Stop Loss

[thepaulo]

It's probably the best movie so far this year but this is not a review but an opportunity to discuss the difficult issues that the film raises.
People are uncomfortable with movies that deal with the Iraq war but this movie deals with subjects that are the most controversial and uncomfortable to examine.
The film honors soldiers and the sacrifice and commitment they make for every American, but it questions the contract they make with the American Government. I think the film handles this very difficult subject as well as is possible.
Essentially the question is.....
If you serve honorably in battle and fulfill your commitment to this country, can this country then tell you that they are extending your service and you must return to battle?
There's a lot more to this but that's it in brief.
I'm sure most Americans don't want to face these questions.

[joeyballsack]

Yes they can.

You sign the papers and your government property for the next 8 years. Sorry you didnt pay attention when you voluntarily signed your contract, but thats the agreement these guys put themselves in.

[Kris10]

Then they try to forget all about you when your 8 yrs is up.

[thepaulo]

If it is really that cut and dry.....you sign up for 8 years....then yes....I guess they are obligated.

[joeyballsack]

Then they try to forget all about you when your 8 yrs is up.

Thats not really true.

There are a multitude of places vets can go to for help, but its up to the individual to seek out the help they need. Nope..there isnt anyone to hold peoples hand and walk them through the process, but do we really want that to be the way it is ?

[keithy_19]

Thats not really true.

There are a multitude of places vets can go to for help, but its up to the individual to seek out the help they need. Nope..there isnt anyone to hold peoples hand and walk them through the process, but do we really want that to be the way it is ?

We need to have better services for war vets. I believe they are passing a bill about that right now in congress. Though, we'll see how much it helps.

[Snacks]

im looking forward to seeing this film. is phillipe oscar worthy?

[Jujubees2]

Joey,

I think you're mistaken on the Stop Loss rule.

The "stop loss" orders mean personnel who could otherwise leave the military when their volunteer commitments expire will be forced to remain to the end of their overseas deployments and up to another 90 days after they come home. "Stop movement" orders also bar soldiers from moving to new assignments during the restricted period. The orders do not extend any unit's stay overseas.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-01-05-army-troops_x.htm


And our beloved President has been trying to make cuts to veterans health care.

Bush FY 2006 Budget Proposal Might Mean 'Deep Cuts' in Veterans' Health Care (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/19982.php)

[Kris10]

Thats not really true.

There are a multitude of places vets can go to for help, but its up to the individual to seek out the help they need. Nope..there isnt anyone to hold peoples hand and walk them through the process, but do we really want that to be the way it is ?

Don't even get me going on this one.

I didn't say there was a multitude of places they can go for help but these vets do need to jump through hoops to get the care they need. If you don't believe me, google it. I dealt with this first hand.

[thepaulo]

In the movie....Stop Loss is called a back door draft.

[Jujubees2]

In the movie....Stop Loss is called a back door draft.

I think John Kerry referred to it the same way during the 2004 election.

[Thebazile78]

There's an article/interview with the director in this week's Movies section of the NY Times (if I read the byline & date stamp correctly, it appeared as a cover feature in the Arts & Leisure section this past Sunday) about this film.

I think it actually sounds very interesting and I hope it does begin to raise questions about how to handle the manpower aspect of our current two-front war.

Apparently, the director's half-brother is a soldier whose experiences in Iraq were a starting point for what this film grew into.

It sounds very interesting to me, actually.

[thepaulo]

Part of the problem is the trauma that the returning veterans are dealing with.....
The best sublimate that pain effectively.....but none of us should ever assume it is easy.....
actually the best soldiers are probably sociopaths that don't have to deal with their feelings for the pain and the suffering of others.....War is a necessary business in the world we live in but
the residual effects are staggering.

[Thebazile78]

Part of the problem is the trauma that the returning veterans are dealing with.....
The best sublimate that pain effectively.....but none of us should ever assume it is easy.....
actually the best soldiers are probably sociopaths that don't have to deal with their feelings for the pain and the suffering of others.....War is a necessary business in the world we live in but
the residual effects are staggering.

Agreed that the residual effects are staggering.

Agreed that part of the problem is the traumas the vets are returning with, both emotional and physical. I am convinced that it does something to you. How it affects you long-term is different from person-to-person...think about it. There were guys who've fought in every war who come home with no outward ill effects ... and then there are the guys who are diagnosed with "shell shock" ... "battle fatigue" ... "post-traumatic stress disorder" ... which are all different generations' ways of saying "overload."

As for the best soldiers being sociopaths, well ... I disagree. I don't think that the "best soldiers" are sociopaths. Different people react to things differently ... just because they're not all coming back catatonic doesn't make them less human. (True, there's probably a small percentage of them who are sociopaths, but that doesn't mean all of them are.)

[Enabler]

Im very ignorant on this topic but Im looking forward to seeing the movie. It seems like the "fine print" in any contract can come back to bite you in the ass. It sucks, but if you join the armed forces these days you should expect to experience some fucked up shit and you should expect to finish out the maximum possible term of service the military can get you for. Does the military ever extend terms when we're not at war?

[Thebazile78]

Im very ignorant on this topic but Im looking forward to seeing the movie. It seems like the "fine print" in any contract can come back to bite you in the ass. It sucks, but if you join the armed forces these days you should expect to experience some fucked up shit and you should expect to finish out the maximum possible term of service the military can get you for. Does the military ever extend terms when we're not at war?

They're not supposed to extend your term of service and there's no reason why they would unless it's a "national emergency."

If I read the article correctly, the "stop loss" clause comes into effect during times of national emergency.

Thinking about this makes me wonder if anyone has used this as a rationale for reinstating the draft...it would solve a manpower question, but would raise other questions. Personally, I think it's a foolhardy proposition with how "professional" today's Armed Forces are.

[thepaulo]

Aside from the fact that the war has been mismanaged from the beginning....
isn't it time to start thinking creatively.....pull the troops out and flood the country with undercover operatives.....(crazy talk I know...don't worry....I got million more dumb ideas like that)

[Thebazile78]

Aside from the fact that the war has been mismanaged from the beginning....
isn't it time to start thinking creatively.....pull the troops out and flood the country with undercover operatives.....(crazy talk I know...don't worry....I got million more dumb ideas like that)

Gee Paul, with ideas like that, maybe you should run for Congress.

[TheMojoPin]

Agreed that the residual effects are staggering.

Agreed that part of the problem is the traumas the vets are returning with, both emotional and physical. I am convinced that it does something to you. How it affects you long-term is different from person-to-person...think about it. There were guys who've fought in every war who come home with no outward ill effects ... and then there are the guys who are diagnosed with "shell shock" ... "battle fatigue" ... "post-traumatic stress disorder" ... which are all different generations' ways of saying "overload."

As for the best soldiers being sociopaths, well ... I disagree. I don't think that the "best soldiers" are sociopaths. Different people react to things differently ... just because they're not all coming back catatonic doesn't make them less human. (True, there's probably a small percentage of them who are sociopaths, but that doesn't mean all of them are.)

This book is an excellent analysis as to how the psyche of modern soliders is effected by their training and combat (it centers around the invasion of Baghdad in 2003):

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/042520040X.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

It's also going to be the basis for an HBO miniseries this summer by David Simon, the man behind The Wire:

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/mS9_wtekt8c&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/mS9_wtekt8c&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

One of the more interesting points I've seen on this issue is the difference between how soldiers got home up until Korea and then from Vietnam afterwards. Until Korea, soldiers were literally shipped home. It took them much longer to get home, surrounded by other soldiers, allowing most of them to make the adjustment from "combat mode" to the rest of the world. With Vietnam, guys were sent hom much quicker, and now they can be back in the States within a day. The effect is much more jarring and potentially damaging, and a lot of these guys ultimately can't disconnect with such a sudden shift.

[thepaulo]

The issue of adjustment to society is easily handled.......if...........
enough people cared.








(of course it also helps i the Right people care.)

[Contra]

I saw this film today and thought it was very good. Great performances by most. It also brings to light a lot of the post trumatic stress that these people come home with.

My cousin actually had the stop-loss clause removed from his contract. He also had it written that he couldn't be called back to duty once he was out and inactive. That's also something they are doing a lot of now. Of course I wondered at the time (he was in the Marines '98-2001) why he needed to do all of that. 5 months after he got out 9-11 happened. If not for his contract stipulations he would have been called back into active duty. They actually tried to get him back in, but the contract made it cut and dry.

If you are going in read ALL of the contract, and get everything in writing!

[scottinnj]

Yes they can.

You sign the papers and your government property for the next 8 years. Sorry you didnt pay attention when you voluntarily signed your contract, but thats the agreement these guys put themselves in.

Then they try to forget all about you when your 8 yrs is up.

If it is really that cut and dry.....you sign up for 8 years....then yes....I guess they are obligated.

QFT!!

To all of you.

The only thing I can add to this is that stop-loss is very common. In Desert Storm, all orders for discharge and for PCS were stopped Army-wide. But that was the cool war, so no one in the media complained about it. Now the war we got going sucks, and everyone is all boo-hooing about stop loss.
I got no love for complaints about stop loss, and I hope all the dirt bags deserting and going to Canada get sent back and thrown in jail. It's not like the 60s anymore. No Draft. You volunteered. Man up and do the job.

[scottinnj]

Don't even get me going on this one.

I didn't say there was a multitude of places they can go for help but these vets do need to jump through hoops to get the care they need. If you don't believe me, google it. I dealt with this first hand.

No shit. Even in the Clinton years, when we were promised "Gulf War Syndrome" was going to be dealt with, I was diagnosed with PTSD in the Kansas City VA hospital, and still had to pay for my treatment because my wife and I made 45 grand the previous year. The IRS made sure of it by garnishing my pay of the final 1500 bucks I "owed" the VA system 5 years after my 30 day treatment program.

Republican or Democrat, veteran or draft dodger, it doesn't matter who is in the White House. If you need help as a veteran due to illnesses or injuries incurred during your service, you have three options:

1. Have a strong will and deal with it on your own.

2. Have a good private health insurance that will cover pre-existing mental and physical illnesses

3. Have the support of family and freinds who can help you deal with your problems both financially and spiritually.

If you don't have access to at least one of those three options as a veteran after you are discharged, I hate to say it, but you're fucked. If you are thinking about joining and you're reading this, think real hard about that before you sign the papers. It's 8 years you give up in one form or another that you'll never get back.

You're not unpatriotic if you change your mind.

There are more ways to serve your country then just join the military. I did it, was and still am proud of it, but I've never looked down on people who thought about it then went on to something else instead. I do have problems with the ones who joined and then decided it was "too hard"-there are other ways to pay for college.

[thepaulo]

David Milch(Deadwood, John From Cinncinatti, NYPD Blue) is doing a mini series on HBO based on the book Generation Kill....will America care?

[TheMojoPin]

David Milch(Deadwood, John From Cinncinatti, NYPD Blue) is doing a mini series on HBO based on the book Generation Kill....will America care?

Wow, absolutely nobody has mentioned this already in this very thread on this very page.

[thepaulo]

wow...mojo...glad to see you care.....actually it wasn't mentioned by name.

I give up.