Why is Watchmen the best ?

[kdubya]

With all the talk about the Watchmen I pulled out my TPB for the first time in years.
I also have been looking at reviews of the film and graphic novel. When I read a review, of either the book or movie, that is critical of the story it is almost always followed by a wave of “Shut up, you just don’t get it” type of responses. As if the topic isn’t even up for discussion, it is just fact it is the best.

I need to state I am not saying it is not the best, I just don’t like the notion that it isn’t even up for discussion.

When reading reviews or talking to fans no one really seems to have a good explanation of why it is the best. Just saying “It is a deconstruction of super heroes” isn’t enough for me.

I like the story, the line between good and evil is explored with great precision and leaves you thinking.
The over the top violence allows the reader to think about if violence and war is ever the answer.
It also touches on the danger of power unchecked that is as relevant today as ever.

All that said it has some major flaws, like the ending. If Veidt is so smart how did he not take into account that mankind has a short memory. His plan was temporary at best.

Is it the best? If so why?

[EliSnow]

It's the best for a multitude of reasons. First, there are so many layers to the story. Whether it's the written text, the pirate story, the sub-story of the guy who wrote the pirate story, etc., all of these layers add to the story and its points.

Also, the books rounds the characters out well. All along you think the Comedien is an asshole of the highest magnitude, but even one he has harmed still loves him.

Plus, the art and story play so well. One issue (I can't remember which one, the first?) is set up so that the first page and the last page are set up virtually the same, same as the second and second last page, and so on and so on.

With all of these layers, which the traditional comic book story doesn't have, you can have read it 20 times and still find something new.

[kdubya]

It's the best for a multitude of reasons. First, there are so many layers to the story. Whether it's the written text, the pirate story, the sub-story of the guy who wrote the pirate story, etc., all of these layers add to the story and its points.
Also, the books rounds the characters out well. All along you think the Comedien is an asshole of the highest magnitude, but even one he has harmed still loves him.

Plus, the art and story play so well. One issue (I can't remember which one, the first?) is set up so that the first page and the last page are set up virtually the same, same as the second and second last page, and so on and so on.

With all of these layers, which the traditional comic book story doesn't have, you can have read it 20 times and still find something new.


That's my point. You say it has layers, well what are the layers?

Just because something is complex doesn't make it good?

I think an overlooked aspect is the Comedian. He is killed because he learned what Veidt was up to, so he couldn't be trusted. Well in the end the othrs are shown the truth, but aren't killed. The Comedian was a dick but Veidt knew he would expose the truth. Does that make him better or worse than the others?

[EliSnow]

That's my point. You say it has layers, well what are the layers?

To repeat -- the written text, the pirate story, the sub-story of the writer of the pirate story. Each is another layer that plays into the storyline.

Just because something is complex doesn't make it good?

It is, if it's done well and works. And Watchmen was done really well, and the layers work.

I think an overlooked aspect is the Comedian. He is killed because he learned what Veidt was up to, so he couldn't be trusted. Well in the end the othrs are shown the truth, but aren't killed. The Comedian was a dick but Veidt knew he would expose the truth. Does that make him better or worse than the others?

I think that's up to the reader to decide. And it gets back to what I was talking about. Even the Comedian is a fully developed character. He's not just the baby killing, facist presented at the start.

BTW, Rorschach was killed for that reason. Only Dr. Manhattan was the one doing it.

[ruggedo]

It was the first real exploration of Heroes and humans. One of the first super hero stories for adults too. Another first was a finite comic story and later when combined it was one of the first graphic novels. I think all of those firsts,combined with solid writing and the dark,memorable artwork have created what is just about a legend. I think there are a lot of comic stories that people will argue are the best,but Watchmen will always be a part of the arguement because of its place in history.

[TheMojoPin]

It's not only a breakdown of the superhero archetype, it's an actua dissection of the medium itself. Like Eli touched on, even just the physical layout of the pages, panels and art are all specifically done to push the medium to the limit.

[TripleSkeet]

I wouldnt call it the best graphic novel ever. After hearing all the hype I read it last week. I wasnt even that impressed. I mean it was a very cool concept and I liked how they showed a different way to look at "superheroes", but I didnt understand all the hype over it.

Plenty of other comics have dont the whole "what if it went down like this..." scenario as well.

Dont get me wrong, I liked it. But to call it the best ever? Um.....no.

[TheMojoPin]

OK, what are these titles or series that did the same thing and did it better?

I'm honestly curious.

[EliSnow]

Plenty of other comics have dont the whole "what if it went down like this..." scenario as well.
.

And pretty much all of them came after Watchmen.

And it's not just a "what if" book.

[Death Metal Moe]

I wouldn't call it "The Best Graphic Novel" either. But it was one of the best I've read and it was the best movie I've seen in years.

But that's not saying much, Hollywood blows.

[TheMojoPin]

And pretty much all of them came after Watchmen.

And it's not just a "what if" book.

Though I guess it almost was, if Moore had gotten to use the the Charlton characters like he originally wanted.

[EliSnow]

I wouldn't call Watchmen my favorite comic story -- my favorite is probably Miller's Born Again, but in terms of the quality, craftsmanship, etc. of any story, it's definitely Watchmen.

[kdubya]

[QUOTE=EliSnow;2170543]To repeat -- the written text, the pirate story, the sub-story of the writer of the pirate story. Each is another layer that plays into the storyline.

I still don't see that as an answer to my question. What is it about the priate story? What is it about the substory of the guy that wrote it? Simply saying they are there doesn't explain why they make the story great.

[EliSnow]

Though I guess it almost was, if Moore had gotten to use the the Charlton characters like he originally wanted.

It's one of those things that makes the story better. I equate it with the Jaws example if the Jaws robot would have worked as wanted. If things had gone the way the creators originally wanted, the result wouldn't have been as good.

[TheMojoPin]

It's one of those things that makes the story better. I equate it with the Jaws example if the Jaws robot would have worked as wanted. If things had gone the way the creators originally wanted, the result wouldn't have been as good.

Oh, definitely. I think it's much stronger being mostly original characters, though the similarities between Dr. Manhattan / Captain Atom, Nite Owl / Blue Beetle and Rorschach / The Question are pretty obvious)

[Death Metal Moe]

[QUOTE=EliSnow;2170543]To repeat -- the written text, the pirate story, the sub-story of the writer of the pirate story. Each is another layer that plays into the storyline.

I still don't see that as an answer to my question. What is it about the priate story? What is it about the substory of the guy that wrote it? Simply saying they are there doesn't explain why they make the story great.

Then you don't get it. And I don't mean that in a sarcastic, asshole "get it" way. I mean it in the most simple sense. You don't think the story is that great. A lot of Americans agreed with you, their box office slipped pretty hard.

Just don't worry about it then.

[TheMojoPin]

I still don't see that as an answer to my question. What is it about the priate story? What is it about the substory of the guy that wrote it? Simply saying they are there doesn't explain why they make the story great.

In all seriousness, the best answer I can give you would be to suggest that you read this:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3087/2681621764_e3f1cb63b7_o.jpg

It's an amazing book that any fan of comics should read, and it really showed me how a series like Watchmen is head and shoulders above the pack.

[EliSnow]

To repeat -- the written text, the pirate story, the sub-story of the writer of the pirate story. Each is another layer that plays into the storyline.

I still don't see that as an answer to my question. What is it about the priate story? What is it about the substory of the guy that wrote it? Simply saying they are there doesn't explain why they make the story great.

Yes, it was an answer to your initial question. You asked "what are the layers?" Well, those are the layers.

Now your question is how those layers make the story better. That's a different question. Each layer adds facts, details, emotion that round out the story. The written text helps explain the history of that world, but also firmly shows that these heroes and mystery men, and their foes, are simply human, which is one of the underlying ways the book deconstructs the medium. By showing the orign of mysterymen/superheroes (as compared to the well-known Superman and Batman origins), you see you're not dealing with mythic figures. It's men and women.

The pirate story adds a layer of horror. It also foreshadows that the ending of the book won't be a happy one, and that the horror you fight may change you, as it changed the heroes in the book.

It's been almost a decade since a last read it, so there's probably more to each, but that's stuff I took from each of those.

[EliSnow]

Then you don't get it. And I don't mean that in a sarcastic, asshole "get it" way. I mean it in the most simple sense. You don't think the story is that great. A lot of Americans agreed with you, their box office slipped pretty hard.

Just don't worry about it then.

I don't think that the box office falling means that a lot of Americans don't think that Watchmen the novel isn't great. It just means the movie isn't great.

What worked there may not work as a movie, no matter how "loyal" the adaptation is.

[Death Metal Moe]

I don't think that the box office falling means that a lot of Americans don't think that Watchmen the novel isn't great. It just means the movie isn't great.

What worked there may not work as a movie, no matter how "loyal" the adaptation is.

You are right, but let's be honest. The Watchmen novel is only known to a handful of people. The movie was it's chance to get mass exposure to the story. We can debate day and night how well it was adapted, but overall it was very close to the comic in many ways and people didn't go see it.

I still love the story, but I don't think a majority of the public can or want to understand complex stories. They want to be spoon fed the same lame fucking gags over and over again in sitcom form. So I wasn't expecting the public to embrace this movie.

[ruggedo]

[QUOTE=EliSnow;2170543]To repeat -- the written text, the pirate story, the sub-story of the writer of the pirate story. Each is another layer that plays into the storyline.

I still don't see that as an answer to my question. What is it about the priate story? What is it about the substory of the guy that wrote it? Simply saying they are there doesn't explain why they make the story great.

The pirate story parrallels the main story,that is a layer. The personal narrative is a layer. The fact that the heroes personal life is every bit as important as their lives as heroes is a layer. Public perception of the heroes held up to the reality of who they were is a layer. There is a lot here that you just didnt see in comics of that time, and for the most part its done pretty well.
Also the examination of the whole philosophical question,that has been a question since the early Greeks, who will watch the watchmen, adds an overall layer to the actual occurances. There is much more here then anyone of that period was used to seeing from a comic book.

[TheMojoPin]

You are right, but let's be honest. The Watchmen novel is only known to a handful of people.

Not by the time the film came out. Sales of the book skyrocketed in the year before it came out putting it on bestseller lists all around the country. Millions of new readers became aware of it and read it before the film even came out.

[Death Metal Moe]

Not by the time the film came out. Sales of the book skyrocketed in the year before it came out putting it on bestseller lists all around the country. Millions of new readers became aware of it and read it before the film even came out.

And that's still a "handful" compared to Batman fans for example.

You're really not going to force a non-comic book fan to suddenly start picking them up, so it was probably fringe fans, like myself. But we, the comic community are a minority in every sense.

[ruggedo]

I don't think that the box office falling means that a lot of Americans don't think that Watchmen the novel isn't great. It just means the movie isn't great.

What worked there may not work as a movie, no matter how "loyal" the adaptation is.

The opinion of the movie,in my shop, among comic fans is pretty mixed. Even some of the employees who love comics are going to wait to see it at home,dvd or cable. So I dont think its just the general public that has a problem with a movie version of this story.
Has anyone seen the dvd of the pirate story that was released at the same time the movie was? I was going to wait until I got the blue ray movie to get that add on,so I havent seen it.

[Thebazile78]

Not by the time the film came out. Sales of the book skyrocketed in the year before it came out putting it on bestseller lists all around the country. Millions of new readers became aware of it and read it before the film even came out.

Not to mention the "Ultimate Watchmen" trade reissue that coincided with the 20th(?) anniversary of the original run ... all the geeks and uber-geeks drooled over that one! (And I must say, it's damn pretty and I sure as hell want one myself.)

[EliSnow]

You are right, but let's be honest. The Watchmen novel is only known to a handful of people. The movie was it's chance to get mass exposure to the story. We can debate day and night how well it was adapted, but overall it was very close to the comic in many ways and people didn't go see it.

I still love the story, but I don't think a majority of the public can or want to understand complex stories. They want to be spoon fed the same lame fucking gags over and over again in sitcom form. So I wasn't expecting the public to embrace this movie.

Not by the time the film came out. Sales of the book skyrocketed in the year before it came out putting it on bestseller lists all around the country. Millions of new readers became aware of it and read it before the film even came out.

Watchmen has gotten a lot of mainstream press over the last ten years or so even before this movie was in production. This was happening with Time listing it as one of the top 100 novels of all time or other mainstream publications talking about it.

But at the same time, mainstream America really didn't know about it until the movie.

And regardless of how well it was adapted, the transition still meant it was going to lose layers that made the story great or even certain artistic conventions that work in a book form, but don't work on the screen.

[TheMojoPin]

And that's still a "handful" compared to Batman fans for example.

You're really not going to force a non-comic book fan to suddenly start picking them up, so it was probably fringe fans, like myself. But we, the comic community are a minority in every sense.

You're really underestimating how many copies of that book sold in the year before the film came out. It was nuts. No, it's not Batman numbers, but it has most definitely not been "fringe" since last summer.

[kdubya]

[QUOTE=;2170648]

The pirate story parrallels the main story,that is a layer. The personal narrative is a layer. The fact that the heroes personal life is every bit as important as their lives as heroes is a layer. Public perception of the heroes held up to the reality of who they were is a layer. There is a lot here that you just didnt see in comics of that time, and for the most part its done pretty well.
Also the examination of the whole philosophical question,that has been a question since the early Greeks, who will watch the watchmen, adds an overall layer to the actual occurances. There is much more here then anyone of that period was used to seeing from a comic book.

That is what I was asking for, I was currious what others took form it beyond just saying it was the best, and is deep.

[kdubya]

You're really underestimating how many copies of that book sold in the year before the film came out. It was nuts. No, it's not Batman numbers, but it has most definitely not been "fringe" since last summer.


When I was in grad school I had freinds that taught freshmen comp and used this book in their class.

[Thebazile78]

.....

And regardless of how well it was adapted, the transition still meant it was going to lose layers that made the story great or even certain artistic conventions that work in a book form, but don't work on the screen.

But isn't that one of the problems a lot of fiction that's been described as "meta-narrative" has faced upon adaptation to the screen?

(Maybe I am way off on that, but I guess what I'm trying to say is it's hard to "show" a story that's telling a story about how to tell a story ... )

[ruggedo]

When I was in grad school I had freinds that taught freshmen comp and used this book in their class.

I live in a college town and my store is here in this town too. Every other year a teacher of the college comes in and asks us to get copies of the Watchmen to cover his class. Probably has happened about ten times since its release.

[kdubya]

(Maybe I am way off on that, but I guess what I'm trying to say is it's hard to "show" a story that's telling a story about how to tell a story ... )

I never thought of that, thats an interesting spin on the story.

[EliSnow]

But isn't that one of the problems a lot of fiction that's been described as "meta-narrative" has faced upon adaptation to the screen?

(Maybe I am way off on that, but I guess what I'm trying to say is it's hard to "show" a story that's telling a story about how to tell a story ... )

I think all of that is correct. It's reasons like this that I don't think anyone can point to how the popular acceptance of a movie as evidence of how the populace would accept the book the movie adapted.

[Thebazile78]

I never thought of that, thats an interesting spin on the story.

I've read a lot of literary criticism that describes Watchmen like that.

I'll have to read it again with a critic's eye to see if I get that aspect ... it was pure pleasure reading for me the first two run-throughs, so I wasn't looking at it as a meta-narrative. But all the nested story elements can be interpreted as meta-narrative.

Now all I have to do is keep an eye out for NYCC workshops like the "using comics in the classroom" things they had this past Con ... I would love to set up an elective on the high school level using comics as primary texts!

[kdubya]

Has any one here read Miracleman? How does it compare to Watchmen?

[booster11373]

Has any one here read Miracleman? How does it compare to Watchmen?

Its very British but has similar themes, very dark I feel that both Watchmen and MM are products of there time

[TheMojoPin]

Has any one here read Miracleman? How does it compare to Watchmen?

Miracleman is fantastic, and it's a shame that it can't be re-released for the forseeable future due to legal conflicts.

It touches on similar themes as WM, namely the deconstruction fo the superhero in the "real world," though it's not nearly as complex. It's a much more straightforward story, and in many ways is Moore's "test run" for WM. If you can find it, definitely check it out.

[EliSnow]

Has any one here read Miracleman? How does it compare to Watchmen?

I started it. Someone here sent me jpg copies of it. It's a tough way to read a comic and that's why I didn't keep going. The first issue was really, really good.

[ruggedo]

Anyone interested in the theme of deconstructing the super hero, Astro City is as good as comics can get. Thats my opinion of course, I find it to just be a consistently good read,touching on adult topics and the kind of relationships between the public and the heroes that other books dont even attempt.

[TheMojoPin]

I started it. Someone here sent me jpg copies of it. It's a tough way to read a comic and that's why I didn't keep going. The first issue was really, really good.

The Neil Gaiman run after Moore's is also excellent. I wish they'd take care of the legal issues since Gaiman has the final unpublished scripts that would wrap up the series.

Man, Todd McFarlane is a douche.

[TheMojoPin]

Anyone interested in the theme of deconstructing the super hero, Astro City is as good as comics can get. Thats my opinion of course, I find it to just be a consistently good read,touching on adult topics and the kind of relationships between the public and the heroes that other books dont even attempt.

Miss AC. Busiek is a really underrated writer.

[EliSnow]

Anyone interested in the theme of deconstructing the super hero, Astro City is as good as comics can get. Thats my opinion of course, I find it to just be a consistently good read,touching on adult topics and the kind of relationships between the public and the heroes that other books dont even attempt.

Miss AC. Busiek is a really underrated writer.

I'm a huge Astro City fan. My favorite one-issue comic book story may be The Nearness of You story from Astro City #1/2.

I am bummed that it's not that popular, but I think we're going to see more of the Dark Age storyline soon.

[kdubya]

Man, Todd McFarlane is a douche.


I don't know if truer words have ever been spoken.

I looked for the trades a few years back, you can find them but they are very expensive.