Lost: Season 5

[Doogie]

Hurley being questioned about when he was born was great! I literally laughed out loud!

Ha!! "uhhh...19...31." I laughed my ass off also at his trying to keep cool. I saw Hurley as the drug dealer again from "Curb Your Enthusiasm."

[disneyspy]

bought time sayid showed up

[PigShitIrish]

How many episodes are left this season?

[IamFogHat]

Sayid!!!!:clap:

[Doctor Manhattan]

I love that even Richard does not just know everything. The Island does not reveal all to any one person.

[extracheese]

2-hour finale next Wednesday.

Then 1 more season.

[Doctor Manhattan]

How many episodes are left this season?

After tonight just the finale (2 hours I think) I type too slow...

[WampusCrandle]

Sayid!!!!:clap:

i was wondering when we were going to see him again

[WampusCrandle]

wow - juliet and sawyer are actually leaving the island.

[IamFogHat]

This isn't even over yet and it is by far the best lead in to a finale of the show's history. They're usually kind of fluff or chain links, but this ep is fucking amazing and fucking my mind beyond belief.

[K.C.]

Two predictions:

1) Richard will kill or attempt to kill all the 1977ers to preserve the timeline.
2) Old Eloise sent Jack, Kate, and Hurley back to try and change the past (hence the 'for the first time in a long time, I don't know what's going to happen' comment)

[Doogie]

I love the fact that both Richard and Ben are like "hummena hummena..." whenever Locke says he wants to do something. I also love the horrified look on Ben's face when Locke said that he had never seen Jacob...Ohhh man, this is a great episode.

I also love Sawyer trying to figure out where to make bets or to invest money. That scene made me laugh.

Last minute theory...Sawyers map triggers the war between the Dharma initiative and the Hostiles. I also love the parallels of how Horace and Richard are losing control of their people.

Ohhh and finally to the one who said "I cant believe Sawyer and Juliet are leaving." The episode nor the season is over yet.

[WampusCrandle]

what the hell was that commercial? did anyone else see that or was it just me?

[IamFogHat]

what the hell was that commercial? did anyone else see that or was it just me?

No, elaborate please. Was it a subliminal one like from last season?

[WampusCrandle]

Ohhh and finally to the one who said "I cant believe Sawyer and Juliet are leaving." The episode nor the season is over yet.

i know, but this time just felt different. and boy, Juliet has that angry eye when Kate got in the sub.

[WampusCrandle]

No, elaborate please. Was it a subliminal one like from last season?

i dont know about last season, but it flashed a few images and said something erie like "what did you see? was it really there?"

[BlackSpider]

( That sub scene looked real...)

[razorboy]

Dear God, that was awful CGI.

[IamFogHat]

First time I'll say this about Lost, but that Sub scene was the worst special effects ever.

[BlackSpider]

( That sub scene looked real...)

Dear God, that was awful CGI.

That's why I used italics AND parenthesis...

[WampusCrandle]

holy shit!! Locke is gonna try to kill Jacob?!?! awesome!

[WampusCrandle]

First time I'll say this about Lost, but that Sub scene was the worst special effects ever.

agreed.

and it looks like all that are on the sub are back on the island.

[disneyspy]

jacobs a dead man and i wouldnt mind bein cuffed to kate and juliette

[BlackSpider]

holy shit!! Locke is gonna try to kill Jacob?!?! awesome!

Won't the bomb do that...?

[HBox]

It looks like that sub scene was generated by a Nintendo 64.

[Doogie]

I liked the ending of that episode immensely.

And that sub scene made me giggle and think of something:

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[K.C.]

I don't even know how to react to that.

I guess my first question would be what the hell are Locke's motives.

And then my second would be whether it's possible that Eloise, Charles, and everyone have been playing the game they've been playing to get send Jack & Co. back so they can change the future, prevent 815 from ever landing, and prevent Locke from killing Jacob?

[extracheese]

My guess is that Richard will NOT do much of anything, except follow along, because i think the writers want to keep Richards agenda a mystery until next season. It will be Ben who spearheads the trouble and tries to stop Locke.

The summer will be the longest one ever, waiting for all this to unfold AND BE ANSWERED!!
ONE SEASON LEFT!

[TooLowBrow]

agreed.

and it looks like all that are on the sub are back on the island.

not baby miles and his mom...

[K.C.]

I guess my big question is did Locke just make a heel turn?

He's not getting his orders from the island like he says. Why would the island want Jacob dead?

Furthermore, he pretty much admitted to not giving a damn about any of the 1977ers.

I think the spin on the finale is that Ben will ultimately be the good guy, foiling Locke's plan, saving Jacob, but Locke will kill him in the process.

[TooLowBrow]

I guess my big question is did Locke just make a heel turn?

He's not getting his orders from the island like he says. Why would the island want Jacob dead?

Furthermore, he pretty much admitted to not giving a damn about any of the 1977ers.

I think the spin on the finale is that Ben will ultimately be the good guy, foiling Locke's plan, saving Jacob, but Locke will kill him in the process.

i think lockes dying and coming back is his turning point

didnt he travel to the past with ben and richard to save and advise himself

but now he sees that these so called loyal others never died and came back

so he wants them, at least jacob, to die and come back

for once, really in tune with the islands wishes

[disneyspy]

i dont think locke traveled to the past,cuz when the island was time shiftin it went into the future too,just weird that locke knew the exact time he'd be at that spot in the present(2007)

[Doogie]

I guess my big question is did Locke just make a heel turn?

He's not getting his orders from the island like he says. Why would the island want Jacob dead?

Furthermore, he pretty much admitted to not giving a damn about any of the 1977ers.

I think the spin on the finale is that Ben will ultimately be the good guy, foiling Locke's plan, saving Jacob, but Locke will kill him in the process.

Hmmmm...the tragic figure. Maybe Locke is receiving orders from the island and maybe the island sees Richard, Jacob, Ben etc as threats and wants the threats removed. Maybe that is why Jack and the others wound up in 1977 to do their duty, while Ben does his duty and wiping out the "parasites" from the island.

Ronnie made an interesting theory a few seasons ago that Locke would make a "great sacrifice" for the island. An intersting theory, and going along with this theory, perhaps the island has Locke doing all this and re-animating him so that this sacrifice may occur.

[K.C.]

i think lockes dying and coming back is his turning point

Agreed.

didnt he travel to the past with ben and richard to save and advise himself

Ehhhh...not really. His present overlapped with his past by virtue of him travelling to the future (his present) in the past (maybe the most confusing sentence I've ever written). Suffice to say, 2007 Locke, Ben, and Richard were all in their present condition.

but now he sees that these so called loyal others never died and came back

so he wants them, at least jacob, to die and come back

for once, really in tune with the islands wishes

Up to this point, we (or at least I) have been led to believe that Jacob is the driving force of the island. In fact, I haven't seen any evidence that Jacob is working against the island.

I guess it's possible that Locke may be trying to supplant Jacob as the new sort of island god.

[K.C.]

Hmmmm...the tragic figure. Maybe Locke is receiving orders from the island and maybe the island sees Richard, Jacob, Ben etc as threats and wants the threats removed. Maybe that is why Jack and the others wound up in 1977 to do their duty, while Ben does his duty and wiping out the "parasites" from the island.

Ronnie made an interesting theory a few seasons ago that Locke would make a "great sacrifice" for the island. An intersting theory, and going along with this theory, perhaps the island has Locke doing all this and re-animating him so that this sacrifice may occur.

The mind blower would be if Eloise sent Jack back to erase what Locke is about to do.

[disneyspy]

maybe once jacobs out of the way locke can bring the 77ers back

[WampusCrandle]

i feel stupid now. so, they can change the past to change the future? i just assumed that everything that they did, thinking they were changing the past, was just them creating the future that they were in.

[K.C.]

i feel stupid now. so, they can change the past to change the future? i just assumed that everything that they did, thinking they were changing the past, was just them creating the future that they were in.

It all comes down to if Lost's time travel theory allows for alternate timelines. If it does, then yes, they can change the past to create an alternate future (with the original past and future still remaining somewhere in space and time, in a sort of holding cell, or 'Lost' if you will).

If no, then, no...whatever happened happened.

[KingGeno]

It looks like that sub scene was generated by a Nintendo 64.

Holy crap I was thinking the EXACT same thing. It reminded me of something from Goldeneye or Turok. Just awful.

[Doogie]

I have a feeling the cheap CGI diverted our attention away from key details of the island. Maybe that was the intention of the producers to see who was paying attention to the cheap CGI and who was watching what was going on around the sub.

[hammersavage]

I asked this before cuz I don't remember if we were ever shown this. Is Jack's father actually alive on the Island or is it just Jack's vision?

Because if the 2nd flight reenacted the 1st and Locke came back to life, would it make sense that Jack's dad also did?

[TooLowBrow]

daniel says that the island has to be evacuated

richard says he saw the losties die

but if there was really a cataclysmic event wouldnt the dharma village be destroyed?
its ok in the future

wouldnt the dharma men be killed too
(many of them are still alive years later, when ben is a young man, during the purge)


do the losties harness the energy that could have destroyed the island to travel in time? this wouldve looked like death to an outsider

[TooLowBrow]

.



Up to this point, we (or at least I) have been led to believe that Jacob is the driving force of the island. In fact, I haven't seen any evidence that Jacob is working against the island.

I guess it's possible that Locke may be trying to supplant Jacob as the new sort of island god.

but locke may now see death as an awakening, due to his recent past



based upon the egyptian stuff, im guessing hes going to kill jacob to 'free the god(island)'
the smoke monster(security system) is also part of what is holding the island(god) down
it keeps people from getting to close to jacob if they have death in their thoughts
the island is trying to draw in people to free it but the smoke monster, the others, the dharma all try to keep everyone away

[Furtherman]

for the first time, i have the overwhelming feeling that a big character will die.
:glurps:
i know, but this time just felt different. and boy, Juliet has that angry eye when Kate got in the sub.

I don't see Juliet surviving the finale... and now I think Sawyer might not be safe either.


Hurley being questioned about when he was born was great! I literally laughed out loud!

Another classic Hurley moment. "Yea dude, we're from the future."

Two hour season finale! I wish they would release this season on DVD ASAP, because I can't wait to watch it again.

[CountryBob]

Could Sawyer and Juliette be "Adam and Eve"?

[fezident]

Could Sawyer and Juliette be "Adam and Eve"?

Nah.
It's Rose & Bernard.

[ChrisTheCop]

Wasnt Faraday's death "major" enough?

And I like the theory above about Locke seeing death as freeing;
Jacob asked Locke to save him (remember he is basically being held captive in that cabin)... perhaps this is the way.

[King Imp]

How about this? I really have liked the Locke character, so for him to possibly be a heel doesn't sit well with me.

What if this whole "I'm gonna kill Jacob" isn't what most assume it is? Keep in mind that Locke specifically wants to bring everyone along to see. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that there is no Jacob. Not in the sense of there being a real person that is. I say Locke is bringing everyone to show them that Jacob doesn't exist and they don't have to follow a certain set of rules, thus "killing" him in their eyes.

[PD]

How about this? I really have liked the Locke character, so for him to possibly be a heel doesn't sit well with me.

What if this whole "I'm gonna kill Jacob" isn't what most assume it is? Keep in mind that Locke specifically wants to bring everyone along to see. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that there is no Jacob. Not in the sense of there being a real person that is. I say Locke is bringing everyone to show them that Jacob doesn't exist and they don't have to follow a certain set of rules, thus "killing" him in their eyes.

I was thinking this as well.
Remember in the early seasons when they heard voices?
and then they travel in time and watch themselves?

I also think now that Jacob isn't what anyone thought.

As for Christian shepherd, didnt he say to some character that he wasn't alive?

[K.C.]

I wonder if we're just missing the obvious...that Locke is dead, that the monster is using his body as its instrument of destruction, and it wants to judge and kill Jacob for being the grand manipulator.

[K.C.]

What if this whole "I'm gonna kill Jacob" isn't what most assume it is? Keep in mind that Locke specifically wants to bring everyone along to see. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that there is no Jacob. Not in the sense of there being a real person that is. I say Locke is bringing everyone to show them that Jacob doesn't exist and they don't have to follow a certain set of rules, thus "killing" him in their eyes.

Jacob spoke to Locke in Season 3.

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[MagillaGorillaz]

I'm starting to think Jacob is Jack.

[TooLowBrow]

I wonder if we're just missing the obvious...that Locke is dead, that the monster is using his body as its instrument of destruction, and it wants to judge and kill Jacob for being the grand manipulator.

but the 'monster' told ben not to try to kill locke anymore

[Dell]

I'm starting to think Jacob is Jack.

I was leaning that way earlier and started thinking that again when Freckles left him and got on the sub

[PD]

Jacob spoke to Locke in Season 3.

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Locke spoke to something.
we dont know what or how. It could be Locke in the future, it could be a wizard of oz type trick. (though i don't think that would be it)

[K.C.]

but the 'monster' told ben not to try to kill locke anymore

It actually told Ben that it 'knew he was already planning to kill Locke again.' It could have just been stating Ben's inner thoughts since it scanned him just moments before.

And then it told him to follow Locke's every order, or it would destroy him. It's a subtle difference, but it's consistent with Locke possibly being the monster.

I'm not sure I believe Locke's the monster myself...but I think I can say that I don't think Locke is Locke anymore.

[K.C.]

Locke spoke to something.
we dont know what or how. It could be Locke in the future, it could be a wizard of oz type trick. (though i don't think that would be it)

I'm going with the idea that he spoke with Jacob, because I don't know what else it would be.

Now who Jacob exactly is...that's interesting. I'm not sure why so many people believe he's a version of one of the survivors (i.e. Jack, Locke).

He can't be Locke unless there's going to be a Season 6 plotline in which Locke time travels again to a point in time where he becomes Jacob, because all of Locke's time traveling has been accounted for.

And it can't be Jack, unless a similar thing happens, because Widmore and Richard reference Jacob before they ever meet Jack in the 70s, which means he exists pre-1977, which is as far back as Jack travels in time.


I really have thought all along that Jacob is its own entity.

[TooLowBrow]

It actually told Ben that it 'knew he was already planning to kill Locke again.' It could have just been stating Ben's inner thoughts since it scanned him just moments before.

And then it told him to follow Locke's every order, or it would destroy him. It's a subtle difference, but it's consistent with Locke possibly being the monster.

I'm not sure I believe Locke's the monster myself...but I think I can say that I don't think Locke is Locke anymore.

the smoke monster has been described as a 'security system'

does it protect the island/jacob/the leader of the others? all of the above?

[SP1!]

the smoke monster has been described as a 'security system'

does it protect the island/jacob/the leader of the others? all of the above?

I think it only sits in judgment of peoples actions and that is what people are protecting, the unique properties of the island.

Im starting to think that jack succeeds in stopping the incident which is why richard believes them to be dead, they disappear from his existence and he just assumes they are dead in the blast.

[K.C.]

Im starting to think that jack succeeds in stopping the incident which is why richard believes them to be dead, they disappear from his existence and he just assumes they are dead in the blast.

If Jack succeeds, then Locke never comes to the island, which means he, Richard, and Sun never have that conversation.

If they do alter the timeline, I think what we're going to find out is that originally, what's always happened is that Jack & Co. have always gone back, always tried to change the timeline, and died in the process (hence Richard's comment).

I know I bring up that I think Desmond's one of the big keys to everything every other day, but I think what may make this time around in the time loop different is that Desmond was able to make himself a variable in time by virtue of what happened at the hatch in Season 2, and he changed certain things (i.e. Charlie), but not to an extreme level...only little alteration here and there.

But Daniel comes to the realization that Desmond is uniquely special in relation to time very early on.

And I would be willing to bet that the crux of Daniel's new belief about time was "if he's already changed certain things in relation to me, maybe that will allow me to make certain changes, since I'm now different because of different events having played out (aka a ripple effect)."

In other words, the independent and dependent variables.

x(squared)=y

If the independent variable (Desmond) already broke the chain of whatever happened happened, then the dependent variable (Daniel), by virtue of the chain reaction already being started, may have the ability to change things as well, but only if that change has already started (because he's dependent...he doesn't have the ability to break the string of time on his own).

So Faraday arrives in 1977 like a madman, waving his gun around and spouting crazy things at anyone who will listen in the hopes that something he does will create a timeline different than this one (which for him is torture, because he's essentially the cause of Charlotte's death).

Jack would be another dependent variable, ultimately playing off of Daniel and Desmond. For him to change something, he'll have needed both of them to have already initiated some change, which will allow him to do something different this time around.

[mikeyboy]

As of a couple of months ago, I had never seen an episode of Lost. Over the course of several weeks, I rectified that by watching every single episode and a couple of the crappy recap clip shows. Watching all of the episodes over such a short period of time has it's advantages -- If there was a particularly great cliffhanger, I had the option to start watching the next episode right away. There were disadvantages as well -- spoilers are everywhere, sometimes just from catching promos for shows ("Michael's on a cop show now? I guess he isn't on Lost anymore." "Wait? Henry Gale is still on the show 4 seasons later and he's definitely a bad guy?") The other advantage in watching it this way is I never really tried to figure the show out. I mean, I had guesses as to where things were going, but I didn't dwell on it too much. I was able to just let the show unfold. Now, however, I've been reading this thread, and I have a week or more between episodes and then a break between seasons, and I've been getting caught up in all of it. It's very weird to be discussing, analyzing and speculating. It's only going to get worse between seasons, I assume. Not sure this is a good thing.

[PD]

FWIW,
the podcast before last nights show they mentioned a scene they cut- where Daniel was going to dhow his idea by throwing 2 rocks in a stream - a small one where the stream acts as if it was never there, and a big bolder, which would cause the stream to go around it.
that was why the bomb was important- Daniel believed only big things in the past could change destiny.

of course we don't know yet whether Daniel was right...

[PD]

As of a couple of months ago, I had never seen an episode of Lost. Over the course of several weeks, I rectified that by watching every single episode and a couple of the crappy recap clip shows. Watching all of the episodes over such a short period of time has it's advantages -- If there was a particularly great cliffhanger, I had the option to start watching the next episode right away. There were disadvantages as well -- spoilers are everywhere, sometimes just from catching promos for shows ("Michael's on a cop show now? I guess he isn't on Lost anymore." "Wait? Henry Gale is still on the show 4 seasons later and he's definitely a bad guy?") The other advantage in watching it this way is I never really tried to figure the show out. I mean, I had guesses as to where things were going, but I didn't dwell on it too much. I was able to just let the show unfold. Now, however, I've been reading this thread, and I have a week or more between episodes and then a break between seasons, and I've been getting caught up in all of it. It's very weird to be discussing, analyzing and speculating. It's only going to get worse between seasons, I assume. Not sure this is a good thing.

the other thing is that when you are "caught up" there are plenty of people/places out there to speculate with you, without being a definite spoiler. This was especially true during the summers when there were "extra-curricular activity" sites - like http://www.thehansofoundation.org/

[The Jays]

As of a couple of months ago, I had never seen an episode of Lost. Over the course of several weeks, I rectified that by watching every single episode and a couple of the crappy recap clip shows. Watching all of the episodes over such a short period of time has it's advantages -- If there was a particularly great cliffhanger, I had the option to start watching the next episode right away. There were disadvantages as well -- spoilers are everywhere, sometimes just from catching promos for shows ("Michael's on a cop show now? I guess he isn't on Lost anymore." "Wait? Henry Gale is still on the show 4 seasons later and he's definitely a bad guy?") The other advantage in watching it this way is I never really tried to figure the show out. I mean, I had guesses as to where things were going, but I didn't dwell on it too much. I was able to just let the show unfold. Now, however, I've been reading this thread, and I have a week or more between episodes and then a break between seasons, and I've been getting caught up in all of it. It's very weird to be discussing, analyzing and speculating. It's only going to get worse between seasons, I assume. Not sure this is a good thing.

I am in a similiar position.

Now, I am not very anal about watching things is order. In fact, I began by watching last season, and then piecing everything in I see from the previous seasons.

I am glad they are playing Season 1 on Sci Fi at 4pm, and my DVR is recording them.

I have been able to see things I would not have noticed if I watched it from the begining.

I also now believe that I am actually Jacob. I am afraid John is going to kill me. :(

[King Imp]

How about this? I really have liked the Locke character, so for him to possibly be a heel doesn't sit well with me.

What if this whole "I'm gonna kill Jacob" isn't what most assume it is? Keep in mind that Locke specifically wants to bring everyone along to see. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that there is no Jacob. Not in the sense of there being a real person that is. I say Locke is bringing everyone to show them that Jacob doesn't exist and they don't have to follow a certain set of rules, thus "killing" him in their eyes.

Jacob spoke to Locke in Season 3.

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I'm sure my theory is probably wrong as I've never been right on anything pertaining to this show, but to be techincal that video didn't prove much.

First off, the only time you heard Jacob was when Locke had his back turned to Ben. Call me crazy, but that could have easily been Ben.

As for what Locke saw, granted we have all seen the closeup pic of a person sitting there, but only because some people who have way too much time on their hands decided to capture that and blow it up. We don't know exactly what Locke saw himself as it was so fast you couldn't even make out that it was a person.

[TooLowBrow]

As of a couple of months ago, I had never seen an episode of Lost. Over the course of several weeks, I rectified that by watching every single episode and a couple of the crappy recap clip shows. Watching all of the episodes over such a short period of time has it's advantages -- If there was a particularly great cliffhanger, I had the option to start watching the next episode right away. There were disadvantages as well -- spoilers are everywhere, sometimes just from catching promos for shows ("Michael's on a cop show now? I guess he isn't on Lost anymore." "Wait? Henry Gale is still on the show 4 seasons later and he's definitely a bad guy?") The other advantage in watching it this way is I never really tried to figure the show out. I mean, I had guesses as to where things were going, but I didn't dwell on it too much. I was able to just let the show unfold. Now, however, I've been reading this thread, and I have a week or more between episodes and then a break between seasons, and I've been getting caught up in all of it. It's very weird to be discussing, analyzing and speculating. It's only going to get worse between seasons, I assume. Not sure this is a good thing.

i was there.
it was fun to know the future, where certain characters would head.

i still have no idea where anyone will wind up.

[Furtherman]

Found this on youtube.... HA!

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In 5x15, Pierre Change challenges Hurley and finds out that he is indeed from the future. The question that nailed Hurley? Who is the president. If you recall, Hurley asked Sawyer before they joined Dharma "What if they ask me something I don't know. Like who's the president?" Ah, poor Hurley.

[instrument]

if sawyer juliet kate really make it back to the mainland, i could really believe they are the source of those what lies beneath the statue folks.

if anyone could go back in time and make a ton of cash i'd put my money on sawyer.

and they showed no interest in changing time, so they probably would've never tried to affect their own lives.

maybe after the incident jack will somehow be affected in the same sort of way that desmond was and he magically becomes jacob.

or maybe jacob is the wizard of oz.

[Servo]

Has it ever been mentioned that Jacob's "help me" to Locke sounds a lot like Clancy Brown, who played Kelvin?

[PD]

I also now believe that I am actually Jacob. I am afraid John is going to kill me. :(
you mean justjon is going to kill you.

[Goatweed]

As of a couple of months ago, I had never seen an episode of Lost. Over the course of several weeks, I rectified that by watching every single episode and a couple of the crappy recap clip shows. Watching all of the episodes over such a short period of time has it's advantages -- If there was a particularly great cliffhanger, I had the option to start watching the next episode right away. There were disadvantages as well -- spoilers are everywhere, sometimes just from catching promos for shows ("Michael's on a cop show now? I guess he isn't on Lost anymore." "Wait? Henry Gale is still on the show 4 seasons later and he's definitely a bad guy?") The other advantage in watching it this way is I never really tried to figure the show out. I mean, I had guesses as to where things were going, but I didn't dwell on it too much. I was able to just let the show unfold. Now, however, I've been reading this thread, and I have a week or more between episodes and then a break between seasons, and I've been getting caught up in all of it. It's very weird to be discussing, analyzing and speculating. It's only going to get worse between seasons, I assume. Not sure this is a good thing.

I am in a similiar position.

Now, I am not very anal about watching things is order. In fact, I began by watching last season, and then piecing everything in I see from the previous seasons.

I am glad they are playing Season 1 on Sci Fi at 4pm, and my DVR is recording them.

I have been able to see things I would not have noticed if I watched it from the begining.

I also now believe that I am actually Jacob. I am afraid John is going to kill me. :(

PD linked me to this thread but I only read these few posts because I am more or less in the same position as you two. I never watched the show when it came on (I don;t know why really) and once there was huge hype over it I thought I'd give it a shot, but I read somewhere that the writers were intentionally putting bullshit clues and things out there to mess with the over-analyzing fans and that turned me off.

Anyway I recently decided to fire up torrents and grab seasons 1-4, as well as 5 as it comes out and start out fresh - mostly because summer is upon us, and that means reruns of everything else - plus now that Gallactica is gone I need something to fill the void.

I'm halfway through season 2 and so far I'm digging it. I know I'm missing a lot of little clues and hints but once I get caught up I'll be hitting threads like this and other sources of discussion.

I'm glad I'm not alone on this journey!

[instrument]

after seeing star trek has anyone changed what they expect from lost?

[Furtherman]

after seeing star trek has anyone changed what they expect from lost?

No.

[PD]

I don't know if this was mentioned before, but I was going back over the storyline with goatweed- who is only up to season 2. We talked about Henry Gale, and I gave the Wizard of Oz reference, however I also found this

http://www.lost.com/anotherhenrygale.shtml

seems there was a Henry G Gale, who was a physicist, who happened to work on magneticism (hmmm, magneticism scientist and lost......)

[K.C.]

I just had a little bit of a revelation while watching the promo for the finale.

Jack says to Kate 'are you with me on this?'

Kate already said to Jack earlier this season that she's "always been with him."

So let's say she says yes, and helps Jack carry out his plan. Remember what Alpert said about them dying? What if the game-changer is that Kate goes with Jack and Jack gets her killed?

[PD]

I just had a little bit of a revelation while watching the promo for the finale.

Jack says to Kate 'are you with me on this?'

Kate already said to Jack earlier this season that she's "always been with him."

So let's say she says yes, and helps Jack carry out his plan. Remember what Alpert said about them dying? What if the game-changer is that Kate goes with Jack and Jack gets her killed?

I did think I heard that a major character would be killed (although my bet is Juliette)
there are obviously a number of things that have to be explained- like why sawyer/Juliette/Kate come back to the island.

[mikeyboy]

I did think I heard that a major character would be killed (although my bet is Juliette)
there are obviously a number of things that have to be explained- like why sawyer/Juliette/Kate come back to the island.

I can't remember where I read it, but I believe that teh actress playing Juliette was cast on another show next year, which might be a good indicator that she'll be killed.

[K.C.]

I did think I heard that a major character would be killed (although my bet is Juliette)
there are obviously a number of things that have to be explained- like why sawyer/Juliette/Kate come back to the island.

I think it's safe to say that Kate will tell Sawyer what Jack's plan is, and Sawyer will commandeer the sub to stop Jack, because he doesn't want to change things.

And that actually makes sense, because wouldn't young Miles need to be on the island during the Incident to get his talking to the dead superpower? Right now he's on the sub with Young Charlotte.

The real kicker, as annoying as it is, will probably be that Sawyer will try to stop Jack, not because he wants to salvage his relationship with Juliet, but because he'll have never met Kate, thus kicking the Jack-Kate-Sawyer thing into megaoverdrive, and ending the Sawyer/Juliet relationship.

I could see Juliet dying, but, I kind of think she'll disappear like Claire did and we'll get an episode next season about what happened to her.

I had a theory for a while that she leaves the island in 1977 and that that lady Jill who ran the butcher shop that knew Ben from earlier this season was a mid-50s, early 60-s verison of Juliet.

[hammersavage]

I can't remember where I read it, but I believe that teh actress playing Juliette was cast on another show next year, which might be a good indicator that she'll be killed.

Remake of V.

Allegedly, she is just a guest star.

[K.C.]

I can't remember where I read it, but I believe that teh actress playing Juliette was cast on another show next year, which might be a good indicator that she'll be killed.

I don't think that means anything, really, though. The shooting on Lost is really fragmented. Look at Desmond...he appeared in all of a few episodes this season, and really only had one big one.

The actor could have shot a ton of stuff with all the episodes he wasn't in.

It could just mean that the person in your spoiler tag (I won't give it away either) could be taking a reduced role in the show. Or it could mean nothing.

[hammersavage]

I don't think that means anything, really, though. The shooting on Lost is really fragmented. Look at Desmond...he appeared in all of a few episodes this season, and really only had one big one.

The actor could have shot a ton of stuff with all the episodes he wasn't in.

It could just mean that the person in your spoiler tag (I won't give it away either) could be taking a reduced role in the show. Or it could mean nothing.

Or it could be like Libby

[Dell]

the wrappers to hide potential spoilers is a great idea... however, I cannot stop myself from looking even when I don't want to know... damn my fragile will power

[K.C.]

There's also another pretty big rumor floating around that the thing leaked earlier this year that PD is referencing about a 'major death' was intentionally leaked by some of the people who work on the show to intentionally throw people off after how many people were spoiled on last year's finale.

It's getting so diluted that I don't really believe any rumor I hear about the show anymore.

In fact, I'm not reading anything about the show this week. I saw the Post had an article on the show a couple days ago and I skipped over it. I don't want to be spoiled.

The Season 3 finale is still one of the best TV episodes I've ever seen and it was because I wasn't spoiled.

[hammersavage]

Get some god damn will power, skcirdell

[JBLouisville]

I really expect that Richard and Ben are keeping Jacob Hostage. To exploit the island to their advantage.

Does anyone think that the message Claire sent out on the bird will ever play a part in anything. I only say this because there is a theory that the Statue folk is something to do with that.

Widmore is in that box!

[mikeyboy]

Or it could be like Libby

Did they ever explain if Libby was:

...a former mental patient pretending to be a pyschologist

...a psychologist who had a breakdown; or

...a former mental patient who decided to go into psychology after she was "cured" (unlikely - I don't know that it was established the time between when Hurley was committed and when he boarded the Oceanic flight, but it likely wasn't enough for her to receive the schooling to become a psychologist)

[Dell]

Get some god damn will power, skcirdell

a lifelong labor... :wallbash:

[K.C.]

I really expect that Richard and Ben are keeping Jacob Hostage. To exploit the island to their advantage.

Does anyone think that the message Claire sent out on the bird will ever play a part in anything. I only say this because there is a theory that the Statue folk is something to do with that.

Widmore is in that box!

Maybe to the first part.

No to the second part; I think that whole episode was and ode to Season 1. While Jack, Locke, and all the main characters were falling deeper into the whole Others plot, and the show was taking a darker turn, Claire represented the innocence of most of the other survivors, in that she thought it was still as simple as sending a message for help.

No on the third part. We saw Widmore in LA in the Faraday episode.

[K.C.]

Did they ever explain if Libby was:

...a former mental patient pretending to be a pyschologist

...a psychologist who had a breakdown; or

...a former mental patient who decided to go into psychology after she was "cured" (unlikely - I don't know that it was established the time between when Hurley was committed and when he boarded the Oceanic flight, but it likely wasn't enough for her to receive the schooling to become a psychologist)

They're never going to explain Libby, they've already said. There's a lot of conflicting stories why. The producers have hinted that the actress won't do the show anymore, but they've also hinted that they had a Libby story planned before the writer's strike last year and it got axed.

You just have to piece it together yourself. From what we have to go on, she was a woman who's husband died, she had a nervous breakdown, got out, met Desmond, gave him her boat as part of getting over her husband, and ended up on the island.

Not a great story, but there's not much else to tell about it.

[PD]

the wrappers to hide potential spoilers is a great idea... however, I cannot stop myself from looking even when I don't want to know... damn my fragile will power

There's also another pretty big rumor floating around that the thing leaked earlier this year that PD is referencing about a 'major death' was intentionally leaked by some of the people who work on the show to intentionally throw people off after how many people were spoiled on last year's finale.

It's getting so diluted that I don't really believe any rumor I hear about the show anymore.

In fact, I'm not reading anything about the show this week. I saw the Post had an article on the show a couple days ago and I skipped over it. I don't want to be spoiled.

The Season 3 finale is still one of the best TV episodes I've ever seen and it was because I wasn't spoiled.
the flash forward wasn't spoiled, but much of the rest of the episode had been leaked on Darkufo.com, and I read it. While I still loved the episode I wished after that I had not.

It's a fine line between wanting to know what might happen, and having the surprise ruined.

[disneyspy]

the flash forward wasn't spoiled, but much of the rest of the episode had been leaked on Darkufo.com, and I read it. While I still loved the episode I wished after that I had not.

It's a fine line between wanting to know what might happen, and having the surprise ruined.

as much as i love this show theres no way i can read anything that might spoil it for me,i dont even watch previews,i hate movie trailers and never listen to paulo

[Doctor Manhattan]

<object width="320" height="168"><param name="movie" value="http://www.lost4815162342.com/flash/countdown.swf"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.lost4815162342.com/flash/countdown.swf" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="320" height="168" wmode="transparent"></embed></object>

That is a bit ominous: "The Incident begins in ____"



I was a bit disappointed with last week's Richard centric nature of the episode. While it was an excellent episode it did not even really seem to be a Richard centric episode, more like a noone-centric one like Namaste. I was only disappointed that we did not get any background on Richard who I feel is the most interesting person on the show (I think I feel that way because I really don't know much compared to the other very interesting people)

Watch tonight's episode be a "Rose and Bernard" centric one :dry:

Not complaining, this season is my favorite season of my favorite show of all time, so that's not too shabby!

[Aggie]

<object width="320" height="168"><param name="movie" value="http://www.lost4815162342.com/flash/countdown.swf"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.lost4815162342.com/flash/countdown.swf" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="320" height="168" wmode="transparent"></embed></object>

That is a bit ominous: "The Incident begins in ____"



I was a bit disappointed with last week's Richard centric nature of the episode. While it was an excellent episode it did not even really seem to be a Richard centric episode, more like a noone-centric one like Namaste. I was only disappointed that we did not get any background on Richard who I feel is the most interesting person on the show (I think I feel that way because I really don't know much compared to the other very interesting people)

Watch tonight's episode be a "Rose and Bernard" centric one :dry:

Not complaining, this season is my favorite season of my favorite show of all time, so that's not too shabby!

Love the countdown clock!

In case you don't want to know I read it would be a Kate/Juliet/Sawyer centric episode. So hopefully they will deal with this love triangle once and for all!

[Doctor Manhattan]

Love the countdown clock!

In case you don't want to know I read it would be a Kate/Juliet/Sawyer centric episode. So hopefully they will deal with this love triangle once and for all!

You mean the "Love Quadrangle":

Check out this banner at ABC.com (http://abc.go.com/media/primetime/lost09/images/callouts/951x111_lostShowdown_quadrangle_01.jpg)

If they are centering on those 3, then Jack has to be involved at some level. I have always found that to be the least interesting part of the show, well Sawyer and Juliet are a bit interesting, but exploring it more that just these past few episodes is not something I care about.I love that clock too.

[Pestz4Evah]

FYI...Matthew Fox is on Jimmy Kimmel Live after the show tonight.

[disneyspy]

an hour to go,im excited and sad at the same time

[Doctor Manhattan]

an hour to go,im excited and sad at the same time

I am too, only 17 hours left after tonight, and we have to wait 8 months to see them...

[hammersavage]

10 minutes :clap:

[TooLowBrow]

can someone recap the first few mins? i missed the opening!!:wallbash:

[BlackSpider]

we meet Jacob.
And the ship at sea may be the Black Rock...

[BlackSpider]

I knew that was Kate...

[Annie Waits]

what's in the box?

[extracheese]

what's in the box?

A shitload of porno VCR tapes.


Wow - didnt know that 1977 VW beetle vans were bullet proof. The bullets ricocheted off of the metallic blue paint like rain drops.

[Finditguy]

A shitload of porno VCR tapes.


Wow - didnt know that 1977 VW beetle vans were bullet proof. The bullets ricocheted off of the metallic blue paint like rain drops.

lol your probably right :drunk:

[IamFogHat]

Donde esta Jacob?

[IamFogHat]

Ben: "I'm a Pisces." :laugh:

[BlackSpider]

Sun found DisneySpy's ring...

[KatPw]

Sun found DisneySpy's ring...

:lol:

[TooLowBrow]

Sun found DisneySpy's ring...

haha

[extracheese]

Everything That Rises Must Converge is a collection of short stories written by Flannery O'Connor during her final illness. The title of the collection and of the short story is taken from a passage from the work of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. The collection was published posthumously in 1965. It includes an introduction by Robert Fitzgerald, and nine stories.

[KatPw]

Everything That Rises Must Converge is a collection of short stories written by Flannery O'Connor during her final illness. The title of the collection and of the short story is taken from a passage from the work of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. The collection was published posthumously in 1965. It includes an introduction by Robert Fitzgerald, and nine stories.

I love Flannery O'Connor, but I am not familiar with this particular collection. I'm gonna have to see if the library has it :thumbup:

[IamFogHat]

It's always about a woman.

[MIKEYDAKEN]

that fight should have happenend years ago

[Foster]

technically it happened over 30 years ago

[MIKEYDAKEN]

good point sir

[IamFogHat]

I'm so fright-ened.

[IamFogHat]

I'm not saying this in a bad way at all, but this is the craziest story arch of maybe any TV show I've ever seen.

[IamFogHat]

Fuckin' Sayid deactivated it!

[Cyber Trucker]

They killed Juliet.........BOOOOOOOOO:furious:

[Doogie]

Did Lost just do an homage to Cliffhanger??

[IamFogHat]

Where the fuck is everyone? The last six minutes or so of this show made my body implode into itself with tension. This is the season finale motherfuckers, post!!!

[TooLowBrow]

did richard say something like 'the one who knows all'?

[MIKEYDAKEN]

now sawyer should take kate and make jack into a cucold

[IamFogHat]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[KatPw]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Exactly.

[Cyber Trucker]

These motherfuckers I hate how they end it I want More!!!!!!!!:furious:

[Foster]

do you think Juliet is going to be ok?

[extracheese]

I am blown away by the awesomeness of this show!
I feel truly honored to be witness to the greatness that is LOST!

HOW WILL I MAKE IT TILL 2010??

[MIKEYDAKEN]

no. no one is ok except rose and bernie and the dog

[JDE]

we have to wait till jan to see what happens next?


nooooooo.


I called it early on after the first two minutes on the beach about what was going on, but holy shit was that good.

so this show really is all about the good and the bad, and heaven and hell I guess.


I think I will go watch it again in a little while, it's hard for something to live up to the hype, but for me, it did.

what did everyone else think?


jason

[K.C.]

do you think Juliet is going to be ok?

Why wouldn't she be? They hit the reset button.

But I think it's important to note that the reset button didn't hit because of Jack/Faraday's plan...it was because Zombie Locke killed Jacob.

Jacob was the catalyst for the time loop, and it would appear that he and his brother (Esau??) were living it eternally.

When Jacob dies, the loop is broken which freed Juliet to detonate the bomb.

So everyone resets.

I don't know that it stops the crash. The crash was a result of what happened in the hatch. That presumably will always happen.

But, it now creates a season in which we see an alternative route without Jacob as the the driving force.



That was at least what I was left with.

[drusilla]

Did Lost just do an homage to Cliffhanger??

i was thinking armageddon


but i was fucking balling my eyes out with sawyer & juliet.

then i was just sitting here dumbfounded when they showed what was in the box.

holy shit this might have been the greatest episode ever

[KingGeno]

Holy. The return of the Black vs. White, just liek the occasional black and white eyes, black and white marbles, etc. Jacob = White, Marrack (?) = Black Even the new end of show drops is white now. Seems like people now know what they need to do in life.

What's up with Jacob touching only the Losties?!?!?


Oh man oh man. Gonna be wrapping my brain around this one like crazy

[TooLowBrow]

no. no one is ok except rose and bernie and the dog

and all of the people at the barracks

[drusilla]

But, it now creates a season in which we see an alternative route without Jacob as the the driving force.

That was at least what I was left with.

that's brilliant. i wonder if they'll go that way because now i'm really intrigued.

[IamFogHat]

Holy. The return of the Black vs. White, just liek the occasional black and white eyes, black and white marbles, etc. Jacob = White, Marrack (?) = Black Even the new end of show drops is white now. Seems like people now know what they need to do in life.

What's up with Jacob touching only the Losties?!?!?


Oh man oh man. Gonna be wrapping my brain around this one like crazy

Someones drunk.
Yet I agree completely, I wonder why.

[KingGeno]

Someones drunk.
Yet I agree completely, I wonder why.

Because it is you that are drunk, and you are playing evil mind tricks on me to think I am drunk?!?


But seriously, I guess that statue afterall was the Mayan statue that stood for Fertility. Wonder how it got destroyed. Hmm.

And I wonder who the new baddie in black is and what his purpose is. Seems like the devil to me.

[JDE]

Why wouldn't she be? They hit the reset button.

But I think it's important to note that the reset button didn't hit because of Jack/Faraday's plan...it was because Zombie Locke killed Jacob.

Jacob was the catalyst for the time loop, and it would appear that he and his brother (Esau??) were living it eternally.

When Jacob dies, the loop is broken which freed Juliet to detonate the bomb.

So everyone resets.

I don't know that it stops the crash. The crash was a result of what happened in the hatch. That presumably will always happen.

But, it now creates a season in which we see an alternative route without Jacob as the the driving force.



That was at least what I was left with.


Why was Jacob the cause of the time loop?

To me, he saying the human race is good and if given a choice they will do the right thing, where as his brother? if that is who it is, is saying no humanity is destined to destroy everything and they keep on setting up new gardens of eden so to speak, to see how we as humans react.

Now if I am right, how did he create the time loop and for what purpose, I think the other guy is more likely to have done that somehow, but what do I know, my head is spinning.


Jason

[K.C.]

I just had another thought...

If Jacob dies in 2007, but what Jack does negates them coming to the island, then Jacob never dies.

So it's possible that Jacob always foresaw his death, and arranged for the events in 1977 to play out as they did to negate his own death.

I don't know.

I have to watch this episode like six more times to wrap my head around it.

[Dan G]

Why was Jacob the cause of the time loop?

To me, he saying the human race is good and if given a choice they will do the right thing, where as his brother? if that is who it is, is saying no humanity is destined to destroy everything and they keep on setting up new gardens of eden so to speak, to see how we as humans react.

Now if I am right, how did he create the time loop and for what purpose, I think the other guy is more likely to have done that somehow, but what do I know, my head is spinning.


Jason

The other guy took over Locke's body. I'd assume that would be Jacob's brother, Esau.

[HBox]

I just had another thought...

If Jacob dies in 2007, but what Jack does negates them coming to the island, then Jacob never dies.

So it's possible that Jacob always foresaw his death, and arranged for the events in 1977 to play out as they did to negate his own death.

I don't know.

I have to watch this episode like six more times to wrap my head around it.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Let's think back to season one and Locke explaining backgammon to Walt. White vs. Black. Always be one step ahead of your opponent. Jacob didn't interfere with the Losties in any consistent way. With Kate and Sawyer he was essentially enabling negative behaviors. Perhaps he was just doing what he could to get them to come to the island in the first place. I think Jacob wanted to be killed. What he said to Ben was about the most inflammatory thing he could have possibly said. He wanted that to happen.

[hammersavage]

I just had another thought...

If Jacob dies in 2007, but what Jack does negates them coming to the island, then Jacob never dies.

So it's possible that Jacob always foresaw his death, and arranged for the events in 1977 to play out as they did to negate his own death.

I don't know.

I have to watch this episode like six more times to wrap my head around it.

I hope not, that's kinda weak.



Did I semi called the Locke thing? I really don't know. I always thought the same thing would happen to Locke's that happened to Jack's fathers body on the island. That's why I kept asking about it if Christian was definitely dead. If we were seeing zombie Christian, then it was apparent we were always seeing zombie Locke.

[TooLowBrow]

jacob and his enemy

one can raise the dead the other can summon and control them?

who placed the ash ring, who erased the one part?

if that trapped jacob then the break was made back in the 70's, at least, cause jacob was free to leave the island to see some of the losties as kids



jacob saved lockes life once, why didnt he this time?

who is the major character that died..

locke (officially)?
juliet?
sayid?

[HBox]

jacob and his enemy

one can raise the dead the other can summon and control them?

who placed the ash ring, who erased the one part?

if that trapped jacob then the break was made back in the 70's, at least, cause jacob was free to leave the island to see some of the losties as kids



jacob saved lockes life once, why didnt he this time?

who is the major character that died..

locke (officially)?
juliet?
sayid?

If the bomb actually went off..... all of them?

[hammersavage]

Jacob saw Losties in the 70's and in modern day after they left the island

[TooLowBrow]

why was the smoke monster fooled by zombie locke?

[TooLowBrow]

If the bomb actually went off..... all of them?

i will guarantee that jack, kate, and hurley live. possibly sawyer and ben too.

sawyer will definitely live if juliets dead

thats just the way that network tv works

[HBox]

why was the smoke monster fooled by zombie locke?

Perhaps the smoke monster IS zombie Locke?

[TooLowBrow]

Perhaps the smoke monster IS zombie Locke?

ifso then the smoke monster wants jacob dead

[HBox]

ifso then the smoke monster wants jacob dead

And the black shirt guy from the beginning is the smoke monster, who is zombie Locke.

I don't know, those two hours were a mind rape.

[TooLowBrow]

did richard say something like 'the one who knows all'?

"What lies in the shadow of the statue?" with Ille qui nos omnes servabit - “He who will protect/save us all.”

i suck

[SP1!]

do you think Juliet is going to be ok?

Im sure shes fine, got a nice suntan but shes fine

I just had another thought...

If Jacob dies in 2007, but what Jack does negates them coming to the island, then Jacob never dies.

So it's possible that Jacob always foresaw his death, and arranged for the events in 1977 to play out as they did to negate his own death.

I don't know.

I have to watch this episode like six more times to wrap my head around it.

Or if miles is right then this is the incident that set all of the events in motion to begin with, the other island is still there for sun and locke 30 years in the future so it cant be blown up

[ChrisTheCop]

Due to events at work, I was unable to watch "live", and I was pissed.
Just finished watching the tivo, and may I say once again... I LOVE THIS FUCKING SHOW!!!!

First, seeing Cuse and Lindeloff wrote both hours, you knew you were gonna get paid off.

Black Rock, Boom. Jacob, Boom. Another cast member from Deadwood, Boom!

Doogie mentioned Cliffhanger, but the first movie I thought of as I watched Jacob and Titus Welliver discuss the nature of man was Trading Places. He and Jacob are basically the Duke brothers. I was hoping one of them would explain that I might find bacon in a bacon lettuce and tomato sandwich.

Also-- Sawyer wants to talk to Jack before he blows up the station, ok...but does anyone care to mention that Sayid is dying in the van? It was a pressing issue just seconds ago, but now the 2 boys wanna talk... anywho...

I never cared about Juliette until I saw her getting pulled into the earth; that was pretty emotional... and when she picked up the rock... I immediately forgave them for having her survive what mustve been a crushing landing. I was on my feet cheering!

Show me whats in the box!!! Dont you dare wait til next season..I wanna know NOW!!! And then...chills!! Some people above are saying Titus took over Locke's body; absolutely untrue for there it was for all to see, lifeless... he simply took his image. And as for "fooling" the smoke monster, I dont think any such thing happened. It only told Ben to follow (who Ben believed to be) Locke's every command...setting him up to be the man who kills Jacob. So...Titus is also the smoke monster, as he has previously taken other's images. Sorry I'm calling him Titus, thats the actor, but I didnt catch his character name.

And we got an explanation as to what happened to Dr Chang's hand.

I suppose Juliette is the character who "died" although I believe her actions will mean she's okay in the future too. I'm not quite sure when the island starts fucking up the birth process, but perhaps theres never a need for her to come to the island now...?

2009 is gonna be a long year.

[TooLowBrow]

And as for "fooling" the smoke monster, I dont think any such thing happened. It only told Ben to follow (who Ben believed to be) Locke's every command...setting him up to be the man who kills Jacob. So...Titus is also the smoke monster, as he has previously taken other's images. Sorry I'm calling him Titus, thats the actor, but I didnt catch his character name.

.

the smoke monster has killed and seems uncontrollable

jacob has only been seen(on screen) to help and be passive

to me this puts ben in the position as unlikely hero once again

[drusilla]

so is it safe to say that christian shepard on the island was really esau/jacob's brother/dark hair guy?

[TooLowBrow]

so is it safe to say that christian shepard on the island was really esau/jacob's brother/dark hair guy?

and also claire and all the people who 'visited' hurley while he was crazy


maybe also the horse that kate saw too

[drusilla]

And we got an explanation as to what happened to Dr Chang's hand.



what happened to his hand? i don't know if i ever noticed anything.

[JDE]

so is it safe to say that christian shepard on the island was really esau/jacob's brother/dark hair guy?

No I think Christian is speaking for Jacob, he has only done what we would consider good things in trying to help people on the island and off, I think.


So one thing not mentioned yet, we now know for a fact Richard is from Black Rock, and a big question is who exactly is Ilana?

[TooLowBrow]

No I think Christian is speaking for Jacob, he has only done what we would consider good things in trying to help people on the island and off, I think.


So one thing not mentioned yet, we now know for a fact Richard is from Black Rock, and a big question is who exactly is Ilana?

1 christian told locke to kill himself

2 i missed the richard black rock connection...? why?

3 yeah, why was her face all injured?

that 815 team sure doesnt hurry, i never saw them even jog and they got there about 20 minutes too late

[drusilla]

1 christian told locke to kill himself



^^^

[JDE]

1 christian told locke to kill himself

2 i missed the richard black rock connection...? why?

3 yeah, why was her face all injured?

that 815 team sure doesnt hurry, i never saw them even jog and they got there about 20 minutes too late

1 you're right, that just hit me after I posted, so then this was the plan to kill jacob all along, to get locke to kill himself get the 815ers to come back so he could use locke's body to get someone ben to kill jacob for him.

so then that cabin, it was never jacob at all, it was the other guy trapped, and claire and christian are with him?

my head is so spinning, lol.

the richard black rock connection is just what he said, how about he has been there a long time, and jacob made him that way. I guess he could be there even longer than the black rock, back to the Egyptians maybe, but I am assuming no one was on the island when the episode began, and they had the conversation on the beach looking at the boat.

[TooLowBrow]

^^^

before locke got sent back to the real world christian led him to the wheel and said that ben messed things up and that only locke could save things, and that hed have to die to do it

again ben seems like the foil to this zombie monsters plans

[drusilla]

on the time loop theory page they say that richard is one of the descendants of the people on the black rock. when was this hinted at on the show?

[JDE]

what happened to his hand? i don't know if i ever noticed anything.

Some of the equipment fell on his arm, Miles helped him escape.

Or if you''re asking about his hand having been injured before, that's in regards to some of the videos, where his arm is limp in them.

[JDE]

I am so confused with what side Christian is on, I know he told Locke to do everything, but then he was there with Sun, and seemed to be telling her things, that would not lead you to think he was on the side of wrong.

Is it possible he is on both sides, and Jacob and the other guy are both using him as a vessel?

[drusilla]

Some of the equipment fell on his arm, Miles helped him escape.

Or if you''re asking about his hand having been injured before, that's in regards to some of the videos, where his arm is limp in them.

that's what i was talking about, i never noticed anything in the videos. his arm being injured & miles yelling "dad!" was actually one of my favorite parts of tonights episode. so so so many good things in the episode tonight.

[TooLowBrow]

I am so confused with what side Christian is on, I know he told Locke to do everything, but then he was there with Sun, and seemed to be telling her things, that would not lead you to think he was on the side of wrong.

Is it possible he is on both sides, and Jacob and the other guy are both using him as a vessel?

christian told frank and sun that they have a long journey ahead

then he gave sun the old dharma photo with jin in it

so sun (and frank) trust christian, because he was nice to them

then he told them to wait for locke and implied that they should follow him
(which wasnt tough as they already liked him and saw his coming back from the dead as impressive)

[TooLowBrow]

is richards 'he'll be one of us' line about young ben foreshadowing his zombie status?

i think ben is an eventual hero, but if late in the game it shows that as a kid -jacobs enemy- converted him to evil dead status like locke... that would make sense

[JDE]

christian told frank and sun that they have a long journey ahead

then he gave sun the old dharma photo with jin in it

so sun (and frank) trust christian, because he was nice to them

then he told them to wait for locke and implied that they should follow him
(which wasnt tough as they already liked him and saw his coming back from the dead as impressive)

okay so, there is no way jacob could have been using him because he would know locke was really dead, and as ben and daniel I think said, dead is dead.


So then all this time it has not been jacob in that cabin with christian and claire, but mr dark side, and anytime we see anyone it is from the dark side, where as jacob does his stuff in person?



I feel like I need to watch the entire series again to try and piece this all together.


Jason

[TooLowBrow]

Fake Locke transformed into Fake Alex and scared Ben into being his willing puppet.

i should start a ben is the eventual hero thread

[JDE]

i should start a ben is the eventual hero thread
Quote:
Fake Locke transformed into Fake Alex and scared Ben into being his willing puppet.



see this was one thing that stuck out to me, that can't be right, because locke was surprised it seemed, when ben said that about alex, so if he was in fact both, he would not have been surprised there.

[ChrisTheCop]

the smoke monster has killed and seems uncontrollable

jacob has only been seen(on screen) to help and be passive

to me this puts ben in the position as unlikely hero once again

I dunno what youre trying to tell me here.

If you mean the smoke monster (if that is one of Titus Welliver's incarnations) wouldnt need Ben to kill Jacob, simply because we've seen him kill as the smoke monster, I disagree. He can kill all he wants, but there is one person, that for whatever reason, he is not allowed to kill (he was looking for a loophole), and thats Jacob. Theyre playing by similar rules as Ben and Widmore--theyre not allowed to kill each other. How does Ben killing Jacob make Ben a hero? Jacob is the good guy (in white) being killed by the man in black.

And Ricardus isnt necessarily of the Black Rock, as Jacob and Titus's convo on the beach seems to indicate the Black Rock was not man's first visit to the island... they implied what would happen is what always happens.

As for "Locke" acting surprised that Ben saw the smoke monster in the temple... perhaps thats exactly what it was; acting. Titus is the ultimate con man.

[K.C.]

Or if miles is right then this is the incident that set all of the events in motion to begin with, the other island is still there for sun and locke 30 years in the future so it cant be blown up

My problem with this explanation is that if this is true, everyone at the Swan site is now dead, which is basically every major character.

So unless they're doing Damon & Carlton's much joked about Zombie season, that doesn't work.

Plus, there were little things scattered throughout that suggest they changed time. For instance, the thing with Pierre Chang and Miles at the end?

Remember the DHARMA videos? Pierre Chang's arm was suppose to get ripped off during the Incident, hence the prosthetic he has in all the 80s DHARMA videos.

Miles ends up saving that from happening.


So, I don't foresee any explanation in which they didn't make an enormous change to everything.


Where I'm getting lost on it is this:

Where do they go now, and what's Jacob's fate?

They essentially created an alternate timeline by virtue of a time paradox in which the Swan never gets built because a nuclear bomb was detonated.

So really, everyone in the original timeline at the Swan site should be dead, so that everyone in the new timeline never come to the island (or so they think).

Now we saw Jacob pay visits to a lot of the people pre-island, and physically touch them as if to 'mark' them for passage to the island in the original timeline.

What's the nature of Jacob's existence? There was stuff in the dialog that kind of made me think that he was eternally living everything that happened on a loop along with the other man. If that's true, then he doesn't exist in the next loop, now that he's dead. That's interesting, because we saw that Locke actually died back in 2000 when his father pushed him out a window, and that Jacob breathed life back into him. So is Locke not only dead, but will he never come to the island, because he died beforehand now?

If, however, what happened at the Swan negates Jacob's death 30 years into the future, then Jacob will still do everything that he originally did.

Which brings up another question...did Jacob bring them to the island, or did Desmond not pushing the Swan button do that?

If Jacob brought 815 to the island, then the Swan never mattered.

I tend to think, though, that while Jacob may have arranged the survivors like a chess board, that he needs certain incidents to physically get the people he wants on the island. So I do think the Swan ultimately is responsible for the crash.

So maybe, we're left with 815 never crashing, but Jacob getting those people to the island a different way.

[mikeyboy]

I watched the finale with my wife last night, who had never seen a single episode. I did my best to explain everything that was going on, but at this point, it's pretty much impossible to do so without sounding like you're making it up as you go along. I was painting with pretty broad strokes too. For instance, when my wife asked how Sun knew her husband was in the past, I was able to explain without bringing Jack's dead father into the mix. It was tough because simple explanations lead to questions that had little to do with the finale ("if that little boy is Sawyer, why is he writing a letter to Sawyer?"). She also had lots of questions where my answer was "at this point, we don't know.". Ultimately, as it went along and she could focus on the big issues (plane crash - bomb - altering timeline, Ben and Locke going to kill Jacob) she was able to get into it and enjoy the show.
All through the episode, I couldn't remember where I'd seen the actor who plays Jacob before, but I knew I'd seen him play an abusive husband. Then I realized that he played Rita's junkie, criminal husband on Dexter.

[Foster]

OK this is how I see it
Jacob = Mikeyboy
Titus = Gvac

[Doctor Manhattan]

is richards 'he'll be one of us' line about young ben foreshadowing his zombie status?

Was that line from last night?

[SP1!]

before locke got sent back to the real world christian led him to the wheel and said that ben messed things up and that only locke could save things, and that hed have to die to do it

again ben seems like the foil to this zombie monsters plans
We are all forgetting the swerve here, maybe ben, feed up with not being able to see or speak to jacob decided to seek out esau to punish jacob? I refuse to think of ben as anything but a manipulative evil bastard.


All through the episode, I couldn't remember where I'd seen the actor who plays Jacob before, but I knew I'd seen him play an abusive husband. Then I realized that he played Rita's junkie, criminal husband on Dexter.
You have more patience than me to explain all that, it would have been impossible and maddening to someone who has never watched the show. But yeah he was a little scruffier looking but he was the junkie from dexter, I dont think hes dead though thats a great character killed off too soon.

[Dan G]

All through the episode, I couldn't remember where I'd seen the actor who plays Jacob before, but I knew I'd seen him play an abusive husband. Then I realized that he played Rita's junkie, criminal husband on Dexter.

He was also one of Jackie Treehorn's thugs.

http://dudespaper.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/lebowski623.jpg

[JerseyRich]

I watched the finale with my wife last night, who had never seen a single episode. I did my best to explain everything that was going on, but at this point, it's pretty much impossible to do so without sounding like you're making it up as you go along. I was painting with pretty broad strokes too. For instance, when my wife asked how Sun knew her husband was in the past, I was able to explain without bringing Jack's dead father into the mix. It was tough because simple explanations lead to questions that had little to do with the finale ("if that little boy is Sawyer, why is he writing a letter to Sawyer?"). She also had lots of questions where my answer was "at this point, we don't know.". Ultimately, as it went along and she could focus on the big issues (plane crash - bomb - altering timeline, Ben and Locke going to kill Jacob) she was able to get into it and enjoy the show.
All through the episode, I couldn't remember where I'd seen the actor who plays Jacob before, but I knew I'd seen him play an abusive husband. Then I realized that he played Rita's junkie, criminal husband on Dexter.

You win the award for most patient husband in the world. There is no way I could sit with someone that hasn't seen an episode and attempt to explain all that...especially because I don't fully understand it myself.

[fezident]

I just gotta pick some nits:

Juliette surviving a fall hundreds/thousands of feet deep into a hole full of sharp, hard, damaged metal..... SOMEHOW LANDING UNDERNEATH ALL OF IT (??!?!), and waking up with enough energy to bang on the bomb (which was disabled?!?!) with a tiny rock and setting it off (even though the impact from the fall didn't detonate it?!) is probably the most ridiculous thing this show -or any other show in history- has ever ever ever done.

This is not a "suspension of disbelief" issue. This is just plain stupidity.

[Dan G]

I just gotta pick some nits:

Juliette surviving a fall hundreds/thousands of feet deep into a hole full of sharp, hard, damaged metal..... SOMEHOW LANDING UNDERNEATH ALL OF IT (??!?!), and waking up with enough energy to bang on the bomb (which was disabled?!?!) with a tiny rock and setting it off (even though the impact from the fall didn't detonate it?!) is probably the most ridiculous thing this show -or any other show in history- has ever ever ever done.

This is not a "suspension of disbelief" issue. This is just plain stupidity.

Perhaps when Jacob died,which was pretty much simultaneous as to when Juliet woke up, he entered her body, much like how it appears that Esau has become Locke.

[PhishHead]

Perhaps when Jacob died,which was pretty much simultaneous as to when Juliet woke up, he entered her body, much like how it appears that Esau has become Locke.

Esau didn't become locke. As we see Locke's body. Esau just took on his appearance.

[Dan G]

Esau didn't become locke. As we see Locke's body. Esau just took on his appearance.

That's what I meant.

[Doctor Manhattan]

I just gotta pick some nits:

Juliette surviving a fall hundreds/thousands of feet deep into a hole full of sharp, hard, damaged metal..... SOMEHOW LANDING UNDERNEATH ALL OF IT (??!?!), and waking up with enough energy to bang on the bomb (which was disabled?!?!) with a tiny rock and setting it off (even though the impact from the fall didn't detonate it?!) is probably the most ridiculous thing this show -or any other show in history- has ever ever ever done.

This is not a "suspension of disbelief" issue. This is just plain stupidity.

I was thinking that somehow the pocket of energy/magnetism that is pulling metal down the hole somehow pushes against it when it gets close enough, or there is a pocket of magnetism pulling in another direction.

Because if the fall did not detonate the bomb that was set to go off on impact, then how would a rock hitting it? And she should have been killed if it was a simple fall down the hole.

I do hope they explain it.

[fezident]

I hope so too but, it seems unlikely that they will offer a satisfying explanation.

I mean.... Jack drops the bomb in there all by itself.
Then there's a scene -several minutes long- of every metal object in the vicinity being sucked into the hole. Entire cranes.... tools.... supplies... chains... EVERYTHING....
... then a few minutes later, Juliette gets sucked in too. And not only is she alive (?!?!) but she on the floor of the structure and the bomb is within arms distance??

Nigga please.

[JerseyRich]

I hope so too but, it seems unlikely that they will offer a satisfying explanation.

I mean.... Jack drops the bomb in there all by itself.
Then there's a scene -several minutes long- of every metal object in the vicinity being sucked into the hole. Entire cranes.... tools.... supplies... chains... EVERYTHING....
... then a few minutes later, Juliette gets sucked in too. And not only is she alive (?!?!) but she on the floor of the structure and the bomb is within arms distance??

Nigga please.

Not to mention, the lighting at the bottom of the hole was pretty good.

[CHUCKWAGONCOOK]

OK...Check it out.


Upon falling down the hole with all the debris in it, she bounced off all of it (kinda like falling down a tree, hitting the limbs) cushioning her fall until the very bottom where she was half broken. People have achieved great strengths when in terrible perils before. Fact.

The wonderful lighting in the bottom of the well (yes, the well) is due to the amount of reflective material that was sucked into it. Simple.

And her hitting the bomb hard enough to set it off, when the fall of the bomb wasn't enough......you're wrong. No nuclear bomb blown up.

The white flash we saw was a time change and it'll show her hitting a test tube on the laboratory floor when the last season continues.

But she and all the rest that have changed time AND space. All the losties will have a sense of urgancy to return to the island. Once again.

Que Desmonds Mom once again to help them return to the island.

[JerseyRich]

OK...Check it out.


Upon falling down the hole with all the debris in it, she bounced off all of it (kinda like falling down a tree, hitting the limbs) cushioning her fall until the very bottom where she was half broken. People have achieved great strengths when in terrible perils before. Fact.

The wonderful lighting in the bottom of the well (yes, the well) is due to the amount of reflective material that was sucked into it. Simple.

And her hitting the bomb hard enough to set it off, when the fall of the bomb wasn't enough......you're wrong. No nuclear bomb blown up.

The white flash we saw was a time change and it'll show her hitting a test tube on the laboratory floor when the last season continues.

But she and all the rest that have changed time AND space. All the losties will have a sense of urgancy to return to the island. Once again.

Que Desmonds Mom once again to help them return to the island.

Farraday's Mom.

[SP1!]

Wow, someone on another board just posted something that seems strange, what if the flash we saw at the end was just another flash through time?


Oh and juliet falling and living is not that big of a deal, remember locke fell into the well and survived with just a broken leg.

Doh, didnt see chucks post, it very well could have been a normal time jump flash, they all wake up in the 90s with flannel shirts on!!!!!!

[Dan G]

I think the time change will bring them to whenever the boat landed on Black Rock. So instead of them being on flight 815, now they'll all be shipwrecked. The final season will be much like the first.

[K.C.]

Wow, someone on another board just posted something that seems strange, what if the flash we saw at the end was just another flash through time?


Oh and juliet falling and living is not that big of a deal, remember locke fell into the well and survived with just a broken leg.

Doh, didnt see chucks post, it very well could have been a normal time jump flash, they all wake up in the 90s with flannel shirts on!!!!!!

It WAS a time flash, but as a result of the bomb detonating...as soon as that happened, they were no longer suppose to be there because none of it ever happened. It's not like the flashes from before, though...they changed their own history, so it was a flash to a new or revised timeline where none of this happened

[ChrisTheCop]

It WAS a time flash, but as a result of the bomb detonating...as soon as that happened, they were no longer suppose to be there because none of it ever happened. It's not like the flashes from before, though...they changed their own history, so it was a flash to a new or revised timeline where none of this happened

I wish it was a time change to 2010.

[hammersavage]

The biblical story behind Jacob and Esau is pretty cool.



And that in real life Desmond named his three children: Elias, Lucas and Esau

[Aggie]

1 christian told locke to kill himself

2 i missed the richard black rock connection...? why?

3 yeah, why was her face all injured?

that 815 team sure doesnt hurry, i never saw them even jog and they got there about 20 minutes too late

What did Christian say because I don't remember? I thought it was actually Richard who told John he would have to die. And then we see later is was actually zombie Locke who told Richard to go tell real Locke to do it.

Do you think Jacob's brother can be a shapeshifter type or just able to use dead bodies?

[K.C.]

What did Christian say because I don't remember? I thought it was actually Richard who told John he would have to die. And then we see later is was actually zombie Locke who told Richard to go tell real Locke to do it.

Do you think Jacob's brother can be a shapeshifter type or just able to use dead bodies?

I think it's very likely that Esau is the Smoke Monster. And that the person in the beginning was a manifestation. We had never seen Jacob before last night. Everything that we previously saw, including Christian, was Smokey/Esau.

It raises questions about Elie and Widmore...after the Faraday incident, did Esau recruit them in the war against Jacob under the guise that they could change the horrible realty that Eleanor eternally is suppose to murder her son? Was everything Widmore was doing designed to change time? That would go a long way in explaning the 'wrong side will win' comment he makes to Lpcke about going back

[Furtherman]

Wow, what an experience. So many great things from last nights episode. Before I read my fellow RFnetter Losties, I have to jot down my own "greats".

First of all, right away, we get Jacob and his bother sitting on the beach. Jacob in a white shirt, his brother in a black shirt. Locke's 1st season Backgammon explanation: "One is white, one is black"... brilliant.

Ben & Locke - what a great pair. Lock's statement to Ben "You did all this for a man you never met!" was such a punch to Ben's psyche. And when Locke gave Ben that knife, I though for sure he was going to stab Locke!

DriveShaft ring - "That's not my guitar"... could we see Charlie next season?

Miles with more great lines: "I'm glad you all thought this through!" "Time travel? No, that would be ridiculous!"

Finally seeing Nadia's death. Wow... and all because of Jacob. And speaking of Sayid - did he put on ROGER'S WORKMAN uniform when he tried to escape with Jack??!! Isn't that the same uniform found on the skeleton in the Dharma Van in the episode "Trisha Takanoma Is Dead"?? Could that not be Ben's Dad but actually Sayid?!

And did everyone else just have a huge smile on their face seeing Rose & Bernard - with Vincent no less!!! So glad to see them - but I think their story may be done and we won't see them next year, which would be a shame.

Sawyer - I loved the little nod to Sawyer's first con - when he lied to Jacob as a little kid. The look on that kid's face, surprised that someone would believe his lie - was priceless.

Sawyer and Juliet - I called Juliet's death a while ago but it was heartbreaking to see her fall down that hole. But wait - she's alive! Or will she be???

The moment before when the bomb fell down that hole - edge of my seat and it felt like it lasted much longer.

"This don't look like LAX" HA!

DESTINY FOUND - 2010 ARRRHHGGG!!

Ahh well... I can't wait to re-watch this season. The best one so far - how could they top it??!

[fezident]

OK...Check it out.


Upon falling down the hole with all the debris in it, she bounced off all of it (kinda like falling down a tree, hitting the limbs) cushioning her fall until the very bottom where she was half broken. People have achieved great strengths when in terrible perils before. Fact.

The wonderful lighting in the bottom of the well (yes, the well) is due to the amount of reflective material that was sucked into it. Simple.

.

Nah man.
The camera SHOWED her free-falling so far down that hole that she actually disappeared into the darkness. That fall should've killed her instantly. Broken vehicles and construction rigs could never, ever, "cushion her fall". This has nothing in common with falling out of a tree where your're literally standing on the first branch that might break your fall. PLUS, she didn't fall. She was being "tractor beamed" down to the bottom with the same force that demolished a fucking crane.

Again... I know I'm being a nitpicker but, on a show that supposedly this "smart"... the writers really underestimated me with that last scene.

[BrooklynKat]

I'm taking this Egyptian thing literally (not so much with the old testament interpretation that people seem to like). I'm thinking: Jacob = Osiris and other dude = Seth

Seth is the god of chaos who killed his own brother, Osiris, in order to rule.
He is also the officiator at the weighing of the heart ceremony, which took place after death. If you lived a bad life, then your soul would be consumed by the demon Ammit. The 3-toed statue that Jacob lives in looks like Ammit to me.
This whole retelling of everyone's past seems to coincide nicely with my theory that these people are being judged.
Also smoke monster seems to be a judge of some kind. Might be a reinterpretation of Egyptian god Apophis (snake god of destruction, also linked with Seth's myth).

Can't wait to see how this actually plays out next season.

[Furtherman]

we meet Jacob.
And the ship at sea may be the Black Rock...

I was so hoping to get the backstory of The Black Rock. I think that ship and the statue are the only two mystery objects left on the island to explain, whereas I think the Temple is part of the statue.


who placed the ash ring, who erased the one part?

locke (officially)?
juliet?
sayid?

Locke in the box was a huge surprise... because Zombie Locke had so many of his characteristics, I just don't see him as a "taken-on" form by Smokey or Jacob's brother.

Also-- Sawyer wants to talk to Jack before he blows up the station, ok...but does anyone care to mention that Sayid is dying in the van? It was a pressing issue just seconds ago, but now the 2 boys wanna talk... anywho...

That killed me too!!! Hey Doc, sit down, the bleeding profusely Iraqi can wait!

That's why I don't know if Sayid will live - whatever happened at the end. Time flash or bomb.

on the time loop theory page they say that richard is one of the descendants of the people on the black rock. when was this hinted at on the show?

He did admit that he was on the island "for a very long time". Did he find some kind of fountain of youth on the island back then?

It WAS a time flash, but as a result of the bomb detonating...

So if the time flash carries everyone out of there - does the bomb still destroy the Swan site?

Oh man.... 7 1/2 months to 2010.

[The Jays]

With the whole zombie Locke thing/guy taking on the form of Locke, if he's not Locke, how does he know to give Richard the compass and have him give it to John in the jungle?

Still no clue on what's in the guitar case.

Just wanna be sure on something, but Jacob's cabin isn't Rose and Benard's cabin?

If that van that Sayid is in, wearing the Roger uniform, is the same van that Hurley found, then there would have to be beer in the back.

Where the fuck is Claire? And for that matter, why are we only relieved to know that Rose and Bernard are alive, what about the rest of the 815 people? Did they all get shot with flaming arrows?

[TooLowBrow]

If you mean the smoke monster (if that is one of Titus Welliver's incarnations) wouldnt need Ben to kill Jacob, simply because we've seen him kill as the smoke monster, I disagree. He can kill all he wants, but there is one person, that for whatever reason, he is not allowed to kill (he was looking for a loophole), and thats Jacob. Theyre playing by similar rules as Ben and Widmore--theyre not allowed to kill each other. How does Ben killing Jacob make Ben a hero? Jacob is the good guy (in white) being killed by the man in black.

i think jacob was the hero of the island. his enemy couldnt kill him himself, but was able to figure a way for ben to do it.

ben shouldnt have, but he did.

now with jacob out of the way, evil locke/smoke monster will reign supreme.

it will be up to ben and the new others to stop him, thus ben will be a hero

Finally seeing Nadia's death. Wow... and all because of Jacob. And speaking of Sayid - did he put on ROGER'S WORKMAN uniform when he tried to escape with Jack??!! Isn't that the same uniform found on the skeleton in the Dharma Van in the episode "Trisha Takanoma Is Dead"?? Could that not be Ben's Dad but actually Sayid?!

no because we saw bens dad die

[Furtherman]

no because we saw bens dad die

I know, but I think Sayid had the same uniform on.... so it could end up being him.

[TooLowBrow]

I know, but I think Sayid had the same uniform on.... so it could end up being him.

why was the 'roger workman' uniform in a house with a babys crib?

[The Jays]

Because it's really Roger's baby! Horace is going to be pissed!

[drusilla]

did you finally watch all the old episodes?

[IamFogHat]

Dave really has no room here, I bet Casey was thrilled the day he came home looking like Louis CK.

[ChrisTheCop]

Dave really has no room here, I bet Casey was thrilled the day he came home looking like Louis CK.

Stay on topic!!!

[TooLowBrow]

Remember when the hatch imploded, nobody who was caught in that explosion died. Not even Eko died and his character wanted to be off the show. Their must be something that is keeping those caught in massive explosions alive. Juliet, Sawyer, Jack, Kate, Jin, and Hurley are going to be transported back to their own time and when Richard sees them caught in the explosion he assumes their deaths.

[The Jays]

did you finally watch all the old episodes?

No, I still have the rest of season 1, and some episodes in between. I'm recording everything on SciFi and G4 on the bedroom DVR, and watching before I go to bed.

[Syd]

With the whole zombie Locke thing/guy taking on the form of Locke, if he's not Locke, how does he know to give Richard the compass and have him give it to John in the jungle?

The Smoke Monster, the guy who is Locke now is possibly Esau (Jacob's brother). Anyway whether that is true or not for convenience I'll call him Esau. Esau has an ability to judge people, know their memories to some extent similar to Miles.

Still no clue on what's in the guitar case.

Guitar case has some item of importance, my guess is that it contains a relic of some type.

Just wanna be sure on something, but Jacob's cabin isn't Rose and Benard's cabin?

It is hard to tell but if I had to take a stab at it I would. Locke had a vision of the cabin being built by Horace but we don't know whether that is true or not.

If that van that Sayid is in, wearing the Roger uniform, is the same van that Hurley found, then there would have to be beer in the back.

It's a leap of faith that it is that. Chances are it was Roger since he had become an alcoholic.

anyway this is my theory on the mythology, I wrote it last night and have been pasting it around spitballing it:

Jacob was shown, we're assuming other dude is Esau

Esau is obviously the smoke monster.

Locke has been Esau since after Ajira, arguably been indoctrinated by Esau since the smoke monster pulled Locke down the hole way back in S1 or whenever.

Jacob represents a nebulously "good" force on the island and parallels Desmond. That of free will/compatabilism.

Esau parallels Locke, that of fate, determinism.

The island represents their gameboard in which Jacob alters fate to allow/push people towards coming to the island. It's something to do with the ARG from S1, the Valenzetti equation that in a nutshell proves that humanity is set to extinct itself. I think Jacob solving the "game" and having the two forces on the island co-exist is his goal.

Esau simply chillaxes and watches what is happening. He might participate in the game by having his own people there, the natural inhabitants of the island.

That could be why women can no longer give birth on the island for some reason or another.

Anyway that's the mythology behind the show. It's pretty similar to Carnivale in a way except it's shades of grey, no good no evil just fate and free will.

and

The way to look at is everyone on the island are pawns of one guy or the other, Jacob brings them to the island to prove that humanity is ultimately good and the Valenzetti equation (or some other doomsday scenario) is wrong. Esau basically keeps being right which was the whole black background white lettering and that the Valenzetti equation is right (or some other doomsday scenario). Jacob changed the people, changed the rules or did some other changes and now people like Sawyer, Kate, Jack and whoever else are now essentially good people. Especially the former two, both stopped being in the game for themselves. Jack can now take things at face value instead of obsessing over them.

[instrument]

any chance that she isn't talking about jacob but christian having left the cabin?

What if jacob trapped christian in the cabin? thats why claire was there, and why christian would appear to still be on the island.

[Servo]

Finally seeing Nadia's death. Wow... and all because of Jacob. And speaking of Sayid - did he put on ROGER'S WORKMAN uniform when he tried to escape with Jack??!! Isn't that the same uniform found on the skeleton in the Dharma Van in the episode "Trisha Takanoma Is Dead"?? Could that not be Ben's Dad but actually Sayid?!


I thought he put on Horace's Mathematician jumpsuit.

[BeerBandit]

Stay on topic!!!
Stay on Topic!
http://www.acmewebworks.com/games/trench/Images/TrenchBlur_fast_lights.jpg

[Coach_Mac]

IAll through the episode, I couldn't remember where I'd seen the actor who plays Jacob before, but I knew I'd seen him play an abusive husband. Then I realized that he played Rita's junkie, criminal husband on Dexter.

He was also one of Jackie Treehorn's thugs.

I wish yall hadn't mentioned that because now I see him as a bad guy creep.

I thought he put on Horace's Mathematician jumpsuit.

I thought it was Horace's jumpsuit he put on as well.

[The Jays]

I wish yall hadn't mentioned that because now I see him as a bad guy creep.


If ya want to feel better, he's also Rip's kid brother in No Holds Barred.

[Coach_Mac]

Here is the story of Jacob and Esau. Some of it seems relevant and some of it doesn't but I especially like the part I highlighted. We see Jacob under the statue sewing and the smoke monster-Esau is always out in the woods killing.


"Jacob and Esau were the sons of Isaac and Rebekah and the first twins mentioned in the Bible. Even before they were born, they were struggling together in the womb of their mother. Their prenatal striving foreshadowed later conflict (Genesis 25:21-26).

The twins grew up very different. Jacob was “a quiet man, staying among the tents” and his mother’s favorite. Esau was “a skillful hunter, a man of the open country” and his father’s favorite. One day, Esau returned from hunting and desired some of the lentil stew that Jacob was cooking. Jacob offered to give his brother some stew in exchange for his birthright—the special honor that Esau possessed as the older son, which gave him the right to a double portion of his father’s inheritance. Esau put his temporary, physical needs over his God-given blessing and sold his birthright to Jacob (Genesis 25:27-34).

When the time came for Isaac to bestow his blessing on his sons, Jacob and his mother contrived to deceive Isaac into blessing Jacob in Esau’s place. When Esau found that his blessing had been given to Jacob, he threatened to kill his brother, and Jacob fled (Genesis 27:1 - 28:7). Years later, Jacob and Esau met and were reconciled (Genesis 33).

Both Jacob and Esau were fathers of nations. God changed Jacob’s name to Israel (Genesis 32:28), and he became the father of the 12 tribes of Israel. Esau’s descendants were the Edomites (Genesis 36). Edom was a nation that plagued Israel in later years and was finally judged by God (Obadiah 1:1-21).

In the New Testament, Esau’s choice to sell his birthright is used as an example of ungodliness—a “godless” person who will put physical desires over spiritual blessings (Hebrews 12:15-17). By his negative example, Esau teaches us to hold fast to what is truly important, even if it means denying the appetites of the flesh. Both Old and New Testaments use the story of Jacob and Esau to illustrate God’s calling and election. God chose the younger Jacob to carry on the Abrahamic Covenant, while Esau was providentially excluded from the Messianic line (Malachi 1:2-3; Romans 9:11-14)."

[Furtherman]

I thought he put on Horace's Mathematician jumpsuit.

OK, I could be wrong. It was a quick shot of the jumpsuit and I thought it might have been WORKMAN.

[HBox]

Looking at the last scene Esau has to be zombie Locke. However I'm not completely sure that Esau is the smoke monster. I think it's probable. Something possessed the other survivors of Rousseau's crew and we assume that is the smoke monster. The only thing that is stopping me from 100% believing that Esau is the smoke monster is the surprise zombie Locke displays when Ben tells him that his daughter showed up and told him to follow Locke. That was probably just Esau manipulating Locke but I'm not sure of that yet.

[HBox]

OK, I could be wrong. It was a quick shot of the jumpsuit and I thought it might have been WORKMAN.

I watched the episode again this afternoon and it was indeed Horace's jumpsuit.

[HBox]

Here is the story of Jacob and Esau. Some of it seems relevant and some of it doesn't but I especially like the part I highlighted. We see Jacob under the statue sewing and the smoke monster-Esau is always out in the woods killing.


"Jacob and Esau were the sons of Isaac and Rebekah and the first twins mentioned in the Bible. Even before they were born, they were struggling together in the womb of their mother. Their prenatal striving foreshadowed later conflict (Genesis 25:21-26).

The twins grew up very different. Jacob was “a quiet man, staying among the tents” and his mother’s favorite. Esau was “a skillful hunter, a man of the open country” and his father’s favorite. One day, Esau returned from hunting and desired some of the lentil stew that Jacob was cooking. Jacob offered to give his brother some stew in exchange for his birthright—the special honor that Esau possessed as the older son, which gave him the right to a double portion of his father’s inheritance. Esau put his temporary, physical needs over his God-given blessing and sold his birthright to Jacob (Genesis 25:27-34).

When the time came for Isaac to bestow his blessing on his sons, Jacob and his mother contrived to deceive Isaac into blessing Jacob in Esau’s place. When Esau found that his blessing had been given to Jacob, he threatened to kill his brother, and Jacob fled (Genesis 27:1 - 28:7). Years later, Jacob and Esau met and were reconciled (Genesis 33).

Both Jacob and Esau were fathers of nations. God changed Jacob’s name to Israel (Genesis 32:28), and he became the father of the 12 tribes of Israel. Esau’s descendants were the Edomites (Genesis 36). Edom was a nation that plagued Israel in later years and was finally judged by God (Obadiah 1:1-21).

In the New Testament, Esau’s choice to sell his birthright is used as an example of ungodliness—a “godless” person who will put physical desires over spiritual blessings (Hebrews 12:15-17). By his negative example, Esau teaches us to hold fast to what is truly important, even if it means denying the appetites of the flesh. Both Old and New Testaments use the story of Jacob and Esau to illustrate God’s calling and election. God chose the younger Jacob to carry on the Abrahamic Covenant, while Esau was providentially excluded from the Messianic line (Malachi 1:2-3; Romans 9:11-14)."

One relevant thing you are missing here is the name of Jacob's son: Ben.

[SP1!]

Looking at the last scene Esau has to be zombie Locke. However I'm not completely sure that Esau is the smoke monster. I think it's probable. Something possessed the other survivors of Rousseau's crew and we assume that is the smoke monster. The only thing that is stopping me from 100% believing that Esau is the smoke monster is the surprise zombie Locke displays when Ben tells him that his daughter showed up and told him to follow Locke. That was probably just Esau manipulating Locke but I'm not sure of that yet.

Yeah Im not sure hes the smoke monster either

I watched the episode again this afternoon and it was indeed Horace's jumpsuit.

Yeah, it did say mathematician and thats also bens house in the future which also explains how he now has tunnels to the temple in his home when he occupies the dharma camp.

[Dell]

I watched the finale with my wife last night, who had never seen a single episode. I did my best to explain everything that was going on, but at this point, it's pretty much impossible to do so without sounding like you're making it up as you go along. I was painting with pretty broad strokes too. For instance, when my wife asked how Sun knew her husband was in the past, I was able to explain without bringing Jack's dead father into the mix. It was tough because simple explanations lead to questions that had little to do with the finale ("if that little boy is Sawyer, why is he writing a letter to Sawyer?"). She also had lots of questions where my answer was "at this point, we don't know.". Ultimately, as it went along and she could focus on the big issues (plane crash - bomb - altering timeline, Ben and Locke going to kill Jacob) she was able to get into it and enjoy the show.
All through the episode, I couldn't remember where I'd seen the actor who plays Jacob before, but I knew I'd seen him play an abusive husband. Then I realized that he played Rita's junkie, criminal husband on Dexter.

that was driving me crazy last night and I forgot to google it today... thanks

[Dell]

Farraday's Mom.

I got the impression she was the mother to both when outside the hospital (after visiting Desmond's wife)

[Dell]

Here is the story of Jacob and Esau. Some of it seems relevant and some of it doesn't but I especially like the part I highlighted. We see Jacob under the statue sewing and the smoke monster-Esau is always out in the woods killing.


"Jacob and Esau were the sons of Isaac and Rebekah and the first twins mentioned in the Bible. Even before they were born, they were struggling together in the womb of their mother. Their prenatal striving foreshadowed later conflict (Genesis 25:21-26).

The twins grew up very different. Jacob was “a quiet man, staying among the tents” and his mother’s favorite. Esau was “a skillful hunter, a man of the open country” and his father’s favorite. One day, Esau returned from hunting and desired some of the lentil stew that Jacob was cooking. Jacob offered to give his brother some stew in exchange for his birthright—the special honor that Esau possessed as the older son, which gave him the right to a double portion of his father’s inheritance. Esau put his temporary, physical needs over his God-given blessing and sold his birthright to Jacob (Genesis 25:27-34).

When the time came for Isaac to bestow his blessing on his sons, Jacob and his mother contrived to deceive Isaac into blessing Jacob in Esau’s place. When Esau found that his blessing had been given to Jacob, he threatened to kill his brother, and Jacob fled (Genesis 27:1 - 28:7). Years later, Jacob and Esau met and were reconciled (Genesis 33).

Both Jacob and Esau were fathers of nations. God changed Jacob’s name to Israel (Genesis 32:28), and he became the father of the 12 tribes of Israel. Esau’s descendants were the Edomites (Genesis 36). Edom was a nation that plagued Israel in later years and was finally judged by God (Obadiah 1:1-21).

In the New Testament, Esau’s choice to sell his birthright is used as an example of ungodliness—a “godless” person who will put physical desires over spiritual blessings (Hebrews 12:15-17). By his negative example, Esau teaches us to hold fast to what is truly important, even if it means denying the appetites of the flesh. Both Old and New Testaments use the story of Jacob and Esau to illustrate God’s calling and election. God chose the younger Jacob to carry on the Abrahamic Covenant, while Esau was providentially excluded from the Messianic line (Malachi 1:2-3; Romans 9:11-14)."

so you're saying they plagiarized...

[K.C.]

After re-watching, I do believe Jacob is the ultimate goodness in this, and his goal is to prove to his companion that man is capable of choosing the Greater Good. It seems as if Jacob has been cultivating it for a long time (perhaps an explanation of The Others...the good guys vs. bad guys thing...the lists...choosing certain people to join).

I also still believe that the Jughead detonation produced a pure reboot of the everything. The difference this time is that Jacob will be gone. It will be the survivors, faced with the prospect of 'Esau' attempting to corrupt, seduce, and destroy them this time around ultimately having to choose the greater good, or to fall to ruin. (Which also may explain the whole Jacob touching people thing...he may be sealing parts of his goodness in them).

But I'll produce a nice book-sized dissertation on Jacob/Esau, the reboot, the ultimate significance of the real John Locke, the significance of Claire, and so forth when i finally hash everything out the way I want to say it.

[Stuft]

After re-watching, I do believe Jacob is the ultimate goodness in this, and his goal is to prove to his companion that man is capable of choosing the Greater Good. It seems as if Jacob has been cultivating it for a long time (perhaps an explanation of The Others...the good guys vs. bad guys thing...the lists...choosing certain people to join).

I also still believe that the Jughead detonation produced a pure reboot of the everything. The difference this time is that Jacob will be gone. It will be the survivors, faced with the prospect of 'Esau' attempting to corrupt, seduce, and destroy them this time around ultimately having to choose the greater good, or to fall to ruin. (Which also may explain the whole Jacob touching people thing...he may be sealing parts of his goodness in them).

But I'll produce a nice book-sized dissertation on Jacob/Esau, the reboot, the ultimate significance of the real John Locke, the significance of Claire, and so forth when i finally hash everything out the way I want to say it.

I can't wait to see your take on it...i find your posts about the show to be awesome! I'm not sure im still convinced Jacob is the *good*, altho i am leaning that way. Just alot to think through and analyze, especially if that IS his brother Esau (like i, and many others, assume it to be.) - Jacob wasn't all *good*, in that biblical reference.

[IamPixie]

I have questions:

How do we know dude in black is a: named Esau b: Jacob's Brother

And why can he not kill Jacob?

[TooLowBrow]

jacob wore white, esau/locke wore dark clothes

ben wore a black and white striped shirt

the losties were wearing light colored overalls

radzinski wore a dark colored overall


...just noticed...

[Stuft]

radzinski wore a dark colored overall


So has Christian.
Just sayin'.

[IamPixie]

anyone? anyone? bueller?

[HBox]

anyone? anyone? bueller?

Nobody knows what Jacob's enemy is called. People are calling him Esau because their relationship, or what we know of it thus far, parallels the biblical story of Jacob and Esau somewhat. And we also need something to call him. But it is not known if his name is really Esau or if he is really Jacob's brother or why he can't kill jacob.

[The Jays]

I don't think that Ben will do anything for good on the island... If the smoke monster is the other guy/evil, it seems that it is the only thing that Ben has been able to take order from. He visited it before and it took on the form of his dead daughter, and he listened to it tell him to listen to John Locke... the monster had taken on the form of dead John Locke, and told him to kill Jacob.


Only the true leader of the Others can talk to Jacob... Eloise was the leader at one time, she must have spoken to Jacob, and she wanted to get the Losties, as well as her own crew, the Ajira guys, onto the island, but they did not know of Ben, and Ben came on board, and fucked up the Losties going back... him being on board messed the plane up, which resulted in only some getting back to '77 and the others staying in the present.

[K.C.]

"Sobek's ambiguous nature led some Egyptians to believe that he was a repairer of evil that had been done, rather than a force for good in itself."

http://www.biasci.com/polyorg/Sobek_idol.jpg

We began the finale with Jacob slowly beginning the weaving a tapestry (metaphor alert), carefully seperating and caring for each individual string, slowly but surely constructing his objective over time.

He exits his home inside the giant statue of Sobek (metaphor alert #2), and watches the Black Rock roll up to the island. Out of the woods comes another man. They have the following exchange:

Jacob: I take it you're hear because of the ship.
Man: I am....how'd they find the island
Jacob: You'll have to ask when they get here.
Man: I don't have to ask; you brought them here...still trying to prove me wrong, aren't you?
Jacob: You are wrong.
Man: Am I?...They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt...it always ends the same.
Jacob: It only ends once...anything that happens before that...just progress
Man: Do you have any idea how badly I want to kill you.
Jacob: Yes
Man: One of these days, sooner or later, I'm going to find a loophole.
Jacob: And when you do, I'll be right here.

Now...there's two things here:

1) Jacob and this 'man' have been having an on-going, hands on discussion about the goodness of man.

2) I'm struck by how quickly and universally this man judges mankind. I'm also struck by the word 'progress.' And I'm even more interested in the need for a loophole.

We have already seen the judging entity on this island.

And this judging entity has the ability to scan the hearts of men, and take the form of their very thoughts. That would be our much beloved Smokey, and I believe this man we saw is a physical incarnation of it (perhaps the body of an old victim from shipwrecks past).

So why can't Smokey kill Jacob? Because Jacob is ultimately protected through his goodness, and as we've seen, the monster's purpose seems to be to judge the wicked and protect the island from their presence.

And so all these years, Jacob has been on the island, directing men to the island in an attempt to prove to Smokey that man is of good nature.

And Smokey has been judging, and killing these men (when the men haven't been killing each other), based on who they are, what they've done, or what they do once they get to the island (they come, the fight, they destroy, they corrupt).

And so this has played out for as long as we want to imagine. Jacob sees each instance of men coming as another chance to turn it all around. Smokey sees this as an unnecessary burden, and as becoming downright annoying to him.

Yet, Smokey can't kill Jacob, and Jacob apparently doesn't age or die, so the monster is subject to an endless parade of this. Finally, it decides enough is enough, and begins, on that very day, putting the wheels in motion for his 'loophole.'


But before I go further, I want to say two things about what I just said. First, the significance of Jacob living in Sopek. Jacob's actions, as we saw them in the flashbacks, can be viewed as ambiguous. He attempts to steer Kate, Jack, and Hurley in their flashbacks towards a sense of goodness, but puts Sayid and Sawyer on paths of horrible personal tragedy. He completely abuses and neglects Ben.

In Ancient Egyptian mythology, there are dueling beliefs about Sopek. Some see him as a God of fertility and goodness, and an entity responsible for creation. Others see him as destructive, primal, and fearsome. There is a duality similar to this in Jacob. What he does, doesn't always appear to be good. But the key is whether the end result of his actions achieve the greater good.


Onto the loophole...

Jacob takes the inhabitants of the Black Rock and creates his Others...a group dedicated to preserving the goodness of man on the island, as well as protecting Jacob ("we're the good guys..."). He makes it so he will only communicate with a chosen leader from the group, and retreats into isolation, only journeying from his home to make certain special trips (which will be touched on later).

It appears that they even imprison Smokey, or the physical manifestation of it, in the cabin for many years (a cabin that Rose and Bernard will find in 1974 and live in for at least three years). Whether it begins when the U.S. Military comes to the island in the 50s, or when DHARMA comes in the 70s, someone frees Smokey from its prison by breaking the containment ring around the cabin, and it begins its long trek to finally end Jacob.

It recruits Ben, posing as his mother in the jungle, luring him to Richard Alpert. Ben tells Richard what he saw, when he meets him in the jungle as a child, and Richard believes it to be a gift bestowed by Jacob, but isn't quite sure, so he tells Ben to wait and be patient.

Ben gets shot by Sayid in the 1970s (a design of Smokey...more on this later), and Kate takes him to Richard to save his life. Richard is forced to make a decision...accept Ben as one of them and one who was chosen by Jacob, or risk letting him die.

Richard brings Ben into the fold...in reality, Ben was never supposed to be part of The Others. He was never chosen by Jacob to be a leader.

So, introducing Ben into the equation changes certain things...it leads to the ousting of Widmore and Elie, and the rise of him as the leader. It also puts a person who has never been touched by Jacob in charge...a person who will be susceptable to ambiton, greed, and lust for power....all the things that Smokey points out as failings of man to Jacob.

815 comes to the island....I believe 815 coming to the island was the design of Jacob, but I'm going to explain why that is in another post. So just bear with me for the time being.

However, the survivors show the exact signs of what Smokey has always described mankind as...they fight, they destroy, they corrupt...Smokey could easily wipe them out like all the others, but for the first time, he sees his end game, and it's John Locke; a man that Jacob has healed twice (first saving his life from falling to death, and then healing his paralysis), who is now enthralled with his own destiny.

Locke is easily led astray, and easily duped, but for some reason Jacob has done more to protect and save Locke than anyone. Whatever Jacob's reason, Smokey doesn't care, and it's determined to exploit Locke's belief in destiny.

Smokey tricks Locke into thinking that it is Jacob, by taking the form of Christian. What's more, it tricks Ben into thinking that Jacob not only favors Locke, but has revealed himself to Locke. Ben, who had already had wavering faith from the cancer issue, is rocked by this revelation, and gradually implodes as leader of the Others, acting impulsively and showing poor judgment (i.e. Season 3 beach raid), driving Richard towards choosing Locke as the next leader based on the healing favors Jacob has bestowed on him as a sign it was meant to be.

Smokey is behind the detonation of the freighter ("You can go now, Michael"...ironically, Jin may have survived the freighter destruction because he was a 'good person' and isn't subject to being killed yet), and allows the Oceanic 6 to escape the island...for a purpose.

It calculates Ben's moves based on his lust for power and desire to remain relevant, and sends Locke on a mission he's destined to fail at, in order to make sure Locke ends up dead by killing himself, or by someone else killing him.

Ben kills Locke, and arranges the return of everyone to the island. Smokey immediately takes the form of Locke upon the body's arrival.

It now has its premise for Jacob's death...gain access to Jacob by posing as Locke, the leader of The Others, and force Ben, a man who has now been convinced that Jacob is the cause of all his misery, to kill him...the ultimate in delciious irony for Smokey, as Jacob will now die and all that Smokey has been saying about mankind will be proven correct at the same time.

As far as the O6 go, it was always the intention of this plan for the people who ended up in 1977 to end up there. Sayid, Kate, Sawyer, Juliet, and Jack are all instrumental in setting Ben on his path, and Ben is one of two key components in this Jacob hit.

Where I think the plan goes wrong, is that Smokey expects these people to die in the time after they set Ben on his path.

This is where Jacob's counterstrike comes in. Because rather than sit in the dark, Jacob makes a few very calculated moves of his own.

He visits each of the people who were at the Swan site in 1977 (except Miles and Juliet...more on that in a minute), and plants the seeds of choice in their head.

He tells Kate to be good. He gives Sawyer the pen to write his letter, a piviotal moment in Sawyer's life. His uncle tries to tell him not to write the letter afterwards because 'what's done is done.' Sawyer does it anyway, showing that he ultimately rejects that notion (despite trying to convince himself of its truth throughout this entire season).

He apparently saves Sayid's life, at the expense of Nadia's, offering him an opportunity to seek eventual redemption (which rebooting the timeline by destroying the Swan represents to him). He notes the 'little push' that Jack needs. He convinces Hurley that he's not cursed.

Just as important as all that...he physically touches everyone he meets...something that I think is very key in all this.

So the seeds that Jacob planted were a reminder of choice, something he reiterates to Ben before his death. Choose what exactly?

That's where Locke comes in.

the little and almost insensible impressions on our tender infancies have very important and lasting consequences.
- John Locke (philosopher)

Locke had many faults and shortcomings, but he introduced the idea of coming to the island being destiny to all these aforementioned people, and especially Jack. He gradually cultivated the seeds, still in their infancy, that Jacob planted, to get each of those people to the point where they were when they detonated the Swan...and that is believing that they can change things.

In the end Jacob's desire is that man understand that he can choose his own destiny, and with that choose goodness.

And what Smokey never calculated in his plan was that these people would choose, what ultimately appears to be an incredibly heroically selfless act, because Smokey believes man is inherently evil.

The most important line of the show is Jacob's last words:

"They're coming"

The look on Zombie Locke's face is priceless...it's a mix of complete terror, and absolute anger.

They, are the people from the Swan site in 1977, and they're coming back, in a rebooted timeline, to choose their own destiny...not fall prey to the destiny that Smokey has carved out for man...one of great evil.


Now as for why Jacob doesn't visit Miles or Juliet. Neither were brought to the island by Jacob. Juliet's coming was a product of Ben, and Miles' was a product of Widmore.

They were never suppose to be there (which is why Juliet's "maybe we were never suppose to be together" plea to Sawyer is so much more poignant).

In a rebooted timeline, they may ultimately never come to the island and in that sense, their part in this may be over.

[TooLowBrow]

Richard brings Ben into the fold...in reality, Ben was never supposed to be part of The Others. He was never chosen by Jacob to be a leader.
ben mightve been destined to lead the others
but sayid caused him to lose his trust when he was only a boy

maybe

because of that he never talked to jason, he got cancer, his daughter did, he lost his others, and now hes killed jacob

he has been sliding towards evil.
esaus puppet.
i hope he can find goodness again and reclaim his destiny

[MIKEYDAKEN]

i think next season will be a different timeline that only 1 person can remember the island. (hurley i think cause he is blessed) and he is trying to get things back to normal kinda like marvel's house of M

[K.C.]

ben mightve been destined to lead the others
but sayid caused him to lose his trust when he was only a boy

maybe

because of that he never talked to jason, he got cancer, his daughter did, he lost his others, and now hes killed jacob

he has been sliding towards evil.
esaus puppet.
i hope he can find goodness again and reclaim his destiny


I really think Ben's going to be the most tragic figure of the show.

For so long, everyone had him pegged as the puppetmaster...the guy who knew all the secrets and the irony of the whole thing would be that Ben was never even suppose to be involved.

His life was ruined by being made a pawn in this game to kill Jacob. He was built up to believe he was special and a leader when he was never suppose to be. He lost everything in his fall from grace, and now, he's married himself to what may be evil incarnate.

And if you listen to his explanation, from his perspective, his resentment towards Jacob is completely justified. He's only reacting how anyone would react to what he's been through, based on what he knows (which isn't enough yet)

It's going to be interesting whether he ultimately learns his original purpose.

And if that purpose was to never be involved...if it was always to just be Ben - Workman, will he accept that and renounce everything he's become (and likely be killed for doing so...Smokey said it'd destroy him), with the knowledge now of not just all the suffering he'll have been through personally, but all the suffering he's caused over the years.

Could be a very, very interesting storyline.

[IamPixie]

K.C. you have interesting theories but if Miles was never supposed to be there don't you think that it's a pretty big coincidence that he ends up on the same island in the same time with his long lost father?

[HBox]

They are going to have a very difficult time advertising the new season in the fall without giving away what happened at the end.

[hammersavage]

They are going to have a very difficult time advertising the new season in the fall without giving away what happened at the end.

Just get signs that say 'LOST: You've come this far'

[The Jays]

LOST: The only redeeming show broadcast on this network.





Seriously, they show promos for Grey's Anatomy, Ugly Betty, Desperate Housewives, fucking Wipeout?? They all look so fucking lame, ABC has only had two good shows ever in it history; Lost, and Family Matters.

[HBox]

One thing I just noticed: The last stop the others made before arriving at the statue was the original camp of 815. Locke said they'd make it to the statue from there by nightfall but they actually arrived while the sun was still up. No way the statue was that close to the camp. Wasn't it on the other side of the island from the camp when they first saw it?

[PhishHead]

I don't know if this matters, but the ABC recap of the episode is saying it is Taweret not Sobek

http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/index?pn=recap#t=162212&d=201648

[K.C.]

One thing I just noticed: The last stop the others made before arriving at the statue was the original camp of 815. Locke said they'd make it to the statue from there by nightfall but they actually arrived while the sun was still up. No way the statue was that close to the camp. Wasn't it on the other side of the island from the camp when they first saw it?



They took the shoreline...if I remember correctly, the Tailies camp was close to the Ferry Dock from Season 2 and the statue was about halfway between the Tailies camp and the Fuselage camp.

The reason it took the Tailies so long in Season 2 was because they cut through the jungle to save Sawyer. They still made it in a day or so, though.

[K.C.]

I don't know if this matters, but the ABC recap of the episode is saying it is Taweret not Sobek

http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/index?pn=recap#t=162212&d=201648



That seems very odd...I would swear that it was a crocodile head on the statue.

[PhishHead]

That seems very odd...I would swear that it was a crocodile head on the statue.

this looks similar to it as well though

http://www.blog.hippomojo.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/370px-taweretsvg.png

[Servo]

That seems very odd...I would swear that it was a crocodile head on the statue.

Not only that, but the statue is holding an ankh at its side like Sobek.

[PhishHead]

Not only that, but the statue is holding an ankh at its side like Sobek.

I think every Egyptian statue is holding the ankh at the side.

[K.C.]

K.C. you have interesting theories but if Miles was never supposed to be there don't you think that it's a pretty big coincidence that he ends up on the same island in the same time with his long lost father?

Miles IS tied in heavily to the island for a purpose, but I don't think he was suppose to be where he was.

Bram and the guys from Ilana's group tried to recruit him when he went to the island on Widmore's freighter...we learned that Ilana was recruited by Jacob to help him in the war against this dark entity.

So it would seem from that, that Jacob had plans for Miles in the future, perhaps as being part of that shadow of the statue group.

But Miles chose to take the money Widmore offered and ended up on the island three years before he should have gone back, and as a result, ended up as a part of events he wasn't originally intended to be involved in.

He may have his own destiny intertwined with the island, but it's not intertwined with the 815ers.

Ultimately, I think Miles will play a big role in fighting Smokey. He has the ability to read the thoughts of the dead, so it he may be important in determining whether who they actually encounter is the actual person, or an incarnation of the monster.

For instance, Miles may have detected dead Locke's thoughts if he came close enough in proximity to the body, thus being able to warn everyone sooner that Zombie Locke was not who he said he was.

[PhishHead]

Miles IS tied in heavily to the island for a purpose, but I don't think he was suppose to be where he was.

Bram and the guys from Ilana's group tried to recruit him when he went to the island on Widmore's freighter...we learned that Ilana was recruited by Jacob to help him in the war against this dark entity.

So it would seem from that, that Jacob had plans for Miles in the future, perhaps as being part of that shadow of the statue group.

But Miles chose to take the money Widmore offered and ended up on the island three years before he should have gone back, and as a result, ended up as a part of events he wasn't originally intended to be involved in.

He may have his own destiny intertwined with the island, but it's not intertwined with the 815ers.

Ultimately, I think Miles will play a big role in fighting Smokey. He has the ability to read the thoughts of the dead, so it he may be important in determining whether who they actually encounter is the actual person, or an incarnation of the monster.

For instance, Miles may have detected dead Locke's thoughts if he came close enough in proximity to the body, thus being able to warn everyone sooner that Zombie Locke was not who he said he was.

I like that theory

[K.C.]

By the way, the statue must be Taweret.

All the statues of Sobek I've seen have five toes.

A few comments on this:

Her name means (one) who is great. When paired with another deity, she became the demon-wife of Apep, the original god of evil. Since Apep was viewed as residing below the horizon, and only present at night, evil during the day then was envisaged as being a result of Taweret's maleficence.

In their art, Taweret was depicted as a composite of all the things the Egyptians feared, the major part of her being hippopotamus, since this is what the constellation most resembled, with the arms and legs of a lioness, and with the back of a crocodile. On occasion, later, rather than having a crocodile back, she was seen as having a separate, small crocodile resting on her back, which was thus interpreted as Sobek, the crocodile-god, and said to be her consort.


Sobek and Taweret have very similarly ambiguous identities straddling the line between good and evil depending on perspective.

It's interesting to note that Apep is the original god of evil, and the husband of Taweret.

It would imply that Jacob is paired to this other man, and that much of what this other man has down, Jacob has been taking blame for in the eyes of some, similar to how Egyptians blamed Taweret for certain evils during the day because Apep was only visible at night.

That would seem to fall in line with the idea of the nameless man doing things in the name of Jacob to lure Ben and Locke to where they needed to be.