Alan Moore's "The Killing Joke" - no good?

[TheMojoPin]

TKJ has taken on a life of its own in the 20 or so years it's been around, and has generally been accepted as the Joker's origin story, plus the fate of Barbara Gordon has been adapted as canon into the DC Universe.

That said, having re-read it in the wake of TDK, I can see why Moore himself has dismissed the story over the years as a misstep by him.

The Joker "works" infinitely better as you see him in the film...basically a force of chaos and nihilism coming out of nowhere. Any attempts to explain somone THAT crazy would be anti-climactic and ultimately a cop out. With the comics, that was essentially the same deal...you knew nothing about the Joker before he was the Joker except for the hints he was a shlubby villain called the Red Hood who took a dive into a vat of chemicals. You didn't know anything about the man or who he was before he was the Joker...and it worked.

Reading TKJ, it really deflates the character, especially in the face of what he's doing as the Joker in those same pages! The origin story just doesn't jive at all in that it essentially presents the character sympathetically as we see him murdering, shooting and torturing innoncent people (nevermind that it could easily be interpreted as if the Joker could very likely sexually assaulted Barbara Gordon on top of shooting and paralyzing her, something Moore has also regreted since and I never really assumed, but plenty of people seem to think that happened, and the story can easily be taken that way). The overall idea that "anyone can be pushed over the edge by one bad day" is far too childish and simplistic for a character like this, and I can see why Moore has criticized his own story since then for being just that.

Moore has since said that the origin story should be taken with a grain of salt since we're essentially seeing it from the Joker's persepctive, and his mind would obviously distort who he is to prop himself up. This makes sense, because if it's supposed to be the "real" story of the Joker, it completely fails because it attempts to justify who he is and what he does.

[EliSnow]

TKJ has taken on a life of its own in the 20 or so years it's been around, and has generally been accepted as the Joker's origin story, plus the fate of Barbara Gordon has been adapted as canon into the DC Universe.

That said, having re-read it in the wake of TDK, I can see why Moore himself has dismissed the story over the years as a misstep by him.

The Joker "works" infinitely better as you see him in the film...basically a force of chaos and nihilism coming out of nowhere. Any attempts to explain somone THAT crazy would be anti-climactic and ultimately a cop out. With the comics, that was essentially the same deal...you knew nothing about the Joker before he was the Joker except for the hints he was a shlubby villain called the Red Hood who took a dive into a vat of chemicals. You didn't know anything about the man or who he was before he was the Joker...and it worked.

Reading TKJ, it really deflates the character, especially in the face of what he's doing as the Joker in those same pages! The origin story just doesn't jive at all in that it essentially presents the character sympathetically as we see him murdering, shooting and torturing innoncent people (nevermind that it could easily be interpreted as if the Joker could very likely sexually assaulted Barbara Gordon on top of shooting and paralyzing her, something Moore has also regreted since and I never really assumed, but plenty of people seem to think that happened, and the story can easily be taken that way). The overall idea that "anyone can be pushed over the edge by one bad day" is far too childish and simplistic for a character like this, and I can see why Moore has criticized his own story since then for being just that.

Moore has since said that the origin story should be taken with a grain of salt since we're essentially seeing it from the Joker's persepctive, and his mind would obviously distort who he is to prop himself up. This makes sense, because if it's supposed to be the "real" story of the Joker, it completely fails because it attempts to justify who he is and what he does.

DC itself has moved away from the Killing Joke in a number of ways, but most importantly by suggesting that, like in the movie The Dark Knight, the Joker in the Killing Joke is making up a story about how he became the Joker, and it's one of many that he has told.

[Sheeplovr]

Batman confidentail had a excellent joker thing

i caint wait for that story to be collected

[Aqualad]

Didn't the Joker say at some point that if he has to have an origin he'd prefer it be multiple choice? In the Countdown backup about the Joker they gave three possible origins, if i recall correctly.

[EliSnow]

Didn't the Joker say at some point that if he has to have an origin he'd prefer it be multiple choice? In the Countdown backup about the Joker they gave three possible origins, if i recall correctly.



That's one of the examples of how DC has moved away from The Killing Joke.

[badorties]

as a casual reader, i loved it

i'm not too concerned by cannon, and the real specifics of the DC universe ... i usualy just read the collected trade books, or specific (almost contained) storylines

[djjd]

don't really care what moore or the critics say, loved the story and always will

[donnie_darko]

people actually take the killing joke as the official origin? who are these people? seriously, origins and the motivation of characters change from series to series, i think alan moore is taking himself a bit too serious.

[Freakshow]

My dog has no nose.
Then how does he smell?
Awful.

[realmenhatelife]

I enjoy TKJ, I think it's too short to be listed among Moores really great work though. The Joker does say he's constantly rewriting his own origin, so even though the Red Hood origin is presented to you, you don't have to believe it.

To me, the best part of TKJ is Batman's need to pull the Joker over to rehabilitation because he's afraid the Joker will pull him over to psychosis first.

Plot wise it's a flat story- but I like the ideas in it. It's not something you'd reread regularly though.

You also have to consider that Alan Moore isn't going to say anything that helps DC sell books.

[TheMojoPin]

I enjoy TKJ, I think it's too short to be listed among Moores really great work though. The Joker does say he's constantly rewriting his own origin, so even though the Red Hood origin is presented to you, you don't have to believe it.

To me, the best part of TKJ is Batman's need to pull the Joker over to rehabilitation because he's afraid the Joker will pull him over to psychosis first.

Plot wise it's a flat story- but I like the ideas in it. It's not something you'd reread regularly though.

You also have to consider that Alan Moore isn't going to say anything that helps DC sell books.

I like the "present day" stuff in the story, but looking at TDK on its own, wih the origin presented as it is, it fails. It contrasts too sharply with the horror we see by painting the Joker as sympathetic. The whole "one bad day can push you over the edge" thinking is just incredibly cheesy and too simple. Forget all of the re-writing and chnages and excuses that have come since...the story on its own falls apart.

[IMSlacker]

Alan Moore needs to stop living in the 80's.

[Recyclerz]

I enjoyed "Love Like Blood" and "Eighties" but thought they were a little inconsistent overall.

<rimshot>


<crickets>


edit: I notice this thread after it's up for a month and IMSlacker beats me to the joke by two minutes. Damn you Slacker!

[Sinestro]

Birds of Prey DVD is out.

[JustJon]

Birds of Prey DVD is out.

That's not a good thing, Homer.

[realmenhatelife]

I like the "present day" stuff in the story, but looking at TDK on its own, wih the origin presented as it is, it fails. It contrasts too sharply with the horror we see by painting the Joker as sympathetic. The whole "one bad day can push you over the edge" thinking is just incredibly cheesy and too simple. Forget all of the re-writing and chnages and excuses that have come since...the story on its own falls apart.

See, when I read it I dont really feel sympathy for the joker in his origin. The story itself definately isn't landmark, I don't think it's shit. I also maybe feel a little more ambivilance to Batman in the story- I like the question of whether or not Batman is really different from the Joker.

[TheMojoPin]

See, when I read it I dont really feel sympathy for the joker in his origin. The story itself definately isn't landmark, I don't think it's shit. I also maybe feel a little more ambivilance to Batman in the story- I like the question of whether or not Batman is really different from the Joker.

But I don't buy that for a second. Various writers have loved to toss that out there, and TDK does, too, but I just don't see it at all. Yes, they're both damaged individuals who dress funny...but that's it. It aways strikes me as lazy to try and paint them as variations of each other when that really doesn't hold up at all given how differen the characters are overall.

Honestly, I joke about it, but sexual anger/confusion/lust is what ultimately drives most superhero comics out there, and that isn't more explicit than it is with the Joker and Batman. People can dance around it all they want, but it's a relationship fueled by homoerotic confusion and revulsion. I think both characters hate the fact that the closest thing they have to an actual long lasting relationship is with someone who so disgusts them, yet they are continually attracted to intimately confront and challenge. Hell, you even have the Joker killing and crippling the "rivals" to Batman's attention and "affection" in Jason Todd and Barbara Gordon and constantly going off on people who dare to try and take Batman from him (Hello "Mad Love," where he almost beats Harley Quinn to death for nearly killing Batman, hugely symbolic on a variety of levels).

Yeah, someone's just gonna say I look too far into this, but really, I'm not...it's all right there on the surface. Superhero comics are about men loving or obsessed with or desiring other men. Nine times out of ten women are just there to be villains, victims or ridiculous sexual creations that practically rape the male characters to distract them from the other men.

[booster11373]

But I don't buy that for a second. Various writers have loved to toss that out there, and TDK does, too, but I just don't see it at all. Yes, they're both damaged individuals who dress funny...but that's it. It aways strikes me as lazy to try and paint them as variations of each other when that really doesn't hold up at all given how differen the characters are overall.

Honestly, I joke about it, but sexual anger/confusion/lust is what ultimately drives most superhero comics out there, and that isn't more explicit than it is with the Joker and Batman. People can dance around it all they want, but it's a relationship fueled by homoerotic confusion and revulsion. I think both characters hate the fact that the closest thing they have to an actual long lasting relationship is with someone who so disgusts them, yet they are continually attracted to intimately confront and challenge. Hell, you even have the Joker killing and crippling the "rivals" to Batman's attention and "affection" in Jason Todd and Barbara Gordon and constantly going off on people who dare to try and take Batman from him (Hello "Mad Love," where he almost beats Harley Quinn to death for nearly killing Batman, hugely symbolic on a variety of levels).

Yeah, someone's just gonna say I look too far into this, but really, I'm not...it's all right there on the surface. Superhero comics are about men loving or obsessed with or desiring other men. Nine times out of ten women are just there to be villains, victims or ridiculous sexual creations that practically rape the male characters to distract them from the other men.

I alwyas thought comics were about good guys versus bad guys You've just blown my mind man!!!

[Aqualad]

Honestly, I joke about it, but sexual anger/confusion/lust is what ultimately drives most superhero comics out there, and that isn't more explicit than it is with the Joker and Batman. People can dance around it all they want, but it's a relationship fueled by homoerotic confusion and revulsion. I think both characters hate the fact that the closest thing they have to an actual long lasting relationship is with someone who so disgusts them, yet they are continually attracted to intimately confront and challenge. Hell, you even have the Joker killing and crippling the "rivals" to Batman's attention and "affection" in Jason Todd and Barbara Gordon and constantly going off on people who dare to try and take Batman from him (Hello "Mad Love," where he almost beats Harley Quinn to death for nearly killing Batman, hugely symbolic on a variety of levels).

Yeah, someone's just gonna say I look too far into this, but really, I'm not...it's all right there on the surface. Superhero comics are about men loving or obsessed with or desiring other men. Nine times out of ten women are just there to be villains, victims or ridiculous sexual creations that practically rape the male characters to distract them from the other men.

Next thing you're going to tell me that Batman and Robin have some sort of gay relationship.

[TheMojoPin]

Next thing you're going to tell me that Batman and Robin have some sort of gay relationship.

It's not that base...usually. I'm not talking about these characters as being "OMG, WE'RE GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!!!" as people generally stereotype these days. It's more in the classical ancient Greek sense, where males were much closer and that's just how it was. Friends, mentors, students, partners, lovers, whatever...it just sort of naturally happened. Superhero comics tend to reflect that, for whatever reasons, and I think that's why women come across as so threatening or oversexualized in those worlds. They really are about men loving being around other men and being as "manly" and physical as possible. Go figure.

[Captain Rooster]

I loved TKJ as a kid ... the scene where he comes to the door and blows Gordon's daughter away was shocking.


I think the brutal attack on Robin from "A Death in the Family" was remade in the movie ... when Joker attacks Batman with the crowbar ... AWESOME scene.