shoulder because so much of it's teaching conflicts with various scientific thought. And of course everyone thinks paranmormal investigators are kooks. I believe we could learn something if everyone opens their minds a bit.

[sailor]

the medic may love god, but religeon often slows science

if small pox was sexually transmitted, then, due to religion, it would still be rampant

none of this really has anything to do with organized religion hating science or vice versa. it's just a difference of opinion on how to deal with a problem.

[The Jays]

This idea that the Church, which refers to the Roman Catholic Church, the one the Pope is leader of, has any hostility towards science just baffles my mind. I mean, the last 2000 years have relied on the hard work of priests, brothers, sisters, and monks to make meaningful contributions in the way of scientific progress. Gregor Mendel comes to mind right off the bat, I mean, he was a Franciscan priest who worked with pea plants and basically discovered genetics. Take a look at this list, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Roman_Catholic_scientist-clerics.

I went to Catholic school. In high school, I was taught physics by a La Sallian brother. I learned 20th century modern literature, as well as Latin, from a La Sallian brother. One of my guidance counselors, a brother with a degree in Psychology. This was a school where I took both biology and AP Biology, and learned about evolution, and the similarities in growth just after conception for all vertebrates.

So, if anything, the ones who have the problem with science are the Christian "The Bible is the literal truth" loons who broke off into their own little cliques after Martin Luther was brave enough to do it for the Lutherans.

[nikolaivolkoff]

Let's compromise and kill the scientologists.

[Gvac]

the medic may love god, but religeon often slows science

if small pox was sexually transmitted, then, due to religion, it would still be rampant

How do you figure? If anything, ultra religious leaders can claim their ways (no homosexuality, no sex outside of marriage) would have prevented AIDS and any sexually transmitted disease.

This idea that the Church, which refers to the Roman Catholic Church, the one the Pope is leader of, has any hostility towards science just baffles my mind.

I went to Catholic school. In high school, I was taught physics by a La Sallian brother. I learned 20th century modern literature, as well as Latin, from a La Sallian brother. One of my guidance counselors, a brother with a degree in Psychology.



Exactly.

People make these broad, sweeping generalizations that make absolutely no sense.

You'd think the majority of the members here formulated their opinions on Christians after reading The DaVinci Code or something.

I attended Catholic school my whole life, and while I'm no longer a practicing member of the religion I'd say the education I received from the nuns, priests, Christian brothers, and lay people who taught me was superior to most public schools.

[thepaulo]

Let's compromise and kill the scientologists.

That's hardly a compromise.

[hanso]

Let's compromise and kill the scientologists.
boycotting their movies would be a nice start
insert list of scientologists actors/actresses here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scientologists

[underdog]

So, if anything, the ones who have the problem with science are the Christian "The Bible is the literal truth" loons who broke off into their own little cliques after Martin Luther was brave enough to do it for the Lutherans.

How are they the loons? The Bible is supposed to be the word of God. Those people seem like they're the only ones following the religion correctly.

[thepaulo]

My big problem is with scientists to a certain degree because of the way most dismiss religion.
My main point is all of us know so little so no one should be arrogant and dismissive.
Religion is clearly a disaster with hundreds of divirgent beliefs but that doesn't mean it should be dismissed out of hand.
After all, what is the Big Bang but Let there be light.

[ADF]

People think paranormal "researchers" are kooks because they are kooks. Just because something is unexplained does not mean it has the result of otherworldly activity. Ghost hunters and the like prey on the ignorance and superstitions of people who don't know any better.

The Vatican has been slowly dragged into the 20th century. They have issued statements that condoms promote AIDS (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1162679/Vatican-defends-Pope-condoms-increase-problem-Aids-Africa-controversy.html). Only recently has the Catholic church given any validity to the theory of evolution. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/4588289/The-Vatican-claims-Darwins-theory-of-evolution-is-compatible-with-Christianity.html)

Catholic priests, teachers, and monks have indeed been bastions of research and science. Gregor Mendel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Mendel), the father of genetics, was a Catholic priest. Clearly, being Catholic does not make you anti-science, but Catholic doctrine has been anti-science for thousands of years.

[Dave's Cackle]

There is no God. As our knowledge of science has grown, sane people no longer need religion to explain things they cannot understand.

[thepaulo]

There is no God. As our knowledge of science has grown, sane people no longer need religion to explain things they cannot understand.

That does not neccesarily follow. Science explains things...yes....Does it explain everything...no.

[Dave's Cackle]

That does not neccesarily follow. Science explains things...yes....Does it explain everything...no.

Myths have no place in this modern world when it comes to explaining that which science cannot.

[Dell]

God is the Master Physicist...

[Dave's Cackle]

God is the Master Physicist...

Right, and the Tooth Fairy leaves money under your pillow...

[Dell]

Right, and the Tooth Fairy leaves money under your pillow...

sadly I am out of teeth... started selling other body parts to pick up the slack

[Ikmu Arsnobu]

No movie looks as good as GI JOE, just kidding. I think that the new Tarantino flick is really going to cause a stir.www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrJ6X0sa4EY

[Dave's Cackle]

sadly I am out of teeth... started selling other body parts to pick up the slack

Meth? :tongue:

[The Jays]

How are they the loons? The Bible is supposed to be the word of God. Those people seem like they're the only ones following the religion correctly.

The Bible is written by men who are supposedly acting as God's pen. If someone takes the Bible literally, then the world was made in 6 days, women were made from a man's rib, and every animal ever made fit onto a wooden arc. The Bible serve a purpose at one time, but it is outdated, and has alot of laws and rules which simply are not applicable to today given our knowledge about the world. There is no way that a book written thousands of years ago can still work as a literal guidebook, and as a rule of law, because it ignores all of human progress since then.

They are loons if they take it literally. Examples of the loons, see "Jesus Camp", and see the Westboro Baptist Church.

[Gvac]

There is no way that a book written thousands of years ago can still work as a literal guidebook, and as a rule of law, because it ignores all of human progress since then.

I disagree.

http://www.davidhinton.net/Images/Tao%20Te%20Ching043.jpg

[Crispy123]

There is no God. As our knowledge of science has grown, sane people no longer need religion to explain things they cannot understand.

This is such an ignorant statement.

[Gvac]

It really is.

As I've said before, people who claim to know with 100% certainty that there isn't a God sound just as ignorant as people who say they're positive there is.

[underdog]

The Bible is written by men who are supposedly acting as God's pen. If someone takes the Bible literally, then the world was made in 6 days, women were made from a man's rib, and every animal ever made fit onto a wooden arc. The Bible serve a purpose at one time, but it is outdated, and has alot of laws and rules which simply are not applicable to today given our knowledge about the world. There is no way that a book written thousands of years ago can still work as a literal guidebook, and as a rule of law, because it ignores all of human progress since then.

They are loons if they take it literally. Examples of the loons, see "Jesus Camp", and see the Westboro Baptist Church.

They all seem like loons to me.

It really is.

As I've said before, people who claim to know with 100% certainty that there isn't a God sound just as ignorant as people who say they're positive there is.

I agree with this.

[thepaulo]

It really is.

As I've said before, people who claim to know with 100% certainty that there isn't a God sound just as ignorant as people who say they're positive there is.

So the issue is what can we learn if we combine everything we know.
The Bible certainly cannot be followed as a guide of what we know of the world and the universe....but we can look at all theological teachings and find interesting parallels and patterns develop. It almost suggests an inate understanding of the universe programmed into our DNA.
And I'm really not interested in a discussion about the Bible because everyone starts spouting off on both sides of the discussion.

What's more interesting is looking at scientific theories that suggest the infinite and the impossible.
Here's one new thoery I heard that is just about as crazy as it gets.
It was suggested that there might be an infinite number of universes with us in it.
This was talked about seriously as scientific theory and not about an episode of Sliders.

[Dell]

okay... such much for my vow to stop posting after drinking... I went such a long time... dang... doesn't make me a bad person...

[the bible]
I believe a lot of the new testament books in the bible were selected because of man's desire for power and control over others, but I do believe there was a person (Jesus) that served a duty assigned him... I believe a lot of the old testament books were inspired by God but many were interpreted to support man's desire for power and control over others... looking for truths in the bible is every individual's job as a thinking being... God gave you that...

[science]
as a scientist, I find a lot of support for many of the accounts in the bible... for example, the order of creation as recorded in the bible is the same temporally as that confirmed by science... granted that there are millions of years between each of the biblical days, but who back then could fathom a million (much less a billion) anything... and with the metaphors and analogies that are prominent in the bible, we had to be expected to apply science and reasoning in our readings...

[paranormal]
since we have confirmed scientifically that there are more than the four dimension with which we can relate, how can anyone discount the accounts of the paranormal (i.e., the unexplained)... in a manner not much different than that depicted in "The Matrix," I think there are dimensions interacting with the four with which we can understand which result in the "unexplained"... I also believe the afterlife is our transition to a dimension beyond the four we understand...

bottom line... I believe this is a world where religion, science and the paranormal collide... to say anyone arguing for any of the three is "wrong" is closed minded... there is truth in all three (just don't follow a carny like Jon Stewart)...

[ADF]

It really is.

As I've said before, people who claim to know with 100% certainty that there isn't a God sound just as ignorant as people who say they're positive there is.

This is an example of argument from ignorance. I don't believe in god because I haven't seen any evidence that there is a god. The onus is on the believer to provide evidence. "I don't know" is not evidence. For example, a child of four years age might wake up and see presents under his Christmas tree. He thinks, "I don't know how those presents got there; Santa must have done it." Replace that with "I don't know how the universe was created; God must have done it." If you're a believer in the supernatural, where is your evidence for it?

[Gvac]

This is an example of argument from ignorance. I don't believe in god because I haven't seen any evidence that there is a god. The onus is on the believer to provide evidence. "I don't know" is not evidence. For example, a child of four years age might wake up and see presents under his Christmas tree. He thinks, "I don't know how those presents got there; Santa must have done it." Replace that with "I don't know how the universe was created; God must have done it." If you're a believer in the supernatural, where is your evidence for it?

No, it's not ignorance and your example is a poor one. My argument is made from pure logic.

You say you don't believe in God because you haven't seen any evidence that there is a God. Have you seen evidence there isn't?

That's all I'm saying.

I just find it laughable that human beings think they can explain and know everything about the universe.

It's unknowable. Instead of accepting the mystery we attempt to explain it. Some with religion, others with science. For either side to point to the other and believe they can definitively say who is wrong and who is right is nonsense.

[underdog]

No, it's not ignorance and your example is a poor one. My argument is made from pure logic.

You say you don't believe in God because you haven't seen any evidence that there is a God. Have you seen evidence there isn't?

That's all I'm saying.

I just find it laughable that human beings think they can explain and know everything about the universe.

It's unknowable. Instead of accepting the mystery we attempt to explain it. Some with religion, others with science. For either side to point to the other and believe they can definitively say who is wrong and who is right is nonsense.

Where is your evidence that a Giant Spaghetti Monster didn't create the universe?

Using your logic, you cannot rule out anything from creating the universe because there is no evidence that they didn't.

[jab]

Where is your evidence that a Giant Spaghetti Monster didn't create the universe?

Using your logic, you cannot rule out anything from creating the universe because there is no evidence that they didn't.

win

[jennysmurf]

I believe that science and religion keep each other "honest." They provide a checks and balances for each other, which is why they are so often at odds. Each is necessary to keep the other from getting too out of control. The most important thing that must be remembered is to never take anything at face value. You've got to do the research into anything that you're told, be it from a scientist or a church.

[underdog]

I believe that science and religion keep each other "honest." They provide a checks and balances for each other, which is why they are so often at odds. Each is necessary to keep the other from getting too out of control. The most important thing that must be remembered is to never take anything at face value. You've got to do the research into anything that you're told, be it from a scientist or a church.

How does science get "too out of control"?

[drusilla]

You say you don't believe in God because you haven't seen any evidence that there is a God. Have you seen evidence there isn't?


you can call me a loon all you want, but i believe there is no god. i went to hebrew school from the time i was 5. i was taught all sorts of myths. the biggest being that jews are god's children & he'll be there when he is needed to save you. i was a really young impressionable child when my older brother was stabbed in the heart while trying to break up a fight. from then on as a 9 year old i knew there was no god. there is no way our "father" would let something like that happen to one of his children. & one of his children in that violent of a way when said child was performing a mitzvah.


it was over for me from that moment on.

i swear if anyone in this thread is serious in saying something as shitty as "well maybe it was his time to die" i will spit in your fucking face.

some people can look at it as "well maybe you were saved by this happening" because of the person i became. that's fucking shit if you saw what happened to the rest of my family. yes i am what i am because this happened. but i was the lucky one.



i don't think the vatican (or most major religious institutions) are hostile to science. middle ages, sure, but not today. i also know many scientists are also religious, there's no reason for them to be in conflict.

i was watching something on the history channel that said only about 10% of scientists are religious.



When your big money business is based on lies and perpetuating ignorance, the last thing you want people learning about is science and facts.


& there's your answer right there

[jennysmurf]

How does science get "too out of control"?

It's hard to explain, but in my brain it makes perfect sense. :tongue: I mean, history has shown us what happens when the church got out of control, but what about science? There were all sorts of government scientific experiments on humans in the last century, for example. Science isn't known for it's value of human life. It's a delicate balance, and I believe we need both. Like the liberals need the democrats and vice versa.

[hammersavage]

It's unknowable. Instead of accepting the mystery we attempt to explain it. Some with religion, others with science. For either side to point to the other and believe they can definitively say who is wrong and who is right is nonsense.

I agree with this. However, one side clearly has pushed their belief WAAAYYYYY more than the other side over time. Those who don't believe in God may be snide in their beliefs, but they haven't waged war or killed in the name of God like those who do. And have since religion has existed.

This break in logic alone is enough for some to reject the principles. Religion has been attempted to be forced on people for so long that I'm pretty sure it can't be the answer.

God may exist but man is ignorant in believing he can explain it.

[ADF]

No, it's not ignorance and your example is a poor one. My argument is made from pure logic.

You say you don't believe in God because you haven't seen any evidence that there is a God. Have you seen evidence there isn't?

That's all I'm saying.

I just find it laughable that human beings think they can explain and know everything about the universe.

It's unknowable. Instead of accepting the mystery we attempt to explain it. Some with religion, others with science. For either side to point to the other and believe they can definitively say who is wrong and who is right is nonsense.

This is a textbook example of argument from ignorance.

I haven't seen purple bunnies on Mars, but I believe that to be the case. Can you prove there aren't? Therefore, it's only logical to assume there are purple bunnies on Mars. Atheists don't claim to know everything. They only claim to not see any evidence that god exists.

[drusilla]

i just get really bothered when people try to push their beliefs on me or give me shit for mine when i never do that to anyone. so i got annoyed & just felt like i had to get it all out up there.

[jennysmurf]

i just get really bothered when people try to push their beliefs on me or give me shit for mine when i never do that to anyone. so i got annoyed & just felt like i had to get it all out up there.

Hey, as far as I'm concerned, this is the best place for getting it all out. I don't like people telling me that they know what's best for me or the right way or whatever, so I can totally understand getting annoyed. Let it all out!!!!

[drusilla]

thanks. i may have just worked out so i had some extra hostility flying around. i think i'm good now.

[thepaulo]

Hey, as far as I'm concerned, this is the best place for getting it all out. I don't like people telling me that they know what's best for me or the right way or whatever, so I can totally understand getting annoyed. Let it all out!!!!

I agree. Let's all just have an open mind and keep the know-it-all out of it.
The one thing we should be able to agree on is we all know very little.
Any true scientist knows that we have only just begun to unlock secrets to the universe.
The 4th dimension is an excellent place to start. How much do we know about that?
Does God live there?

[Gvac]

This is a textbook example of argument from ignorance.

I haven't seen purple bunnies on Mars, but I believe that to be the case. Can you prove there aren't? Therefore, it's only logical to assume there are purple bunnies on Mars. Atheists don't claim to know everything. They only claim to not see any evidence that god exists.

No, it's not. And you're completely missing the point.

You seem to have some sort of hatred and anger toward the concept of a God.

I don't know why, but you're getting agitated and making fallacious statements and conclusions.

I said we can't prove it either way; I NEVER said "it can't be unproven, so it exists" like you're claiming I did. I said it can't be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt and it can't be unproven beyond a shadow of a doubt, therefore no one can say with 100% certainty that their belief is correct and the other isn't.

That's just bad science. And any scientist worth his salt would tell you the same thing.



Are you familiar with sub-atomic particles and the theories of physics?

Do you know anything about quarks or leptons?

[thepaulo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_dimension

Since no one knows much about the 4th dimension....
here's a brief description.

[Gvac]

you can call me a loon all you want, but i believe there is no god. i went to hebrew school from the time i was 5. i was taught all sorts of myths. the biggest being that jews are god's children & he'll be there when he is needed to save you. i was a really young impressionable child when my older brother was stabbed in the heart while trying to break up a fight. from then on as a 9 year old i knew there was no god. there is no way our "father" would let something like that happen to one of his children. & one of his children in that violent of a way when said child was performing a mitzvah.


it was over for me from that moment on.

i swear if anyone in this thread is serious in saying something as shitty as "well maybe it was his time to die" i will spit in your fucking face.

some people can look at it as "well maybe you were saved by this happening" because of the person i became. that's fucking shit if you saw what happened to the rest of my family. yes i am what i am because this happened. but i was the lucky one.





i was watching something on the history channel that said only about 10% of scientists are religious.





& there's your answer right there

The only point I'm trying to make in this thread is that a scientist wouldn't claim to know something for certain until every theory was checked beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Also, who said anything about the supreme power being the God depicted in the Old Testament? Or the New Testament? Or the Koran?

I'm merely pointing out that we have absolutely no way of knowing one way or the other.

[sailor]

i was watching something on the history channel that said only about 10% of scientists are religious.

i'd call that many, and it's probably higher than i expected.

You seem to have some sort of hatred and anger toward the concept of a God.

it's very common on this board. you left out disdain of anyone believing in the possibility of a god.

[drusilla]

i'd call that many, and it's probably higher than i expected.



it's very common on this board. you left out disdain of anyone believing in the possibility of a god.

i wish i knew what show it was cause that actually does seem like too much to me. something like 1% makes more sense to me. i could have false information. who knows.

[Crispy123]

Most peoples understanding of science and technology mirrors organized religion. It is completely guided by faith in the words and concepts of others with little understanding by the individual. Traditions and social rituals guide their actions and belief in "science" .

[sailor]

i wish i knew what show it was cause that actually does seem like too much to me. something like 1% makes more sense to me. i could have false information. who knows.

i could see 5-10, so it's reasonable. just the high end of my expectation.

[drusilla]

Also, who said anything about the supreme power being the God depicted in the Old Testament? Or the New Testament? Or the Koran?

.

because that was what was drilled into my head over & over as a child as i'm sure most of everyone did in one way or another.

when i realized it was all bullshit i didn't need to go looking for any other answers. i had my answer. & that's what it is, my answer.

[The Jays]

All I was trying to say was that Catholic priests and brothers teach evolution. :(

[drusilla]

oh yeah?? well they also touch little boys too! how about them apples!

[TjM]

There is no way that a book written thousands of years ago can still work as a literal guidebook, .

http://homepage.mac.com/dave_rogers/images/10

[ADF]

No, it's not. And you're completely missing the point.

You seem to have some sort of hatred and anger toward the concept of a God.

I don't know why, but you're getting agitated and making fallacious statements and conclusions.

I said we can't prove it either way; I NEVER said "it can't be unproven, so it exists" like you're claiming I did. I said it can't be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt and it can't be unproven beyond a shadow of a doubt, therefore no one can say with 100% certainty that their belief is correct and the other isn't.

That's just bad science. And any scientist worth his salt would tell you the same thing.



Are you familiar with sub-atomic particles and the theories of physics?

Do you know anything about quarks or leptons?

I wasn't entirely clear in my example as it was meant to illustrate how a lot of people use the argument from ignorance to "prove" their point. As it pertains to you, the proper wording would be "Therefore, purple bunnies on Marsmay exist and you can't prove they don't." Yes, that is true, but as I've said, the onus is on the person promoting the theory to prove it. Your theory is that god exists. What evidence or proof do you have to support your answer? Any scientist will tell you that a theory must be tested and retested. Religion attempts to escape this by relying on "faith" and the "mysteries of the universe." Those can be wonderful concepts and they may help you get by in your daily life, but the atheist prefers to rely on himself, his fellow human beings, and the observable universe.

Any agitation you see in my writing has not been put there by me. It's generally not a good idea to presume emotion, especially in a forum such as this. I don't hate the concept of God just as I don't hate the concept of Santa Claus. They both can add joy and wonderment to your life, but I see no evidence that either of them exist. However, if you find yourself getting agitated or defensive perhaps you should examine your beliefs and why you believe them. It's impossible for me to feel defensive as I literally have nothing to defend.

Lastly, I don't know what my knowledge or lack of knowledge concerning subatomic particles has to do with the matter at hand.

[TjM]

http://homepage.mac.com/dave_rogers/images/10

Doh!

That was only a little over 400 years ago.

[CountryBob]

I have to say that I have had a few experiences that can only be explained as a miracle or an act of God but i cant prove it for some of you that demand scientific proof to believe. When some things happen to you like these occurances - there is no other explanation other than a Divine presence. I like the feeling that there is a supreme being but I dont care what anyone else believes in and I dont have an agenda to try to convince you otherwise.

[BinaryTaoist]

I agree. Let's all just have an open mind and keep the know-it-all out of it.
The one thing we should be able to agree on is we all know very little.
Any true scientist knows that we have only just begun to unlock secrets to the universe.
The 4th dimension is an excellent place to start. How much do we know about that?
Does God live there?


Paulo the 4th dimension is time and motion... I can tell you to meet me at the building on 1st & Broadway, on the fourth floor... now while you have the first 3 dimensions - 1st street representing the dimension of length, broadway representing the dimension, and the fourth floor representing the height - You don't know WHEN we are supposed to meet. You need to add another dimension to meet me... the dimension of time. Now the MEASUREMENT of time isn't real, but time is real. Time is a result of motion. If nothing moved, time would be irrelevent. Time was used to measure the motion of the moon around the earth and the earth around the sun (or in those days the sun & moon around the earth). Because time is the result of motion, and motion exists in three dimensions of space, time and space cannot be understood separately. Hence Einsteins creation of the term 'timespace continuum'.

The problem is that since we can't find anything in the universe that ISN'T in constant motion, then our model of a 4 dimensional uiverse is incomplete at best and totally an illusion at 'worst'.

What tickles my brain is Einsteins special theory of relativity, which basically implies that our state of motion determines our perception of space.

In the whole 'religion vs. science' arguement there seems to be an undertone of religion being moral and science being immoral. Morality is a loaded word, and there is no true morality; just as there is no true good or evil outside the realm of human perception.

[ADF]

In the whole 'religion vs. science' arguement there seems to be an undertone of religion being moral and science being immoral. Morality is a loaded word, and there is no true morality; just as there is no true good or evil outside the realm of human perception.

I would say "amoral" rather than "immoral." Other than that, I agree with your argument. Morals can't be falsified and are subjective.

[Dave's Cackle]

When some things happen to you like these occurances - there is no other explanation other than a Divine presence.

Example, please.

[The Jays]

oh yeah?? well they also touch little boys too! how about them apples!

So some priests touch little boys, thus, evolution doesn't exist.

[epo]

Where is your evidence that a Giant Spaghetti Monster didn't create the universe?

http://web.as.uky.edu/Biology/faculty/cooper/UKSHIFT/Touched_by_His_Noodly_Appendage.jpg

We pastafarians need to stick together.

[The Jays]

i wish i knew what show it was cause that actually does seem like too much to me. something like 1% makes more sense to me. i could have false information. who knows.

But, would a person's belief in God make you dismiss their knowledge, i.e. research, regarding some aspect of the universe? For example, if a priest developed research and proof of the existence of the elusive graviton particle which causes gravity to occur, would you dismiss their proof on account that he also happens to believe in God?

[Gvac]

I wasn't entirely clear in my example as it was meant to illustrate how a lot of people use the argument from ignorance to "prove" their point. As it pertains to you, the proper wording would be "Therefore, purple bunnies on Marsmay exist and you can't prove they don't." Yes, that is true, but as I've said, the onus is on the person promoting the theory to prove it. Your theory is that god exists. What evidence or proof do you have to support your answer? Any scientist will tell you that a theory must be tested and retested. Religion attempts to escape this by relying on "faith" and the "mysteries of the universe." Those can be wonderful concepts and they may help you get by in your daily life, but the atheist prefers to rely on himself, his fellow human beings, and the observable universe.

Any agitation you see in my writing has not been put there by me. It's generally not a good idea to presume emotion, especially in a forum such as this. I don't hate the concept of God just as I don't hate the concept of Santa Claus. They both can add joy and wonderment to your life, but I see no evidence that either of them exist. However, if you find yourself getting agitated or defensive perhaps you should examine your beliefs and why you believe them. It's impossible for me to feel defensive as I literally have nothing to defend.

Lastly, I don't know what my knowledge or lack of knowledge concerning subatomic particles has to do with the matter at hand.

Again, NO, IT IS NOT.

I never said I was a believer. Truth be told, I'm not.

My theory is that it is impossible to prove if God does or doesn't exist.

That is all I am saying.

You (and others) are the one with an irrational disdain for the very idea that a being more powerful than humans might possibly exist and are trying to claim that is my point.

It never has been.

[Gvac]

Lastly, I don't know what my knowledge or lack of knowledge concerning subatomic particles has to do with the matter at hand.

Quarks are what scientists presume protons, electrons, and neutrons are made up of.

No one has ever seen them, but for their theories to work, they presume their existence.

Those crazy scientists!

Believing in the existence of something they can't see or prove!

[keithy_19]

There is no God. As our knowledge of science has grown, sane people no longer need religion to explain things they cannot understand.

As our knowledge of science grows we seem to just have more questions.

But then again, how could anyone possibly believe that there's something else out there than what man knows? I mean, wow. I can't fathom how humans could ever be wrong about something. We know all, right? Give me a break.

[drusilla]

But, would a person's belief in God make you dismiss their knowledge, i.e. research, regarding some aspect of the universe? For example, if a priest developed research and proof of the existence of the elusive graviton particle which causes gravity to occur, would you dismiss their proof on account that he also happens to believe in God?

no that would have nothing to do with it. i was just saying that its rare to find a religious scientist

[The Jays]

Oh, ok. Just was wondering.

[thepaulo]

Paulo the 4th dimension is time and motion... I can tell you to meet me at the building on 1st & Broadway, on the fourth floor... now while you have the first 3 dimensions - 1st street representing the dimension of length, broadway representing the dimension, and the fourth floor representing the height - You don't know WHEN we are supposed to meet. You need to add another dimension to meet me... the dimension of time. Now the MEASUREMENT of time isn't real, but time is real. Time is a result of motion. If nothing moved, time would be irrelevent. Time was used to measure the motion of the moon around the earth and the earth around the sun (or in those days the sun & moon around the earth). Because time is the result of motion, and motion exists in three dimensions of space, time and space cannot be understood separately. Hence Einsteins creation of the term 'timespace continuum'.

The problem is that since we can't find anything in the universe that ISN'T in constant motion, then our model of a 4 dimensional uiverse is incomplete at best and totally an illusion at 'worst'.

What tickles my brain is Einsteins special theory of relativity, which basically implies that our state of motion determines our perception of space.

In the whole 'religion vs. science' arguement there seems to be an undertone of religion being moral and science being immoral. Morality is a loaded word, and there is no true morality; just as there is no true good or evil outside the realm of human perception.

You're description of the 4th dimrnsion seems to suggest that it really doesn't exist. It's more an elusive concept. But the descriptions I've heard from many scientists is that it is a place but our interaction with it is very limited.

While I'm at it, Angels and Demons also makes use of the God Partical in it's plot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson

[The Jays]

You're description of the 4th dimrnsion seems to suggest that it really doesn't exist. It's more an elusive concept. But the descriptions I've heard from many scientists is that it is a place but our interaction with it is very limited.

While I'm at it, Angels and Demons also makes use of the God Partical in it's plot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson

The 4th dimension does exist, it is called space-time. Matter does not exist without it. Think of it like this... say you have a ball, and the ball has some weight to it... now imagine this ball is on a sheet, a sheet which goes off into infinity. The ball puts an indentation in the sheet as it sits on it. Now imagine this sheet is pulled, and it is moving. The ball stays in the same place in the indentation it creates in the sheet, as the sheet is being pulled from under it, off into infinity, thus, forever. The ball represents matter, the indentation represents gravity, and the sheet represents space-time.

[CountryBob]

Wouldnt it be so much easier if god himself would show up at a news conference and tell all of us either ya with me or ya not. Would anybody not be with him?

[Dave's Cackle]

As our knowledge of science grows we seem to just have more questions.

But then again, how could anyone possibly believe that there's something else out there than what man knows? I mean, wow. I can't fathom how humans could ever be wrong about something. We know all, right? Give me a break.

...and science keeps answering those questions. Your argument is silly.

[thepaulo]

...and science keeps answering those questions. Your argument is silly.

Science has answered a few questions. The unanswered questions stretch into infinity.

[Dave's Cackle]

Science has answered a few questions. The unanswered questions stretch into infinity.

...and religion will never be able to answer those questions.

Why can't you people who continue to push your religious beliefs just accept that the Big Three Religions on Earth were created by humans through an amalgamation of myths and stories passed down through a collective oral tradition over thousands of years?

I'm amazed at your inability to accept reality.

[Dave's Cackle]

Former fundamentalist 'debunks' Bible (http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/05/15/bible.critic/index.html)

Ehrman, a best-selling author and a professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, is a biblical sleuth whose investigations make some people very angry.

In Ehrman's latest book, "Jesus, Interrupted," he concludes:

Doctrines such as the divinity of Jesus and heaven and hell are not based on anything Jesus or his earlier followers said.

At least 19 of the 27 books in the New Testament are forgeries.

Believing the Bible is infallible is not a condition for being a Christian.

"Christianity has never been about the Bible being the inerrant word of God," Ehrman says.
"Christianity is about the belief in Christ."

[booster11373]

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zOfjkl-3SNE&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zOfjkl-3SNE&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[thepaulo]

Former fundamentalist 'debunks' Bible (http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/05/15/bible.critic/index.html)

Ehrman, a best-selling author and a professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, is a biblical sleuth whose investigations make some people very angry.

In Ehrman's latest book, "Jesus, Interrupted," he concludes:

Doctrines such as the divinity of Jesus and heaven and hell are not based on anything Jesus or his earlier followers said.

At least 19 of the 27 books in the New Testament are forgeries.

Believing the Bible is infallible is not a condition for being a Christian.

"Christianity has never been about the Bible being the inerrant word of God," Ehrman says.
"Christianity is about the belief in Christ."

I am very much in favor of finding the truth. But very few educated people believe the Bible is to be taken as gospel. The fact that it was constructed under the guidance of Constantine at the council of Nicae doesn't necessarily mean that the Bible isn't divinely inspired.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

It may sound like I'm grasping at straws but I'm simply keeping an open mind.
And interesting approach is to look at the Bible codes which various Jewish scholars have been laboring on. If you've ever seen the movie (I don't have the symbol for pie on my computer) by Darron Aronofsky, you'll know what I'm talking about. I'm sure it's easy to dismiss it as poppycock, but I find it interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_code

Chew on that.

[TheMojoPin]

The 4th dimension does exist, it is called space-time. Matter does not exist without it. Think of it like this... say you have a ball, and the ball has some weight to it... now imagine this ball is on a sheet, a sheet which goes off into infinity. The ball puts an indentation in the sheet as it sits on it. Now imagine this sheet is pulled, and it is moving. The ball stays in the same place in the indentation it creates in the sheet, as the sheet is being pulled from under it, off into infinity, thus, forever. The ball represents matter, the indentation represents gravity, and the sheet represents space-time.

Get out of here with your flimflammery unless you can back it up with a Dan Brown book, you godless heathen.

[ADF]

Again, NO, IT IS NOT.

I never said I was a believer. Truth be told, I'm not.

My theory is that it is impossible to prove if God does or doesn't exist.

That is all I am saying.

You (and others) are the one with an irrational disdain for the very idea that a being more powerful than humans might possibly exist and are trying to claim that is my point.

It never has been.
Perhaps we're on the same page but arguing different sides of the proverbial coin. My argument is that there is no proof that god exists. A complete lack of evidence for something suggests that it does not exist. The burden of proof relies on the party making the claim. If one is not claiming that god exists, why introduce the concept at all? Adding extraneous factors into our understanding of the universe seems superfluous to me.

Again, I am not a particle physicist, but a quick google search will point you to a number of articles that provide evidence that quarks and other subatomic particles exist. These were accomplished through a scientific process in which theories were made and then tested. Currently, there is no reputable scientific experiment that has given any evidence that god exists.

One might argue that as our understanding of the universe expands it might be the case that we find evidence for god just as we found evidence for elements, atoms, etc. I am highly skeptical that such a situation will occur just as I am highly skeptical that we will ever find evidence that Santa Claus exists.

Lastly, I must restate that any emotional reaction to the concept of god in my writing is not put there by me.

[Dave's Cackle]

I am very much in favor of finding the truth. But very few educated people believe the Bible is to be taken as gospel. The fact that it was constructed under the guidance of Constantine at the council of Nicae doesn't necessarily mean that the Bible isn't divinely inspired.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

The book was put together by men with an agenda...unless you believe in the concept of predestination, in which case God made those men put together a flawed book. You can't have gospels purposefully eliminated from final publication if indeed those are also the Word of God. In layman terms - the shit was made up, son.


It may sound like I'm grasping at straws

You are grasping at straws

And interesting approach is to look at the Bible codes which various Jewish scholars have been laboring on. If you've ever seen the movie (I don't have the symbol for pie on my computer) by Darron Aronofsky, you'll know what I'm talking about. I'm sure it's easy to dismiss it as poppycock, but I find it interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_code

Chew on that.

There's nothing to chew on except trying to see something which is not there. The Bible is a work of pure fiction. Nothing more, nothing less.

There is no evidence Jesus ever existed. Show me some bones - then again, those bones would blow the whole myth of the religion to shreds. The idea of Jesus is just a myth.

[Crispy123]

...and religion will never be able to answer those questions.

Why can't you people who continue to push your religious beliefs just accept that the Big Three Religions on Earth were created by humans through an amalgamation of myths and stories passed down through a collective oral tradition over thousands of years?

I'm amazed at your inability to accept reality.



Accept this reality bud, you are the only one pushing your beliefs. Ill say it again 95% of the people on this planets understanding of science is as much a leap of faith as anyone believing in the big three religions. Im sure your "science" was handed down to you much like the ancient "myths" of religion.

Perhaps we're on the same page but arguing different sides of the proverbial coin. My argument is that there is no proof that god exists. A complete lack of evidence for something suggests that it does not exist. The burden of proof relies on the party making the claim. If one is not claiming that god exists, why introduce the concept at all? Adding extraneous factors into our understanding of the universe seems superfluous to me.

Complete lack of evidence? Explain stonehenge, easter island, the pyramids, and UFOs. If you need proof of gods, look at the world economy. No one knows how currency is valuated, it is a mystery to pretty much everyone yet people still trade their time and labor for slips of money and have complete faith in the value of that money. Atheists my ass.

[TheMojoPin]

Complete lack of evidence? Explain stonehenge, easter island, the pyramids, and UFOs.

There are many viable theories for the Egyptian pyramids, Stonehenge and the Easter Island statues that have absolutely nothing to do with aliens.

[Crispy123]

There are many viable theories for the Egyptian pyramids, Stonehenge and the Easter Island statues that have absolutely nothing to do with aliens.

Ok but you cant say its a "complete lack of evidence".

[Dave's Cackle]

Accept this reality bud, you are the only one pushing your beliefs.

Myself...and 95% of scientists alive today :clap::clap::thumbup::thumbup::bye::bye:

[TheMojoPin]

Ok but you cant say its a "complete lack of evidence".

Compared to the human-based theories, yes, there's almost a total lack of evidence that UFO's and aliens were involved.

[Furtherman]

Wouldnt it be so much easier if god himself would show up at a news conference and tell all of us either ya with me or ya not. Would anybody not be with him?

I wouldn't.

Because what kind of all-knowing, all-powerful, all-eternal deity would actually ask his creation to take a side?

That is human, animalistic instinct. Ego.

And there lies the rub: It is obvious that god did not create man in his image, rather man created god in his.

So once you'd say yes, he'd accept you and forget the rest? With that kind of thinking, he'd manage to change his mind sooner or later.

Imagine living "in the so-called eternity" like that?

If god presented that scenario, I'd know something is up. Some alien come down to take advantage of the primitive minds. IT'S A COOKBOOK!!!!!

[hanso]

I have to say that I have had a few experiences that can only be explained as a miracle or an act of God but i cant prove it for some of you that demand scientific proof to believe. When some things happen to you like these occurances - there is no other explanation other than a Divine presence. I like the feeling that there is a supreme being but I dont care what anyone else believes in and I dont have an agenda to try to convince you otherwise.

This is a good case for Religion. And I do side with this aspect.
However my question is why does this always have to come from one supreme being (God).
Why not guardian angels? Or spirits of past family or friends?

btw I have also had experiences such as these.

[Dave's Cackle]

When some things happen to you like these occurances - there is no other explanation other than a Divine presence.

Wrong.

There is ALWAYS a scientific explanation for real world events. Whether we fully understand every event in that time line is another matter. The use of an other worldly presence to explain this phenomenon is as antiquated as using leeches to cure headaches.

I like the feeling that there is a supreme being but I dont care what anyone else believes in and I dont have an agenda to try to convince you otherwise.

Why are you afraid of having a greater understanding of your existence through the glory of modern science and rational thought?

[thepaulo]

Get out of here with your flimflammery unless you can back it up with a Dan Brown book, you godless heathen.

I AM Not a godless heathen.
I am a delusional wackjob.

[BinaryTaoist]

This is a good case for Religion. And I do side with this aspect.
However my question is why does this always have to come from one supreme being (God).
Why not guardian angels? Or spirits of past family or friends?

btw I have also had experiences such as these.


If spirits, guardian angels, and even god are running around helping people, then why do bad things happen to people? More importantly, why do bad things happen to GOOD people? Why do the people who do bad things thrive? Thats not a god worthy of even my respect, let alone my loyalty and spirit.

When looking at all the religions in the world which one is science supposed to be more in line with? I mean most of them violently disagree with eachother... ...and to be certain that a persons religion is correct because its the only one they have experienced highlights just how arrogant and obtuse human beings can be.

Religion & paranormalists should not be even compared to science. These are two schools of thought that begin with a conclusion, and then figure out the rest. Science makes a hypothesis and backs it up (or doesn't) with measurable data gathered through experimentation. Even then a hypothesis may only graduate to a 'theory'. ...and how few graduate to the status of 'law'...

Investigation of "unanswered questions" is exactly what science is all about.

...and the fourth dimension isn't 'timespace'. The first three dimensions make up 'space', while the fourth dimension represents 'time'. Viewed as an emcompassing whole; all four dimensions are seen as one, known as the 'timespace continuum'. Think of a 3-d comic book. The images appear to have a length, a width, and a height - three dimensions. If that image started moving, then we'd need time to measure its movement from one point of space to the next.

[thepaulo]

If spirits, guardian angels, and even god are running around helping people, then why do bad things happen to people? More importantly, why do bad things happen to GOOD people? Why do the people who do bad things thrive? Thats not a god worthy of even my respect, let alone my loyalty and spirit.

When looking at all the religions in the world which one is science supposed to be more in line with? I mean most of them violently disagree with eachother... ...and to be certain that a persons religion is correct because its the only one they have experienced highlights just how arrogant and obtuse human beings can be.

Religion & paranormalists should not be even compared to science. These are two schools of thought that begin with a conclusion, and then figure out the rest. Science makes a hypothesis and backs it up (or doesn't) with measurable data gathered through experimentation. Even then a hypothesis may only graduate to a 'theory'. ...and how few graduate to the status of 'law'...

Investigation of "unanswered questions" is exactly what science is all about.

...and the fourth dimension isn't 'timespace'. The first three dimensions make up 'space', while the fourth dimension represents 'time'. Viewed as an emcompassing whole; all four dimensions are seen as one, known as the 'timespace continuum'. Think of a 3-d comic book. The images appear to have a length, a width, and a height - three dimensions. If that image started moving, then we'd need time to measure its movement from one point of space to the next.

I only have time to respond to one small part of your post right now because I'm running out the door. In reference to respecting God who allows so much pain and suffering...I always assume that everything in life is a learning process and we have to go through trials and lessons to grow as human beings. That may be silly but it might be true.

[Crispy123]

I only have time to respond to one small part of your post right now because I'm running out the door. In reference to respecting God who allows so much pain and suffering...I always assume that everything in life is a learning process and we have to go through trials and lessons to grow as human beings. That may be silly but it might be true.

I agree that life is a learning process but to think that a greater force actually sits and ponders the fate of individuals is very egocentric IMO. I know that my body is made up of millions of living cells. It would make sense to me that it goes both ways; there is a microworld inside my body and a big old macro one going on outside of it. For me to believe that this world that I know isn't apart of something bigger that I just cant comprehend seems ignorant to me.

Compared to the human-based theories, yes, there's almost a total lack of evidence that UFO's and aliens were involved.

I call bullshit my friend. The theory that humans built these things Ill give you, but the technology to understand the solar system, lattitude & longitude, the ability to make detailed plans without any known written language, and the replicas in remote parts of the world where intercontinental travel is not documented leaves open many unanswered questions.

[TheMojoPin]

I call bullshit my friend. The theory that humans built these things Ill give you, but the technology to understand the solar system, lattitude & longitude, the ability to make detailed plans without any known written language, and the replicas in remote parts of the world where intercontinental travel is not documented leaves open many unanswered questions.

Sure, but leaping to alien involvement is a HUGE leap. Odds are it's something man-made or "man-figured out." The biggest thing against alien involvement in anything is the complete lack of anything even remotely concrete that shows that aliens have been here, much less contacted or worked with us.

[Crispy123]

Sure, but leaping to alien involvement is a HUGE leap. Odds are it's something man-made or "man-figured out." The biggest thing against alien involvement in anything is the complete lack of anything even remotely concrete that shows that aliens have been here, much less contacted or worked with us.


Again I take issue with the "complete lack of evidence" argument. Think of it what you will but many people believe that the ancient cave drawings, ancient mythologies, and even the story of Jesus birth in the bible could be accounts of Alien intervention.

[TheMojoPin]

Again I take issue with the "complete lack of evidence" argument. Think of it what you will but many people believe that the ancient cave drawings, ancient mythologies, and even the story of Jesus birth in the bible could be accounts of Alien intervention.

But why would that be more likely than a man or Earth-based answer? Look throughout history at the countless discoveries based on mistaken assumptions about earlier societies and civilizations and what they were capable of. It's far more likely that we simply haven't stumbled across ancient knowledge as opposed to alien involvement.

[Crispy123]

But why would that be more likely than a man or Earth-based answer? Look throughout history at the countless discoveries based on mistaken assumptions about earlier societies and civilizations and what they were capable of. It's far more likely that we simply haven't stumbled across ancient knowledge as opposed to alien involvement.

Hey Im not claiming to have the answer or sway anyone elses beliefs one way or the other. Im just playing the devils advocate and saying the devils an alien from Planet X and hes a pretty cool dude.

[ADF]

Again I take issue with the "complete lack of evidence" argument. Think of it what you will but many people believe that the ancient cave drawings, ancient mythologies, and even the story of Jesus birth in the bible could be accounts of Alien intervention.

The statement that "many people" believe something does not make it true. Additionally, the fact that you don't understand how something came to be doesn't necessitate alien involvement. You're severely downplaying the inventiveness and perseverance of humanity.

[I Am The Lord Your God]

DO NOT BLASPHEME!

[Gvac]

DO NOT BLASPHEME!

P.S. - That post was by me as a board character!

I don't want anyone to think I'm hiding behind a pseudonym!

The signature "I HATE FAGS" is a joke about the Westboro Baptist Church and their website "GodHatesFags.Com"

I don't want anything out there that people could misconstrue!!!!




Well, this certainly makes things a lot less fun, now doesn't it?

[Crispy123]

The statement that "many people" believe something does not make it true. Additionally, the fact that you don't understand how something came to be doesn't necessitate alien involvement. You're severely downplaying the inventiveness and perseverance of humanity.

If you are questioning my beliefs, it is that we were visited by aliens and given tools to move our species in certain directions. I am amazed at the humans of the past and today and what some people achieve with their lives. I also think that humanity on this world has ancestors on other worlds throughout this universe. So thats pretty damn inventive and impressive if they have made journies to our world.

I am giving examples where you ignorantly claim there to be a "complete lack of evidence". I am citing alternate theories with possible evidence, I am not making claims as to truth or untruth. I am pointing out inacuraccies with other peoples logic in this thread. That is all.

[TheMojoPin]

But you're not presenting any evidence.

I'm certainly open to those theories, but at this moment in time they don't have anything backing them up.

[ADF]

If you are questioning my beliefs, it is that we were visited by aliens and given tools to move our species in certain directions. I am amazed at the humans of the past and today and what some people achieve with their lives. I also think that humanity on this world has ancestors on other worlds throughout this universe. So thats pretty damn inventive and impressive if they have made journies to our world.

I am giving examples where you ignorantly claim there to be a "complete lack of evidence". I am citing alternate theories with possible evidence, I am not making claims as to truth or untruth. I am pointing out inacuraccies with other peoples logic in this thread. That is all.


http://img.alibaba.com/photo/11253208/Quartz_Wooden_Cuckoo_Clock.jpg

[Crispy123]

But you're not presenting any evidence.

I'm certainly open to those theories, but at this moment in time they don't have anything backing them up.

I have given you Stonehenge, The Pyramids, Easter Island, Cave Drawings, Religions of the Sumerians, Greeks, Mayans, Incans, and the Bible. What else do I need to give you? Here is a linky that puts it together if you need me to cite an outside source.

Ancient Astronauts (http://www.crystalinks.com/ancientastronauts.html)

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/E3y5h24sWuw&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/E3y5h24sWuw&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


I personally am A pilot and was a navigator on a C-130 (using a sextant and the planets/stars) in the USMC and have over 4000 hours of flying above the Earth. I have flown over the pyramids of Egypt and South America. I may or may not have been to classified government airstrips in the American Desert. I live near Cape Canaveral and have friends and family that work there. I have seen crazy unexplained shit in the sky with other people seeing the same shit. There is evidence whether you choose to believe it is a personal choice but dont deny that it is there.

[TheMojoPin]

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="3"]I have given you Stonehenge, The Pyramids, Easter Island, Cave Drawings, Religions of the Sumerians, Greeks, Mayans, Incans, and the Bible. What else do I need to give you? Here is a linky that puts it together if you need me to cite an outside source.

That's not evidence. Those are very vague theories. The manmade reasonings for those are mostly theories, but most of them have very viable manmade theories behind them that correspond to similar independent human achievements around the world and throughout time. There's not a single case of a viable "madenby aliens" situation anywhere beyond "hey, maybe aliens made this!" Jumping to aliens is like leaping from point A to point Z and totally ignoring all the more likely points in between. No, it's not IMPOSSIBLE that aliens were involved...but there are hundreds and hundreds of other theories that are far more likely and realistic.

[Gvac]

I'm open to the idea of alien visitors, but I'd ask where did they come from? Who created them?

[TheMojoPin]

Besides, a lack of understaning doesn't equal proof or evidence. I'm scientifically retarded, so to me things like physics seems like sorcery and withcraft. I couldn't begin to understand or explain it. Just because I explain it to myself as being the work of magical tiger beasts and rock monsters doesn't make it so.

[Crispy123]

That's not evidence. Those are very vague theories. The manmade reasonings for those are mostly theories, but most of them have very viable manmade theories behind them that correspond to similar independent human achievements around the world and throughout time. There's not a single case of a viable "madenby aliens" situation anywhere beyond "hey, maybe aliens made this!" Jumping to aliens is like leaping from point A to point Z and totally ignoring all the more likely points in between. No, it's not IMPOSSIBLE that aliens were involved...but there are hundreds and hundreds of other theories that are far more likely and realistic.


Main Entry: 1ev·i·dence
Pronunciation: \ˈe-və-dən(t)s, -və-ˌden(t)s\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 a: an outward sign : indication b: something that furnishes proof : testimony ; specifically : something legally submitted to a tribunal to ascertain the truth of a matter
2: one who bears witness ; especially : one who voluntarily confesses a crime and testifies for the prosecution against his accomplices


It is evidence. Whether you agree with the theory or not is different. These are signs that aliens could have been involved. I will give you that it is circumstantial and not direct evidence.

And I would love to hear you give an alternate theory that explains the same shit being created all over the world throughout recorded time with no known technology for those times.

[Dave's Cackle]

I always assume that everything in life is a learning process and we have to go through trials and lessons to grow as human beings. That may be silly but it might be true.

Under YOUR religion, you don't assume ANYTHING. Your God charts your path.

[TheMojoPin]

Main Entry: 1ev·i·dence
Pronunciation: \ˈe-və-dən(t)s, -və-ˌden(t)s\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 a: an outward sign : indication b: something that furnishes proof : testimony ; specifically : something legally submitted to a tribunal to ascertain the truth of a matter
2: one who bears witness ; especially : one who voluntarily confesses a crime and testifies for the prosecution against his accomplices


It is evidence. Whether you agree with the theory or not is different. These are signs that aliens could have been involved. I will give you that it is circumstantial and not direct evidence.

And I would love to hear you give an alternate theory that explains the same shit being created all over the world throughout recorded time with no known technology for those times.

Yeah, but when you have nothing but circumstantial evidence you often actually have next to nothing.

The most likely explanation is technology of the time that we simply have not discovered yet. Our knowledge of mankind's history is so miniscule compared to what we don't know. Granted, that does mean there could be some alien-y parts in there right now, but so far we've found zilch to back that up. What we HAVE found over and over and over again are achievements by man that we initially have no idea how it was done and then the answers slowly come together as we discover more. A lack of full understanding of anything now just means we haven't filled in the dots, but with all the things you listed we have a ton of dots already connected. The unconnected dots are, by Occam's Razor, are just manmade technology and practices of the time we haven't found yet. Assuming that those blank spots are actually aliens is logically unsound. You have to bypass so much to get to that point.

[hanso]

Quarks are what scientists presume protons, electrons, and neutrons are made up of.

No one has ever seen them, but for their theories to work, they presume their existence.

Those crazy scientists!

Believing in the existence of something they can't see or prove!
That new atom smasher shoots photons. And the resulting antimatter is being collected to assembled something never seen before ( so I have heard)

The pyramids both in Egypt and Mexico's Sun temple have the same sized base. And it is said that even with moderen technology. The great pyramid of giza could not have the stone laid in such precision.
(Lil "outside" help here)? it could very well be so.
I think this is shown in that history channel video posted above.

[thepaulo]

That new atom smasher shoots photons. And the resulting antimatter is being collected to assembled something never seen before ( so I have heard)

The pyramids both in Egypt and Mexico's Sun temple have the same sized base. And it is said that even with moderen technology. The great pyramid of giza could not have the stone laid in such precision.
(Lil "outside" help here)? it could very well be so.
I think this is shown in that history channel video posted above.

I'll have to go throught this thread very carefully to pick out some things to discuss.
I'm more interested in discussing the outer reaches of science than I am religion. Religion is a mess and God looks down and laughs.....or cries....or his energy force shudders across the wide expanse of infinity.

[TheMojoPin]

That new atom smasher shoots photons. And the resulting antimatter is being collected to assembled something never seen before ( so I have heard)

The pyramids both in Egypt and Mexico's Sun temple have the same sized base. And it is said that even with moderen technology. The great pyramid of giza could not have the stone laid in such precision.
(Lil "outside" help here)? it could very well be so.
I think this is shown in that history channel video posted above.

Or ancient man had techniques for that precision that have been lost to the ages. We've lost a massive amount of knowledge over the course of our history.

[hanso]

Or ancient man had techniques for that precision that have been lost to the ages. We've lost a massive amount of knowledge over the course of our history.
Maybe aliens let them use a killer set of tools.
But made sure to get them back when not in use.

& its not just the precisioned placement.
Its also that the location is in sand to hinder the movement.

[hanso]

I'll have to go throught this thread very carefully to pick out some things to discuss.
I'm more interested in discussing the outer reaches of science than I am religion. Religion is a mess and God looks down and laughs.....or cries....or his energy force shudders across the wide expanse of infinity.
I like that you added the unexplained to the mix.

[thepaulo]

I like that you added the unexplained to the mix.


It's mostly unexplained. Anyone who thinks we know much doesn't know much.
I was raised a Catholic and we were told God was omnipotent and all-powerful.
What does that mean exactly?

[ADF]

It's mostly unexplained. Anyone who thinks we know much doesn't know much.
I was raised a Catholic and we were told God was omnipotent and all-powerful.
What does that mean exactly?

That would mean all-powerful and all-powerful.

[docjon]

they do not get along because science finds holes in the faith. science is more logic then faith. it is kinda like sox vs yanks. while some get along, majority just hate each other and never will get along because they are set in their ways. science likes logic more than faith and religion like faith more than logic. i think they kinda touched on my point on the show so.

[thepaulo]

That would mean all-powerful and all-powerful.
and what is all-powerful...is that like the all-powerful Oz?

[Reynolds]

The new movie Angels and Demons has the Vatican killing scientists because they don't like science. This is a pet topic with me. Why can't theologians and scientists and paranormal investigators all get along and work together instead of trying to kill each other?

Thats like saying "Why don't scientists and witch doctors work together to cure aids".

[hanso]

Breaking news christ was been seen in the form of a cheese twist snack.
More on this to follow.

[thepaulo]

Breaking news christ was been seen in the form of a cheese twist snack.
More on this to follow.

More to follow....When? I need to know!

[Furtherman]

I was raised a Catholic and we were told God was omnipotent and all-powerful.
What does that mean exactly?

You were lied to.

[thepaulo]

As far as Angels and Demons is concerned, here is a limited (very limited...It's People Magazine, for you-know-who's sake) explaination of some factual errors.
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20279597,00.html

[ADF]

and what is all-powerful...is that like the all-powerful Oz?

All-powerful in this context means that God can do anything. According to this model, God's powers are limitless. He's probably running off of a ni-cad battery and an n-router.

[Crispy123]

All-powerful in this context means that God can do anything. According to this model, God's powers are limitless. He's probably running off of a ni-cad battery and an n-router.

Finally coming around and bowing to the awe inspiring God of the interwebz, Im impressed! :clap:

[K.C.]

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/lxIUJgRsC9U&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/lxIUJgRsC9U&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[RoseBlood]

My apologies if I'm repeating anything, but I'm not reading this thread.

After seeing Angels and Demons tonight, it left me feeling like there is room in this world for religion and science even though I have more faith in science.

My mother read the book a while back and said the movie was still pretty good and I want to see it again cause I think I'd get more out of it the second viewing.. OR I could just read the book, but that's not happening.

[Dave's Cackle]

As far as Angels and Demons is concerned, here is a limited (very limited...It's People Magazine, for you-know-who's sake) explaination of some factual errors.
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20279597,00.html

...you post that yet you'd give people shit for posting factual errors in your little mythical fairytale book which is the Bible.

[hanso]

omnipotent and all-powerful.
Which kinda sounds like the nosy annoying family member or friend.


<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/JQVrqC3glU0&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/JQVrqC3glU0&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>
Jesus Cheeto
No stars? most be the holly rollers voting.

[Slumbag]

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/JQVrqC3glU0&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/JQVrqC3glU0&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>
Jesus Cheeto
No stars? most be the holly rollers voting.
If someone could get this message to them, that'd be great.


IT'S A FUCKING SNACK!!! Who gives a FUCK what it kind of looks like?!?! You bought it at a gas station.

[thepaulo]

...you post that yet you'd give people shit for posting factual errors in your little mythical fairytale book which is the Bible.

I would never give anyone shit for posting factual errors in the Bible.
Clearly the Bible does not correspond to our understanding of the universe,
That's why all scientists must pay for their blashphemy.

[booster11373]

Here is a good reason why the can be considered incompatible

The family belongs to a religious group that believes in "natural" healing methods. Daniel has testified he believed chemotherapy would kill him and told the judge that if anyone tried to force him to take it, "I'd fight it. I'd punch them and I'd kick them."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090520/ap_on_re_us/us_forced_chemo

[CountryBob]

My apologies if I'm repeating anything, but I'm not reading this thread.

After seeing Angels and Demons tonight, it left me feeling like there is room in this world for religion and science even though I have more faith in science.

My mother read the book a while back and said the movie was still pretty good and I want to see it again cause I think I'd get more out of it the second viewing.. OR I could just read the book, but that's not happening.

I really enjoyed the book - you might want to give it a try. I liked the movie too - alot of burning flesh though = cool and different .

[hammersavage]

Oh, she's not reading nothing

[Furtherman]

Why People Believe Invisible Agents Control the World (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=skeptic-agenticity)

A Skeptic's take on souls, spirits, ghosts, gods, demons, angels, aliens and other invisible powers that be

An excellent article. I think if more people just realized these unexplained notions and myths were all in their head, the world would be a better off place.

“Many highly educated and intelligent individuals experience a powerful sense that there are patterns, forces, energies and entities operating in the world,” Hood explains. “More important, such experiences are not substantiated by a body of reliable evidence, which is why they are supernatural and unscientific. The inclination or sense that they may be real is our supersense.”

We are natural-born supernaturalists.

[Dave's Cackle]

I would never give anyone shit for posting factual errors in the Bible.
Clearly the Bible does not correspond to our understanding of the universe,
That's why all scientists must pay for their blashphemy.

So you're admitting that the Bible is a work of fiction - like Dianetics. :clap::clap::clap:

[thepaulo]

Why People Believe Invisible Agents Control the World (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=skeptic-agenticity)



An excellent article. I think if more people just realized these unexplained notions and myths were all in their head, the world would be a better off place.

It is an interesting article. The theories that explain the unexplained are legion. There are theories on top of theories on top of theories.
I always feel I'm only getting a very small part of the picture so in essence it doesn't explain much.

[hanso]

Clapton is a mad scientist

[Dave's Cackle]

It is an interesting article. The theories that explain the unexplained are legion. There are theories on top of theories on top of theories.
I always feel I'm only getting a very small part of the picture so in essence it doesn't explain much.

You're getting a small part of the picture because you're unwilling to see that which you do not want to accept.

[thepaulo]

You're getting a small part of the picture because you're unwilling to see that which you do not want to accept.

It's easy to make an assumption that there is no higher being because we don't see him.
It is much harder to search for answers with an open mind.

I personally believe God greenlighted the film Bruce Almighty.

[BinaryTaoist]

It's easy to make an assumption that there is no higher being because we don't see him.
It is much harder to search for answers with an open mind.

I personally believe God greenlighted the film Bruce Almighty.


...god also greenlighted the holocaust, the Spanish inquisition, 9/11, Pearl Harbor, slavery, infanticide, sweatshops, ignorance, oppression, broken families, famine, the plague, jealousy, addiction, lonilness, holy wars, and american idol.

I understand the idea that difficulties can be used as stepping stones to higher ground that allow us to grow, but that somone good and innocent has to suffer so that you can 'learn a lesson' is incredibly arrogant of you and shallow of a deity.

Think of the millions of souls that existed before Jesus walked the earth.... They have to suffer an eternity of damnation because god took his time coming up with a solution to salvation? How about the people who existed after Jesus did but were too far away to hear the message? They have to suffer eternal damnation because they were unlucky enough to be too far away to hear it?

What a petty, pathetic god.

In truth; I think that most people who believe in god are too afraid to question its ways and so become stuck in a life of dogma.

[BinaryTaoist]

...god also greenlit hiroshima, the boxer rebellion, the tyranny of Hussein, genocide in the Sudan, tsunamis, hurricanes, tornadoes, domestic violence, child abuse, 100 years war, Columbine, extinction of native americans, human sacrifice, the great depression, the potato famine, the assasination of kennedy, Salem witch trials, false imprisonment, African apartheid... and thousands of other terrible events that aren't on the top of my mind or are unknown to me...

[Gvac]

...god also greenlit hiroshima, the boxer rebellion, the tyranny of Hussein, genocide in the Sudan, tsunamis, hurricanes, tornadoes, domestic violence, child abuse, 100 years war, Columbine, extinction of native americans, human sacrifice, the great depression, the potato famine, the assasination of kennedy, Salem witch trials, false imprisonment, African apartheid... and thousands of other terrible events that aren't on the top of my mind or are unknown to me...

Have fun burning in hell, Satanist!

[BinaryTaoist]

...I would have enjoyed the reply more if it came from I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD

[booster11373]

...god also greenlighted the holocaust, the Spanish inquisition, 9/11, Pearl Harbor, slavery, infanticide, sweatshops, ignorance, oppression, broken families, famine, the plague, jealousy, addiction, lonilness, holy wars, and american idol.

I understand the idea that difficulties can be used as stepping stones to higher ground that allow us to grow, but that somone good and innocent has to suffer so that you can 'learn a lesson' is incredibly arrogant of you and shallow of a deity.

Think of the millions of souls that existed before Jesus walked the earth.... They have to suffer an eternity of damnation because god took his time coming up with a solution to salvation? How about the people who existed after Jesus did but were too far away to hear the message? They have to suffer eternal damnation because they were unlucky enough to be too far away to hear it?

What a petty, pathetic god.

In truth; I think that most people who believe in god are too afraid to question its ways and so become stuck in a life of dogma.

Hence the all powerful and loving God crap

[thepaulo]

Have fun burning in hell, Satanist!

He's not a Satanist. He's a nothingist.

[BinaryTaoist]

He's not a Satanist. He's a nothingist.

Do you derive your spiritual beliefs the same way you judge me? Based on feeling over evidence?


Edit--->case in point... why would a nothingist (a nihilist?) go by the handle 'BinaryDaoist'?

[Gvac]

Do you derive your spiritual beliefs the same way you judge me? Based on feeling over evidence?


Edit--->case in point... why would a nothingist (a nihilist?) go by the handle 'BinaryDaoist'?

You spelled your own name wrong.

Satan has jumbled your mind, my friend.

Go towards the light.

[BinaryTaoist]

So will gods wrath be towards me, or to the devil who jumbled my mind?

...and pinyin vs. wade giles is a discussion for another thread...

[Gvac]

So will gods wrath be towards me, or to the devil who jumbled my mind?

...and pinyin vs. wade giles is a discussion for another thread...

That depends on whether you prefer to debate in Mandarin or Cantonese, my possessed friend.

[thepaulo]

Do you derive your spiritual beliefs the same way you judge me? Based on feeling over evidence?


Edit--->case in point... why would a nothingist (a nihilist?) go by the handle 'BinaryDaoist'?

Nothingist is not a word and that's why it's funny.

Actually, I'm enjoying the agnostic debate.

My philosophy is simple. All the religions are in conflict but they all have germs of wisdom.
But obviously, I'm an agnostic in that I simply do not know.
I have put my faith in Jesus because everything he said had real wisdom.

Having faith despite not knowing is a simple act.
I have gone on journeys looking for truth and I know I'll never find it in this life.

see meaning of life thread for more answers

http://www.ronfez.net/forums/showthread.php?t=66623

[hanso]

All-powerful in this context means that God can do anything. According to this model, God's powers are limitless. He's probably running off of a ni-cad battery and an n-router.
According to the Dishwalla song he is a she.

[thepaulo]

No one can say it's impossible to travel in time by jumping to other dimensions....I don't care what Alan Alda says.

[thepaulo]

I'm reading Heaven and Hell by Swedenborg. He talks about his visits to Heaven with logical and scientific precision.






Emanuel Swedenborg (help·info) (born Emanuel Swedberg; February 8, 1688[1]–March 29, 1772) was a Swedish scientist, philosopher, Christian mystic,[2][3] and theologian. Swedenborg had a prolific career as an inventor and scientist. At the age of fifty-six he entered into a spiritual phase in which he experienced dreams and visions. This culminated in a spiritual awakening, where he claimed he was appointed by the Lord to write a heavenly doctrine to reform Christianity. He claimed that the Lord had opened his eyes, so that from then on he could freely visit heaven and hell, and talk with angels, demons, and other spirits. For the remaining 28 years of his life, he wrote and published 18 theological works, of which the best known was Heaven and Hell (1758),[4] and several unpublished theological works.

Swedenborg explicitly rejected the common explanation of the Trinity as a Trinity of Persons, which he said was not taught in the early Christian Church. Instead he explained in his theological writings how the Divine Trinity exists in One Person, in One God, the Lord Jesus Christ. Swedenborg also rejected the doctrine of salvation through faith alone, since he considered both faith and charity necessary for salvation, not one without the other. The purpose of faith, according to Swedenborg, is to lead a person to a life according to the truths of faith, which is charity.

Swedenborg's theological writings have elicited a range of responses. Toward the end of his life, small reading groups formed in England and Sweden to study the truth they saw in his teachings and several writers were influenced by him, including William Blake (though he ended up renouncing him), Elizabeth Barrett Browning, August Strindberg, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Charles Baudelaire, Balzac, William Butler Yeats, Sheridan Le Fanu, Jorge Luis Borges and Carl Jung. The theologian Henry James Sr. was also a follower of his teachings, as were Johnny Appleseed and Helen Keller.

In contrast, one of the most prominent Swedish authors of Swedenborg's day, Johan Henrik Kellgren, called Swedenborg "nothing but a fool".[5] A heresy trial was initiated in Sweden in 1768 against Swedenborg's writings and two men who promoted these ideas.[6]

In the two centuries since Swedenborg's death, various interpretations of his theology have been made, and he has also been scrutinized in biographies and psychological studies.[7]

[thepaulo]

I just finished the book. He's on to something.
Spent 13 years dragged through heaven and hell talking to angels and spirits before writing this book. He knows what he's talking about. He said Jesus chose him for the job.




(Seriously, I know you think the man is probably a complete lunatic but the book is very methodical and serious....not a ranting and raving kind of book.)

[scottinnj]

Let's compromise and kill the scientologists.

My nomination for post of the month.
:clap:

[hanso]

Mj is gone. There is one less now.

[thepaulo]

Mj is gone. There is one less now.

What religion was MJ?

[Gvac]

What religion was MJ?

He was raised a Jehovah's Witness but supposedly converted to Islam last year.

Who knows.

[thepaulo]

He was raised a Jehovah's Witness but supposedly converted to Islam last year.

Who knows.

Wasn't Prince a JH for a while? It's an interesting if slightly wacky religion.

[thepaulo]

coming back to Angels and Demons and The Davinci Code.....Dan Brown is back with the Lost Symbol and is again trying to make connections between Science and Religion

Here is a brief synopsis of the new book and future Tom hanks movie.

http://www.livescience.com/culture/090917-lost-symbol.html

[TooLowBrow]

coming back to Angels and Demons and The Davinci Code.....Dan Brown is back with the Lost Symbol and is again trying to make connections between Science and Religion

Here is a brief synopsis of the new book and future Tom hanks movie.

http://www.livescience.com/culture/090917-lost-symbol.html

thats on my summer reading list for next year, along with cam jansen and the rainy day mystery and encyclopedia brown figures it out yet again

[underdog]

coming back to Angels and Demons and The Davinci Code.....Dan Brown is back with the Lost Symbol and is again trying to make connections between Science and Religion

Here is a brief synopsis of the new book and future Tom hanks movie.

http://www.livescience.com/culture/090917-lost-symbol.html

I know I should hate the books, but I hate reading and the only things I can stand to read are Dan Brown books. I have no idea why, but I love them.

[TooLowBrow]

I know I should hate the books, but I hate reading and the only things I can stand to read are Dan Brown books. I have no idea why, but I love them.

They're fun and action packed

and better written than most of the crap out there.

[underdog]

They're fun and action packed

and better written than most of the crap out there.

They are almost impossible to put down. I never want to stop reading them.

I've probably only read 8 books in the last 10 years, and 4 of them are Dan Brown books.

[hanso]

Those who like the Unexplained. Sure get railed on a lot.
The mainstream media tends to get bland very fast for me.
Why go along with the crowd, when there is so much more out there?

[thepaulo]

Those who like the Unexplained. Sure get railed on a lot.
The mainstream media tends to get bland very fast for me.
Why go along with the crowd, when there is so much more out there?

The truth is out there.

[thepaulo]

A science professor begins his school year with a lecture to the students, 'Let me explain the problem science has with religion.' The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

'You're a Christian, aren't you, son?'
'Yes sir,' the student says.

'So you believe in God?'
'Absolutely.'

'Is God good?'
'Sure! God's good.'

'Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?'
'Yes.'

'Are you good or evil?'
'The Bible says I'm evil.'

The professor grins knowingly. 'Aha! The Bible!' He considers for a moment. 'Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?'

'Yes sir, I would.'

'So you're good...!'
'I wouldn't say that.'

'But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't.'

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. 'He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?'

The student remains silent.

'No, you can't, can you?' the professor says.. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.

'Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?'
'Er...yes,' the student says.

'Is Satan good?'
The student doesn't hesitate on this one. 'No.'

'Then where does Satan come from?'
The student falters. 'From God'

'That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?'
'Yes, sir.'

'Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?'

'Yes.'

'So who created evil?' The professor continued, 'If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil.'

Again, the student has no answer. 'Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?'

The student squirms on his feet. 'Yes.'

'So who created them?'

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. 'Who created them?' There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. 'Tell me,' he continues onto another student. 'Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?'

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. 'Yes, professor, I do.'

The old man stops pacing. 'Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?'

'No sir. I've never seen Him.'

'Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?'
'No, sir, I have not.'

'Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?'

'No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't.'
'Yet you still believe in him?'
'Yes.'

'According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?'

'Nothing,' the student replies. 'I only have my faith.'
'Yes, faith,' the professor repeats. 'And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith.'

At the back of the room another student stands quietly for a moment before asking a question of His own. 'Professor, is there such thing as heat?'

'Yes,' the professor replies. 'There's heat.'

'And is there such a thing as cold?'
'Yes, son, there's cold too.'
'No sir, there isn't.'

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. 'You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees.'

'Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.'

Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

'What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?'

'Yes,' the professor replies without hesitation. 'What is night if it isn't darkness?'

'You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word.'

'In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?'

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. 'So what point are you making, young man?'

'Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.'

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. 'Flawed? Can you explain how?'

'You are working on the premise of duality,' the student explains. 'You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought.'

'It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.'

'Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?'

'If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do.'

'Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?'

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

'Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?'

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.

'To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean.'

The student looks around the room. 'Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?' The class breaks out into laughter.

'Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir.'

'So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?'

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.

Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. 'I guess you'll have to take them on faith.'

'Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,' the student continues. 'Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?'

Now uncertain, the professor responds, 'Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.'

To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.'

The professor sat down.

[underdog]

A science professor begins his school year with a lecture to the students, 'Let me explain the problem science has with religion.' The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

'You're a Christian, aren't you, son?'
'Yes sir,' the student says.

'So you believe in God?'
'Absolutely.'

'Is God good?'
'Sure! God's good.'

'Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?'
'Yes.'

'Are you good or evil?'
'The Bible says I'm evil.'

The professor grins knowingly. 'Aha! The Bible!' He considers for a moment. 'Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?'

'Yes sir, I would.'

'So you're good...!'
'I wouldn't say that.'

'But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't.'

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. 'He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?'

The student remains silent.

'No, you can't, can you?' the professor says.. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.

'Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?'
'Er...yes,' the student says.

'Is Satan good?'
The student doesn't hesitate on this one. 'No.'

'Then where does Satan come from?'
The student falters. 'From God'

'That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?'
'Yes, sir.'

'Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?'

'Yes.'

'So who created evil?' The professor continued, 'If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil.'

Again, the student has no answer. 'Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?'

The student squirms on his feet. 'Yes.'

'So who created them?'

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. 'Who created them?' There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. 'Tell me,' he continues onto another student. 'Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?'

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. 'Yes, professor, I do.'

The old man stops pacing. 'Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?'

'No sir. I've never seen Him.'

'Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?'
'No, sir, I have not.'

'Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?'

'No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't.'
'Yet you still believe in him?'
'Yes.'

'According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?'

'Nothing,' the student replies. 'I only have my faith.'
'Yes, faith,' the professor repeats. 'And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith.'

At the back of the room another student stands quietly for a moment before asking a question of His own. 'Professor, is there such thing as heat?'

'Yes,' the professor replies. 'There's heat.'

'And is there such a thing as cold?'
'Yes, son, there's cold too.'
'No sir, there isn't.'

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. 'You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees.'

'Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.'

Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

'What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?'

'Yes,' the professor replies without hesitation. 'What is night if it isn't darkness?'

'You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word.'

'In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?'

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. 'So what point are you making, young man?'

'Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.'

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. 'Flawed? Can you explain how?'

'You are working on the premise of duality,' the student explains. 'You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought.'

'It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.'

'Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?'

'If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do.'

'Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?'

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

'Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?'

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.

'To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean.'

The student looks around the room. 'Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?' The class breaks out into laughter.

'Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir.'

'So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?'

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.

Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. 'I guess you'll have to take them on faith.'

'Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,' the student continues. 'Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?'

Now uncertain, the professor responds, 'Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.'

To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.'

The professor sat down.

Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[thepaulo]

Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

That's one way of looking at it.

[Charlie_Don't_Surf]

That's one way of looking at it.

I found it funny.

[GregoryJoseph]

I loved that little story, Paul.

I find it endlessly amusing that the people who claim to believe in "science" so easily discredit any other theories.

I have seen (and done) things that science would claim is impossible.

[Charlie_Don't_Surf]

I loved that little story, Paul.

I find it endlessly amusing that the people who claim to believe in "science" so easily discredit any other theories.

I have seen (and done) things that science would claim is impossible.

Fucked a chick? Because I know that would be impossible for you.

[GregoryJoseph]

Fucked a chick? Because I know that would be impossible for you.

Ha!

My young friend, I have been making love to women since before you were born, and that's the truth, not an exaggeration.

The things I have seen and done are far more mysterious and fascinating than male/female copulation, though.

[underdog]

The things I have seen and done are far more mysterious and fascinating than male/female copulation, though.

Anal?

[thepaulo]

Anal?

spiritual anal

[Furtherman]

He uses astral glide.

[thepaulo]

The crazy cripple, Stephen Hawkings done it again.

God didn't create the Universe.

http://www.aolnews.com/science/article/god-has-no-role-in-universe-says-stephen-hawking/19618260?flv=1

"The Grand Design," which goes on sale next week, is a significant shift away from Hawking's previous comments on the divine. In his 1988 best-seller, "A Brief History of Time," he suggested that it was possible to believe in the concept of God as creator and also hold a scientific view of the universe. "If we do discover a complete theory ... of why it is that we and the universe exist ... it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason -- for then we would know the mind of God," he wrote.

http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9501/bigbang2.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1308278/Stephen-Hawking-God-did-create-Universe.html

[thepaulo]

This book might be on to something.

http://www.mydaily.com/2011/02/02/science-behind-near-death-experiences/

[Pitdoc]

How else could you explain GAP???????????

[keithy_19]

Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

I laughed.

I've never had that experience with a teacher. Though, a teacher (biology) at my high school had said to one class that by the end of the class she will have disproved the existence of God.

The room smelt of dead baby pigs so in a way she was right.

[thepaulo]

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/4341/debate-over-dark-energy-reality-reignited

Do I file this under science or the unexplained?

[StanUpshaw]

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/4341/debate-over-dark-energy-reality-reignited

Do I file this under science or the unexplained?

File it under theoretical physics where it's always been.

[thepaulo]

File it under theoretical physics where it's always been.

Theoretical physics is just a bunch of hocus pocus mumbo jumbo muttered by a bunch of insane witch doctors.

[StanUpshaw]

I have no idea whether you're serious or joking.

[thepaulo]

I have no idea whether you're serious or joking.

You probably picked up that I am of two minds.
I am fascinated that their mathematical equations (hocus pocus mumbo jumbo)
can envisions complex and fantastical scenarios.

I'm also aware that they are frequently wrong )leading me to think they are insane.

I'm reading Hawkins The Grand Design now...whoa boy.

[StanUpshaw]

Just for discussion's sake, what is your definition of "unexplained"?

[thepaulo]

Just for discussion's sake, what is your definition of "unexplained"?

Let's say all scientific knowledge up to this time is given a percentage to actual potential knowledge.
I would say we know about 0.001 %. The other 99.99% is unexplained.
All the great minds should be humble and not pretend that they are on the cusp of knowing everything.
We know nothing.
Just for an example, both inner space and outer space are full of infinite mysteries.
Then add in the potential of infinite dimensions with different laws of physics.
It's all fantasyland.
In other words, to our puny minds it's hocus pocus mumbo jumbo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity

[thepaulo]

our brains are too puny to do the impossible, but you know who can.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics_of_the_Impossible

[StanUpshaw]

Let's say all scientific knowledge up to this time is given a percentage to actual potential knowledge.
I would say we know about 0.001 %. The other 99.99% is unexplained.
All the great minds should be humble and not pretend that they are on the cusp of knowing everything.
We know nothing.
Just for an example, both inner space and outer space are full of infinite mysteries.
Then add in the potential of infinite dimensions with different laws of physics.
It's all fantasyland.
In other words, to our puny minds it's hocus pocus mumbo jumbo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity

I don't know what to say about the 99% thing. It's as silly to say that as it would be to say we know everything. We don't know what we don't know, so you can't quantify it.

And I'm not sure you can use any argument about different dimensions, since they're just made up as explanations of observed phenomena. To unravel the physics that we see, they have hypothesized these unproven strings/dimensions/universes so that the observations of our world gel with one another.

It's not like someone said, "Hey Hawking...whaddya bet there's a whole bunch of other dimensions out there...chew on that, nerdlinger!"

From what you're saying, it seems like you're imagining the tail wagging the dog. It isn't that the dimensions exist, and we're left scratching our head about how they work...we're scratching our head about how THIS universe works, and the extra dimensions and whatnot are potential explanations of how our observational data can be reconciled.

[keithy_19]

"On Monday and Tuesday, students of every grade were taught what the school called age-appropriate lessons about gender differences. Some lessons included all-girl geckos, a transgender clownfish, and boy snakes who act "girly" reports the San Francisco Chronicle."

:huh:

[keithy_19]

From what you're saying, it seems like you're imagining the tail wagging the dog. It isn't that the dimensions exist, and we're left scratching our head about how they work...we're scratching our head about how THIS universe works, and the extra dimensions and whatnot are potential explanations of how our observational data can be reconciled.

http://optimalbranddevelopment.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/wag-the-dog.jpg

[thepaulo]

I don't know what to say about the 99% thing. It's as silly to say that as it would be to say we know everything. We don't know what we don't know, so you can't quantify it.

And I'm not sure you can use any argument about different dimensions, since they're just made up as explanations of observed phenomena. To unravel the physics that we see, they have hypothesized these unproven strings/dimensions/universes so that the observations of our world gel with one another.

It's not like someone said, "Hey Hawking...whaddya bet there's a whole bunch of other dimensions out there...chew on that, nerdlinger!"

From what you're saying, it seems like you're imagining the tail wagging the dog. It isn't that the dimensions exist, and we're left scratching our head about how they work...we're scratching our head about how THIS universe works, and the extra dimensions and whatnot are potential explanations of how our observational data can be reconciled.


I agree. The point is that it is important to realizethat scratching our head is what we'll be doing for the next 10,000 years (another arbitrary number).

[thepaulo]

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/186270/20110725/scientists-see-hint-of-higgs-boson-god-particle.htm


God is waiting. He would like us to get a clue.

[StanUpshaw]

You're being cryptic again.

[thepaulo]

You're being cryptic again.

sorry....
Assuming there is a God who is infinately greater than us (which I tend to do so shoot me)
He sees our primative little attempts at unlockking the secrets of the universe and knows we are very very far away from being anything resembling an advanced intelligence.
We must be an enormous dissappointment. He gave us free will and we fucked it all up.
He realizes we will probably destroy ourselves before we ever do get a clue.
We can't even figure out something simple like peace on Earth. We are pathetic.
God should just put us out of our misery.

[StanUpshaw]

If he thinks the LHC guys are fuckups, imagine how he sees you!

[Furtherman]

sorry....
Assuming there is a God who is infinately greater than us (which I tend to do so shoot me)
He sees our primative little attempts at unlockking the secrets of the universe and knows we are very very far away from being anything resembling an advanced intelligence.
We must be an enormous dissappointment. He gave us free will and we fucked it all up.
He realizes we will probably destroy ourselves before we ever do get a clue.
We can't even figure out something simple like peace on Earth. We are pathetic.
God should just put us out of our misery.

This is where you fail Paulo. You're assuming a god that is infinite. You talk as if he's feeling the passage of time and waiting for us to do something.

If he's infinite, there is no passage of time for him. There's no looking at his celestial watch and thinking "those apes are still barely out of the trees, why haven't they discovered cold fusion yet?!"

You assign human characteristics to this infinite being, which is understandable, since it was humans who made him up in the first place.

If you truly believe in an infinite being, you have to accept him as one.

[thepaulo]

If he thinks the LHC guys are fuckups, imagine how he sees you!

He loves us and thinks we are all fuckups and yes, I am the fuckuup of all fuckups.

[thepaulo]

This is where you fail Paulo. You're assuming a god that is infinite. You talk as if he's feeling the passage of time and waiting for us to do something.

If he's infinite, there is no passage of time for him. There's no looking at his celestial watch and thinking "those apes are still barely out of the trees, why haven't they discovered cold fusion yet?!"

You assign human characteristics to this infinite being, which is understandable, since it was humans who made him up in the first place.

If you truly believe in an infinite being, you have to accept him as one.


We start with the basic understanding that we don't know.
Then some say there is no god and some say there is a God.
Then we discuss it from the human perspective.
The Bible is clearly told from the human perspective of over 2000 years ago and most of it is mostly meaningless today.

I am not a Bible person but I understand how it could fit into God's plan for the World.
I realize it is easy to dismiss God since he does not interact with us.

Still there is no proof that God does not exist or that he is not infinite.
Again even talking about terms like infinity is ridiculous since human brains cannot possibly comprehend what that really is.
But what bothers me most is that even simple concepts are beyond us.
What was the one thing that Jesus said that we all must do.
Love God and love your fellow man.
simple right but we suck at it.

[CountryBob]

It would be so much easier if Jesus or God showed up, held a press conference and proved that they were real. We would have an easier time believing and living right knowing that we really will be juged in the afterlife.

[thepaulo]

It would be so much easier if Jesus or God showed up, held a press conference and proved that they were real. We would have an easier time believing and living right knowing that we really will be juged in the afterlife.

I agree but what you gonna do.
God's being difficult. That's his perogative.

[Furtherman]

God's being difficult. That's his perogative.

Again, assigning human traits to something you even said yourself we can't comprehend. Such a diety would not know "difficult".

[StanUpshaw]

I want to make a "god of the GAPs" joke, but I can't think of one.

[thepaulo]

Again, assigning human traits to something you even said yourself we can't comprehend. Such a diety would not know "difficult".

I was making a little joke with CountryBob who was making a little joke with me.
But yes....I do not comprehend God and I will never be able to.

[thepaulo]

I've said it before but,
I'm gonna say it again.
Atheists are idiots,
agnostics are not.

[StanUpshaw]

They're idiots because they believe in a dogma without solid evidence?

[hanso]

I've said it before but,
I'm gonna say it again.
Atheists are idiots,
agnostics are not.

Would you rather have an Atheist Prez or a God squader?

[Bowel]

Hey Paul O, will you be reviewing Cowboys and Aliens?

[thepaulo]

Hey Paul O, will you be reviewing Cowboys and Aliens?

anything for you, Bowel.

[thepaulo]

I wish someone from the sky would come down and explain it all to me so I could tell everyone else.

[Furtherman]

I wish someone from the sky would come down and explain it all to me so I could tell everyone else.

Are you that lost in your own life that you need an outside sourse to "explain" it all to you? Could there not be anything more than the present you are dealing with?

[StanUpshaw]

You have to be "lost" to want an explanation? That's retarded.

[keithy_19]

Would you rather have an Atheist Prez or a God squader?

Is he an thiest that constantly makes it known that he's an athiest? Or do they just not believe in God and don't make an issue of it?

[Bob Impact]

Is he an thiest that constantly makes it known that he's an athiest? Or do they just not believe in God and don't make an issue of it?

Either way if it gets stem cell research moving and stops the bullshit arguments about gay marriage, don't ask don't tell and abortion he could wear an "I don't believe in God" hat and I wouldn't care.

[thepaulo]

No question religious nuts are destroying the world but don't hold that against the man in the sky.

[DOHO@HOME]

Unexplained why is there so many church owned hospital's shouldn't they rely on the big man upstairs in the deep blue sky to heal whatever sickness you might have?

[Furtherman]

You have to be "lost" to want an explanation? That's retarded.

He screams "lost" with every post.

[StanUpshaw]

I thought he screamed "cunt"???

[thepaulo]

God is messing with the laws of physics.
Anything is possible now.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44629271/ns/technology_and_science-science/?gt1=43001

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/23/science/23speed.html

[disneyspy]

i guess all these theories were just theories,i'm going to go kick my high school psyshics teacher in the balls for wasting my time with no pizza

[thepaulo]

i guess all these theories were just theories,i'm going to go kick my high school psyshics teacher in the balls for wasting my time with no pizza

Soon the stuff that happens in Fringe will be real.

[cougarjake13]

Soon the stuff that happens in Fringe will be real.

not if terminator happens first

[StanUpshaw]

not if terminator happens first

It's time travel. "First" is a meaningless concept.

[cougarjake13]

It's time travel. "First" is a meaningless concept.

true

then not if terminator happens before fringe and were consciously able to know what happened before what

[thepaulo]

There seems to be no end to how crazy those mad scientists are,

http://www.telegram.com/article/20111102/NEWS/111029372/1011

[Furtherman]

There seems to be no end to how crazy those mad scientists are,

http://www.telegram.com/article/20111102/NEWS/111029372/1011

Neither crazy, nor mad.

[thepaulo]

Neither crazy, nor mad.

agreed BUT
Quantum Physics is dipping into the realm of the impossible.

a plethora of multiverses that stretch into infinity and yet are intertwined with ours

[Furtherman]

agreed BUT
Quantum Physics is dipping into the realm of the impossible.

a plethora of multiverses that stretch into infinity and yet are intertwined with ours

Yep. You should read Brian Greene's books. He explains all that in simple terms.

[KnoxHarrington]

By the way, the "neutrinos going faster than light" study looks like it's bullshit.

http://www.nature.com/news/2011/111020/full/news.2011.605.html

[KnoxHarrington]

Yep. You should read Brian Greene's books. He explains all that in simple terms.

Quantum physics/string theory is a very rigorous, very complex field of study that insists on observable, provable data as much as any other form of science. it shouldn't be reduced to "Duuuuuuuuuude there's an alternate universe where I'm totally President of the World and I'm banging Angelina Jolie" pothead nonsense.

[thepaulo]

Quantum physics/string theory is a very rigorous, very complex field of study that insists on observable, provable data as much as any other form of science. it shouldn't be reduced to "Duuuuuuuuuude there's an alternate universe where I'm totally President of the World and I'm banging Angelina Jolie" pothead nonsense.

If Iwere President of the World Jolie would be down on the list of people I'd bang but dude it would still be cool.

[StanUpshaw]

If Iwere President of the World Jolie would be down on the list of people I'd bang but dude it would still be cool.

Not in THAT universe, jerkass!

[hanso]

agreed BUT
Quantum Physics is dipping into the realm of the impossible.

a plethora of multiverses that stretch into infinity and yet are intertwined with ours

http://i.imgur.com/En4MR.jpg (http://imgur.com/En4MR)

[thepaulo]

Not in THAT universe, jerkass!

Why is another version of me having a better time?

[Furtherman]

Quantum physics/string theory is a very rigorous, very complex field of study that insists on observable, provable data as much as any other form of science. it shouldn't be reduced to "Duuuuuuuuuude there's an alternate universe where I'm totally President of the World and I'm banging Angelina Jolie" pothead nonsense.

It's not reduced to that at all in his books.

[hanso]

Can't stand these groups that have to meddle into things that have passed like gambling. The high and mighty ones with "Family" in their names feeling a need to impose on the same public that voted it in.

[keithy_19]

I'm not smart enough nor high enough to add anything to this conversation.

[thepaulo]

I'm not smart enough nor high enough to add anything to this conversation.

In another universe you are.

[hanso]

Detroit Prayer Event Puts Muslim Community on Edge
the call
"..the decade-old organization has characterized Detroit as a "microcosm of our national crisis" including the "rising tide of the Islamic movement,"

Recent visitors have included Florida pastor Terry Jones; members of the Westboro Baptist Church; and the Acts 17 Apologetics, missionaries who were arrested for disorderly conduct last year at Dearborn's Arab International Festival but were later acquitted.


"The (prayer) gathering at Ford Field starts Friday and hopes to tackle issues such as the economy, race, same-sex marriage and abortion."

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/11/detroit-prayer-event-puts-muslim-community-on-edge/?intcmp=trending

[keithy_19]

In another universe you are.

Other universe me is leaps and bounds better than this universe me.