Nature vs Nurture [Archive] - RonFez.net Messageboard

Gvac

12-23-2008, 07:56 PM

Dr Steve

12-30-2008, 08:20 PM

Hey Doc, a real out-of-left-field question, but what's your feeling on nature vs. nurture when it comes to certain traits? For example: are we born with our personalities or are they formed by our upbringing? Homosexuality: genetics or choice?

Any medical studies you can cite to back up either side?

Thanks!

GVAC:

we will be covering this very soon on "Weird Medicine". The answer is, it's insanely more complicated than we think.

For example, how do we explain identical twins, one is gay, one is straight. If it was pure genetics, they'd both be gay (or straight), because they have exactly the same genetic code. If it was pure environment , they'd both be gay or straight because they have the exact same upbringing.

So it can't be either, but it must be one or the other or a combination of both. Incomplete expression of certain genes, even within identical twins gives us at least a partial answer.

How DNA can possibly code for a weird liking for menthol cigarettes (which happens in twins that are separated at birth) and stuff like that is even harder to explain.

So the answer regarding nurture vs nature is that it's neither and it's both.

Tough shit if we don't like that answer, it's just how it is. :-)

your pal,

steve

ToiletCrusher

12-30-2008, 08:31 PM

GVAC:

we will be covering this very soon on "Weird Medicine". The answer is, it's insanely more complicated than we think.

For example, how do we explain identical twins, one is gay, one is straight. If it was pure genetics, they'd both be gay (or straight), because they have exactly the same genetic code. If it was pure environment , they'd both be gay or straight because they have the exact same upbringing.

So it can't be either, but it must be one or the other or a combination of both. Incomplete expression of certain genes, even within identical twins gives us at least a partial answer.

How DNA can possibly code for a weird liking for menthol cigarettes (which happens in twins that are separated at birth) and stuff like that is even harder to explain.

So the answer regarding nurture vs nature is that it's neither and it's both.

Tough shit if we don't like that answer, it's just how it is. :-)

your pal,

steve

I appreciate your take on this. Having studied and worked with children and adolescents with ADHD for the past 5 years, there is some evidence that points to DNA markers for a child suffering from this disorder. However, I still maintain that many psychologic disorders are heavily influenced by environment. There are exceptions to this like Down's or MR or any physiological disorder or disfigurement.

I would like to hear you and PA John discuss the medicinal routes for childhood and adolescent psych disorders. This is an exploding field, especially with things like the recent research on bi-polar disorder in children under 13.

That is primarily what I have studied and worked on, the interaction between medication treatment and behavior modification for ADHD and other disorders.

Perhaps you are familiar with William Pelham PhD. or Dr. James Waxmonsky or Dr. Martin Hoffman. They provide some 25+ years of comprehensive research on the etiology of and treatment of many different childhood mental disorders.

GregoryJoseph

01-03-2009, 08:18 PM

For example, how do we explain identical twins, one is gay, one is straight. If it was pure genetics, they'd both be gay (or straight), because they have exactly the same genetic code.

If there are documented cases of identical twins haven't different sexual preferences, doesn't that shoot a hole in the "it's not a choice" argument?

Dr Steve

01-05-2009, 12:03 PM

If there are documented cases of identical twins haven't different sexual preferences, doesn't that shoot a hole in the "it's not a choice" argument?

But as always, there's more to it than that...if one twin is gay, then there is an increased chance of the other twin being gay (i think the number is 25%). With the incidence in the population being 5-10%, this points to a genetic factor (but not an overwhelming one).

Identical twins have the same DNA, but they do not express their genes equally; there are these crazy switches that can turn genes on and off and they're different between individuals...even clones like identical twins. This is why identical twins don't always look "identical"...you can always tell them apart once you get to know them. Very few are "identical" enough to actually pull off a bait and switch scam, for instance. This may have something to do with sexual preference and genetics.

It's strange...it can't be all genetics, and it can't be all upbringing, so what the hell is it? What else is there?

Magic!

EliSnow

01-05-2009, 12:07 PM

So the answer regarding nurture vs nature is that it's neither and it's both.

Tough shit if we don't like that answer, it's just how it is. :-)

Is it comfortable sitting on that fence, doc?

:wink:

Grendel_Kahn

01-05-2009, 12:11 PM

My 19 year old daughter just came into my life this past September. Up to this point we have had virtually no contact and no influence on each other, as her mother kept us apart. Now that we are involved in each others lives ( thanks to Ronfez.net believe it or not) we see on a daily basis how much we have on common. Same musical taste, movie taste, same outlook on life. In fact we are almost twins in many many ways. We talk all day about the nature-v-nurture argument, and I personally think we are living proof of the nature angle. So I was wondering Dr. Steve, if you would kinda expand on your thoughts on this subject, but keeping our situation in mind.

Tallman388

01-05-2009, 12:16 PM

It's strange...it can't be all genetics, and it can't be all upbringing, so what the hell is it? What else is there?

Didn't Randolph & Mortimer Duke answer this very question back in the 80s?

Houston

01-05-2009, 02:08 PM

I think it might have something to do with Demonic Possession. I know your going to call me a bible thumping hayseed, but "demons" come in many sizes and shapes. They
are not all going to make you go out and kill. Some are demons of alcoholism, some are demons of gluttony. And some are demons of homosexuality. You are never born with these demons so it's not genetic. But a lot of times a person will let themselves be "opened up" to let them in.
I'm sure people are going to argue with me and say that with nothing is wrong homosexuality, so how could it be a "Demon"? We'll my friends, that's the first thing "the devil"(and I'm just useing these words because we are all familiar with them) it's the first thing it wants you to think. To think that society said it's not bad to this, so it must be OK.

Sometimes just because the majority say it's OK doesn't mean it won't bring you to the bowels of hell to burn for eternity.

Just saying, that's all.

Go ahead now, fire back all you demons.

midwestjeff

01-05-2009, 02:16 PM

Houston

01-05-2009, 02:21 PM

Yeah, I don't like people either. I'de rather be alone. At least until I decide that I want company. That's why I hardly ever answer my door or phone. I've got control of my life. Not anyone else.
I'm sure I got a few hundred demons in me too. That's how I roll. All Demonic and Shit.

GregoryJoseph

01-05-2009, 02:24 PM

I'll roll with ya on the evil demons Houston.

I have been confronted with much evil lately.
Just people being wicked for the sake of their own reward.
Tearing down anyone that presents him/herself as a peaceful acquaintance.
Now, I part with you on the faggotry thing, but there is certainly a natural urge in mankind to hurt the other beings in his/her vicinity.

It's natural to be wicked. You must nurture compassion.

I'll roll with you on temptation, but not on the "it's natural to be wicked" part of your post.

Yes, there are plenty of people who take a perverse delight in tearing down someone who is friendly and helpful, but I don't think it's the majority nor is it their natural inclination.

Mental illness plays a large part in these types of actions, and if it helps people to think of these illnesses as demons I guess that's OK, as long as you're willing to do battle with them.

The ones who refuse to confront these "demons" and constantly give in to them are the ones who will never know any sense of belonging or peace.

P.S. - Why has Houston been avoiding the Board Character thread?

Houston

01-05-2009, 02:35 PM

I'll roll with you on temptation, but not on the "it's natural to be wicked" part of your post.

Yes, there are plenty of people who take a perverse delight in tearing down someone who is friendly and helpful, but I don't think it's the majority nor is it their natural inclination.

Mental illness plays a large part in these types of actions, and if it helps people to think of these illnesses as demons I guess that's OK, as long as you're willing to do battle with them.

The ones who refuse to confront these "demons" and constantly give in to them are the ones who will never know any sense of belonging or peace.

P.S. - Why has Houston been avoiding the Board Character thread?
It's Just so much trouble logging in and out and in and out and in and out. Jezz Louis! I don't understand how you do it so often.

I don't think that they enjoy tearing people down so to speak. I think they like to ACT like the like it. Deep inside they still have the love of the "Lord" so to speak.

GregoryJoseph

01-05-2009, 02:37 PM

It's Just so much trouble logging in and out and in and out and in and out. Jezz Louis! I don't understand how you do it so often.

Pssst...multiple browsers.

IMSlacker

01-05-2009, 02:48 PM

Pssst...multiple browsers.

Multiple browsers screws me up every time.

Also, Tegan and Sara are twins and I believe they are both gay.

CHUCKWAGONCOOK

01-05-2009, 02:51 PM

Multiple browsers screws me up every time.

Also, Tegan and Sara are twins and I believe they are both gay.I've got Multiple TROWSERS that can have. If they are gay.

Back on subject. Demons are not real. They are something that the "Church" made up so you would be afraid and give them money to not be afraid anymore.

Houston

01-05-2009, 02:53 PM

CHUCKWAGONCOOK

01-05-2009, 02:55 PM

I rebuke you Demon of Chuck Wagons.:devil2: Go back to hell from witch you come.:innocent:

BLURRTDEDAT BRADATANITA

(head spins around and throws up)

midwestjeff

01-05-2009, 03:02 PM

I'll roll with you on temptation, but not on the "it's natural to be wicked" part of your post.

Yes, there are plenty of people who take a perverse delight in tearing down someone who is friendly and helpful, but I don't think it's the majority nor is it their natural inclination.

Mental illness plays a large part in these types of actions, and if it helps people to think of these illnesses as demons I guess that's OK, as long as you're willing to do battle with them.

The ones who refuse to confront these "demons" and constantly give in to them are the ones who will never know any sense of belonging or peace.

So the only way for someone to be evil is for them to be crazy?

I beg to differ. You equate the two, but evil resides on a whole different level of being.

Crazy is crazy, evil serves itself.

Demon is a word that takes christian conotations, but removed from that I would define it as simply an urge to destroy oneself or others.

Ritalin

01-05-2009, 03:10 PM

I have a friend who is gay and he is an identical twin. His brother is straight.

True story.

I've always wondered if my friend is choosing to be gay, or is his brother choosing to be straight? Not as easy a question as you think.

GregoryJoseph

01-05-2009, 03:19 PM

So the only way for someone to be evil is for them to be crazy?

No. I said mental illness "plays a large part" in people who seem to delight in hurting those who are kind to them.

Grendel_Kahn

01-05-2009, 03:41 PM

I've got Multiple TROWSERS that can have. If they are gay.

Back on subject. Demons are not real. They are something that the "Church" made up so you would be afraid and give them money to not be afraid anymore.

Amen to ALL that nonsense. When the first charlatan met the first simpleton "religion" was born. To me there is no difference between those that worshipped Apollo and Athena to the bible hitting right we currently have to suffer through here in 2009.

That is in no way helping or adding to the discussion at hand. I was looking for REAL answers. Not mumbo jumbo concocted by people to control other people.

midwestjeff

01-05-2009, 04:32 PM

No. I said mental illness "plays a large part" in people who seem to delight in hurting those who are kind to them.

Hurting others doesn't always result in personal delight. There are people, I have dealt with a few of them, that do what they do and the result never provides personal delight yet still causes severe pain in those around them. That is, these people do not mean harm, yet it still is a result of their personal decisions.

Stick with me, we'll get somewhere.

And to claim others are mentally ill is a large step in declaring that you know what it means to be sane. That is painting with a broad brush.

GregoryJoseph

01-05-2009, 04:34 PM

Hurting others doesn't always result in personal delight. There are people, I have dealt with a few of them, that do what they do and the result never provides personal delight yet still causes severe pain in those around them. That is, these people do not mean harm, yet it still is a result of their personal decisions.

Stick with me, we'll get somewhere.

And to claim others are mentally ill is a large step in declaring that you know what it means to be sane. That is painting with a broad brush.

Care to start a thread about this in the "That's Life" forum? We can discuss it rationally, with serious responses, and we won't be derailing this thread.

I'd love for you to expound on what you're speaking of.

midwestjeff

01-05-2009, 04:40 PM

Care to start a thread about this in the "That's Life" forum? We can discuss it rationally, with serious responses, and we won't be derailing this thread.

I'd love for you to expound on what you're speaking of.

Sorry for going off topic.

GregoryJoseph

01-05-2009, 04:43 PM

Sorry for going off topic.

I was serious!

Start up a thread. I like having serious conversations here sometimes.

This board can be a great tool. Where else can you get the thoughts, beliefs, and opinions of dozens of different people from all walks of life in a matter of hours?

WhistlePig

01-05-2009, 05:01 PM