Bonds tested positive? The hell you say!

[SP1!]

Who really is surprised at this? (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3884416)

Court documents show Barry Bonds tested positive for three types of steroids, and his personal trainer once told his business manager in the San Francisco Giants' clubhouse how he injected the slugger with performance-enhancing drugs "all over the place."

Prosecutors plan to use those 2000-03 test results and other evidence, detailed in documents released Wednesday, at Bonds' trial next month to show he lied when he told a federal grand jury in December 2003 that he never knowingly used steroids.
Prosecutors: Bonds tested positive

Bonds' attorneys want that evidence suppressed, and U.S. District Judge Susan Illston is to hear arguments Thursday on what to allow jurors to hear.

Well no shit, what attorney wouldnt want that suppressed?

[Snoogans]

I would like to take this time to OFFICIALLY thank Barry Bonds for doing everything in his power to entertain me during his time in Major League Baseball. Thank you for risking your health to make me enjoy the games more. I will not forget

[TheMojoPin]

I would like to take this time to OFFICIALLY thank Barry Bonds for doing everything in his power to entertain me during his time in Major League Baseball. Thank you for risking your health to make me enjoy the games more. I will not forget

Amen.

Steroids rule.

[SP1!]

I would like to take this time to OFFICIALLY thank Barry Bonds for doing everything in his power to entertain me during his time in Major League Baseball. Thank you for risking your health to make me enjoy the games more. I will not forget

Im sure he will quote you when trying to get back in to baseball next year, that is if he stays out of jail.

[foodcourtdruide]

This is turning into a witch hunt.

[Snoogans]

a witch hunt if 75% of the people are witches and the government knew it and allowed it cause it was good for the country. Then people found out, acted upset, and they had to act like they were offended by the witches. SUCH a crock of shit

[midwestjeff]

Can McGwire have the home run king title back now?

I mean, at least he only used legal dietary supplements.

[Snoogans]

Can McGwire have the home run king title back now?

I mean, at least he only used legal dietary supplements.

yea right


but who cares. Even if he was on horse roids, why is it a big deal?

[SP1!]

yea right


but who cares. Even if he was on horse roids, why is it a big deal?

Mainly cause baseball fans hate the fact that people were taking this in the 90s, dont even bring up the 70s to them.

Being a baseball fan I can see their point of view but I think most of the records broken in the late 90s are tainted simply because of the MLBPA unwillingness to accept a deal with drug testing in the verbiage.

[Snoogans]

Mainly cause baseball fans hate the fact that people were taking this in the 90s, dont even bring up the 70s to them.

Being a baseball fan I can see their point of view but I think most of the records broken in the late 90s are tainted simply because of the MLBPA unwillingness to accept a deal with drug testing in the verbiage.

WHO GIVES A FUCK ABOUT RECORDS?????????

Why is everyone so fuckin caught up on the damn past. past past past. WHO GIVES A FUCK. No matter what, you can't ever compare those numbers together cause with or without roids, the game changes, the concepts change, in all sports. The equiptment changes. You can only judge guys against their peers. FUCK records.

Why cant we just watch a game to be fuckin entertained anymore. Why does it have to mean something that some guy who pitched every other game in 1911 cause he never threw any breaking pitches or over 60 MPH has more wins then a guy in 2008? Who fuckin cares? Was the game exciting, awesome. No it wasnt? That sucks. 1925 DOESNT MAKE A FUCKIN DIFFERENCE

[foodcourtdruide]

Mainly cause baseball fans hate the fact that people were taking this in the 90s, dont even bring up the 70s to them.

Being a baseball fan I can see their point of view but I think most of the records broken in the late 90s are tainted simply because of the MLBPA unwillingness to accept a deal with drug testing in the verbiage.

Honestly, do baseball fans really care? Most people I talk to just want to movde forward and fix this. It looks loke the ones that care are a vindictive media and prosecuters that want their names is the news.

[foodcourtdruide]

WHO GIVES A FUCK ABOUT RECORDS?????????

Why is everyone so fuckin caught up on the damn past. past past past. WHO GIVES A FUCK. No matter what, you can't ever compare those numbers together cause with or without roids, the game changes, the concepts change, in all sports. The equiptment changes. You can only judge guys against their peers. FUCK records.

Why cant we just watch a game to be fuckin entertained anymore. Why does it have to mean something that some guy who pitched every other game in 1911 cause he never threw any breaking pitches or over 60 MPH has more wins then a guy in 2008? Who fuckin cares? Was the game exciting, awesome. No it wasnt? That sucks. 1925 DOESNT MAKE A FUCKIN DIFFERENCE

Amen. Everytime I watch a game I have to see 100 graphics about insignificant shit being broken.

[midwestjeff]

WHO GIVES A FUCK ABOUT RECORDS?????????

Why is everyone so fuckin caught up on the damn past. past past past.

You know Snoogans, it's like a wise wise man once said, "I am not here to talk about the past.".

[Snoogans]

You know Snoogans, it's like a wise wise man once said, "I am not here to talk about the past.".

yea that guy was like 5'2 135.....I wonder who that was

[SP1!]

WHO GIVES A FUCK ABOUT RECORDS?????????

Why is everyone so fuckin caught up on the damn past. past past past. WHO GIVES A FUCK. No matter what, you can't ever compare those numbers together cause with or without roids, the game changes, the concepts change, in all sports. The equiptment changes. You can only judge guys against their peers. FUCK records.

Why cant we just watch a game to be fuckin entertained anymore. Why does it have to mean something that some guy who pitched every other game in 1911 cause he never threw any breaking pitches or over 60 MPH has more wins then a guy in 2008? Who fuckin cares? Was the game exciting, awesome. No it wasnt? That sucks. 1925 DOESNT MAKE A FUCKIN DIFFERENCE

Honestly, do baseball fans really care? Most people I talk to just want to movde forward and fix this. It looks loke the ones that care are a vindictive media and prosecuters that want their names is the news.
Yes, baseball fans do care.

Its the guys in the stands that are lugging around score cards that get pissy about this and hold their old records as being sacred.

Entertained is one thing but bonds was hated so hes going to get raked over the coals, this also proves that if anything you never lie to the feds, just take the 5th like mcguire did.

[TheMojoPin]

Baseball fans hated the power-era?

Yeah, right. That sure wasn't the case at the time. Steroids saved baseball.

Much more than the crackdown on steroids, the crackdown on amphetamines has seriously damaged the game. These guys need to get back on the speed ASAP.

[Snoogans]

and they been taking all kinds of shit, anything they could figure out since the beginning of time. All these fucks are dirty in some way. Who gives a shit. They arent fuckin heroes, they are usually just normal scumbags who could hit

[foodcourtdruide]

and they been taking all kinds of shit, anything they could figure out since the beginning of time. All these fucks are dirty in some way. Who gives a shit. They arent fuckin heroes, they are usually just normal scumbags who could hit

What do you mean? Who will teach children abc's if pro athlete's don't?

[SP1!]

and they been taking all kinds of shit, anything they could figure out since the beginning of time. All these fucks are dirty in some way. Who gives a shit. They arent fuckin heroes, they are usually just normal scumbags who could hit

Again, bonds isnt being prosecuted for taking roids, hes being prosecuted for lying to the grand jury about it when they knew he had used them. Like I said, he should have taken the 5th like mcguire to get out of this shit, he had bad advice from his lawyers.

And mojo, the old time baseball fans didnt care for the power era, it was the general public that liked it a lot, most of the public doesnt care for a pitching duel in the games.

[TheMojoPin]

What do you mean? Who will teach children abc's if pro athlete's don't?

http://sportsmed.starwave.com/i/magazine/new/emanski_mcgriff.jpg

[midwestjeff]

These guys need to get back on the speed ASAP.

RIP Darryl Kile.

[Snoogans]

http://sportsmed.starwave.com/i/magazine/new/emanski_mcgriff.jpg

back to back TO BACK AAU National Championships. Try stoppin that wave

[TheMojoPin]

And mojo, the old time baseball fans didnt care for the power era, it was the general public that liked it a lot, most of the public doesnt care for a pitching duel in the games.

Old time baseball fans suck. This isn't 1934 baseball...this is modern baseball. The game has changed in an incredible number of ways. The only useful thing old time baseball fans can do is die off.

That said, I stand by the idea that most baseball fans were into the power-era. Those that griped were in a VERY tiny minority.

[TheMojoPin]

RIP Darryl Kile.

Leave it to a Cardinal to do something as stupid as popping some greenies before bed.

[Snoogans]

Leave it to a Cardinal to do something as stupid as popping some greenies before bed.

He shoulda saved a few for LaRussa so he didnt fall asleep at that traffic light

[foodcourtdruide]

Again, bonds isnt being prosecuted for taking roids, hes being prosecuted for lying to the grand jury about it when they knew he had used them. Like I said, he should have taken the 5th like mcguire to get out of this shit, he had bad advice from his lawyers.



I agree with you, however don't you feel the extent they are going to prove this is a tad excessive, and they are only doing so cause its bonds?

[Judge Smails]

Wait, athletes gave been taking steroids? I never heard that before this. I guess I'm the last to know.

[SP1!]

Old time baseball fans suck. This isn't 1934 baseball...this is modern baseball. The game has changed in an incredible number of ways. The only useful thing old time baseball fans can do is die off.

That said, I stand by the idea that most baseball fans were into the power-era. Those that griped were in a VERY tiny minority.

Well yeah it has changed a little, but in more ways it has stayed the same and while more of the public enjoys the power there are quite a few fans that look back on that era with disdain simply because of the juicing that went on.

I consider myself a baseball fan and I just thought guys were swinging for the fences too much to make a larger contract for themselves, I just wish our stadium was in a decent part of town instead of crack town.

[SP1!]

I agree with you, however don't you feel the extent they are going to prove this is a tad excessive, and they are only doing so cause its bonds?
I think its mainly because hes arrogant and lied, anyone that can read will know the feds dont take kindly to being lied to under oath, its a pretty easy offense to convict if this evidence is upheld.

But then again I think most shit the government does is excessive.

[spoon]

a witch hunt if 75% of the people are witches and the government knew it and allowed it cause it was good for the country. Then people found out, acted upset, and they had to act like they were offended by the witches. SUCH a crock of shit

Yah I say bullshit to all of that too.

[spoon]

WHO GIVES A FUCK ABOUT RECORDS?????????

Why is everyone so fuckin caught up on the damn past. past past past. WHO GIVES A FUCK. No matter what, you can't ever compare those numbers together cause with or without roids, the game changes, the concepts change, in all sports. The equiptment changes. You can only judge guys against their peers. FUCK records.

Why cant we just watch a game to be fuckin entertained anymore. Why does it have to mean something that some guy who pitched every other game in 1911 cause he never threw any breaking pitches or over 60 MPH has more wins then a guy in 2008? Who fuckin cares? Was the game exciting, awesome. No it wasnt? That sucks. 1925 DOESNT MAKE A FUCKIN DIFFERENCE

So to you tradition, honor and the spirit of fair play means shit? Got it.

[Snoogans]

So to you tradition, honor and the spirit of fair play means shit? Got it.

in pro sports, exactly. Just entertain me

[spoon]

Honestly, do baseball fans really care? Most people I talk to just want to movde forward and fix this. It looks loke the ones that care are a vindictive media and prosecuters that want their names is the news.

If he too cheated, I hope it's proven. If he lied, I hope he goes to jail. It's that simple. For a man who is so into karma and a lousy 40 bucks, I find ur stance odd to say the least. How much money and how many positions in MLB did said steroid users take from honest people chasing their dreams? Sorry, it's black and white. I don't accept the argument to look away now bc some did in the past. I wasn't and neve will be one of them.

[TheMojoPin]

Well yeah it has changed a little, but in more ways it has stayed the same and while more of the public enjoys the power there are quite a few fans that look back on that era with disdain simply because of the juicing that went on.

Which is ridiculous and hypocritical since most of them likely didn't have a problem with it at the time. Besides, even without the juicing, the game would have increased leaps and bounds power-wise compared to old timey baseball due to advances in fitness and health and training and the ability to do immediate scouting of other pitchers and teams wih the advances in replay technology over the last 20 years, plus the pitching mounds are lower compared to old time baseball.

And you're right, there some things that haven't changed in baseball over the decades...like cheating. This is probably the cheatingest game that ever cheated. Cheating has been part of baseball since day one. People cheated then, they cheat now and they'll cheat in the future. Cheating is an integral part of baseball. GOD BLESS CHEATING.

[Snoogans]

Which is ridiculous and hypocritical since most of them likely didn't have a problem with it at the time. Besides, even without the juicing, the game would have increased leaps and bounds power-wise compared to old timey baseball due to advances in fitness and health and training and the ability to do immediate scouting of other pitchers and teams wih the advances in replay technology over the last 20 years, plus the pitching mounds are lower compared to old time baseball.

And you're right, there some things that haven't changed in baseball over the decades...like cheating. This is probably the cheatingest game that ever cheated. Cheating has been part of baseball since day one. People cheated then, they cheat now and they'll cheat in the future. Cheating is an integral part of baseball. GOD BLESS CHEATING.

the only difference is people are out to catch them now. back then, writers didnt bring that shit up, cause people didnt wanna hear that kinda stuff about their "heroes". Now its just about ratings and views and paper sales, and so they just post that shit or write it or show it. Thats the ONLY change

[TheMojoPin]

He shoulda saved a few for LaRussa so he didnt fall asleep at that traffic light

Sure would have helped Josh Hancock see that truck.

[spoon]

Again, bonds isnt being prosecuted for taking roids, hes being prosecuted for lying to the grand jury about it when they knew he had used them. Like I said, he should have taken the 5th like mcguire to get out of this shit, he had bad advice from his lawyers.

And mojo, the old time baseball fans didnt care for the power era, it was the general public that liked it a lot, most of the public doesnt care for a pitching duel in the games.

It had the same result as the glowing puck in hockey, it expanded the market falsely for a short amount of time and brought back pissed off fans who would have come back in a year anyway.

And mojo, for one so up on the strategy of the game, you surely don't seem to mind what little there is thrown out the window via steroids and the power era.

[TheMojoPin]

the only difference is people are out to catch them now. back then, writers didnt bring that shit up, cause people didnt wanna hear that kinda stuff about their "heroes". Now its just about ratings and views and paper sales, and so they just post that shit or write it or show it. Thats the ONLY change

Plus this is the first time that they've cracked down on something and then tried to dig pack and bust people way after the fact. In the past, they let everyone get away with something until it became a big deal for whatever reason and then they cracked down, made some new rules and moved on. If you're gonna crack down on juicing, fine, but quit trying to dig up who was doing what 15 years ago. Yes, I know perjury is a whole other issue, but what I'm talking about is going on and it's BS.

[TheMojoPin]

It had the same result as the glowing puck in hockey, it expanded the market falsely for a short amount of time and brought back pissed off fans who would have come back in a year anyway.

And mojo, for one so up on the strategy of the game, you surely don't seem to mind what little there is thrown out the window via steroids and the power era.

Because, as I said, the power-era would have still been the power-era...steroids just made it more of a power-era.

Power is part of the game. I don't shun it. It's part of the strategy...it's also much more exciting than having to score most of the runs through bunts and hit and runs and smallball. I prefer a mix of both.

And steroids or otherwise, I think hitting a HR off of a MLB pitcher is the most impressive single feat can do in American professional sports. It's fucking amazing. Why wouldn't anyone who claims to be a fan of baseball not want to see them?

[foodcourtdruide]

If he too cheated, I hope it's proven. If he lied, I hope he goes to jail. It's that simple. For a man who is so into karma and a lousy 40 bucks, I find ur stance odd to say the least. How much money and how many positions in MLB did said steroid users take from honest people chasing their dreams? Sorry, it's black and white. I don't accept the argument to look away now bc some did in the past. I wasn't and neve will be one of them.

I think its unethical to treat bonds different just because he's bonds.bonds karma is his own problem, proving he loed should be a minor priority

[spoon]

Because, as I said, the power-era would have still been the power-era...steroids just made it more of a power-era.

Power is part of the game. I don't shun it. It's part of the strategy...it's also much more exciting than having to score most of the runs through bunts and hit and runs and smallball. I prefer a mix of both.

And steroids or otherwise, I think hitting a HR off of a MLB pitcher is the most impressive single feat can do in American professional sports. It's fucking amazing. Why wouldn't anyone who claims to be a fan of baseball not want to see them?

Who said anything of the sort based on your last question? I in fact DO love a true homerun and want to appreciate it for what it's worth, not how someone cheated to hit it.

[TheMojoPin]

Who said anything of the sort based on your last question? I in fact DO love a true homerun and want to appreciate it for what it's worth, not how someone cheated to hit it.

But it's so subjective. It's not like these guys weren't going to hit home runs anyway. It doesn't make bad hitters into good hitters. So a guy hits 60 intead 45. So a guy hits 40 instead of 30, or 30 instead of 25...so what? What is lost? How can anyone tell the difference between a "real" home run and a "cheat" home run?

[spoon]

But it's so subjective. It's not like these guys weren't going to hit home runs anyway. It doesn't make bad hitters into good hitters. So a guy hits 60 intead 45. So a guy hits 40 instead of 30, or 30 instead of 25...so what? What is lost? How can anyone tell the difference between a "real" home run and a "cheat" home run?

It's pretty easy, let's be honest here. Has cheating been an issue in baseball, of course. Hell it's even a part of the tradition (bad part) I speak of. However, I'm not for letting those caught, those that have gained from it falsely slide bc it's entertainment. To me it sucks that my era is linked to it, as it's really not the same to me as spitting on a ball or sandpaper. It's all subjective indeed, but that's exactly why I put my views out there just as you and Snoogans have.

[CHUCKWAGONCOOK]

James Bond tested positive for AIDS? What's going on?

[spoon]

Shit, I just got the chance to watch the 93 World Series again on ESPN Classic and it's painfully obvious Dykstra was soo fucking juiced it's comical.

To see them put up the records he was tying and breaking in that series was shameful to me and hard to watch. Sure era to era games change and new ledgends in them are born. You know what, I'd rather it be those that earn/deserve it versus some dick like "NAILS" sticking fucking needles in his ass to help a team possible take another team's spot and or put himself in the limelight. I'm a realist though, and realize things like this will always be out there. So I also say fight back against them when you can or else the game will only fall faster and into worse issues.

[TheMojoPin]

Shit, I just got the chance to watch the 93 World Series again on ESPN Classic and it's painfully obvious Dykstra was soo fucking juiced it's comical.

To see them put up the records he was tying and breaking in that series was shameful to me and hard to watch. Sure era to era games change and new ledgends in them are born. You know what, I'd rather it be those that earn/deserve it versus some dick like "NAILS" sticking fucking needles in his ass to help a team possible take another team's spot and or put himself in the limelight. I'm a realist though, and realize things like this will always be out there. So I also say fight back against them when you can or else the game will only fall faster and into worse issues.

I don't understand how other forms of cheating are "earning it" but steroids isn't it. The guys still have to have talent to actually get something out of them. A shitty player on 'roids is still a shitty player (see Neifi "Fucking" Perez and Matt "Who?" Lawton, etc.).

And "fall faster?" That implies it's "falling" already. How?

Do you have a problem with how players have used various stimulants and uppers and amphetamines for most of baseball's history?

[spoon]

I don't understand how other forms of cheating are "earning it" but steroids isn't it. The guys still have to have talent to actually get something out of them. A shitty player on 'roids is still a shitty player (see Neifi "Fucking" Perez and Matt "Who?" Lawton, etc.).

And "fall faster?" That implies it's "falling" already. How?

Do you have a problem with how players have used various stimulants and uppers and amphetamines for most of baseball's history?

First off, your quotes are off, bc I said I'd rather someone earn it, vs cheating. All I did with the other forms of cheating was agree with you it has been there, and I already stated that we shouldn't just let it happen when we know it's there....no matter what form it takes. If we do, it'll only set the limits of what's acceptable, strike that, what's tolerated on the edges even lower.

And how do you know that said shitty player wouldn't have been so bad they didn't even get a shot at AA ball, let alone taking a spot on a major league level for many years shitty or not. If almost all players in question get around the same bump from steroids, even if on a sliding scale based on raw talent in one form or another, it's an advantage over those that don't. I take issue with that, and surely anyone competing for spots would if they were on that side of the fence.

Let's use MCATs as an example. Say you could hack the new computer based system with the help of some new dirty company and boost your score 10 points and a letter grade on the written, is that fair for those who don't. Say you spent your whole life working to realize your dream to become a physician only to be turned away again and again bc your rightfult spot/chance was sucked up by another with less moral ground and or standards!? Sorry Kevin, I don't see how this is ok in any way shape or form.

[TheMojoPin]

And how do you know that said shitty player wouldn't have been so bad they didn't even get a shot at AA ball, let alone taking a spot on a major league level for many years shitty or not. If almost all players in question get around the same bump from steroids, even if on a sliding scale based on raw talent in one form or another, it's an advantage over those that don't. I take issue with that, and surely anyone competing for spots would if they were on that side of the fence.

Because steroids don't work that way. At the most, all they'll do for a shitty player is help them heal faster or not get injured or maybe give them a little more power on the off-chance they actually hit the sweet spot.

Let's use MCATs as an example. Say you could hack the new computer based system with the help of some new dirty company and boost your score 10 points and a letter grade on the written, is that fair for those who don't. Say you spent your whole life working to realize your dream to become a physician only to be turned away again and again bc your rightfult spot/chance was sucked up by another with less moral ground and or standards!? Sorry Kevin, I don't see how this is ok in any way shape or form.

Because it's tremendously unlikely that steroids have that impact on the lower competitive levels outside of curtailing injuries (which is what they've been used for most of the time at that level). Guys that hit for power down there are going to do it with or without being juiced. It's very unlikely that steroids are going to be the make or break difference for someone getting a shot outside of them perhaps keeping them off the DL.

[spoon]

Because steroids don't work that way. At the most, all they'll do for a shitty player is help them heal faster or not get injured or maybe give them a little more power on the off-chance they actually hit the sweet spot.



Because it's tremendously unlikely that steroids have that impact on the lower competitive levels outside of curtailing injuries (which is what they've been used for most of the time at that level). Guys that hit for power down there are going to do it with or without being juiced. It's very unlikely that steroids are going to be the make or break difference for someone getting a shot outside of them perhaps keeping them off the DL.

Well I can tell you this, I know you're wrong from personal experience at an even lower level, high school and college. Not once, but twice in my hs/college career did I have to compete against known steroid users, AFTER they were clearly beat out for positions on football and track relay spots. They not only got bigger once on steroids, they got faster, more agile and insane. Some ramped up for positions such as linebacker, other took in a different way to cut up and gain speed. While I'm no expert on the drugs bc I've never even thought once to try them, I saw full transformations for kids, young adults on them. They went from ok or hanger ons, to almost and sometimes actually taking starting roles on teams. One kid ended up getting/taking a scholarship away from the kid who actually earned it. Most on the team knew, some cared. Guess what camp I was in.

[topless_mike]

Baseball fans hated the power-era?

Yeah, right. That sure wasn't the case at the time. Steroids saved baseball.

Much more than the crackdown on steroids, the crackdown on amphetamines has seriously damaged the game. These guys need to get back on the speed ASAP.

i have to agree with you.
i'd rather watch pitchers throw 100+ and batters park them 500'+ than a 1-0 game.

give me action or give me death !

viva la roids !

[SP1!]

Which is ridiculous and hypocritical since most of them likely didn't have a problem with it at the time. Besides, even without the juicing, the game would have increased leaps and bounds power-wise compared to old timey baseball due to advances in fitness and health and training and the ability to do immediate scouting of other pitchers and teams wih the advances in replay technology over the last 20 years, plus the pitching mounds are lower compared to old time baseball.

And you're right, there some things that haven't changed in baseball over the decades...like cheating. This is probably the cheatingest game that ever cheated. Cheating has been part of baseball since day one. People cheated then, they cheat now and they'll cheat in the future. Cheating is an integral part of baseball. GOD BLESS CHEATING.

No most baseball purists had a problem with it at the time, the public as a whole loved it more just like the public loved it when football teams score a lot of points, to me neither really means it translates to a good game. And cheating how? The only real cheating I knew of before hand were the blacksox and the speed everyone took in the 70s and that was more to get high than to play, have you ever played fucked up? I dont recommend it at all its scary watching a ball come at you when you have the shakes.

Because, as I said, the power-era would have still been the power-era...steroids just made it more of a power-era.

Power is part of the game. I don't shun it. It's part of the strategy...it's also much more exciting than having to score most of the runs through bunts and hit and runs and smallball. I prefer a mix of both.

And steroids or otherwise, I think hitting a HR off of a MLB pitcher is the most impressive single feat can do in American professional sports. It's fucking amazing. Why wouldn't anyone who claims to be a fan of baseball not want to see them?
No the power era wouldnt have been that way, quite a few of bonds, sosa, and mcguires moonshots would have been warning track fly balls instead of tape measure homeruns in the same era.

And guys like aaron boone or brady anderson wouldnt have had record setting years either, it basically turned men into supermen on the field and to me thats just not right, if you want entertainment go watch crappy hollywood films. Leave sports to just regular guys who were blessed with just a little bit of natural athletic ability.

[cougarjake13]

Who really is surprised at this? (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3884416)

Court documents show Barry Bonds tested positive for three types of steroids, and his personal trainer once told his business manager in the San Francisco Giants' clubhouse how he injected the slugger with performance-enhancing drugs "all over the place."

Prosecutors plan to use those 2000-03 test results and other evidence, detailed in documents released Wednesday, at Bonds' trial next month to show he lied when he told a federal grand jury in December 2003 that he never knowingly used steroids.
Prosecutors: Bonds tested positive

Bonds' attorneys want that evidence suppressed, and U.S. District Judge Susan Illston is to hear arguments Thursday on what to allow jurors to hear.

Well no shit, what attorney wouldnt want that suppressed?




not surprised at all


but if any team woulda took a chance on him this year which was doubtful anyway they wont now

[TheMojoPin]

No most baseball purists had a problem with it at the time, the public as a whole loved it more just like the public loved it when football teams score a lot of points, to me neither really means it translates to a good game. And cheating how? The only real cheating I knew of before hand were the blacksox and the speed everyone took in the 70s and that was more to get high than to play, have you ever played fucked up? I dont recommend it at all its scary watching a ball come at you when you have the shakes.

What cheating? Seriously?

And players only took uppers and greenies and their ilk in the 70's?

You're either willfully ignoring reality or you need to do a lot more digging into baseball history.

No the power era wouldnt have been that way, quite a few of bonds, sosa, and mcguires moonshots would have been warning track fly balls instead of tape measure homeruns in the same era.

And guys like aaron boone or brady anderson wouldnt have had record setting years either, it basically turned men into supermen on the field and to me thats just not right, if you want entertainment go watch crappy hollywood films. Leave sports to just regular guys who were blessed with just a little bit of natural athletic ability.

You honestly think the 90's still wouldn't have been a power era that trumped all that came before it? Methinks you're giving the juice a little too much credit. Guys hitting 50-60 home runs on the stuff would still be hitting at least 30-40 with it. The 90's would have still been an unprecedented era of power in baseball even sans steroids.

And professional athletes aren't "just regular guys blessed with a little bit of talent." Professional athletes are the very best of the best. Your description is some fanciful notion that doesn't match reality.

[TheMojoPin]

Well I can tell you this, I know you're wrong from personal experience at an even lower level, high school and college. Not once, but twice in my hs/college career did I have to compete against known steroid users, AFTER they were clearly beat out for positions on football and track relay spots. They not only got bigger once on steroids, they got faster, more agile and insane. Some ramped up for positions such as linebacker, other took in a different way to cut up and gain speed. While I'm no expert on the drugs bc I've never even thought once to try them, I saw full transformations for kids, young adults on them. They went from ok or hanger ons, to almost and sometimes actually taking starting roles on teams. One kid ended up getting/taking a scholarship away from the kid who actually earned it. Most on the team knew, some cared. Guess what camp I was in.

And guess what I was talking about...the difference between someone making it to the MLB or not. That's the very pinnacle of baseball. Comparing that to high school and even college-level baseball is nowhere near the same thing. In those levels, the talent field is far more blurred and it's much easier for people who aren't the very best to get noticed if they go from average to good. Once you're in the minors on the verge of breaking through to the MLB, that's not the case. Steroids aren't going to suddenly make a player at that level turn into something they're not...they'll enhance talents and skills that had already been noticed and scouted.

[Knowledged_one]

Cheating has been going on for a long time in ty cobb's autobiography he said the first day up in the majors he was sat down by the manager and told about how they had a guy with field glasses stealing the signs and would relay them through the scoreboard.

[spoon]

And guess what I was talking about...the difference between someone making it to the MLB or not. That's the very pinnacle of baseball. Comparing that to high school and even college-level baseball is nowhere near the same thing. In those levels, the talent field is far more blurred and it's much easier for people who aren't the very best to get noticed if they go from average to good. Once you're in the minors on the verge of breaking through to the MLB, that's not the case. Steroids aren't going to suddenly make a player at that level turn into something they're not...they'll enhance talents and skills that had already been noticed and scouted.

I realize the difference in levels, anyone would, but at least it's some evidence I ACTUALLY witnessed versus simply stating you think it wouldn't make that much a difference at this level. I don't see it that way, you do. I guess that's where we stand bc it's not the easiest thing to prove either way. However, it is easy to see which side of the moral issue people stand, and I'm not one for siding with a cheaters, no matter who they are (Merriman/Zaun).

[SP1!]

What cheating? Seriously?

And players only took uppers and greenies and their ilk in the 70's?

You're either willfully ignoring reality or you need to do a lot more digging into baseball history.

You honestly think the 90's still wouldn't have been a power era that trumped all that came before it? Methinks you're giving the juice a little too much credit. Guys hitting 50-60 home runs on the stuff would still be hitting at least 30-40 with it. The 90's would have still been an unprecedented era of power in baseball even sans steroids.

And professional athletes aren't "just regular guys blessed with a little bit of talent." Professional athletes are the very best of the best. Your description is some fanciful notion that doesn't match reality.
I know a lot more about history than most people and trust me speed doesnt make a big difference, other drugs werent really considered viable back then, I do agree most reporters over looked their drinking and fucking every woman just to be friends with the players.

And yes the 90s mainly were the power era because of all the enhanced drugs, that is undeniable, fuck brady anderson went from hitting HRs in the teens to all of a sudden hitting 50. Im sure that was only the result of better equipment and a different training regimen. Get your head out of the sand.

[SP1!]

Cheating has been going on for a long time in ty cobb's autobiography he said the first day up in the majors he was sat down by the manager and told about how they had a guy with field glasses stealing the signs and would relay them through the scoreboard.

Yeah that never really works for hitting, the only way it would work may be for base stealing signals but for hitting its impossible to relay the pitch back to the batter in time for it to be of any use.

[SP1!]

And guess what I was talking about...the difference between someone making it to the MLB or not. That's the very pinnacle of baseball. Comparing that to high school and even college-level baseball is nowhere near the same thing. In those levels, the talent field is far more blurred and it's much easier for people who aren't the very best to get noticed if they go from average to good. Once you're in the minors on the verge of breaking through to the MLB, that's not the case. Steroids aren't going to suddenly make a player at that level turn into something they're not...they'll enhance talents and skills that had already been noticed and scouted.
I understand what you think you are saying but its just not true, you had players that were lifelong backups or bounced around the minors suddenly being superstars, then when testing started they ended up out of the league or went back to being back ups.

Bonds was a good baseball player, there is no denying that but to say that he didnt turn into a power hitter after after he met the balco boy you are crazy, a good year was maybe 35 HRs and a high average with a lot of doubles. Then after his power numbers start to dip a bit (which happens in the late 30s ball player) all of a sudden he sees a huge power surge that turned what used to be off the wall doubles or warning track fly balls into HRs. I thought bonds was a good player before and was just arrogant, but I still would have wanted him on my team after all that shit came out I wouldnt want him on my team, he was a douche.

[TheMojoPin]

I know a lot more about history than most people and trust me speed doesnt make a big difference, other drugs werent really considered viable back then, I do agree most reporters over looked their drinking and fucking every woman just to be friends with the players.

You're glossing over waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much. Hell, just start with pitchers alone...enough cheating there from day one up until now to fill a huge book.

And you're understating the effects of uppers for the better part of the century on the sport up until they finally cracked down on them a few years ago. Just look at the drop off in performaces you see all the time when guys have to play tight schedules with little rest. Uppers allowed them to play on much less rest and through pain and just generally be more alert. I can't seriously believe you think they didn't effect much if you say you're versed on the history of baseball.

And yes the 90s mainly were the power era because of all the enhanced drugs, that is undeniable, fuck brady anderson went from hitting HRs in the teens to all of a sudden hitting 50. Im sure that was only the result of better equipment and a different training regimen. Get your head out of the sand.

No, the 90's weren't "mainly" a power era because of steroids...get your head in a stat book. Track power numbers from the 60's on up. What do you see them doing across the board? STEADILY AND NOTICEABLY INCREASING WITH EACH DECADE. Right up to when the steroid era is belived to have begun. Did the power numbers jump dramatically in the steroid era? Of course, but stop talking it wouldn't have been a power era to beat all other eras of baseball up until that point without steroids. Guys like Brady Anderson weren't the rule...the rule was power hitters hitting for more power. Guys usually hitting 25 now hitting 35, or 45 now hitting 55-60, that sort of thing. You subtract the 'roids, you'd still would have had a slew of monsters hitting more home runs and XBH than ever before.

[TheMojoPin]

I understand what you think you are saying but its just not true, you had players that were lifelong backups or bounced around the minors suddenly being superstars, then when testing started they ended up out of the league or went back to being back ups.

Superstars? Like who?

Bonds was a good baseball player, there is no denying that but to say that he didnt turn into a power hitter after after he met the balco boy you are crazy, a good year was maybe 35 HRs and a high average with a lot of doubles. Then after his power numbers start to dip a bit (which happens in the late 30s ball player) all of a sudden he sees a huge power surge that turned what used to be off the wall doubles or warning track fly balls into HRs. I thought bonds was a good player before and was just arrogant, but I still would have wanted him on my team after all that shit came out I wouldnt want him on my team, he was a douche.

Your first problem is saying one of the best players of all time (yes, even pre-juiced) was only "good." The reason he is one of the greatest of all time is why he had such a dramatic power bump compared to almost anyone else: how well he sees the ball as a batter. He's arguably the best hitter of the modern era specifically in that regard (and no, I didn't just say he was THE best hitter...read it again). In that sense, yes, the steroids gave him a gigantic advantage because of his batter's eye, which was light years beyond anyone else. Bonds is not the norm. Bonds is not the model for steroid use.

[Last To KNow Man]

There are Steroids in Baseball? I can't believe it!

[SP1!]

You're glossing over waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much. Hell, just start with pitchers alone...enough cheating there from day one up until now to fill a huge book.

And you're understating the effects of uppers for the better part of the century on the sport up until they finally cracked down on them a few years ago. Just look at the drop off in performaces you see all the time when guys have to play tight schedules with little rest. Uppers allowed them to play on much less rest and through pain and just generally be more alert. I can't seriously believe you think they didn't effect much if you say you're versed on the history of baseball.



No, the 90's weren't "mainly" a power era because of steroids...get your head in a stat book. Track power numbers from the 60's on up. What do you see them doing across the board? STEADILY AND NOTICEABLY INCREASING WITH EACH DECADE. Right up to when the steroid era is belived to have begun. Did the power numbers jump dramatically in the steroid era? Of course, but stop talking it wouldn't have been a power era to beat all other eras of baseball up until that point without steroids. Guys like Brady Anderson weren't the rule...the rule was power hitters hitting for more power. Guys usually hitting 25 now hitting 35, or 45 now hitting 55-60, that sort of thing. You subtract the 'roids, you'd still would have had a slew of monsters hitting more home runs and XBH than ever before.

The uppers did a lot less in comparison to steroids, you cant even make the comparison that they are the same.

And you have to be crazy not to see the output of power is way to much to be players getting better, you may occasionally have a freak like pujols or howard but you will not have every HR leader hit in the high 40s, hell even bonds had a hard time cracking 40 before he started roiding it up.

Superstars? Like who?



Your first problem is saying one of the best players of all time (yes, even pre-juiced) was only "good." The reason he is one of the greatest of all time is why he had such a dramatic power bump compared to almost anyone else: how well he sees the ball as a batter. He's arguably the best hitter of the modern era specifically in that regard (and no, I didn't just say he was THE best hitter...read it again). In that sense, yes, the steroids gave him a gigantic advantage because of his batter's eye, which was light years beyond anyone else. Bonds is not the norm. Bonds is not the model for steroid use.

I named 2 off the top of my head, brady anderson was a solid utility player and aaron boone was a decent infielder but after the steroids started gaining in popularity they started turning into superstars getting outside deals and huge contracts based on their offensive numbers. There are a ton more and I dont think any team was immune, I know quite a few braves fans who say their players didnt take them but Im sure javy lopez was on them, ron gant, rafael furcal, and justice at the end.

I will be willing to bet outside of howard, there will be a severe drop off in HR numbers the next few years, maybe pujols but he is already starting to have back problems.

Yes bonds is a great player, its kinda sad you have to pick on that choice of wording to make your point, but his actions lately have made me sick but hes too arrogant to think he did anything wrong. I think bonds is one of the all time best hitters but the fact remains he was not much of a power hitter and was mainly a doubles/average hitter for most of his career with a chance to hit around 30 HRs a year, people forget that bonilla was the power guy on those pittsburgh teams. Bonds was never even a candidate to come close to aarons record in the early 90s, it was always griffey who if he had stayed healthy would have broken it, the only reason bonds reached it was because of using and the roids helping him over come injury which is one of their main uses outside of muscle growth.

[TheMojoPin]

The uppers did a lot less in comparison to steroids, you cant even make the comparison that they are the same.

Where did I make the comparison? I tossed them out there as a counterexample to the "if it's cheating, it has no place in baseball" line of argument. You then tried to make it just about speed and claimed it was only really used in the 70's. I'm just pointing out one of the many forms of cheating that has gone on in baseball that gives certain players "unfair" advantages.

And you have to be crazy not to see the output of power is way to much to be players getting better, you may occasionally have a freak like pujols or howard but you will not have every HR leader hit in the high 40s, hell even bonds had a hard time cracking 40 before he started roiding it up.

You track those increasing power numbers, a lot of guys throughout the 90's would still have been ending up with HR numbers in the 30's and even the 40's each season. I'm not arguing that nobody used steroids...they obviously did. I'm saying I don't care that anyone did because they ultimately didn't cause as dramatic a gulf as people claim between what we saw and what a "juiceless" 90's likely would have been like. Yes, you had the few scattered uber-freaks who really cranked it up...but so what? Like you said, there's always a few guys who put up insane numbers.

I named 2 off the top of my head, brady anderson was a solid utility player and aaron boone was a decent infielder but after the steroids started gaining in popularity they started turning into superstars getting outside deals and huge contracts based on their offensive numbers. There are a ton more and I dont think any team was immune, I know quite a few braves fans who say their players didnt take them but Im sure javy lopez was on them, ron gant, rafael furcal, and justice at the end.

Aaron Boone was not, by any stretch of the word, a "superstar." (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/booneaa01.shtml) He's a horrible example.

Brady Anderson had ONE insanely good year in a rather average career. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/a/anderbr01.shtml) Again, these are your examples of "superstars?" Baseball was somehow forever damaged because Brady Anderson had one excellent year and people were dumb enough to overpay for Aaron Boone?

I will be willing to bet outside of howard, there will be a severe drop off in HR numbers the next few years, maybe pujols but he is already starting to have back problems.

I seriously doubt there will be. Why are power numbers going to drop off to pre-90's levels when they were only increasing? I agree you won't see the 90's numbers again, but a steady downfall of power seems unlikely unless something seriously chages along the lines of raising the pitching mound.

Yes bonds is a great player, its kinda sad you have to pick on that choice of wording to make your point, but his actions lately have made me sick but hes too arrogant to think he did anything wrong. I think bonds is one of the all time best hitters but the fact remains he was not much of a power hitter and was mainly a doubles/average hitter for most of his career with a chance to hit around 30 HRs a year, people forget that bonilla was the power guy on those pittsburgh teams.

I hate to break it to you, but a guy that typically hits 25+ home runs a season and has Bonds' pre-steroids (before 1998) numbers (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bondsba01.shtml)IS a power hitter.

Look at his slugging numbers leading up to '98. That's a power hitter. You can't argue that that's not a power hitter. He hit less then 25 home runs only 3 times...his first year, when he played 113 games and hit 16, in 1989 when he hit 19, and in '88 when he hit 24 and missed almost 20 games. Bonds was never not a power hitter. He just became significantly MORE of a power hitter when he got on the juice.

Bonds was never even a candidate to come close to aarons record in the early 90s, it was always griffey who if he had stayed healthy would have broken it, the only reason bonds reached it was because of using and the roids helping him over come injury which is one of their main uses outside of muscle growth.

Which is why steroids are awesome. I simply don't think guys spending less time on the DL is a bad thing. I love that factor of them far more than the power benefits.

But yeah, I'm not arguing that he wouldn't have beaten the record without "help." That's arguably going to be true for anyone who beat that record far enough after Aaron set it. You could argue that anyone who broke it now has access to things Aaron never did ad that it gives them an unfair advantage. I too wish Junior had broken the record instead of Bonds, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it because guys like ARod and/or Adam Dunn and the like are going to break it again down the line in a few years.

[Gvac]

Steroids are disgusting.

I wish these men would live a clean and wholesome life and develop their bodies naturally, like my boyhood hero Captain America.

[TheMojoPin]

Steroids are disgusting.

I wish these men would live a clean and wholesome life and develop their bodies naturally, like my boyhood hero Captain America.

YEAH!!!