Why do people hate Godfather III so much?

[K.C.]

I recently rewatched the whole trilogy. Just finished Part III tonight.

Granted, I think it's the weakest of the three, and there's a few problems with it (Andy Garcia was badly miscast).

But people talk about this movie like they loathe it, or it's the equivalent to the Godfather series what Rocky V is to the Rocky series.

I think the ending is absolutely brilliant. The contrast of the scene where Michael dies at the end versus the scene where Vito dies in the first movie brings the whole thing full circle, and tells you everything you need to know about how Vito ran his family versus how Michael did, which plays off the interweaving of the stories in the second movie.

Again, not the best movie...but I think it gets a lot of unfair criticism.

[ChrisTheCop]

It's hard to follow Part 2.
(good thing Part 1 came first).

My main problem with 3 is the acting; Sophia is godawful, and Garcia does his worst acting Ive ever seen. I'll agree the operatic climax is a masterpiece, and I actually love the way Pacino played it...but one scene just cant save the entire flick.

[PapaBear]

I don't loathe it, but it has some very bad acting and writing. I know it's almost unfair to compare it to the first two (because they were so good), but look at this way. If the first two didn't exist, the third one would be absolute shit. If it needs the first two to be good, then it should be A LOT closer to being as well done as the first two.

[ChrisTheCop]

Wow. I actually just said, "what papabear said"
but BEFORE he said what he said!

Thats gotta be a first!

[PapaBear]

Wow. I actually just said, "what papabear said"
but BEFORE he said what he said!

Thats gotta be a first!
Your training is almost complete.

[ChrisTheCop]

George Hamilton, really?

[PapaBear]

George Hamilton, really?
Wow. I never even thought about that. I just looked him up, and the last (non TV) gig he had was 9 years before in Zorro: The Gay Blade. There had to be a favor owed by someone.

[conman823]

Along with what else was stated, I felt the plot was a little far fetched. My friends and I goof on it as "The one where Micheal trys to be pope.". Also why the incest story line? What purpose did it serve? Pacino stayed true to the character, but he was surrounded by insane plots and characters. Garcia was awful, Sofia well nothing good can even be said. Connie was a little fuckin out there from her original character too. She went from "Sonny no it was my fault I got beat" to ordering hits on people WHILE THE DON WAS STILL ALIVE. And last I checked she was Vitos daughter not some Street Boss with any authority in the family.
And then there was the whole helicopter mass murder that makes me think Delta Force (Cool theme and all) was going to rip cord down and start taking people out with knives.

[ChrisTheCop]

Wow. I never even thought about that. I just looked him up, and the last (non TV) gig he had was 9 years before in Zorro: The Gay Blade. There had to be a favor owed by someone.

Which, btw, he was great in. That, and Love At First Bite are his 2 best works.

[PapaBear]

Along with what else was stated, I felt the plot was a little far fetched. My friends and I goof on it as "The one where Micheal trys to be pope.".
I never saw it as him trying to be the Pope. I just thought Puzo was just trying to mirror real life concepts as he did in the original. I saw it as being a "loosely based on" thing with the conspiracy theories that surrounded the death of John Paul I, and he just didn't do as good a job as he had in his past writings.

Which, btw, he was great in. That, and Love At First Bite are his 2 best works.

Damn. I remember LOVING "Love at First Bite" when I saw it in the theater. I can't remember the movie at all, but I think it was a movie that had a sexy chick that fed my adolescent hormones. I must watch it again sometime.

[Slumbag]

It's hard to follow Part 2.
(good thing Part 1 came first).

My main problem with 3 is the acting; Sophia is godawful, and Garcia does his worst acting Ive ever seen. I'll agree the operatic climax is a masterpiece, and I actually love the way Pacino played it...but one scene just cant save the entire flick.

That X10. She was absolutely terrible. Even the fruity Opera son played his part well. The scene with her and Andy Garcia and the kitchen was passionless and terrible (you know, for a scene about "forbidden love"). Do agree, the ending was great. And the scene where the killed Joey ZaZa at the church bazarre was pretty nice.

[keithy_19]

...but I keep trying to be good.

I found a water painting I did when I was young, and it wasn't half bad. I was watching a documentary called 'The Art of Failure', and it was about the painter Chuck Connelly who's artwork had been used in the movie New York Stories. Nick Nolte's character was based on Chuck.

Anyway, I loved his art work. A fellow artist who was commentating on Chuck said that he was Van Gogh reincarnated. It's true, with the way he blends paint and piles it onto the canvas. The texture is beautiful. Here's one of his paintings

http://www.dfngallery.com/images/connelly_stairs_457.gif


I just got the urge to start painting and trying to express myself with another vehicle besides written word and music. So I went down to my basement with a blank canvas, a set of oil paints, some brushes and went to work. I started off by painting (or trying to paint) a picture that I took while I was in Ireland. The picture is of a cemetary, with a cross in the foreground and another grave, a wall, and the rolling hills of Ireland in the background. I failed terrible. Everything is awful about it. I gave up rather quickly.

About an hour later, while looking through a photo album of the pictures I had taken while in Ireland, I found a picture of the sky. Just clouds and blue. I decided to head back to my basement and give it another go. I got myself a fresh canvas and went to work. I failed again.

But this time I finished. It's a terrible painting, with different hues of blue and shades of white and grey interwine with each other, without reason. But, I finished it and I guess that's the point

[PapaBear]

I guess that's the point
:unsure:
Nice post, though.

[hedges]

think the ending is absolutely brilliant. The contrast of the scene where Michael dies at the end versus the scene where Vito dies in the first movie brings the whole thing full circle, and tells you everything you need to know about how Vito ran his family versus how Michael did, which plays off the interweaving of the stories in the second moviie.
Michael tries to go completely legit with the help of the Vatican. I think many people saw this as a flaw in the storyline. It is very interesting. But I'm not sure everyone bought it.

[A.J.]

(Andy Garcia was badly miscast)

Garcia does his worst acting Ive ever seen.

Garcia was awful

Really? The Vincent Mancini character was one of the few things I liked about this movie.

Sofia Coppolla sucked as an actress but she was fun to look at.

[donnie_darko]

the fact that you could watch one and two and not come to the same conclusion frightens me.

[K.C.]

People bash Sofia Coppola and that's all fine. But I will say I'm more ok with her in the role she was in than Andy Garcia in the role he was in.

I do think it's kind of shitty they didn't spring a little extra cash to bring Duvall back as Tom Hagen.

They wrote him out the same way they wrote out Clemenza in Godfather II (although Frank Pantangelli actually ended up being a better character than old Clemenza (not Bruno Kirby Clemenza, though).


I think my main point, though, was that people make it out to be one of the worst atrocities ever. I don't really know what route you could have gone story wise, or character wise, that would have made it better.

They could have cast the movie better, absolutely.

But the whole point of Puzo's story is to draw the contrast between Vito and Michael and how the balance between family and power. In that respect, I think it accomplishes that.

[Caseyelan]

the only thing I like about godfather III, is when Silera is in the crowd/festival scene.

[foodcourtdruide]

I thought the acting wasn't up to par with the other films, as It centered around a much weaker cast.

Robert De Niro / Robert Duvall / Marlon Brando / James Caan

vs

Sofia Coppola / Andy Garcia / Joe Montagna

Also, I agree with what most have said that the plot became a bit far fetched. Connie was a disaster in 1 and 2 and suddenly she's making orders? It really didn't make sense.

I really just think all around the first two were just better films. My favorite is 2. De Niro's performance in that film is my favorite acting performance ever.

[K.C.]

I thought the acting wasn't up to par with the other films, as It centered around a much weaker cast.

Robert De Niro / Robert Duvall / Marlon Brando / James Caan

vs

Sofia Coppola / Andy Garcia / Joe Montagna

Also, I agree with what most have said that the plot became a bit far fetched. Connie was a disaster in 1 and 2 and suddenly she's making orders? It really didn't make sense.

I really just think all around the first two were just better films. My favorite is 2. De Niro's performance in that film is my favorite acting performance ever.


The Connie thing is weird. But she says something at the end of Godfather II that sets it up. Still, I hate Adrian and her awful acting. I have expected to hear a 'Rockyyyyyyyyyyyy!' randomly thrown in.


I love the addition of Joe Mantanga, though. I thought Joey Zasa was a nice character they tacked on.

If there's three big casting mistakes in this film, it's these:
1) Andy Garcia as Vinnie (already been discussed, but I'll just add, that when I watch it, it's like Coppola showed him clips of James Caan playing Sonny and said 'Act like him' and Andy didn't a horrible impression of him).

2) George Hamilton instead of bringing back Robert Duvall (I don't know what the story of why they didn't bring back Duvall was, whether he wanted too much money or just didn't want to do it).

3) Sofia Coppola.


That said, it's Pacino's film all the way, and I don't think it deserves that absolute Rocky V-like bashing it gets.

It's NOT as good as the first two.

But it's not horrible.

[foodcourtdruide]

The Connie thing is weird. But she says something at the end of Godfather II that sets it up. Still, I hate Adrian and her awful acting. I have expected to hear a 'Rockyyyyyyyyyyyy!' randomly thrown in.


I love the addition of Joe Mantanga, though. I thought Joey Zasa was a nice character they tacked on.

If there's three big casting mistakes in this film, it's these:
1) Andy Garcia as Vinnie (already been discussed, but I'll just add, that when I watch it, it's like Coppola showed him clips of James Caan playing Sonny and said 'Act like him' and Andy didn't a horrible impression of him).

2) George Hamilton instead of bringing back Robert Duvall (I don't know what the story of why they didn't bring back Duvall was, whether he wanted too much money or just didn't want to do it).

3) Sofia Coppola.


That said, it's Pacino's film all the way, and I don't think it deserves that absolute Rocky V-like bashing it gets.

It's NOT as good as the first two.

But it's not horrible.

I agree with most of what you say. Who do you think would have been a better fit for Vinnie? I think Sean Penn could have had a role in the film (though, obviously his name wouldn't have been Vinnie).

[KnoxHarrington]

This is going to sound like a weird comparison, but my problem with Godfather III is very similiar to my problem with the two Matrix sequels: Godfather III has this completely self-conscious notion of itself being "art" I & II don't. That is, it isn't just the story of this mob family I & II are; it takes in all the mythologizing and praise that came from the first two and tries too hard to live up to the level of those two, which is impossible. I am of the opinion you can't intentionally make a great work of art; "greatness" is judged over time, and is largely beyond your control. If you try too hard, it comes off as fake and mockable.

So that's what happened. Going in, they thought they have to make a continuation of this transcendent American masterpiece, and they just tried too hard. And it fails.

[foodcourtdruide]

This is going to sound like a weird comparison, but my problem with Godfather III is very similiar to my problem with the two Matrix sequels: Godfather III has this completely self-conscious notion of itself being "art" I & II don't. That is, it isn't just the story of this mob family I & II are; it takes in all the mythologizing and praise that came from the first two and tries too hard to live up to the level of those two, which is impossible. I am of the opinion you can't intentionally make a great work of art; "greatness" is judged over time, and is largely beyond your control. If you try too hard, it comes off as fake and mockable.

So that's what happened. Going in, they thought they have to make a continuation of this transcendent American masterpiece, and they just tried too hard. And it fails.

I don't know if I agree. I think There Will Be Blood tried very hard to be an American Masterpiece and completely pulled it off.

[K.C.]

I agree with most of what you say. Who do you think would have been a better fit for Vinnie? I think Sean Penn could have had a role in the film (though, obviously his name wouldn't have been Vinnie).

Good question, that's a little difficult to answer, because you have to think back to 1990 and who would have been around, or able to play a guy in his mid-20s at that point.

My initial response would have been Leo DiCaprio, but he was still in his teens, so that would have been impossible.


Thinking about it, Tim Roth would be my answer. I think he could have pulled it off much better than Andy Garcia.

Interestingly enough, Coppola looked at Julia Roberts (who couldn't do it), Madonna (who he turned down saying she was too old), or Winona Ryder (who actually cast, but backed out at the last minute) as Michael's daughter. He ended up with Sofia.

[foodcourtdruide]

Good question, that's a little difficult to answer, because you have to think back to 1990 and who would have been around, or able to play a guy in his mid-20s at that point.

My initial response would have been Leo DiCaprio, but he was still in his teens, so that would have been impossible.


Thinking about it, Tim Roth would be my answer. I think he could have pulled it off much better than Andy Garcia.

Interestingly enough, Coppola looked at Julia Roberts (who couldn't do it), Madonna (who he turned down saying she was too old), or Winona Ryder (who actually cast, but backed out at the last minute) as Michael's daughter. He ended up with Sofia.

How about Gary Oldman? Tim Roth would have been interesting.

I think Winona Rider would have been a much better fit.

[K.C.]

How about Gary Oldman? Tim Roth would have been interesting.


Yeah, I could see that. Oldman would have been a better choice than Garcia.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

MARLON BRANDO SHOULD HAVE BEEN ANDY GARCIA'S CHARACTER DUHRRR


actually. The original story was supposed to be about Tom Hagen splitting from Michael and creating a rift in the family resulting in some kind of conflict (yes, I know theoretical stuff is always vague). Duvall didn't want to have anything to do with Godfather III however, so the writers had to improvize and the dreck you see on screen is the result. They invented Andy Garcia's character to vill the void left by Hagen. It probably would have sucked anyway.

[K.C.]

actually. The original story was supposed to be about Tom Hagen splitting from Michael and creating a rift in the family resulting in some kind of conflict (yes, I know theoretical stuff is always vague). Duvall didn't want to have anything to do with Godfather III however, so the writers had to improvize and the dreck you see on screen is the result. They invented Andy Garcia's character to vill the void left by Hagen. It probably would have sucked anyway.

I never heard that.

Duvall said on Inside the Actor's Studio one time that he wanted to do Godfather III but wanted to paid as a star, similar to Pacino and they low-balled him so he felt insulted and wouldn't do it.

They replaced Hagen with the guy played by George Hamilton.

As far as I know, the Andy Garcia character was always suppose to be in the movie. It may have taken on a bigger role, because the George Hamilton role was pretty diminished from what Hagen probably would have been, but I don't think Garcia essentially was suppose to replace Duvall.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

Hey! I looked it up on Wikipedia, maaan. Wikipedia's never wrong. right? :unsure:

[ChrisTheCop]

There ya go. Winona Ryder and Christian Slater couldve saved this mess.

[BokeATong]

I didn't think it was that bad, but, most of the movie is in a court room... boring

[ScottFromGA]

Godfather 3 has so much hate?

never understood why people like all of them myself.....

[foodcourtdruide]

Godfather 3 has so much hate?

never understood why people like all of them myself.....

You don't understand why people like Godfather 1 and 2?