A question for people that were adults in the 80's re: hating america

[realmenhatelife]

There's alot of talk lately about Ron being anti american or whatever- and we're headed into a recession and sunk into a very unpopular war, in general people seem very bummed about the state of the country. Were things this pessemistic before Reagan took office, or during the last recession? I'm 26, so I was alive but not old enough to really be aware of what was going on. I understand things run in cycles, and try to remind myself and others that things will always seem exaggerated without the proper scope, but when someone says 'man ron is so antiamerican' I have a really hard time imagining anyone being pro-american.

[drjoek]

Col. Jessep: You want answers?
Kaffee: I think I'm entitled.
Col. Jessep: You want answers?
Kaffee: I want the truth.
Col. Jessep: You can't handle the truth!!
Col. Jessep: Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have more responsibility here than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. I know deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you don't want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

[A.J.]

It was nowhere as near as bad as the Carter years.

[Hottub]

It was nowhere as near as bad as the Carter and FmJeff years.

Oh yeah,
http://www.whitehousehistory.org/04/subs_pph/images/uploads/40/47.jpg

[Alice S. Fuzzybutt]

It was nowhere as near as bad as the Carter years.

I am what you might call a bleeding-heart liberal but I do have to agree with that statement. I was a kid back then but I do remember cars lined up on my street during the gas shortage (VERY long line as the nearest gas station was a MILE away).

I also remember several stretches during the summer when my dad didn't have enough money to pay the electricity bill (I suppose during the winter he sacrificed another bill but I wouldn't know). I thought it was great! It was like camping. We BBQd every night and used candles and flashlights. I know my dad was immensely embarrassed by this and made us SWEAR not to tell the neighbors. One time the utility man came to our house (I guess to hook up the electricity) and I came running into the backyard shouting, "The Lilco man's here dad!" He got all flustered and told me to be quiet.

[Tallman388]

I remember the last recession, and I might have been more ignorant than I am now, but I don't remember as much pessimism. Of course the news cycle was much slower back then, so the pessimism may have been there, just not as visible.

[Furtherman]

I remember the last recession, and I might have been more ignorant than I am now, but I don't remember as much pessimism. Of course the news cycle was much slower back then, so the pessimism may have been there, just not as visible.

I feel the same way. The doom and gloom scenario I'm feeling is actually worrying me a bit... like I have to start hoarding.... brains... again!!!

[Crispy123]

Maybe people seem anti American because this Bush's America, not the one set up 230 some odd years ago. No democracy, only fascism.

[Mike Teacher]

I too remember the Carter Years; bad times.

But really really bad times in some of our lifetimes? Hell you tell me, Blowhard too, check out this timeline for the year 1968, for That election year, and with That war.

It reads like a horror movie; as fucked up as we are now? This country was FUBAR.

If you Google 'timeline 1968' you get several heres one; what a read. Yow.

1968 Timeline (http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/1968/reference/timeline.html)

[DarkHippie]

Things were just as bad during the Reagan years in new york

[Tallman388]

I feel the same way. The doom and gloom scenario I'm feeling is actually worrying me a bit... like I have to start hoarding.... brains... again!!!

I'm thinking this gloom may result from having to be a more responsible member of society. I couldn't have cared less about the last recession because I could still get my dependable summer job and make some cash. Now I have to worry that this recession might cost me my job. So I've also begun to hoard, mostly beer, and plenty of it. A wise man once told me that when things are rough, beer and smokes will get you through. He better be right.

[Kris10]

I was a kid back then but I do remember cars lined up on my street during the gas shortage (VERY long line as the nearest gas station was a MILE away).

I wasn't around during this time but thats why I don't complain about the gas prices now because I heard the stories from my dad about how he had to wait in line to get gas. I tell my friends as long as there IS gas, I don't mind paying for it.

[Recyclerz]

I too remember the Carter Years; bad times.

But really really bad times in some of our lifetimes? Hell you tell me, Blowhard too, check out this time line for the year 1968, for That election year, and with That war.

It reads like a horror movie; as fucked up as we are now? This country was FUBAR.

If you Google 'timeline 1968' you get several heres one; what a read. Yow.

1968 Timeline (http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/1968/reference/timeline.html)

I started typing this screed at work but then got interrupted by, well, having to work, so let me preface it by leveraging it off M the T’s remarks which I think are spot on.

Since you asked, and I'm old, I'll tell you a story, Sonny.

Although I was too young to care at the time, I believe most of the left/right, pro- vs. anti-American rhetoric that we still toss around was forged in the 1960's. As the baby boomers started hitting their rebellious teen-age years, and as the Vietnam war was proceeding (importantly - WITH a draft), there was a lot of rhetoric tossed around by the student activists/hippies against the establishment/their parents and "THE MAAAANNN" that was chock full of real anti-American sentiment and real Leftist (Socialist/Commie) influence. In retrospect, it was pretty silly and immature but since it was mostly voiced and led by what I would consider spoiled rich and upper-middle class kids, it engendered a reaction amongst both the establishment (aka "THE MAAANNN") and working class folks who were just trying to get by (and maybe a little ahead). The Archie Bunker character in All in the Family represented the latter group. (Look it up on You-Tube or on the oldies TV channels if you've never heard of Archie.)

The '70's followed with our first L in the War column (Hey, history sticklers, I’m counting the War of 1812 as a tie.), two oil crises (1973 and 1979) and a bad dose of inflation due to some bad Federal Reserve managing. Although Republicans were in the White House for the first half of the decade, Carter takes the fall for the bad times that AJ and Alice are referencing- the gas lines, our embassy people being held hostage by the crazy Iranians that kicked out the Shah and the failed attempt to spring them, etc. happened on his watch and he was unable to get the PR train wreck to stop. What really made the late '70's suck historically though was the inflation and Carter actually took the most important step to fix it by appointing Paul Volcker to the Fed. Reserve. Volcker, in order to get rid of the high inflation rate, slammed the brakes on the money supply, jacked up interest rates to like 20% and set off a recession that really was the worst since the depression. The voters in 1980 blamed Carter for this (and the other stuff) and elected Reagan who promised to make the USA No. 1 again with tax cuts, less government and by throwing the Commies a beatdown.

Reagan at the time was as divisive as W is now. The Libs (myself included by this time) blamed him for the really bad economic times (1981-83) which really weren’t his fault (see Volcker, Paul above), while his supporters gave him credit for the economic recovery (1984-87 roughly) (which again belonged to Volcker). Culturally, the Conservative movement, which started with Barry Goldwater back in 1964, finally got hold of the national agenda with Reagan in charge and their talking points – cut taxes, government sucks except for the military which needs the biggest swinging dick in the galaxy – became the accepted common wisdom.

All the Presidents since have been pretty conservative, if you use ‘60’s liberalism as the benchmark. (W has been a clusterfuck of historic dimensions, which I may have mentioned on here a time or two thousand.) IMHO “the kill ‘em all & take no prisoners” rhetoric that dominates the mass media these days was launched by the Newt Gingrich posse in the early ‘90’s as they, successfully for awhile, grabbed hold of Congress, with their Limbaugh/Fox News enablers in the media, by going all out to demonize anybody whoever challenged their assertions. Their audience, who emotionally have picked their side and never breathe the air outside their self-created bubble, are the ones who call up and accuse Ron of being a Commie, since he has the nerve to think for himself and tears gaping holes in the “logic” that supports their universe.

Well kids, that’s all for today. Grandpa has to take his lumbago medicine and get some sleep.

[FezPaul]

Ron loves America. Except for that awful part west of the Hudson.

[Recyclerz]

I wasn't around during this time but thats why I don't complain about the gas prices now because I heard the stories from my dad about how he had to wait in line to get gas. I tell my friends as long as there IS gas, I don't mind paying for it.

Rouski has been paying attention in her ECO classes. The '70's gas lines were really caused by old laws on the books against "price gouging". Since the supply of gas had gone down due to the oil embargos of the '70's and demand stayed the same, the price should have shot up. But since the oil companies couldn't sell the gas at a higher price and since their costs had shot up (crude oil) they basically restricted their production to the legal minimums and rationing was put into effect. Basically stupid.

Nowadays, we ration by price (Hello $4/gallon) but at least I don't have to get up at 3:00 AM to go park in a gas line.

[Recyclerz]

Ron loves America. Except for that awful part west of the Hudson.

And east of the FDR drive. :wink:

[Gvac]

I honestly don't believe anyone thinks Ron Bennington is "anti-American" merely because he has the audacity to question the government and not march in lockstep to whatever agenda is being pushed, whether it comes from the right or left. If they do, I suggest they read The Federalist Papers, The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, and The Bill of Rights.

That being said, I don't think anyone who isn't old enough to remember the early 80's can fully appreciate how bad the spirit and psyche of America was when Reagan first took office. There was the Vietnam mess and the Nixon administration in the early 70's; gas shortages, inflation, the Iranian Hostage situation, and The Carter Administration at the end of the decade. There weren't too many people feeling particularly optimistic back then.

Love him or hate him, Ronald Reagan restored a lot of national pride in this country. He was a polarizing figure, but he won over some Democrats.

The reason I respect Reagan so much is because he knew what he believed in and didn't waiver. He didn't take polls or stick his finger in the air to see what position would be the most popular; he made decisions that he felt with all his heart were the right ones. Even when I didn't agree with him, I knew he honestly believed he was doing what was best for his country and you have to respect that.

[TheMojoPin]

The reason I respect Reagan so much is because he knew what he believed in and didn't waiver. He didn't take polls or stick his finger in the air to see what position would be the most popular; he made decisions that he felt with all his heart were the right ones. Even when I didn't agree with him, I knew he honestly believed he was doing what was best for his country and you have to respect that.

But why is this always a good thing? I unerstand "sticking to your guns," but at the same time, if your job has as much power as his, I'd like to think you'd be willing to change your mind if things go bad. Thinking that he's right doesn't make him right. Look at what we've had for the last 7 years.

[PapaBear]

I remember the last recession, and I might have been more ignorant than I am now, but I don't remember as much pessimism. Of course the news cycle was much slower back then, so the pessimism may have been there, just not as visible.
I remember it pretty vividly. I think the reason it didn't create as much pessimism back then is because of how much better Reagan was at distracting the public. He had a better talent at it, people didn't think he was a total retard, and he also had the benefit of the slower news saturation. For a while in the late 80's, about the only thing you'd see on the news was about the Iran/Contra hearings. People got so bored with that, they were almost happy to have Jessica McClure to pay attention to, when she fell down the well.

[jonyrotn]

Nowadays, we ration by price (Hello $4/gallon) but at least I don't have to get up at 3:00 AM to go park in a gas line.
Another words, as long as people who can afford to pay are not to inconvenienced, then price gouging is fine? Just price out people with less money then me...Right?
Never mind, the single mother who has to wait tables for 13 hours, just to put half a tank of gas into her '81 Cordoba...She can get to work an serve up my melon plate with cottage cheese and a Perrier, by bus..
I guess you're right..Fuck her..If she really wanted to drive a car, she would've have been me..

[Recyclerz]

Another words, as long as people who can afford to pay are not to inconvenienced, then price gouging is fine? Just price out people with less money then me...Right?
Never mind, the single mother who has to wait tables for 13 hours, just to put half a tank of gas into her '81 Cordoba...She can get to work an serve up my melon plate with cottage cheese and a Perrier, by bus..
I guess you're right..Fuck her..If she really wanted to drive a car, she would've have been me..

In other words, that's not what I said at all.

I was making a point about the law of supply and demand. When the supply of anything goes down and demand stays the same prices go up. In the '70's, when there were laws on the books that said stations couldn't raise their prices to cover the cost of buying new supplies, the gas ran out and everybody suffered, particularly the working class folks, and several people in this thread have alluded to those consequences. Nowadays the worldwide demand is growing faster than supply, hence the high prices which I don't like any more than you do. If you can convince enough politicians that there should be a law that gas shouldn't cost more than $1.50 a gallon, go for it and we can relive the magic that was the Soviet Union. But unless you have a (working) magic wand and/or billions of gallons of crude oil under and a petroleum refinery in your back yard, I don't think either of us are going to "fix" the price of gas.

Also, since you don't know me you don't know this, so I'll tell you: I resent anybody telling me that I don't have empathy for single, working mothers, particularly because I was raised by one, reasonably sucessfully by some standards. That experience has not only shaped my politics but also the way I live my life every day.

So, in other words, lighten up, Francis.

[Mike Teacher]

if your job has as much power as his, I'd like to think you'd be willing to change your mind if things go bad.

Amen.

[Mike Teacher]

“If we can't think for ourselves, if we're unwilling to question authority, then we're just putty in the hands of those in power. But if the citizens are educated and form their own opinions, then those in power work for us. In every country, we should be teaching our children the scientific method and the reasons for a Bill of Rights. With it comes a certain decency, humility and community spirit. In the demon-haunted world that we inhabit by virtue of being human, this may be all that stands between us and the enveloping darkness.”

Last paragrah of the last chapter 'Real Patriots Ask Questions' from the book 'The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark', by Carl Sagan

[Fez4PrezN2008]

Don't worry... it will get better !!!!







then worse





then better





then worser





then you croak.......
:annoyed:

[Philly Franko]

Lets start a War with IRAN and maybe no one notices the fall of the Dollar and Loss of Jobs ,Food Shortages,bird Flu etc etc...:flush:

[Bulldogcakes]

It reads like a horror movie; as fucked up as we are now? This country was FUBAR


Holey shit I just made this connection. Remember the NYC crane accident a few weeks ago? The name of the bar in the building that was demolished on east 50th St was FUBAR.

Can't make this shit up.

[Bulldogcakes]

Things were just as bad during the Reagan years in new york

Actually no, and not even close (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_New_York_City_(1946-1977)). The city was basically bankrupt in 1975 and had to be bailed out by the state and the Teachers Union just to meet its bills. Crime was sky high, people were fleeing the city in droves, there was the blackout (and looting) of 1977, the stock market was trading around 800 (you heard me right, 800) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:DJIA_historical_graph.svg). It was far worse by every measure.

[Stankfoot]

Love him or hate him, Ronald Reagan restored a lot of national pride in this country. He was a polarizing figure, but he won over some Democrats.


And he invented "Cut and Run" -

"Reagan Orders Marines out of Beirut, Following Collapse of Lebanese Cabinet
Authorizes Wider Military Action

Following a rapid deterioration of conditions in Beirut, President Reagan Feb. 7 ordered the U.S. Marines of the multinational peacekeeping force in Lebanon to begin withdrawing to U.S. ships offshore.

Reagan's decision followed the resignation of Lebanese President Amin Gemayel's cabinet Feb. 5 and a military collapse that left Moslem militiamen in control of western and southern Beirut.

As a show of continuing support for Gemayel, however, Reagan coupled his decision to withdraw with new rules of engagement that allowed U.S. commanders to mount naval and air attacks on antigovernment forces in Lebanon."

[A.J.]

And he invented "Cut and Run" -

"Reagan Orders Marines out of Beirut, Following Collapse of Lebanese Cabinet
Authorizes Wider Military Action

Following a rapid deterioration of conditions in Beirut, President Reagan Feb. 7 ordered the U.S. Marines of the multinational peacekeeping force in Lebanon to begin withdrawing to U.S. ships offshore.

Reagan's decision followed the resignation of Lebanese President Amin Gemayel's cabinet Feb. 5 and a military collapse that left Moslem militiamen in control of western and southern Beirut.

As a show of continuing support for Gemayel, however, Reagan coupled his decision to withdraw with new rules of engagement that allowed U.S. commanders to mount naval and air attacks on antigovernment forces in Lebanon."

But we brought the troops home and saved more U.S. lives from dying in a pointless intervention in a place we had no business being in!