Jimmy Rollins vs. Jose Reyes

[K.C.]

For one season.

If the season ends in July, I'd take Reyes.

But seeing as MLB ends it's season in September...

Oh, and then there's this:

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[foodcourtdruide]

Rollins 2007 OPS+ 118
Rollins 2008 OPS+ 103

Reyes 2007 OPS+ 103
Reyes 2008 OPS+ 118

I think if you're a Phillies fan you take Rollins and if you're a Mets fan you take Reyes. Either way you have a really good fucking shortstop.

[sailor]

j-ro

[JPMNICK]

got to go with the champs

[cougarjake13]

For one season.

If the season ends in July, I'd take Reyes.

But seeing as MLB ends it's season in September...

Oh, and then there's this:

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how does that correlate to on field productivity ??


just busting balls

[Snoogans]

anyone who votes for reyes is a blind fag mets homer

[AngryAsianGuy]

Kaz Matsui.

[cougarjake13]

kevin stocker

[TripleSkeet]

Rollins 2007 OPS+ 118
Rollins 2008 OPS+ 103

Reyes 2007 OPS+ 103
Reyes 2008 OPS+ 118

I think if you're a Phillies fan you take Rollins and if you're a Mets fan you take Reyes. Either way you have a really good fucking shortstop.

I know your just huge on this whole fucking OPS thing, but as a baseball fan heres what I look at....

2007: Rollins says his teams the team to beat, then goes out, wins the MVP and carries his team to a division title and the playoffs. Reyes slumps as his team has the biggest collapse in regular season history.

2008: Rollins once again says the Phils are the team to beat and this year doesnt plan on going home from the playoffs early. Then he goes out, and helps his team again win the division and this time the World Series. Reyes is once again on a team that chokes at the end of the season.

Answer: Rollins>>>>>>Reyes

OPS is a good tool, but you cant measure athletes entirely by stats. Thats just a geeks way of trying to justify what players are better then others.

[NickyL0885]

I'll take Reyes. His speed can determine a game. Him running out a triple is one of the best things to watch in baseball.

[PD]

if we are talking history, I'd take Rollins, but if we are talking this year, I take Reyes.

I think they have similar results, but I think Reyes is still on his way up, and Rollins is already there - ie reyes will improve, and Rollins will at best stay the same, worst start to regress.

[Snoogans]

if we are talking history, I'd take Rollins, but if we are talking this year, I take Reyes.

I think they have similar results, but I think Reyes is still on his way up, and Rollins is already there - ie reyes will improve, and Rollins will at best stay the same, worst start to regress.

that would reverse your arguement. If you are talkin future you take Reyes. Reyes isnt Rollins yet. Will he be? Probably, but this is for 1 year, and anyone who says they take Reyes for 1 year right now over Rollins is just wrong

[PD]

that would reverse your arguement. If you are talkin future you take Reyes. Reyes isnt Rollins yet. Will he be? Probably, but this is for 1 year, and anyone who says they take Reyes for 1 year right now over Rollins is just wrong
I do think they are pretty equivalent for last year, and I think this year Reyes will be at least as good.

You may disagree, but I think Reyes moves up a bit, Rollins moves back a bit for 2009
2009 hasn't happened so its still the future....

2008-
Reyes - .358 OBP, OPS .833, 56 SB
Rollins .349 OBP, OPS .786, 47 SB

you have no stat to prove Reyes over Rollins is "wrong"
last year they weren't that different, and if anything Reyes out performed him.

[Snoogans]

I do think they are pretty equivalent for last year, and I think this year Reyes will be at least as good.

You may disagree, but I think Reyes moves up a bit, Rollins moves back a bit for 2009
2009 hasn't happened so its still the future....

2008-
Reyes - .358 OBP, OPS .833, 56 SB
Rollins .349 OBP, OPS .786, 47 SB

you have no stat to prove Reyes over Rollins is "wrong"
last year they weren't that different, and if anything Reyes out performed him.

again with the stats stats stats. Jimmy Rollins is a leader. Reyes isnt. Rollins means way more to his team for those minor stat differences to mean taking reyes.

Again for 5 years, id prob take Reyes. But for one year, to play SS and lead my team, its Rollins and its no contest.

[Kevin]

If you pick Reyes over Rollins, you are retarded.

[weekapaugjz]

If you pick anyone either than Rollins, you are retarded.

you mean other, retard?

[weekapaugjz]

If you pick Reyes over Rollins, you are retarded.

third time a charm?

[Kevin]

you mean other, retard?

i have no idea what u are talking about. You and Epo put words in my posts.

[PD]

again with the stats stats stats. Jimmy Rollins is a leader. Reyes isnt. Rollins means way more to his team for those minor stat differences to mean taking reyes.

Again for 5 years, id prob take Reyes. But for one year, to play SS and lead my team, its Rollins and its no contest.

I agree about the leadership (which is why I'd take Rollins for a past year) but I think you are undervaluing actual performance as reflected in Stats.

as for meaning more to his team, I don't think I agree. Rollins has leadership, but Reyes gives his team spark. When Rollins struggled, his team still did fine; when Reyes struggles, it can't generate offense.

[Snoogans]

I agree about the leadership (which is why I'd take Rollins for a past year) but I think you are undervaluing actual performance as reflected in Stats.

as for meaning more to his team, I don't think I agree. Rollins has leadership, but Reyes gives his team spark. When Rollins struggled, his team still did fine; when Reyes struggles, it can't generate offense.

Rollins gives him team plenty of spark. he was 47 of 50 on steals last year and Reyes seems to be a douche. And falls apart in sept

[PD]

and Reyes seems to be a douche. And falls apart in sept

and what happened to the mets when he fell apart?
ie- he was more important to his team.

as for being a douche, thats just sour grapes to outside teams;
at least unlike Manny, his teammates love him.

SB is not an indicator of "spark"; for someone who disregarded stats, that pretty lame.

[Snoogans]

and what happened to the mets when he fell apart?
ie- he was more important to his team.

as for being a douche, thats just sour grapes to outside teams;
at least unlike Manny, his teammates love him.

well in fairness, the entire mets team fell apart. Reyes, wright, pitching, they all suck. I even rooted for Putz to blow it for the US just cause its funny

[PD]

I even rooted for Putz to blow it for the US just cause its funny

somehow that doesn't surprise me.:smoke:

[Snoogans]

somehow that doesn't surprise me.:smoke:

if it helps any, I hate philly way more, so its not like im sayin Rollins just cause fuck the Mets

[spadanko]

I love how reyes is the douche because he dances but rollins is a gritty leader when he hasn't stopped talking shit about the Mets (even at the WS parade)... I just don't get it. you won the title, why do you keep talking about the Mets?

[Snoogans]

I love how reyes is the douche because he dances but rollins is a gritty leader when he hasn't stopped talking shit about the Mets (even at the WS parade)... I just don't get it. you won the title, why do you keep talking about the Mets?

everyone should talk shit about the mets. They are fuckin garbage

[foodcourtdruide]

Acting like one is clear cut over the other is not honest. And how do we measure leadership exactly? How do any of us know what either one means to their teams? They're both high quality shortstops. I take reyes because I'm a mets fan, if I was a phillies fan I'd take rollins.

[Kevin]

Acting like one is clear cut over the other is not honest. And how do we measure leadership exactly? How do any of us know what either one means to their teams? They're both high quality shortstops. I take reyes because I'm a mets fan, if I was a phillies fan I'd take rollins.

One has shown to be clutch and can be able to sustain the full level of performance for the whole season, year after year. And has one an MVP.

The other one has great talent, but has not shown he can put it all together yet.

Until he shows that, i gotta go with Rollins.

[weekapaugjz]

One has shown to be clutch and can be able to sustain the full level of performance for the whole season, year after year. And has one an MVP.

The other one has great talent, but has not shown he can put it all together yet.

Until he shows that, i gotta go with Rollins.

won?

the grammar faildozer is in full force tonight.

[spadanko]

One has shown to be clutch and can be able to sustain the full level of performance for the whole season, year after year. And has one an MVP.

The other one has great talent, but has not shown he can put it all together yet.

Until he shows that, i gotta go with Rollins.


one is also 5 years older then the other. Rollins didn't hit his prime until he was 27... Reyes turns 26 this season.

You honestly can't go wrong with either.

[Snoogans]

one is also 5 years older then the other. Rollins didn't hit his prime until he was 27... Reyes turns 26 this season.

You honestly can't go wrong with either.

except its one year. You guys seem to be forgetting you arent building a team around one. its just for this coming season, so reyes future beyond now doesnt matter

[IMSlacker]

Hanley Ramirez

[Snoogans]

Hanley Ramirez

He has alot of his own issues. He could be better then both of them but he has to fix some attitude and mechanical problems

[spadanko]

He has alot of his own issues. He could be better then both of them but he has to fix some attitude and mechanical problems


he'll also be an OF in a year or 2

[IMSlacker]

He has alot of his own issues. He could be better then both of them but he has to fix some attitude and mechanical problems

If being awesome is an issue, then I agree.

[Snoogans]

If being awesome is an issue, then I agree.

he strikes out alot and doesnt hit for great average. They say he tries to hit homers instead of just hitting naturally. And his D isnt great

[IMSlacker]

he strikes out alot and doesnt hit for great average. They say he tries to hit homers instead of just hitting naturally. And his D isnt great

He hit .301 with a .400 OBP and slugged .540!!! last year. Rollins hit .277/.345/.437. I'll take Ramirez and his strike outs and bad defense.

[spoon]

I agree about the leadership (which is why I'd take Rollins for a past year) but I think you are undervaluing actual performance as reflected in Stats.

as for meaning more to his team, I don't think I agree. Rollins has leadership, but Reyes gives his team spark. When Rollins struggled, his team still did fine; when Reyes struggles, it can't generate offense.

SPARK!?! SPARK? Seriously? You're kidding right. What spark do you speak of at the end of the last two years? Or what about the fact that he's AWFUL on the bases, getting picked off and falling asleep all the time. Without his speed, he'd be even worse.

Oh and let's factor in that Rollins was coming off an injury and STILL put up respectable numbers, including on the bases.

Bottom line, Rollins does the little things while Reyes jumps around like a soccer player who just scored and swings for the fences with little power and all the speed in the world going to waste. I DON'T get the same hard on Nicky does watching him leg out triples.

[Snoogans]

He hit .301 with a .400 OBP and slugged .540!!! last year. Rollins hit .277/.345/.437. I'll take Ramirez and his strike outs and bad defense.

i dont mean like that. The team was kinda made at him during last year cause they know he can hit like 340 350 potential but he tries to crank everything. And he wouldnt sacrafice his stats at times to do the little things

[spoon]

Hey, where are all 43 Blue Jay shortstops of the last 5 years in this poll?!

:wallbash:

[foodcourtdruide]

SPARK!?! SPARK? Seriously? You're kidding right. What spark do you speak of at the end of the last two years? Or what about the fact that he's AWFUL on the bases, getting picked off and falling asleep all the time. Without his speed, he'd be even worse.

Oh and let's factor in that Rollins was coming off an injury and STILL put up respectable numbers, including on the bases.

Bottom line, Rollins does the little things while Reyes jumps around like a soccer player who just scored and swings for the fences with little power and all the speed in the world going to waste. I DON'T get the same hard on Nicky does watching him leg out triples.

Reyes has made some mistakes on the bases, but awful? Come on harry hyperbole.

[Schlitz001]

i dont mean like that. The team was kinda made at him during last year cause they know he can hit like 340 350 potential but he tries to crank everything. And he wouldnt sacrafice his stats at times to do the little things

So instead of hitting Homeruns, Ramirez should start bunting and hitting singles more? A bunt is never more valueable than a HR. Also, Ramirez had more SF than either Rollins or Reyes last year. Offensively Ramirez has far and away better stats than Reyes and Rollins. Use OPS, wOBA, VORP, whatever you want.

When talking about Rollins vs. Reyes, it's close, but Reyes is a better player. He is younger and puts up offensive numbers.

You can make the argument that, "Rollins is a spark" (sounds like some thing John Kruk would say), except that when he was injured last year from April 10th - May 8th the Phillies went on a roll with an 11-6 record. +1 Reyes

As far as Rollins being clutch....here is his career line with 2 outs and RISP - .257/.392/.428. Reyes career line with 2 outs and RISP - .287/389/.524. Reyes puts up a better line in this situation that people consider clutch, so +1 Reyes.

As far as being a bad basestealer, Rollins is 295 out of 356 and Reyes is 290 out 366. Pretty damn similar numbers for both. +1 Rollins.

As for Reyes being a douche, I can't prove or disprove this but it's probably true. +1 Rollins.

So they are fairly evenly matched, but you have to give Reyes the edge because of age and the slight statistical advantage. Also, don't tell me that Rollins is a far better fielder than Reyes because he's won a few gold gloves. Last time I looked they give those things to anyone (cough<Jeter>cough).

[Snoogans]

So instead of hitting Homeruns, Ramirez should start bunting and hitting singles more?

you are retarded. If you have ever played baseball at any level, you know that the harder you try to hit it, the worse you tend to do. Its not about dont hit home runs. Its about dont TRY to hit homers. Then you end up pulling off the ball, poppin up, taking a longer swing.

You have to hit HRs naturally, not just try every time

[TooLowBrow]

the harder they come the harder they fall



one and all

[NickyL0885]

I DON'T get the same hard on Nicky does watching him leg out triples.

Bummer. We could have had a party

[Gvac]

Who has more pure natural talent? Reyes.

Who would I rather have on my team? Rollins.

[Caseyelan]

<---- retarded and voted for reyes.


Not only do I bleed orange and blue... he won me over after a post game interview YEARS ago where his accent made him stumble a bit.... he turned Roger Clemens into "rah rah lemons" and I laughed so hard I pissed a bit.

[K.C.]

If you pick Reyes over Rollins, you are retarded.

I like the cut of your jib.

Who has more pure natural talent? Reyes.

Who would I rather have on my team? Rollins.

That pretty much sums up my opinion on it. What does it say about a guy like Reyes, who has so much talent, yet he's had his worst month of the season, in each of the last two years, in September during a pennant race?

I don't know if it's just lack of maturity, or he's just not mentally tough enough for the pressure.

Baseball is filled, and always has been filled in the past, with guys with unbelievable 'pure, natural talent' who never grow into it.

I'm not saying Reyes won't...just saying he hasn't.

And based on that, I'd take Jimmy for one season, no questions asked, over him.


Now obviously, if I'm starting a team, you take Reyes because of the age and potential talent.

[K.C.]

Hanley Ramirez

I knew someone would do this.

For the record, I'd take Hanley over both.

[FezsAssistant]

I'm not a fan of either team so...

Rollins. He's a winner. He backs up his trash talking.

Reyes can't handle pressure (along with the rest of the team) and acts like a fucking child on the field.

[Snoogans]

<---- retarded and voted for reyes.


Not only do I bleed orange and blue... he won me over after a post game interview YEARS ago where his accent made him stumble a bit.... he turned Roger Clemens into "rah rah lemons" and I laughed so hard I pissed a bit.

at least you admit it.

[epo]

How is this even a comparison? Rollins, hands down.

[razorboy]

I'll take a winner over a whiner anyday. I fucking hate the Phillies and the Mets, but give me Rollins.

[TheMojoPin]

Career-wise, I'd take Rollins. Reyes was significantly better last year, but I'd rather bank on Rollins.

[Notorious_JC]

I know your just huge on this whole fucking OPS thing, but as a baseball fan heres what I look at....

2007: Rollins says his teams the team to beat, then goes out, wins the MVP and carries his team to a division title and the playoffs. Reyes slumps as his team has the biggest collapse in regular season history.

2008: Rollins once again says the Phils are the team to beat and this year doesnt plan on going home from the playoffs early. Then he goes out, and helps his team again win the division and this time the World Series. Reyes is once again on a team that chokes at the end of the season.

Answer: Rollins>>>>>>Reyes

OPS is a good tool, but you cant measure athletes entirely by stats. Thats just a geeks way of trying to justify what players are better then others.

absolutely correct. you can't tell me Pujos is better than Howard because of sheer numbers. That's why Pedroia won the MVP award - he was a better all around player than anyone else. He carries his team, like Rollins does.

[TheMojoPin]

absolutely correct. you can't tell me Pujos is better than Howard because of sheer numbers.

Wait...what?

You can do exactly that.

Albert Pujols is so much better than Ryan Howard it's not even funny.

Comparable batters to Albert Pujols:

Jimmie Foxx
Hank Aaron
Frank Robinson
Lou Gehrig
Ken Griffey
Vladimir Guerrero
Mickey Mantle
Joe DiMaggio
Juan Gonzalez
Mel Ott

Comparable batters to Ryan Howad:

Cecil Fielder
Norm Cash
Tony Clark
Mo Vaughn
David Ortiz
Carlos Delgado
Fred McGriff
Ryan Klesko
Richie Sexson
Jason Bay

[razorboy]

absolutely correct. you can't tell me Pujos is better than Howard because of sheer numbers.

I voted for Rollins, but this is where we part ways. I can absolutely tell you that Pujols is better than Howard based on his numbers alone, let alone his postseason performances, two MVPs and World Series ring. Edit: Mojo said it first and better.

[Marc with a c]

absolutely correct. you can't tell me Pujos is better than Howard because of sheer numbers.

totally, and that's why i'll take david eckstein over rollins and reyes.

[Marc with a c]

<---- retarded and voted for reyes.


Not only do I bleed orange and blue... he won me over after a post game interview YEARS ago where his accent made him stumble a bit.... he turned Roger Clemens into "rah rah lemons" and I laughed so hard I pissed a bit.

give the proffessor a break.

[TheMojoPin]

totally, and that's why i'll take david eckstein over rollins and reyes.

Can't underestimate grittiness. Plus he's short and scrappy. Triple threat.

[razorboy]

Can't underestimate grittiness. Plus he's short and scrappy. Triple threat.

Don't forget, he has a high baseball IQ and he plays with a lot of hustle.

[TheMojoPin]

He's a gamer with fire in his belly. He never gives up and never says die.

[razorboy]

He really makes the most of his physical tools. He's a good player on the diamond, but he's an even better person off of it.

[Dave's Cackle]

I'd take Khalil Greene over those two scrubs any day :thumbup:

Actually, Rollins/Reyes are a wash. Both guys have similar stats where Reyes has more speed and Rollins has a better bat. Rollins has a stronger arm while Reyes has more range.

[TheMojoPin]

Why would anyone take more speed over a better bat?

[K.C.]

Wait...what?

You can do exactly that.

Albert Pujols is so much better than Ryan Howard it's not even funny.

Comparable batters to Albert Pujols:

Jimmie Foxx
Hank Aaron
Frank Robinson
Lou Gehrig
Ken Griffey
Vladimir Guerrero
Mickey Mantle
Joe DiMaggio
Juan Gonzalez
Mel Ott

Comparable batters to Ryan Howad:

Cecil Fielder
Norm Cash
Tony Clark
Mo Vaughn
David Ortiz
Carlos Delgado
Fred McGriff
Ryan Klesko
Richie Sexson
Jason Bay

That's a little misleading if you're using baseball reference.

That's a career gauge, I believe. Pujols has been in the league at least four years longer than Howard.

Although I agree, that you can prove Pujols is pretty much better in terms of the numbers.

[TheMojoPin]

It's based on both by the age of 28 compared with other players with the most similar numbers by the same age. Howard is obviously not 28, so it's adjusted accordingly

[K.C.]

It's based on both by the age of 28 compared with other players with the most similar numbers by the same age. Howard is obviously not 28, so it's adjusted accordingly

Still somewhat misleading. Pujols had more seasons under his belt at that age than Howard.

I mean, seriously...I get that Howard is not Pujols.

Pujols is the best player of this generation.

But Howard is comparable to Ryan Klesko? Tony Clark?? Richie Sexson??? Come on...

Yes, if you take his three and a half season and project versus six, seven or eight years of those players it's probably comparable, which is what's happening with that 'Comparable Players at Age 28' ranking, because Howard recorded zeroes up until age 25.

If you look at the single-season averages, though, Howard's had three HOF numbers quality seasons. His biggest obstacle right now is his age, because he broke through late.

[TheMojoPin]

Hey, I just report 'em.

[TripleSkeet]

I already said Id take Rollins, but Id take Hanley over Reyes too.

As far as the Howard / Pujols debate, Im obviously biased towards Howard, but some of the players you compared him with.....come on.

Lets look at his first 4 years in the league...

Year 1 - Rookie of the Year (while playing roughly 3/4 of a season)
Year 2 - MVP
Year 3 - Helps his team make the playoffs for the 1st time in 14 years
Year 4 - Helps his team win the World Series for the 1st time in 28 years (and leads the league in HR's and RBI's)

Seriously, how many other players in history have had a first 4 years like that?

If his path wasnt roadblocked by Thome for the 3 years before that his career numbers would be frightening by now.

[K.C.]

I already said Id take Rollins, but Id take Hanley over Reyes too.

As far as the Howard / Pujols debate, Im obviously biased towards Howard, but some of the players you compared him with.....come on.

Lets look at his first 4 years in the league...

Year 1 - Rookie of the Year (while playing roughly 3/4 of a season)
Year 2 - MVP
Year 3 - Helps his team make the playoffs for the 1st time in 14 years
Year 4 - Helps his team win the World Series for the 1st time in 28 years (and leads the league in HR's and RBI's)

Seriously, how many other players in history have had a first 4 years like that?

If his path wasnt roadblocked by Thome for the 3 years before that his career numbers would be frightening by now.

Pujols has won two MVPs, a RotY, been to two World Series (winning won), and finished in the Top 5 in the MVP voting seven of the eight years he's been in the league (his one non Top 5 was still a Top 10).

That stuff is unheard of for a player of his service time.

Howard has him in power, but Pujols has him in everything else.

It's hard to argue with the results.


Pujols is a slam dunk Hall of Famer unless he falls of an Andruw Jones cliff.

Howard still has a ways to go right now, although he's set a good pace.


I'd take Howard over every other 1B in baseball, including Teixeira.

But not over Pujols.

[Marc with a c]

I'd take Howard over every other 1B in baseball, including Teixeira.


say what?

http://lesterslegends.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/miguel-cabrera.jpg

[K.C.]

say what?



I don't look kindly on guys who eat their way out of their original position.

Miggy needs a salad once in a while.

[TheMojoPin]

say what?

http://lesterslegends.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/miguel-cabrera.jpg

You're so wise.

I'd also arguably take my mancrush Adam Dunn at 1st over Howard, too.

Maybe even Prince Fielder, too.

Howard is a fantastic hitter, but he was fucking AWFUL offensively for around 50% of the 2008 season. As young as he is, I'd be curious to see if that was the start of any kind of trend with him.

[Marc with a c]

I don't look kindly on guys who eat their way out of their original position.

Miggy needs a salad once in a while.

clearly, but miggy is better than howard.

[TripleSkeet]

Adam Dunn is the white Ryan Howard only with less home runs.

With both you are usually going to either get a home run or strikeout.

Personally I think they put too much emphasis on batting average for guys like that. They arent supposed to hit for average. The cleanup hitter has one stat that matters....RBI's. Thats one of the main reasons I like Howard. He clears that table year after year for the guys in front of him setting it.

[spoon]

Now obviously, if I'm starting a team, you take Reyes because of the age and potential talent.

I'd even point out that I'd want Rollins here more than any other situation. Let me explain. If you're going to have a overall young team, you'll need key leaders and role models for those kids to build their careers off of. Sure it's not all how you your taught, but A LOT of it does come through that angle. He takes the pressure off the kids, fights through injuries, is a great fielder, will do all the little things in the face of swinging for the fences and or being the hero and to put it bluntly, is a great team guy.

Gvac sums this up with the best economy of words. Based on potential, Reyes....based on performance, Rollins.

[spoon]

Career-wise, I'd take Rollins. Reyes was significantly better last year, but I'd rather bank on Rollins.

Lest you forget the ankly injury Rollins was coming back from and how he did the little things along with his team to make the playoffs versus being a stat hawk.

[spoon]

totally, and that's why i'll take david eckstein over rollins and reyes.

Nice!

Finally one of the 43 shortstops the Jays had over the last two years shows his face in this thread!


:lol:

[TheMojoPin]

I'd argue that Dunn is potentially "better" because he's put up his numbers with viritually no "protection" or backup in the lineup around him. Again, Howard is clearly a skilled hitter, but I'd be curious how he'd fare in the shitty lineups Dunn has basically spent his entire career in. Howard has shown to be more of a streaky hitetr than Dunn, which potentially implies that he'd be significantly less than the threat he is now if he was in a mediocre or worse lineup.

[spoon]

Adam Dunn is the white Ryan Howard only with less home runs.

With both you are usually going to either get a home run or strikeout.

Personally I think they put too much emphasis on batting average for guys like that. They arent supposed to hit for average. The cleanup hitter has one stat that matters....RBI's. Thats one of the main reasons I like Howard. He clears that table year after year for the guys in front of him setting it.

It's so odd that your logic helps the Howard argument. Hmmmm?

Sorry, but I'll take the guy who clears that table and or resets it versus a guy who either clears it 2 out of 10 tries and the other just lets it sit untouched.

[spoon]

I'd argue that Dunn is potentially "better" because he's put up his numbers with viritually no "protection" or backup in the lineup around him. Again, Howard is clearly a skilled hitter, but I'd be curious how he'd fare in the shitty lineups Dunn has basically spent his entire career in. Howard has shown to be more of a streaky hitetr than Dunn, which potentially implies that he'd be significantly less than the threat he is now if he was in a mediocre or worse lineup.

Uck.

Dunn's name is very fitting of his overall talent to say the least. An slow, shitty fielding lifetime .240 power hitting turd who likes to K more than walk....I'm sure he'll be the wasted DH contract for the Jays when he's ready to retire at 34.

[TheMojoPin]

Uck.

Dunn's name is very fitting of his overall talent to say the least. An slow, shitty fielding lifetime .240 power hitting turd who likes to K more than walk....I'm sure he'll be the wasted DH contract for the Jays when he's ready to retire at 34.

He's a shitty fielder primarily because he's had to play OF and he's not a OFer. He's not an amazing defensive 1st baseman, but he's far better there than in the OF.

Your criticism that he k's more than walking is moot since most good hitters strike out more than they walk. The difference between Dunn and most of those guys, however, is how much more he walks than any of them in addiion to his elite power numbers. The guy has avaeraged well over 100 walks a season as well as 40 home runs a season for 6 straight years now. That FAR outweighs his strikeouts.

His strikeouts are also due to how good his eye is. His high strikeouts are made up of a ton of AB's that would have just been outs anyway due to getting nothing to hit. He's got one of the best hitting eyes in the game right now.

Whether you wat to admit it or not, he's one of the very best power hitters around (and on pace to be one of the very best ever) and one of the best offensive players in the game right now.

[spoon]

If he had such a "great eye" and one of the great power hitters combined with no protection, his walk numbers should be WAY higher!

[TheMojoPin]

If he had such a "great eye" and one of the great power hitters combined with no protection, his walk numbers should be WAY higher!

Uh, you might want to check to see how ridicuously high his walk totals are right now. Averaging close to 110 walks a season for 6 straight seasons is really, really, REALLY good.

[foodcourtdruide]

How do any of us know what a leader or rolemodel any baseball player is to their teammates? When I hear people talk about that stuff it sounds so fanboy-ish.

[KingGeno]

How do any of us know what a leader or rolemodel any baseball player is to their teammates? When I hear people talk about that stuff it sounds so fanboy-ish.

Cuz some of us play sports. And we also listen to post-shows, interviews with teammates, coaches, and follow what they do off-field sometimes. You kinda catch that drift over the long season.

[foodcourtdruide]

Do you think you can really get insight into the personal relationships between professional athletes from things like Post-Game Interviews? Also, even if someone does have "leadership" qualities who is to say how that will impact each of their teammates? I'm not saying it's a useless quality, but attempting to somehow quantify it and use as it as definitive reason you'd choose Rollins over Reyes is a stretch. I don't see how any of us can prove or disprove that Reyes' personality is detrimental to his team or Rollins' personality is beneficial to his team. Does Rollins play with babies? If he wasn't there would they all strike out? Do people work harder because Rollins is around? Do people not work as hard because Reyes is around? It's all conjecture and I don't see why it's presented as proof.

[K.C.]

clearly, but miggy is better than howard.

I'm not so sure about that.

They're both awful defensively. Howard has him in power, Miggy has him in average. I think Miggy has a slightly better OPS, but I believe Howard has better RISP numbers.

They're comparable.

Cabrera's still younger, I think...right? The problem there, is that he seems to have chosen the Andruw Jones path of conditioning.

I could honestly see him break down quicker than Howard, despite the age difference.

[TheMojoPin]

It mostly comes down to how streaky Howard is.

[Marc with a c]

It mostly comes down to how streaky Howard is.

take cabrera out of florida and detroit and put him in philly his power numbers would rival howard's.

and yes cabrera is younger and fatter which is a concern, but the guy is a top five hitter .

[K.C.]

take cabrera out of florida and detroit and put him in philly his power numbers would rival howard's.

and yes cabrera is younger and fatter which is a concern, but the guy is a top five hitter .

I'm a little tired of the stadium argument.

Citizens Bank Park, by Park Factor (PF = ((homeRS + homeRA)/(homeG)) / ((roadRS + roadRA)/(roadG))) ranked 15th in terms of runs, 11th in terms of HRs, and 20th in terms of doubles in 2008

In 2007 it was 32nd in runs, 21st in HRs, and 32nd in doubles by PF.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor?sort=doublesFactor&season=2007

Even if you look at Howard's home runs, he's hit more on the road than at home in his career.

So the Citizens Bank Bandbox thing is a myth.

Maybe when they first built the park in 2004, it had some credibility, but since they moved the fences back, after that season, it has played more than fair.

[Marc with a c]

where do the tigers and marlins stadiums rank?

[K.C.]

where do the tigers and marlins stadiums rank?

Comerica ranks a few above CBP, Dolphins Stadium ranks a few below, for 2008.

Both are above CBP in 2007.

[Marc with a c]

i just looked over the park factors you linked, like i should've when you posted it, and i'm surprised that citizen's bank plays as big as it does since they moved the fences back.

whatever. reyes is better looking than rollins.

[hammersavage]

whatever. reyes is better looking than rollins.

QFT, what straight man could deny it?

[Snoogans]

QFT, what straight man could deny it?

Please. Rollins is black. So in the place you are concerned, Rollins looks way better

[hammersavage]

In my house, every non white American is black.

[Snoogans]

In my house, every non white American is black.

until you take their pants off

[TripleSkeet]

It's so odd that your logic helps the Howard argument. Hmmmm?

Sorry, but I'll take the guy who clears that table and or resets it versus a guy who either clears it 2 out of 10 tries and the other just lets it sit untouched.

Ill take the guy that leads the league in RBI's year after year.

[Snoogans]

Ill take the guy that leads the league in RBI's year after year.

Ill take Youk

[Marc with a c]

Ill take the guy that leads the league in RBI's year after year.

eek. that's going to get torn apart.

[TheMojoPin]

Yeah, RBI's are up there with pitching wins and losses as a misleading stat that people place way too much stock into.

While it does have its value, it hinges too much on the performance of people besides the batter to truly judge how well the batter does with runners on. A batter who is actually very average hitting with RISP or runners on base period could easily have an inflated RBI total simply because they're hitting behind guys who get on a base at an excellent clip.

It's best to check a player's other hitting stats with runners on.

For the Record, Howard has excellent numbers when hitting with RISP, and in most of the other runners on scenarios, too.

[TripleSkeet]

eek. that's going to get torn apart.

Im not sure what you mean. In his first 3 full seasons he led all of baseball in RBI's twice and came in 4th the other time.

Mojo I agree RBI can be an inflated number but the same can be said about batting average, steals etc.. I see a guy like Bobby Abreau whose entire career was made on padded stats, and Howards just not that guy. Like you said, the guy can hit. I just think I personally put more emphasis on one stat for a certain position.

For leadoff I say the most important stat is not average its OBP. For cleanup I say its RBI, especially if you are a power hitter. I also think K's are less important for a power hitter then a contact hitter.

Not saying my philosophy is the right one, its just my personal feelings on baseball and how its played.

[Gvac]

Unless you watch a player day in and day out, there's no way to tell just how much the numbers lie or back up a player's worth. Situational hitting, making "good" outs, and clutch RBIs are a lot more important than amassing numbers.

Unless you're a stat geek, however, you're just going to go by the season totals, which can be extremely misleading.

Ask any Yankee fan about A Rod and they'll tell you he hits homers when they're up 10-0 or down 10-0, and yet when you see he hit 45 or 50 homers you automatically assume he's a great contributor to the team.

And as a Cincinnati Reds fan I can tell you the same thing about Adam Dunn. The man hits more meaningless solo homers than anybody I've ever seen in my life.

[foodcourtdruide]

I have a feeling I know where this thread is going. How soon before someone posts a link to the Joe Morgan Sucks website?

[IMSlacker]

I have a feeling I know where this thread is going. How soon before someone posts a link to the Joe Morgan Sucks website?

FJM has gone dark for the foreseeable future. Sorry folks. We may post once in a while, but it's pretty much over.

Come back, firejoemorgan.com, we need you now more than ever!

[Marc with a c]

Im not sure what you mean. In his first 3 full seasons he led all of baseball in RBI's twice and came in 4th the other time.

Mojo I agree RBI can be an inflated number but the same can be said about batting average, steals etc..

my torn apart comment was basically saying rbi's don't necessarily show a power hitters true worth. howard has a clear advantage of almost any four hitter in the league with rollins, and utley hitting in front of him. give dunn or cabrera those guys and their rbi would most likely go up.

[foodcourtdruide]

Come back, firejoemorgan.com, we need you now more than ever!

amen brother.

[TheMojoPin]

Im not sure what you mean. In his first 3 full seasons he led all of baseball in RBI's twice and came in 4th the other time.

Mojo I agree RBI can be an inflated number but the same can be said about batting average, steals etc.. I see a guy like Bobby Abreau whose entire career was made on padded stats, and Howards just not that guy. Like you said, the guy can hit. I just think I personally put more emphasis on one stat for a certain position.

For leadoff I say the most important stat is not average its OBP. For cleanup I say its RBI, especially if you are a power hitter. I also think K's are less important for a power hitter then a contact hitter.

Not saying my philosophy is the right one, its just my personal feelings on baseball and how its played.

Average is never the most important offensive stat.

The bottom line is that there are much better stats to gauge how good a cleanup hitter is or how effective a power hitter is at driving in runners on base. RBI's simply do not tell enough of the story.

Strikeouts are way overrated as being "bad." Good hitters that strikeout a lot tend to do so because they also walk a lot and have such a good eye that they let borderline pitches go that they wouldn't have been able to hit anything off of that they get called on. Most of those strikeouts would have ultimately just been easily fielded grounders, popouts, etc.. Bad hitters that strikeout a lot, well, their problems are a lot worse and lot more obvious than strikeouts.

IMO.

[TheMojoPin]

Unless you watch a player day in and day out, there's no way to tell just how much the numbers lie or back up a player's worth. Situational hitting, making "good" outs, and clutch RBIs are a lot more important than amassing numbers.

Unless you're a stat geek, however, you're just going to go by the season totals, which can be extremely misleading.

All of the things you're talking about are tracked and easily followed stats-wise, which are always more accurate than watching a lot of games, or even all games. The numbers don't "lie" as much as "I know what I see" does. No major aspect of the game is missed by the stats. It's basically impossible for someone to go by "their gut" with game that lasts 162 games each season and be more accurate than the stats.

Ask any Yankee fan about A Rod and they'll tell you he hits homers when they're up 10-0 or down 10-0, and yet when you see he hit 45 or 50 homers you automatically assume he's a great contributor to the team.

It's easy to check ARod's stats from throughout his career, breaking them down any way you want, and see that for most of it he has been an excellent "clutch" hitter and wih runners on base or RISP. The perception that he's mostly "not clutch" or chokes with people on base is largely incorrect, no matter how many fans tell you "they know what they see."

And as a Cincinnati Reds fan I can tell you the same thing about Adam Dunn. The man hits more meaningless solo homers than anybody I've ever seen in my life.

Which is mostly due to the shitty Reds lineups he had surrounding him during his time with the team. It cannot be underestimated how bad those teams were. A player can't get other players on base for himself. A quick glance at Dunn's season by season numbers show that he was still just as excellent a hitter with most scenarios involving runners on or RISP. He hit a ton of solo homoers because his team mostly sucked and weren't able to get on base enough to take advantage of his power. If you don't believe me, go to baseball-reference-com and break down his numbers with runners on. You can split it up by season or even parts of each season if you want. Here's his career numbers to get started. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=dunnad01&year=00#situa-bases)

Do not fear the stats, sir. They do not lie.

[epo]

Do not fear the stats, sir. They do not lie.

I knew you'd turn into a fantasy baseball/stats nerd eventually.

[TheMojoPin]

I knew you'd turn into a fantasy baseball/stats nerd eventually.

Eventually?

My wisdom has been eternal.

Don't drag me down becase Wisconsin just got math in 2002.

[Gvac]

All of the things you're talking about are tracked and easily followed stats-wise, which are always more accurate than watching a lot of games, or even all games.

Hahaha!

STAT GEEK!

NERD!

Of course I was talking about basic numbers like Avg., HR, and RBI.

Not your super nerdy super duper stats!

What a fag!

And things like grounding out to first instead of third when there's a runner on 2nd with no outs, striking out because you were protecting a teammate attempting to steal a base, etc. are not "easily followed stats-wise" as you claim.

Now go wipe your nose, boy. Uncle G is gonna teach you a thing or two about the game.

[Snoogans]

It's easy to check ARod's stats from throughout his career, breaking them down any way you want, and see that for most of it he has been an excellent "clutch" hitter and wih runners on base or RISP. The perception that he's mostly "not clutch" or chokes with people on base is largely incorrect, no matter how many fans tell you "they know what they see."



again, those stats are just as misleading. So in the 3rd inning up 5 runs, just because a guy is on 2nd and arod gets a hit, that counts as a clutch at bat. So say that happens, then he came up in the 9th down 1 bases loaded and Ked. Guess what, those stats still have him as a 500 clutch hitter. Even though the first hit didnt mean much and when it really mattered, he blew it.

THATS WHY YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO WATCH THE GAMES

[foodcourtdruide]

again, those stats are just as misleading. So in the 3rd inning up 5 runs, just because a guy is on 2nd and arod gets a hit, that counts as a clutch at bat. So say that happens, then he came up in the 9th down 1 bases loaded and Ked. Guess what, those stats still have him as a 500 clutch hitter. Even though the first hit didnt mean much and when it really mattered, he blew it.

THATS WHY YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO WATCH THE GAMES

I don't agree with your logic here snoogans. You're making it sound like a run in the 9th inning has more value than a run in the 2nd inning.

If you are saying # of runnings on is important, then you should see A-Rod's career numbers with mulitple runners on the bases. They are very good.

[Snoogans]

I don't agree with your logic here snoogans. You're making it sound like a run in the 9th inning has more value than a run in the 2nd inning.

If you are saying # of runnings on is important, then you should see A-Rod's career numbers with mulitple runners on the bases. They are very good.

Read what i said again. 2nd inning up 5 already is way less important than down 1 in the 9th. Also stats can get tricky.

Say Arod hits 400 with RISP from april thru august. Then he hits 100 with RISP in september. that would be HORRIBLY unclutch, yet his stats for the year would still be over 300 and look very good. Thats why you have to see it sometimes.

[TheMojoPin]

Read what i said again. 2nd inning up 5 already is way less important than down 1 in the 9th. Also stats can get tricky.

Say Arod hits 400 with RISP from april thru august. Then he hits 100 with RISP in september. that would be HORRIBLY unclutch, yet his stats for the year would still be over 300 and look very good. Thats why you have to see it sometimes.

And that's why I said to look at the stats broken down month by month over his caeer, or season by season if you want. I never said to only rely on career numbers. That said, however, when someone's career is as long as his ad he's able to maintain those impressive numbers, those stats are not just jacked up by early success. If the pattern you hypothetically put up actually existed and was a consistent thing, it would be easy to spot. Go ahead and break down his seasonl numbers over each season by 1st half or 2nd half. Do it month by month. Check out the numbers with bases occupied. Check out his clutch stats.

Relying on just watching the game isn't going to give you more insight in this regard. You simply can't see everything. There is lierally nothing of significance in the game that can be only be seen and the stats can't track.

[TheMojoPin]

Hahaha!

STAT GEEK!

NERD!

Of course I was talking about basic numbers like Avg., HR, and RBI.

Not your super nerdy super duper stats!

What a fag!

And things like grounding out to first instead of third when there's a runner on 2nd with no outs, striking out because you were protecting a teammate attempting to steal a base, etc. are not "easily followed stats-wise" as you claim.

Now go wipe your nose, boy. Uncle G is gonna teach you a thing or two about the game.

Striking out to "protect" a baserunner isn't tracked because there's no need to. Anyone can catch a sign and strike out. I can't believe you're acting like this is some critical skill that only a few guys can master or that it's some super valuable part of the game that's up there with the critical offensive stats.

And you do realize that sacrifice numbers are incorporated into offensive tracking, right?

Please tell me you know that.

I'm going to assume this is a bit so I won't worry.

[Snoogans]

And that's why I said to look at the stats broken down month by month over his caeer, or season by season if you want. I never said to only rely on career numbers. That said, however, when someone's career is as long as his ad he's able to maintain those impressive numbers, those stats are not just jacked up by early success. If the pattern you hypothetically put up actually existed and was a consistent thing, it would be easy to spot.

Relying on just watching the game isn't going to give you more insight in this regard. You simply can't see everything. There is lierally nothing of significance in the game that can be only be seen and the stats can't track.

i was making a point of how it could be. I havent looked over arod's stat breakdowns. Just a point how stats can skew.

And mojo, those stats dont account for important times over less important times. The clutch stats are just hits with guys on base. No one questions arod gets a ton of those. They just never usually happen when the team REALLY needs to have it happen.

[TheMojoPin]

i was making a point of how it could be. I havent looked over arod's stat breakdowns. Just a point how stats can skew.

And mojo, those stats dont account for important times over less important times. The clutch stats are just hits with guys on base. No one questions arod gets a ton of those. They just never usually happen when the team REALLY needs to have it happen.

Actually, they do track AB's bsed on leverage.

See? (http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=rodrial01&year=00#wpa-lever)

"Clutch" stats also cover situations like that. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=rodrial01&year=00#situa-clutc), namely how they track "late and close" numbers:

Late & Close are PA in the 7th or later with the batting team tied, ahead by one, or the tying run at least on deck.

You can discern similar infor from the bases occupied numbers since some of the catergories specify the "pressure" of the situation. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=rodrial01&year=00#situa-bases)

You can track the numbers based on how he's batting with 0,1 or 2 outs in an inning, which also offers insight into how he handles different situations. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=rodrial01&year=00#situa-outs)

You can track how a player does each month to see if they wilt under late season pressure. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=rodrial01&year=00#dates-month)

The point is there simply are not these "gaps" in the tracking that would be required for these massive flaws in his game to be apparent that can only be seen. I don't know how you think things so significant would be totally missed by ALL the stats. I've never said that this guy is the perfect clutch player, but he's obviously not the clutch black hole people want him to be, and he's actually one of the better options to have up when a win is on the line.

[Snoogans]

jesus christ. If you nerds spent half as much time playin baseball as coming up with all this nonsense, you mighta made the league

[Snoogans]

try to find a stat on how often he kisses his bicepts

[TheMojoPin]

jesus christ. If you nerds spent half as much time playin baseball as coming up with all this nonsense, you mighta made the league

I was too busy being team manager. HA-RUMPH.

[TheMojoPin]

try to find a stat on how often he kisses his bicepts

It keeps blowing up the computers.

[Snoogans]

It keeps blowing up the computers.

what is derreck lee hitting on tuesdays during a new moon cycle north of the mason dixon line with no runners on and 1 out?

[TheMojoPin]

Not good enough to still be a #3 hitter on a team that has Milton Bradley and Aramis Ramirez further down the lineup, ah-doy.

[Snoogans]

Not good enough to still be a #3 hitter on a team that has Milton Bradley and Aramis Ramirez further down the lineup, ah-doy.

does it really matter the journey? The end result is predetermined

[TheMojoPin]

You shut your goddamn mouth.

[Snoogans]

You shut your goddamn mouth.

all you had to do was let the goat in the stadium. Why couldnt you just let the man bring his goat?

[TheMojoPin]

That's maybe how you animals roll in Boston, but not here. Only upstanding citizens are let into Wrigley Field:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/photo/2008-07/41211981.jpg

[Snoogans]

That's maybe how you animals roll in Boston, but not here. Only upstanding citizens are let into Wrigley Field:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/photo/2008-07/41211981.jpg

sorry i couldnt hear you over the noise of a WS parade

[epo]

all you had to do was let the goat in the stadium. Why couldnt you just let the man bring his goat?

Because they were too busy talking about Pep Johnson's OBP was to deal with a goat.

[IMSlacker]

I thought this thread was supposed to be about the greatness of Hanley Ramirez.

[Snoogans]

Because they were too busy talking about Pep Johnson's OBP was to deal with a goat.

the goat is probably cleaner then 50% of the ticket holders

[epo]

the goat is probably cleaner then 50% of the ticket holders

There is a reason they call them "bleacher bums".

Savages.

[Snoogans]

I heard Jimmy Rollins owns a goat. Maybe thats why Philly took it down last year

[epo]

I heard Jimmy Rollins owns a goat. Maybe thats why Philly took it down last year

He was also great on even numbered days on artificial turf.

[Snoogans]

He was also great on even numbered days on artificial turf.

na he is a bum. He only hit 217 in domes when it was snowing outside the dome

[epo]

na he is a bum. He only hit 217 in domes when it was snowing outside the dome

But his EQA when men are killing sharks is over .400!

[TheMojoPin]

There is a reason they call them "bleacher bums".

Savages.

I hear when Bernie goes down the slide he goes "WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!"

Pardon my team for not needing a stupid mascot and a giant slide to fill space.

[epo]

I hear when Bernie goes down the slide he goes "WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!"

I love going to Wrigley, sitting in the bleachers cuz it's the "place to be" and ignoring the game with the rest of the frat boys/yuppies. It's the best.

Drink another Old Style you commoner!

[TheMojoPin]

I know it's unfamiliar for you to deal with people having a good time at a ballpark. I hope you eventually get used to it. If you want, I'll ask the Cubs to pitch some more no-hitters in your park to try and cheer you guys up.

And remember, when you slam Old Style (and you should, it sucks), you're rightfully slamming shitty Wisconsin beer.

[epo]

I know it's unfamiliar for you to deal with people having a good time at a ballpark. I hope you eventually get used to it. If you want, I'll ask the Cubs to pitch some more no-hitters in your park to try and cheer you guys up.

And remember, when you slam Old Style (and you should, it sucks), you're rightfully slamming shitty Wisconsin beer.

Ever hear of tailgating in the parking lot before the game?

Oh wait.......

Savage.

[TheMojoPin]

Wrigley Field has been progressive in encouraging the use of public transportation for decades, thus reducing the unecessary polution caused by people driving to the game. Go ahead with your Stone Age, science-hating traditions. Do you guys all hang out and compare Bush bumper stickers, too?

And who the fuck tailgates before a baseball game? Do you people know how to do anything up there?

[epo]

Wrigley Field has been progressive in encouraging the use of public transportation for decades, thus reducing the unecessary polution caused by people driving to the game. Go ahead with your Stone Age, science-hating traditions. Do you guys all hang out and compare Bush bumper stickers, too?

And who the fuck tailgates before a baseball game? Do you people know how to do anything up there?

Blah, Blah, blah. All I read from you is the fact that you queers can't tailgate and your jealousy is obvious. We'll enjoy good food, drink and fun before the game while you ladies are riding the bus.

[IMSlacker]

Tailgating should be strictly a pre-football activity. Baseball and tailgating go together like peanut butter and salmon.

[epo]

Tailgating should be strictly a pre-football activity. Baseball and tailgating go together like peanut butter and salmon.

Hater.

[TheMojoPin]

Tailgating should be strictly a pre-football activity. Baseball and tailgating go together like peanut butter and salmon.

God only knows what else they're doing in Wisconsin if they think tailgating goes with baseball.

[K.C.]

Ever hear of tailgating in the parking lot before the game?

Oh wait.......

Savage.

I'm with Epo on this one. Tailgating Baseball is one of our God given American rights. Anyone who doesn't, is a communist.

[TheMojoPin]

Or our stadiums aren't in urban wastelands and we can enjoy good drinks, good food and good company in a comfortable setting and still get to the game with time to spare wihout paying gas or parking costs.

You silly gypsies.

[epo]

I'm with Epo on this one. Tailgating Baseball is one of our God given American rights. Anyone who doesn't, is a communist.

This KC guy has a solid head on his shoulders. A good American if you ask me.

[K.C.]

Or our stadiums aren't in urban wastelands and we can enjoy good drinks, good food and good company in a comfortable setting and still get to the game with time to spare wihout paying gas or parking costs.

You silly gypsies.

You will never know the joy of cracking that first bottle at 7AM on Opening Day, lighting the coals, and setting up washer pits (http://www.washers.org/).

I pity you and all your brethren.

[TheMojoPin]

I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of my city not dying.

[K.C.]

I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of my city not dying.

Uh.....what????

Chicago is a financial market city.

Philadelphia is a bio-tech, oil refinery, and manufacturing city.


Your town is dying a much quicker death than mine.



...unless you're talking about my ACTUAL hometown of Wilmington...which is a financial town. But, funny thing about that...because the corporate taxes are so much lower, all these financial companies are hiring here while they cut everywhere else.

[TheMojoPin]

Sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of my opulence.

[K.C.]

Sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of my opulence.

Ok, Abe Froman.

[TheMojoPin]

Hey, those sausages have bought me a fleet of monocles.

[sailor]

Sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of my flatulence.

eww

[epo]

I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of my city not dying.

That's because its been dead for years.

[TheMojoPin]

You live in Milwuakee.

[epo]

You smell awful and have a terrible beard. Seriously...that thing is an embarrassment to us all.

[TheMojoPin]

"Us?"

Don't try and drag me down with you Wisconsonian subhumans.

[epo]

Subhumans? That's rich coming from a dirty hippie without a real job.

Seriously, the bums lost. The war is over. Get a god damned job and shave that hideous beard.

[TheMojoPin]

Big talk coming from a muskie that learned to walk and wear pants.

[cougarjake13]

Tailgating should be strictly a pre-football activity. Baseball and tailgating go together like peanut butter and salmon.

agreed


everytime i see it


it just looks outta place

[epo]

Big talk coming from a muskie that learned to walk and wear pants.

That's muskellunge for a commoner like yourself. Of course I couldn't expect "big words" from a boy who is the first generation in his family to walk upright.

[TheMojoPin]

I am bored by your antics. You are dismissed, lowly jester. Send in the dancing girls.

[Snoogans]

I am bored by your anics. You are dismissed, lowly jester. Send in the dancing girls.

as you requested

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[TheMojoPin]

Hmmmmmm.

The one they call "Orel" pleases me.

Have her washed and sent to my bedchambers.

[Snoogans]

more dancing girls:
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