DC's Final Crisis

[EliSnow]

Technically, Final Crisis doesn't start this week, but with sale of DC Universe #0, for all practical purposes it does.

So, we can have discussion about it, and Final Crisis here. The mini will be written by Grant Morrison and Geoff Johns, whose books are doing really well right now.

I'm not as pumped for this series as I am Marvel's Secret Invasion, in all likelihood because the lead up to Final Crisis (Countdown) wasn't very good as opposed to the lead-up for Secret Invasion.

Now as for DC Universe #0, I haven't read it yet, but I heard a major spoiler. NOTE: This spoiler is probably the biggest spoiler to come out for DC in years, so if you're reading the issue today, or in the next few days, I really suggest you don't read.

Apparently, Barry Allen returns from the dead at the end of the book.

[MadMatt]

Apparently, Barry Allen returns from the dead at the end of the book.




Whaaaaaaaat?

Did DC just become Marvel? Why the hell would they do that?

[weekapaugjz]

i just picked up universe #0 at the comic book store today and going to read it at some point this afternoon. im just really getting into DC books now, but have read a bunch of batman. any suggestions for DC to get more out of final crisis when it starts?

[EliSnow]

Whaaaaaaaat?

Did DC just become Marvel? Why the hell would they do that?

They've been thinking about doing this for years. In fact, word is that the writer of Crisis On Infinite Earths created a loophole in that story for this very thing to happen.

Considering what DC has done over the last 10 years bringing back Oliver Queen, Hal Jordan and Jason Todd from the dead, they've been as guilty as Marvel.

[EliSnow]

i just picked up universe #0 at the comic book store today and going to read it at some point this afternoon. im just really getting into DC books now, but have read a bunch of batman. any suggestions for DC to get more out of final crisis when it starts?

I would read Crisis on Multiple Earths, Identity Crisis, and Infinite Crisis to get as most of this as you can.

[MadMatt]

Considering what DC has done over the last 10 years bringing back Oliver Queen, Hal Jordan and Jason Todd from the dead, they've been as guilty as Marvel.

Very good point - I had forgotten about those instances (well, 2 of them anyway). I have been out of comics for years and just started getting back into them recently. Those are 3 major events that prove DC is just about as bad. :down:

However, with Hal Jordan at least they kept the character "alive" by making him the Specter. The transition to being "fully alive" wasn't as harsh.

[EliSnow]

However, with Hal Jordan at least they kept the character "alive" by making him the Specter. The transition to being "fully alive" wasn't as harsh.

Not right away.

Hal died in Final Night #4 which came out in November 1996.

He didn't become Spectre until three years later in November 1999.

[MadMatt]

Not right away.

Hal died in Final Night #4 which came out in November 1996.

He didn't become Spectre until three years later in November 1999.


Yeah, but that isn't nearly as bad as bringing Barry Allen back NOW. It has been nearly 25 years since he "died." What was it, the mid-1980's (1985 I think)?

I guess with the Speed Force almost anything is possible, including a "time jump" or re materializing. Plus I guess the amount of time that has passed in the DCU isn't equal to time IRL.

[EliSnow]

Yeah, but that isn't nearly as bad as bringing Barry Allen back NOW. It has been nearly 25 years since he "died." What was it, the mid-1980's (1985 I think)?

I guess with the Speed Force almost anything is possible, including a "time jump" or re materializing. Plus I guess the amount of time that has passed in the DCU isn't equal to time IRL.

I agree, although the last example I mentioned, JT was almost as long ago, and almost has big of news.

I was just saying that DC's as bad as Marvel on this. Although Marvel's most recent example of this may be the best done example of this ever, in terms of quality. Bucky/Winter Soldier

[Knowledged_one]

I really dont have anything to add here but i think its cool to write in spoiler text and know that someone will read it and think im an ass for doing this but ah well what can you do its only one post out of almost 4600 know what i mean. I think Granny Goodness may actually be the key in this whole thing

[MagillaGorillaz]

Marv Wolfman once said in an interveiw that there was an out for the Barry Allen Flash to come back. He said he wrote it in Crisis but I could never figure out if he was talking about the speed force or not. Man Amazons how cool is that! And not in a gay way.

[JustJon]

I heard 2 spoilers for DUC #0. Neither of which I like...

the return of Barry Allen, as stated above at the end of the book... and the death of J'onn J'ones at the beginning of the book.

[EliSnow]

I heard 2 spoilers for DUC #0. Neither of which I like...

the return of Barry Allen, as stated above at the end of the book... and the death of J'onn J'ones at the beginning of the book.

I hadn't heard the second rumor, and since I've read reviews of the book, and they don't mention the second, I don't think it happens in that book.

Maybe in Final Crisis itself.

[Tall_James]

Marv Wolfman once said in an interveiw that there was an out for the Barry Allen Flash to come back. He said he wrote it in Crisis but I could never figure out if he was talking about the speed force or not. Man Amazons how cool is that! And not in a gay way.

I've been trying to figure what the convention Wolfman used in order to be able to bring Flash back for years now. It'll be nice to finally have it answered.

[EliSnow]

I've been trying to figure what the convention Wolfman used in order to be able to bring Flash back for years now. It'll be nice to finally have it answered.

The Marv Wolfman thing was what I was hinting at before. What I've heard is that because in COIE, Barry came from the future (where he was spending time), essentially he's still alive in the future until he travels back to fight in the Crisis. So if a time traveler were to get him before he came back to COIE, he could come back again.

The problem is that in order to not destroy the outcome of COIE, Barry would have to be able to travel back to the future so that at some point, he could go back to COIE and destroy the Anti-Monitor's machine.

[Tall_James]

The Marv Wolfman thing was what I was hinting at before. What I've heard is that because in COIE, Barry came from the future (where he was spending time), essentially he's still alive in the future until he travels back to fight in the Crisis. So if a time traveler were to get him before he came back to COIE, he could come back again.

The problem is that in order to not destroy the outcome of COIE, Barry would have to be able to travel back to the future so that at some point, he could go back to COIE and destroy the Anti-Monitor's machine.

I just know that Bart Allen has to figure into this somehow in a major capacity.

[MadMatt]

The Marv Wolfman thing was what I was hinting at before. What I've heard is that because in COIE, Barry came from the future (where he was spending time), essentially he's still alive in the future until he travels back to fight in the Crisis. So if a time traveler were to get him before he came back to COIE, he could come back again.

The problem is that in order to not destroy the outcome of COIE, Barry would have to be able to travel back to the future so that at some point, he could go back to COIE and destroy the Anti-Monitor's machine.


http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/340/argexplodingheadguylgbour9.gif


:laugh:

[JustJon]

I just know that Bart Allen has to figure into this somehow in a major capacity.

From beyond the grave? They killed him in the 13 issue Flash series that was after Wally as the Flash (before his return)

[Northside Dan]

i am looking foward to it but the blackest night is the reason for rejoicing as that is the best written books right now on both sides and i cant wait to see if they top the sinestro war

[Tall_James]

From beyond the grave? They killed him in the 13 issue Flash series that was after Wally as the Flash (before his return)

Yes, from beyond the grave. Haven't you been paying attention to all of these dead heroes popping up over the past 5 years? He'll be plucked from the past, seconds before the Rogues actually killed him, transported further into the past (by his own noble decision) to wear Barry Allen's costume to destroy the Monitor's device and maintaining the timeline set by COIE.

Hey, its no crazier than some of the theories out there. Heroes don't stay dead in the comics world. The Bucky/Jason Todd rule just does not apply anymore.

Plus, Bart Allen's death never sat right with me. That's why he figgers into my theory.

[EliSnow]

Okay, I just read an interview on Newsarama with Dan Didio about DC Universe #0. He said something that reminded me of a previous plot point.

"But I will say that, in his storytelling, Geoff has alluded to the fact that Barry will return three times in Wally’s life when things are most dire. You know what? Things aren’t going to get that much more dire than we see then in Final Crisis."

This is true, and I forgot. Back when Geoff wrote The Flash, Barry did return (from the future but prior to COIE in his life) to provide help to Wally. I think this event occurred when Wally's kids were killed by Zoom. So if Barry's return in DC Universe #0 is similar, this is one of those three times, and it means that Barry is not back for good.

Guess you can't do a quote box in the spoiler box.

EDIT: The rest of the article (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=155596) seems to contradict my above thought.

[Sheeplovr]

im not that excited

but

interested to see what will happen


they have to do alot ot make up for coutndown blowing so hard

Batman RIP im so excited for maybe cause im a giant batman dork

i need to read senstro corp war
all the color rings i like that idea

just i have too much crisis fatige already too much to fallow

[EliSnow]

Entertainment Weekly's website is running a five page preview of Final Crisis. Click here (http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20198161,00.html) to take a look.


They also have some a page of sketches of Darkseid's new look (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=156159).

[Aqualad]

DC Universe #0 was pretty bad. If I'd paid more than 50 cents for it I'd be annoyed.

Still looking forward to Final Crisis though. Grant Morrison is gold when he's on the big mainstream superheroes. His JLA and X-Men are in my top ten favorite runs.

[EliSnow]

Grant Morrison is gold when he's on the big mainstream superheroes. His JLA and X-Men are in my top ten favorite runs.

I wouldn't say he's complete gold. While there were some incredibly great stories in both runs, there were some stories that weren't good and were a mess.

The thing about Morrison is that he's willing to try a bunch of new and crazy ideas and doesn't play it safe. When you do that, you're going to hit some huge homers, and you're going to strike out badly at times.

[Aqualad]

I wouldn't say he's complete gold. While there were some incredibly great stories in both runs, there were some stories that weren't good and were a mess.

The thing about Morrison is that he's willing to try a bunch of new and crazy ideas and doesn't play it safe. When you do that, you're going to hit some huge homers, and you're going to strike out badly at times.

That's true. There were times during JLA (the Crisis Times Five arc comes to mind) where I just threw up my hands and said Fuck it. But he's still probably my favorite writer in comics today. Every issue of All-Star Superman has been phenomenal, and I dig his Batman run more than most.

[Sheeplovr]

That's true. There were times during JLA (the Crisis Times Five arc comes to mind) where I just threw up my hands and said Fuck it. But he's still probably my favorite writer in comics today. Every issue of All-Star Superman has been phenomenal, and I dig his Batman run more than most.

i love Grant Morrison's Seven soilders of victory i had so much fun with that

[Aqualad]

i love Grant Morrison's Seven soilders of victory i had so much fun with that

SSOV was the shit. I demand a Frankenstein ongoing!

[Sheeplovr]

SSOV was the shit. I demand a Frankenstein ongoing!

the seven soilders randomly showed up in battles during the crisis but it didnt make any sense to me

[EliSnow]

i love Grant Morrison's Seven soilders of victory i had so much fun with that

I thought it was great until the end. That last issue really didn't do it for me.

That happens with Morrison sometimes.

BTW, I think I would have liked his X-Men run, if there had been some level of consistency on the art for that run.

And All-Star Superman is the shit. It may be his best work ever, with Animal Man running second.

[Sheeplovr]

yeah at the end i thought it wasnt really the end so i've been waiting for something else to come out
cause it didnt feel over

[JustJon]

I still need to get the SSOV trades...

[Aqualad]

I still need to get the SSOV trades...

Zatanna and Frankenstein were the best, IMO, and Bulleteer was pretty good too. Didn't care much for Mr. Miracle or Shining Knight, but all of the minis had terrific art.

[EliSnow]

So, Final Crisis #1 came out last week. I'm getting my issue tonight. I've heard a major Silver Age hero gets killed.

[booster11373]

So, Final Crisis #1 came out last week. I'm getting my issue tonight. I've heard a major Silver Age hero gets killed.

yep

[weekapaugjz]

So, Final Crisis #1 came out last week. I'm getting my issue tonight. I've heard a major Silver Age hero gets killed.

its true. ive only gotten into DC comics within the last few months and from what i have read so far, he was quickly becoming my favorite character besides batman. i was hoping he was going to have a big role in final crisis, but those hopes were shattered.

overall, i liked the first issue, definitely has me excited for the rest of the series. make sure to post your thoughts after you read it tonight.

[Sinestro]

Can we get a spoiler in black?

Who dies?

[weekapaugjz]

Can we get a spoiler in black?

Who dies?

martian manhunter

[MadMatt]

martian manhunter

But it also looks like Orion died too.

[EliSnow]

its true. ive only gotten into DC comics within the last few months and from what i have read so far, he was quickly becoming my favorite character besides batman. i was hoping he was going to have a big role in final crisis, but those hopes were shattered.

overall, i liked the first issue, definitely has me excited for the rest of the series. make sure to post your thoughts after you read it tonight.

I realized after I got home, that due to the memorial day holiday, I won't receive last week' comics until tomorrow.

[Gritty]

its true. ive only gotten into DC comics within the last few months and from what i have read so far, he was quickly becoming my favorite character besides batman. i was hoping he was going to have a big role in final crisis, but those hopes were shattered.

overall, i liked the first issue, definitely has me excited for the rest of the series. make sure to post your thoughts after you read it tonight.

Same here. I thought it was a good start and I'm looking forward to more. Over on Newsarama.com some reviewers commented on the lack of captions, saying a number of scenes needed more explanation and characters should have been introduced using them. I didn't think that was the case. If you know your DC history, you won't need the captions. If you don't know DC history, I think you can still follow what's happening even if you may have to wait an issue or two for more details. That's part of the fun, IMO.



I also thought the death scene(s) were well done. No full page spreads or multi-panel build ups, just --WHAM! -- there it is, over and done! What did you think about the new 'cop lingo" the GL's were using? I thought it was appropriate even if it was a little too Terran specific.

[EliSnow]

Guys, the book's been out for almost a week. I don't think you need to use the spoiler boxes.

[MadMatt]

Guys, the book's been out for almost a week. I don't think you need to use the spoiler boxes.

Well, you said you hadn't read it yet, so I guess we were all being polite.

[weekapaugjz]

Guys, the book's been out for almost a week. I don't think you need to use the spoiler boxes.

well, i knew you hadn't read it yet, so i didn't want to spoil anything. wanted to make sure it was a surprise for you when you read it.

[Tall_James]

I was underwhelmed by the way they handled the murder of the Martian Manhunter. The shock aspect wasn't there for me, it was rather unimaginative.

[booster11373]

I was underwhelmed by the way they handled the murder of the Martian Manhunter. The shock aspect wasn't there for me, it was rather unimaginative.

Completly agree with you on that, He was a founding memeber of the Justice League and goes out like a 3 tier......

Plus the retconning of the New Gods contact/history with the DCU is weirdly....irritating. Orion was a memeber of the JLA for a time yet John Stewart is only "sort" of aware of him and the New Gods. John Stewert has been to New Genesis he knows they exist!


Thats my nerd quota for today

[Aqualad]

Because it's Morrison I'm willing to stick with this mini and give it the benefit of the doubt. But what an incomprehensible waste of a first issue that was...:thumbdown:

[EliSnow]

Well, you said you hadn't read it yet, so I guess we were all being polite.

well, i knew you hadn't read it yet, so i didn't want to spoil anything. wanted to make sure it was a surprise for you when you read it.

Thanks to all for being polite, but it would be my own fault for reading a thread about a book that I haven't read yet.

Just got it last night. Like many others, I too was underwhelmed by it.

And since I wasn't a fan of the Mr. Miracle portion of the Seven Solider of Victory mini, the portion on what the New Gods have become (which is the same as portrayed in Mr. Miracle) left a bad taste in my mouth.

And I agree that the way J'onn went out was completely underwhelming. And who was the guy at end?

[TheMojoPin]

I thought it was great until the end. That last issue really didn't do it for me.

That happens with Morrison sometimes.

BTW, I think I would have liked his X-Men run, if there had been some level of consistency on the art for that run.

I was really iffy about his X-run when I first read it, thinking it started out strong and then sort of fell apart, but when I went back and finally re-read it in the last year, everything clicked and I loved it, including that last arc, which seemed nonsenical and terrible the first time I read it. I think his run makes Whedon's look incredibly safe and boring. Morrison is really the only person to touch on the idea that a world with mutans is going to have a ton of hideous/useless mutations to go along with the "sexy" ones. Plus I thought the idea of the "X-Corporation" was brilliant, seems to have been pretty much forgotten except when convenient and, of course, FANTOMEX.

[TheMojoPin]

I know Rucka is supposedly one of the main plotters/writers for all the big DC stuff these days, but some of these developments seem targeted to fuck over the titles he actually writes. Gotham Central was amazing because it was seperate from all the big epic cosmic shit, but two of the detectives from it end up being the Question and the mothewrfucking Spectre? I'm not saying those storylines haven't been handled well, but Holy Antithesis to the Tone of the Series, Batman! And now they kill off MM after the kickass reveal that he's been sometimes impersonating one of the Kings of Checkmate? Weak sauce.

And yeah, I know GC was ending ayway because he and Brubaker worked together on it and Brubaker signed his exclusive deal with Marvel...it just seems lame to end such a well-crafted, smallscale series that way.

[ruggedo]

There has been nothing but bad word of mouth about this book at the store. I think the majority opinion has been to just get passed this and get to where DC can start telling stories that will again build the DC Universe again. Most of the readers are just tired of constant crisis.
I'm a DC fan and I pretty much feel that way myself.

[EliSnow]

Final Crisis #3 came out yesterday, and all I have to say is that Grant Morrison is certainly letting his freak flag fly.

It is impressive that DC decided to go with this ambitious, freaky story as their big event of this year (and as the supposed last Crisis). I don't know if it will end up succeeding or not, but it's pretty daring and interesting.

[Knowledged_one]

Final Crisis #3 came out yesterday, and all I have to say is that Grant Morrison is certainly letting his freak flag fly.

It is impressive that DC decided to go with this ambitious, freaky story as their big event of this year (and as the supposed last Crisis). I don't know if it will end up succeeding or not, but it's pretty daring and interesting.

I think the flash aspect has definetly been interesting thats for sure, didnt Morrison say before that he left open a way to bring back the original flash that would be plausible and believable

[EliSnow]

I think the flash aspect has definetly been interesting thats for sure, didnt Morrison say before that he left open a way to bring back the original flash that would be plausible and believable

Morrison really couldn't "leave open" a way to bring back Barry, since he wasn't the one who wrote Barry's demise.

Marv Wolfman who wrote the initial Crisis said that he left a way open, but I believe his way was that, right before COIE, Barry was living in the future. Given the time travel aspect, they always could have shown a pre-COIE Barry, but from the future coming back.

But they made it clear in this issue that Barry was dead and was brought back.

[Knowledged_one]

Also i still despise Granny Goodness and Sonny Sumo has got to be the worst name ever

[Tall_James]

Sonny Sumo has got to be the worst name ever

Oh yeah? Try this one....

Tawny Tiger.

[Knowledged_one]

Morrison really couldn't "leave open" a way to bring back Barry, since he wasn't the one who wrote Barry's demise.

Marv Wolfman who wrote the initial Crisis said that he left a way open, but I believe his way was that, right before COIE, Barry was living in the future. Given the time travel aspect, they always could have shown a pre-COIE Barry, but from the future coming back.

But they made it clear in this issue that Barry was dead and was brought back.

Thanks for clearing that up for me Eli you are a good egg. I knew that i read somewhere where they said there was a loophole to bring him back

Do you like how they have Barry back right now or how they have done it so far

[EliSnow]

Thanks for clearing that up for me Eli you are a good egg. I knew that i read somewhere where they said there was a loophole to bring him back

Do you like how they have Barry back right now or how they have done it so far

It's still too early to say. So far, we've had what, three or four pages featuring Barry, and maybe 10 words from him?

And they haven't explained how he's back yet. So right now, my verdict is out.

[EliSnow]

Also i still despise Granny Goodness and Sonny Sumo has got to be the worst name ever

Oh yeah? Try this one....

Tawny Tiger.

Paste Pot Pete.

[booster11373]

I haven't read iss 3 yet...

But I always felt Jack Kirby's fourth world characters were kind of shoe-horned in to the main DCU

Darkseid is cool as a top-tier villain and High Father but the rest are kind of silly once you get pasted them

[EliSnow]

Final Crisis came out last week, and I have to say that I'm enjoying it more as it starts to make more sense to me about what the fuck is going on. However, I'm still not really, really psyched about it.

And less psyched when I realize that the best parts of "Final Crisis" are those side storys/arc that have "Final Crisis" in the title that really are only marginally related to Final Crisis or not at all. The three best? Legion of Three Worlds, Rogues Revenge and Rage of the Red Lanterns.

And that is even more proof that Geoff Johns has to be the best comic book writer in the business right now. Brubaker is doing some great stuff at Marvel, but it doesn't match Johns' quality output.

[booster11373]

Final Crisis came out last week, and I have to say that I'm enjoying it more as it starts to make more sense to me about what the fuck is going on. However, I'm still not really, really psyched about it.

And less psyched when I realize that the best parts of "Final Crisis" are those side storys/arc that have "Final Crisis" in the title that really are only marginally related to Final Crisis or not at all. The three best? Legion of Three Worlds, Rogues Revenge and Rage of the Red Lanterns.

And that is even more proof that Geoff Johns has to be the best comic book writer in the business right now. Brubaker is doing some great stuff at Marvel, but it doesn't match Johns' quality output.

I wont say I hate it but I don't like it intensely, there is no connection to the DCU, every issue makes me feel like I missed the first 10 minutes of the movie

[The Ogre]

I'm burned out on all the death worship comics that have been DC's staple since Identity Crisis. Seems like every goddamn issue they release now, especially the Final Crisis related ones, has an exploding head, evisceration, limbs ripped or cut off, etc. I know most of the readers are in their 30's now and kiddie stories are passe, but I'm almost embarassed that DC thinks this is what I want as a fan.

[EliSnow]

Final Crisis #5 comes out tomorrow. Looks like we'll be seeing some Green Lantern interaction. Hopefully, the series keeps improving.

[weekapaugjz]

i really liked #5. i only wish the fight between black adam and mary marvel would have been a little bigger. the last few pages with darkseid and all his minions was a kind of haunting. really looking forward to the last two issues of this series.

[EliSnow]

I think I figured out what one of the main problems I have with Final Crisis. I think it's the way the art is (or is not) telling the story or the disconnect between the dialogue and the art.

Morrison clearly uses some freaky (for lack of a better term) ideas for things and how things are interacting, but as with any comic book, he doesn't have captions that would explain what's happening in the scene. Instead, it has to be apparent from the art what it going on. In many cases, I have no idea what's happening because it's not apparent from the dialogue or the art. For instance, the start of the issue shows Oa and there's a fight, and you see something green hitting the main Power Battery. I can't tell if it's a skeleton or a green lantern power construct.

Similarly, part of the issue takes place inside the Bludhaven bunker where certain prisoners are being kept, and they talk about the magic minimum number of moves needed to solve a rubik's cube. There's one character who becomes something at the end, but I have no idea who is talking to him about the magic Rubik's number nor what the first character becomes at the end.

Another part shows Supergirl in the air commenting that she forgets that not everyone has superhearing. The next shot shows observers on the grounds seeing something from the air striking the ground. The next shot shows Mary Marvel fighting with Supergirl, so I guess Mary had flew into Supergirl tackling her in the air and bringing her to the ground. But it's not clear that's what's happening.

So ultimately, I have trouble keeping up with what's going on in the issue and I think Morrison's story relies upon the art showing a number of what happens. But the art hasn't been doing that. Maybe Morrison packs too much stuff for the art to do that in one issue, or maybe the artist stinks. Either way, I read the issue and feel lost, when I want to understand and enjoy the story.

[psycho]

Final Crisis is way too hardcore for me, I don't understand anything that's going on XD.

[Aqualad]

I think I figured out what one of the main problems I have with Final Crisis. I think it's the way the art is (or is not) telling the story or the disconnect between the dialogue and the art.

Morrison clearly uses some freaky (for lack of a better term) ideas for things and how things are interacting, but as with any comic book, he doesn't have captions that would explain what's happening in the scene. Instead, it has to be apparent from the art what it going on. In many cases, I have no idea what's happening because it's not apparent from the dialogue or the art. For instance, the start of the issue shows Oa and there's a fight, and you see something green hitting the main Power Battery. I can't tell if it's a skeleton or a green lantern power construct.

Similarly, part of the issue takes place inside the Bludhaven bunker where certain prisoners are being kept, and they talk about the magic minimum number of moves needed to solve a rubik's cube. There's one character who becomes something at the end, but I have no idea who is talking to him about the magic Rubik's number nor what the first character becomes at the end.

Another part shows Supergirl in the air commenting that she forgets that not everyone has superhearing. The next shot shows observers on the grounds seeing something from the air striking the ground. The next shot shows Mary Marvel fighting with Supergirl, so I guess Mary had flew into Supergirl tackling her in the air and bringing her to the ground. But it's not clear that's what's happening.

So ultimately, I have trouble keeping up with what's going on in the issue and I think Morrison's story relies upon the art showing a number of what happens. But the art hasn't been doing that. Maybe Morrison packs too much stuff for the art to do that in one issue, or maybe the artist stinks. Either way, I read the issue and feel lost, when I want to understand and enjoy the story.

This is true. The lack of establishing captions ("Metropolis", etc) means that you have to remember from issue to issue which characters are doing what, and where. It might read OK in a trade, but in a not-quite-monthly comic it throws the pacing off when you have to stop and re-read to try and remember what happened last issue.

[MisterSmith]

Very good call RE: Final Crisis, Eli. I thought maybe it was an intentional attempt to be chaotic and confusing, but why would they do that in a major event like this?

I know I am missing some key story points. Time to find a synopsis I guess.

[psycho]

This is true. The lack of establishing captions ("Metropolis", etc) means that you have to remember from issue to issue which characters are doing what, and where. It might read OK in a trade, but in a not-quite-monthly comic it throws the pacing off when you have to stop and re-read to try and remember what happened last issue.

I think I'll do that as well, too confusing as it is, let alone waiting every "month" for the story. I feel the same way about Batman R.I.P.

[TheMojoPin]

This sounds amazing.

Can't wait to read the trades.

[MisterSmith]

For all of us who may be a little confused or are missing parts of the story, I found a great site. The Annotated Final Crisis (http://theannotatedfinalcrisis.googlepages.com/) runs through each issue page by page, as well as all of the tie-ins. Very cool site. :thumbup:

[MisterSmith]

I think I'll do that as well, too confusing as it is, let alone waiting every "month" for the story. I feel the same way about Batman R.I.P.

The last couple issues of RIP were tremendously confusing, although they were meant to be since you are seeing inside Batman's mind as they are f-ing with it. It was tough to keep things straight though.

[psycho]

The last couple issues of RIP were tremendously confusing, although they were meant to be since you are seeing inside Batman's mind as they are f-ing with it. It was tough to keep things straight though.

True, I think if I read it all at once it will make some sense :tongue:

[EliSnow]

Final Crisis #6 comes out today. Let's see if I can make sense of this one.

[JustJon]

Final Crisis #6 comes out today. Let's see if I can make sense of this one.

Don't forget to pick up your Spiderman/Obama comic today.

[EliSnow]

Don't forget to pick up your Spiderman/Obama comic today.

Didn't pick it up.

Reading Final Crisis now, and Tawny the Tiger has a huge moment.

[EliSnow]

Okay, I finished this issue, and it's the best of the bunch so far. I was able to follow it much easier than the previous issues. That plus a ramp up of the action provided a really great read.

Oh and we find out the fate of Batman.

[booster11373]

Okay, I finished this issue, and it's the best of the bunch so far. I was able to follow it much easier than the previous issues. That plus a ramp up of the action provided a really great read.

Oh and we find out the fate of Batman.



Definitely the most readable of the series so far, personally after seeing the fate of Batman in this issue I prefer to think of this whole story as "outside" regular continuity and the ending of RIP as the way he "disappears" for awhile

[weekapaugjz]

Okay, I finished this issue, and it's the best of the bunch so far. I was able to follow it much easier than the previous issues. That plus a ramp up of the action provided a really great read.

Oh and we find out the fate of Batman.



i thought the issue was fantastic. and the fate of batman, the scenes are just amazing. i was really skeptical about how it was going to happen, but i feel this is just about as good as it could have happened.

[Tall_James]

Okay, I finished this issue, and it's the best of the bunch so far. I was able to follow it much easier than the previous issues. That plus a ramp up of the action provided a really great read.

Oh and we find out the fate of Batman.



Notice that Batman didn't go for the kill shot on Darkseid, he shot him in the shoulder.

[MisterSmith]

Didn't pick it up.

Reading Final Crisis now, and Tawny the Tiger has a huge moment.

Yeah, that ruled.

But I don't know why he didn't change into a giant tiger like he did in Trials of Shazam? Tawky Tawny seemed to be pretty formidable in that giant tiger form, so why not change when he is facing a life or death fight against Kalibak? I guess he thought the Tiger Tea would be enough (as, apparently, it was).

Okay, I finished this issue, and it's the best of the bunch so far. I was able to follow it much easier than the previous issues. That plus a ramp up of the action provided a really great read.

Oh and we find out the fate of Batman.



My biggest complaint is that the book is almost entirely a "rev up" for issue #7 and leaves everything on deck. It is almost too much for the last issue to effectively wrap up in a satisfying manner (IMO).

[EliSnow]

Okay, the book has been out for two days, and I'd like to discuss what happened with Batman without spoiler boxes. Does anyone have any issues with that?

JustJon? Anyone?

I won't post the discussion now but will wait until this afternoon to see what people say.

But as a clue:

Given what Darkseid did to Bats, he's still alive somewhere.

[Sheeplovr]

Don't forget to pick up your Spiderman/Obama comic today.

the silliest customers came in looking for it
the Colbert spider man book is actually entertaining and we still have a bunch of those but the bad drawing of obama sells like hot cakes

[Sheeplovr]

Final Crisis still doesn't make sense to me as well

[EliSnow]

BTW, when reading Darkseid speak in comics, does anyone else "hear" Michael Ironside's voice?

I've loved his voice work as Darkseid on Superman The Animated Series and Justice League, and now the character is always linked to that voice for me.

[MisterSmith]

BTW, when reading Darkseid speak in comics, does anyone else "hear" Michael Ironside's voice?

I've loved his voice work as Darkseid on Superman The Animated Series and Justice League, and now the character is always linked to that voice for me.

I keep hearing the voice from the old Super Friends cartoon - I wish I could switch it to Michael Ironside.

[MisterSmith]

Okay, the book has been out for two days, and I'd like to discuss what happened with Batman without spoiler boxes. Does anyone have any issues with that?

JustJon? Anyone?

I won't post the discussion now but will wait until this afternoon to see what people say.

But as a clue:

Given what Darkseid did to Bats, he's still alive somewhere.

I'm up for open discussion, but until then

The possibilities opened up by the Miracle Machine/God Machine also put a ton of stuff up in the air, including the death of Batman. It is a massive trump card and I have no idea how they are going to work it in without screwing up the story.

[EliSnow]

I'm up for open discussion, but until then

The possibilities opened up by the Miracle Machine/God Machine also put a ton of stuff up in the air, including the death of Batman. It is a massive trump card and I have no idea how they are going to work it in without screwing up the story.

I assume the device you are referring to was only used to get Supes back to the present from the future. Now that Supes is back, I don't think he could access it again (it's in the future), but we'll have to see.

[MisterSmith]

I assume the device you are referring to was only used to get Supes back to the present from the future. Now that Supes is back, I don't think he could access it again (it's in the future), but we'll have to see.

Yes, that's it. But the use of it was so nebulous, and who knows what exactly happened. They didn't state that all it did was send Superman back, just that it could do anything he thought about.

Maybe I should just chalk it up to the lack of clear story telling.

[Sheeplovr]

BTW, when reading Darkseid speak in comics, does anyone else "hear" Michael Ironside's voice?

I've loved his voice work as Darkseid on Superman The Animated Series and Justice League, and now the character is always linked to that voice for me.

i have Ed Wynn in my head

[MisterSmith]

i have Ed Wynn in my head

:lol:

Certainly makes him less intimidating.

[EliSnow]

Okay, since no one objected, I'm going to discuss Batman's fate as portrayed in Final Crisis #6.



As portrayed in that issue, Bats was struck by Darkseid's eye beams. Superman later came and went in and came out carrying a decayed Bats.

However, the beam that Bats was struck with was the "Omega Sanction" or as Darkseid called it, the "Death that is Life." Essentially, when struck, the victim is sent to a series of alternate realities, each worse than the last. Shilo Norman, the current Mister Miracle, was struck by the same beams as potrayed in the Seven Soldiers storyline and was able to escape.

So in some alternate reality Bruce Wayne is living some bad existance. So he's still alive, and thus, can be saved or perhaps even learn how to escape as Shilo did.

[cougarjake13]

Okay, since no one objected, I'm going to discuss Batman's fate as portrayed in Final Crisis #6.



As portrayed in that issue, Bats was struck by Darkseid's eye beams. Superman later came and went in and came out carrying a decayed Bats.

However, the beam that Bats was struck with was the "Omega Sanction" or as Darkseid called it, the "Death that is Life." Essentially, when struck, the victim is sent to a series of alternate realities, each worse than the last. Shilo Norman, the current Mister Miracle, was struck by the same beams as potrayed in the Seven Soldiers storyline and was able to escape.

So in some alternate reality Bruce Wayne is living some bad existance. So he's still alive, and thus, can be saved or perhaps even learn how to escape as Shilo did.



so is that a cop out to bring him back easier in the future ??

[TheMojoPin]

How is it a cop out? These are comic books...nobody stays dead. I prefer a story where they upfront show how the character can come back instead of writing themselves into a corner. Now we can enjoy stories with a "new" Batman until the old model comes back.

[Foster]

How is it a cop out? These are comic books...nobody stays dead. I prefer a story where they upfront show how the character can come back instead of writing themselves into a corner. Now we can enjoy stories with a "new" Batman until the old model comes back.

I totally agree with that, I hate how they brought back Green Arrow

[TheMojoPin]

I totally agree with that, I hate how they brought back Green Arrow

Yeah, that was really weak. Same with bringing back Green Lantern when they had actually succeeded in replacing those characters for years with well created characters that were arguably better and more interesting than the previous versions were.

[Foster]

Yeah, that was really weak. Same with bringing back Green Lantern when they had actually succeeded in replacing those characters for years with well created characters that were arguably better and more interesting than the previous versions were.

haven't read the Final Crisis yet, but I feel bringing back Barry Allen is a mistake.
It's been over 20 years, why dig up old characters

[TheMojoPin]

haven't read the Final Crisis yet, but I feel bringing back Barry Allen is a mistake.
It's been over 20 years, why dig up old characters

Are you fucking kidding me?

Ech, Barry Allen was awful. LEAVE HIM DEAD.

[Foster]

Are you fucking kidding me?

Ech, Barry Allen was awful. LEAVE HIM DEAD.

I agree, Wally West much better Flash

[JustJon]

Only Mark Waid was ever able to write Bart Allen well. Impulse was great, Kid Flash was bad, Bart as Flash was bad.

[EliSnow]

Are you fucking kidding me?

Ech, Barry Allen was awful. LEAVE HIM DEAD.

Where have you been? They announced Barry Allen was coming back last spring. Ut was in the mainstream media.

[TheMojoPin]

Where have you been? They announced Barry Allen was coming back last spring. Ut was in the mainstream media.

Not reading any Flash titles, thank God.

[MisterSmith]

Anybody read #7 yet? I am going to have to re-read it, because I am not entirely sure what happened.

I mean, some of the plot points were relatively clear but as a whole the book was terribly chaotic. I think I have had fever dreams that made more sense than most of this book.

[weekapaugjz]

Just finished reading it and there is a lot going on in it. Gonna re read it again later tonight.

[Tall_James]

I read #7 today in the hopes it would explain a lot of what 1-6 was going on about.

My review is a giant WTF!

[MisterSmith]

Just finished reading it and there is a lot going on in it. Gonna re read it again later tonight.

I read #7 today in the hopes it would explain a lot of what 1-6 was going on about.

My review is a giant WTF!

I am really glad I am not the only one. I was starting to think my book was missing pages or something.

Unfortunately it seems to be too early for any worthwhile summaries to be posted anywhere...

[Tall_James]

Unfortunately it seems to be too early for any worthwhile summaries to be posted anywhere...

If you find one, PLEASE post or link to it here.

[MisterSmith]

By the way, for anyone only reading the main Final Crisis series you should probably pick up Superman Beyond 3D before reading #7. There is a major plot point that won't make any sense if you didn't read SB3D.

If you find one, PLEASE post or link to it here.

I posted this a couple of pages ago, but the website The Annotated Final Crisis (http://theannotatedfinalcrisis.googlepages.com/) has been a pretty good site for filling in some holes. There are also some links on the site that are useful.

However, still no info for #7 yet - still listed as "Coming Soon!"

[weekapaugjz]

By the way, for anyone only reading the main Final Crisis series you should probably pick up Superman Beyond 3D before reading #7. There is a major plot point that won't make any sense if you didn't read SB3D.

Can you post it in spoilers for those who do not want to buy Superman beyond.

[MisterSmith]

Can you post it in spoilers for those who do not want to buy Superman beyond.

This article from David Uzumeri (http://www.funnybookbabylon.com/2009/01/24/final-crisis-superman-beyond-annotations-epilogue-mandrakk-a-brief-history/) explains things more thoroughly and with more gravitas than I can muster. Actually, it is probably better than the comic itself.

[MisterSmith]

Don't mean to post whore, but I stumbled onto a summary of Issue #7.

It is another article by David Uzumeri. (http://www.funnybookbabylon.com/2009/01/28/final-crisis-7-new-heaven-new-earth/#more-1443) I haven't gotten to read the whole thing yet because the computer I am updating finally finished and I want to go home, but his other articles have been pretty good. Enjoy!

[The Ogre]

Final Crisis 7 made my fucking eyes cross. I know Morrison is ususally apt to do some pretty densely packed writing, but this shit was impenetrable.

[EliSnow]

In the end, I think Final Crisis was one of Grant Morrison's usual brilliant messes. There were lots of brilliant little things that added up to way less than the sum of its parts. I just have way too many problems with the story, even the last issue.

What really happened to Darkseid after receiving the bullet? Yes, the Black Racer got him but what happened after that. How did he start the New Gods?

Did we really need the Japanese super team, really?

Why in the world was the story of the "Big Bad" told in Superman Beyond as opposed to the main Final Crisis story? If you buy a event crossover like this, the tie-ins should be optional books that help round the story out. But main plot points and characters shouldn't be developed in the tie-ins rather than the main story so that you have no idea who the character is, etc. when they appear in the freaking final issue!!

So Earth-51 is the home of the Kahmandu or whatever his name is? What exactly was Superman's plan with the big wish fulfillment machine? He didn't wish everything back to the way it was. It was just wishing for a happy ending? Come on.

Too many other things right nw to criticize.

[JustJon]

Can you post it in spoilers for those who do not want to buy Superman beyond.

You should be reading Geoff Johns' Superman.

[EliSnow]

You should be reading Geoff Johns' Superman.

Which is in Action Comics. Robinson is writing Superman in Superman.

[booster11373]

FC 7 and the whole series was like reading random words from a dictionary

[JustJon]

Which is in Action Comics. Robinson is writing Superman in Superman.

I was referring more the character than the title, since I couldn't remember which it was, just that Johns' was great and Busiek's blew. (And I usually like Busiek)

[EliSnow]

I was referring more the character than the title, since I couldn't remember which it was, just that Johns' was great and Busiek's blew. (And I usually like Busiek)

Yeah, I realized that after the fact. I like Busiek too, but didn't read his Superman comics.

[DH 215]

I read the 1 to 7 twice and I am still confused. I just do not get it. I do not understand the Aquaman panels at all.

[TheMojoPin]

Oh man, you guys have me drooling over reading Final Crisis.

[Tall_James]

From Newsarama.com's exit interview about Final Crisis with Grant Morrison. (http://www.newsarama.com/comics/010928-Grant-Final-Crisis.html)

To get the full Final Crisis experience as the author intended it, the reading order is as follows:

FINAL CRISIS # 1- 3
SUPERMAN BEYOND # 1- 2
SUBMIT
FINAL CRISIS # 4 – 5
BATMAN #682 – 683
FINAL CRISIS # 6 – 7

Now I guess I have to find those issues I didn't buy and try to piece it together myself.

Are there sites that have comics online via Torrent for downloading?

[JustJon]

Are there sites that have comics online via Torrent for downloading?

Look ye to the bay of pirates.

[Tall_James]

ARRRRHHHH! A very helpful member here already helped to me to point my compass there. Avast ye scurvy retailers!

[EliSnow]

From Newsarama.com's exit interview about Final Crisis with Grant Morrison. (http://www.newsarama.com/comics/010928-Grant-Final-Crisis.html)

To get the full Final Crisis experience as the author intended it, the reading order is as follows:

FINAL CRISIS # 1- 3
SUPERMAN BEYOND # 1- 2
SUBMIT
FINAL CRISIS # 4 – 5
BATMAN #682 – 683
FINAL CRISIS # 6 – 7




This shows the organizational/editorial mess that was this event. First, there was no notice or information provided prior to or as the event went along to make this known. For instance, Final Crisis #5 should have said at the end, "Check out Batman #682 for the next part of Final Crisis." But it didn't. And because it didn't, people may have missed tie-ins or read things out of order.

Second, at least for Superman Beyond, the books were published out of order. Superman Beyond #2 came out after Final Crisis #6, in which Superman appeared to go back in time.

Plus, throw in the continuity mess between Countdown, Death of the New Gods and Final Crisis #1, it's unbelievable.

[booster11373]

it's unbelievable.

its unreadable!

[weekapaugjz]

This shows the organizational/editorial mess that was this event. First, there was no notice or information provided prior to or as the event went along to make this known. For instance, Final Crisis #5 should have said at the end, "Check out Batman #682 for the next part of Final Crisis." But it didn't. And because it didn't, people may have missed tie-ins or read things out of order.

Second, at least for Superman Beyond, the books were published out of order. Superman Beyond #2 came out after Final Crisis #6, in which Superman appeared to go back in time.

Plus, throw in the continuity mess between Countdown, Death of the New Gods and Final Crisis #1, it's unbelievable.

I just had that exact conversation with the owner of the local shop. He was very worked up about it.

[weekapaugjz]

its unreadable!

I wouldn't say its unreadable, just frustrating. I went back last night and read issues 1-3 and submit cause I couldn't sleep. Its starting to make a lot more sense. This afternoon I'm gonna read 4 and 5, Batman 682 and 683, and then 6 and 7.

i know some people like a straight forward story but I like the fact this series is making me really think about what I'm reading.

[EliSnow]

I wouldn't say its unreadable, just frustrating. I went back last night and read issues 1-3 and submit cause I couldn't sleep. Its starting to make a lot more sense. This afternoon I'm gonna read 4 and 5, Batman 682 and 683, and then 6 and 7.

i know some people like a straight forward story but I like the fact this series is making me really think about what I'm reading.

I have no problem with any work of art that makes you really think. But the way this whole story was presented hurt it's ability to engage people in that manner.

Part of it is the fault of DC, part is the problem with the art, and and part is the way that Morrison told the story.

[weekapaugjz]

So legion of 3 worlds #3 finally came out today. I thought it was a pretty awesome issue. Lots of action, the art by perez is very nice, and an unexpected ending.

Anyone else reading this mini?

[EliSnow]

So legion of 3 worlds #3 finally came out today. I thought it was a pretty awesome issue. Lots of action, the art by perez is very nice, and an unexpected ending.

Anyone else reading this mini?

I am. I'll be picking it up after work.

BTW, here's a long interview (http://comics.ign.com/articles/950/950703p3.html) with Grant Morrison about Final Crisis. I think it shows the guy's a brilliant guy with great ideas, but his execution is not always great.

[JustJon]

So legion of 3 worlds #3 finally came out today. I thought it was a pretty awesome issue. Lots of action, the art by perez is very nice, and an unexpected ending.

Anyone else reading this mini?

Love Legion, will buy the trade

And the Lead-ins all conflicted storywise. Death of the New Gods, Countdown, etc. all conflicted the stories.

[EliSnow]

Okay, I read the Legion of Three Worlds, and I have to say that I was very psyched about the ending, which I believed corrected an "injustice" DC committed in the recent past. I would bet that Johns started planning the moment the injustice appened to do this, and I'm happy he did.

This is a completely different type of event comic than Final Crisis was. Yes, it may not be as "deep" or meaningful as Final Crisis, but I like this one a hell of a lot more. And it solidifies in my mind that you're doing an event comic, you really should get George Perez to do it.

[Sinestro]

What was the "injustice" for people that don't know comics.

[EliSnow]

What was the "injustice" for people that don't know comics.

The death of a popular character.

[Sinestro]

Still don't know. Be more specific.

[EliSnow]

Still don't know. Be more specific.

Bart Allen

[Captain Rooster]

OK ... so I am a huge fan of Infinite Crisis as a stand-alone book. The Superboy Prime story, the tragedy of his character, is an awesome read. I love when he loses it on the Teen Titans--he reminds me of an out-of-control Iago from Othello ... but I digress.

Final Crisis ... I just paid waaay too much for the hardcover ... what the F&$% is going on!? What a total disapointment. Why would DC put out a graphic that basically has ZERO narrative cohesion. What a disapointment--the ONLY positive, great art.

~:furious:Rooster