Curt Schiling

[TeeBone]

Should Curt Schiling go to the HALL OF FAME?

[King Hippos Bandaid]

with the 2 WS Rings.....

I say Why Not


Who are you to doubt me.........

[Ritalin]

don't be absurd.

[Towelie]

No Cy Youngs, only 216 wins

I'd say no.

But his playoff record probably pushes him in, especially with that nonsense bloody sock shit.

We'll see if his years of being an epic douche will hurt.

Either way, not seeing this guy in baseball is probably the best thing that could have happened to the sport.

He'll have a lot of time to blog now.

[ibanez23]

with the 2 WS Rings.....

I say Why Not


Who are you to doubt me.........

He has 3 rings....Not to doubt you or anything.

[underdog]

If he wasn't lights out in the post season, it wouldn't be a discussion. But because of it, he'll probably get in.

[razorboy]

Hall of cry-baby blowhards? Yes.
Hall of Fame? No.

[ChrisTheCop]

I predict that he is saying not just season ending but career ending
so that when he comes back itll be another chapter in his amazing story.

And he WILL be in the Hall of Fame, I'd bet my reparation money on it.

[Hamey]

I'm extremely picky with the hall.. I think you have to be a "legend" to go. I mean: Don Sutton, Bill Mazeroski, please.

[spoon]

Classic fringe guy who doesn't have all the pieces, but surely some good stats in key spots. For me it would have to come down to the other candidates at the time. One thing is for sure, he's not a first ballot, but I'm pretty sure he'll get in.

[Towelie]

10-2 in 19 career playoff starts
2.23 ERA
3 World Series Rings (2.06 ERA in the World Series)

This will push him in, even though his career is similar to:

1. Kevin Brown (920)
2. Bob Welch (900)
3. Orel Hershiser (889)
4. Mike Mussina (888)
5. Freddie Fitzsimmons (884)
6. John Smoltz (880)
7. Milt Pappas (880)
8. Don Drysdale (875) *
9. Dazzy Vance (873) *
10. Jim Perry (871)

[jonyrotn]

don't be absurd.
Since you were nice enough to take the words out of my mouth, how about taken your cock out of my ass..
You fuckin knew I was gonna say "don't be absurd", that line oozes jonyrotn..
Whatever dude, you fucked me a good one, again..JK..
That being said, I voted NO..And that's coming from a gimongous (insert short joke here)
Curt Schilling fan..

Yes, I know.. Yankees, Game 6, 2004, ALCS, bloody sanitary, the whole thing..But??
If winning big post season games is enough to get you up and into the HOF, then punch Beckett's card right now, cause NOBODY in history IMO, has been more dominant in the post season..Period..

Don't forget all those years Schill languished in Philly.. He was in the league for like 15 years before he was anything more then a solid number 2, number 3 arm, with hard stuff and a split finger..
IMO, Shill got awesome when steroids got him awesome..Now him, the sox and the Nation are paying for it..His body is breaking down cause he can no longer cycle, same as like 50% of the major leagues..

I love the guy and I appreciate what he's done for The Nation, but the Hall Of Fame? Nah,bro..Not even close..Sorry..

Keep the hallowed halls of the Hall sacred..Mediocrity shouldn't be honored in that fashion..


EDIT: I want Jim Rice in theer so fucking bad..The writers are racist!

[jonyrotn]

with the 2 WS Rings.....

I say Why Not


Who are you to doubt me.........
3 brother..
Don't forget 2000 with the D-Backs, and The Big Unit..
That was fucking stupid, having to see those two back to back..

[cougarjake13]

3 brother..
Don't forget 2000 with the D-Backs, and The Big Unit..
That was fucking stupid, having to see those two back to back..

it was 2001

[drjoek]

If they have a Hall of Fame for fat loudmouth assholes he'd be a first ballot maybe even unanimous.
Baseball hall of Fame he's borderline

[Snoogans]

I voted no. I just dont think he had enough big time standout years like pedro and RJ and Maddox and all them had. Just cant do it

[TheMojoPin]

No.

Very solid pitcher, stepped up in some huge spots, but his key career numbers simply aren't that remarkable.

That said, based on the guys probably retiring, the HOF ballot from this year and next year is going to be insane.

[epo]

Actually I'm gonna give some props to Jim Rome of all people:

"It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good".

Curt Schilling's career was very good, not of fame.

[sailor]

i'd vote no, but was surprised his black ink, gray ink and other HOF indicators were pretty favorable. i think there's a very good change he'll get in at some point.

[OGC]

I'm a big Red Sox fan and a big Schilling fan (although I wish he would shut his mouth more often).

That being said, I don't think he should be in the Hall of Fame. His numbers just aren't good enough.

[King Hippos Bandaid]

I Suck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Who can forget Curt Schilling helping the D Backs in 2001

when the Yankees failed to bring up NYC's spirits up after 9/11

[Earlshog]

Since you were nice enough to take the words out of my mouth, how about taken your cock out of my ass..
You fuckin knew I was gonna say "don't be absurd", that line oozes jonyrotn..
Whatever dude, you fucked me a good one, again..JK..
That being said, I voted NO..And that's coming from a gimongous (insert short joke here)
Curt Schilling fan..

Yes, I know.. Yankees, Game 6, 2004, ALCS, bloody sanitary, the whole thing..But??
If winning big post season games is enough to get you up and into the HOF, then punch Beckett's card right now, cause NOBODY in history IMO, has been more dominant in the post season..Period..

Don't forget all those years Schill languished in Philly.. He was in the league for like 15 years before he was anything more then a solid number 2, number 3 arm, with hard stuff and a split finger..
IMO, Shill got awesome when steroids got him awesome..Now him, the sox and the Nation are paying for it..His body is breaking down cause he can no longer cycle, same as like 50% of the major leagues..

I love the guy and I appreciate what he's done for The Nation, but the Hall Of Fame? Nah,bro..Not even close..Sorry..

Keep the hallowed halls of the Hall sacred..Mediocrity shouldn't be honored in that fashion..


EDIT: I want Jim Rice in theer so fucking bad..The writers are racist!

He was 25 when he lead the Phillies to a NL Pennant over the Braves (who were the best team in baseball that year) and to a world series they would have won had it not been for, well, I still can't say his name. If you are gonna penalize a pitcher for getting knocked around when they're 23 you would not be able to fill out a five man rotation in the Hall.

Not unlike Steve Carlton he pitched for terrible teams from 1995 to 2000.

Averaged nearly a K per inning for his career.

Top 5 in compete games 10 times shutouts 9.

The aforementioned stellar postseason stats, 3 rings. Was as money a player in the postseason as any player in his generation.

If you have a post-season game you have to win during this generation you are taking Curt Shilling over the Rocket and Maddux.

He should be a hall of famer first ballot no question. If he will be is a different story.

[Towelie]

I don't think he gets in with the 2013 class

Biggio, Bonds, Clemens and Piazza are up with that class, and they have much greater resumes then Curt does.

Funny how Piazza and Clemens might go in the same class

[Epschtein]

Funny how Piazza and Clemens might go in the same class

you are joking right?

[Towelie]

It depends on how much Clemens destroyed his legacy with the voters in the last year or so.

Piazza is a lock for sure, Clemens candidacy will be interesting.

He'll be in, but they many not want to give him the honor of being a first ballot HOFer

[Epschtein]

yeah, i suppose its possible things could change but right now i see it as a virtual certainity they wont give him first ballot.

agree on piaza of course.

you can make a decent case on certain statistics + postseason for schilling, but overall i think he falls a little short.

[Holes]

10-2 in 19 career playoff starts
2.23 ERA
3 World Series Rings (2.06 ERA in the World Series)

This will push him in, even though his career is similar to:

1. Kevin Brown (920)
2. Bob Welch (900)
3. Orel Hershiser (889)
4. Mike Mussina (888)
5. Freddie Fitzsimmons (884)
6. John Smoltz (880)
7. Milt Pappas (880)
8. Don Drysdale (875) *
9. Dazzy Vance (873) *
10. Jim Perry (871)

For me, Smoltz is the best, most versatile pitcher on that list.

[sailor]

For me, Smoltz is the best, most versatile pitcher on that list.

yeah, drysdale was a hack.

[Towelie]

yeah, drysdale was a hack.

I think he meant that Smoltz was the only guy on that list who is a proven ace starter and a dominant closer.

Hence the word "versatile"

[K.C.]

Absolutely no way Schilling should get in, and if he pitched in Milwaukee and Kansas City his entire career, it wouldn't even be a discussion.

But I think he will.


On a personal level, I hope he does if for no other reason than my autographed '93 World Series ball by him will go up ten-fold in value.

[Kit the Eskimo]

Curt doesn't have the career numbers, he shouldn't be allowed in. And if you try to base it on postseason numbers.....then sign El Duque up for the Hall while you're at it.

The Hall is already a joke for not having Pete Rose in there. I don't care if you don't like Roger Clemens on a personal level...saying he shouldn't go first ballot is just stupid

[K.C.]

The Hall is already a joke for not having Pete Rose in there.

QFT!

[Holes]

yeah, drysdale was a hack.

I am not saying that Drysdale was not a great pitcher. When they were on, he and Koufax were as dominant a 1-2 as there was.

As was stated, Smoltz is the most versatile pitcher on that list. Check out his starting numbers and his numbers as a closer. Only one ever to have those kind of numbers.

[razorboy]

The Hall is already a joke for not having Pete Rose in there.

...and Lou Whitaker, Andre Dawson, Alan Trammell, Lee Smith, Jim Rice, etc., etc.

[sailor]

I am not saying that Drysdale was not a great pitcher. When they were on, he and Koufax were as dominant a 1-2 as there was.

As was stated, Smoltz is the most versatile pitcher on that list. Check out his starting numbers and his numbers as a closer. Only one ever to have those kind of numbers.

smoltz 210 wins - 154 saves

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/dennis-eckersley-1.jpg

197 wins - 390 saves

and i know he wasn't on that list. just sayin'

[Towelie]

Curt doesn't have the career numbers, he shouldn't be allowed in. And if you try to base it on postseason numbers.....then sign El Duque up for the Hall while you're at it.

The Hall is already a joke for not having Pete Rose in there. I don't care if you don't like Roger Clemens on a personal level...saying he shouldn't go first ballot is just stupid

Based on numbers alone, Clemens of course is a first ballot HOFer.

However the idea that he cheated in the later stages of his career to help those numbers will more then likely push him off the ballot.

He'll get in, as will Bonds, while you might not be able to say the same for Mark McGwire, Raffy Palmerio, Sammy Sosa and the likes.

[sailor]

Based on numbers alone, Clemens of course is a first ballot HOFer.

However the idea that he cheated in the later stages of his career to help those numbers will more then likely push him off the ballot.

He'll get in, as will Bonds, while you might not be able to say the same for Mark McGwire, Raffy Palmerio, Sammy Sosa and the likes.

post-season lack off success aside, clemens was the dominant pitcher of this generation (arguably the best ever). i would be shocked if he doesn't get in first ballot, especially as the people voting will know he's not the only one taking whatever drugs.

[Towelie]

post-season lack off success aside, clemens was the dominant pitcher of this generation (arguably the best ever). i would be shocked if he doesn't get in first ballot, especially as the people voting will know he's not the only one taking whatever drugs.

Pedro is the greatest pitcher of this era.

Nearly a .700 winning percentage (3rd best of all time, best active (min 100 decisions))
Lowest ERA of any active pitcher
The best ERA+ of any pitcher in history
3rd lowest WHIP in history (best active)
3rd best K/9 IP in history

And he did it clean.

If you want to look at 1998-2003, the years the ball was insanely juiced and the players were insanely juiced you get ERA's of 2.89, 2.07, 1.74, 2.39, 2.26 and 2.22.

And he did in the AL with the DH.

[K.C.]

From '97 to '05 (excluding missing half of 2001, and 2004 where his numbers were solid, but not great), Pedro was arguably the best pitcher on the planet.

That's seven and a half seasons of pretty much pure dominance.



If someone wants to argue for Clemens, you argue on longevity.

Clemens pitched in the American League for 20 seasons...he threw over 200 innings in 15 seasons (including over 250 in six season, topping out at 281.7 in 1987).

He won over 350 games, including over 20 per season six different times, and finished with a 3.12 ERA career ERA, in a stretch that spanned the ENTIRE steroid era. He won 66% of his decisions over a 24 year span, witha 1.16 WHIP, and with over 4900 IP and over 4600 Ks.


That said, Clemens never had a stretch like the seven and a half years Pedro did from 1997-2005.

The question then becomes do those seven and a half years trump the 20+ years of stability and periods of greatness Clemens put out there?


The steroid cloud over Clemens' head, obviously, casts some doubt on him in general.


That said, though, I'd be more inclined to say Clemens is the pitcher of his generation, and Pedro is the Sandy Koufax of this generation. Ultimately, Pedro had a more impressive stretch, but didn't dominate for half as long as Clemens.


On interesting note, Baseball-Reference kind of has the same thing. Pedro compares most favorably to Sandy Koufax, among Modern era pitchers (Bob Caruthers doesn't count).

[jonyrotn]

I Suck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Who can forget Curt Schilling helping the D Backs in 2001

when the Yankees failed to bring up NYC's spirits up after 9/11

From '97 to '05 (excluding missing half of 2001, and 2004 where his numbers were solid, but not great), Pedro was arguably the best pitcher on the planet.

That's seven and a half seasons of pretty much pure dominance.



If someone wants to argue for Clemens, you argue on longevity.

Clemens pitched in the American League for 20 seasons...he threw over 200 innings in 15 seasons (including over 250 in six season, topping out at 281.7 in 1987).

He won over 350 games, including over 20 per season six different times, and finished with a 3.12 ERA career ERA, in a stretch that spanned the ENTIRE steroid era. He won 66% of his decisions over a 24 year span, witha 1.16 WHIP, and with over 4900 IP and over 4600 Ks.


That said, Clemens never had a stretch like the seven and a half years Pedro did from 1997-2005.

The question then becomes do those seven and a half years trump the 20+ years of stability and periods of greatness Clemens put out there?


The steroid cloud over Clemens head, obviously, casts some doubt on him in general.


That said, though, I'd be more inclined to say Clemens is the pitcher of his generation, and Pedro is the Sandy Koufax of this generation. Ultimately, Pedro had a more impressive stretch, didn't dominate for half as long as Clemens.QFT..I d othink Randy Johnson should be in the mix somewhere, but you nailed it with Clemens and Pedro..Both head and shoulders above Schilling..

[TheMojoPin]

...and Lou Whitaker, Andre Dawson, Alan Trammell, Lee Smith, Jim Rice, etc., etc.

Ron Santo.

Blame Joe Morgan.

[K.C.]

QFT..I d othink Randy Johnson should be in the mix somewhere, but you nailed it with Clemens and Pedro..Both head and shoulders above Schilling..

Clemens, Johnson, Maddux, and most likely Glavine are probably all locks just because they won 300 games (I'm assuming Johnson will get 12 more, but...yeesh...he's cutting it close...even if he doesn't, he's most likely still in) in an era where it's almost an impossibility now.

I'd say Pedro is close to a lock, although, there will be a little bit of grumbling from the baseball old-timers on the longevity factor, and only winning in the low 200s (although if Koufax got in, Pedro's in).


Schilling doesn't deserve it...but I get this feeling that he punched his ticket with 2004. I think there will be a big push out of Boston to get him in, and in the end he'll squeak by.

[K.C.]

These are the active MLB players who should be discussed in regards to being future HOFers.

-John Smoltz (ATL)
-Tom Glavine (ATL)
-Chipper Jones (ATL)
-Pedro Martinez (NYM)
-Albert Pujols (STL - still pretty early, but his first eight season are HOF worthy)
-Ken Griffey Jr. (CIN)
-Randy Johnson (ARI)
-Greg Maddux (SD)
-Trevor Hoffman (SD)
-Manny Ramirez (BOS)
-Curt Schilling (BOS)
-Alex Rodriguez (NYY)
-Derek Jeter (NYY) (likely to be one of the most controversial HOF debates ever)
-Mariano Rivera (NYY)
-Ivan Rodriguez (DET)
-Ichiro (SEA) (another one that's likely to be a very controversial HOF debate, although he probably needs two more substantially good seasons for people to start talking seriously about it).
-Frank Thomas (OAK)
-Vladimir Guerrero (ANA) (has a shot at 3000 hits, 500 HRs, and is a career .323 hitter as of right now)


And then these are the guys that are not quite in the discussion, but almost:

-Jim Thome (CHW) (he could come close to 600 HRs by his career's end, but his average has been taking a significant dip. He's at .280 for his career, but is hitting in the .220s this year and .207 a couple years ago).
-Todd Helton (COL) (he's got better numbers than people realize and he's a career .330 hitter, but he looks to be slowing down. Probably needs a couple more good years to really get in the discussion...then there's the whole Coors Field debate).
-Andruw Jones (LAD) (Was looking like a sure-fire HOFer for years, but has fallen off a cliff).
-Mike Mussina (NYY) (Probably needs to get 300 wins before getting seriously discussed).

[Snoogans]

[QUOTE=K.C.;1766392]These are the active MLB players who should be discussed in regards to being future HOFers.

-John Smoltz (ATL)
-Tom Glavine (ATL)
-Chipper Jones (ATL)
-Pedro Martinez (NYM)
-Albert Pujols (STL - still pretty early, but his first eight season are HOF worthy)
-Ken Griffey Jr. (CIN)
-Randy Johnson (ARI)
-Greg Maddux (SD)
-Trevor Hoffman (SD)
-Manny Ramirez (BOS)
-Curt Schilling (BOS)
-Alex Rodriguez (NYY)
-Derek Jeter (NYY) (likely to be one of the most controversial HOF debates ever)
-Mariano Rivera (NYY)
-Ivan Rodriguez (DET)
-Ichiro (SEA) (another one that's likely to be a very controversial HOF debate, although he probably needs two more substantially good seasons for people to start talking seriously about it).
-Frank Thomas (OAK)
-Vladimir Guerrero (ANA) (has a shot at 3000 hits, 500 HRs, and is a career .323 hitter as of right now)

Chipper Jones? Are you fuckin kidding? Chipper Jones shouldnt even be allowed to visit the Hallf of Fame

[K.C.]

Chipper Jones? Are you fuckin kidding? Chipper Jones shouldnt even be allowed to visit the Hallf of Fame

I've actually heard quite a few voters say they'd strongly consider him over the last couple years. I've never really looked into him extensively, so I don't know what to think.

But like it or not, he's in the discussion.

[razorboy]

These are the active MLB players who should be discussed in regards to being future HOFers.

-John Smoltz (ATL)first ballot
-Tom Glavine (ATL)yes
-Chipper Jones (ATL)yes
-Pedro Martinez (NYM)first ballot
-Albert Pujols (STL - still pretty early, but his first eight season are HOF worthy)not yet, but all but assured
-Ken Griffey Jr. (CIN)first ballot
-Randy Johnson (ARI)yes
-Greg Maddux (SD)yes
-Trevor Hoffman (SD)not until Lee Smith gets in
-Manny Ramirez (BOS)yes
-Curt Schilling (BOS)no
-Alex Rodriguez (NYY)yes
-Derek Jeter (NYY) (likely to be one of the most controversial HOF debates ever)not yet, although I'm sure the jock sniffing voters would find some excuse
-Mariano Rivera (NYY)yes
-Ivan Rodriguez (DET)first ballot
-Ichiro (SEA) (another one that's likely to be a very controversial HOF debate, although he probably needs two more substantially good seasons for people to start talking seriously about it). tough call, not yet
-Frank Thomas (OAK)yes
-Vladimir Guerrero (ANA) (has a shot at 3000 hits, 500 HRs, and is a career .323 hitter as of right now)He seems to be breaking down FAST. I'd be surprised.


And then these are the guys that are not quite in the discussion, but almost:

-Jim Thome (CHW) (he could come close to 600 HRs by his career's end, but his average has been taking a significant dip. He's at .280 for his career, but is hitting in the .220s this year and .207 a couple years ago).I think it will take a while
-Todd Helton (COL) (he's got better numbers than people realize and he's a career .330 hitter, but he looks to be slowing down. Probably needs a couple more good years to really get in the discussion...then there's the whole Coors Field debate). Not in my mind
-Andruw Jones (LAD) (Was looking like a sure-fire HOFer for years, but has fallen off a cliff). No
-Mike Mussina (NYY) (Probably needs to get 300 wins before getting seriously discussed).God no.

[Snoogans]

I've actually heard quite a few voters say they'd strongly consider him over the last couple years.

I just dont see it. I checked his stats, and while actually better then I thought, never once in my life have I ever even say I wonder if with him. I also don't compare guys from today to the guys already in teh hall at most of there positions. To me, Chipper never really dominated his era, and 402 HRs in todays baseball at 3rd base isnt gonna get it done. He doesnt even have the big post season history to make up for the lack of numbers

[Towelie]

Looking ahead at the next few classes, here are the guys who are "retired" that I believe are locks:

No new players in 2009

2010: Edgar Martinez

2011: Jeff Bagwell

No one ones in 2012

2013: Craig Biggio, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Mike Piazza

Maybes:

2010: Barry Larkin, Roberto Alomar
2011: Rafael Palmeiro, Larry Walker
2013: Sammy Sosa

Future Locks:

Greg Maddux
Tom Glavine
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mariano Rivera
John Smoltz
Alex Rodriguez
Ken Griffey Jr.
Ivan Rodriguez
Derek Jeter
Manny Ramirez
Frank Thomas
Chipper Jones
Ichiro
Jeff Kent
Omar Vizquel (Only on the fact that Ozzie got in)
Albert Pujols

Maybes:

Trevor Hoffman
John Franco
Billy Wagner
Todd Helton
Gary Sheffield
Jim Thome
Vlad Guerrero
Carlos Delgado
David Ortiz
Bobby Abreu

[Snoogans]

How is Chipper Jones a lock hall of famer? Seriously

[K.C.]

Looking at Chipper's numbers at a glance, I wouldn't put him in now.

But if he plays five more seasons (and it honestly wouldn't shock me if the Braves shift him to 1B if Teixeira leaves next season), he's got a shot at:
-3000 hits
-500 HRs

He's likely to finish his career hitting over .300, he's got a MVP, he's played in 92 playoff games, and been a part of a core that won 14 division titles, and has a World Series.

He's going to get support...He's probably a lock if he reaches 3000 hits and 500 HRs.

[Snoogans]

Looking ahead at the next few classes, here are the guys who are "retired" that I believe are locks:

No new players in 2009

2010: Edgar Martinez

2011: Jeff Bagwell

No one ones in 2012

2013: Craig Biggio, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Mike Piazza

Maybes:

2010: Barry Larkin, Roberto Alomar
2011: Rafael Palmeiro, Larry Walker
2013: Sammy Sosa

Future Locks:

Greg Maddux
Tom Glavine
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mariano Rivera
John Smoltz
Alex Rodriguez
Ken Griffey Jr.
Ivan Rodriguez
Derek Jeter
Manny Ramirez
Frank Thomas
Chipper Jones
Ichiro
Jeff Kent
Omar Vizquel (Only on the fact that Ozzie got in)
Albert Pujols

Maybes:

Trevor Hoffman
John Franco
Billy Wagner
Todd Helton
Gary Sheffield
Jim Thome
Vlad Guerrero
Carlos Delgado
David Ortiz
Bobby Abreu

Billy Wagner? I wouldn't put Billy Wagner on the all NY City team. And seriously, in the steroids era, 310 with 402 HRs for a 3B is not a lock HOF. Im sorry.

[Towelie]

Chipper is a lock.

Easily the 2nd best switch hitter of all time.

[Snoogans]

Looking at Chipper's numbers at a glance, I wouldn't put him in now.

But if he plays five more seasons (and it honestly wouldn't shock me if the Braves shift him to 1B if Teixeira leaves next season), he's got a shot at:
-3000 hits
-500 HRs

He's likely to finish his career hitting over .300, he's got an MVP, he's played in 92 playoff games, and been a part of a core that won 14 division titles, and has a World Series.

He's going to get support...especially if he reaches 3000 hits and 500 HRs.

he is already pretty old man. I am already suspicious of this big year from him anyway. I just dont see him playing anywhere near 5 more years.

[Snoogans]

Chipper is a lock.

Easily the 2nd best switch hitter of all time.

That doesnt make you a lock HOF to be better then guys who werent HOFers. And Chipper Jones is easily a better hitter then Eddie Murray? Dont agree

Edit: In fact, I dont even think Chipper Jones in the best switch hitter in baseball right now. I think Berkman is a better hitter

[K.C.]

Billy Wagner? I wouldn't put Billy Wagner on the all NY City team. And seriously, in the steroids era, 310 with 402 HRs for a 3B is not a lock HOF. Im sorry.

No way for Billy Wagner...I'd say Bobby Abreu isn't even near the discussion either, although he's one of the only guys who went 20/20 like eight straight season or something.

[razorboy]

Chipper is a lock.

Easily the 2nd best switch hitter of all time.

Hold up now. He's a hall of famer, but I ain't going to say he's better than Eddie Murray yet.

[K.C.]

he is already pretty old man. I am already suspicious of this big year from him anyway. I just dont see him playing anywhere near 5 more years.

They'll shift him to 1B to protect him if he stays in Atlanta.

I can see him getting five more.

[Snoogans]

Hold up now. He's a hall of famer, but I ain't going to say he's better than Eddie Murray yet.

Why is he a HOF. No one aside from KC, who doesnt have him as a lock, has backed up these statements with anything

[Snoogans]

They'll shift him to 1B to protect him if he stays in Atlanta.

I can see him getting five more.

He can barely stay healthy. They tried bouncing him around to 1b and the OF aready and it didnt keep him healthy. Ive watched more braves games then sox games in my life. Chipper was usually not even the best player on his team, and he never struck me as doing HOF stuff like the other active locks.

[Towelie]

If you're going to put in Hoffman, then you have to consider Wagner.

Right now, his HOF monitor is 104, 100 being the likey number for a HOFer.

[Snoogans]

If you're going to put in Hoffman, then you have to consider Wagner.

Right now, his HOF monitor is 104, 100 being the likey number for a HOFer.

Hoffman has the best closer numbers ever. So because you wanna put in the statistical best closer, that means an Avg closer has to be considered?

[Ritalin]

don't be absurd.

Since you were nice enough to take the words out of my mouth, how about taken your cock out of my ass..
You fuckin knew I was gonna say "don't be absurd", that line oozes jonyrotn..
Whatever dude, you fucked me a good one, again..JK..
That being said, I voted NO..And that's coming from a gimongous (insert short joke here)
Curt Schilling fan..

Yes, I know.. Yankees, Game 6, 2004, ALCS, bloody sanitary, the whole thing..But??
If winning big post season games is enough to get you up and into the HOF, then punch Beckett's card right now, cause NOBODY in history IMO, has been more dominant in the post season..Period..

Don't forget all those years Schill languished in Philly.. He was in the league for like 15 years before he was anything more then a solid number 2, number 3 arm, with hard stuff and a split finger..
IMO, Shill got awesome when steroids got him awesome..Now him, the sox and the Nation are paying for it..His body is breaking down cause he can no longer cycle, same as like 50% of the major leagues..

I love the guy and I appreciate what he's done for The Nation, but the Hall Of Fame? Nah,bro..Not even close..Sorry..

Keep the hallowed halls of the Hall sacred..Mediocrity shouldn't be honored in that fashion..


EDIT: I want Jim Rice in theer so fucking bad..The writers are racist!

Why is Jonyrotn flirting with me?

[K.C.]

Why is he a HOF. No one aside from KC, who doesnt have him as a lock, has backed up these statements with anything

You also have to consider who votes on the HOF...if you've ever heard any of these guys actually talk about it, a lot of times they just vote for who they like (and some are just mildly retarded...I think Woody Paige, of all people, has a HOF vote).

And Chipper is close enough, and well liked enough, that he's got a shot if he doesn't reach the 3000/500 milestones...but if he does hit them, then I'd say he's a lock.

[Snoogans]

You also have to consider who votes on the HOF...if you've ever heard any of these guys actually talk about it, a lot of times they just vote for who they like (and some are just mildly retarded...I think Woody Paige, of all people, has a HOF vote).

And Chipper is close enough, and well liked enough, that he's got a shot if he doesn't reach the 3000/500 milestones...but if he does hit them, then I'd say he's a lock.

Im not denying chipper may get in. I dont think he should, but he might. but he definately isnt a LOCK.

[Towelie]

Hoffman has the best closer numbers ever. So because you wanna put in the statistical best closer, that means an Avg closer has to be considered?

A career 181 ERA+ is average? (Much, much better then Hoffmans, BTW)

[JPMNICK]

Classic fringe guy who doesn't have all the pieces, but surely some good stats in key spots. For me it would have to come down to the other candidates at the time. One thing is for sure, he's not a first ballot, but I'm pretty sure he'll get in.

this is exactly what i was going to say. he will never be in 1st ballot.

[Snoogans]

A career 181 ERA+ is average? (Much, much better then Hoffmans, BTW)

Keep in mind the market. Wagner blows another few saves in NY and he wont even come up for it

[K.C.]

With Wagner vs. Hoffman...

Hoffman's the career saves leader (539), lead the league in saves twice. Wagner's never led the league in saves and sits at 374, although he does have a better ERA than Hoffman.

Wagner retiring at the end of his contract hurts him. Plus, he's got a reputation of not being a big game closer in three different cities now (Houston, Philadelphia, New York)...like I said with Chipper...you have to consider who votes, and the logic they use sometimes.

I can't see Wagner getting in.

[Towelie]

He can barely stay healthy. They tried bouncing him around to 1b and the OF aready and it didnt keep him healthy. Ive watched more braves games then sox games in my life. Chipper was usually not even the best player on his team, and he never struck me as doing HOF stuff like the other active locks.

Chipper has been in the top 25 of MVP voting every year of his career but 2, top 9 in 6. One of the years he didnt get a vote he only managed about half a season of games.

I'd say he was the best player on the Braves every year but 04 and 05.

[Snoogans]

Chipper has been in the top 25 of MVP voting every year of his career but 2, top 9 in 6. One of the years he didnt get a vote he only managed about half a season of games.

I'd say he was the best player on the Braves every year but 04 and 05.

You think chipper was the best player on the braves when they had Glavine and Smoltz and Maddox and Dave Justice and all them? Chipper never stood out for anything. Glavine and Justice are remembered for winning that WS. Chipper is remembered for not being able to get it done.


Also, as a side, I really believe we put way too many guys in the HOF now. Chipper's numbers compared to the guys he played with arent that special. They just arent. We really need to get away from comparing guys to what players 20, 30 40 years ago did.

[K.C.]

You think chipper was the best player on the braves when they had Glavine and Smoltz and Maddox and Dave Justice and all them? Chipper never stood out for anything. Glavine and Justice are remembered for winning that WS. Chipper is remembered for not being able to get it done.


Also, as a side, I really believe we put way too many guys in the HOF now. Chipper's numbers compared to the guys he played with arent that special. They just arent. We really need to get away from comparing guys to what players 20, 30 40 years ago did.


He's painfully consistent. Sometimes that's enough.

That would have gotten Rafael Palmeiro in until he blew up his spot.

[Towelie]

As far the big game arguement goes, Hoffman has never closed a "big game" in his entire career.

He's 1-2 with a 3.46 ERA in the playoffs with only 4 saves.

There is only one real "big game" closer in this generation of closers and thats Mo Rivera. Papelbon is certainly becoming one, but its still to early for him to be compared to Mariano.

[Snoogans]

He's painfully consistent. Sometimes that's enough.

That would have gotten Rafael Palmeiro in until he blew up his spot.

Yea and thats another guy alot of people didnt think was a HOF. Again, not sayin he wont get in, in fact i think he prob will. but he really shouldnt. Alot of guys that will get in from this era really shouldnt.

[Snoogans]

As far the big game arguement goes, Hoffman has never closed a "big game" in his entire career.

He's 1-2 with a 3.46 ERA in the playoffs with only 4 saves.

There is only one real "big game" closer in this generation of closers and thats Mo Rivera. Papelbon is certainly becoming one, but its still to early for him to be compared to Mariano.

Yea but hoffman has numbers to make up for that. If you hit the milestones, you are in. If you dont, you need some big time magic to get you over the hump, magic Wagner has never had

[TheMojoPin]

I look at Chipper a lot lot Schilling...decent, solid player, had some big moments, but overall nothing spectacular.

[Towelie]

You think chipper was the best player on the braves when they had Glavine and Smoltz and Maddox and Dave Justice and all them? Chipper never stood out for anything. Glavine and Justice are remembered for winning that WS. Chipper is remembered for not being able to get it done.


Also, as a side, I really believe we put way too many guys in the HOF now. Chipper's numbers compared to the guys he played with arent that special. They just arent. We really need to get away from comparing guys to what players 20, 30 40 years ago did.

You can't compare Chipper to the pitchers he had.

That's not fair to him or the pitchers.

And Chipper and David Justice only played together for 2 seasons, the first was Chippers rookie year, and the 2nd Justice only managed 40 games.

Only 4 times in his career has he not led his team in OPS.

And the fact that he's a switch hitter makes him a lock. To call him anything else is just silly.

[Snoogans]

You can't compare Chipper to the pitchers he had.

That's not fair to him or the pitchers.

And Chipper and David Justice only played together for 2 seasons, the first was Chippers rookie year, and the 2nd Justice only managed 40 games.

Only 4 times in his career has he not led his team in OPS.

And the fact that he's a switch hitter makes him a lock. To call him anything else is just silly.
and one of those justice years was the WS. If chipper wasnt important, that means he never won anything. He is known for blowing it in October. Justice and Glavine are the winners. And who cares if he is a switch hitter. Eddie Murray played in a much less offensive era, has better numbers as a switch hitter, and wasnt a lock HOF til 500 HRs which chipper DOES NOT HAVE IN A MORE OFFENSIVE ERA. You are talking nonsense

[Towelie]

Yea and thats another guy alot of people didnt think was a HOF. Again, not sayin he wont get in, in fact i think he prob will. but he really shouldnt. Alot of guys that will get in from this era really shouldnt.

Based on numbers alone Palmerio is one of the easiest locks for the HOF.

One of only three guys with 3,000 hits and 500 HRs

If that isn't a lock I dont know what is.

[Snoogans]

Based on numbers alone Palmerio is one of the easiest locks for the HOF.

One of only three guys with 3,000 hits and 500 HRs

If that isn't a lock I dont know what is.

Maybe you shoulda listened when he got there, and people STILL debated whether he would get in with it. Lock means everyone says yes. None of these guys were are debating are locks. The only locks I know of right now, esp steroid era, is ARod and Griffey.

[Snoogans]

At some point, 500 homers also shouldnt mean what it did. Sammy Sosa has over 600 homers, i dont think he is a lock. The era really did fuck things up with numbers

[K.C.]

As far the big game arguement goes, Hoffman has never closed a "big game" in his entire career.

He's 1-2 with a 3.46 ERA in the playoffs with only 4 saves.

There is only one real "big game" closer in this generation of closers and thats Mo Rivera. Papelbon is certainly becoming one, but its still to early for him to be compared to Mariano.

True...but like Snoogans says, Hoffman has the save numbers.

Plus, fair or unfair, Hoffman is pretty beloved by baseball writers, whereas, , a lot of writers think Wagner's an asshole.

It may be as simple as that.

The voters are a lot different these days. It's not like the old days, where it was solely about the numbers.


For what it's worth, Wagner's name should at least be batted around in discussion, but I think it's a big uphill battle for him to say the least.

[Towelie]

and one of those justice years was the WS. If chipper wasnt important, that means he never won anything. He is known for blowing it in October. Justice and Glavine are the winners

Lets look at the one full season they played on the same team.

Keeping in mind it was Chippers rookie year:

Chipper had a better BA, more RBI, more hits, more runs and more SB

David had a better OBP and SLG

They were equal in walks.

In the the three rounds of the playoffs Chipper hit .389, .438 and .286, He had 3 HRs and had 8 RBI

Justice hit .231, .273 and .250 and had 1 HR and 6 RBI.

I'm going to say overall, Chipper had the better season/playoffs

[Snoogans]

Lets look at the one season they played on the same team.

Keeping in mind it was Chippers rookie year:

Chipper had a better BA, more RBI, more hits, more runs and more SB
David had a better OBP and SLG

They were equal in walks.

In the the three rounds of the playoffs Chipper hit .389, .438 and .286, He had 3 HRs and had 8 RBI

Justice hit .231, .273 and .250 and had 1 HR and 6 RBI.

I'm going to say overall, Chipper had the better season/playoffs


Fine. You changed the point. Chipper isnt remembered for winning. Justice is. Thats all that matters. Otherwise the stats just blend into the overall.

My point was just to counter you sayin chipper is remembered for that 1 WS. He isnt. He is remembered as a guy who led a team who never won a WS, cause they remember glavine and justice leading that team. Thats my point

[K.C.]

At some point, 500 homers also shouldnt mean what it did. Sammy Sosa has over 600 homers, i dont think he is a lock. The era really did fuck things up with numbers

Palmeiro and Sosa will be the biggest casualties of the steroid era.

I don't think either will get in (Palmeiro especially...the absolute embarassment he brought upon himself will trump everything he did).


I wouldn't throw out the 500 HR mark, but I think a lot more attention will be paid to whether guys hit .290 or .300 and hit 500 HRs, vs. .270 or .260 and hit 500 HRs.

In other words, you're going to have to show something other than 500 HRs to get in.

That's what'll hurt a guy like Jim Thome (which is a shame, because I don't believe Thome ever took anything...he's just 'country strong.')

[Towelie]

Fine. You changed the point. Chipper isnt remembered for winning. Justice is. Thats all that matters. Otherwise the stats just blend into the overall.

Chipper isn't remembered for being a winner, because his team as a whole couldn't get it done in the post season.

Its not as if the guy has horrendous post season numbers. But one player alone can not get it done in the post season. He played in 11 straight post seasons, that has to count for something.

[Snoogans]

Chipper isn't remembered for being a winner, because his team as a whole couldn't get it done in the post season.

Its not as if the guy has horrendous post season numbers. But one player alone can not get it done in the post season. He played in 11 straight post seasons, that has to count for something.

That doesnt matter. ARod is known for being a choker and anti clutch. Its just how it is. Perception is reality to who votes

[TheMojoPin]

That doesnt matter. ARod is known for being a choker and anti clutch. Its just how it is. Perception is reality to who votes

There are crusty voters who have inferred that they won't vote for Santo because they though him clicking his heels after a Cubs win back in the day was arrogant.

Apparently losing both of his legs to diabetes isn't karmic retribution enough, so they have to be petty dicks.

[Towelie]

There is only one hall of fame 3rd baseman with a .300 BA and 300 homers and that is George Brett

I'd bet my house Chipper is the 2nd.

[Snoogans]

There is only one hall of fame 3rd baseman with a .300 BA and 300 homers and that is George Brett

I'd bet my house Chipper is the 2nd.

again, WE HAVE TO STOP COMPARING GUYS TO OLD PLAYERS. There is a 3B in the league right now with over 500 homers, hits over 300 and pisses all over chipper jones

[razorboy]

Palmeiro and Sosa will be the biggest casualties of the steroid era.

I don't think either will get in (Palmeiro especially...the absolute embarassment he brought upon himself will trump everything he did).


I wouldn't throw out the 500 HR mark, but I think a lot more attention will be paid to whether guys hit .290 or .300 and hit 500 HRs, vs. .270 or .260 and hit 500 HRs.

In other words, you're going to have to show something other than 500 HRs to get in.

That's what'll hurt a guy like Jim Thome (which is a shame, because I don't believe Thome ever took anything...he's just 'country strong.')

No, I don't think Thome ever took anything He's just a giant hacker a la Adam Dunn. That to me is what makes a guy like Frank Thomas so impressive. He had every physical tool to just walk up to the plate, hack, and hit 40 home runs in his sleep, but the guy was a complete hitter. I think people take for granted how good Thomas was just because of his reputation among sportswriters.

[Snoogans]

No, I don't think Thome ever took anything He's just a giant hacker a la Adam Dunn. That to me is what makes a guy like Frank Thomas so impressive. He had every physical tool to just walk up to the plate, hack, and hit 40 home runs in his sleep, but the guy was a complete hitter. I think people take for granted how good Thomas was just because of his reputation among sportswriters.

Correct. And Thomas should be in, but just cause his era and the numbers others put up around him, he still isnt a lock. Though he has to be there in the end. Just has to

[Towelie]

again, WE HAVE TO STOP COMPARING GUYS TO OLD PLAYERS. There is a 3B in the league right now with over 500 homers, hits over 300 and pisses all over chipper jones

So just because quite possibly the greatest player of all time is playing at the same time as him Chipper should get in?

Thats ridiculous, especially considering A-Rod accumulated most of those numbers as a shortstop.

[Snoogans]

So just because quite possibly the greatest player of all time is playing at the same time as him Chipper should get in?

Thats ridiculous, especially considering A-Rod accumulated most of those numbers as a shortstop.

and Chipper accumulated a couple years of his in LF. And Chipper was a SS first til he blew his knee in AAA and lost the range and they had to move him. My point is, numbers in todays era are inflated. You cant compare chippers numbers to george brett. Its not fair to Brett.

[Towelie]

Correct. And Thomas should be in, but just cause his era and the numbers others put up around him, he still isnt a lock. Though he has to be there in the end. Just has to

Thomas is a lock.

He's 13rd in career OPS.

No doubt about it, absolute lock.

[Snoogans]

and too a point, i think if there is another guy with you at your position who is better, it should hurt you. Hall of FAME. It doesnt mean any ho hum guy with solid numbers gets in. It means you should have dominated in your era at that position. Again, we put in WAY too many guys

[Snoogans]

Thomas is a lock.

He's 13rd in career OPS.

No doubt about it, absolute lock.

Im done with this convo cause you have no clue what a lock means. Thomas already gets debate from voters, so he isnt a lock. You are wrong, and I am done.

[Towelie]

and Chipper accumulated a couple years of his in LF. And Chipper was a SS first til he blew his knee in AAA and lost the range and they had to move him. My point is, numbers in todays era are inflated. You cant compare chippers numbers to george brett. Its not fair to Brett.

Two years in left field compared to 10 years as an SS?

Just compare their numbers as third baseman then

A-Rod: 184 HR/546 RBI/.306 AVG/.404 OBP/.578 SLG/.982 OPS

Chipper 325/1077/.313/.407/.561/.968

Plus Chipper did his damage in the NL

[Snoogans]

I cant argue this. A lock means EVERYONE thinks they are in. None of the guys we debated are locks cause voters will debate. ARod is a lock, so is Griffey. As of today, probably Manny too. Thats about it for hitters. Stop putting in everyone who was an all star. You are way to inclusive. You are wrong how you throw around lock.

[Towelie]

Im done with this convo cause you have no clue what a lock means. Thomas already gets debate from voters, so he isnt a lock. You are wrong, and I am done.

Oh, I didn't realize you had to be a unanimous selection to be in the hall. Silly me.

Of course there will be debate about a player. Every single player has had some debate.

To call Thomas anything but a lock is just stupid. I agree you should leave this thread, since you clearly have no idea what you're yammering about.

[Towelie]

I cant argue this. A lock means EVERYONE thinks they are in. None of the guys we debated are locks cause voters will debate. ARod is a lock, so is Griffey. As of today, probably Manny too. Thats about it for hitters. Stop putting in everyone who was an all star. You are way to inclusive. You are wrong how you throw around lock.

Every hitter?

Heres who I said were locks:


Alex Rodriguez
Ken Griffey Jr.
Ivan Rodriguez
Derek Jeter
Manny Ramirez
Frank Thomas
Chipper Jones
Ichiro
Jeff Kent
Omar Vizquel (Only on the fact that Ozzie got in)
Albert Pujols

Jesus, what a long list.

[Jose Canseco]

I am a lock for the Hall of Fame. Fuck Alex Rodriguez...steroid user!

[razorboy]

How did I not see this coming?

[Jose Canseco]

How did I not see this coming?

The only thing you didn't see were the titanic blasts I used to hit in Oakland and Texas because they got out of the park so quickly.

Not like that fucking doper, A-Rod. He'll be outed for sure in my third book.

[razorboy]

The only thing you didn't see were the titanic blasts I used to hit in Oakland and Texas because they got out of the park so quickly.

Not like that fucking doper, A-Rod. He'll be outed for sure in my third book.

You were so good you could hit homeruns off of your head.

[K.C.]

No, I don't think Thome ever took anything He's just a giant hacker a la Adam Dunn. That to me is what makes a guy like Frank Thomas so impressive. He had every physical tool to just walk up to the plate, hack, and hit 40 home runs in his sleep, but the guy was a complete hitter. I think people take for granted how good Thomas was just because of his reputation among sportswriters.

Thome could finish with 600 HRs.

He would have been a lock, but guys like Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, and so forth have tarnished what home run totals mean so much, that it's not as impressive as it should be.

Without Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, and Palmeiro, and the steroids cloud....Thome would be an absolute lock on his home run totals.


So it sucks that a guy goes from numbers that SHOULD have made him a lock, to probably not getting in, because he pays the price for guys who fucked it up before him.


Also, it doesn't do him justice on how good a hitter he was to just say he's a 'hacker.' The guy led the league in walks for three seasons...career OBP of .402, career slugging of .562.

He struck out a lot, but he was also a good hitter.

[Holes]

I would have put Jay Bruce as a lock for the HOF after his first full week in the Bigs!

[sailor]

Ron Santo.

Blame Joe Morgan.

dusty baker killed kerry wood.

[Holes]

dusty baker killed kerry wood.

Don't forget Mark Prior.

Also, look for him to destroy Volquez and Cueto.

IMHO the most overrated manager in baseball.

[Towelie]

Don't forget Mark Prior.

Also, look for him to destroy Volquez and Cueto.

IMHO the most overrated manager in baseball.

You can't blame Dusty for Prior really. Most of his injuries were freak things, and the arm problems are a result of a nasty collision while running the bases more so then Dusty's over use.

However, Dusty is just a lousy manager. How he got another job is beyond me.

[sailor]

Don't forget Mark Prior.

Also, look for him to destroy Volquez and Cueto.

IMHO the most overrated manager in baseball.

i actually meant prior. :wallbash:

[razorboy]

IMHO the most overrated manager in baseball.

I don't think enough people think he's very good to begin with. Tony LaRussa=most overrated manager.

[TheMojoPin]

You can't blame Dusty for Prior really. Most of his injuries were freak things, and the arm problems are a result of a nasty collision while running the bases more so then Dusty's over use.

However, Dusty is just a lousy manager. How he got another job is beyond me.

You can completely blame him for Prior. The two freak accidents were just that, but what them worse is that they came after Prior's pitching mechanics were already thrown off by his freakishly abusive rookie season. 8 times in his first year in the bigs Dusty had him throw over 120 pitches. That's just dumb, especially after collidng with Giles like he did. He was already showing signs of wearing down by the time 2003 ended. Then he had to adjust his mechanics even more at the start of the next season due to his tweeked achilles, likely due to 2003, and yet Dusty kept throwing him out there for long outings. I understand people not wanting to baby pitchers, but this is pitcher just into the majors. The workload between college and the MLB is massively different. Prior bypassed the minors quickly due to how good he was, but it falls to the coaches to make sure they're not fucking him up as he develops into a MLB pitcher. By the time he took the linedrive off of his elbow, he was pretty much doomed thanks to the overwork of his rookie season. Odds are if Dusty had better managed arookie pitcher, Prior could have recovered from the basepath collision and the linedrive.

[keithy_19]

Jose Reyes in 2023.

[Kevin]

As much as i hate the bastard.. He is a 1st ballot HOF.

His reg season alone is borderline. But his playoff record brings him way over the top

[TheMojoPin]

His reg season alone is borderline. But his playoff record brings him way over the top

I hate this mentality.

[Towelie]

I hate this mentality.

Sadly though, its pretty much par for the course for the majority of HOF voters.

[Kevin]

I hate this mentality.

Oh, i think your mentality on it might change if Big Z dominates the playoffs and helps win a WS for you.

[TheMojoPin]

Oh, i think your mentality on it might change if Big Z dominates the playoffs and helps win a WS for you.

Nope. I'm not big on propping guys up based on exstremely limited and flukeish sample sizes. If a guy should get into the HOF basically based almost totally on his playoff month numbers, though being unremarkable the rest of the season, why not put in guys who are also solid but unremarkable all season, but are amazing almost every April? Or every July? Or any other ranom month or multi-week sample size out of a season? You could argue that consistent monthlong amazing performances every year in any one of the various regular season months is more impressive since the schedules during those months are much more strenuous and varied than the playoff weeks.

[Snoogans]

You can't blame Dusty for Prior really. Most of his injuries were freak things, and the arm problems are a result of a nasty collision while running the bases more so then Dusty's over use.

However, Dusty is just a lousy manager. How he got another job is beyond me.

Prior blames Dusty for his arm problems from over working him. if Prior blames him, good enough for me

[Snoogans]

Oh, i think your mentality on it might change if Big Z dominates the playoffs and helps win a WS for you.

Dominates the Disabled list just like all the Cubs greats

[TheMojoPin]

Dominates the Disabled list just like all the Cubs greats

Silence. Teams wish they had a horse like him. He's the anti-Prior.

[JPMNICK]

from ESPN today-

Ah, but it depends which numbers you're looking at. And I looked at bunch of other numbers--numbers that rank all righthanded starters from 1992, the year Schilling first moved into the starting rotation in Philadelphia, through 2007, the year he apparently threw his final pitch in Boston. Here's what I found:

Schilling not only led all of them in complete games (with 83), but only one other righthander in the whole sport (Greg Maddux) was closer than 25 CGs away. Just Pedro Martinez had a better strikeout ratio than Schilling (8.59 K/9). Only Pedro and Roger Clemens had more strikeouts than Schilling (3,116) , period. Just Pedro and Maddux had a better WHIP than Schilling (1.137). And nobody had a better strikeout-walk ratio. In fact, Schilling's K/BB ratio (4.38 whiffs for every walk) ranks No. 1 among ALL PITCHERS IN THE MODERN ERA.

http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=21220

[underdog]

from ESPN today-

Ah, but it depends which numbers you're looking at. And I looked at bunch of other numbers--numbers that rank all righthanded starters from 1992, the year Schilling first moved into the starting rotation in Philadelphia, through 2007, the year he apparently threw his final pitch in Boston. Here's what I found:

Schilling not only led all of them in complete games (with 83), but only one other righthander in the whole sport (Greg Maddux) was closer than 25 CGs away. Just Pedro Martinez had a better strikeout ratio than Schilling (8.59 K/9). Only Pedro and Roger Clemens had more strikeouts than Schilling (3,116) , period. Just Pedro and Maddux had a better WHIP than Schilling (1.137). And nobody had a better strikeout-walk ratio. In fact, Schilling's K/BB ratio (4.38 whiffs for every walk) ranks No. 1 among ALL PITCHERS IN THE MODERN ERA.

http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=21220

Shhh. Quiet with your "stats" and "numbers".

Every baseball fan knows the only stat that matters is wins! Even though the pitcher has almost no control over how his team does.

In fact, I hope a mod deletes your post. Its filled with facts and logic and has no place in this conversation.