Build A Fence

[SatCam]

I know this topic has seemed to somewhat fade into obscurity in recent months, but my local congressman just got back from the Mexican border and declared that more fencing needs to be put up. Part of his district encompasses Danbury, which has a pretty significant illegal immigrant problem.

I got me to thinking about this fence that they're building. I have always been against it, but tonight I guess it was just bothering me a lot. I just can't believe a good portion of this country is looking to separate itself from its southern neighbor with a fence!

http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/061005/061005_WPFence_hmed_7p.hlarge.jpg

Fuck that! American is the land of opportunity. No can lay claim to this land...... it belongs to all of us. Why do we think we can tell people who unfortunately were born in a place not as well off that they can't live with "us"? My post is not about "they do the jobs that we don't want to do" although of course that is often true. It is about living with fellow human beings.


The bottom line is we can try to fence out everyone who we don't want in the country, but we are really just fencing ourselves in.


I'm talking about peace and love my friends

[oh_kee_pa]

i hate your post with all my life...

i dont believe in the "whoever wants to come in can come in" theory...
if they want to do it then do it hte right way and pay taxes. Get educated, learn the language.

If that is done then I am all for it. But, illegal aliens are the downfalls of civilization and are turning us into a 3rd world country

[Tall_James]

I wonder what Robert Frost would say?

Aside from "HELP! I'M BURIED ALIVE".

[KC2OSO]

I'm talking about peace and love my friends

Um, no. You are talking about the forced redistribution of wealth otherwise known as Socialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism). Who pays for all of these people's health care here in fucking Fantasy Land? Who pays for their schools? Their roads? Their food? Their legal services? Where does the money comes from?

PS - I think a fence is a fucking stupid idea.

[NortonRules]

SatCam is perhaps the dumbest person I've ever encountered in my life.
We should open up all the jails, too, right?

[Devo37]

i hate your post with all my life...

i dont believe in the "whoever wants to come in can come in" theory...
if they want to do it then do it hte right way and pay taxes. Get educated, learn the language.

If that is done then I am all for it. But, illegal aliens are the downfalls of civilization and are turning us into a 3rd world country

what he said.

[Tall_James]

SatCam is perhaps the dumbest person I've ever encountered in my life.
We should open up all the jails, too, right?

You're entitled to your opinion but the personal attacks will not be tolerated.

[SatCam]

SatCam is perhaps the dumbest person I've ever encountered in my life.
We should open up all the jails, too, right?

actually that was gonna be my next thread

[Stankfoot]

The bottom line is we can try to fence out everyone who we don't want in the country, but we are really just fencing ourselves in.


I'm talking about peace and love my friends

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/stankfoot/pot.jpg

[high fly]

i hate your post with all my life...

i dont believe in the "whoever wants to come in can come in" theory...
if they want to do it then do it hte right way and pay taxes. Get educated, learn the language.

If that is done then I am all for it. But, illegal aliens are the downfalls of civilization and are turning us into a 3rd world country



I take a conservative line on this one.
I look back through our history, and look at what our founding fathers said and did.
The founding fathers, oh so wise, provide a template for what we must do in order to restore the greatness we one had.

We must go back to the immigration policy we had that built this great country by gawwwd from sea to shining sea.
There we will find our most cherished traditional values that define who and what we are as a people.
We look at the giants who founded our great republic and their immigration policy was everybody is welcome!
This nation grew and became great by waves of immigrants and it was only after about 100 years that some filthy nasty LIBRULS! decided to change up everything with a bunch of dopey bureaucracy and federal expansionto regulate the free market in workers instead of seeing this as a states rights issue that it truly is.


And sti;l massive waves of immigrants flooded in after the first laws were passed, because of the conservative business principle of the market deciding instead of pointy-headed beltway bureacrats in WASHINGTON trying to interfere with the business cycle that draws so much labor to or shores.

We NEED the waves of immigrants just as we always have, have any of you considered that they can be relied upon to pay a large chunk of your Social Security?

Let-em come in, and let them do as they always have done.
The first generation doesn't learn the language well, but works hard and establishes a business and lives in an ethnic enclave of people like him. He retains the ways of the old country, to be maintained by the next generation, which speaks English, but retains close ties to the Old Country.

This is great about America, that we have enclaves of Armenians in Los Angeles; Chinatowns in major cities as well as Little Italys, French Quarters, Russian communities in the northwest and Scandinavians in Minnesota.







And just when the fence is built, some blabbermouth is gonna tell them Mexicans about boats!
And won't that be a fine kettle of fish?

[SatCam]

i hate your post with all my life...

i dont believe in the "whoever wants to come in can come in" theory...
if they want to do it then do it hte right way and pay taxes. Get educated, learn the language.

If that is done then I am all for it. But, illegal aliens are the downfalls of civilization and are turning us into a 3rd world country

I know I didnt cover that in my post, but I don't disagree that immigrants shouldn't pay taxes. But we can't limit our country to people who are educated and speak english. I think darwinism will take it's course on the dumb ones. And if you don't want to learn english, that's your problem.

As far as us turning into a 3rd world country, there are people whose families have been here for generations who are less refined than immigrants, both legal and illegal. You mean we want the country to be a perfect race of smart, english speaking rich people?

Um, no. You are talking about the forced redistribution of wealth otherwise known as Socialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism). Who pays for all of these people's health care here in fucking Fantasy Land? Who pays for their schools? Their roads? Their food? Their legal services? Where does the money comes from?

PS - I think a fence is a fucking stupid idea.

Fuck no man, I don't want to pay for any of their stuff. Well, I might consider supporting them (privately) to help families come to America, but I think welfare should be abolished, etc.


My problem is that coming into the country is very difficult to do legally for people who are poor. So I don't blame them to want to come in illegally. And they will keep coming regardless of whether we fence every border.

[donnie_darko]

fuck a fence, i saw we start a nice brush fire.

[oh_kee_pa]

As far as us turning into a 3rd world country, there are people whose families have been here for generations who are less refined than immigrants, both legal and illegal. You mean we want the country to be a perfect race of smart, english speaking rich people?





.

no, not at all. but, when we let everyone in resources per person goes down which brings us to a 3rd world country

[Bulldogcakes]

Somewhere between "let everybody in" and "I hate brown people" there is an intelligent policy to be had.

I liked the McCain and Bush "Path to citizenship" plans they had, but there were too many congressmen who never read the thing who were convinced the bill was something it wasn't, so it failed. I'm still waiting for a realistic counter proposal by the opponents of the bill.

[KC2OSO]

Fuck no man, I don't want to pay for any of their stuff. Well, I might consider supporting them (privately) to help families come to America, but I think welfare should be abolished, etc.


Well I'll give that a Ronnie style "Wow..." . I'm sure you mean well but let's say your adopted family decides to have a kid (which they will) - figure between $5K and $12K for a healthy vaginal delivery. Add $2K to $5K for C-Section if the 'lil fella is upside down or something. So, you're in for $7K to $17K. Not too bad. Ah, but if it's a preemie, or if there are other complications, your hospital bill can go into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Diapers, formula, food, clothes, rent, insurance, heat, light, ...taxes...to support the next wave of unsupported immigrants. Like I said, I'm sure you mean well and If you want to work and give your money away to another family, by all means, please do so. Please just don't force me to do the same thing with my money.

[epo]

i hate your post with all my life...

i dont believe in the "whoever wants to come in can come in" theory...
if they want to do it then do it hte right way and pay taxes. Get educated, learn the language.

If that is done then I am all for it. But, illegal aliens are the downfalls of civilization and are turning us into a 3rd world country

They do pay taxes right away and generally don't reap the benefits of those tax dollars. Damn those first generation Americans who are working hard, doing jobs you aren't willing to do and obeying the laws of this nation better than the rest of us do. And...and...and are generally ineligible for benefits.

So of course, fuck them! They aren't as worthy as me as my parents fucked in the United States! My family tree is perfectly clean!

This is such a fucking ridiculous argument, completely developed as a wedge issue. It's as important as "family values", it's as important as "gay marriage amendments"...its fucking ludicrous.

Don't we have more important things to worry about: The largest national debt & deficit in our nation's history. A quagmire in Iraq. An education system that has been gutted at a time of a shifting global economy demanding intellectual capital. An infrastructure that hasn't seen development since the 90's. And of course, a dependence on fossil fuels is that crippling our economic & political strength.

Of course, a stupid fucking fence to stop those who want to be part of our system is a goddamned problem.

[KC2OSO]

Fuck no man, I don't want to pay for any of their stuff. Well, I might consider supporting them (privately) to help families come to America, but I think welfare should be abolished, etc.


Well I'll give that a Ronnie style "Wow..." . I'm sure you mean well but let's say your adopted family decides to have a kid (which they will) - figure between $5K and $12K for a healthy vaginal delivery. Add $2K to $5K for C-Section if the 'lil fella is upside down or something. So, you're in for $7K to $17K. Not too bad. Ah, but if it's a preemie, or if there are other complications, your hospital bill can go into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Diapers, formula, food, clothes, rent, insurance, heat, light, ...taxes...to support the next wave of unsupported immigrants. Like I said, I'm sure you mean well and If you want to work and give your money away to another family, by all means, please do so. Please just don't force me to do the same thing with my money.

[Jujubees2]

First of all I love how the illegal immigration issue is focused on the southern border where people of a different skin color cross the border. How about Canada? Why don't we build a fence to keep those Canucks and their damn hockey sticks out?

I believe John Lennon summed it up best:

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

[keithy_19]

I know I didnt cover that in my post, but I don't disagree that immigrants shouldn't pay taxes. But we can't limit our country to people who are educated and speak english. I think darwinism will take it's course on the dumb ones. And if you don't want to learn english, that's your problem.


But it becomes my problem when I'm working and I can't communicate with a person because I don't speak spanish.

[SatCam]

But it becomes my problem when I'm working and I can't communicate with a person because I don't speak spanish.

ok... what about deaf people? maybe you should speak spanish


edit: this was not a great rebuttal, but if people need to communicate they will. It is out of necessity. But you can't force anyone to learn a language.

[cougarjake13]

First of all I love how the illegal immigration issue is focused on the southern border where people of a different skin color cross the border. How about Canada? Why don't we build a fence to keep those Canucks and their damn hockey sticks out?

[/I]

i believe its b/c there's not as many illegal canadiens sneaking into the country, stealing healthcare, not paying taxes, etc and sending the money back to canada

[epo]

i believe its b/c there's not as many illegal canadiens sneaking into the country, stealing healthcare, not paying taxes, etc and sending the money back to canada

Do you have any proof that illegals are hurting the economy or the tax system?

[badmonkey]

First of all I love how the illegal immigration issue is focused on the southern border where people of a different skin color cross the border. How about Canada? Why don't we build a fence to keep those Canucks and their damn hockey sticks out?

I believe John Lennon summed it up best:

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

The Canadians aren't crossing the border en masse to do the jobs that we don't wanna do. The social security argument is about the most fucked up thing i think i've ever heard as a reason we should let them in. Might as well be saying "It's ok to rob them cuz they're mexican." Nobody has any issue with legal immigration. The reason you don't bring the poor in is because they cannot take care of themselves. They come in and add to the drain on society. People who are educated are more likely to come in and help provide jobs and services and take care of themselves.

Bulldogcakes summed it up perfectly with "Somewhere between "let everybody in" and "I hate brown people" there is an intelligent policy to be had."

John Lennon summed it up like a fucking stoned hippy.

[Bulldogcakes]

I'd invite the folks with the "don't speak the language arguments" to look up photos of NYC in the early 1900's. Little Italy didn't have a single sign with a word of english on it. Neither did the German part of the Upper East side. Neither does Chinatown to this day. First generation immigrants rarely speak the language. Their children go to public schools, they learn English and become assmiliated. It happens the same way with every immigrant group for as long as the USA has been around.

And Kiethy, I'd like to take you for a stroll down Manhattan Ave in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. Most of the people there don't speak english either. Its all Polish over there. But strangely, no one seems to have a problem with them. Oh thats right. They're white, never mind.

[Freakshow]

Can we, at least, build a fence to keep the wackbaggers out?

[Bulldogcakes]

Can we, at least, build a fence to keep the wackbaggers out?

I'm thinking of building a fence straight across the Yankee thread.

You know, to keep the riff raff out.

[Ritalin]

no, not at all. but, when we let everyone in resources per person goes down which brings us to a 3rd world country

The resources in this country - wealth, really - aren't being spread thin at the bottom of the economic ladder. They're being skimmed at the very top.

The money you're looking for to make health care affordable, to properly fund schools, to give wounded vets the treatment they deserve, all that money has been whisked away over the last 8 or so years.

And somehow you've been convinced that the problems your so angry about are due to people crossing the border looking for work. If you're looking to place blame, you're looking in the wrong direction. Don't look down, look up.

[oh_kee_pa]

ok,
people are missing the point..
The original post stated to let everyone and anyone in... well, if we do that it would bring is into worse financial and political ruin. We would be overcrowded leading to more pollution, leading to higher gas prices, higher food prices, people would be making far less money then what they need to survive. Unemployment rate would go up.

This is a problem, any way you slice it. It is either no more or no less important then the war, global warming, the economic crisis.

And please, do not compare 1776, 1910 and 2008. Totally different worlds with totally different needs and values. It would be like comparing your needs as a 20something adult and a 4 year old.

[keithy_19]

ok... what about deaf people? maybe you should speak spanish


edit: this was not a great rebuttal, but if people need to communicate they will. It is out of necessity. But you can't force anyone to learn a language.

I know some sign language. And deaf people still are able to write in the english language.

And you're right that you can't force anyone. I just wish that they would attempt it.

[oh_kee_pa]

The resources in this country - wealth, really - aren't being spread thin at the bottom of the economic ladder. They're being skimmed at the very top.

The money you're looking for to make health care affordable, to properly fund schools, to give wounded vets the treatment they deserve, all that money has been whisked away over the last 8 or so years.

And somehow you've been convinced that the problems your so angry about are due to people crossing the border looking for work. If you're looking to place blame, you're looking in the wrong direction. Don't look down, look up.

Says who... Rolling Stone? CNN? please, give me your proof of this fact

[epo]

I know some sign language. And deaf people still are able to write in the english language.

And you're right that you can't force anyone. I just wish that they would attempt it.

This is a social cycle that is no different that any other era. What makes you a special, unique butterfly?

The first generation tries and has a difficult time learning the language. The second and third generation have no problem in the least bit.

[epo]

Says who... Rolling Stone? CNN? please, give me your proof of this fact

Where's your proof?

[epo]

ok,
people are missing the point..
The original post stated to let everyone and anyone in... well, if we do that it would bring is into worse financial and political ruin. We would be overcrowded leading to more pollution, leading to higher gas prices, higher food prices, people would be making far less money then what they need to survive. Unemployment rate would go up.
This is a problem, any way you slice it. It is either no more or no less important then the war, global warming, the economic crisis.

And please, do not compare 1776, 1910 and 2008. Totally different worlds with totally different needs and values. It would be like comparing your needs as a 20something adult and a 4 year old.

What makes you think this country in it's current state is so wonderful that all of the world's people will move here if the borders are opened?

[oh_kee_pa]

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_localcosts

there you go, your turn

[oh_kee_pa]

What makes you think this country in it's current state is so wonderful that all of the world's people will move here if the borders are opened?

as much as people like to complain about this country, when everything is stacked up, and all things are brought into the equation... it's still the number 1 country in the world.
I'm not saying its for everyone, but im willing to bet if you were to ask people from a 3rd world country "come to america or stay where you are" a good majority would come over here

[scottinnj]

SatCam is perhaps the dumbest person I've ever encountered in my life.
We should open up all the jails, too, right?

Even though I totally disagree with SatCam on this, he means well and is an idealist. Good things come from idealists. He's no dummy.

Even though I disagree with him.

[epo]

Immigrants go to jail too much:

Myth (http://borderbattles.ssrc.org/Rumbault_Ewing/)

More prone to violence & crime:

Myth (http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/soc/faculty/sampson/articles/2006_NYT_Immigrants_Crime.pdf)

Overuse of healthcare system:

Myth (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-immigrants27nov27,1,5092464.story)

Immigrant families don't learn English:

Myth (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-english30nov30,0,1163558.story)

Stop blaming brown people for your problems. It's really sad.

[epo]

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_localcosts

there you go, your turn

Umm, those are think tanks. Heavy think tanks at that.

[oh_kee_pa]

I never brought up jail and crime rates.
I never blamed them for "my" problems, just stated the fact that it is just as bad for our country as anything else...
I work with illegal aliens everyday (i work in construction) and if any of them get hurt my company is fucked by the insurance company, but, the law says that I am not allowed to fire any of them...

hmmmm, doesnt seem right to me

[oh_kee_pa]

This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion.

i dont see think tank anywhere in that paragraph

[epo]

I never brought up jail and crime rates.
I never blamed them for "my" problems, just stated the fact that it is just as bad for our country as anything else...
I work with illegal aliens everyday (i work in construction) and if any of them get hurt my company is fucked by the insurance company, but, the law says that I am not allowed to fire any of them...

hmmmm, doesnt seem right to me

The law says you can't fire them? I'd like to know why your company hired an illegal worker?

[oh_kee_pa]

The law says you can't fire them? I'd like to know why your company hired an illegal worker?

An employer is required to verify that each employee has a social security card. as long as they have that I have to hire them. At the end of the year I will get a letter stating which SSN are no good. The letter states
"you are to inform your employee his ssn is not valid. your employee has 12 months to rectify the situation. Note, it is against United States law for you to fire this employee based on the fact that his SSN is not valid."

its a no win situation my friend, and its a problem all contractors go through... in NY anway

[epo]

CNN Headline: Illegal workers: good for U.S. economy (http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/01/news/economy/immigration_economy/index.htm)

Honestly, if illegal immigration was a security or an economic issue....George W. Bush would have done something about it when he had both houses of Congress & the Supreme Court in his corner.

That should tell you everything you need to know.

[epo]

as much as people like to complain about this country, when everything is stacked up, and all things are brought into the equation... it's still the number 1 country in the world.
I'm not saying its for everyone, but im willing to bet if you were to ask people from a 3rd world country "come to america or stay where you are" a good majority would come over here

I'd like to see a real poll on that from all countries of the world, not just 3rd world. That's like asking somebody on the Kansas City Royals if they'd like to play for the NY Mets.

[Ritalin]

Epo always fights the good fight.

The first beer's on me, Epo.

[Yerdaddy]

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_localcosts

there you go, your turn

CIS is an offshoot of FAIR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation_for_American_Immigration_Reform)and both of them were created by the same nut, John Tanton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Tanton), who's been creating phony organizations for years to promote his lifeboat theory of an America that can only save it's trees if the country's population doesn't grow - ignoring the simple fact that America's wilderness places are exploited not by poor or middle class immigrants but by wealthy Americans looking to develop them for living and recreational places and companies looking to exploit resources for profit. The only way immigrants contribute to this problem is by expanding the US economy and increasing demand for these resources. By placing the entire blame on immigrants he's focussing on a politically weak source of perhaps the 2% growth of the economy, and not on the currently second largest market, (after the EU) in the world, the export of those resources to the countries immigrants are leaving, or the culture of greed that refuses to acknowledge the envirnonmental consequences of it's own consumption. In short, he's a nutter.

His books are endorsed by David Duke (http://www.davidduke.com/library/immigration/summaryaliens.html).

He's used his organizations to make racist proclaimations. He's created several phony organizations claiming to represent different mass grassroots movements that don't exist.

There are several major reasons why you should be distrustful of those "studies" based on the past history of who they come from.

[Yerdaddy]

An employer is required to verify that each employee has a social security card. as long as they have that I have to hire them. At the end of the year I will get a letter stating which SSN are no good. The letter states
"you are to inform your employee his ssn is not valid. your employee has 12 months to rectify the situation. Note, it is against United States law for you to fire this employee based on the fact that his SSN is not valid."

its a no win situation my friend, and its a problem all contractors go through... in NY anway

Furthermore, your own experiences should cause you to question the idea that immigrants are a drain on the economy.

You say undocumented immigrants are coming to you with invalid SS cards looking for work. You hire them. They work. You give them a paycheck, (I assume you aren't paying them cash under the table). From that paycheck the government has required your company to deduct SS, workers comp, federal, state and/or local taxes. Without a valid SS # they can't collect most of those benefits. Maybe they can get health care at a state hospital, which the taxes witheld from their paychecks paid for just like ours did. They may be able to get their kids into school, also which their taxes payed for. They probably can't file for tax refunds like we can for fear of being caught as an undocumented worker.

So you tell me how it is that your experience with working immigrants is evidence that they collect benefits from the American system but don't pay into it?

And a couple of your statements make no sense: like that you have to hire them if they have a SS card. Presumably your company wants to hire them for whatever reasons, but you simply can't NOT HIRE them if they have a card and you CAN'T fire them if the card proves to be invalid. So what you're saying in the middle of your argument to keep them out of the country is that they want to work and your company wants to hire them. Your point about the laws making them an insurance risk sounds plausible, but it's a demonstration of our system being fucked up in how we deal with undocumented workers and their employers once they're here. If that legal issue were cleared up, the problem would be better solved than making those workers unavailable to your employers in the first place. (I presume you will reply that undocumented workers should come here through the proper channels. I will then ask you if that's even possible with the quotas placed on Mexican immigrants and the bureacratic obstacles placed on all nationalities to obtain work visas. I would argue that those guys your company needs to do the work would not be available if those standards could be enforced and you'd be forced to raise your wages in order to attract the labor they need done and they don't want to do that or they'd be more dilligent about preventing undocumented workers from their employ.)

On the more general points of immigration using up "our" resources and draining our economy - let me ask you this basic economic question: other that productivity increases and expanding the labor force, what are the possible sources of GDP growth? Answer = none. That's the only way to increase output - get more out of your labor force or add more labor. Now, for generations America has had the most productive workers in the world, (yes, even more productive than the Japanese and the Germans). The prospects of getting more out of our current labor force is unrealistic. So our only potential source of GDP growth is to add workers. Now the current positive native population growth rate is about 1.1% and is expected to be cut in half in the next generation or so. (http://www.census.gov/population/www/pop-profile/natproj.html) Immigrants increase our population by about a third of that rate. Oddly enough our current annual GDP growth is about 1.4% - the equivalent of new workers - native and immigrant workers - entering the work force.

Compare that to China's consistent GDP growth rate of about 10% over the last decade. Also consider this: China's population is still mostly rural agrarian. That represents a natural source of workers that we don't have. As an example of what how big that potential source of GDP growth is the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace estimated a couple years ago that if you took EVERY American job and transferred it to China their economy would STILL have excess labor capacity.

Add to that that many of you anti-immigration people seem to be working on the silly assumption that the US economy is a zero-sum game - with a finite quantity of resources and wealth - and that more people only increases the competition for the same size pie. That's just anti-intellectual nonsense. The way economies work is: workers work, are paid, spend money on goods and services creating demand for work, creating more work, repeat the cycle. (That was a terrible description, but any adult should have seen the basic description of how economies work.) Point is - it doesn't matter how many people make up an economy - only that productive workforces generate wealth according to the size of the workforce = population. More workers = more work.

If America really wants to act on this "lifeboat" isolationist model of economics, or buy into some of the phony "studies" being passed off to justify xenophobic and often racist ideas, fine. I won't be living there anyway. But you can do real harm to America given the future global environment we will be living in. China and the EU would be more than happy to fill our role as global economic leaders should we decide to live in some past fantasy of a "pure" America-for-Americans that never existed anyway. But I suggest you all improve your sources and methods of logic before you actually get what you ask for.

[Snacks]

Thank (fake) God for Yerdaddy. Everything you talk about is perfectly put together. I seem to agree with everything you say. I think what it comes down to is fear. Middle class Americans buy into everything the rich Republicans say and believe that all these minorities are costing us jobs and money. They are changing our culture and making America a 3rd world country.

Please Its such Bullshit. My family came to America in the 1940's (from Italy). They didnt speak english (they did learn) and were treated like shit. It has been like this for years. One group of people come in and then the next follow. We need them just as much as they need America. No one is changing our culture they are just adding to it and making it better. Do you really think if the companies didnt need or want these workers they would be coming here? No, they do things we wont do because we were born here and it is beneath us!(Not really but many in this country acts like it) If you want to do dishes, mop floors or clean my clothes without complaining then I will pay you the same.

Watch the movie Bordertown to see what is like living in Mexico. American companies build factories in Mexico and pay their employees $5 so we can get plasma tv's cheaper and they can make a bigger profit. For all the slave labor we get around the world its worth the little we may have to pay to help these people out.

What I love most about conservatives and the right is they are mostly Religious yet they dont follow their religion and help the less fortunate. Its all about me, me, me! John Lenon might have been a hippy, but his words have more meaning now then ever. I forgot when having a heart, helping others and the word liberal became a bad things?

[A.J.]

I know this topic has seemed to somewhat fade into obscurity in recent months, but my local congressman just got back from the Mexican border and declared that more fencing needs to be put up. Part of his district encompasses Danbury, which has a pretty significant illegal immigrant problem.

He's never been to Meriden? That place has turned into Little San Juan.

IWe look at the giants who founded our great republic and their immigration policy was everybody is welcome!

There's an idea: bring back the Alien and Sedition Acts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_Sedition_Acts)!

Fences are a stupid idea. It's the Maginot Line solution to illegal immigration.

[oh_kee_pa]

You both bring up great points, and my knowledge of the subject won't allow me to argue any further...
congrats to you both...

at the same time, I continue to believe letting people flood into the country in the way that they are will not be good for us in the long term...
I am not blaming them for any problems that I may or may not have

[earthbrown]

Ok while I would like to kick all undocumented people out of the country, I understand it is not feasible.

My plan would go as follows...

1. Finish construction on the border fence.

2. Increase the protection on the border, using coast guard, and other armed troops on land.

3. DEPORT any and all criminal aliens. Anyone with felonies or misdemeanors.

K

[SatCam]

Im glad to see that many people agree with my views... well at least on not building a fence and/or relaxing immigration laws.

I don't think the "land" belongs to just us. It is a nation built on immigrants... my great grandparents were first generation Americans, which only happened within the past century. If they were denied because they were poor, or not white, I wouldnt be posting on this forum right now

[WRESTLINGFAN]

As I posted in an earlier thread about immigration, It is unfair to people wanting to come here legally. Case in point my girlfriend is from Peru and she took all the necessary steps to come here legally and she is even more offended by people cutting the line. This country welcomes immigration, but at the same time why should an all out free for all be encouraged where if you make it here without getting caught you can stay? I totally agree there needs to be some middle ground

[Knowledged_one]

Ok while I would like to kick all undocumented people out of the country, I understand it is not feasible.

My plan would go as follows...

1. Finish construction on the border fence.

2. Increase the protection on the border, using coast guard, and other armed troops on land.

3. DEPORT any and all criminal aliens. Anyone with felonies or misdemeanors.

K

Shit i go one step more, use military sharpshooters and start shooting these MS-13 fuckers in the street, illegal Mexican gangs are the largest rising threat to this country

And i know they are using or plan on using a VTUAV called the Firescout (unmanned helicopter) to partol the border with its infared radar (i used to work on this)

[TheMojoPin]

illegal Mexican gangs are the largest rising threat to this country

As opposed to legal Mexican gangs?

But seriously, how is this even close to being the "largest rising threat" to the entire country? As opposed to what? What's 2nd on this "rising threat list?" Is it the same country where violent crime has been steadily declining for the better part of a decade now?

Gangland is a very entertaining show, but it and its ilk are so drenched in "OMG, THE ENTIRE COUNTRY NEEDS TO BE SCARED!!!!" rhetoric it's ridiculous. They're such suckers for juked stats. Come on, you watch The Wire...these numbers like in the tens or even hundreds of thousands of members nationwide for the so-called "supergangs" are the stinkiest of horseshit.

[TheMojoPin]

I wonder how quickly it would take for underground industries to pop up that get people up to Canada by boat so they can just walk across the largest unprotected border in the world into the US. Y'know, because we only need to build that one fence for "THE border." Then everything is fixed. The legal immigration system isn't hopelessly inadequate...nope, we only need the fence.

[Knowledged_one]

I meant rising threat as MS-13 and such used to be localized to the south west but is now moved to many many cities like Boston, like Indianapolis, like Columbus Ohio, Reston VA, etc etc.

And the previous rising threat i could think of was Meth amphetamines which was bad in the midwest (im sure you have seen the commercials in Chicago as they played in Indy).

And a lot of the bigger gangs have not spread like MS-13 has in this country

[TheMojoPin]

I meant rising threat as MS-13 and such used to be localized to the south west but is now moved to many many cities like Boston, like Indianapolis, like Columbus Ohio, Reston VA, etc etc.

And the previous rising threat i could think of was Meth amphetamines which was bad in the midwest (im sure you have seen the commercials in Chicago as they played in Indy).

And a lot of the bigger gangs have not spread like MS-13 has in this country

This country has been dealing with various "nationwide" gangs for several decades now. They each rise up and eventually splinter up. By and large, these gangs are only really threats to people connected to their social circles and lifestyles. That is, of course, not dismissing them as harmless, but it's a HUGE false point to present it like these gangs are a everyday danger to the vast majority of Americans. It's completely heartless, but the blut reality is that these gangs are only a real sustained threat to their own kind (in all senses of the word) than the general population. They eat their own.

On top of that, the "mafia"-style syndicates that have existed for almost a century now are far more of a threat to a much wider spread of the population, and have much more effect on the country politically and especially economically. The "supergangs" are complete pikers as national "threats" compared to, say, the Russian or Chinese mobs.

And the "rising threat" thing just seems so random and subjective. Are you only talking about criminal activity? Because otherwise I'm more worried about something like heart disease or drunk driving as a "threat" than gang actvity.

[TheMojoPin]

And I'm not posting this stuff like I think an illegal getting busted for something should just walk away. If you're here illegally and you're convicted of a crime, boom, you should be gone. I just think the talk of building a fence and deporting all criminl illegals like that's all that needs to be done to "fix" the issue of illegals and much of the crime in this counry is largely false and insanely shortsighted.

[jafter]

Here are some numbers for you to see why we need to stop ILLEGAL immigration. Why do you want to allow people to disobey our laws. They are there for a reason. Yes this country has been built on immigration but most of the immigrants that came into the country from Europe would speak their language at home but would try to assimilate to people they come into contact with in public.

1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year.
http://tinyurl.com/zob77

2. $2.2 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens.
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

3. $2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens.
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

4. $12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a word of English!
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.0.html

5. $17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

6. $3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

7. 30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

8. $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare & social services by the American taxpayers.
http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.ht

9. $200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.htm

10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.htm

11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from
Terrorist Countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroine and marijuana, crossed into the U. S from the Southern border. Homeland Security
Report: http://tinyurl.com/t9sht

12. The National Policy Institute, "estimated that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period."
http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf

13 In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin.
http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm

14. "The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States ".
http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml

The total cost is a whopping $ 338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR

[TheMojoPin]

but most of the immigrants that came into the country from Europe would speak their language at home but would try to assimilate to people they come into contact with in public.

False. The majority of first generation immigrants from the eras you're talking about moved into communities where their native tongue was used all the time, something that still is widespread to this day. It's typically later generations rased in America that actually assimilate as you're talking about.

The total cost is a whopping $ 338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off. A bunch of those numbers you listed overlap several times over. The prison numbers are especially skewed. The 30% total number you put out there is actually just above 20%. Secondly, that's tossed out as if all of those illegals are there for commiting crimes besides being illegal immigrants. It's also used as if they're all serving sustained, medium or longterm sentences. If a kind of work visa or amnesty program is worked out that benefits all involved (obviously not for those convicted of crimes beyond being here illegally), those numbers plunge way down. On top of that, the total 21% stat appies to "criminal aliens," meaning immigrants, here legally and illegally, who are in prison.

And what's a "terrorist country?" Does that mean we have to throw out all of the Koreans living here? Legal or not, we gotta watch out for those "terrorist countries."

And it's ironic that you view education of their kids as a bad thing. If they're here to stay (which they likely are if their kids are going to school), you DON'T want their kids assimilating?

Your inaccurate total figure also does not take into account the money that illegals pump into the economy, a lot of it through, shocker, taxes.

[jafter]

Mojo,

Living in Northern Va there are over 2000 members of MS 13 in Northern VA. You don't think that is a problem. Wake up man. They are domestic terrorists. If we do not put a serious stop to the growth of that group we will be in a world of hurt.

MS-13 operates in at least 42 states and the District of Columbia and has about 6,000-10,000 members nationwide. Currently, the threat is highest in the western and northeastern parts of the country, which coincides with elevated Salvadoran immigrant populations in those areas. In the southeast and central regions, the current threat is moderate to low, but recently, we've seen an influx of MS-13 members into the southeast, causing an increase in violent crimes there.

[Snacks]

False. The majority of first generation immigrants from the eras you're talking about moved into communities where their native tongue was used all the time, something that still is widespread to this day. It's typically later generations rased in America that actually assimilate as you're talking about.



Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off. A bunch of those numbers you listed overlap several times over.

they also lower costs of goods because they are paid little it keeps the costs of goods affordable. For all the bad that might come from "illegals" I think there is much more good they do for the country.

[TheMojoPin]

Mojo,

Living in Northern Va there are over 2000 members of MS 13 in Northern VA. You don't think that is a problem. Wake up man. They are domestic terrorists. If we do not put a serious stop to the growth of that group we will be in a world of hurt.

MS-13 operates in at least 42 states and the District of Columbia and has about 6,000-10,000 members nationwide. Currently, the threat is highest in the western and northeastern parts of the country, which coincides with elevated Salvadoran immigrant populations in those areas. In the southeast and central regions, the current threat is moderate to low, but recently, we've seen an influx of MS-13 members into the southeast, causing an increase in violent crimes there.

I didn't say it wasn't a problem. What I said is that it's not this insane national threat to any and all citizens that some people want to make it out to be. The "supergang" stats are incredibly inaccurate, since a big chunk of it is based on police reporting that arrests are of gang members that they are assume are parts of certain gangs but aren't (like some wannabe has an MS-13 tattoo, thusly he MUST be in the gang, etc.) or diaffiliated arrests that claim assosciation but aren't. Yes, MS-13 is a large gang with international "branches," but it's not the insidious unified criminal organization that threatens us all every day that it's made out to be. It's little different from the countless domestic gangs this country is plagued with, and it's not nearly as bad as the truly major international syndicates that are made up of people largely here legally.

Crime is crime. It should be fought. Like I said, if an illegal is convicted of a crime, get 'em out of here. But acting like gangs like MS-13 are somehow "worse" than the gangs and criminal orgaizations we have here an have had here for almost a century now is simply incorrect.

[MikeB]

My biggest problem is this picture:
http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/061005/061005_WPFence_hmed_7p.hlarge.jpg
What are we suppose to believe these little kids are running to jump the boarder and destroy our country by not paying taxes, learning our language, nor obeying our laws.


They are playing by a fence.

[high fly]

Originally Posted by jafter
but most of the immigrants that came into the country from Europe would speak their language at home but would try to assimilate to people they come into contact with in public.


False. The majority of first generation immigrants from the eras you're talking about moved into communities where their native tongue was used all the time, something that still is widespread to this day. It's typically later generations rased in America that actually assimilate as you're talking about.



I recommend George Crile's Charlie Wilson's War which will shoot this tired right-wing canard echoed by jafter right down.
In the early part of the book, Gust Avrakatos is described as well as his life before the CIA.
Avrakatos' family came from Greece and wound up in the small, tough mining town of Aliquippa, Pennsylvania. Avrakatos' father invented a soft drink and distributed it in the region, and Gust Avrakatos describes the way he learned to speak parts of a number of foreign languages from people from several different European countries which settled in that part of the state; when Avrakatos delivered the soft drink and collected money from various businesses run by Greeks, Rumanians and others.

It is shameful that more people do not have a grasp of immigration in this country, even though it has played such a major role in developing our nation.
They respond like puppets to emotional right-wing hate that is contrary to the very principles this nation was founded upon.


If they really understood markets like they let on, they would see that immigration is simply the market speaking to them and they are too damned dunderheaded to listen....

[Bulldogcakes]

A Jafter post? Is that even allowed?


If Carter posts in this thread, I believe its a sign of the apocolypse.

[Yerdaddy]

Here are some numbers for you to see why we need to stop ILLEGAL immigration. Why do you want to allow people to disobey our laws. They are there for a reason. Yes this country has been built on immigration but most of the immigrants that came into the country from Europe would speak their language at home but would try to assimilate to people they come into contact with in public.

1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year.
http://tinyurl.com/zob77

2. $2.2 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens.
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

3. $2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens.
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

4. $12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a word of English!
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.0.html

5. $17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

6. $3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

7. 30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

8. $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare & social services by the American taxpayers.
http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.ht

9. $200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.htm

10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.htm

11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from
Terrorist Countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroine and marijuana, crossed into the U. S from the Southern border. Homeland Security
Report: http://tinyurl.com/t9sht

12. The National Policy Institute, "estimated that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period."
http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf

13 In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin.
http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm

14. "The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States ".
http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml

The total cost is a whopping $ 338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR

The first 11 links are from a total of 2 sources: 1) the FAIR/CIS orgs founded by a nutter and with a history of lying, and which I linked to the discrediting links on the previous page of this thread, and 2) Lou Dobbs, who is a serial liar on the topic of immigration.

Truth, Fiction and Lou Dobbs (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/30/business/30leonhardt.html?ei=5090&en=29f50592f7548c44&ex=1338177600&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=all)

On two shows, two years apart, in which Dobbs claimed: “The invasion of illegal aliens is threatening the health of many Americans”, his correspondent cited an “expert” in claiming that “there were about 900 cases of leprosy for 40 years. There have been 7,000 in the past three years.”

IMMIGRANTS ARE BRINGING IN PLAGUES OF BIBLICAL DISEASES!

Dobbs was called on this misstatement on “60 Minutes” and he defended it. The Southern Poverty Law Center called him on the misinformation on his show and he insulted them.

The NYT checked the statement with the government’s top official on leprosy who said there were a total of 7,000 cases of leprosy in America – over the past 30 years – not 3!

He’s a liar.

At #7 you’ve got another of Dobb’s big crazy lies debunked in the piece I linked above: “30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.” That’s misleading claptrap. He also claims the percentage is increasing - more scarier that way - when it's actually decreasing - down to 20% in 2005 from 27% in 2000 (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/30/business/30leonside.html?ref=business). But more importantly, the federal prison system, which houses about 10% of the total prison population in America, is primarily responsible for housing undocumented immigrants facing deportation – meaning a large proportion of them have committed no other crime other than coming here illegally. So the Federal Prison system would naturally have a higher percentage of undocumented immigrants. However, according to Justice Department statistics, only about 6% of the overall prison population in America are noncitizens, (both documented and undocumented). Compared to the percentage of the total population, about 7%, IMMIGRANTS ACTUALLY COMMITT LESS CRIMES THAN NON-IMMIGRANTS! (Real scholars who study immigration and immigrants in America have been reporting this fact for decades - and I'll post some of their work at the end of this post - but they always tend to get drowned out by the nativist demagogues. I guess we only hear what we want to hear in this country.)

To put forward a statistic like the Federal percentage of immigrants, while ignoring the overall lower percentage of total immigrant prisoners, can only be interpreted as an attempt to mislead the American public into thinking that immigrants represent an increased crime threat, when the opposite is actually true. Dobbs has a history of these lies and misleading facts, (as well as a number of white supremacists and people linked to them as guests posing as “experts” (http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=33815)), which collectively should make any rational person conclude that he is nothing but a professional serial liar, and not trust him or watch his show. That’s just common sense.

And that last lying whore! A million sex crimes committed by illegal immigrants in America?! Give me a fucking break! How can anyone not smell a racist when people make claims like this?

Here’s what she did: she took the percentage of sex offenders among illegal immigrants apprehended by US authorities = 2%. Then she extrapolated that percentage to the entire population of illegal immigrants living in the US – estimated at 12 million – and baselessly accused 240,000 of them of being sex offenders! It’s the same as saying the percentage of American sex offenders in jail is the same percentage of sex offenders on the street. Who would accept that statement? But we’ll accept the same statement made about immigrants! Bullshit! She’s a racist cunt to be putting out lies like that. And yet, if you Google her name, guess what? Her “study” is getting cited by these right-wing anti-immigrant organizations and television and radio shows and even reports put together by members of Congress all the time. It’s the very definition of racism, and it’s a national disgrace.

If you’re really worried about this Salvadoran MS-13 gang, Jafter, then your issue is gangs – not immigrants. You’re too smart and too decent to be buying into this kind of nativist propaganda.

Here are some good sources of information on immigrants and crime:

Q: Does illegal immigration relate to higher crime incidence? (http://www.immigrationprocon.org/questions/illegalimmigrationcrime.html)

(Note that most of the "PRO" arguments are by the same crackpots above.)

William F. McDonald, Professor of Sociology and Anthropology and Co-Director of the Institute of Criminal Law and Procedure at Georgetown University Law Center, in a 07/12/06 testimony in front of the U.S. Senate Committee on the Judiciary hearing entitled "Examining the Need for Comprehensive Immigration Reform, Part II," stated:

"[...] The criminality of the first generation of immigrants (those who migrated as opposed to their children) is less than that of the native-born. There have been many studies in the United States and abroad that have addressed the question of the criminality of immigrants

[...] there is little reason to believe that the findings would be substantially different for illegal immigrants assuming data were available that would allow us to make the necessary statistical controls for age, sex, economic status and immigrant status. Public fears about immigrant criminality have usually not been born out by research."
07/12/06, William F. McDonald (http://www.immigrationprocon.org/biosind/williammcdonald.html)

Seth Abramson, Staff Attorney at the New Hampshire Public Defender, in a 04/10/06 The Suburban Ecstasies blog article entitled "Newsflash: Illegal Immigrants Are Not Criminals Merely By Virtue of Their Presence in This Country," wrote:

"If I had to estimate from my own experiences with more than a thousand clients in New Hampshire, I'd guess that illegal immigrants commit all other offenses, particularly criminal offenses, at a rate lower than white citizens do, at least in New Hampshire; moreover, they are marginally more likely than my white clients to be employed "
04/10/06, Seth Abramson (http://www.immigrationprocon.org/biosind/sethabramson.html)

Ruben G. Rumbaut, Professor of Sociology at the University of California, Irvine, in a Spring 2007 Immigration Policy Center report entitled "The Myth of Immigrant Criminality and the Paradox of Assimilation: Incarceration Rates among Native and Foreign-Born Men," concluded that:

"Because many immigrants to the United States, especially Mexicans and Central Americans, are young men who arrive with very low levels of formal education, popular stereotypes tend to associate them with higher rates of crime and incarceration. The fact that many of these immigrants enter the country through unauthorized channels or overstay their visas often is framed as an assault against the 'rule of law,' thereby reinforcing the impression that immigration and criminality are linked. This association has flourished in a post-9/11 climate of fear and ignorance where terrorism and undocumented immigration often are mentioned in the same breath.

However, data from the census and other sources show that for every ethnic group without exception, incarceration rates among young men are lowest for immigrants, even those who are the least educated. This holds true especially for the Mexicans, Salvadorans, and Guatemalans who make up the bulk of the undocumented population. The problem of crime in the United States is not 'caused' or even aggravated by immigrants, regardless of their legal status. But the misperception that the opposite is true persists among policymakers, the media, and the general public, thereby undermining the development of reasoned public responses to both crime and immigration."
Spring 2007, Ruben G. Rumbaut , Walter A. Ewing

"The Myth of Immigrant Criminality and the Paradox of Assimilation: Incarceration Rates among Native and Foreign-Born Men" (http://www.immigrationprocon.org/documents/immidoc51.pdf) (PDF) 897 KB

John Hagan, Professor of Sociology and Law at Northwestern University, and Alberto Palloni, Professor of Sociology at the University of Wisconsin, in a November 1999 Social Problems essay entitled "Sociological Criminology and the Mythology of Hispanic Immigration and Crime," concluded that:

"Our sociological knowledge of crime is fragmented and ineffective in challenging and correcting mistaken public perceptions, for example, linking immigration and crime. These misperceptions are perpetuated by government reports of growing numbers of Hispanic immigrants in U.S. prisons...

[I]t is estimated that the involvement of Hispanic immigrants in crime is less than that of citizens. These results cast doubt on the hypothesis that immigration causes crime and make more transparent the immigration and criminal justice policies that inflate the rate of Hispanic incarceration."
November 1999, John Hagan , Alberto Palloni

More PRO/CON discussion topics with reputable sources. (http://www.immigrationprocon.org/archives.html)

Why are immigrants' incarceration rates so low evidence on selective immigration, deterrence, and deportation (http://www.chicagofed.org/economic_research_and_data/wp_abstract.cfm?pubsID=749) (A study by the notorious America-haters the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago)

Please - no more bullshit links claiming immigrants are going on raping, killing or any other crime sprees in America.

[Jujubees2]

Yerdaddy, thanks for another insightful and fact-filled post.

The illegal immigration issue is the new gay marriage. The right wing can't boast about the success of the war in Iraq or the economy so they have to dream up something to get their base excited. It's just too bad that so many Americans are so ready to listen to them.

[DiabloSammich]

Speaking of gay marriage, I am formally proposing to Yerdaddy.

It gives me a warm fuzzy feeling when someone takes my clouded, generic feeling of "That doesn't seem right to me.." and justifies with a visual assault of information.

Thank you, sir.

[high fly]

After reading Yerdaddy's latest, a vivid image of the foot at the end of the Monty Python tv show comes to mind.
I am copying it and saving it because I know it will come in mighty handy in the future.




And Mojo, they don't have to sail from Mexico to Canada, they can put people ashore in thousands of places.

So the border fence would have to go around all of our coastlines, too.

[Ritalin]

yeah, we can put a wall around the entire country, then we can cover if with a pretty pretty wallpaper. Wallpaper hung by white people, mind you.

[high fly]

I was thinking putting it under a dome, but then them wily immigrants will discover shovels.

[TheMojoPin]

high fly, please stop directly calling out and antagonizing people like you've been tending to do. It's only going to instigate arguments/flame wars as opposed to debate.

[high fly]

Ok.
Thanks.
I just deleted.

[Stankfoot]

Mojo,

Living in Northern Va there are over 2000 members of MS 13 in Northern VA. You don't think that is a problem. Wake up man. They are domestic terrorists. If we do not put a serious stop to the growth of that group we will be in a world of hurt.


The Dead Rabbits could kick MS 13's ass!

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/stankfoot/deadrabbits.jpg

[TheMojoPin]

Thank you. As you can see, it's often easy to counter these points without calling people out.

[high fly]

Speaking of gay marriage, I am formally proposing to Yerdaddy.


Me too.
Let's turn into Mormons or Muslims or something.

Just the three of us..............

[scottinnj]

yeah, we can put a wall around the entire country, then we can cover if with a pretty pretty wallpaper. Wallpaper hung by white people, mind you.

Nooooo, we white people pick the wallpaper from samples at the wallpaper store. We hire people to hang it, and when I say hire, I mean, pick up 6 or 7 at the Home Depot, give them 50 bucks (they can split it any way they want) and a McDonalds lunch to do the job. And they live in the part of town where my cellphone doesn't work, know what I mean?

[Yerdaddy]

All I'm doing is treading water against a people determined to shoot themselves in the foot. America is probably going to enact more draconian immigration measures over the next decade or more which will keep out the people we need to keep our economy strong and punish people who are contributing to America's greatness by restricting their access to education and health care.

And while we are moving back into the 19th century China and the EU are taking away our sole superpower status. (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/magazine/27world-t.html?_r=1&oref=slogin)

If Americans want to follow Russia from superpower to second rate has-been status, that's one thing. But the fact is that as China is growing in economic and political power it will either seek to change the global order to suit its desires or it will adopt to the one we've created over the last half-century. It just so happens that the current global system is more stablizing and moral than any international order that came before it. (http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20080101faessay87102/g-john-ikenberry/the-rise-of-china-and-the-future-of-the-west.html?mode=print) It should be obvious to anyone that the international system of economic integration, military cooperation and rule-based institutions is better than anything the Chinese would seek to replace it with. But if we don't seek to strengthen and protect that system, or if we can't stay strong (other than militarily, which, with the current number of nuclear weapons makes less important than economic and political powers) long enough to help Europe sustain and strengthen that international system then China will seek to subvert it - and will probably succeed.

This is why every issue is an international issue today. We simply need immigrants to postpone the date when China's economy is, like the EU's, bigger than ours. We can't afford to punish people for wanting to join our team in the international arena. We can't afford cynical wars that undermine our soft power - political power - and make whole populations want their governments to restrain us rather than cooperate with us. We can't afford to undermine the international institutions that WE created after WWII and have been hugely successful in resolving disputes and crises peacefully for 60 years, in an arrogant delusion that being the biggest bully on the block will protect us forever. (That's what Russia thought would win them the Cold War and it's what cost them exactly that.) We can't afford to be the dumbest people on the subject of geography in the developed world anymore. We can't afford to ignore the third world country-within-a-country we sustain at a greater expense than if we brought our underclass into the economy by simply giving a shit about them. We can't afford to entertain economic fantasies like "a rising tide floats all boats" when we've demonstrated twice now that such sloganeering has nothing to do with the real world of economics.

The only thing that will sustain America's greatness, and the great things we've done for the world in our time as a leader, is our brains. We are no longer the biggest, and being the baddest doesn't mean shit anymore. We have to trust in the principles of democracy and enlightened self-interest we brought to the world or learn to live by someone else's rules. And the key word there - and the one I'm most worred about by the state of political discussion in America - is "enlightened". We seem to be going in the opposite direction, when all the evidence says that, right here, right now, we either use it or we will lose it.

Pissing and moaning about immigrants, politicians, corporations, gay marriage, Muslims, Britteny fucking Spears, piddly few terrorists that kill fewer people in the world than mosquitos do, or the neverending liberal/conservative war for temporary bragging rights - does nothing but keep us asleep while the world passes us by. Americans have brains and democracy - and a big head start in creating the future of the world. If we're not willing to use them both then we deserve the world we are forced to live in. It's time to fucking grow up!

[high fly]

I look at this as a classic Harry Dent/Lee Atwater/Karl Rove "wedge issue" designed to have an emotional appeal to base instincts like xenophobia.
They don't really care about the immigrants because they know besides putting on their shows of fake indignation, there isn't a lot they can do, other than waste billions on it.

In my view, the whole thing is designed to do two things:

1) Energize the base of the shattered GOP

2) Distract from the debacle in Iraq



The fact is, with the future demographic bulge of retiring baby-boomers, what we need is a wave of immigrants to pay for their Social Security.

Let's be for real: despite the Republican goal going back to the 60s, they are not going to get rid of Social Security nor are they going to cut it, for to do so would destroy their party.
Of course, getting Republicans to pay for ANYTHING has always been a problem. They set records for spendng, but never do the responsible thing and come up with the money to pay for it.

[scottinnj]

All I'm doing is treading water against a people determined to shoot themselves in the foot. America is probably going to enact more draconian immigration measures over the next decade or more which will keep out the people we need to keep our economy strong and punish people who are contributing to America's greatness by restricting their access to education and health care.

And while we are moving back into the 19th century China and the EU are taking away our sole superpower status. (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/magazine/27world-t.html?_r=1&oref=slogin)

If Americans want to follow Russia from superpower to second rate has-been status, that's one thing. But the fact is that as China is growing in economic and political power it will either seek to change the global order to suit its desires or it will adopt to the one we've created over the last half-century. It just so happens that the current global system is more stablizing and moral than any international order that came before it. (http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20080101faessay87102/g-john-ikenberry/the-rise-of-china-and-the-future-of-the-west.html?mode=print) It should be obvious to anyone that the international system of economic integration, military cooperation and rule-based institutions is better than anything the Chinese would seek to replace it with. But if we don't seek to strengthen and protect that system, or if we can't stay strong (other than militarily, which, with the current number of nuclear weapons makes less important than economic and political powers) long enough to help Europe sustain and strengthen that international system then China will seek to subvert it - and will probably succeed.

This is why every issue is an international issue today. We simply need immigrants to postpone the date when China's economy is, like the EU's, bigger than ours. We can't afford to punish people for wanting to join our team in the international arena. We can't afford cynical wars that undermine our soft power - political power - and make whole populations want their governments to restrain us rather than cooperate with us. We can't afford to undermine the international institutions that WE created after WWII and have been hugely successful in resolving disputes and crises peacefully for 60 years, in an arrogant delusion that being the biggest bully on the block will protect us forever. (That's what Russia thought would win them the Cold War and it's what cost them exactly that.) We can't afford to be the dumbest people on the subject of geography in the developed world anymore. We can't afford to ignore the third world country-within-a-country we sustain at a greater expense than if we brought our underclass into the economy by simply giving a shit about them. We can't afford to entertain economic fantasies like "a rising tide floats all boats" when we've demonstrated twice now that such sloganeering has nothing to do with the real world of economics.

The only thing that will sustain America's greatness, and the great things we've done for the world in our time as a leader, is our brains. We are no longer the biggest, and being the baddest doesn't mean shit anymore. We have to trust in the principles of democracy and enlightened self-interest we brought to the world or learn to live by someone else's rules. And the key word there - and the one I'm most worred about by the state of political discussion in America - is "enlightened". We seem to be going in the opposite direction, when all the evidence says that, right here, right now, we either use it or we will lose it.

Pissing and moaning about immigrants, politicians, corporations, gay marriage, Muslims, Britteny fucking Spears, piddly few terrorists that kill fewer people in the world than mosquitos do, or the neverending liberal/conservative war for temporary bragging rights - does nothing but keep us asleep while the world passes us by. Americans have brains and democracy - and a big head start in creating the future of the world. If we're not willing to use them both then we deserve the world we are forced to live in. It's time to fucking grow up!

What he said. That means I agree.






Quite frankly, everyone who is against the illegals only need to do one thing. Go after the companies hiring them. Once you dry up the market of companies hiring these guys, you won't need a fence at all. Nobody will come here if there is no opportunity. Why send your kids to a good school if you can't feed them? Why live in an area you can't afford? The illegals are here because we let them in and hired them.

Whatever the new immigration policy is, the immigrants wil follow it. Because they want to be here, because of the opportunity this country offers to them, and more so for their kids.

My family came here from Europe because of opportunity, and did shit jobs until the kids got older and were able to do better. Same thing for every single one of you. How dare we deny that to the people, lets face it, mainly SOUTH of us (because apparantly the Canadians who look like us aren't the problem) who have seen our success and want to copy it?

Border security should be for keeping criminals and terrorists and their WMDs out. Immigration policy is for allowing and regulating people in and out of the country who will do the work that keeps a large part of our economy above water. Apples and Oranges.

If you want to do a better job keeping bad guys out of the country, I'm right there with you.

But if you just use "immigration policy" as a code word to mean "keep the Mexicans out" I have to walk away from you. If you are scared of Jose who comes here to cut your grass, or Maria who comes here to change the sheets in your hotel room after your one night stand, I have to say, they are not the problem. They should be abe to come out of hiding, get proper ID and work without fear.
If they can't, get your kids ready to quit their jobs at the local movie theater tearing tickets and pouring sodas, and tell them to hit the lettuce fields for 12 hours a day and only make 60 bucks for the effort.

[jafter]

My family came here from Europe because of opportunity, and did shit jobs until the kids got older and were able to do better. Same thing for every single one of you. How dare we deny that to the people, lets face it, mainly SOUTH of us (because apparantly the Canadians who look like us aren't the problem) who have seen our success and want to copy it?



Did you family come here "Legally" and did you assimilate or did you disregard our laws and do what ever you wanted to do.

As mentioned before we should punish the businesses that are hiring ILLEGALS. Take their business licenses. The only people who are winning in this issue are business men who are paying these people low wages and the politicians who are trying to cowtow to a new voting base. The people getting hurt are all of us who have to pay for the price for illegal immigration. We are paying the taxes for the medical expenses, infrastructure expenses, and all of the services that the illegals use. Our citizens are being put out of work because they are being under cut by illegals. Now they have to be put on federal assistance.

I am all for LEGAL immigration with limits from across this world. We can not absorb 12 -20 million people who are not in this country legally.

We need to stop letting 20 people live in one home go back to x amount of people per bedrooms and not by square footage like they have changed in Fairfax county. Make it less appealing to come here ILLEGALLY and let them come using the proper channels and it will be a better country. Our government is selling us out for votes.

[TheMojoPin]

I am all for LEGAL immigration with limits from across this world. We can not absorb 12 -20 million people who are not in this country legally.

Why not? We've been doing it for decades. It would be a problem if it was an all-take relationship, but it's not.

It's not like I think our extremely flawed immigration system should keep trucking along, but to me the evidence shows that the illegals here now are not some kind of immediate and crippling threat/danger/problem that requires some drastic massive roundup program which would take years and cost much, much, MUCH more than the illegals do, since the roundup would pump nothing back into our economy.

[scottinnj]

I look at this as a classic Harry Dent/Lee Atwater/Karl Rove "wedge issue" designed to have an emotional appeal to base instincts like xenophobia.
They don't really care about the immigrants because they know besides putting on their shows of fake indignation, there isn't a lot they can do, other than waste billions on it.

In my view, the whole thing is designed to do two things:

1) Energize the base of the shattered GOP

2) Distract from the debacle in Iraq



The fact is, with the future demographic bulge of retiring baby-boomers, what we need is a wave of immigrants to pay for their Social Security.

Let's be for real: despite the Republican goal going back to the 60s, they are not going to get rid of Social Security nor are they going to cut it, for to do so would destroy their party.
Of course, getting Republicans to pay for ANYTHING has always been a problem. They set records for spendng, but never do the responsible thing and come up with the money to pay for it.



While you are right in chastising the Republicans for this, you can't leave out the Democrats who want this as an issue to raise money, expand government programs and get votes.

The immigration problem is a bipartisan debacle.

[high fly]

I think it is a phony issue.

I don't believe there is an immigration "problem."

If right-wingers would just listen to their economic icons like that one really smart black fella G. Gordon Liddy used to have on all the time, they wpuld realize that immigration is just the market at work and when governments interfere with the natural activity in the market, problems arise.

We have plenty of jobs available despite the Latin hordes rampaging across our borders and we have plenty of room for them, too.

I have a lot of admiration for someone who would leave the town he grew up in, leave his family, church, friends and social organizations and take the risks of getting across the border and making it in America.
We need people who are that motivated to achieve their goals.

America got along just fine without immigration laws for about 100 years (except those having to do with slavery).

We need to take the conservative line and get back to the traditions of our forefathers which built this great nation.