fezident
03-19-2009, 12:58 PM
This is a 33 minute interview with Gene Simmons and Bob Lefsetz. It's raw... real... honest... and quite interesting.
This clip has it all. Name calling. Name DROPPING. Personal attacks. And most importantly... it contains ACTUAL FACTS. It's two dudes that hate each other who have an (almost) civilized discussion. Bravo.
To sum up:
Record labels are becoming an endangered species, and the question we're all asking is; "what can we do to prevent it from happening?"
How can we break bands? How can we PROMOTE bands? There are soooo many bands and outlets now, that breaking ONE is nearly impossible. And even if that band can somehow have a "hit", how can it generate any revenue? And more importantly .... how can a band have any longevity if nobody's willing to pay for something they love??
In this interview, we see Gene Simmons and Bob go head to head about "the old way of doing things" and coming up with a new business model.
This is a true debate. No moderator. No proctor. Just two dudes with opposing viewpoints, a lot of experience, and a lot of passion.
I look forward to your comments.
I only ask that you watch the whole thing because... the tables turn many many times.
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paulisded
03-19-2009, 01:11 PM
To really understand what's going on here, you have to read what went on that led to this debate. Gene spoke at a record company convention in Canada, and Bob wrote this about his appearance (I know, this is long but it's good stuff):
> Imagine you're stranded on a desert island and you stumble upon a
> member of the opposite sex. You're thrilled! You're gonna have
> someone to talk to, you're gonna make love until the Coast Guard
> finally figures out your ship sank and rescues you.
>
> And this person may not be a beauty queen, but hey, he or she is all
> right. At least that's what you think at first. Maybe you even
> have sex and forget your plight for a moment or two. But then, even
> though you're exhausted, your partner just won't give up. Insists
> on having sex every hour, being coddled, all the while telling you
> how fucking hot they are. It would almost be enough to get you to
> jump back into the water and swim to your death.
>
> That's what listening to Gene Simmons is like.
>
> He's not a dumb dude. But it's a full time commercial. And why?
> Doesn't he have enough money? Isn't this like an ex-President
> buying time on television to give us his opinion on the budget?
> Running for an office he can't be elected to? Hey Gene, you were a
> star once, can you let it go? Can you stop trying to convince us
> that not only is your music great, but that KISS is the biggest act
> in the world?
>
> I mean if we really want to get down to it, don't we have to give
> credit to Bob Ezrin? The producer of "Destroyer", containing the
> KISS klassics "Detroit Rock City", "Shout It Out Loud" and the
> band's biggest hit, "Beth"? Not only did Ezrin produce those
> tracks, HE CO-WROTE THEM! I'm thinking without Ezrin, KISS is a
> footnote.
>
> Ezrin went on to further greatness, producing one of the biggest
> albums of all time, Pink Floyd's "The Wall", as well as the
> critically lauded debut of Peter Gabriel. KISS? They took the
> makeup off and put it back on, reunited with the original members,
> kicked them out again and kept dunning us with endless product
> promotions.
>
> And that's what this "keynote" address at CMW was. A product
> promotion, for the latest iteration of Simmons Records.
>
> Just because you're a big musical act, that doesn't mean you're a
> decent executive, that you can run a record company. That's like
> saying a great football coach has to have been a star quarterback.
> They're different skills. One that Mr. Simmons has yet to master.
> Sure, he made that demo tape with Van Halen, but the band ended up
> on WARNER BROTHERS!
>
> Truly, it was relentless. Gene with that bizarre hairdo sponsored
> by Brillo maintaining that 360 deals are good for artists and that
> Canada can be the new Ireland. U2 came from Ireland, what does that
> country possess that Canada does not? Isn't that like saying Mutt
> Lange came from Rhodesia, therefore Lithuania should be able to
> produce the best record producer on the planet?
>
> Really, it didn't have to be 2009, it could have been 1009. With a
> huckster up on stage, trying to convince us to buy from him. Sure,
> there's salesmanship involved in becoming a successful musical act,
> but that's not ninety percent of the equation. But with KISS, it
> is! The music is just the vehicle to make money. I don't excoriate
> this, I just don't REVERE IT!
>
> Gene showed a five minute promotional film that was such an assault,
> the guy in front of me put his hands over his ears. Didn't Pete
> Townshend sing "A Little Is Enough"? Obviously, Gene's never heard
> that track, otherwise he would stop telling us how great he is and
> let us come to our own conclusion.
>
> It was sad. Although Gene paid lip service to the Internet, it was
> like he wanted to jet back to the seventies, when the label was
> king, when record companies were flush with cash that they'd blow on
> a bunch of new acts. Those days are through. Shit, imagine trying
> to get money from Simmons' company. That'd be like sucking quarters
> from a parking meter. Gene's notorious for not parting with his own
> money. Shit, I'm stunned he doesn't require new acts to pay HIM to
> be signed!
>
> I only went because the last couple of times Gene's spoken he has
> said some truly heinous things, blasting the audience, that he told
> us today to respect, for stealing his music. I figured he'd come
> out with a few clunkers that would crack you up.
>
> But all I got was a damn advertisement.
>
> I know Gene loves that I'm writing this. Almost to the point where
> I considered not writing about his speech at all. But I've got to.
> Because in order for music to ascend to its rightful position at the
> top of popular culture's leader board, it's got to be more about its
> intrinsic value than the sell. It's got to be more about music than
> showmanship. It's got to be more about creativity than expediency.
>
> KISS had a gimmick. It's served the band well. A gimmick can get
> you noticed, but soon thereafter it becomes about the music. KISS
> took off its makeup and few cared. The Beatles gave up their suits,
> messed with their hair, even gave up playing live and the band got
> bigger and bigger.
>
> The problem is, Gene Simmons thinks there's a handbook. Listening
> to him is like watching a bad version of "Glengarry Glen Ross".
> It's like going to a training session for Kirby vacuum salesmen.
> It's always interesting to hear how another person made it, but if
> you want to be successful in the future, you're better off ignoring
> everything Gene Simmons has to say. Unless, of course, you love
> money more than music.
>
> But since you're reading this, I doubt that...
Gene (or his people) read this rant, and issued a challenge in this response:
> From: Gene Simmons
> Subject: Re: Gene Simmons
> Date: March 12, 2009 3:25:07 PM EDT (CA)
> To: Telma.Costa@umusic.com
> Cc: Bob Lefsetz
>
> Telma,
>
> I'm cc-ing whoever this Lefsetz guy is.
>
> Post on cover of SIMMONS RECORDS.COM.
>
> And, if you can find a foto of this bozo, put it up there as well.
>
> ____________________________________
>
> Begin forwarded message:
> From: Bob Lefsetz
>
> Before we start this review of my Keynote Speech at CMS from a guy
> who's blog was forwarded to me, I'm going to take the liberty of
> telling everyone I'm going to comment as we go along.
>
> First, the name LEFSETZ. I would tell him to his face. That name's
> gotta go. It blows. If this guy was in a band and wanted to sign
> with us, he'd have to change his name. Or, sign with someone else.
> Otherwise, have no clue who this fellow is or what he does.
> Let's see.....
>
>
> "Imagine you're stranded on a desert island and you stumble upon a
> member of the opposite sex. You're thrilled! You're gonna have
> someone to talk to, you're gonna make love until the Coast Guard
> finally figures out your ship sank and rescues you.
>
> And this person may not be a beauty queen, but hey, he or she is all
> right. At least that's what you think at first. Maybe you even
> have sex and forget your plight for a moment or two. But then, even
> though you're exhausted, your partner just won't give up. Insists
> on having sex every hour, being coddled, all the while telling you
> how fucking hot they are. It would almost be enough to get you to
> jump back into the water and swim to your death.
>
> That's what listening to Gene Simmons is like."
>
> THANK YOU.
>
> "He's not a dumb dude."
>
> THANK YOU.
>
> "But it's a full time commercial."
>
> CORRECT.
>
> "And why? Doesn't he have enough money?"
>
> WELL, RESPECTFULLY, IT'S NOT UP TO THIS AMATEUR TO DETERMINE IF I
> HAVE ENOUGH MONEY. I'LL LET HIM KNOW IF AND WHEN I DO. UNTIL THAT
> TIME, IT'S BEST TO PAY ATTENTION TO YOUR OWN MONEY.
>
> "Isn't this like an ex-President buying time on television to give
> us his opinion on the budget? Running for an office he can't be
> elected to? Hey Gene, you were a star once, can you let it go? Can
> you stop trying to convince us that not only is your music great,
> but that KISS is the biggest act in the world?"
>
> NO.
>
> "I mean if we really want to get down to it, don't we have to give
> credit to Bob Ezrin?"
>
> YES. ALWAYS.
>
> "The producer of "Destroyer", containing the KISS klassics "Detroit
> Rock City", "Shout It Out Loud" and the band's biggest hit, "Beth"?
> Not only did Ezrin produce those tracks, HE CO-WROTE THEM! I'm
> thinking without Ezrin, KISS is a footnote."
>
> PERHAPS.
> OH, I FORGOT TO MENTION, KISS STARTS THE SOUTH AMERICAN LEG OF THE
> 35TH ANNIVERSARY TOUR AT BUENOS AIRES STADIUM - 90,000 PEOPLE. LET
> ME KNOW IF YOU WANT A TICKET.
>
> "Ezrin went on to further greatness, producing one of the biggest
> albums of all time, Pink Floyd's "The Wall", as well as the
> critically lauded debut of Peter Gabriel. KISS? They took the
> makeup off and put it back on, reunited with the original members,
> kicked them out again and kept dunning us with endless product
> promotions."
>
> ALL OF THIS IS TRUE. AND YOUR POINT IS..."?
>
> "And that's what this "keynote" address at CMW was. A product
> promotion, for the latest iteration of Simmons Records."
>
> CORRECT.
> I HAVE A FIDUCIARY DUTY TO UNIVERSAL MUSIC CANADA AND I HAVE A
> VESTED INTEREST IN SIMMONS RECORDS. TO DO OTHERWISE AT CMW, WOULD BE
> STUPID. I KNOW HE'S NOT INFERRING I'M STUPID. QUITE THE CONTRARY.
>
> "Just because you're a big musical act, that doesn't mean you're a
> decent executive, that you can run a record company."
>
> SAYS WHO. YOU? AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO MAKE THESE ASSESSMENTS.
> WHAT'S YOUR QUALIFICATION, IN FACT, FOR SAYING ANYTHING...
>
> "That's like saying a great football coach has to have been a star
> quarterback. They're different skills. One that Mr. Simmons has
> yet to master. Sure, he made that demo tape with Van Halen, but the
> band ended up on WARNER BROTHERS!"
>
> THIS MORON DOESN'T KNOW DETAILS AND BEHAVES AS IF HE DOES. FACT ONE:
> AFTER SEEING THE BAND AT THE STARWOOD CLUB IN LA IN 1977, I SIGNED
> VAN HALEN TO MY PRODUCTION COMPANY, "MAN OF 1,000 FACES" AND
> PRODUCED THEIR 24 TRACK DEMO, 15 SONG DEMO AT ELECTRIC LADY
> STUDIOS. KISS WAS GOING OUT ON TOUR, AND I DIDN'T WANT TO KEEP VAN
> HALEN TIED UP, SO I LET THEM SHOP THEIR OWN DEAL, WITHOUT INSISTING
> I KEEP A SLICE.
> WHAT HIS POINT ABOUT ALL THIS, IS BEYOND ME.
>
> "Truly, it was relentless. Gene with that bizarre hairdo sponsored
> by Brillo"
>
> NOW, NOW...NO NEED TO BE JEALOUS, BABY.
> JUST BECAUSE I REMEMBER YOUR MOMMY BACKSTAGE AND THEN AT THE HOTEL
> IS NO REASON TO BE ENVIOUS OF MY GOOD LOOKS.
>
> "maintaining that 360 deals are good for artists and that Canada can
> be the new Ireland."
>
> CORRECT. I "DO" BELIEVE CANADA POSSESSES ALL THAT.
>
> "U2 came from Ireland, what does that country possess that Canada
> does not? Isn't that like saying Mutt Lange came from Rhodesia,
> therefore Lithuania should be able to produce the best record
> producer on the planet?"
>
> NO. NOT REALLY. AND, I'M NOT SURE ANYONE READING THIS HAS A CLUE
> WHAT THE RHODESIA/LITHUANIA THING MEANS.
>
> "Really, it didn't have to be 2009, it could have been 1009. With a
> huckster up on stage, trying to convince us to buy from him".
>
> NOPE. NEVER SAID YOU SHOULD BUY FROM ME. DON'T LIE, HONEY.
>
> "Sure, there's salesmanship involved in becoming a successful
> musical act, but that's not ninety percent of the equation."
>
> SAYS WHO, BITCH. YOU? AND, WHAT'S THE NAME OF YOUR BAND. AND WHAT'S
> YOUR QUALIFICATION FOR SAYING OR DOING ANYTHING?
>
> "But with KISS, it is! The music is just the vehicle to make
> money. I don't excoriate this, I just don't REVERE IT!"
>
> NO PROBLEM. GO FIND ANOTHER BAND.
>
> "Gene showed a five minute promotional film that was such an
> assault, the guy in front of me put his hands over his ears."
>
> I THINK YOU MISUNDERSTOOD. THAT WAS YOUR GIRLFRIEND. AND YOU WERE
> TALKING TOO LOUD. SHE WANTED TO SEE AND HEAR GENE SIMMONS. NOT YOU.
>
> "Didn't Pete Townshend sing "A Little Is Enough"? Obviously, Gene's
> never heard that track, otherwise he would stop telling us how great
> he is and let us come to our own conclusion."
>
> NO. I WON'T STOP TELLING YOU HOW GREAT I AM. FIND SOMEONE ELSE FOR
> THAT.
>
> "It was sad."
>
> NO, IT WASN'T. EVERYONE HAD A GREAT TIME AND EVERYONE ENJOYED
> THEMSELVES.
>
> "Although Gene paid lip service to the Internet, it was like he
> wanted to jet back to the seventies, when the label was king, when
> record companies were flush with cash that they'd blow on a bunch of
> new acts."
>
> THAT'S TRUE. I WANT RECORD COMPANIES TO BECOME POWERFUL AND FLUSH
> WITH MONEY AGAIN. I WANT BANDS TO REALIZE THAT ANY ENTITY THAT GIVES
> THEM MONEY (ADVANCES) AND NEVER FORCES THEM TO PAY THE RECORD
> COMPANY BACK, WHEN AND IF THEIR RECORD BOMBS (AND THEY ALMOST ALWAYS
> DO), IS THEIR BEST FRIEND. I KNOW OF NO OTHER BUSINESS THAT GIVES
> YOU MONEY AND NEVER ASKS FOR IT BACK. EVEN YOUR MOM WILL WANT YOU TO
> PAY BACK HER LOAN.
>
> "Those days are through. Shit, imagine trying to get money from
> Simmons' company. That'd be like sucking quarters from a parking
> meter. Gene's notorious for not parting with his own money. Shit,
> I'm stunned he doesn't require new acts to pay HIM to be signed!"
>
> THIS IS A SMALL PERSON, WHO'S NEVER DONE ANYTHING, NEVER BEEN IN A
> BAND AND DOESN'T KNOW HOW THE RECORD INDUSTRY WORKS. HE DOESN'T KNOW
> ME AND I DON'T KNOW HIM. AND HE WOULDN'T KNOW, IN EITHER CASE IF I
> "DO" OR "DON'T" PART WITH MY MONEY. AND IN ANY CASE, IT WOULDN'T BE
> HIS BUSINESS, OR MY GARBAGE COLLECTOR'S.
>
> "I only went because the last couple of times Gene's spoken he has
> said some truly heinous things, blasting the audience, that he told
> us today to respect, for stealing his music. I figured he'd come
> out with a few clunkers that would crack you up.
>
> But all I got was a damn advertisement."
>
> THAT'S CORRECT.
> I AM ADVERTISING SIMMONS RECORDS. THAT'S WHY I'M UP HERE TALKING
> ABOUT IT. THIS GUY IS A GENIUS.
> AND I STILL CONSIDER FREE DOWNLOADS AND FILE SHARING STEALING. AND I
> WANT YOU TO PAY FOR MUSIC...AND FOR ANYTHING. IF A BAND WANTS TO
> GIVE AWAY THEIR STUFF FOR FREE...I HAVE NO PROBLEM. MY ONLY QUESTION
> IS, HOW DOES THE RECORD COMPANY, WHICH PAID GOOD MONEY UP FRONT, GET
> ITS MONEY BACK, IF THE MUSIC IS FREE"?
>
> "I know Gene loves that I'm writing this."
>
> SURE. I LOVE ANYONE WHO TALKS ABOUT ME.
>
> "Almost to the point where I considered not writing about his speech
> at all. But I've got to. Because in order for music to ascend to
> its rightful position at the top of popular culture's leader board,"
>
> (I CAN'T WAIT FOR THIS LEADER OF POPULAR CULTURE TO TELL ME HOW TO
> POSITION THINGS).
>
> "it's got to be more about its intrinsic value than the sell."
>
> YES, AND NO. IT "SHOULD" BE ABOUT MUSIC, BUT IT'S ALSO GOT TO BE
> ABOUT BUSINESS. IN CASE YOU HAVEN'T NOTICED, IT WAS NEVER JUST
> CALLED "MUSIC." IT WAS, AND STILL IS CALLED THE "MUSIC BUSINESS."
>
> "It's got to be more about music than showmanship. It's got to be
> more about creativity than expediency."
>
> NO. HES GOT IT ALMOST RIGHT. IT'S GOT TO BE ABOUT BOTH.
>
> "KISS had a gimmick. It's served the band well. A gimmick can get
> you noticed, but soon thereafter it becomes about the music. KISS
> took off its makeup and few cared."
>
> HE'S RIGHT. ABOUT 10 MILLION.
>
> "The Beatles gave up their suits, messed with their hair, even gave
> up playing live and the band got bigger and bigger."
>
> I LOVE THE ANALOGY. KISS AND THE BEATLES. THANKS.
>
> "The problem is, Gene Simmons thinks there's a handbook."
>
> YES. MY HANDBOOK.
>
> "Listening to him is like watching a bad version of "Glengarry Glen
> Ross"."
>
> NO. NOT REALLY. I DIDN'T LIKE THAT FILM MUCH. I'M MUCH MORE
> FASCINATED BY ME.
>
> "It's like going to a training session for Kirby vacuum salesmen.
> It's always interesting to hear how another person made it, but if
> you want to be successful in the future, you're better off ignoring
> everything Gene Simmons has to say."
>
> THIS STATEMENT MADE BY A GUY WHO'S STILL LIVING IN HIS MOTHER'S
> BASEMENT.
>
> "Unless, of course, you love money more than music."
>
> ACTUALLY, I LOVE BOTH MONEY AND MUSIC.
>
> "But since you're reading this, I doubt that..."
>
> GOOD LUCK TO THIS GUY.
> WE LOVE HEARING THE GOOD AND THE BAD.
>
> AND WE HOPE YOU GET OUT OF MOM'S BASEMENT SOON.
Notice Gene's theft of the "living in his mother's basement" cliche.
paulisded
03-19-2009, 01:13 PM
The clip apparently doesn't show the whole "debate".
Lefsetz's take on the fight:
What an asshole.
You can make your own decision who was victorious, I'm sure clips will
surface on YouTube. But what stunned me was who this guy was. I
truly believed he had another, more human side underneath, that maybe
he could let down his guard and laugh at himself. I was wrong.
Whether it be the endless recitation of KISS kronology, or shilling
for his venture with Universal Music Canada, not only did Gene
continue to sell, he did it in the meanest, most underhanded fashion
possible. Proving the old saw if you just met your hero, he wouldn't
be one anymore.
Not that Gene's my hero. But others believe in him. What a mistake.
At least homey don't play that no more. You truly have to befriend
your fans today, treat them civilly, not like you were born on the
mountaintop and you're making sure no one else can join you there.
I'd like to tell you our debate was an endless discussion of the
issues. Instead, it was constant put-downs of me... My name, my
appearance, my experience, my mother. I can handle it, but the
relentlessness and the refusal to lighten up completely stunned me.
Asshole wouldn't even shake my hand at the end, disappeared like the
weasel he truly is.
I arose to greet him when he took the stage, but alas, he had to
insult my name before sticking out his hand, which he never did by the
way. I just sat back down, stunned that someone could be so vicious.
Dick Cheney's got nothing on Gene Simmons.
Who's lost in the seventies. Wants to generate success for his
charges by getting them an opening slot on a tour and a reality TV
show. Like anybody cares about the opening acts anyway. As for
reality television, where are O-Town and Danity Kane these days?
Gene couldn't come up with one record business success other than
"discovering" Van Halen, who, of course, ended up signing with Warner
Brothers.
As for his own solo album? He showed a tiny hint of humility here,
the only one in the whole damn show. He said the song wasn't good
enough and his label was folding, said he needed someone to watch over
him.
As for the next KISS album? He's gonna sell that via a big box
retailer. So the old model, actually, the new 360 model, suffices for
his charges, the act gets screwed up the wazoo, and the take the cash
and run deal, for music only, works for KISS. If that doesn't
illustrate the disparity between the old guard and the new in the
music industry, I don't know what will.
KISS will continue to tour. Gene will concoct whatever circus is
necessary to put asses in the seats. Whether it be another reunion or
an execution on stage. But the band will still be way past its prime,
will still be has-beens, will still garner no respect in the world of
music. The reason being primarily Gene himself. Such a hateable guy
is going to find it impossible to garner any respect.
Furthermore, Gene doesn't seem to realize the Internet allows the
public to fight back. The stories filling up my inbox would make Gene
cry.
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