Death and Dying

[GregoryJoseph]

As a hospice physician I'm sure you've seen more than your share of death and dying. My question to you is whether you view it completely biologically or is there something more to it in your eyes?

I guess what I'm asking is if it's possible for someone such as yourself who has dedicated his life to working with dying people to see death as spiritual or meaningful in any way.

[Dr Steve]

As a hospice physician I'm sure you've seen more than your share of death and dying. My question to you is whether you view it completely biologically or is there something more to it in your eyes?

I guess what I'm asking is if it's possible for someone such as yourself who has dedicated his life to working with dying people to see death as spiritual or meaningful in any way.

Yeah, absolutely I do; I think about it every day, so I figured what the hell, I'll write a book about it. Stay tuned on that one...I may never finish it. :smile:

I've noticed that some people at least have some measure of control over when they die; I've seen many people say things like "i'm waiting for my son to get in from Iraq" and then they die right after the kid arrives. They can't forestall it forever, obviously, but there's a window there that they can manipulate a bit.

I see many, many people say that they see dead loved ones before they die...they never seem to see people who are alive but just not in the room, only dead people (or at least that's what my bias lets me remember). Is it a clever hallucination by the brain or something more? Who knows? I can construct a cool biological reason for this, I guess, but it's fascinating either way.

The truth of it all is that the truth is unknowable...that's where faith and science diverge. When we die we'll either know it all or we'll be completely oblivious. I could go on and on about this subject; better for a beer-y night out than on a forum, though. Anything more risks flame war. :-)

[GregoryJoseph]

Yeah, absolutely I do; I think about it every day, so I figured what the hell, I'll write a book about it. Stay tuned on that one...I may never finish it. :smile:

I've noticed that some people at least have some measure of control over when they die; I've seen many people say things like "i'm waiting for my son to get in from Iraq" and then they die right after the kid arrives. They can't forestall it forever, obviously, but there's a window there that they can manipulate a bit.

I see many, many people say that they see dead loved ones before they die...they never seem to see people who are alive but just not in the room, only dead people (or at least that's what my bias lets me remember). Is it a clever hallucination by the brain or something more? Who knows? I can construct a cool biological reason for this, I guess, but it's fascinating either way.

The truth of it all is that the truth is unknowable...that's where faith and science diverge. When we die we'll either know it all or we'll be completely oblivious. I could go on and on about this subject; better for a beer-y night out than on a forum, though. Anything more risks flame war. :-)

I know exactly what you mean about people seemingly being able to manipulate the time of their own death, hanging on until their "business" here is finished. Or how about the countless cases of spouses dying shortly after one another? They used to say "he died of a broken heart" and maybe that's not entirely untrue. Maybe if we completely and totally lose the will to live that spark of life within us is extinguished.

You spoke of faith and science diverging, and that's what has intrigued me for quite some time now. I think far too often we attempt to separate the two and set them up as polar opposites when in fact they may be two sides of the same coin.

I've always wondered how those in the medical field feel about spirituality, and I imagine it's the same as the rest of the population; there are those from every school of thought. I didn't always feel that way, though. I figured that once you were so immersed in the facts and science of everything there would be little room for religion and/or faith. I learned otherwise from personal experience.

A friend of mine from high school is a GP now, and I always found it curious that shortly after becoming a doctor he also became a born-again Christian. While I don't share his views on religion, we both view spirituality similarly. I asked him once what led him to discover religion after becoming a doctor and he said something along the lines of "the more you know the less you understand." The miracle of life is also unfathomable. Sure, we know how sperm swims to an egg and fertilizes it, and the DNA is all contained within. How tall that child will grow to be, what color hair, eyes, what shape nose, etc. Every single detail is contained within these microscopic cells. I can understand how someone who studies and witnesses that on an almost daily basis could come to no other conclusion than there is some sort of Great Intelligence guiding it all.

I completely understand if you wish to keep your beliefs private, or at least don't feel like sharing them on a public message board, but I wanted to ask if your faith and spirituality has either been strengthened or lessened after years of dealing with hospice patients. Again, I understand if you'd rather not answer.

Also, good luck with the book, and thanks so much for taking the time to respond.

Talk to ya soon,

Greg

[Thebazile78]

Dr. Steve hasn't mentioned Elisabeth Kubler-Ross's book On Death And Dying (http://www.amazon.com/Death-Dying-Scribner-Classics/dp/0684842238/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231728932&sr=8-3), which many people consider to be a founding influence of the hospice movement.

This work was a major breakthrough on multiple levels; many of us may "know" about the "stages of grief" .... these were described by Dr. Kubler-Ross based on her experiences with physicians, patients and family members during her internship rotation in a hospital cancer ward.

While many today may consider the late Dr. Kubler-Ross to be a bit of a wackadoo (her later writings were well-intentioned, but kind of "New Agey"), her work towards redefining the medical professions attitudes towards death and dying, especially the introduction of the concept of "dying with dignity" have brought end-of-life care in this country forward in many ways.

Unfortunately, we've still a long way to go before death in this country is treated as "just another part of life" ... but we're constantly making strides.

[GregoryJoseph]

Still waiting for a response to part 2 of my question, Doctor.

I'm not being impatient, I just don't know if you saw it.

Thank you again for all your tireless work and kindness.

[chocolatetown]

the second part of your question sucks - why would anybody want to answer it?

We're all raised different ways so why the fuck does it matter what somebody else believes?

Dr. Steve, where do I buy that stuff that hardens the wax in my ears and allows me to pull it out in a hardened tube form? I saw it on Oprah more than a decade ago when I was young and I continually recall it.

I need to rid myself of this Oprah earwax memory.

[drusilla]

I've noticed that some people at least have some measure of control over when they die; I've seen many people say things like "i'm waiting for my son to get in from Iraq" and then they die right after the kid arrives. They can't forestall it forever, obviously, but there's a window there that they can manipulate a bit.




my aunt was in & out of the hospital for years & when it got really bad she passed away the night her baby brother who she hadn't seen in a few years came to visit from california. it was like she was waiting & waiting to see him & once she did she felt at ease.

on a similar note, my sister-in-law's mother passed away in the hospital while why sister-in-law was on vacation. she had also been sick for a while we felt she waited till after my sister-in-law went away so that she could go in peace because my sister-in-law wasn't letting her if that makes any sense.



i hate how many times i had to type "sister-in-law"

[jonyrotn]

Watching a human being die, I mean literally watching him in the throws of death, seeing his entire exsistence snuffed out right before your eyes, SUCKS baby jesus' giant how you doin'..

Avoid it at all costs..Especially if it's a violent or traumatic death..

[Gvac]

You can't ignore this thread forever, Doc.

Just sayin'.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

U should start this thread in a different forum. And PM Steve to get his attention :wink:

[Kevin]

I wish Gvac would ask more than 1 part questions. If he ever would ask two part questions, i think it would be amazing.

[Gvac]

Dr. Steve and I used to be good buddies.

Apparently I've pissed him off.

For that I am dreadfully sorry.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

Dr. Steve and I used to be good buddies.

Apparently I've pissed him off.

For that I am dreadfully sorry.

Doctors have synthetic feelings. Which would explain why they're robots.

[Gvac]

I know exactly what you mean about people seemingly being able to manipulate the time of their own death, hanging on until their "business" here is finished. Or how about the countless cases of spouses dying shortly after one another? They used to say "he died of a broken heart" and maybe that's not entirely untrue. Maybe if we completely and totally lose the will to live that spark of life within us is extinguished.

You spoke of faith and science diverging, and that's what has intrigued me for quite some time now. I think far too often we attempt to separate the two and set them up as polar opposites when in fact they may be two sides of the same coin.

I've always wondered how those in the medical field feel about spirituality, and I imagine it's the same as the rest of the population; there are those from every school of thought. I didn't always feel that way, though. I figured that once you were so immersed in the facts and science of everything there would be little room for religion and/or faith. I learned otherwise from personal experience.

A friend of mine from high school is a GP now, and I always found it curious that shortly after becoming a doctor he also became a born-again Christian. While I don't share his views on religion, we both view spirituality similarly. I asked him once what led him to discover religion after becoming a doctor and he said something along the lines of "the more you know the less you understand." The miracle of life is also unfathomable. Sure, we know how sperm swims to an egg and fertilizes it, and the DNA is all contained within. How tall that child will grow to be, what color hair, eyes, what shape nose, etc. Every single detail is contained within these microscopic cells. I can understand how someone who studies and witnesses that on an almost daily basis could come to no other conclusion than there is some sort of Great Intelligence guiding it all.

I completely understand if you wish to keep your beliefs private, or at least don't feel like sharing them on a public message board, but I wanted to ask if your faith and spirituality has either been strengthened or lessened after years of dealing with hospice patients. Again, I understand if you'd rather not answer.

Also, good luck with the book, and thanks so much for taking the time to respond.

Talk to ya soon,

Greg

Still waiting for a response to part 2 of my question, Doctor.

I'm not being impatient, I just don't know if you saw it.

Thank you again for all your tireless work and kindness.

You can't ignore this thread forever, Doc.

Just sayin'.

Dr. Steve and I used to be good buddies.

Apparently I've pissed him off.

For that I am dreadfully sorry.


Just bumping this thread on the odd chance you see it.

[Dr Steve]

I completely understand if you wish to keep your beliefs private, or at least don't feel like sharing them on a public message board, but I wanted to ask if your faith and spirituality has either been strengthened or lessened after years of dealing with hospice patients. Again, I understand if you'd rather not answer.
Greg

No, I just don't have any really concrete answers...just "food for thought" crap.

However, the whole spirituality and medicine thing is very interesting. Patients tell us time and time again through surveys and studies that they want their spiritual needs addressed. They don't want us to preach at them, but they do want us to address spiritual issues as part of the medical process. We usually take a "spiritual history" as part of our interview of the patient. Knowing what's what with regard to the patient's spiritual beliefs makes a HUGE difference in dealing with them effectively.

Somewhere I have an article about a "Therapeutic Baptism" that we did on a patient in the ICU. I'll post it in here if you're interested. It was an example of pure "Spiritual Pain", a malady that no pill will cure.

Working in hospice hasn't strengthened or weakened my spirituality; rather my spirituality has allowed me to continue to work in hospice without going crazy.

your pal,


steve

[Dr Steve]

Dr. Steve and I used to be good buddies.

Apparently I've pissed him off.

For that I am dreadfully sorry.

ha, you nut, no, here's what happens...

I get behind on the "Ask Dr Steve" thread and that's ALL I look at. I have a problem in that if I open the WM forum, answer a question and come back, I can no longer see what threads have new posts in them.

Sorry pal, I wouldn't want you to think anything other than I am a slack-ass mod.

your pal,


steve

[GregoryJoseph]

No, I just don't have any really concrete answers...just "food for thought" crap.

However, the whole spirituality and medicine thing is very interesting. Patients tell us time and time again through surveys and studies that they want their spiritual needs addressed. They don't want us to preach at them, but they do want us to address spiritual issues as part of the medical process. We usually take a "spiritual history" as part of our interview of the patient. Knowing what's what with regard to the patient's spiritual beliefs makes a HUGE difference in dealing with them effectively.

Somewhere I have an article about a "Therapeutic Baptism" that we did on a patient in the ICU. I'll post it in here if you're interested. It was an example of pure "Spiritual Pain", a malady that no pill will cure.

Working in hospice hasn't strengthened or weakened my spirituality; rather my spirituality has allowed me to continue to work in hospice without going crazy.

your pal,


steve

I would be very interested in reading that "Therapeutic Baptism" article you mentioned, and thank you for giving such an honest answer.

I've got my eye on you, Doc.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/17892/465542-eyeofagamotto01_thumb.jpg

[Gvac]

ha, you nut, no, here's what happens...

I get behind on the "Ask Dr Steve" thread and that's ALL I look at. I have a problem in that if I open the WM forum, answer a question and come back, I can no longer see what threads have new posts in them.

Sorry pal, I wouldn't want you to think anything other than I am a slack-ass mod.

your pal,


steve

Fear not.

I've got your number. :tongue: