Beijing tower fire proves 9/11 conspiracy?

[LordJezo]

This was sent to me earlier today.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/AwV5amOxcv8&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/AwV5amOxcv8&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Seems to be gaining traction and making the rounds.

(note: I don't believe this particular stuff at all, but it is topical and being discussed in certain circles)

[TheMojoPin]

It's the same self-defeating argument that ignores reality...a fire like that is missing some key things that the 9/11 fires had...namely massive amounts of burning jet fuel and a huge crash that damaged the structure and knocked the fireproofing off of the support structures at the points of impact.

WTC7 was hit by large debris from the crashes and the collapsing towers. The fires alone did not bring that building down.

"Truthers" are REALLY dumb at this point.

[hammersavage]

No matter what evidence I'm shown I just don't think I could ever believe that in my life. I couldn't live with it.

[Furtherman]

Seems to be gaining traction and making the rounds.

(note: I don't believe this particular stuff at all, but it is topical and being discussed in certain circles)

No it isn't, and those circles are loopy.

[TheMojoPin]

No matter what evidence I'm shown I just don't think I could ever believe that in my life. I couldn't live with it.

You haven't been shown any evidence.

[Snoogans]

You haven't been shown any evidence.

exactly. Its a bit harder for a building to stand up after something puts a huge hole in it, unlike that hotel

[hammersavage]

They weren't comparing it to the two towers in the video. WTC 7 I think.

[TheMojoPin]

exactly. Its a bit harder for a building to stand up after something puts a huge hole in it, unlike that hotel

I love how Truthers act like the building was only on fire and totally ignore that it had a fucking chunk 10 stories long knocked out of it by the collapses.

[TheMojoPin]

They weren't comparing it to the two towers in the video. WTC 7 I think.

WTC7 was hit by large debris from the crashes and the collapsing towers. The fires alone did not bring that building down.

WTC7 wasn't just a building on fire. It was a building on fire that had sustained serious structural damage.

[dino_electropolis]

You haven't been shown any evidence.

I havent been shown any evidence that a "plane" hit the Pentagon.


You know, the intelligence hub of the USA, but not ONE security camera clearly showing a plane impacting?


No evidence, indeed.

[hammersavage]

WTC7 wasn't just a building on fire. It was a building on fire that had sustained serious structural damage.

I agree. I was just stating what the video had.

[JerseyRich]

Ugh. Why is there so much bad rap music out there?

That song was really terrible.

[TheMojoPin]

I havent been shown any evidence that a "plane" hit the Pentagon.

Yes, you have.

Evidence isn't simply video footage. Forensic evidence is hinged on physical evidence. I don't know how all the plane and human debris recovered at the Pentagon don't count as "evidence," but in the real world they do.

http://media.popularmechanics.com/images/911-flight77-debris.jpg

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/aa_debris_serialcropped.jpg/aa_debris_serialcropped-full.jpg

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/7725.jpg/7725-full.jpg

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/PentagonDebrisMontagecopy1.jpg/PentagonDebrisMontagecopy1-full.jpg

[dino_electropolis]

Ugh. Why is there so much bad rap music out there?

That song was really terrible.

Well, it sounded like a white guy rapping, so that never turns out right....

[hammersavage]

Well, it sounded like a white guy rapping, so that never turns out right....

I'm gonna tell Snow the bad news.

[ToiletCrusher]

these conspiracy theories suck. It doesn't hold any clout until they have a real structural engineer that would back up these crazy claims.

[TheMojoPin]

these conspiracy theories suck. It doesn't hold any clout until they have a real structural engineer that would back up these crazy claims.

They don't need those, maaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnn!!! They can see the truth with their EYESSSSSS.

[dino_electropolis]

Yes, you have.

Evidence isn't simply video footage. Forensic evidence is hinged on physical evidence. I don't know how all the plane and human debris recovered at the Pentagon don't count as "evidence," but in the real world they do.

http://media.popularmechanics.com/images/911-flight77-debris.jpg

Laughable.


Perhaps you, the all knowing Mojo Pin know that what you are looking at is from a piece of a plane....looks like twisted metal to me.

watch this, and educate yourself.

http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm

Oh, the blissful life of the ignorant!

[AngryAsianGuy]

Beijing tower fire proves 9/11 conspiracy?

No it doesn't. Leave us out of your crazy conspiracy theories.

[ToiletCrusher]

They don't need those, maaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnn!!! They can see the truth with their EYESSSSSS.

duly noted. I am for conspiracies now. Did you know that MLB has a satellite to spy on us?

[Furtherman]

Laughable.

I really, really, really hope this was typed with loving sarcasm.

[dino_electropolis]

I really, really, really hope this was typed with loving sarcasm.

Did you take the time to watch the video or you just shootin from the hip?

[TheMojoPin]

Laughable.


Perhaps you, the all knowing Mojo Pin know that what you are looking at is from a piece of a plane....looks like twisted metal to me.

watch this, and educate yourself.

http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm

Oh, the blissful life of the ignorant!

I can only assume you're joking.

At least I hope you are.

Please be joking. (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=6)

They recovered huge amounts of plane wreckage and human remans from Flight 77 at the Pentagon. Dozens of people saw the plane come in low and crash.

[Furtherman]

Did you take the time to watch the video or you just shootin from the hip?

Seen it. Laughable. No sarcasm.

[TheMojoPin]

Did you take the time to watch the video or you just shootin from the hip?

That video and its ilk, like Loose Change, don't prove anything. They have no basis in any kind of forensic investigation or understanding of engineering and the like. They're routinely debunked by professionals in the appropriate fields, yet people continue to place stock in a bunch of schlubs whose knowledge in these areas are slim to none. Their arguments are based completely around something they think they've seen. That's it. That doesn't prove anything. The counterarguments have actual engineering and science that can explain exactly what happened and why and then present the evidence that proves it. The "Truthers" can do no such thing.

[dino_electropolis]

Seen it. Laughable. No sarcasm.

Well, some people deny the holocaust happened as well, so..... i guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.....lingyere lowngerie

[TheMojoPin]

Well, some people deny the holocaust happened as well, so..... i guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.....lingyere lowngerie

Yes, 9/11 Truthers are the equivalent of Holocaust deniers. Very good point.

[Furtherman]

Well, some people deny the holocaust happened as well, so..... i guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.....lingyere lowngerie

That statement is so inane that it should be an amendment to Godwin's Law.

[TheMojoPin]

Please bear with this, because it uses a lot of actual science instead of just goofy hyperbole, but this will clarify a lot with the Pentagon. (http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0265.shtml)

More along these lines. (http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0274.shtml)

Still more. (http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0290.shtml)

The Truthers can offer nothing along these lines because the evidence they have amounts to zero, hence the leaping to batshit theories about missiles, disguised planes, drone crafts, holograms, etc.. They hae nothing except selectively chosen and edited video clips and scary music.

[dino_electropolis]

That statement is so inane that it should be an amendment to Godwin's Law.

I didnt realize you and Mojopin were dating, but i find it sweet in light of the holiday tomorrow.


My point is that some people will believe what they will believe, despite what others may tell them which undermines their beliefs.


I didnt say anyone here was the equivalent of a holocause denier, i was just making a point that, well, read my previous statement.

Of course, Mojo, being the douche that he is, takes it upon himself to equate "truthers" (whatever that means) to holocaust deniers.

Class act, that Mojo.

[Furtherman]

Please bear with this, because it uses a lot of actual science instead of just goofy hyperbole, but this will clarify a lot with the Pentagon. (http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0265.shtml)

More along these lines. (http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0274.shtml)

But Mojo, the guys who made Pentagon Strike are British. Surely they know best!

[dino_electropolis]

Please bear with this, because it uses a lot of actual science instead of just goofy hyperbole, but this will clarify a lot with the Pentagon. (http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0265.shtml)

More along these lines. (http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0274.shtml)

Still more. (http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0290.shtml)

The Truthers can offer nothing along these lines because the evidence they have amounts to zero, hence the leaping to batshit theories about missiles, disguised planes, drone crafts, holograms, etc.. They hae nothing except selectively chosen and edited video clips and scary music.

Me no like science graph.

Me like scary music.

[Furtherman]

Of course, Mojo, being the douche that he is, takes it upon himself to equate "truthers" (whatever that means) to holocaust deniers.

If you are believing Pentagon Strike, then you know exactly what it means.

And Mojo's equation is correct.




Mojo, where we going tomorrow sweetie? Wiener Circle?

[TheMojoPin]

I didnt realize you and Mojopin were dating, but i find it sweet in light of the holiday tomorrow.


My point is that some people will believe what they will believe, despite what others may tell them which undermines their beliefs.


I didnt say anyone here was the equivalent of a holocause denier, i was just making a point that, well, read my previous statement.

Of course, Mojo, being the douche that he is, takes it upon himself to equate "truthers" (whatever that means) to holocaust deniers.

Class act, that Mojo.

Hah! Yeah, nevermind you were the one that brought up Holocaust deniers, but of course that had nothing to do with anything you're arguing here. It was just a random slip of the tounge. Please.

It has nothing to do with "beliefs" when we're talking about actual forensic ad scientific investigation. That doesn't require "belief" because it shows you exactly what happened and how. It can be proven. YOUR viewpoint is the one that requires "belief" because it's not based on anything besides theories, assumptions and guesses. The burden of proof i one the people who claim to know "the truth," yet they can't prove anything. Meanwhile, what actually happened can be proven with the mountain of evidence behind it.

Which side is having their "beliefs" undermined again?

[dino_electropolis]

Please bear with this, because it uses a lot of actual science instead of just goofy hyperbole, but this will clarify a lot with the Pentagon. (http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0265.shtml)

More along these lines. (http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0274.shtml)

Still more. (http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0290.shtml)

The Truthers can offer nothing along these lines because the evidence they have amounts to zero, hence the leaping to batshit theories about missiles, disguised planes, drone crafts, holograms, etc.. They hae nothing except selectively chosen and edited video clips and scary music.

BTW, http://www.aerospaceweb.org/about ....non-profit company selling advertising to Dianetics and Homeland Survival Kit.

[TheMojoPin]

Mojo, where we going tomorrow sweetie? Wiener Circle?

That hurts. Wiener Circle was actually a famous and awesome Chicago hot dog place that got shut down this winter due to health code violations. I MISS IT SO.

[Furtherman]

That hurts. Wiener Circle was actually a famous and awesome Chicago hot dog place that got shut down this winter due to health code violations. I MISS IT SO.

Damn, I had no idea. Sorry for your loss.

[TheMojoPin]

BTW, http://www.aerospaceweb.org/about ....non-profit company selling advertising to Dianetics and Homeland Survival Kit.

And? RonFez.net has ad banners for Scientology and gay chubby dating. Whoopedee-doo. Show us how the science is wrong and how the Truther theories are right.

[hammersavage]

That hurts. Wiener Circle was actually a famous and awesome Chicago hot dog place that got shut down this winter due to health code violations. I MISS IT SO.

High levels of jizz? Body glitter in the food?? Waiter's boy shorts too short???

[TheMojoPin]

Damn, I had no idea. Sorry for your loss.

The worst part? They got shut down because of ONIONS. Cooked onions not being kept cold enough. No, all the pig anuses in the hot dogs are fine, BUT DON'T LET THOSE ONIONS GET TOO WARM!

It was one of those late night places where you could go and get yelled at by the staff. So good.

[dino_electropolis]

Hah! Yeah, nevermind you were the one that brought up Holocaust deniers, but of course that had nothing to do with anything you're arguing here. It was just a random slip of the tounge. Please.

It has nothing to do with "beliefs" when we're talking about actual forensic ad scientific investigation. That doesn't require "belief" because it shows you exactly what happened and how. It can be proven. YOUR viewpoint is the one that requires "belief" because it's not based on anything besides theories, assumptions and guesses. The burden of proof i one the people who claim to know "the truth," yet they can't prove anything. Meanwhile, what actually happened can be proven with the mountain of evidence behind it.

Which side is having their "beliefs" undermined again?

And from where are you getting this evidence? Who is the source of all these pieces of evidence? The government?

Yeah, they are reaaaaaaal trustworthy bunch. They NEVER lie.

( from A Perfect Circle, "Pet")
....I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices son
They're one and the same
I must isolate you
Isolate and save you from yourself

Swayin' to the rhythm of the new world order and
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
The boogeymen are coming
The boogeymen are coming
Keep your head down, go to sleep
To the rhythm of the war drums

Stay with me
Safe and ignorant
Just stay with me
I'll hold you and protect you from the other ones,
The evil ones, don't love you son,
Go back to sleep.

[dino_electropolis]

And? RonFez.net has ad banners for Scientology and gay chubby dating. Whoopedee-doo. Show us how the science is wrong and how the Truther theories are right.

Point taken as it pertains to the Scientology.


But i defy you to deny that, deep down, we are all here for Gay Chubby Dating.

[Furtherman]

Forget it Mojo, it's Chinatown.

He's not even curious about your links.

[TheMojoPin]

Wiener Circle antics:

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It's actually really close to Molly's.

[underdog]

Please bear with this, because it uses a lot of actual science instead of just goofy hyperbole, but this will clarify a lot with the Pentagon. (http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0265.shtml)

More along these lines. (http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0274.shtml)

Still more. (http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0290.shtml)

The Truthers can offer nothing along these lines because the evidence they have amounts to zero, hence the leaping to batshit theories about missiles, disguised planes, drone crafts, holograms, etc.. They hae nothing except selectively chosen and edited video clips and scary music.

Isn't there also security tape video captures of a plane hitting the pentagon?

[boosterp]

I didnt realize you and Mojopin were dating, but i find it sweet in light of the holiday tomorrow.


My point is that some people will believe what they will believe, despite what others may tell them which undermines their beliefs.


I didnt say anyone here was the equivalent of a holocause denier, i was just making a point that, well, read my previous statement.

Of course, Mojo, being the douche that he is, takes it upon himself to equate "truthers" (whatever that means) to holocaust deniers.

Class act, that Mojo.

So you result to insults rather than debate what Mojo posted. You sir lack all class and do not deserve to have others read the silliness you post.

[EliSnow]

And from where are you getting this evidence? Who is the source of all these pieces of evidence? The government?

Yeah, they are reaaaaaaal trustworthy bunch. They NEVER lie.

( from A Perfect Circle, "Pet")
....I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices son
They're one and the same
I must isolate you
Isolate and save you from yourself

Swayin' to the rhythm of the new world order and
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
The boogeymen are coming
The boogeymen are coming
Keep your head down, go to sleep
To the rhythm of the war drums

Stay with me
Safe and ignorant
Just stay with me
I'll hold you and protect you from the other ones,
The evil ones, don't love you son,
Go back to sleep.

So your proof that the government is lying is a song?

[TheMojoPin]

And from where are you getting this evidence? Who is the source of all these pieces of evidence? The government?

Yeah, they are reaaaaaaal trustworthy bunch. They NEVER lie.

Ah, so you think the government, namely the Bush administration, are capable of pulling of a gigantic conspiracy of supervillan-esque proportions...and getting away with it.

The government weren't the only investigators in regards to 9/11. Thousands of independent engineers, investigators, experts and forensic analysts were brought in to figure out what happened. You honestly believe all of those people willingly went along with the conspiracy or were duped? THOUSANDS of people have to be complicit in this thing for it be an "inside job."

[dino_electropolis]

Wiener Circle antics:

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<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/KFhogxh6zbk&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/KFhogxh6zbk&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

It's actually really close to Molly's.


Ha, this place looked like a fun time at 3am..... now, I wouldnt eat a damn thing in the joint, but would have definitely stumbled in there for a laugh or two.

[TheMojoPin]

Isn't there also security tape video captures of a plane hitting the pentagon?

Yeah, but its pretty hard to make out since it's not a continuous video and instead is one of those stuttered frame security feeds. You can see a blur over the lawn starting to come into the frame right about to hit the Pentagon and then the explosion.

In the end, however, video is moot. Most crimes happen without video or photographic record of it happening, hence why people have to investigate and find all the forensic evidence and figure out what happened. Truthers don't do that and instead rely ONLY on video and photographs, which only tell a fraction of the story.

[topless_mike]

well, personally, not to start shit, but i think our own govt hired or some how collaborated in getting 9/11 done. not saying W or anybody specific, could have even been a rogue military cell within the higher brass. truth is we'll never know, really. and we'll never really know where that flight 93 was heading for real.

just my thoughts. i dont have any evidence to support it. nor, do i have to.



im not a conspiracy whore, nor one of those circlisit denier folk.
just forming my own opinion.

[dino_electropolis]

So your proof that the government is lying is a song?

Eli, et tu, Eli?

Do i really need proof that the government lies?


Uhm, ok, where do we start? The Small Pox infected blankets we gave to the "savage" indians, or perhaps...http://www.notmytribe.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/colin-powell-united-nations-chemical-wmd-lie-anthrax-vial.jpg


or how about "We found the weapons of mass destruction." [Bush, 5/29/03]

Nice try, eli. Your smarter than this. I expected more from you.

[TheMojoPin]

Ha, this place looked like a fun time at 3am..... now, I wouldnt eat a damn thing in the joint, but would have definitely stumbled in there for a laugh or two.

Definitely a lot of fun after a night of drinking, though it's close enough to DePaul that sometimes it gets overrun by sloshed frat assholes.

[yojimbo7248]

Is that Vanilla Ice rapping in that first video? Joaquin Phoenix? It's kind of catchy.

[hammersavage]

Do i really need proof that the government lies?


Uhm, ok, where do we start? The Small Pox infected blankets we gave to the "savage" indians, or perhaps...

Offensive :glurps:

[TheMojoPin]

Eli, et tu, Eli?

Do i really need proof that the government lies?


Uhm, ok, where do we start? The Small Pox infected blankets we gave to the "savage" indians, or perhaps...http://www.notmytribe.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/colin-powell-united-nations-chemical-wmd-lie-anthrax-vial.jpg


or how about "We found the weapons of mass destruction." [Bush, 5/29/03]

Nice try, eli. Your smarter than this. I expected more from you.

But here's the thing...THEY GET BUSTED. Of course our government lies...and the bigger the lie, the more sensationally it all falls apart. The government being behind 9/11 would be the biggest goddamn series of lies they'd ever undertaken. It would have to be massive, involving hundreds or, more likely, thousands of people. Yet somehow, this massive conspiracy has not been exposed. At all. No confession, no accidental slip of the tounge, no found or leaked documents or evidence...none of the things we almost always see when our government lies.

Look at Watergate. That's a government lie and conspiracy that went right to the top and involved a fraction of the people that it would have taken to "pull off" the inside job version of 9/11. It toppled like a house of cards. That's reality. If a lie this big was actually reality, it would have been exposed by now. Something would have come out or been exposed.

[TheMojoPin]

well, personally, not to start shit, but i think our own govt hired or some how collaborated in getting 9/11 done. not saying W or anybody specific, could have even been a rogue military cell within the higher brass. truth is we'll never know, really. and we'll never really know where that flight 93 was heading for real.

just my thoughts. i dont have any evidence to support it. nor, do i have to.

Well, you sort of do have to. I mean, if you're going to say you believe in something, it's not like you're off the hook in justifying it. I could say I believe that the sun is purple and whales can fly and that it's just my opinion, but people are going to to wonder how the hell I reached that conclusion.

Why do you have that opinion? What is it based on?

[dino_electropolis]

well, personally, not to start shit, but i think our own govt hired or some how collaborated in getting 9/11 done. not saying W or anybody specific, could have even been a rogue military cell within the higher brass. truth is we'll never know, really. and we'll never really know where that flight 93 was heading for real.

just my thoughts. i dont have any evidence to support it. nor, do i have to.



im not a conspiracy whore, nor one of those circlisit denier folk.
just forming my own opinion.

Must be something in the watersphere drinking water
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/26/40826721_e83fcc956f.jpg?v=0

[dino_electropolis]

But here's the thing...THEY GET BUSTED. Of course our government lies...and the bigger the lie, the more sensationally it all falls apart. The government being behind 9/11 would be the biggest goddamn series of lies they'd ever undertaken. It would have to be massive, involving hundreds or, more likely, thousands of people. Yet somehow, this massive conspiracy has not been exposed. At all. No confession, no accidental slip of the tounge, no found or leaked documents or evidence...none of the things we almost always see when our government lies.

Look at Watergate. That's a government lie and conspiracy that went right to the top and involved a fraction of the people that it would have taken to "pull off" the inside job version of 9/11. It toppled like a house of cards. That's reality. If a lie this big was actually reality, it would have been exposed by now. Something would have come out or been exposed.

I agree, it would take a pretty efficient government to prevent info to get out, and well, we havent had an efficient government since, well......


As for the watergate analogy, that was just sloppy because the press in the US was on the cusp of change, where the wink wink hush hush tactics of yesteryear were brushed aside. Now, with all media coverage all the time, a government would be a bit smarter in how it conducts itself, for both legitimate and illegitimate purposes.

[EliSnow]

Eli, et tu, Eli?

Do i really need proof that the government lies?


Uhm, ok, where do we start? The Small Pox infected blankets we gave to the "savage" indians, or perhaps...http://www.notmytribe.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/colin-powell-united-nations-chemical-wmd-lie-anthrax-vial.jpg


or how about "We found the weapons of mass destruction." [Bush, 5/29/03]

Nice try, eli. Your smarter than this. I expected more from you.


The point is that the fact that the "government could lie or has lied about other things is not proof that they are lying about this. Add in the facts that their findings have been corroborated by independent experts and that the opposition is limited to easily disproven theories and statements like the government can't be trusted, ita4 pretty clear that the onspiracy shit is exactly that, shit.

And I realice this because I am smart and demand proof not "what might bes" or "the government is evil.

[Knowledged_one]

I never realized how truly retarded some posters here are till now.
i know people that were at the pentagon that day and i tend to believe them rather then some hack website with scary music. You do the dead a diservice with your idiotic talk

[dino_electropolis]

The point is that the fact that the "government could lie or has lied about other things is not proof that they are lying about this. Add in the facts that their findings have been corroborated by independent experts and that the opposition is limited to easily disproven theories and statements like the government can't be trusted, ita4 pretty clear that the onspiracy shit is exactly that, shit.

And I realice this because I am smart and demand proof not "what might bes" or "the government is evil.


So, if you could, you would have no problem voting bush/cheney/powell into office?

You are way more forgiving than me.

[TheMojoPin]

As for the watergate analogy, that was just sloppy because the press in the US was on the cusp of change, where the wink wink hush hush tactics of yesteryear were brushed aside. Now, with all media coverage all the time, a government would be a bit smarter in how it conducts itself, for both legitimate and illegitimate purposes.

Back then, with the press being less pervasive and the presidency being much more powerful, it would have been far easier to pull off a major lie like that. And really, the press didn't "get" that one...Woodward and Bernstein were just nibbling around the outside until people on the inside decided to talk. That's what always happens...people talk. Leaks, confessions, tell-alls...whatever...people talk. The more sensational and outrageous the lie, the more likely it is that someone somewhere will talk, either on purpose or by mistake. That hasn't happened here. That's simply not realistic given the amount of people that would hae to be involved and the extremely sensationa nature of the event. The government is actually "weaker" now than then in terms of being insulated and being able to hide or get away with things. The nature of the media today doesn't make them "smarter"...as we've seen, the government gets busted on lies and screw ups more now than any time in our nation's history.

[TheMojoPin]

So, if you could, you would have no problem voting bush/cheney/powell into office?

You are way more forgiving than me.

I don't see how you got that from his post.

[EliSnow]

So, if you could, you would have no problem voting bush/cheney/powell into office?

You are way more forgiving than me.


Can you say strawman?

Whether or I would vote for these guys has nothing to do with whether I believe the findings of numerous other people unrelated to these men.

[dino_electropolis]

I never realized how truly retarded some posters here are till now.
i know people that were at the pentagon that day and i tend to believe them rather then some hack website with scary music. You do the dead a diservice with your idiotic talk

Do ya? Do ya REALLY know people who were there that day?

So they saw the plane? i mean they just happened to be outside smoking a cigarette or parking there car, or staring out their window hoping for something to just kinda shake up thier lives and BOOM.....in the (how many seconds) span of time, they saw the plane.

I mean, they told you that they saw the plane ,right? They must have. Otherwise your statement would really kinda make you look like a loudmouth retard.

I dont see how seeking the truth does a diservice to anyone, let alone the dead, whose deaths are what drives us to find out the truth.

you seem emotional.....cool your jets, honey.

[yojimbo7248]

I never realized how truly retarded some posters here are till now.
i know people that were at the pentagon that day and i tend to believe them rather then some hack website with scary music. You do the dead a diservice with your idiotic talk

Same here.

A friend of mine was in an office building facing the Pentagon and watched the jet hit the building. I also know several people who where in the part of the building that was hit.

I appreciate people's healthy disrespect for authority and I like the questioning spirit of a lot of conspiracy people. It's simply unacceptable, however, to say you have no evidence to back up your opinion. I don't get it when someone proudly says, "I believe what I believe and I don't give a shit about facts or reality".

I think it is because we go too far in this country in respecting religious beliefs but that's for another thread.

[dino_electropolis]

I don't see how you got that from his post.

Because he states something along the lines that just because the government lied in the past, their present actions shouldn't be scrutinized....he's takin a criminal defense approach to something that is well beyond that.

Thomas Jefferson:

All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.



When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.


So i guess that makes him a "Truther"

[Furtherman]

Bec

Thomas Jefferson:

All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.



He also said: "Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day."

You need some serious enlightenment.

[underdog]

Your smarter than this.

Obviously you're not.

[dino_electropolis]

He also said: "Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day."

You need some serious enlightenment.

Furtherman, you have no idea what i do and do not know. I am pretty familiar with many areas of philosophy, political sciece and literature that i can proudly say i am probably ahead of the curve of "general" enlightenment. I took a course in law school called "Law of War". I tell you this not to impress you or stroke my own ego, but to remind you that you should probably think before you speak, or type, as it were.

Your attack is hack, and well, suprising.

[EliSnow]

Because he states something along the lines that just because the government lied in the past, their present actions shouldn't be scrutinized....he's takin a criminal defense approach to something that is well beyond that.

That's not what I said. My point based in logic and science is that something has to be proven to be accepted. The fact that the government may lie does not mean it is lying. And when the evidence supports them and there is no valid evidence suggesting they are lying, it means it's more likely than not that they are not lying.

That's not criminal defense, that's intelligence.

[TheMojoPin]

Because he states something along the lines that just because the government lied in the past, their present actions shouldn't be scrutinized....he's takin a criminal defense approach to something that is well beyond that.

He didn't say we shouldn't cast a critical eye at the government. If there's evidence to do so with 9/11, by all means, we should be charging ahead. There simply isn't any evidence that that is the case. It's one thing to distrust authority and another to dismiss sound evidence and investigation and champion poorly argued fantasy simply because the government is involved.

[Knowledged_one]

Do ya? Do ya REALLY know people who were there that day?

So they saw the plane? i mean they just happened to be outside smoking a cigarette or parking there car, or staring out their window hoping for something to just kinda shake up thier lives and BOOM.....in the (how many seconds) span of time, they saw the plane.

I mean, they told you that they saw the plane ,right? They must have. Otherwise your statement would really kinda make you look like a loudmouth retard.

I dont see how seeking the truth does a diservice to anyone, let alone the dead, whose deaths are what drives us to find out the truth.

you seem emotional.....cool your jets, honey.

im emotional because of lowlife pieces of shit like you throw out ignorant statements with no factual basis then have the gall to call me a liar. Well you stupid little fuck i was working for the dod at the time so yeah i know people who saw it.

go climb back into the hole you crawled out of you miserable excuse for a human. rules about personal attacks here be damned

[TheMojoPin]

OK, let's step back for a moment. We can argue and debate this without it devolving further into just attacking each other.

[Furtherman]

Your attack is hack, and well, suprising.

Well since you've decided to use historical quotes in your argument, I figured using one right back would cancel it out and we could cut through the bullshit clutter such a tactic makes. I don't care what class you took or what book you read, that's still no excuse, albeit illogical, to expect anyone with common sense to believe that the Pentagon strike was anything but an airplane.

[dino_electropolis]

That's not what I said. My point based in logic and science is that something has to be proven to be accepted. The fact that the government may lie does not mean it is lying. And when the evidence supports them and there is no valid evidence suggesting they are lying, it means it's more likely than not that they are not lying.

That's not criminal defense, that's intelligence.

SCIENCE held that the world was flat.

SCIENCE held that you could turn any metal into gold

SCIENCE held that the Sun revolved around the Earth.

So much for Science.

As for logic, well, an ignorant bigot (not calling you an ignorant bigot, btw) would think that if a house was broken into, and a black man was seen on the street, the black man must have been the culprit. Its only logical.

The thing with logic is that it is based on premises. If the premise is faulty, so is the logical conclusion.


Hows that for intelligence?

[EliSnow]

He didn't say we shouldn't cast a critical eye at the government. If there's evidence to do so with 9/11, by all means, we should be charging ahead. There simply isn't any evidence that that is the case. It's one thing to distrust authority and another to dismiss sound evidence and investigation and champion poorly argued fantasy simply because the government is involved.

Exactly. The government should be scrutinized. But if it's position holds up under scrutiny and the evidence supports it, the government shouldn't be disbelieved just because it's the government.

[midwestjeff]

I don't care what class you took or what book you read, that's still no excuse, albeit illogical, to expect anyone with common sense to believe that the Pentagon strike was anything but an airplane.

I am a follower of Mojo's flying whale theory.

Let's face it, they've been in cahoots with Bin Laden
every since they left the salty confines of the ocean.

[dino_electropolis]

im emotional because of lowlife pieces of shit like you throw out ignorant statements with no factual basis then have the gall to call me a liar. Well you stupid little fuck i was working for the dod at the time so yeah i know people who saw it.

go climb back into the hole you crawled out of you miserable excuse for a human. rules about personal attacks here be damned

I didnt call you a liar. I called you emotional.

As for the personal attacks, you want in, pal? Ok

So you were working for the Department of Defense at the time? Good job protecting the country from terrorist attacks. Keep up the good work.

(i wouldnt normally get to that level, but you push, and i push back)

[EliSnow]

I didnt call you a liar. I called you emotional.

As for the personal attacks, you want in, pal? Ok

So you were working for the Department of Defense at the time? Good job protecting the country from terrorist attacks. Keep up the good work.

(i wouldnt normally get to that level, but you push, and i push back)

Mojo said knock it off. One more attack like that you're gone.

[yojimbo7248]

I didnt call you a liar. I called you emotional.

As for the personal attacks, you want in, pal? Ok

So you were working for the Department of Defense at the time? Good job protecting the country from terrorist attacks. Keep up the good work.

(i wouldnt normally get to that level, but you push, and i push back)

Careful. You are broadening your insults to include a lot of us.

[TheMojoPin]

SCIENCE held that the world was flat.

SCIENCE held that you could turn any metal into gold

SCIENCE held that the Sun revolved around the Earth.

So much for Science.

As for logic, well, an ignorant bigot (not calling you an ignorant bigot, btw) would think that if a house was broken into, and a black man was seen on the street, the black man must have been the culprit. Its only logical.

The thing with logic is that it is based on premises. If the premise is faulty, so is the logical conclusion.


Hows that for intelligence?

Do you really want an answer?

You just dismissed science because of exactly what it does...it evolves and changes and adapts as new discoveries and theories ad evidence are found.

That said, it's a complete strawman. You seem to be implying that the scientific theories used in the 9/11 investigation are somehow in danger of being proven completely wrong a la scientific theories that were debunked hundreds of years ago. That's ludicrous.

[Furtherman]

SCIENCE held that the world was flat.

SCIENCE held that you could turn any metal into gold

SCIENCE held that the Sun revolved around the Earth.


Actually, science proved all those concepts wrong. I mean c'mon, if you took all those classes you should know that the whole "the world is flat" perception is largely a myth. As far back as the 2nd century BC, educated people thought of the world as round.

The other two statements are just as incorrect.

[TheMojoPin]

I am a follower of Mojo's flying whale theory.

Let's face it, they've been in cahoots with Bin Laden
every since they left the salty confines of the ocean.

I like the cut of your jib.

Would you care to hear about my "sharks did 9/11" theory?

[EliSnow]

The thing with logic is that it is based on premises. If the premise is faulty, so is the logical conclusion.


Hows that for intelligence?

How's this? There's nothing to suggest that the premises are faulty and a lot of evidence to suggest they are sound. Thus, it it should be believed until proven faulty.

[dino_electropolis]

I didnt call you a liar. I called you emotional.

As for the personal attacks, you want in, pal? Ok

So you were working for the Department of Defense at the time? Good job protecting the country from terrorist attacks. Keep up the good work.

(i wouldnt normally get to that level, but you push, and i push back)

Ok, so i feel guilty about my last jab.

My apologies to Knowledged One and anyone else who was offended.

We all get worked up here because we have one thing in common: we love this country.

We may disagree at times, but lets keep in mind that in the end, it stems from our love for our country.

[TheMojoPin]

Actually, science proved all those concepts wrong. I mean c'mon, if you took all those classes you should know that the whole "the world is flat" perception is largely a myth. As far back as the 2nd century BC, educated people thought of the world as round.

The other two statements are just as incorrect.

No WAY, maaaaaannnnn!!! Alchemy proves that the government blew up the Pentagon!

[dino_electropolis]

Ok, so i feel guilty about my last jab.

My apologies to Knowledged One and anyone else who was offended.

We all get worked up here because we have one thing in common: we love this country.

We may disagree at times, but lets keep in mind that in the end, it stems from our love for our country.

Eli, lest you think your "banning" threat had any impact on me, you should know i was typing this before i even read it.

[EliSnow]

Eli, lest you think your "banning" threat had any impact on me, you should know i was typing this before i even read it.

I don't care one way or another. The fact still stands: any more attacks there will be banning.

[dino_electropolis]

Alright, quitting time, shutting down cpu and heading home.....enjoy the weekend all.


Its always a pleasure to engage in some cerebral sparring especially with those of you equipped to do so.

[TheMojoPin]

http://z.about.com/d/familycrafts/1/0/h/o/1/ct2-40_iron.jpg

http://www.200.com/Knee_L.jpg

[Serpico1103]

This was sent to me earlier today.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/AwV5amOxcv8&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/AwV5amOxcv8&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Seems to be gaining traction and making the rounds.

(note: I don't believe this particular stuff at all, but it is topical and being discussed in certain circles)

I can't watch the video. Is that music supposed to add to the argument?

[keithy_19]

Can I tell someone in a thread that I don't like them very much? Or will this get me banned?

[EliSnow]

Can I tell someone in a thread that I don't like them very much? Or will this get me banned?

You can tell someone you don't like them. Just be careful about the insults that you may want to use in doing so.

[spoon]

So your proof that the government is lying is a song?

Hey, I've broke up with girls before and that alone taught me songs know all!

Mind you, these chicks had tits.

[boosterp]

I never realized how truly retarded some posters here are till now.
i know people that were at the pentagon that day and i tend to believe them rather then some hack website with scary music. You do the dead a diservice with your idiotic talk

Do ya? Do ya REALLY know people who were there that day?

So they saw the plane? i mean they just happened to be outside smoking a cigarette or parking there car, or staring out their window hoping for something to just kinda shake up thier lives and BOOM.....in the (how many seconds) span of time, they saw the plane.

I mean, they told you that they saw the plane ,right? They must have. Otherwise your statement would really kinda make you look like a loudmouth retard.

I dont see how seeking the truth does a diservice to anyone, let alone the dead, whose deaths are what drives us to find out the truth.

you seem emotional.....cool your jets, honey.

I didnt call you a liar. I called you emotional.

As for the personal attacks, you want in, pal? Ok

So you were working for the Department of Defense at the time? Good job protecting the country from terrorist attacks. Keep up the good work.

(i wouldnt normally get to that level, but you push, and i push back)

Ok, so i feel guilty about my last jab.

My apologies to Knowledged One and anyone else who was offended.

We all get worked up here because we have one thing in common: we love this country.

We may disagree at times, but lets keep in mind that in the end, it stems from our love for our country.

Fuck you, you apology means shit.

[spoon]

Fuck you, you apology means shit.

nice

kill the whole I'll ban you shit and let it roll

Boosterp for admin!

[EliSnow]

nice

kill the whole I'll ban you shit and let it roll

Boosterp for admin!

I don't see a personal attack in what he said. And by he I mean booster.

[spoon]

I don't see a personal attack in what he said. And by he I mean booster.

Dammit!

I thought I was backing a hot lump o lady!

[EliSnow]

Dammit!

I thought I was backing a hot lump o lady!


Is booster a "she?". If so, I apologize.

[spoon]

Is booster a "she?". If so, I apologize.

Ha!

Oh eli, ur silly.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

Is booster a "she?". If so, I apologize.

God Bless Spoon, he somehow made this thread funny

[keithy_19]

I didnt call you a liar. I called you emotional.

As for the personal attacks, you want in, pal? Ok

So you were working for the Department of Defense at the time? Good job protecting the country from terrorist attacks. Keep up the good work.

(i wouldnt normally get to that level, but you push, and i push back)

I really don't like you. I've never met you and probably never will, but your arguments and the 'facts' you pull up do nothing to sway anyone's opinion.

And let me just say I'm no fan of the government, but with that being said I could never imagine how the government would pull this off or the reasons for it. And I've looked at the conspiracy theories and they don't add up at all. And the people who spew them are uneducated college kids who think they are too cool for the room and know it all after one Poly-Sci class.

I won't personally attack you, other than saying your ignorance disgusts me.

[The Jays]

Seriously, this 9/11 bullshit pisses me the fuck off. I hate the dumbasses in this country who manage to still graduate from college and somehow believe that the US government would do this.

What THE FUCK would it have all been for? Why THE FUCK would they go so fucking far to kill so many people, and do it in such an obscene way, for what?? To go to wars that we haven't been winning? So that people would make a shitload of money? Last I checked, oil was down near 35 bucks a barrel, and the Dow is at 1998 levels, and we still have no wars won. Also, we've also managed to discredit the Republican party so much that we went so far as to vote a Democrat in office and into majorities in both Houses rather than keep the Republicans in power. I really don't see who has benefited from this elaborate evil scheme.


And from where are you getting this evidence? Who is the source of all these pieces of evidence? The government?

Yeah, they are reaaaaaaal trustworthy bunch. They NEVER lie.

Read this link, which is not from the government, but from Popular Mechanics, and they give a wonderful explanation why the WTC collapsed. (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html)

I havent been shown any evidence that a "plane" hit the Pentagon.


You know, the intelligence hub of the USA, but not ONE security camera clearly showing a plane impacting?


No evidence, indeed.

Do ya? Do ya REALLY know people who were there that day?

So they saw the plane? i mean they just happened to be outside smoking a cigarette or parking there car, or staring out their window hoping for something to just kinda shake up thier lives and BOOM.....in the (how many seconds) span of time, they saw the plane.

I mean, they told you that they saw the plane ,right? They must have. Otherwise your statement would really kinda make you look like a loudmouth retard.

I dont see how seeking the truth does a diservice to anyone, let alone the dead, whose deaths are what drives us to find out the truth.

you seem emotional.....cool your jets, honey.

Check out this link if you want video of the plane striking the Pentagon. True, the frame rate is too low to see the entire plane, but if you look, you can see an object shaped like the nose of a plane as it approaches just before the explosion. (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5658198482624505213&ei=ggmWSYnFGIrEqQK10dTGCw&q=video+of+plane+hitting+pentagon&hl=en)

SCIENCE held that the world was flat.

SCIENCE held that you could turn any metal into gold

SCIENCE held that the Sun revolved around the Earth.

So much for Science.

As for logic, well, an ignorant bigot (not calling you an ignorant bigot, btw) would think that if a house was broken into, and a black man was seen on the street, the black man must have been the culprit. Its only logical.

The thing with logic is that it is based on premises. If the premise is faulty, so is the logical conclusion.


Hows that for intelligence?

Holy shit, you just debunked science! :surrender:The US government must have taken down the Twin Towers, because you have proven that physics does not exist! And if physics doesn't exist, then only the US government exists, and therefore, they must have taken down the towers with magic!

[EliSnow]

Ha!

Oh eli, ur silly.

In this case, just a little bewildered. But I l've had three drinks so far, so maybe I'm both.

[dino_electropolis]

Fuck you, you apology means shit.

Wow, your gracious and classy sentiments really give me a sense of humility. It makes me re think my whole position on the topic. I mean, clearly, i should agree with anyone who is beyond accepting an apology (especially when that person wasn't even engaged in the discussion to begin with). I now know that there is no place for open-mindedness, maturity and forgiveness in debate.

Well done, sir!

[The Jays]

Oh yeah, and a fire in China not taking down a building has no relation to the WTC 7 coming down. 7 suffered from massive structural damage due to TWO OF THE TALLEST FUCKING BUILDINGS IN THE WORLD COLLAPSING NEXT DOOR, along with a fire that could not be controlled due to low water pressure in the sprinklers because water lines were severed BY THE THE TWO TALL FUCKING BUILDINGS COLLAPSING.

This is like saying the fire I started on the beach didn't burn down my house therefore WTC 7 must've been destroyed by the government.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

I really don't like you. I've never met you and probably never will, but your arguments and the 'facts' you pull up do nothing to sway anyone's opinion.

And let me just say I'm no fan of the government, but with that being said I could never imagine how the government would pull this off or the reasons for it. And I've looked at the conspiracy theories and they don't add up at all. And the people who spew them are uneducated college kids who think they are too cool for the room and know it all after one Poly-Sci class.

I won't personally attack you, other than saying your ignorance disgusts me.

I really like you. :wub:

Though I found the term 'uneducated college kids' ironic. I'd just call 'em dumb.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

Wow, your gracious and classy sentiments really give me a sense of humility. It makes me re think my whole position on the topic. I mean, clearly, i should agree with anyone who is beyond accepting an apology (especially when that person wasn't even engaged in the discussion to begin with). I now know that there is no place for open-mindedness, maturity and forgiveness in debate.

Well done, sir!

Perhaps you should know which battles to choose before you wander around wondering why people just bit your face off.

[keithy_19]

Wow, your gracious and classy sentiments really give me a sense of humility. It makes me re think my whole position on the topic. I mean, clearly, i should agree with anyone who is beyond accepting an apology (especially when that person wasn't even engaged in the discussion to begin with). I now know that there is no place for open-mindedness, maturity and forgiveness in debate.

Well done, sir!

He's not forgiving you because you made a personal attack against someone who knows people who were harmed on 9/11. I wouldn't forgive you either.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

In this case, just a little bewildered. But I l've had three drinks so far, so maybe I'm both.

Big Ass Lawyer bar night? I say yay.

edit: Just noticed the acronym would be BAL. beavis and butthead moment.

[keithy_19]

I really like you. :wub:

Though I found the term 'uneducated college kids' ironic. I'd just call 'em dumb.

Ya know, you have some kids who go to college and because they do well in intermediate algebra they think their shit don't smell. You can get a degree without being well educated.

[EliSnow]

Big Ass Lawyer bar night? I say yay.

edit: Just noticed the acronym would be BAL. beavis and butthead moment.

Friday night trying to get the kids to bed night. I could use a big ass lawyer night.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

Ya know, you have some kids who go to college and because they do well in intermediate algebra they think their shit don't smell. You can get a degree without being well educated.

Dumb has fewer syllables and hurts their feelings more, so that's what I use. And I know what you mean. They infest social gatherings like cockroaches.

[Freakshow]

Snopes (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.asp)

Case closed.

[dino_electropolis]

He's not forgiving you because you made a personal attack against someone who knows people who were harmed on 9/11. I wouldn't forgive you either.

Uhm yeah, he attacked first, but i'm over it.

And i know SEVERAL people who died that day, so save me the attempted guilt trip. Perhaps its because of that fact that i am as impassioned about this as i am. Perhaps its because i was on the path train into WTC that mornin when the shit went down. Maybe the fact that i watched them come down with my own eyes has something do with it? Or maybe being 7 blocks away, smelling the stench of burning fuel and god know what else, listening to sirens as they pulled remains out for the next few months may affect my opinion.

Everyone throws around the term "ignorance" around here like your all in the know. But your not.

I'll say that again. Your not.
Your just as impassioned about your opinion as i am of mine, but i am the bad guy.

[EliSnow]

Do we need Liz in here to explain word usage again?

[keithy_19]

I'll say that again. Your not.
Your just as impassioned about your opinion as i am of mine, but i am the bad guy.

You're not the bad guy. You're just ignorant.My dad works five block from the Trade Centers. He used to go every tuesday to a Bible study with people on the floor the plain was hit.

I've done the research, and it doesn't add up. At some point we have to accept that there are truly evil people who do evil things in this world.

[Serpico1103]

i am the bad guy.

Correct.
The government could have done more to prevent 9/11. Properly using the security that is in place, following proper procedure, and recognizing the threat that terrorism posed.
The government could have handled post 9/11 better. Finishing Afghanistan before starting another war.
But, the government was not involved in 9/11.

[Melk]

It's the same self-defeating argument that ignores reality...a fire like that is missing some key things that the 9/11 fires had...namely massive amounts of burning jet fuel and a huge crash that damaged the structure and knocked the fireproofing off of the support structures at the points of impact.
The Trade Center Towers were also built during an era where New York City was operating heavily in the red. The builders cut many corners during the construction of the buildings.

I have heard from late 2001 news sources that Osama Bin Laden is an experienced engineer. This is the primary reason his underlings targeted the Twin Towers on more than ones occasion. He knew it wouldn't take a great deal to ruin the structural foundation of the towers.

[The Jays]

Uhm yeah, he attacked first, but i'm over it.

And i know SEVERAL people who died that day, so save me the attempted guilt trip. Perhaps its because of that fact that i am as impassioned about this as i am. Perhaps its because i was on the path train into WTC that mornin when the shit went down. Maybe the fact that i watched them come down with my own eyes has something do with it? Or maybe being 7 blocks away, smelling the stench of burning fuel and god know what else, listening to sirens as they pulled remains out for the next few months may affect my opinion.

Everyone throws around the term "ignorance" around here like your all in the know. But your not.

I'll say that again. Your not.
Your just as impassioned about your opinion as i am of mine, but i am the bad guy.


You do not have an opinion. You have a poorly stated matter of fact, which is completely untrue, and yet you want to believe it true sooooo bad. You are ignorant. You have ignored the facts of that day.

You're the bad guy because you insulted and offended a person who was directly affected by the events of that day.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

Jesus fucking Christ (sorry Keithy's dad). Stop waving the "I had more people I know die on 9-11 than you" flags. Quit with the "I suffered harder because I was closer" buttons you keep pinning to your lapel as well. It's not a fucking accomplishment.

Shining a light on your 9-11 stats proves nothing about your character beyond the fact that you think you're special by association with a horrid event. It also has nothing to do with the argument other than to exploit a tragedy into somehow helping your image out in a debate. It's no coincidence alot of people on here who have suffered are not highlighting it as a talking point on some messageboard.

Guess what? If you're from this area, chances are strong you were affected by the event in some indirect/direct way. It doesn't make you infallible. Or off-limits to disagreement.

So talking about how so and so number of whatevers was touched by something just means less than dick to me or anyone else. Just stop it already.

[The Jays]

The Trade Center Towers were also built during an era where New York City was operating heavily in the red. The builders cut many corners during the construction of the buildings.

I have heard from late 2001 news sources that Osama Bin Laden is an experienced engineer. This is the primary reason his underlings targeted the Twin Towers on more than ones occasion. He knew it wouldn't take a great deal to ruin the structural foundation of the towers.

1) New York City's budget would have no affect on the budget for the World Trade Center, and even if it did, structural integrity would not be sacrificed by engineers because of budget reasons, because if shit was to happen to that building because of corners they cut, they would risk losing their licenses.

2) Bin Laden's alleged education in civil engineering is not proven, and he has no experence in the profession of engineering anyway. Besides that, if that was true, he should have known that a car bomb would not take down the buildings during his first attempt, and that a plane full of fuel taking out the external structural supports and then burning at temperatures high enough for steel to deform should be able to take down a building.

[dino_electropolis]

Jesus fucking Christ (sorry Keithy's dad). Stop waving the "I had more people I know die on 9-11 than you" flags. Quit with the "I suffered harder because I was closer" buttons you keep pinning to your lapel as well. It's not a fucking accomplishment.

Shining a light on your 9-11 stats proves nothing about your character beyond the fact that you think you're special by association with a horrid event. It also has nothing to do with the argument other than to exploit a tragedy into somehow helping your image out in a debate. It's no coincidence alot of people on here who have suffered are not highlighting it as a talking point on some messageboard.

Guess what? If you're from this area, chances are strong you were affected by the event in some indirect/direct way. It doesn't make you infallible. Or off-limits to disagreement.

So talking about how so and so number of whatevers was touched by something just means less than dick to me or anyone else. Just stop it already.

Your something else. Your reflexive, reactionary post tells me about your impulsive character. I merely pointed out my "stats" because i was being derided for apparantely being insensitive about someone else who knew someone who was harmed on that day. I thought it relevant to the discussion that i know that pain personally. I didnt bring it up, it was brought up by someone else.
So i dont wear it as a badge of honor or anything like that.

And sweetie, i tried stopping this a while ago (with my apology) so i am not the one carrying it on.

You should really take the time to read whats being written and think before you speak.

[Serpico1103]

Laughable.
Perhaps you, the all knowing Mojo Pin know that what you are looking at is from a piece of a plane....looks like twisted metal to me.
watch this, and educate yourself.
http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm
Oh, the blissful life of the ignorant!

HOLY FUCK. I just watched that piece of shit. Again, BAD SOUNDTRACK=BAD FACTS.
All those "quotes" from people saying it sounded like a missile and not an airplane. Oh please, can they enlighten on what the difference is and how many missiles and airplanes they have heard at such low altitude up close?
All those plane "crashes" they showed with wreckage were landings, not the plane slamming nose first into a solid structure. Understand the difference? Those planes were trying to land, were leveling off, were slowing down, the plane that hit the pentagon was not doing that. No comparison. It is childish and a complete twisting of the "facts."

[Freakshow]

I never realized how truly retarded some posters here are till now.
i know people that were at the pentagon that day and i tend to believe them rather then some hack website with scary music. You do the dead a diservice with your idiotic talk

Actually, in this post KO never said he knew people that died. He said he knew people, and they told him a big-ass plane hit the building. Other people twisted it around and talked about knowing people that died in the towers, which had nothing to do with his original post.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

Your something else. Your reflexive, reactionary post tells me about your impulsive character. I merely pointed out my "stats" because i was being derided for apparantely being insensitive about someone else who knew someone who was harmed on that day. I thought it relevant to the discussion that i know that pain personally. I didnt bring it up, it was brought up by someone else.
So i dont wear it as a badge of honor or anything like that.

And sweetie, i tried stopping this a while ago (with my apology) so i am not the one carrying it on.

You should really take the time to read whats being written and think before you speak.

Trust me, I re-read your post and edited my original post a la Mikeyboy style so I wouldn't hurt your feelings too much. I also re-read the post you cite and he didn't accuse you of not having experiences, he's accusing you (accurately) of talking massive insulting shit to people who were directly impacted by the event (which you did). He did not ask for you to polish your laurels about why you're legitimate through other people's suffering.

Here's a hint. Everyone feels pain. You're not special.

As for the argument that you attack people and talk out your ass because "he did it first, Teech!" - what are you, 11 years old? That's not a defense. It's nothing. It means zip, nada, nil. I accepted Franklyn's opinion on 9-11 because he stated his case in a succint, non-insulting manner and I'm bashing you because you're in love with your own fantasy.

If being a reflexive reactionary means "not a narcissistic cunt", then by all means, I'm a reflexive reactionary.

[dino_electropolis]

Trust me, I re-read your post and edited my original post a la Mikeyboy style so I wouldn't hurt your feelings too much. I also re-read the post you cite and he didn't accuse you of not having experiences, he's accusing you (accurately) of talking massive insulting shit to people who were directly impacted by the event (which you did). He did not ask for you to polish your laurels about why you're legitimate through other people's suffering.

Here's a hint. Everyone feels pain. You're not special.

As for the argument that you attack people and talk out your ass because "he did it first, Teech!" - what are you, 11 years old? That's not a defense. It's nothing. It means zip, nada, nil. I accepted Franklyn's opinion on 9-11 because he stated his case in a succint, non-insulting manner and I'm bashing you because you're in love with your own fantasy.

If being a reflexive reactionary means "not a narcissistic cunt", then by all means, I'm a reflexive reactionary.

Your my fantasy.

[Freakshow]

Your my fantasy.

you're mr grammar. whee this is run.

[underdog]

Your my fantasy.

I like how you think you know what really happened on 9/11, yet you DON'T KNOW THE FUCKING DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOU'RE AND YOUR.

[TheMojoPin]

I like how you think you know what really happened on 9/11, yet you DON'T KNOW THE FUCKING DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOU'RE AND YOUR.

Maybe he meant Yor is his fantasy.

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk92/indridcold_0/YOR53.jpg

[Knowledged_one]

Im gonna say a few more things here:
1. We all agree that 4 planes were hijacked right. Right. 2 hit in ny and 1 hit in the field in pa everyone agree. So we are down to one plane - if as being said by some it didnt hit the pentagon what happened to it shot down? Then another missile was shot into the pentagon? So what happened to the plane wreckage? Also my work with the dod was a flight test engineer on the f-18 e/f program at pax river naval base where i got to know quite a few pilots and dealt with them on a daily basis and i feel confident in saying that with the threat of a loss of significant life would not like it but would shoot down a plane however i can say with the same certainty they would never fire on the pentagon and kill inocents conspiracy or not. In addition loading live missiles is not some 10 minute process when we did live fire it took 45 minutes just to load two aim-9, and planes do not just sit around with live weapons at least from my experience so the timeline just isnt feasible to validate that kind of theory. Now of course i didnt learn this in some poly sci course but with degrees in aerospace and mechanical engineering and hands on experience with a/c i think i know what im talking about

[Freakshow]

yor seems to have bigger bosoms than his wench.

[Syd]

It's the same self-defeating argument that ignores reality...a fire like that is missing some key things that the 9/11 fires had...namely massive amounts of burning jet fuel and a huge crash that damaged the structure and knocked the fireproofing off of the support structures at the points of impact.

WTC7 was hit by large debris from the crashes and the collapsing towers. The fires alone did not bring that building down.

"Truthers" are REALLY dumb at this point.

Wrong, actually. The thing that brought down the WTC towers were the carpet, paper, furniture etc in the building itself. The jet fuel really didn't play too large of a part except for helping the fire start/spread. The Beijing fire had little in the way of furnishings so it kept the fire a lot "cooler". Also, the conditions were extremely favorable for a fire on 9/11 and there was a massive amount of air to feed the fire.

WTC7 was brought down by debris and fire itself, the building itself had extremely heavy equipment in it and it was structurally stressed to begin with. It didn't need much to bring it down.

Either way, if you think 9/11 was anything other than what actually happened you really have so little understanding of engineering and/or demolition. The way they bring down buildings is by boring into the concrete columns or steel beam columns in a building and laying charges. It's an extremely tedious process that requires months and months, even for a small building. It would take years and years to prepare the building to be demolished while having no one noticing that they've been drilling into things all over the place and laying primer cord for it.

Beyond that, a lot of stuff that in these crackpot videos is based on the fact that people have no idea how much potential energy is involved with a skyscraper. They're several hundred thousand tons a piece -- when that energy is released because something in the building buckles, it will cause some crazy shit to happen. The supposed scorched steel from thermite and lord knows what else is from that. The fact that people picked up the WTCs falling on seismic detection equipment should clue you in on the amount of energy released.

Really, it's a fun sci-fi theory and all but if you want to read something that has been a bit more meticulously written and prepared the Montauk Project is a better conspiracy theory. At least there's something cool about it.

[TheMojoPin]

Wrong, actually. The thing that brought down the WTC towers were the carpet, paper, furniture etc in the building itself. The jet fuel really didn't play too large of a part except for helping the fire start/spread. The Beijing fire had little in the way of furnishings so it kept the fire a lot "cooler". Also, the conditions were extremely favorable for a fire on 9/11 and there was a massive amount of air to feed the fire.

Well, yeah. I just pointing out the huge difference in circumstances. The Truthers will always point to other big building fires as "proof," like a fully fueled aircraft slamming into a building is the same thing as a "typical" building fire.

In the end, I think we're talking about the same thing. Thanks for elaborating and summing up those points, because Lord knows I couldn't have.

[Knowledged_one]

Or dulce base another good one

[Knowledged_one]

Well, yeah. I just pointing out the huge difference in circumstances. The Truthers will always point to other big building fires as "proof," like a fully fueled aircraft slamming into a building is the same thing as a "typical" building fire.

not to mention what the impact would do to the harmonics of a building that big since they are built to have some sway

[high fly]

[QUOTE=topless_mike;2123002]well, personally, not to start shit, but i think our own govt hired or some how collaborated in getting 9/11 done. not saying W or anybody specific, could have even been a rogue military cell within the higher brass. truth is we'll never know, really. and we'll never really know where that flight 93 was heading for real.

just my thoughts. i dont have any evidence to support it. nor, do i have to.

[QUOTE]


There is ample evidence that Flight 93 was headed toward the Capitol.
It had been a target for a long time in their planning, as was the White House.


If the government was in on the 9/11 plot, they could've busted it up at the last moment and there still would've been plenty of outrage, especially if they had fuzz in mufti aboard who shot the bastards when they made their move...

[high fly]

Wrong, actually. The thing that brought down the WTC towers were the carpet, paper, furniture etc in the building itself. The jet fuel really didn't play too large of a part except for helping the fire start/spread. The Beijing fire had little in the way of furnishings so it kept the fire a lot "cooler". Also, the conditions were extremely favorable for a fire on 9/11 and there was a massive amount of air to feed the fire.

WTC7 was brought down by debris and fire itself, the building itself had extremely heavy equipment in it and it was structurally stressed to begin with. It didn't need much to bring it down.

Either way, if you think 9/11 was anything other than what actually happened you really have so little understanding of engineering and/or demolition. The way they bring down buildings is by boring into the concrete columns or steel beam columns in a building and laying charges. It's an extremely tedious process that requires months and months, even for a small building. It would take years and years to prepare the building to be demolished while having no one noticing that they've been drilling into things all over the place and laying primer cord for it.

Beyond that, a lot of stuff that in these crackpot videos is based on the fact that people have no idea how much potential energy is involved with a skyscraper. They're several hundred thousand tons a piece -- when that energy is released because something in the building buckles, it will cause some crazy shit to happen. The supposed scorched steel from thermite and lord knows what else is from that. The fact that people picked up the WTCs falling on seismic detection equipment should clue you in on the amount of energy released.

Really, it's a fun sci-fi theory and all but if you want to read something that has been a bit more meticulously written and prepared the Montauk Project is a better conspiracy theory. At least there's something cool about it.


Indeed.
And the Truthers say it looks just like a controlled demolition when it does not.
All the big buildings I've seen brought down had charges placed around the base of the building.

The fires didn't have to melt those bigass steeel beams clear through, they just had to affect the temper of the bolts holding them together, and with the impact, stuff also got shook loose, transferring unequal loads where they were not planned to go.
Tiny weaknesses became magnified and grew because gravity works all the time.

[Knowledged_one]

Ronfez.net where conspiriacies go to die

[suggums]

Ronfez.net where conspiriacies go to die

that'd actually be forums.randi.org board. those motherfuckers are ruthless. next, mojo is gonna tell us he thinks oswald acted alone in killing kennedy :wink:

[Melk]

Correct.
The government could have done more to prevent 9/11. Properly using the security that is in place, following proper procedure, and recognizing the threat that terrorism posed.
The government could have handled post 9/11 better. Finishing Afghanistan before starting another war.
But, the government was not involved in 9/11.
I agree. I decided to watch the video after hearing speculation.
This video is such a false proof. The Beijing Hotel is an unfinished building being built in modern times. The World Trade Center 7 was a 25 plus year old building being used daily for many years built during an era where the building standards understood following the collapse were available for reference. Sure, China is a developing country, but why would they intentionally build a tower that was structurally inferior to tower 7? Even if they just followed the NIST's recommendations, the Beijing Hotel should have withstood a heck of a lot more stress than tower 7.

This video would be like showing the recent Hudson landing as some sort of proper terrorist prevention method. They are two unrelated situations with completely unrelated variables. There was a plane and New York, but the intentions of the pilots (or persons in control of the planes) were different.

Both videos have common elements they have a tower and a fire, but everything else is different.

[NewYorkDragons80]

http://www.septclues.com/PICTURES%20sept%20clues%20research/wtc7southwestcorner%20damage.jpg

That's the difference between WTC 7 and Beijing.

The problem with people who think WTC 7 (or any building on 9/11) was a planned demolition is that even if there was a conspiracy, its aims were accomplished with the plane crashes alone, and the implosions were not neccesary.

Also, keep in mind that Mojo is an unreliable source. He used to work for the MAAAAAAAAAAAAN, after all.

[NewYorkDragons80]

Ugh. Why is there so much bad rap music out there?

That song was really terrible.

THAT's where's Snow went

[Syd]

Indeed.
And the Truthers say it looks just like a controlled demolition when it does not.
All the big buildings I've seen brought down had charges placed around the base of the building.

The fires didn't have to melt those bigass steeel beams clear through, they just had to affect the temper of the bolts holding them together, and with the impact, stuff also got shook loose, transferring unequal loads where they were not planned to go.
Tiny weaknesses became magnified and grew because gravity works all the time.

Hell, even if the connections were to fail the heat alone would cause the steel to expand beyond any normal expansion the design had accounted for.

[sailor]

the only thing worse than chicago pizza is a chicago dog.

[lleeder]

or a chicago gotham

[TheMojoPin]

Also, keep in mind that Mojo is an unreliable source. He used to work for the MAAAAAAAAAAAAN, after all.

Shut up, shut up, SHUT UP.

[TheMojoPin]

the only thing worse than chicago pizza is a chicago dog.

Get back in the corner, creep.

[joeyballsack]

OK..I think we can all agree on the following points.

1. The Chinese, not only are better at winning Olympic medals, they are also better at making buildings.

2. Only an American hating terrorist would eat sliced tomatoes on a hot dog.

[TheMojoPin]

2. Only an American hating terrorist would eat sliced tomatoes on a hot dog.

Have you actually tried it?

[joeyballsack]

No, but I dont have to eat a dog turd to know its a bad idea.

The only tomato that should be on a hot dog comes in the form of ketchup.

Seriously though, I am going out to Chicago next month, so maybe I will give it a shot. Where should I try since that place is closed ?

[TheMojoPin]

No, but I dont have to eat a dog turd to know its a bad idea.

The only tomato that should be on a hot dog comes in the form of ketchup.

Seriously though, I am going out to Chicago next month, so maybe I will give it a shot. Where should I try since that place is closed ?

It's pretty hard to find a place with bad dogs here. You're basically safe going in anywhere that's not a chain that sells them.

Personally, I'm not a fan of tomatos, but it's surprisingly good on the dogs, especially if you also get onions on it. And they're not on there automatically. You'd have to ask for everything on it or "Chicago style" or whatever to get that, otherwise the default is just a hot dog.

[Melk]

It's pretty hard to find a place with bad dogs here. You're basically safe going in anywhere that's not a chain that sells them.

Personally, I'm not a fan of tomatos, but it's surprisingly good on the dogs, especially if you also get onions on it. And they're not on there automatically. You'd have to ask for everything on it or "Chicago style" or whatever to get that, otherwise the default is just a hot dog.
There is a reason Nathan's failed outside of New York and Portillo's is experiencing strong but small expansion. Chicago dogs rock.

[sr71blackbird]

I didnt realize you and Mojopin were dating, but i find it sweet in light of the holiday tomorrow.


My point is that some people will believe what they will believe, despite what others may tell them which undermines their beliefs.


I didnt say anyone here was the equivalent of a holocause denier, i was just making a point that, well, read my previous statement.

Of course, Mojo, being the douche that he is, takes it upon himself to equate "truthers" (whatever that means) to holocaust deniers.

Class act, that Mojo.

How is Mojo a douche for point out in a dignified way how through the evidence it shows clearly to anyone with an open mind how there is no possibility of what hit the Pentagon is anything other an an Boeing 757? Then you say you dont like science graph..
So, you are closed minded about what you see. A closed mind will never accept anything other than what it initially sees, because you have a belief about an event based upon your own prejudices. If you see any of the other times Mojo has discussed and demonstrated popular conspiracy theories (see the Kennedy assassination thread (http://66.29.16.0/forums/showthread.php?t=32257)), you will se that he is extremely well read and can argue his point flawlessly and without insulting the other person.

[TheMojoPin]

God, I miss that thread.

And Waddles.

WHY DIDN'T HE STAY?!?

[sailor]

It's pretty hard to find a place with bad dogs here. You're basically safe going in anywhere that's not a chain that sells them.

Personally, I'm not a fan of tomatos, but it's surprisingly good on the dogs, especially if you also get onions on it. And they're not on there automatically. You'd have to ask for everything on it or "Chicago style" or whatever to get that, otherwise the default is just a hot dog.

why not just get it with some nice cooked vidalia onions in sauce like a gentleman?

[suggums]

mojo have you been to poochies in skokie? definitely check it out, it was my dads old haunt growing up there and the only dog place around chicago ive been to in recent visits. their sositches are excellent as well

http://www.roadfood.com/Reviews/Overview.aspx?RefID=103

http://www.roadfood.com/photos/mini_2923.jpg

[TheMojoPin]

mojo have you been to poochies in skokie? definitely check it out, it was my dads old haunt growing up there and the only dog place around chicago ive been to in recent visits. their sositches are excellent as well

http://www.roadfood.com/Reviews/Overview.aspx?RefID=103

http://www.roadfood.com/photos/mini_2923.jpg

Oh my God, Poochie's is fucking amazing. I haven't been there in like a decade, I need to go back ASAP.

Now, the tomatos I will defend, but the pickle thing is nuts.

"Chicago-style hot dogs" are like gumbo...there's no one way they're done.

[high fly]

HOLY FUCK. I just watched that piece of shit. Again, BAD SOUNDTRACK=BAD FACTS.
All those "quotes" from people saying it sounded like a missile and not an airplane. Oh please, can they enlighten on what the difference is and how many missiles and airplanes they have heard at such low altitude up close?
All those plane "crashes" they showed with wreckage were landings, not the plane slamming nose first into a solid structure. Understand the difference? Those planes were trying to land, were leveling off, were slowing down, the plane that hit the pentagon was not doing that. No comparison. It is childish and a complete twisting of the "facts."


I watched it too, what a bunch of nonsense!
I knew two people at the Pentagon that day. One's office was very close to the impact point.
Both saw the plane wreckage and described it to me.
I also know someone at the Arlington County Volunteer Fire Department who responded and was there all week.
She saw the plane wreckage and pointed out it was trucked out of there soon afterward.
I met others in that fire department who were there and saw it.
They were quite pissed about this bogus story.

I have heard Alex Jones interviewed several times and he apparently has never talked to the firefighters who were there.

[TheMojoPin]

Apparently the missile actually used to attack the Pentagon somehow sprayed jet fuel everywhere. How else to acocunt for all the people there who remarked about the smell of all the burning fuel, maaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnn?!?!

[high fly]

Drop tanks.

[NewYorkDragons80]

Why did the Freemason-supported Obama administration feel the need to silence yet another critic? (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2009/02/13/2009-02-13_flight_3407_tragedy_silences_beverly_eck.html)

Seriously, we're about 6 months from hearing how this crash was designed to silence Beverly Eckert

[ScottFromGA]

Well, some people deny the holocaust happened as well, so..... i guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.....lingyere lowngerie

wait.....your not "playing the bit guy"?


I honestly thought you was playing around, now your just crazy dude! I was joining the side of the conspiracy groups at one time, but the evidence just adds up....it was planes that hit the buildings.


i really added nothing to this whole debate.

[rick9669]

i work a local govt. company and have friends that work for somewhat larger departments..one thing that is true is that NOBODY working for the govt. can keep a secret let alone a conspiracy of this size....anybody that has an interoffice fling is a topic of conversation....and one would have to agree if 9/11 was a huge conspiracy at least 1 of the actors drinks....wheres the "hey guess what i did ?" guy...:wallbash:

[styckx]

This conspiracy has more legs then that original video

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/saHs6J0OXVI&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/saHs6J0OXVI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[~Katja~]

This conspiracy has more legs then that original video

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/saHs6J0OXVI&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/saHs6J0OXVI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

thanks, now I have been watching earth and planet growth conspiracies from the related videos all morning.

[TheMojoPin]

This conspiracy has more legs then that original video

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/saHs6J0OXVI&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/saHs6J0OXVI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

You have no idea how high this goes!

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/55nQ00gSKC0&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/55nQ00gSKC0&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[high fly]

The amazing thing is that Nostradamus predicted it all!
He even named Mohammed Atta as the ringleader and left a sketch of his portrait!!

[sailor]

nostredame predicted nothing.

[IMSlacker]

The only tomato that should be on a hot dog comes in the form of ketchup.

Ketchup on a hot dog? Are you six?

[high fly]

Gotta be a Republican...

[SP1!]

Laughable.

Perhaps you, the all knowing Mojo Pin know that what you are looking at is from a piece of a plane....looks like twisted metal to me.

watch this, and educate yourself.

http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm

Oh, the blissful life of the ignorant!
What I love about that is the fact that the jet wash bullshit has already been disproven, hell mythbusters did an episode and they couldnt get a car to flip with it right beside it yet they keep talking that the jetwash would was cars off a highway. Or how the truthers talk about how the building collapsed for just the fires when if you see the pics from the reverse angles you see a huge fucking chunk missing out of the building.

Ah, so you think the government, namely the Bush administration, are capable of pulling of a gigantic conspiracy of supervillan-esque proportions...and getting away with it.

The government weren't the only investigators in regards to 9/11. Thousands of independent engineers, investigators, experts and forensic analysts were brought in to figure out what happened. You honestly believe all of those people willingly went along with the conspiracy or were duped? THOUSANDS of people have to be complicit in this thing for it be an "inside job."
Thats whats so great, people want to point to how inept this administration is but supposedly in these peoples minds they pulled off the greatest hoax since the Kennedy assassination.

Well, you sort of do have to. I mean, if you're going to say you believe in something, it's not like you're off the hook in justifying it. I could say I believe that the sun is purple and whales can fly and that it's just my opinion, but people are going to to wonder how the hell I reached that conclusion.

Why do you have that opinion? What is it based on?
Conspiracy fears have been around for a long time, Seven Days In May (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058576/) covered this back in the 60s as did the Manchurian Candidate (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056218/), incidentally both of the original movies are great and the remakes are complete shit.

[underdog]

What I love about that is the fact that the jet wash bullshit has already been disproven, hell mythbusters did an episode and they couldnt get a car to flip with it right beside it yet they keep talking that the jetwash would was cars off a highway. Or how the truthers talk about how the building collapsed for just the fires when if you see the pics from the reverse angles you see a huge fucking chunk missing out of the building.

The Mythbusters confirmed that myth about jet wash.

[TheMojoPin]

Thats whats so great, people want to point to how inept this administration is but supposedly in these peoples minds they pulled off the greatest hoax since the Kennedy assassination.

You get weird politics with the Kennedy assassination, too. Since he's been unjustly lionized as a great Democratic president, it's no coincidence that most of the conspiracy theorists tend to sway Left. It's very telling that so many of these conspiracies desperately try to swerve away from the assassin, Oswald, who was an extreme "Leftist," towards conspiracies that invariably pin everything on "extreme Right Wing" elements.

Conspiracy fears have been around for a long time, Seven Days In May (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058576/) covered this back in the 60s as did the Manchurian Candidate (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056218/), incidentally both of the original movies are great and the remakes are complete shit.

Oh, definitely. The psychology behind the belief in conspiracy is fascinating. People want "balance" in their tragedy. The Holocaust is something that "makes sense" to people...greatest evil perpetrated by the greatest historical villains. There were a lot of them, they had scary uniforms and epic "production values," basically went to war with the world...it balances out. Kennedy and Camelot has come to represent the last bastion of "America's Innocence." It doesn't stack up that the gian myth of Kennedy was killed by a single loser with a cheap rifle. 9/11 being pulled off by 19 foreign guys with box cutters orchestrated by some dudes living in caves just doesn't balance out in the grand scheme of things for a lot of people.

[SP1!]

The Mythbusters confirmed that myth about jet wash.

I remembered it differently but looked it back up and found out they revisited that episode but used a 757(which is a larger plane) and towed the car slowly behind the jets, you have to remember that this was a plane that was going 500+ miles an hour so it wouldnt have had time to blow cars off a freeway 20ft below it, which is what conspiracy people think would have happened.

And mojo I have never understood the fascination with kennedy, he wasnt in office that long and didnt do a whole lot while he was in there, but you are right, oswald was extreme left and somehow its always right wing nutjobs that get blamed for it. I blame the X-Files.

9/11 makes sense to me because people had been trained not to fight back during hijackings, since quite a few end up just landing some where else and most passengers and crew getting out ok. Very few people could have dreamed up something like this as a reality and I have a hard time believe bush and co. could pull something like this off, but then again Im a realist.

[keithy_19]

9/11 makes sense to me because people had been trained not to fight back during hijackings, since quite a few end up just landing some where else and most passengers and crew getting out ok. Very few people could have dreamed up something like this as a reality and I have a hard time believe bush and co. could pull something like this off, but then again Im a realist.

Hearing people actually believe in the conspiracy theory of 9/11 bums me out. How people, who I like to believe have enough common sense to decipher between cold hard facts and plain, inane thinking...well, makes me want to go lay in traffic.

I always knew people were dumb, but wow, this takes the cake on the stupidity meter.

[TheMojoPin]

9/11 makes sense to me because people had been trained not to fight back during hijackings, since quite a few end up just landing some where else and most passengers and crew getting out ok. Very few people could have dreamed up something like this as a reality and I have a hard time believe bush and co. could pull something like this off, but then again Im a realist.

When you examine the details, sure, but for a lot of people, the idea that a few guys (and you can't understate their national/racial/religious identities as part of this) killed 3000 people and brought down two huge identifying symbols of the busiest city in the world ("our city") and made everyone feel so angry and scared and sad and helpless...it just doesn't even out.

[high fly]

I believe that Alex Jones fella is big on the Area51 conspiracies, too...



Mojo, I gotta disagree with you on how good a president Kennedy was, but that's a topic for a separate thread...

[SP1!]

When you examine the details, sure, but for a lot of people, the idea that a few guys (and you can't understate their national/racial/religious identities as part of this) killed 3000 people and brought down two huge identifying symbols of the busiest city in the world ("our city") and made everyone feel so angry and scared and sad and helpless...it just doesn't even out.

Yeah I can see that, we as a people are trained to believe that those in charge know what they are doing and whats best.

You can bet the next time I flew, which was a couple weeks later on southwest, me and another guy were in the first row thinking we would stomp anyone trying to get in the cockpit. You can bet everyone was hyper sensitive on that flight.

[high fly]

Yeah I can see that, we as a people are trained to believe that those in charge know what they are doing and whats best.

You can bet the next time I flew, which was a couple weeks later on southwest, me and another guy were in the first row thinking we would stomp anyone trying to get in the cockpit. You can bet everyone was hyper sensitive on that flight.


People also think leaders and others can take the right decisions in split seconds and, say, get armed fighters in the air right away to intercept incoming hijacked airliners.
They think we got superspies like James Bond or Jack Bauer who can go in somewhere and kill 20 guys, defuse a nuke and bang a hottie before the next commercial break....

[SP1!]

People also think leaders and others can take the right decisions in split seconds and, say, get armed fighters in the air right away to intercept incoming hijacked airliners.
They think we got superspies like James Bond or Jack Bauer who can go in somewhere and kill 20 guys, defuse a nuke and bang a hottie before the next commercial break....

Anyone with half a brain knows thats not true in most places and it takes time to fuel and arm the jets, the ones I heard that were on intercepting courses for what was left were going to have to ram them and try to eject in time since there were no munitions on the jets.

[TheMojoPin]

So apparently the Buffalo plane crash has been tied in to the 9/11 conspiracy theories due to one of the passengers:

<object width="480" height="295"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/HFtJ-IxzQPk&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/HFtJ-IxzQPk&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="295"></embed></object>

Now we've got the list of non-suspicious "suspicious deaths" going.

[TheMojoPin]

And backtracking to the whole Pentagon thing, I found some more photos of the cleanup with clearly obvious plane debris:

http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/pentagon1.jpg

http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/pentagon1a.jpg

Inlcuding one were you can see part of the plane's logo:

http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/pentagon1b.jpg

[midwestjeff]

So apparently the Buffalo plane crash has been tied in to the 9/11 conspiacy theories due to one of the passengers:


She was trying to get the real story out there.

And she would have gotten away with it too,
if it weren't for those meddling illuminati.

[high fly]

Anyone with half a brain knows thats not true in most places and it takes time to fuel and arm the jets, the ones I heard that were on intercepting courses for what was left were going to have to ram them and try to eject in time since there were no munitions on the jets.


D.C. Air National Guard couldn't do jack, either.

[high fly]

And backtracking to the whole Pentagon thing, I found some more photos of the cleanup with clearly obvious plane debris:

http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/pentagon1.jpg

http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/pentagon1a.jpg

Inlcuding one were you can see part of the plane's logo:

http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/pentagon1b.jpg




Naw man, those are just illusions caused by swamp gas...

[CHUCKWAGONCOOK]

I have concrete evidence that Fez is a Alien. What ya got now? (http://www.thirdtierboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3660&page=16)

[Coach]

9/11 truthers piss me off.
I can accept the possibility that PERHAPS the plane in Pa. was shot down.
Acceptable lie IMO.
And the one omission of the Holocaust that pisses me off was that there were 3 million Catholics and 500,000 gypsies killed as well as Jews.

[Melrapuo]

O.J. did it.

[NewYorkDragons80]

So apparently the Buffalo plane crash has been tied in to the 9/11 conspiacy theories due to one of the passengers:

<object width="480" height="295"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/HFtJ-IxzQPk&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/HFtJ-IxzQPk&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="295"></embed></object>

Now we've got the list of non-suspicious "suspicious deaths" going.

Too late, my man (http://ronfez.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2124759#post2124759)

[NewYorkDragons80]

I have concrete evidence that Fez is a Alien. What ya got now? (http://www.thirdtierboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3660&page=16)

Where did you find that website?

[TheMojoPin]

And the one omission of the Holocaust that pisses me off was that there were 3 million Catholics and 500,000 gypsies killed as well as Jews.

Omission?

[Sinestro]

Don't forget Jehovah Witnesses too. They mentioned it at the Holocaust Museum in DC.

[EliSnow]

And mojo I have never understood the fascination with kennedy, he wasnt in office that long and didnt do a whole lot while he was in there, but you are right, oswald was extreme left and somehow its always right wing nutjobs that get blamed for it. I blame the X-Files.



I think that you would have had to live through the time to get the fascination. He is definitely one example of someone where the fascination isn't about what he did, necessarily, but rather what he, his family, and his "message" meant to people at that time. Part of it dealt with the growing emergence of television and the mass media. Part of it dealt with the message of "hope" that people were feeling, especially as the civil rights and other movements were ramping up.

Not sure whether the X-Files comment was a joke or not, but the Kennedy assasination was the conspiracy wet dream long before the X-Files came along.

[Coach]

Omission?
I left out "by people".

[Boogie in Va]

And backtracking to the whole Pentagon thing, I found some more photos of the cleanup with clearly obvious plane debris:

http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/pentagon1.jpg

http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/pentagon1a.jpg

Inlcuding one were you can see part of the plane's logo:

http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/pentagon1b.jpg


I find it hard to brainwash hundreds of people driving on 395 when the aircraft flew over. They all must have been called that morning and was told to close their eyes all at the same time.

[A.J.]

I find it hard to brainwash hundreds of people driving on 395 when the aircraft flew over. They all must have been called that morning and was told to close their eyes all at the same time.

Not to mention the employees at the Pentagon milling about outside in the smoking areas, shuttle bus stops and parking lots.

[TheMojoPin]

Not to mention the employees at the Pentagon milling about outside in the smoking areas, shuttle bus stops and parking lots.

Or all the streetlights that were sheered over by the plane's wings. I guess the "missile" went out of its way to knock all of those over, too.

[TheMojoPin]

One of the biggest things with the JFK assassination and 9/11 is that there were numerous coverups in the government because of those events...but they were to cover people's asses. If the president is murdered or terrorists attack the Pentagon and knock down the WTC and kill 3,000 people, that's pretty much the pinnacle of failure if you work for any kind of institution or agency charged with protecting this country and its leaders. Various people are going to be scrambling after such disasters to shift blame elsewhere and make it look like nothing was their fault to try and save their jobs.

[NewYorkDragons80]

And backtracking to the whole Pentagon thing, I found some more photos of the cleanup with clearly obvious plane debris:

http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/pentagon1.jpg

http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/pentagon1a.jpg

Inlcuding one were you can see part of the plane's logo:

http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/pentagon1b.jpg

Your photos of federal agents spreading debris are from Cracked. I hardly consider them a reliable news source, though in this case I will use them since they depict an organized effort to tamper with evidence.

Or all the streetlights that were sheered over by the plane's wings. I guess the "missile" went out of its way to knock all of those over, too.

Missiles, or "smart bombs" are designed to follow a programmed course. If the government wanted to mimic the behavior of a passenger jet with a missile, they could easily do it.

[high fly]

Your photos of federal agents spreading debris are from Cracked. I hardly consider them a reliable news source, though in this case I will use them since they depict an organized effort to tamper with evidence.



Missiles, or "smart bombs" are designed to follow a programmed course. If the government wanted to mimic the behavior of a passenger jet with a missile, they could easily do it.


Sure, they could put great big wings on one to knock down those light poles, and hey, why not do a remote control job on a regular airliner?
Of course then we have to account for the phone calls of the passengers as well as their whereabouts, but with enough LSD, that shouldn't be any problem to figure out....

[A.J.]

Missiles, or "smart bombs" are designed to follow a programmed course. If the government wanted to mimic the behavior of a passenger jet with a missile, they could easily do it.

Oh, so I guess that WASN'T burning jet fuel and flesh that I smelled around the Pentagon on 9/11.

[NewYorkDragons80]

Sure, they could put great big wings on one to knock down those light poles, and hey, why not do a remote control job on a regular airliner?
Of course then we have to account for the phone calls of the passengers as well as their whereabouts, but with enough LSD, that shouldn't be any problem to figure out....

Ninjas could stealthily take out lightpoles HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO. You think Big Brother and the police state couldn't cut down poles in 2001? You're so naive.

Oh, so I guess that WASN'T burning jet fuel and flesh that I smelled around the Pentagon on 9/11.

No, it WAS burning jet fuel. However, the missile carefully sprinkled it throughout Northern Virginia en route to the Pentagon.

[A.J.]

No, it WAS burning jet fuel. However, the missile carefully sprinkled it throughout Northern Virginia en route to the Pentagon.

That's some missile.

http://www.independentcritics.com/images/jfkSPLASH.jpg

[NewYorkDragons80]

That's some missile.

http://www.independentcritics.com/images/jfkSPLASH.jpg

I was gonna make up a place where the passengers of Flight 93 or Flight 77 would be, but that would've been unnecessarily insensitive just to keep a dopey bit going

[TheMojoPin]

Dammit. You had me convinced.

[high fly]

I was gonna make up a place where the passengers of Flight 93 or Flight 77 would be, but that would've been unnecessarily insensitive just to keep a dopey bit going

FEMA camps!

Or maybe they are chained together and mining uranium in Siberia or something...

[NewYorkDragons80]

Dammit. You had me convinced.

Did you do a google image search for those pics or was someone of your stature actually perusing "Cracked" on the World Wide Web?

[TheMojoPin]

Did you do a google image search for those pics or was someone of your stature actually perusing "Cracked" on the World Wide Web?

I was trying to find more articles on the Pentagon attack with different photos and got that in my search, though I'm not gonna front like I don't stop by Cracked every so often.

[NewYorkDragons80]

There's a guy on youtube who's doing an excellent job of debunking 911 "truthers" piece by piece. His channel can be found here (http://www.youtube.com/user/RKOwens4). I'm posting it because it's interesting and because his videos are only getting 3 stars because you know who is going there and giving him shitty ratings just because he has a different viewpoint. If they were interested in seeking the truth, they'd watch without a predisposed agenda. Anyway, enjoy and disperse to the masses.

[scottinnj]

No it doesn't

[keithy_19]

No it doesn't

Shhhhhh.

[made cummsies]

I would sincerely like to shit into the mouth of anyone who honestly believes the moronic conspiracy theories.