MLB Offseason Discussion...HOT STOVE, SSSSSSSSS!!!

[Snoogans]

Clarkstown South, technically.

Keith Bulluck went to North years before.

fuck you all and your NFL HSers. Mahwah had 2, awful Frank Chamberlain and BOB KRATCH MOAFUCKA

[epo]

THEY ARE FUCKING JOKES, you Sensitive child!

You have any fucking idea how many fucking Albanian jokes i get here?

AND NOT ONCE HAVE I SAID ANYTHING!

Because i am a fucking adult you know when people joke a around.

Grow the fuck out of your inferiority complex for the love of creation.

Shut up. Yankees fans drive me fucking nuts and here is why: You think your franchise can buy anything because you are special. Its seen as arrogant and asinine in the rest of the country.

Here's the irony: Boston spends alot of money too and nobody begrudges them shit. They develop players, find role players and add key pieces to win. The Yankees spend, spend, spend...that's it.

When you lose, we laugh. Nothing was more funny last year than watching a $200 million + payroll not make the playoffs.

I hope you sign Burnett and Lowe and Pettite and Sabathia and Texiera and Burrell and Ibanez. It seems like that's the Yankee way.

[NYHCmikeX]

I hope you sign Burnett and Lowe and Pettite and Sabathia and Texiera and Burrell and Ibanez. It seems like that's the Yankee way.

You sound like a disgruntled ex-boyfriend.

"I hope you're happy with him. He'll never love you like I do."

Go cry in your Miller High life.

[brettmojo]

The Yankees spend, spend, spend...that's it.
Last year actually was the result of a lack of spending, particularly in the pitching department. So umm, yeah. Can't really begrudge them for loading up on pitching this year. And the teamed sucked, but there was no spend spend spend last season.

[epo]

DAMN YOU SNOOGANS! Why did you tell Kevin! WHY! WHY!

[Snoogans]

You sound like a disgruntled ex-boyfriend.

"I hope you're happy with him. He'll never love you like I do."

Go cry in your Miller High life.

best post ever

[Snoogans]

DAMN YOU SNOOGANS! Why did you tell Kevin! WHY! WHY!

cause he was genuinely gettin upset. i couldnt see him like a sad dog. That was how i pictured BDC's dogs and it broke my heart

[epo]

cause he was genuinely gettin upset. i couldnt see him like a sad dog. That was how i pictured BDC's dogs and it broke my heart

What's the joke in trashing the Yankees now?

[Snoogans]

What's the joke in trashing the Yankees now?

brettmojo

[Kevin]

What's the joke in trashing the Yankees now?

If you can't find another fun way to trash Yankee fans, then you are NOT a true Yankee haters!

[epo]

If you can't find another fun way to trash Yankee fans, then you are NOT a true Yankee haters!

As far as Yankees hating goes...I can't compete with Snoogans in that field.

[Snoogans]

As far as Yankees hating goes...I can't compete with Snoogans in that field.

at least i educate myself about it when i do shoot my mouth off. End up owning all these fools

[HBox]

Shut up. Yankees fans drive me fucking nuts and here is why: You think your franchise can buy anything because you are special. Its seen as arrogant and asinine in the rest of the country.

Here's the irony: Boston spends alot of money too and nobody begrudges them shit. They develop players, find role players and add key pieces to win. The Yankees spend, spend, spend...that's it.

When you lose, we laugh. Nothing was more funny last year than watching a $200 million + payroll not make the playoffs.

I hope you sign Burnett and Lowe and Pettite and Sabathia and Texiera and Burrell and Ibanez. It seems like that's the Yankee way.

Let's look at the two Boston championship team's roster and see who came out of their farm system:

Jason Varitek
Kevin Youkilis
Dustin Pedroia
Jon Lester
Jonathan Papelbon


Players who were on the Yankees championships teams and home grown:

Andy Pettite
Derek Jeter
Bernie Williams
Mariano Rivera
Jorge Posada

I really thought you were above this discredited and very tired argument.

I took out Mendoza because I'm not going to go back and include all the scrub players.

[Snoogans]

Let's look at the two Boston championship team's roster and see who came out of their farm system:

Jason Varitek
Kevin Youkilis
Dustin Pedroia
Jon Lester
Jonathan Papelbon


Players who were on the Yankees championships teams and home grown:

Andy Pettite
Derek Jeter
Bernie Williams
Mariano Rivera
Jorge Posada
Ramiro Mendoza

I really thought you were above this discredited and very tired argument.
you are right, which is exactly why you dont win them anymore

and you forgot elsbury

[brettmojo]

http://struff.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/pee.gif
at least i educate myself about it when i do shoot my mouth off. End up owning all these fools

[Snoogans]

i know its tough to have a sox fan tell you how it really is with your own team. its like tellin kids there is no santa

[brettmojo]

i know its tough to have a sox fan tell you how it really is with your own team. its like tellin kids there is no santa
Oh, it's just how you see things through that "red colored glasses"... http://struff.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/icon_bananahi.gif

[Kevin]

you are right, which is exactly why you dont win them anymore

and you forgot elsbury

Elsbury is a one hit wonder.

[PD]

:popcorn:

[HBox]

Elsbury is a one hit wonder.

If I went and included Ellsbury then I'd have to go and add in a scrub like Ricky Ledee.

[Snoogans]

Oh, it's just how you see things through that "red colored glasses"... http://struff.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/icon_bananahi.gif

what sox colored glasses. None of this has anything to do with them. They werent interested in fatass

[Snoogans]

If I went and included Ellsbury then I'd have to go and add in a scrub like Ricky Ledee.

elsbury was huge in the playoffs in 07, despite his lack of success last year

[HBox]

elsbury was huge in the playoffs in 07, despite his lack of success last year

When he can lock down CF of his own merits he's welcome on that list. Until then he's slumming with the Jim Leyritz's of the world.

[Snoogans]

When he can lock down CF of his own merits he's welcome on that list. Until then he's slumming with the Jim Leyritz's of the world.

you might have to deal with a powerhouse platoon of elsbury and eric byrnes

[epo]

When he can lock down CF of his own merits he's welcome on that list. Until then he's slumming with the Jim Leyritz's of the world.

To be honest, I actually respected those Yankee teams with Leyritz, Brosius and O'Neill. They seemed to have heart and personality.

[epo]

you might have to deal with a powerhouse platoon of elsbury and eric byrnes

Can Byrnes even run with all of the hamstring problems he's had?

[foodcourtdruide]

To be honest, I actually respected those Yankee teams with Leyritz, Brosius and O'Neill. They seemed to have heart and personality.

and grit, which cannot be statistically measured.

[NYHCmikeX]

To be honest, I actually respected those Yankee teams with Leyritz, Brosius and O'Neill. They seemed to have heart and personality.

And bashing a team that won 4 out of 5 World Series titles would kind of make you look like a fool?

Oh, no. Heart and personality.

[Snoogans]

Can Byrnes even run with all of the hamstring problems he's had?

no idea but they are gonna get him for lugo if it happens, so who cares

[Snoogans]

And bashing a team that won 4 out of 5 World Series titles would kind of make you look like a fool?

Oh, no. Heart and personality.

ill bash em, even then they fucked up just as bad with other moves. i respect those guys, but i still laughed at shit like Sterling hitchcock

[epo]

And bashing a team that won 4 out of 5 World Series titles would kind of make you look like a fool?

Oh, no. Heart and personality.

I'm going to let Mike in on the gimmick. I was trashing the Yankees today to piss Kevin off. Me and Snoogans were in on it. I really don't give a shit about the Yankees and their trillion dollar payroll and I can't begrudge CC for taking the money.

But I'll be honest about one thing: I do think the Yankees current "model" of building a team is idiotic. Those 4/5 World Series titles teams were great as they were a mix of homegrown talent, role players and key trades/free agents.

Looking at the Yankees the last couple of years and again to 2009, they are on the "lets buy the talent"...which is the same model they used in the 1980's. Its a model for failure no matter how good the team is on paper.

And yes...that model the Yankees used in the 90s to build those teams seems to be the exact same model the Red Sox used to get to where they are today.

[NYHCmikeX]

ill bash em, even then they fucked up just as bad with other moves. i respect those guys, but i still laughed at shit like Sterling hitchcock

I thought you were gonna throw out Irabu at me.

Every team makes mistakes. It was a 5 year stretch of dominance, there's bound to be a couple bad moves. By and large, most of the move Gene Michael made it that time worked great. Sierra, Strawberry, Justice, Key, Boggs, Fielder, Cone, Wells,O Neill,Knoblauch,Brosius,El Duque,Tino,Raines off the top of my head, they were all acquisitions that worked out great. Even if the numbers weren't huge every one of those guys played a big part in at least one of the WS titles. Then they mixed in the standard names of homegrown studs and built a dynasty. Everyone makes like, "Hey, just do what you did before", it's alot easier when you have minor league prospects the caliber of Bernie,Jeter,Posada,Mo and Pettite. If Melky was as good as Bernie, and Cervelli (using him as an example) was as good as Posada the Yankees would have been a shitload better last year.

[brettmojo]

I'm going to let Mike in on the gimmick. I was trashing the Yankees today to piss Kevin off. Me and Snoogans were in on it. I really don't give a shit about the Yankees and their trillion dollar payroll and I can't begrudge CC for taking the money.

But I'll be honest about one thing: I do think the Yankees current "model" of building a team is idiotic. Those 4/5 World Series titles teams were great as they were a mix of homegrown talent, role players and key trades/free agents.

Looking at the Yankees the last couple of years and again to 2009, they are on the "lets buy the talent"...which is the same model they used in the 1980's. Its a model for failure no matter how good the team is on paper.

And yes...that model the Yankees used in the 90s to build those teams seems to be the exact same model the Red Sox used to get to where they are today.
They need to get over the win every year mentality. It's ridiculous to expect to do so. But I don't think it's ever gonna' happen as long as thy have the money to spend.

[foodcourtdruide]

They need to get over the win every year mentality. It's ridiculous to expect to do so. But I don't think it's ever gonna' happen as long as thy have the money to spend.

If you guys sucked for a few years the fans will get over the win every year mentality. I could totally see this team turning into a disaster.

[Snoogans]

If you guys sucked for a few years the fans will get over the win every year mentality. I could totally see this team turning into a disaster.

it was called the 80's

[NYHCmikeX]

If you guys sucked for a few years the fans will get over the win every year mentality. I could totally see this team turning into a disaster.

They were miserable in the 80s and no one showed up.

[foodcourtdruide]

it was called the 80's

Yeah, I don't care how much you spend, no team is above a shitty few years.

[Snoogans]

Yeah, I don't care how much you spend, no team is above a shitty few years.

you dont have to tell me bro. I sat through plenty with the sox and KEEP SITTING THROUGH THEM WITH THE FUCKIN KNICKS

[brettmojo]

If you guys sucked for a few years the fans will get over the win every year mentality. I could totally see this team turning into a disaster.
They should be over it by now. Between not winning a World Series since 2000, the whole collapse to the Red Sox debacle and last year not making the playoffs.

[brettmojo]

it was called the 80's

They were miserable in the 80s and no one showed up.
Those aren't the same fans that expect to win every year. The ones who jumped on in the late 90's... THEY are the ones who expect that shit.

[NYHCmikeX]

KEEP SITTING THROUGH THEM WITH THE FUCKIN KNICKS

2010, my friend.

Al Harrington is a beast though, huh?

[NYHCmikeX]

Those aren't the same fans that expect to win every year. The ones who jumped on in the late 90's... THEY are the ones who expect that shit.

They can eat my balls.

Mattingly,Sax,Espinoza,Pagliarulo,Mel Hall,Kelly,Barfield,Steve Bye Bye Balboni represent.

When I was a little kid, I didnt know the Yankees were ever good, I just thought they always sucked till I was like 7 or 8 and went to monument park and the HOF.

And my love for the Knicks and (until the end of last season) the Giants makes sure I appreciate every win the Yankees deliver.

[epo]

I thought you were gonna throw out Irabu at me.

Every team makes mistakes. It was a 5 year stretch of dominance, there's bound to be a couple bad moves. By and large, most of the move Gene Michael made it that time worked great. Sierra, Strawberry, Justice, Key, Boggs, Fielder, Cone, Wells,O Neill,Knoblauch,Brosius,El Duque,Tino,Raines off the top of my head, they were all acquisitions that worked out great. Even if the numbers weren't huge every one of those guys played a big part in at least one of the WS titles. Then they mixed in the standard names of homegrown studs and built a dynasty. Everyone makes like, "Hey, just do what you did before", it's alot easier when you have minor league prospects the caliber of Bernie,Jeter,Posada,Mo and Pettite. If Melky was as good as Bernie, and Cervelli (using him as an example) was as good as Posada the Yankees would have been a shitload better last year.

One could point out that team was made possible by the work of GM Gene Michael and that Brian Cashman never re-stocked the minor league system properly to "do what they did before".

[Snoogans]

2010, my friend.

Al Harrington is a beast though, huh?

rejuvenated. shocking how that happens consistantly. They are alot more fun to watch, but i still worry about 2010. Its not a lock yet

[NYHCmikeX]

One could point out that team was made possible by the work of GM Gene Michael and that Brian Cashman never re-stocked the minor league system properly to "do what they did before".

I believe I credited Stick with building that team in that post. And it's not exactly easy to pick out superstar prospects, especially constantly picking late. Jeter was like the third overall pick, I think.

[brettmojo]

One could point out that team was made possible by the work of GM Gene Michael and that Brian Cashman never re-stocked the minor league system properly to "do what they did before".
They did ignore it for a while. It wasn't really Cashman's fault. Steinbrenner meddled in who they were drafting. The last couple years Cashman has been given more control over the drafting and they've started rebuilding it and you seen guys like Joba and Hughes because of it.

Cashman's only real downfall has been with the bullpen. They haven't been able to stock it like it was during that late 90's run.

[NYHCmikeX]

rejuvenated. shocking how that happens consistantly. They are alot more fun to watch, but i still worry about 2010. Its not a lock yet

nah of course not, but I like to get my hopes up. This way, when LeBron goes to the Lakers, I'll be truly heartbroken.

I really am liking D'Antoni right now, he breathed brand new life into this team. I cant believe his parents named his brother Dan D'Antoni.

[epo]

I believe I credited Stick with building that team in that post. And it's not exactly easy to pick out superstar prospects, especially constantly picking late. Jeter was like the third overall pick, I think.

I see that with Michael. I'm just saying that Cashman seems to be a function of George's wallet rather than an ability to find young talent. Look at his first round picks in the 2000's:

2000 - C David Parrish
2001 - OF John Ford Griffin
2002 - NO PICK
2003 - 3B Eric Duncan
2004 - P Phillip Hughes
2005 - SS CJ Henry
2006 - P Ian Kennedy
2007 - P Andrew Beckham
2008 - P Gerrit Cole

Naturally the jury is going to be out on some...but overall that is a big difference from the previous administration. Buster Olney actually had a good column on how between 1997 and 2005 their system only drafted and developed only 10 position players, the best of whom was Andy Phillips. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=olney_buster&id=3589629)
Maybe they should get rid of Cashman?

[NYHCmikeX]

Maybe they should get rid of Cashman?

It certainly cant hurt. I'm not a huge fan of Cashman, never was, he is too soft. The bottom line is this team built a dynasty when Steinbrenner was banned from baseball and Gene Michael (a REAL baseball man) made all the personell moves without his meddling.

[epo]

By the way....the Cameron for Cabrera deal appears to be back on (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/35999269.html):

After a morning hiccup created by the Yankees’ request for the Brewers to pick up some of centerfielder Mike Cameron’s salary, the sides are back on track to complete a trade that would bring centerfielder Melky Cabrera to Milwaukee.

Asked about the likelihood of that trade now happening, Brewers general manager Doug Melvin just said there was “a strong possibility it could still happen.”

So, perhaps as early as tomorrow, the deal could be completed, with perhaps a second player coming back to the Brewers from the Yankees. Melvin said the financial aspects of the deal had been settled but talks continued on a second player coming from New York.

The sides were unable to complete the deal today because Yankees general manager Brian Cashman and his front office group left early to head back to New York. Melvin said he reached Cashman via telephone while he was at the airport here and it was agreed to resume talks tomorrow.

Some have viewed the switch from the soon-to-be-36 Cameron to the 24-year-old Cabrera as a significant downgrade in talent but the Brewers don't see it that way. And Melvin said some of the money saved in Cameron's contract would be used to go out and replenish the team's thinned pitching.

From this and the talk on sports radio, it appears that Cashman dropped the "Milwaukee pays for part of Cameron" shit. Hence...deal back on for now.

[NYHCmikeX]

How about the Brewers throw in one of those sweet sausage costumes for Kei Igawa?

[Snoogans]

How about the Brewers throw in one of those sweet sausage costumes for Kei Igawa?

id only accept that if it was the costume that has the dent in the head from Randel Simon

[brettmojo]

I see that with Michael. I'm just saying that Cashman seems to be a function of George's wallet rather than an ability to find young talent. Look at his first round picks in the 2000's:

2000 - C David Parrish
2001 - OF John Ford Griffin
2002 - NO PICK
2003 - 3B Eric Duncan
2004 - P Phillip Hughes
2005 - SS CJ Henry
2006 - P Ian Kennedy
2007 - P Andrew Beckham
2008 - P Gerrit Cole

Naturally the jury is going to be out on some...but overall that is a big difference from the previous administration. Buster Olney actually had a good column on how between 1997 and 2005 their system only drafted and developed only 10 position players, the best of whom was Andy Phillips. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=olney_buster&id=3589629)
Maybe they should get rid of Cashman?

Parrish was completely a Steinbrenner move. I forget what article I read where it talked about this but I remember it saying that Steinbrenner basically said,"Well, Posada's getting old, let's draft a catcher." The last few years since Cashman has taken more control they've been drafting the best available players instead of trying to draft positions.

By the way....the Cameron for Cabrera deal appears to be back on (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/35999269.html):

Oh joy.

[brettmojo]

How about the Brewers throw in one of those sweet sausage costumes for Kei Igawa?
And maybe a ride down that keen slide they have.

[NYHCmikeX]

id only accept that if it was the costume that has the dent in the head from Randel Simon

You the first baseman for THE Newark Bears?

And maybe a ride down that keen slide they have.

They dont let him slide into beer anymore though right? Was that ever real beer anyway, or was it faux beer? Epo?

I also want to be clear I wasnt shitting on the sausage race thing, I was shitting on suckass Igawa.

[brettmojo]

I'm really sick of hearing this Marlins guy saying anything about how the Yankees conduct business. Their fire sale after the Marlins first World Series win is still one of the more embarrassing things any team ever has done.

PTI is ripping apart the guy right now, fucking hilarious.

[Snoogans]

I'm really sick of hearing this Marlins guy saying anything about how the Yankees conduct business. Their fire sale after the Marlins first World Series win is still one of the more embarrassing things any team ever has done.

they did it twice

[NYHCmikeX]

I'm really sick of hearing this Marlins guy saying anything about how the Yankees conduct business. Their fire sale after the Marlins first World Series win is still one of the more embarrassing things any team ever has done.

PTI is ripping apart the guy right now, fucking hilarious.

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/08/02/die_hard4_narrowweb__300x450,0.jpg
Did someone say.....FIRE SALE?

[epo]

You the first baseman for THE Newark Bears?

They dont let him slide into beer anymore though right? Was that ever real beer anyway, or was it faux beer? Epo?

I also want to be clear I wasnt shitting on the sausage race thing, I was shitting on suckass Igawa.

It was never real beer, but in Milwaukee County Stadium it was a real guy sliding into a gigantic beer mug. Pretty sweet actually.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/09/23/sports/23cheer.190.2.jpg

The new slide is fine, I guess. If you are 12.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/41/Bernie_brewer_dugout_and_slide.jpg/180px-Bernie_brewer_dugout_and_slide.jpg

Its the only part of the new stadium that I don't really care for.

[Snoogans]

It was never real beer, but in Milwaukee County Stadium it was a real guy sliding into a gigantic beer mug. Pretty sweet actually.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/09/23/sports/23cheer.190.2.jpg

The new slide is fine, I guess. If you are 12.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/41/Bernie_brewer_dugout_and_slide.jpg/180px-Bernie_brewer_dugout_and_slide.jpg

Its the only part of the new stadium that I don't really care for.

bernie sucks dick

[NYHCmikeX]

That old slide rules.

Its still better than the Mets stupid paper mache apple though

[Snoogans]

Its still better than the Mets stupid paper mache apple

they are bringing that. Not even gettin a new one. They are bringing the piece of shit old one

[Snoogans]

epo wasnt the first major league filmed at County Stadium?

[NickyL0885]

they are bringing that. Not even gettin a new one. They are bringing the piece of shit old one

No no. they will have a new one. They are bringing the old one to display it for those who wanted the mets to keep it. But a new apple will be popping up when a player hits a homerun.

[MHasegawa]

yup, sequel was filmed at camden yards.


whats so wrong with cleveland stadium?

[MHasegawa]

No no. they will have a new one. They are bringing the old one to display it for those who wanted the mets to keep it. But a new apple will be popping up when a player hits a homerun.

how about that giant stupid iced coffee?

[NYHCmikeX]

whats so wrong with cleveland stadium?

Its in Cleveland

[goreds2]

The Cubs were never rumored to be looking at him, but I wish they would have. They want more power and a lefty bat...boom. Move Soriano to RF and play Dunn in LF. I'll happily take their relatively few defensive miscues out there in the face of the around 80 HR's a season they'd be producing between the two of them.

Love Dunn.

That is a very good point because Dunn has good stats in Wrigley Field.

[TigerWoods]

That is a very good point because Dunn has good stats in Wrigley Field.

None of these bitches have the power I have. 350 yards, no problem bitch

[brettmojo]

That old slide rules.

Its still better than the Mets stupid paper mache apple though

they are bringing that. Not even gettin a new one. They are bringing the piece of shit old one
I hear that apple is why the call New York "The Big Apple".

[NYHCmikeX]

I hear that apple is why the call New York "The Big Apple".

I thought it was cause there's always a worm at the core of it. (wocka wocka)

[Big_Joe]

god dam you guys really went at it today. I had a hard time reading it all. Not even sure what comments to add anymore. :surrender:

[razorboy]

I thought it was cause there's always a worm at the core of it. (wocka wocka)

Go ahead, bite it. Don't mind the maggots.

[K.C.]

Jake Peavy Rumors: Thursday
By Tim Dierkes [December 11 at 8:20pm CST]

8:20: Jon Heyman says that Peavy is frustrated by the team's inability to trade him. His agent, Barry Axelrod, says that Peavy had begun to get used to the idea of being a Cub, and now that opportunity is apparently gone. Axelrod says if the Padres approach he and his client with a trade, they'll consider it, but there won't be any more lists of approved teams.

Axelrod also criticizes the majority of baseball executives for their lack of action at the Winter Meetings.

"It's amazing to me how many people can waste time, money and resources, and get nothing done," Axelrod said. "Baseball moved lock, stock and barrel into that town, and absolutely nothing happened."


Hey dickface, maybe if your client didn't have a 28 team no trade list, he'd be moved by now.


And then there's this gem:

Manny Feels Ignored; Threatens Retirement
By Steve Adams [December 11 at 7:33pm CST]

Just when you thought you'd seen it all from Manny Ramirez... here we go again.

Ken Davidoff writes that Manny is feeling ignored on the free agent market, and will consider retiring if he doesn't receive a good offer soon.

I give this about a 0.3% chance of being a legitimate threat, and about a 99.7% chance that this is the old cliche of Manny being Manny at this point.

The Dodgers took a two-year, $45MM offer off the table when free agency began. The Yankees have interest but are unlikely to pursue if they land another quality starting pitcher. The Nationals have been thrown around, but they're wrapped up in Mark Teixeira right now. In the meantime, it's good to know Manny is still enjoying himself...

Ramirez told a friend that he spends most of his time working out, watching cartoons and playing video games.

[PD]

they are bringing that. Not even gettin a new one. They are bringing the piece of shit old one

actually not true.
(I see NickyL0885 actually answered this)

if I was going to keep something, it would be this http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v16/frostyli/shea.jpg

[Kevin]

From our boy Peter Abraham

It won’t be today as both GMs are traveling, but the Yankees could have Mike Cameron early tomorrow.
The on-again, off-again deal is back on with the Brewers agreeing to take Melky Cabrera in return for Cameron. The question is whether the Yankees do the deal straight up and get no money in return or include a second-tier pitching prospect) and get some cash back.
The better the prospect, the more money the Yankees get. That could take a bit to figure out. But it sounds like this deal will get done.
UPDATE, 6:14 p.m.: The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel quotes Brewers GM Doug Melvin saying the deal is a “strong possibility.”


BOOOOOOO



DECEMBER
11
I knew something was up.
Brian Cashman, according to the Post, flew to Texas to meet with Andy Pettitte in Houston. The well-traveled GM is probably arriving with an ultimatum.
In essence: take it or leave it. The Yankees would be pleased to have Pettitte back as one of their starters. But not for anything close to the $16 million he made last season.
The Yankees, at the moment, have Sabathia, Wang and Chamberlain in the rotation with A.J. Burnett probably on the way. The Yankees could go out and get Ben Sheets for two years or fill the spot from within.
Andy has enough left to land with another team. But he wants little to do with living or playing anywhere else. After everything that went down last year, Pettitte needs to show the Yankees some love.

I think Andy is done. It would a mistake.

[K.C.]

DECEMBER
11
I knew something was up.
Brian Cashman, according to the Post, flew to Texas to meet with Andy Pettitte in Houston. The well-traveled GM is probably arriving with an ultimatum.
In essence: take it or leave it. The Yankees would be pleased to have Pettitte back as one of their starters. But not for anything close to the $16 million he made last season.
The Yankees, at the moment, have Sabathia, Wang and Chamberlain in the rotation with A.J. Burnett probably on the way. The Yankees could go out and get Ben Sheets for two years or fill the spot from within.
Andy has enough left to land with another team. But he wants little to do with living or playing anywhere else. After everything that went down last year, Pettitte needs to show the Yankees some love.

I think Andy is done. It would a mistake.

There's actually been a couple different reports in the last few days of the Phillies kicking the tires on him.

I think Pettitte could put together another good season or two on a NL team that gives him run support.

But like Abraham said, I wonder if he just doesn't really want to go through the hassle of going somewhere new.

He's pretty much accomplished everything he can. He has plenty of rings, plenty of money, he's not nearing any milestones (he'd have to pitch another 6-7 seasons to even sniff 300 wins).

I could see him hanging it up.

[SuperKarateMonkeyDeathFez]

Hey dickface, maybe if your client didn't have a 28 team no trade list, he'd be moved by now.

Orrrrrrrrrrrrrr he realizes that Towers is trying to play with cards he does't have. Everyone knows Peavy wants to be moved. Everyone knows Towers NEEDS to free up another $40 million for the Padres as per their owners' demands. Everyone saw what the Twins got for Santana in a deal that was much more negoitable, yet Towers was still demanding half a dozen players and cash in return.

Yes, Jake Peavy is Jake Peavy, but Towers is acting like he has the upper hand here. He doesn't. Towers fucked the deal.

[epo]

According to Ken Rosenthal of Fox Sports: (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8931496/Sources:-Ibanez-reaches-deal-with-Phillies)

Free-agent outfielder Raul Ibanez has reached preliminary agreement with the Phillies on a three-year, $30 million contract, according to major-league sources.

The deal, pending a physical, was reached early Friday morning at the winter meetings in Las Vegas. Phillies executives and Ibanez's agents stayed an extra day to complete the contract.

I guess that means the end of the Pat Burrell days?

[NYHCmikeX]

According to Ken Rosenthal of Fox Sports: (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8931496/Sources:-Ibanez-reaches-deal-with-Phillies)



I guess that means the end of the Pat Burrell days?

I wonder where he'll end up. Who needs a right handed power bat?

[Bossanova]

I wonder where he'll end up. Who needs a right handed power bat?

Maybe the mtes should pick him up so someone can hit a homer in the 7th at home.


I do not want him

[K.C.]

Maybe the mtes should pick him up so someone can hit a homer in the 7th at home.


I do not want him

I actually wouldn't be surprised if Burrell lands in Tampa as a DH.

[Bossanova]

I actually wouldn't be surprised if Burrell lands in Tampa as a DH.

Yeah, that would be a good fit. He should only go to the AL and become a DH. He is dreadful in the field

[El Mudo]

Yeah, that would be a good fit. He should only go to the AL and become a DH. He is dreadful in the field



He EqA lifetime is .291, which is decent enough, although that -35 career FRAA is Godawful

I think he'd be a good option here in DC if it doesn't work out with Dunn or Texiera

[MHasegawa]

Boston's changing their primary logo and uni's

http://www.sportslogos.net/images/logos/53/53/full/c0whfsa9j0vbs079opk2s05lx.gif

new road jersey
http://redsoxinsider.mlblogs.com/DSC_3172.jpg

new alt. road jersey
http://redsoxinsider.mlblogs.com/DSC_3186.jpg

new alt. home jersey
http://redsoxinsider.mlblogs.com/DSC_3181.jpg

new alt. cap
http://redsoxinsider.mlblogs.com/DSC_3231.jpg

primary logo
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3256/3101113307_f18398580e_o.png

secondary logo
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3001/3101949986_7b93fc95cc_o.png

[IMSlacker]

The Blue Jays have signed Matt Clement. (http://www.ronfez.net/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=2005912) Congratulations, Spoon!

[El Mudo]

Boston's changing their primary logo and uni's

http://www.sportslogos.net/images/logos/53/53/full/c0whfsa9j0vbs079opk2s05lx.gif

new road jersey
http://redsoxinsider.mlblogs.com/DSC_3172.jpg

new alt. road jersey
http://redsoxinsider.mlblogs.com/DSC_3186.jpg

new alt. home jersey
http://redsoxinsider.mlblogs.com/DSC_3181.jpg

new alt. cap
http://redsoxinsider.mlblogs.com/DSC_3231.jpg

primary logo
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3256/3101113307_f18398580e_o.png

secondary logo
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3001/3101949986_7b93fc95cc_o.png



They used to have that grey jersey in the 80s

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/image/1986/10/10/005586821.jpg

http://www.billtrippe.com/img/bill%20buckner-thumb-320x489.jpg

Different font this time, but I really like it

[Snoogans]

i like it too. It seems kinda old school. Reminds me of the Giants went to the new jersey's with the darker blue that were more like the old time jersies

[NYHCmikeX]

The jerseys arent bad, that new hat sucks ass though.

[Bossanova]

i like it too. It seems kinda old school. Reminds me of the Giants went to the new jersey's with the darker blue that were more like the old time jersies

Its a throw back to the 30's

[PD]

i like it too. It seems kinda old school. Reminds me of the Giants went to the new jersey's with the darker blue that were more like the old time jersies

don't like the hats, or the red uni

keep the B

[HBox]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3765754)

[IMSlacker]

It's only half what they're paying Sabathia. What a bargain!

[PD]

It's only half what they're paying Sabathia. What a bargain!

and it's only 5 years.

[cougarjake13]

i like it too. It seems kinda old school. Reminds me of the Giants went to the new jersey's with the darker blue that were more like the old time jersies

you never see the giants wear throwback uni's

they dont have much to choose from and no one would want those ugly ass late 70's uni's but what about the 86-90 super bowl teams uni's ??

[Kevin]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3765754)

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

[Bossanova]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Desperate times

[Kevin]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Desperate times

3 simple words..

Your sports teams.

[Bossanova]

3 simple words..

Your sports teams.

Oh yeah, well when is the last time the Gian..... oh yeah
Well how many have the Yank.......dammit


Last 15 years
Devils-3 cups
Rangers- 1 cup

suck on that

[K.C.]

Cashman just put Burnett on the 60 day DL. He opened an artery with the pen he used to sign his contract.

[Bossanova]

Cashman just put Burnett on the 60 day DL. He opened an artery with the pen he used to sign his contract.

HAHA! :lol:

[epo]

One of my favorite baseball writers is Tom Haudricourt. He is generally very accurate, timely and clever. Today's post about the AJ Burnett signing by the Yankees is hilarious (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/36067319.html):

Yankees Update:

NOW WE KNOW WHY THE YANKEES HAVEN'T HAD TIME TO COMPLETE THE CAMERON DEAL TODAY. IT'S BEING REPORTED THAT THEY'VE AGREED TO A FIVE-YEAR, $82.5 MILLION CONTRACT WITH A.J. BURNETT.

THAT MEANS THE YANKEES HAVE SPENT MORE THAN $240 MILLION TO SIGN PITCHERS CC SABATHIA AND BURNETT. AS A POINT OF REFERENCE, OWNER MARK ATTANASIO PAID $223 MILLION FOR THE ENTIRE BREWERS FRANCHISE.

GOOD TO SEE THE DECLINING ECONOMY ISN'T WORRYING THE YANKEES.

It's funny to see how invested some of these local writers get involved with their teams...to the point of an all-caps post. It's also funny to see what those with an interest from the inside think of this Yankees spending spree.

[Snoogans]

why not give sheets 5 years? he probably gets hurt less then Burnett

[epo]

why not give sheets 5 years? he probably gets hurt less then Burnett

Somebody fire up the plane for that genius Cashman!

[Snoogans]

Somebody fire up the plane for that genius Cashman!

make sure Michael Bloomberg signs that check

[Puggle_kicker]

to the point of an all-caps post.
Maybe it was an accident? :unsure:

[epo]

make sure Michael Bloomberg signs that check

Now I want Bloomberg to rescind the deal.

[Marc with a c]

mets got rid of schoneweis for i believe conor robertson from arizona. his minor league stats looked pretty good 300 IP 380 Ks less hits than innings as well. he came from oakland in the haren deal.

[Bossanova]

mets got rid of schoneweis for i believe conor robertson from arizona. his minor league stats looked pretty good 300 IP 380 Ks less hits than innings as well. he came from oakland in the haren deal.

I am so happy to see the assholes of the bullpen leave.

[epo]

mets got rid of schoneweis for i believe conor robertson from arizona. his minor league stats looked pretty good 300 IP 380 Ks less hits than innings as well. he came from oakland in the haren deal.

Here ya go: (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20081212&content_id=3715788&vkey=pr_ari&fext=.jsp&c_id=ari&partnerId=rss_mlb)

The Arizona Diamondbacks have acquired left-handed pitcher Scott Schoeneweis and cash considerations from the New York Mets in exchange for right-handed pitcher Connor Robertson, as announced by D-backs' Executive Vice President and General Manager Josh Byrnes.

Robertson is a 27 year old fringe guy....but it gets Schoeneweis out of town.

[PD]

Here ya go: (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20081212&content_id=3715788&vkey=pr_ari&fext=.jsp&c_id=ari&partnerId=rss_mlb)

Robertson is a 27 year old fringe guy....but it gets Schoeneweis out of town.
pretty much

The end of the season they kept saying "addition by subtraction"
I guess they meant it.
at least its a guy who showed something in the minors- which is most likely where he will start season

[cougarjake13]

its win win


schoendick sucked ass

so even if connor sucks ass as well


at least schoendick cant lose games for us anymore

[johnniewalker]

why not give sheets 5 years? he probably gets hurt less then Burnett

When you have to worry about vertigo as a possible injury, that would be enough for me.

[goreds2]

The Cubs were never rumored to be looking at him, but I wish they would have. They want more power and a lefty bat...boom. Move Soriano to RF and play Dunn in LF. I'll happily take their relatively few defensive miscues out there in the face of the around 80 HR's a season they'd be producing between the two of them.

Love Dunn.

Someone called up XM175 HOMEPLATE this morning talking about the scenerio you mentioned (was it you? :smile: ). Th Cubs have the money although I would not like Dunn in the same division as the Reds. :help:

[johnniewalker]

Dunn is the weirdest player in the mlb. He gets shit on way too much for his strikeouts and average. I've always thought if you want more rbi stick him at 5 but if you want more runs stick him at 2. I think his homerun totals are so huge it pissess people off he's not the prototypical star player. But you always know what you are going to get with him, 40hr, low average, high obp. I'd take that anyday.

[goreds2]

It will be interesting how much Dunn gets. He made 13 million last year.

I have not heard anything regarding Griffey Jr.

[Big_Joe]

I have not heard anything regarding Griffey Jr.

There seemed to be a little interest for him early in the off season but nothing latly. There is still a few free agents that will sign before people start to look at Griffey.

[cougarjake13]

There seemed to be a little interest for him early in the off season but nothing latly. There is still a few free agents that will sign before people start to look at Griffey.

i heard early reports were of him going back to seattle

[El Mudo]

Dunn is the weirdest player in the mlb. He gets shit on way too much for his strikeouts and average. I've always thought if you want more rbi stick him at 5 but if you want more runs stick him at 2. I think his homerun totals are so huge it pissess people off he's not the prototypical star player. But you always know what you are going to get with him, 40hr, low average, high obp. I'd take that anyday.


Its pretty simple..."old school" baseball people (like Joe Morgan and other archaic fossils who believe things like "wins" are the best way to measure a pitcher's effectiveness) hate him for the low average and strikeouts, but Sabermetrics people love him


As a Sabermetrics guy, I think Adam Dunn's the bees knees. Ill take a guy with a lifetime EqA of .300 and lifetime OPS of .899 and OPS + of 130 anyday (and thats with his poo poo OBP because he strikes out so much...the gentleman can RAKE)


And he's only 28 years old...he should be just about to hit his prime

[K.C.]

Its pretty simple..."old school" baseball people (like Joe Morgan and other archaic fossils who believe things like "wins" are the best way to measure a pitcher's effectiveness) hate him for the low average and strikeouts, but Sabermetrics people love him


As a Sabermetrics guy, I think Adam Dunn's the bees knees. Ill take a guy with a lifetime EqA of .300 and lifetime OPS of .899 and OPS + of 130 anyday (and thats with his poo poo OBP because he strikes out so much...the gentleman can RAKE)


And he's only 28 years old...he should be just about to hit his prime


I have to admit I've never been a fan of Dunn's. Something about his stats have always rung hollow to me.

I'll confess, though, that I've never really delved deep into it. Perhaps I will one day and firmly form an opinion about the guy.

I will dispute that he's entering his prime, though. I mean...you're right...27-35 are the prime years for most players. But I don't think the way Dunn plays the game lends himself to much improvement. He's very all or nothing.

In that respect, I expect his trajectory to follow Pat Burrell's (although with more power). He'll post consistent power numbers, but never really have those breakout prime years where he puts it all together.

I also see Dunn breaking down quicker than normal players because of his size.

[SuperKarateMonkeyDeathFez]

I also see Dunn breaking down quicker than normal players because of his size.

Why? He's not unusually heavy or anything.

I'm not sure how his stats are hollow. OBP and SLG are pretty concrete. The mountain of home runs is pretty solid, too.

The guy has his flaws, but his value FAR outweighs any of them. That he's not more in demand just shows how stupid the people acting as GM's and managers can be and how slow this game often is to evolve.

He gets my vote for the most underrated difference maker player out there based on performance alone and dismissing any of those garbage intangables that mean nothing.

[HBox]

Adam Dunn style of offense is just unsatisfying to watch. He is very similar to post 2002 Jason Giambi: low average, high OBP and SLG and a ton of HRs. He;s obviously healthier and more consistent season to season than Giambi but when you watch someone like these two you tend to remember only two things: those hot streaks when they hit a bunch of HRs and the rest of the time when they are striking out over and over again. All those walks that mean something are forgotten before they get to first base and all that's left in the memory is a few HRs and a ton of outs. IMO this is why Dunn is so undervalued.

[SuperKarateMonkeyDeathFez]

Adam Dunn style of offense is just unsatisfying to watch. He is very similar to post 2002 Jason Giambi: low average, high OBP and SLG and a ton of HRs. He;s obviously healthier and more consistent season to season than Giambi but when you watch someone like these two you tend to remember only two things: those hot streaks when they hit a bunch of HRs and the rest of the time when they are striking out over and over again. All those walks that mean something are forgotten before they get to first base and all that's left in the memory is a few HRs and a ton of outs. IMO this is why Dunn is so undervalued.

Which is silly.

[K.C.]

.241 avg w/ RISP last season and only 15 of his 40 HRs w/ runners on base. (46 Ks -- 27% of his total strikeouts for the season...25 solo HRs?)

.208 avg w/ RISP and two out.

Only 65 RBI w/ RISP last season (by comparison, Raul Ibanez had 82).

.186 avg in Late Inning Pressure situations.

.185 avg in Late Inning Pressure w/ runners on base.

.219 avg w/ two outs in general.

.195 avg against lefties, with 10 HRs and 22 RBI (which explains why he's such an easy out late in games)


He has no favorable clutch statistics. I could even take the low averages and lack of contact if he had ridiculously good HR and RBI totals in those situations, but he doesn't.

He's average at best. I appreciate a guy with good OBP and SLG, but that's not necessarily the role of a clean up hitter.

Your job is to drive in runs. If you want to say he's miscast and should be somewhere else in the lineup to better utilize his assets, I'd agree.

And as far as the rest goes, he's a liability defensively, and a terrible base runner.

All in all, he's in the Ibanez, Burrell class of outfielders. A decent hand to have, but nothing special.

[goreds2]

Any Reds fans with XM radio:

Every Tuesday Night on XM173 (WLW) during the off season.

12/16/08:

6PM-7PM CINCINNATI REDS HOT STOVE LEAGUE

What trades still need to be made? Ask Marty and Thom Brennaman.

http://www.700wlw.com/pages/programming.html

[TripleSkeet]

Ya know, I understand when youre gouging your fan base for season tickets some as high as $800,000 dollars a year, that you go out to sign some big name players. But what the Yankees are doing this year is not just ridiculous, its the epitome of what is wrong with the way baseball is run.

Sabathia, then Burnett, now they are looking at Manny. Seriously, enough is enough. Why cant MLB just have a REAL salary cap. Like the NFL. No "penalty tax". Make it a hard cap. You can spend this much money....and thats it. If youre over the cap, oh well, time to start cutting players.

Meh. I hope they fucking finish dead last this year. They are nothing but rich, cherry picking scumbags. Letting other teams make stars, and then stealing them away.

Are New Yorkers seriously that fucking retarded to spend that kind of money to see a baseball game? What am I talking about? Im from Philly, I already know they are.

[Kevin]

Ya know, I understand when youre gouging your fan base for season tickets some as high as $800,000 dollars a year, that you go out to sign some big name players. But what the Yankees are doing this year is not just ridiculous, its the epitome of what is wrong with the way baseball is run.

Sabathia, then Burnett, now they are looking at Manny. Seriously, enough is enough. Why cant MLB just have a REAL salary cap. Like the NFL. No "penalty tax". Make it a hard cap. You can spend this much money....and thats it. If youre over the cap, oh well, time to start cutting players.

Meh. I hope they fucking finish dead last this year. They are nothing but rich, cherry picking scumbags. Letting other teams make stars, and then stealing them away.

Are New Yorkers seriously that fucking retarded to spend that kind of money to see a baseball game? What am I talking about? Im from Philly, I already know they are.

Eh, Yankees can't win.. They spend alot, they get called greedy. They make so much and if they don't spend. Then they are called cheap motherfuckers who only care about money.

The team needed a shit load this year. And since they can't trade with people because they get asked for twice as much as another team. Because most teams hate them.

They got asked for their 3 4 top guys for Johan, yet the Mets get him for shit.

And many other examples.

CC They spent a shit load more for. So you have a point there.

But AJ they had to spend that because another team was offering close to that.. Braves at 5- 80.

They had to improve the team somehow, going into a new park and charging that much for tix.

[brettmojo]

Ya know, I understand when youre gouging your fan base for season tickets some as high as $800,000 dollars a year, that you go out to sign some big name players. But what the Yankees are doing this year is not just ridiculous, its the epitome of what is wrong with the way baseball is run.

Sabathia, then Burnett, now they are looking at Manny. Seriously, enough is enough. Why cant MLB just have a REAL salary cap. Like the NFL. No "penalty tax". Make it a hard cap. You can spend this much money....and thats it. If youre over the cap, oh well, time to start cutting players.

Meh. I hope they fucking finish dead last this year. They are nothing but rich, cherry picking scumbags. Letting other teams make stars, and then stealing them away.

Are New Yorkers seriously that fucking retarded to spend that kind of money to see a baseball game? What am I talking about? Im from Philly, I already know they are.
http://blogs.mysanantonio.com/weblogs/atlarge/sour%20grapes2.jpg

[SuperKarateMonkeyDeathFez]

Ya know, I understand when youre gouging your fan base for season tickets some as high as $800,000 dollars a year, that you go out to sign some big name players. But what the Yankees are doing this year is not just ridiculous, its the epitome of what is wrong with the way baseball is run.

Sabathia, then Burnett, now they are looking at Manny. Seriously, enough is enough. Why cant MLB just have a REAL salary cap. Like the NFL. No "penalty tax". Make it a hard cap. You can spend this much money....and thats it. If youre over the cap, oh well, time to start cutting players.

Meh. I hope they fucking finish dead last this year. They are nothing but rich, cherry picking scumbags. Letting other teams make stars, and then stealing them away.

Are New Yorkers seriously that fucking retarded to spend that kind of money to see a baseball game? What am I talking about? Im from Philly, I already know they are.

I believe evn if they sign Manny that their payroll would still actually be less than it was last year. It definitely is well below it right now. Why are people griping about them spending when they're actually spending less?

[SuperKarateMonkeyDeathFez]

With the Braves signing Furcal, I wonder if they'll end up with Peavy. They seemed to be the other team he was willing to go to, and the main sticking point was that the Braves didn't want to give up their SS.

[SuperKarateMonkeyDeathFez]

.241 avg w/ RISP last season and only 15 of his 40 HRs w/ runners on base. (46 Ks -- 27% of his total strikeouts for the season...25 solo HRs?)

.208 avg w/ RISP and two out.

Only 65 RBI w/ RISP last season (by comparison, Raul Ibanez had 82).

.186 avg in Late Inning Pressure situations.

.185 avg in Late Inning Pressure w/ runners on base.

.219 avg w/ two outs in general.

.195 avg against lefties, with 10 HRs and 22 RBI (which explains why he's such an easy out late in games)


He has no favorable clutch statistics. I could even take the low averages and lack of contact if he had ridiculously good HR and RBI totals in those situations, but he doesn't.

He's average at best. I appreciate a guy with good OBP and SLG, but that's not necessarily the role of a clean up hitter.

Your job is to drive in runs. If you want to say he's miscast and should be somewhere else in the lineup to better utilize his assets, I'd agree.

And as far as the rest goes, he's a liability defensively, and a terrible base runner.

All in all, he's in the Ibanez, Burrell class of outfielders. A decent hand to have, but nothing special.

He's not a cleanup hitter. He's not a #3 hitter. He's an amazing #2 or #5 hitter. I'd go with the former. And win a shitload of baseball games.

Interesting how you chose to post batting average as your trump card and complete ignored his various clutch OPS numbers and his OPS in the various hitting with men on base scenarios.

Hmm.

[epo]

With the Braves signing Furcal, I wonder if they'll end up with Peavy. They seemed to be the other team he was willing to go to, and the main sticking point was that the Braves didn't want to give up their SS.

It would only make sense. With Escobar & Furcal at SS and Kelly Johnson at 2B they would either move Johnson to the OF so that Escobar can go to 2B....or move Escobar.

This would make a move on Peavy a pretty obvious next step for them.

[SuperKarateMonkeyDeathFez]

It would only make sense. With Escobar & Furcal at SS and Kelly Johnson at 2B they would either move Johnson to the OF so that Escobar can go to 2B....or move Escobar.

This would make a move on Peavy a pretty obvious next step for them.

Especially since they didn't get Burnett and Towers needs to move Peavy.

I guess I can just hope the Cubs sign Lowe.

[epo]

Especially since they didn't get Burnett and Towers needs to move Peavy.

I guess I can just hope the Cubs sign Lowe.

That could be a nice off-season for Atlanta adding Furcal, Vazquez & Peavy.

And don't you have enough pitching? Greedy bastard.

[SuperKarateMonkeyDeathFez]

That could be a nice off-season for Atlanta adding Furcal, Vazquez & Peavy.

And don't you have enough pitching? Greedy bastard.

You can never have enough quality starting pitching.

[Kevin]

That could be a nice off-season for Atlanta adding Furcal, Vazquez & Peavy.

And don't you have enough pitching? Greedy bastard.



He needs as much pitching as he can have for when Sori and company go in the tank when it counts

[epo]

You can never have enough quality starting pitching.

Who do you think you are....a Yankees fan?

[Kevin]

Who do you think you are....a Yankees fan?



Thats hurtful, you cheese crazed pasty bastard

[epo]

Thats hurtful, you cheese crazed pasty bastard

Shouldn't you be busy hoping the Yankees sign Manny, Tex and Derek Lowe?

[Bossanova]

Can everyone seriously stop crying about who spends the most money? The Yanks, Mets, Sox, Angels, Dodgers, and Cubs can spend money because they don't play in shit hole toens. I'm sorry everyone wants to watch these cities play and the teams generate money. They have to spend money or they have to give it away. They need players and all of them demand big saleries. You wanna blame someone, blame Hicks from the Rangers. If he doesn't give ARod that deal, you may not have ever seen anything that high. Not only do they have money but these cities are in contention every year, so people want to play there. So what, our teams are supposed to say NOPE, we can afford you, but the Royals want to give you less for less years. You should go there. Fuck you, i hope the Mets give Manny 60 mil for two years. They don't have many years left in their window. Win the fuck now. I couldn't care less if the Pirates never do anything. Pittsburgh is in PA, the whole state can suck a cock. You want to win, you have to spend money. Your team doesn't have the money? Seek out Mark Cuban, who will spend the cash.

[Kevin]

Shouldn't you be busy hoping the Yankees sign Manny, Tex and Derek Lowe?

Hey i am not greedy!

Tex and Lowe will be just fine.

Manny would be just overdoing it!

[Bossanova]

Shouldn't you be busy hoping the Yankees sign Manny, Tex and Derek Lowe?

Shouldn't your team be black free by now? I know they want to be

[Kevin]

Can everyone seriously stop crying about who spends the most money? The Yanks, Mets, Sox, Angels, Dodgers, and Cubs can spend money because they don't play in shit hole toens. I'm sorry everyone wants to watch these cities play and the teams generate money. They have to spend money or they have to give it away. They need players and all of them demand big saleries. You wanna blame someone, blame Hicks from the Rangers. If he doesn't give ARod that deal, you may not have ever seen anything that high. Not only do they have money but these cities are in contention every year, so people want to play there. So what, our teams are supposed to say NOPE, we can afford you, but the Royals want to give you less for less years. You should go there. Fuck you, i hope the Mets give Manny 60 mil for two years. They don't have many years left in their window. Win the fuck now. I couldn't care less if the Pirates never do anything. Pittsburgh is in PA, the whole state can suck a cock. You want to win, you have to spend money. Your team doesn't have the money? Seek out Mark Cuban, who will spend the cash.

Which he makes from insider trading.

[Kevin]

Shouldn't your team be black free by now? I know they want to be

CC down, next mike Cameron, next Prince Feilder

[epo]

Hey i am not greedy!

Tex and Lowe will be just fine.

Manny would be just overdoing it!

Haha.

Here is a question...Is Manny worth the hassle?

[Bossanova]

Haha.

Here is a question...Is Manny worth the hassle?

For the Yankees, no chance. Girardi will either kill himself or make Manny want out. The Latin friendly Mets, hell yes

Plus, I hate short hair Manny

[epo]

Shouldn't your team be black free by now? I know they want to be

Nah...I want to see the team go the other way, a total mixed bag:

C - Kendall. Ugly
1b - Fielder. Black
2b - Weeks. Black
3b - Hall. Black
SS - Hardy. Boring white guy
LF - Braun. Jewish
CF - Cabrera? Hispanic.
RF - Hart. Redneck.

Hardy has to go. Too boring.

[Kevin]

Haha.

Here is a question...Is Manny worth the hassle?

I'd like nothing better than for Manny to get less than the 20mil per he bitched out of Bos from.

That would be sweet Justice...

Does Robinson Cano, who already does not give a shit, need a guy like Manny in the club house?

[Bossanova]

Nah...I want to see the team go the other way, a total mixed bag:

C - Kendall. Ugly
1b - Fielder. Black
2b - Weeks. Black
3b - Hall. Black
SS - Hardy. Boring white guy
LF - Braun. Jewish
CF - Cabrera? Hispanic.
RF - Hart. Redneck.

Hardy has to go. Too boring.

I don't see any chinamen

[Kevin]

Nah...I want to see the team go the other way, a total mixed bag:

C - Kendall. Ugly
1b - Fielder. Black
2b - Weeks. Black
3b - Hall. Black
SS - Hardy. Boring white guy
LF - Braun. Jewish
CF - Cabrera? Hispanic.
RF - Hart. Redneck.

Hardy has to go. Too boring.

Jews aren't white?

You learn something new everyday.

[epo]

I don't see any chinamen

You find me a chinese shortstop who can turn a double play and we may have something. Either that or we could always use another arm in the bullpen.

[Bossanova]

Jews aren't white?

You learn something new everyday.

Not in the fancy world that epo and I live

[epo]

Jews aren't white?

You learn something new everyday.

Shh.....I'm finding a cheap excuse to keep Braun.

[Kevin]

Shh.....I'm finding a cheap excuse to keep Braun.

Jews are only cheap when they give, not when they take.

[Bossanova]

Jews are only cheap when they give, not when they take.

Umm, the Mets got Shawn Green really cheap. I mean he did suck, but still.

[epo]

Not in the fancy world that epo and I live

These commoners don't understand half of what is involved in being a "Reillyluck Classy Man Award Winner".

[Bossanova]

These commoners don't understand half of what is involved in being a "Reillyluck Classy Man Award Winner".

no they certainly do not. I feel that these vagrants will only bring us down one day

[Kevin]

These commoners don't understand half of what is involved in being a "Reillyluck Classy Man Award Winner".

no they certainly do not. I feel that these vagrants will only bring us down one day

I would not be bragging aboot being in a group that allows gunnies like Stugots in.

[epo]

no they certainly do not. I feel that these vagrants will only bring us down one day

The blight of society has no clue about the pressures that we, the elite, face each and every day.

[Bossanova]

The blight of society has no clue about the pressures that we, the elite, face each and every day.

Nor will they experience how we wash the pressures away with our fine single malt scotches

[Kevin]

Nor will they experience how we wash the pressures away with our fine single malt scotches

followed by a heaping helping of GBAHAHABal AND PASTA FAZUL.

Savages.

[DandyCandy]

Nah...I want to see the team go the other way, a total mixed bag:

C - Kendall. Ugly
1b - Fielder. Black
2b - Weeks. Black
3b - Hall. Black
SS - Hardy. Boring white guy
LF - Braun. Jewish
CF - Cabrera? Hispanic.
RF - Hart. Redneck.

Hardy has to go. Too boring.

I see you have a thing against Cuban's. This isnt fair:glurps:

[Bossanova]

You are such a faggot

[Kevin]

I see you have a thing against Cuban's. This isnt fair:glurps:

they only show up for the playoffs.

needless to say, Arod and the Mets hispanics are not Cuban..

[Bossanova]

they only show up for the playoffs.

needless to say, Arod and the Mets hispanics are not Cuban..

Son of a bitch

[PD]

they only show up for the playoffs.

needless to say, Arod and the Mets hispanics are not Cuban..

so if El Duque didn't suddenly show his age, mets woulda been in playoffs?

[Kevin]

so if El Duque didn't suddenly show his age, mets woulda been in playoffs?

Most likely.

[epo]

Nor will they experience how we wash the pressures away with our fine single malt scotches

I had to kill a man with my bare hands last week for offering me a Dewars. The cops of course understood my point and I'm now suing his estate for damages.

[Bossanova]

I had to kill a man with my bare hands last week for offering me a Dewars. The cops of course understood my point and I'm now suing his estate for damages.

HAHA! Cops can be useful sometimes. I would have used that swill as mouth wash and spit it back in that fucks face before I killed him.

[epo]

HAHA! Cops can be useful sometimes. I would have used that swill as mouth wash and spit it back in that fucks face before I killed him.

That's why the elite keep at least 3-5 cops on the payroll. Being above the law is a beautiful thing.

[PD]

Nor will they experience how we wash the pressures away with our fine single malt scotches

so what are the current drinks of choice?

[epo]

And in baseball news the Cubs have signed OF Joey Gathright.

Why?

[Kevin]

That's why the elite keep at least 3-5 cops on the payroll. Being above the law is a beautiful thing.

Someone should have told fucking Plax that before he decided to be a douchebag.

[IMSlacker]

And in baseball news the Cubs have signed OF Joey Gathright.

Why?

Probably because they want to trade Felix Pie.

[Bossanova]

so what are the current drinks of choice?

Balvenie
Glenfiddich
Glenlivet

[Bossanova]

And in baseball news the Cubs have signed OF Joey Gathright.

Why?

Thats just odd

[PD]

I've been mostly

http://www.comparestoreprices.co.uk/images/ma/macallan-single-highland-malt-scotch.jpg

and a bit of

http://www.thewhiskyexchange.com/Site_Data/thewhiskyexchange_com/dbimages/large/HLPOB.12YOV8.jpg

although I'd never turn down Balvenie, Glenfiddich, or Glenlivet

[Bossanova]

I've been mostly

http://www.comparestoreprices.co.uk/images/ma/macallan-single-highland-malt-scotch.jpg

and a bit of

http://www.thewhiskyexchange.com/Site_Data/thewhiskyexchange_com/dbimages/large/HLPOB.12YOV8.jpg

although I'd never turn down Balvenie, Glenfiddich, or Glenlivet

Im a big fan of Highland Park, just havent had it in a while

[Kevin]

Balvenie
Glenfiddich
Glenlivet

Your choice of drinks are Fantasy book dwarves????

[epo]

Balvenie
Glenfiddich
Glenlivet

A Talisker is also a refreshing choice.

[Bossanova]

A Talisker is also a refreshing choice.

Yes it is! And by the way, welcome PD to the higher class of people

[disneyspy]

Yes it is! And by the way, welcome PD to the higher class of people

wait til you guys move up to golf talk

[Bossanova]

wait til you guys move up to golf talk

Is that wen you become a member?

[Bossanova]

Did I just read that the Reds only have 3 outfielders on their roster?

[epo]

wait til you guys move up to golf talk

I'll guarantee you one thing, we won't go near a public course. Fucking savages.

[K.C.]

He's not a cleanup hitter. He's not a #3 hitter. He's an amazing #2 or #5 hitter. I'd go with the former. And win a shitload of baseball games.

Interesting how you chose to post batting average as your trump card and complete ignored his various clutch OPS numbers and his OPS in the various hitting with men on base scenarios.

Hmm.

How did I ignore his OPS numbers? I said that's what gives the guy any consideration as a good player.

I fully acknowledge the OPS numbers. But that's not his primary job.

In 2008:
47 games batting 4th
83 games batting 5th

2007:
24 games batting 4th
86 games batting 5th

2006:
50 games batting 4th
53 games batting 5th


The guy has been a a 4th or 5th hitter most of the time in the last three years with the Reds.

Unless they're just pitching around you EVERY time, you can't take as many walks as he does with RISP. And the scouting reports on Dunn have always said he takes too many quality hitter's pitches.

Very few teams have legitimately good 6th and 7th hole hitters to knock in those runs.

So in that role, the average and power numbers matter immensely, and he's been horrific.

If you're telling me a team is signing Dunn with the intention of making him a #2 hitter, I'm intrigued at the prospect, and would give it a lot of consideration because of his OPS.

I'd be a little worried about having such a lack of speed at the top of my lineup, but I'd be interested in the possibility of it.

But I would never sign this guy to a big deal to be a cornerstone of the middle of my lineup. His clutch numbers are abysmal, and his approach at the plate is not conducive to changing those numbers around anytime soon.

[SuperKarateMonkeyDeathFez]

How did I ignore his OPS numbers? I said that's what gives the guy any consideration as a good player.

But when you tried to breakdown his "clutch" stats to downplay him, you totally left out his OPS numbers in those situations, which are all good to great.

I fully acknowledge the OPS numbers. But that's not his primary job.

In 2008:
47 games batting 4th
83 games batting 5th

2007:
24 games batting 4th
86 games batting 5th

2006:
50 games batting 4th
53 games batting 5th


The guy has been a a 4th or 5th hitter most of the time in the last three years with the Reds.

He can't decide where he hits. How is it his fault if his managers haven't had the sense to use him where he's most useful?

Unless they're just pitching around you EVERY time, you can't take as many walks as he does with RISP. And the scouting reports on Dunn have always said he takes too many quality hitter's pitches.

Very few teams have legitimately good 6th and 7th hole hitters to knock in those runs.

So in that role, the average and power numbers matter immensely, and he's been horrific.

If you're telling me a team is signing Dunn with the intention of making him a #2 hitter, I'm intrigued at the prospect, and would give it a lot of consideration because of his OPS.

I'd be a little worried about having such a lack of speed at the top of my lineup, but I'd be interested in the possibility of it.

But I would never sign this guy to a big deal to be a cornerstone of the middle of my lineup. His clutch numbers are abysmal, and his approach at the plate is not conducive to changing those numbers around anytime soon.

Nobody should sign him to be a #3 or #4 hitter, but his clutch numbers are not abysmal. His clutch AVERAGES are abysmal, but his clutch OPS is very good...but thankfully, we're wise baseball fans here that don't hinge a player's worth on something as subjective as "clutch."

Besides, like I said and as you seem to be catching on to, he'd be an awesome #2 hitter. Speed is overrated in that slot. He gets on base a ton, plus he's got a ton of pop, so he's going to be moving that leadoff hitter over a LOT, and will set up a buttload of RBI opportunities for the #3-4 hitters. He's wasted further down in the lineup. I think he's supremely underrated because too many people want him to be a middle of the order hitter and he's not. Use him right and he's a devastating threat.

[PD]

A Talisker is also a refreshing choice.

Yes it is! And by the way, welcome PD to the higher class of people
Talisker is nice, and thanks Bossanova.

I need to try laphroaig;
some really like it, but I hear it is "peaty"

and epo-
is Bethpage Black on that "savage" list?


side note:

I Like Joel Sherman filling in for Rob Dibble on XM175

[K.C.]

But when you tried to breakdown his "clutch" stats to downplay him, you totally left out his OPS numbers in those situations, which are all good to great.



He can't decide where he hits. How is it his fault if his managers haven't had the sense to use him where he's most useful?



Nobody should sign him to be a #3 or #4 hitter, but his clutch numbers are not abysmal. His clutch AVERAGES are abysmal, but his clutch OPS is very good...but thankfully, we're wise baseball fans here that don't hinge a player's worth on something as subjective as "clutch."

Besides, like I said and as you seem to be catching on to, he'd be an awesome #2 hitter. Speed is overrated in that slot. He gets on base a ton, plus he's got a ton of pop, so he's going to be moving that leadoff hitter over a LOT, and will set up a buttload of RBI opportunities for the #3-4 hitters. He's wasted further down in the lineup. I think he's supremely underrated because too many people want him to be a middle of the order hitter and he's not. Use him right and he's a devastating threat.

OPS means less than average with RISP, when you hit in the middle of the lineup.

I don't think there's really any way to dispute that.

A hit scores a run w/ RISP most of the time...a walk, most of the time, does not. I guess having a good OPS with a shitty average is better than having a bad OPS with a shitty average, but that's about as far as it goes when you're talking about a #5 w/ RISP

Again, it's all about the role he was in.

So when you're passing the buck to your #6 and #7 hitters most of the time, that's problematic.

And again, if it was a case of them pitching around him all the time, I'd be fine with it. But it's not.


Now, as far as him being a #2 hitter goes....you believe speed is overrated. I say it depends.

But the one caveat I'd have about signing him to hit #2 is that it will take 3 total bases from the guys behind him to score him most of the time, whereas it usually would take 2 total bases with a prototypical #2 hitter.

Dunn won't go first to third...he won't score from 1st on a double.

That said, the OPS may outweigh that factor.

But there are concerns.

[SuperKarateMonkeyDeathFez]

OPS means less than average with RISP, when you hit in the middle of the lineup.

I don't think there's really any way to dispute that.

A hit scores a run w/ RISP most of the time...a walk, most of the time, does not. I guess having a good OPS with a shitty average is better than having a bad OPS with a shitty average, but that's about as far as it goes when you're talking about a #5 w/ RISP

But OPS isn't just OBP. You're just talking about the walks, but look at the slugging. I'm not saying his OPS suddenly makes him Mr. Clutch, but it makes the issue much more complicated than what you tossed out.

Again, it's all about the role he was in.

So when you're passing the buck to you #6 and #7 hitters most of the time, that's problematic.

And again, if it was a case of them pitching around him all the time, I'd be fine with it. But it's not.

And again, Dunn doesn't make the lineup.

Now, as far as him being a #2 hitter goes....you believe speed is overrated. I say it depends.

But the one caveat I'd have about signing him to hit #2 is that it will take 3 total bases from the guys behind him to score him most of the time, whereas it usually would take 2 total bases with a prototypical #2 hitter.

Dunn won't go first to third...he won't score from 1st on a double.

That said, the OPS may outweigh that factor.

But there are concerns.

Sure, but you could then argue that the around 40 HR's he hits a year makes up for and then some any of the runs hypothetically "lost" by his speed. It's mainly a matter of getting him on a team that has a solid or better #3-#5 and batting him in front of those guys. Christ, I'd kill to do that on the Cubs. It pains me that they're likely not even looking at him.

[K.C.]

But OPS isn't just OBP. You're just talking about the walks, but look at the slugging. I'm not saying his OPS suddenly makes him Mr. Clutch, but it makes the issue much more complicated than what you tossed out.


Understood, but it hasn't translated to production in terms of the raw runs and RBI numbers. When he does actually hit, the slugging is great.

Emphasis on the when

I'd be kind of curious to look at the RISP numbers of #6 hitters on the Reds.


And again, Dunn doesn't make the lineup.


But it is up to him to adjust to where his manager does put him. And he hasn't done a particularly good job of it. That's part of why you will hear little tidbits of General Managers questioning his work ethic (and the occasional J.P. Riccardi outright statement of it).


Sure, but you could then argue that the around 40 HR's he hits a year makes up for and then some any of the runs hypothetically "lost" by his speed. It's mainly a matter of getting him on a team that has a solid or better #3-#5 and batting him in front of those guys. Christ, I'd kill to do that on the Cubs. It pains me that they're likely not even looking at him.

This is where we can agree. On a team like the Cubs, he would be a great fit hitting #2 behind a solid 3-5.

He wouldn't be a good fit for a team like the Nationals or Orioles (both teams that are rumored to be looking at him).

And in that respect, I would sum up Dunn as a guy who has the potential to be a VERY good complimentary piece, but a very frustrating 'franchise' type player if cast in that role.

Contract wise, he should command anywhere from 3yrs for 30 mil to 3 yrs for 36 mil as a fair market price.

Anything more is an overbid.

[brettmojo]

And in baseball news the Cubs have signed OF Joey Gathright.

Why?

They wanted to sign somebody before the Yankees signed everybody.

I believe evn if they sign Manny that their payroll would still actually be less than it was last year. It definitely is well below it right now. Why are people griping about them spending when they're actually spending less?
Because people hate other people who have money. Same thing in baseball. Everyone who isn't a Yankee fan hates the Yankees because they have money, and they spend it. The funny thing is almost every other team in baseball could probably easily expand their payrolls twice what the already spend but the owners don't want to spend money. Baseball basically rewrote the luxury tax rule to punish the Yankees for their spending effective 2003 and since then the Yankees have forked over more than 126 million dollars and that's only up to 2007. What happens to this money? As I understand it it's supposed to go to the "less fortunate teams" or small market clubs so they can afford to spend more and be more competitive. They're not spending more. Apparently the Marlins, Orioles, Devil Rays, Pirates, Nationals, Royals, Twins etc. etc. aren't getting their redistribution checks. Is it getting lost in the fucking mail?

Then I have to hear a bunch of ham n' eggers bitch because their team can't afford to keep their star players and they blame the Yankees for that shit? Give me a break.

[epo]

side note:

I Like Joel Sherman filling in for Rob Dibble on XM175

Side note is right. The original topic of the thread is always secondary to whatever gentlemen such as PD, Bossanova and myself would like to discuss.

[HBox]

Adam Dunn has been 15th, 16th, 20th, 7th and 9th in runs created in the NL the last 5 years.

[K.C.]

Adam Dunn has been 15th, 16th, 20th, 7th and 9th in runs created in the NL the last 5 years.

I hate this stat. Its value suggests where a guy may be better suited in the lineup (i.e. Dunn as a #2 hitter), but it's over-inflates, as most Jamesian stats do, the meaning of OPS.

And this is where I fundamentally disagree with all Jamesian disciples, because they will claim OPS as the greatest measure of a player.

And that's just way too simplistic. OPS comparisons have their place and their value, and I'm not saying it's not a meaningful stat (because that would be crazy).

But I think people are way too blind to otherstats, and the meaning of different roles on different teams (which can be explained through a multitude of stats), in lieu of OPS and OPS fueled stats.

[IMSlacker]

I'd just like to point out that people don't hate the Yankees because they out-spend everyone else. They hate the Yankees because, by and large, their fans are assholes. Same deal with the Cowboys.

[SuperKarateMonkeyDeathFez]

Understood, but it hasn't translated to production in terms of the raw runs and RBI numbers. When he does actually hit, the slugging is great.

Emphasis on the when

Right, but I'm talking about his slugging and OBP specifically in the situations you mentioned, not just in general. Again, doesn't suddenly make him a great clutch player, but I think significantly different than what you seemed to be trying to argue.

I'd be kind of curious to look at the RISP numbers of #6 hitters on the Reds.

He also hasn't benefited from being on a pretty shitty team (the Reds) with terrible managers making awful lineups. The Reds have young talent he played with before going to Arizona...but he also had Baker making the lineups. Pitchers really had a ton of incentive to pitch around him. Like you said, that doesn't explain away everything, but it is pretty key.

But it is up to him to adjust to where his manager does put him. And he hasn't done a particularly good job of it. That's part of why you will hear little tidbits of General Managers questioning his work ethic (and the occasional J.P. Riccardi outright statement of it).

There's only so much a player can do. I think he's a support player and not a star...the guys slamming him like that expect him to be a marquee name you can build a team around. He's not that. A player who simply is not a #3-4 hitter is not going to be able to just adjust to being able to fill such critical and typically superstar roles.

This is where we can agree. On a team like the Cubs, he would be a great fit hitting #2 behind a solid 3-5.

He wouldn't be a good fit for a team like the Nationals or Orioles (both teams that are rumored to be looking at him).

And in that respect, I would sum up Dunn as a guy who has the potential to be a VERY good complimentary piece, but a very frustrating 'franchise' type player if cast in that role.

Contract wise, he should command anywhere from 3yrs for 30 mil to 3 yrs for 36 mil as a fair market price.

Anything more is an overbid.

Agreed on the contract. He's a part of a greater plan, and should be paid as such. Anyone who insists on wanting him as a franchise player, well, that's their problem. That would be like wanting Kevin Youkilis to be a franchise player. Not saying they're the same, but the perception of Youkilis, by and large, is what Dunn SHOULD be seen as.

[epo]

Because people hate other people who have money. Same thing in baseball. Everyone who isn't a Yankee fan hates the Yankees because they have money, and they spend it. The funny thing is almost every other team in baseball could probably easily expand their payrolls twice what the already spend but the owners don't want to spend money. Baseball basically rewrote the luxury tax rule to punish the Yankees for their spending effective 2003 and since then the Yankees have forked over more than 126 million dollars and that's only up to 2007. What happens to this money? As I understand it it's supposed to go to the "less fortunate teams" or small market clubs so they can afford to spend more and be more competitive. They're not spending more. Apparently the Marlins, Orioles, Devil Rays, Pirates, Nationals, Royals, Twins etc. etc. aren't getting their redistribution checks. Is it getting lost in the fucking mail?

Then I have to hear a bunch of ham n' eggers bitch because their team can't afford to keep their star players and they blame the Yankees for that shit? Give me a break.

Blah, blah, blah. Nobody realistically hates the Yankees for being rich, they hate the Yankees organization for being assholes about it. Case in point:

Mike Cameron.

Let's review this situation. The Yankees want Cameron to upgrade their CF position, to serve as a 1-year stopgap for Austin Jackson & to be CC's boyfriend in NYC. Which is all fine as they and Milwaukee enter into negotations with Milwaukee to acquire him. In principle a deal is agreed to with Cameron for Melky Cabrera, a disappointing Yankee prospect.

The only hang up, the Yankees want Milwaukee to pay part of Cameron's salary.

Let me repeat that...the Yankees want Milwaukee to pay part of Cameron's salary despite having outbid Milwaukee for Sabathia by $61 million. Let's just that Brian Cashman was being an asshole. Not shockingly enough, Brewers GM Doug Melvin killed the deal. (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/35975189.html)

Now, Cashman's bluff has been called but a new wrinkle comes up: the Brewers ask for a pitching prospect in the deal. They are essentially giving away Cameron to create the payroll flexibility to sign a pitcher or two. So the Yankees offer Milwaukee Kei Igawa, who has been a colossal disaster in NY. (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/36138289.html)

But here is Cashman's new kicker: he thinks Cameron is overpaid (http://www.fannation.com/si_blogs/hot_stove/posts/32807) and wants Milwaukee to pick up a majority of the tab on Igawa's ridiculous contract. That's right...after spending $250million in guaranteed money to two pitchers, Brian Cashman wants the Milwaukee Brewers to pay the tab for his awful acquisition of Kei Igawa.

You wanna know why many people look at the Yankees and hate them? Its not because they are beautiful, its because their organization comes off like arrogant assholes.

[sailor]

The only hang up, the Yankees want Milwaukee to pay part of Cameron's salary.


But here is Cashman's new kicker: he thinks Cameron is overpaid and wants Milwaukee to pick up a majority of the tab on Igawa's ridiculous contract. That's right...after spending $250million in guaranteed money to two pitchers, Brian Cashman wants the Milwaukee Brewers to pay the tab for his awful acquisition of Kei Igawa.

so first, the yankees are bad for wanting the brewers to pay part of the salary the yankees are getting. in the second case the yankees are "assholes" for wanting the brewers to pay for a player going to the brewers? crazy.

and if the player is over-paid, what does it matter what the yankees are paying other players or how much money they have? they don't have a right to ever be critical of any player's salary? like if you make sabathia type money and walk into a mcdonald's and they tell you a value meal will cost you $50 you just have to sit there and take it? if they don't like the deal they should just walk away. no one's forcing them to make trades on terms unfavorable to them.

[epo]

so first, the yankees are bad for wanting the brewers to pay part of the salary the yankees are getting. in the second case the yankees are "assholes" for wanting the brewers to pay for a player going to the brewers? crazy.

and if the player is over-paid, what does it matter what the yankees are paying other players or how much money they have? they don't have a right to ever be critical of any player's salary? like if you make sabathia type money and walk into a mcdonald's and they tell you a value meal will cost you $50 you just have to sit there and take it? if they don't like the deal they should just walk away. no one's forcing them to make trades on terms unfavorable to them.

Herein lies my point: by the numbers, Cameron is worth $10million. By no measure is Igawa worth league minimum.

[sailor]

Herein lies my point: by the numbers, Cameron is worth $10million. By no measure is Igawa worth league minimum.

again, no one is making them trade. you have to assume they will make the move that's right for their organization. unless they're the bucs.

[epo]

again, no one is making them trade. you have to assume they will make the move that's right for their organization. unless they're the bucs.

I get it...maybe the Yankees just don't like the deal. I was just trying to explain to BrettMojo why some of the nation might really hate the Yankees.

[PD]

Because people hate other people who have money. Same thing in baseball. Everyone who isn't a Yankee fan hates the Yankees because they have money, and they spend it.

People hate the Yankees because of the sense of entitlement, the sense of "hurray for me and screw you"

The Yankees have every right to spend what they want, but you don't get to be beloved by the world for doing it.

Having said all of that, Joel Sherman had an interesting thought on this- how in a weird way, it helps some small market teams.
Players typically have their best years from 22-30, and go start to decline then. The small market team - like the A's, have to trade players like Giambi - and so they get the good years, and not the over paid years.

Of course that only works when you scout like the A's, and not like Pirates.

[K.C.]

People hate the Yankees because of the sense of entitlement, the sense of "hurray for me and screw you"

The Yankees have every right to spend what they want, but you don't get to be beloved by the world for doing it.

Having said all of that, Joel Sherman had an interesting thought on this- how in a weird way, it helps some small market teams.
Players typically have their best years from 22-30, and go start to decline then. The small market team - like the A's, have to trade players like Giambi - and so they get the good years, and not the over paid years.

Of course that only works when you scout like the A's, and not like Pirates.

Entitlement's a good word, but I think people are more annoyed by the entitlement of Yankee fans, than the ownership.

That and the ridiculous amount of national coverage always pisses off fans everywhere else.

They've made a joke of it now, on PTI, about talking about Yankees/Red Sox so much, but the truth is that people are sick of guys like Kornheiser, or Peter Gammons, and a lot of those national voices talking endlessly about them.

And then factor that the media openly routes for those teams to win -- this was on display more evident than ever this year when FOX was pretty much praying on-air for Red Sox / Dodgers.

The coverage of this past postseason was embarrassing. They could not get Manny vs. the Red Sox out of their heads, and as a result, the national media completely mailed in their coverage of the World Series.

People have always loathed the Yankees, but the Red Sox are entering that realm, too.



AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MONEY! That's a typical Yankee fan cop-out response (Not talking to you, PD...know you're a Mets fan).

[cougarjake13]

People have always loathed the Yankees, but the Red Sox are entering that realm, too.




yeh i think its b/c they finally won a few titles and they're fans are becoming like yankees fans in terms of arrogance and entitlement

[K.C.]

yeh i think its b/c they finally won a few titles and they're fans are becoming like yankees fans in terms of arrogance and entitlement

Has to do with the media treatment of them, too, though.

That's a very big component.

[IMSlacker]

ESPN is the worst. This season, when they skipped the bottom of the 8th during a tied Cubs/Dodgers game to give us a update on Joba, I nearly lost my shit.

[PD]

Entitlement's a good word, but I think people are more annoyed by the entitlement of Yankee fans, than the ownership.
.

you are 100% correct; even though people are annoyed at the ownership at times, it's the fans. I grew up where I didn't hate the Yankees- they weren't the Mets rivals since they were in the other league. I have an Uncle who is a big time Yankee fan, but also wishes my team well. His son (my cousin) is a different story - a typical 25-30 yr old Yankee fan who always thinks his team should be an all star team. I disregard any Yankee fan who doesn't know about Jack Clark or Randy Velarde. (of course if they know about Horace Clarke (http://home.nyc.rr.com/vibaseball/clarke.html)they get a free pass)

If you listen to sports radio in NY it's truly amazing how many times you'll hear awful trade proposals, or assume that the top Free Agents would be idiots not to sign with the Yankees. The media A-Rod fascination has just put this over the top.

As for the Sox, you are also right that it used to be cute to hear about "Red Sox Nation"- since they won it's getting media over kill as well.

[foodcourtdruide]

you are 100% correct; even though people are annoyed at the ownership at times, it's the fans. I grew up where I didn't hate the Yankees- they weren't the Mets rivals since they were in the other league. I have an Uncle who is a big time Yankee fan, but also wishes my team well. His son (my cousin) is a different story - a typical 25-30 yr old Yankee fan who always thinks his team should be an all star team. I disregard any Yankee fan who doesn't know about Jack Clark or Randy Velarde. (of course if they know about Horace Clarke (http://home.nyc.rr.com/vibaseball/clarke.html)they get a free pass)

If you listen to sports radio in NY it's truly amazing how many times you'll hear awful trade proposals, or assume that the top Free Agents would be idiots not to sign with the Yankees. The media A-Rod fascination has just put this over the top.

As for the Sox, you are also right that it used to be cute to hear about "Red Sox Nation"- since they won it's getting media over kill as well.

The thing that annoys me is the idea that the Yankees are a magical team. I also find it amusing that they are somehow insulted when players don't sign with their team.

[epo]

The latest in the Cameron/Cabrera soap opera:

Do Yankees prefer Manny? (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/36296959.html)

There are many possible explanations for why the Yankees backed off talks with the Brewers for a trade of centerfielders Mike Cameron and Melky Cabrera, with or without Kei Igawa included. Many of those explanations have been put forward in previous blogs.

But here's a new twist -- a report that the Yankees might focus instead on Manny Ramirez.

Under that scenario, Ramirez would move into left field and Johnny Damon would switch back to center, eliminating the need for Cameron. As Brewers assistant GM Gord Ash told me yesterday, the Brewers can't wait forever to make this deal. They have things they need to get done, particularly with pitching.

Here is the thing, Cashman needs to shit or get off the pot. And from the Milwaukee perspective, they need to hang up the phone. They are wasting value time in signing free agents/making deals to improve their pitching staff.

I'd like to thank Brian Cashman for wasting Doug Melvin's time for the past week. I hope Cashman has a shitty Christmas and spends plenty of time fucking himself over the New Year holiday.

[foodcourtdruide]

The latest in the Cameron/Cabrera soap opera:

Do Yankees prefer Manny? (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/36296959.html)



Here is the thing, Cashman needs to shit or get off the pot. And from the Milwaukee perspective, they need to hang up the phone. They are wasting value time in signing free agents/making deals to improve their pitching staff.

I'd like to thank Brian Cashman for wasting Doug Melvin's time for the past week. I hope Cashman has a shitty Christmas and spends plenty of time fucking himself over the New Year holiday.

Manny in left and Damon in center? That would be the worst defensive outfield in the history of baseball.

[midwestjeff]

Manny in left and Damon in center? That would be the worst defensive outfield in the history of baseball.

Doesn't matter.

Their zillion dollar pitching staff won't be allowing any balls to leave the infield.

[foodcourtdruide]

Doesn't matter.

Their zillion dollar pitching staff won't be allowing any balls to leave the infield.

lol, this team seriously reminds me of early-90's Mets more and more every day. Is Vince Coleman available?

[HBox]

The latest in the Cameron/Cabrera soap opera:

Do Yankees prefer Manny? (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/36296959.html)



Here is the thing, Cashman needs to shit or get off the pot. And from the Milwaukee perspective, they need to hang up the phone. They are wasting value time in signing free agents/making deals to improve their pitching staff.

I'd like to thank Brian Cashman for wasting Doug Melvin's time for the past week. I hope Cashman has a shitty Christmas and spends plenty of time fucking himself over the New Year holiday.

Don't take some random speculative article from a sportswriter in the middle of December as proof of anything. They have space to fill even though nothing is going on and probably a desperate, power-less ego maniacal asshat like Hank Steinbrenner in their ear who can't stand that his brother is in charge and the GM isn't listening. It's doesn't mean anything.

And for someone who acts as if Yankee fans are entitled, you are acting quite entitled yourself. As if when other teams enter into trade negotiations and are trying to get as much as they can in return it's an affront to your team. And if nothing comes out of it it's a waste of your team's time and your team's time alone.

Unless you are just trying to piss of Kevin again. I can't even tell anymore.

[HBox]

lol, this team seriously reminds me of early-90's Mets more and more every day. Is Vince Coleman available?

This assumes the Mets have changed at all since the early-90s.

[foodcourtdruide]

This assumes the Mets have changed at all since the early-90s.

Lol, oh come on. We've had a couple really good seasons since then. I'd be interested to see how they do this year. I think a lot of it will rest with Delgado.

If the Mets had the bullpen they built this offseason last year, do you think they would have made the playoffs? I think so. However, it would be insane to think Delgado can repeat the season he had last year and that would cause a serious hole in the line-up.

[spadanko]

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ti-furcaldodgers121708&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

At the end of a couple of curious days, during which Rafael Furcal reportedly agreed to sign with the Atlanta Braves, then resumed negotiations with the Los Angeles Dodgers (depending on one's perspective), the free-agent shortstop was nearing an agreement Wednesday morning to return to the Dodgers.

According to sources familiar with the negotiations, talks between team owner Frank McCourt, general manager Ned Colletti and agent Arn Tellem progressed to the point both sides believed a deal would be struck.

The Dodgers' offer had been at two years with an option for a third. They improved their original offer in the last 24 hours, according to a source, though it is unknown if they guaranteed the third year or increased the contract's average annual value.

In Atlanta, Braves officials who were so optimistic they had acquired Furcal (who began his career in Atlanta) on Tuesday for three years and $30 million were resigned to perhaps losing the bidding to the Dodgers on Wednesday. They could, of course, re-enter negotiations with a counter offer.

Agent Paul Kinzer, who works with Tellem, had said Monday he expected Furcal to choose Tuesday between the Dodgers, Athletics, Royals and a fourth team, which turned out to be the Braves. Later Monday, he revealed to at least one of the other teams that Furcal had chosen the Braves, whose offer included a vesting fourth-year option. Clearly, the A's (who bid the highest for Furcal) and Royals would have had to overwhelm Furcal in term or annual salary to have signed him.

Braves management, sources said Tuesday, believed they had a "gentlemen's agreement" with Furcal, and that he would submit to a physical on Wednesday.

Braves media relations director Brad Hainje said the club would make no announcement regarding Furcal on Tuesday, did not know if one would come Wednesday, and that he could not confirm an agreement, formal or implied.

Meantime, Colletti said at 9 a.m. PT on Wednesday that the Dodgers were still in on Furcal, who after the season expressed a desire to return to the Dodgers, who whom he played the last three years at $13 million a year.

[Kevin]

This assumes the Mets have changed at all since the early-90s.

Seriously, the Met fans act as if they have spent no money on FA and trades these years.

Delgado
Santana
Beltran
Castillio
Wagner
Krod
Alou

numerous other latin failures Omar has gotten.

The only two real players that are home grown have been wright and Reyes.

[foodcourtdruide]

Seriously, the Met fans act as if they have spent no money on FA and trades these years.

Delgado
Santana
Beltran
Castillio
Wagner
Krod
Alou

numerous other latin failures Omar has gotten.

The only two real players that are home grown have been wright and Reyes.

I'm sorry, did I miss something? Which Mets fan is acting like that?

[Kevin]

I'm sorry, did I miss something? Which Mets fan is acting like that?

I'm just saying some fans its like the pot calling the kettle black when it comes to the Yankees.

[foodcourtdruide]

I'm just saying some fans its like the pot calling the kettle black when it comes to the Yankees.

The Yankees are the most excessive spenders in baseball. What's wrong with pointing that out? I think a Rays fans complaint about the Mets payroll is like a Mets fans complaints about the Yankees payroll. And they are both completely valid. It gives teams an advantage that is complete bullshit and hurts baseball in smaller cities. I'm a Mets fan, and I take that responsibility, why can't Yankees fans?

[Snoogans]

The Yankees are the most excessive spenders in baseball. What's wrong with pointing that out? I think a Rays fans complaint about the Mets payroll is like a Mets fans complaints about the Yankees payroll. And they are both completely valid. It gives teams an advantage that is complete bullshit and hurts baseball in smaller cities. I'm a Mets fan, and I take that responsibility, why can't Yankees fans?

as much as I agree that the yankees spend alot more then anyone else, this bolded statement is completely insane. COMPLETELY. Mets had the second highest payroll in the league regardless of what the yankees had. The Rays payroll was like 45 mill. Its not even a comparison

[foodcourtdruide]

as much as I agree that the yankees spend alot more then anyone else, this bolded statement is completely insane. COMPLETELY. Mets had the second highest payroll in the league regardless of what the yankees had. The Rays payroll was like 45 mill. Its not even a comparison

Ugh, you get the point.

Yankees payroll: $201,001,579
Mets payroll: $138,685,197
Difference: $62,316,382

Mets payroll: $138,685,197
Rays payroll: $43,820,598
Difference: 94,864,599

Ok, bad example, a better example would be:

Mets payroll: $138,685,197
Giants payroll: $76,904,500
Difference: $61,780,697

So, I'd like to retract my statement to the following:

I think a Giants fans complaint about the Mets payroll is like a Mets fans complaints about the Yankees payroll. AND BOTH ARE STILL VALID, THANK YOU SNOOGANS LARRY LITERAL.

[Snoogans]

Ugh, you get the point.

Yankees payroll: $201,001,579
Mets payroll: $138,685,197
Difference: $62,316,382

Mets payroll: $138,685,197
Rays payroll: $43,820,598
Difference: 94,864,599

Ok, bad example, a better example would be:

Mets payroll: $138,685,197
Giants payroll: $76,904,500
Difference: $61,780,697

So, I'd like to retract my statement to the following:

I think a Giants fans complaint about the Mets payroll is like a Mets fans complaints about the Yankees payroll. AND BOTH ARE STILL VALID, THANK YOU SNOOGANS LARRY LITERAL.

again not accurate. You just cant compare it straight up like its the same. First of all, the mets are still closer to double the giants then the yankees are to double the mets, by %. And Once you get over 100 million, you have a HUGE advantage over the teams with less. But after awhile, its diminishing returns. The yankees dont benefit over the mets as much as the mets would benefit over a team with even an 80 million dollar payroll. After about 125 million most of the money is just wasted anyway. And dont act like the mets couldnt afford to spend 200 mill cause they could. Those other teams plain CANT

[razorboy]

Rocco Baldelli's mitochondrial disorder was a misdiagnosis, he's hopeful about his career with new treatment.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/dec/17/report-rays-rocco-baldelli-misdiagnosed/sports/

[foodcourtdruide]

again not accurate. You just cant compare it straight up like its the same. First of all, the mets are still closer to double the giants then the yankees are to double the mets, by %. And Once you get over 100 million, you have a HUGE advantage over the teams with less. But after awhile, its diminishing returns. The yankees dont benefit over the mets as much as the mets would benefit over a team with even an 80 million dollar payroll. After about 125 million most of the money is just wasted anyway. And dont act like the mets couldnt afford to spend 200 mill cause they could. Those other teams plain CANT

Both teams have an additional $60 million to play with. That's a finite number of additional players. Why does % matter?

Also, whether or not the Mets could afford to spend more is a separate argument. I'm talking about how much salary disparity hurts baseball, and how both the Yankees and Mets contribute to that.

[Snoogans]

Both teams have an additional $60 million to play with. That's a finite number of additional players. Why does % matter?

Also, whether or not the Mets could afford to spend more is a separate argument. I'm talking about how much salary disparity hurts baseball, and how both the Yankees and Mets contribute to that.

it matters cause you are arguing its the same, and the teams cant compete. % does matter. if you spend double a team, thats worse then spending 27% more. it just matters.

Also, yes salary disparity hurts baseball. but you cant possibly act like ANYTHING is unfair to the mets. Thats what you are incredibly wrong about. The Yankees spending 200 mill is not that big an advantage over the mets 135 then the mets 135 would be over a team that CANT AFFORD to go to 100 million. The mets, the sox, detroit, LA, the yankees, they can all make up for shit. As much as I hate the Yankees, and as much as they started all the spending that teams that can are following now, i cant see a Mets fan go after a Yankee fan for spending more then the mets and compare it to some small market team. its just insane.

[foodcourtdruide]

it matters cause you are arguing its the same, and the teams cant compete. % does matter. if you spend double a team, thats worse then spending 27% more. it just matters.

Also, yes salary disparity hurts baseball. but you cant possibly act like ANYTHING is unfair to the mets. Thats what you are incredibly wrong about. The Yankees spending 200 mill is not that big an advantage over the mets 135 then the mets 135 would be over a team that CANT AFFORD to go to 100 million. The mets, the sox, detroit, LA, the yankees, they can all make up for shit. As much as I hate the Yankees, and as much as they started all the spending that teams that can are following now, i cant see a Mets fan go after a Yankee fan for spending more then the mets and compare it to some small market team. its just insane.

This is a really weird argument, because I think I'm totally lucky to be a Mets fan and I think we are PART of the problem, but I'm arguing from the other side.

BUT, I see your point now and I have to think about. I'd argue that $60 million is simply $60 million, however you're saying you receive diminishing returns on your investment over x amount, so the difference isn't that huge between the Mets and Yankees, however it is huge between the Giants and Mets.

[Snoogans]

This is a really weird argument, because I think I'm totally lucky to be a Mets fan and I think we are PART of the problem, but I'm arguing from the other side.

BUT, I see your point now and I have to think about. I'd argue that $60 million is simply $60 million, however you're saying you receive diminishing returns on your investment over x amount, so the difference isn't so much between the Mets and Yankees, however it is between the Giants and Mets.

basically exactly. Once you have 125 mill to sign 25 guys, its just a matter of you not being stupid. When you only have 75 or 80 million for those 25 players, you have to be extra smart to compete with the 125 millers. Where as chances are the 60 extra mill the yankees spend was to cover up mistakes and the like, not really make the team 60 million dollars better

[foodcourtdruide]

basically exactly. Once you have 125 mill to sign 25 guys, its just a matter of you not being stupid. When you only have 75 or 80 million for those 25 players, you have to be extra smart to compete with the 125 millers. Where as chances are the 60 extra mill the yankees spend was to cover up mistakes and the like, not really make the team 60 million dollars better

But the Yankees have the ability to completely write-off MORE terrible signings and that is a big advantage. For example, don't you think the Pavano signing would have hurt the Mets a lot more than it hurt the Yankees?

[Snoogans]

But the Yankees have the ability to completely write-off MORE terrible signings and that is a big advantage. For example, don't you think the Pavano signing would have hurt the Mets a lot more than it hurt the Yankees?

to a point but, if you break it down, its also money that isnt helping them on the field persay. Maybe the payroll of the mets is 135 and 120 of it is on the field. And maybe the yankees payroll is 200 mill but 130 of it is on the field.

And as for that, no i dont. Cause the mets made themselves a bunch of terrible signings. So have the sox, Detroit, tons of teams. Its not only the yankees. you didnt seem to have a problem eating the last 10 mill of wagner while he is hurt and giving 12 mill a year to another closer, meaning technically, you are spending 22 million this year on 1 guy

[foodcourtdruide]

to a point but, if you break it down, its also money that isnt helping them on the field persay. Maybe the payroll of the mets is 135 and 120 of it is on the field. And maybe the yankees payroll is 200 mill but 130 of it is on the field.

And as for that, no i dont. Cause the mets made themselves a bunch of terrible signings. So have the sox, Detroit, tons of teams. Its not only the yankees. you didnt seem to have a problem eating the last 10 mill of wagner while he is hurt and giving 12 mill a year to another closer, meaning technically, you are spending 22 million this year on 1 guy

Wouldn't insurance have taken care of the Wagner contract?

[PD]

But the Yankees have the ability to completely write-off MORE terrible signings and that is a big advantage. For example, don't you think the Pavano signing would have hurt the Mets a lot more than it hurt the Yankees?

while I don't really at Yankee money spent, it is SIGNIFICANTLY more than everyone else.
that however is within the rules, so that's fine.

If anything I'd be more pissed at my team if they didn't spend competitively.
You would think the Dodgers for example could have made CC a competitive offer

[PD]

Wouldn't insurance have taken care of the Wagner contract?

can't insure the 4th year; thats why Mets got screwed, and they made a stand with K-Rod at 3 yr base (4th is vesting)

[Snoogans]

Wouldn't insurance have taken care of the Wagner contract?

it all depends on things no one would officially know about the deal and wagner's past issues and whatever. But you get the point. Technically if thats the case, it would have done the same for Pavano's

[foodcourtdruide]

can't insure the 4th year; thats why Mets got screwed, and they made a stand with K-Rod at 3 yr base (4th is vesting)

Wow! I didn't know that. You can't insure the 4th year on a contract?

[foodcourtdruide]

while I don't really at Yankee money spent, it is SIGNIFICANTLY more than everyone else.
that however is within the rules, so that's fine.

If anything I'd be more pissed at my team if they didn't spend competitively.
You would think the Dodgers for example could have made CC a competitive offer

But how do we know that the Dodgers could afford it? I always hear statements like "this team could afford x" or "x owner is just cheap", but how do we know that?

[Snoogans]

But how do we know that the Dodgers could afford it? I always hear statements like "this team could afford x" or "x owner is just cheap", but how do we know that?

because of revenue sharings and luxury taxes, all the incomes of the owners and what they spend is public record. I dont know if its cause the law exemptions they get by using a CBA, but all that shit is pretty public and most of their non team ventures are large enough corps and shit that its all public records to see how much money they all make

[foodcourtdruide]

because of revenue sharings and luxury taxes, all the incomes of the owners and what they spend is public record. I dont know if its cause the law exemptions they get by using a CBA, but all that shit is pretty public and most of their non team ventures are large enough corps and shit that its all public records to see how much money they all make

I tried googling team revenues and couldn't come up with anything. Maybe I suck at googling? What do you mean "non-team ventures"?

[Snoogans]

I tried googling team revenues and couldn't come up with anything. Maybe I suck at googling? What do you mean "non-team ventures"?

no one has money to buy a team without having serious business interests aside from the team itself.

And by public record i mean you can go somewhere and look the shit up. i dont know how prevalent it would be on the internet, but any decent sports journalist can find that all out pretty easy

[foodcourtdruide]

no one has money to buy a team without having serious business interests aside from the team itself.

And by public record i mean you can go somewhere and look the shit up. i dont know how prevalent it would be on the internet, but any decent sports journalist can find that all out pretty easy

Are you trying to say I'm not a decent sports journalist?

[Kevin]

Snoogans knows my stance on Yankee spending. I was commenting on foods comment on 90s Mets, as though the Mets still don't do it. But the bottom line is the Yanks can't improve thier team anyother way. Hughes and Kennedy did not pan out. And as of o now there is no reason to believe they will. They overpayed for CC. But AJ they got for market value. Because the Braves offered 80, they got him for 82 5. There is no way they could go in a new stadium, charge all that money and have the same sp, without Moose. They can't get peavey, and even if tuey could, it would cost them twice as much in prospects as anyother team, plus a hefty ext. other than peavy, there is no other good sp on the trade market.

[HBox]

Snoogans knows my stance on Yankee spending. I was commenting on foods comment on 90s Mets, as though the Mets still don't do it. But the bottom line is the Yanks can't improve thier team anyother way. Hughes and Kennedy did not pan out. And as of o now there is no reason to believe they will. They overpayed for CC. But AJ they got for market value. Because the Braves offered 80, they got him for 82 5. There is no way they could go in a new stadium, charge all that money and have the same sp, without Moose. They can't get peavey, and even if tuey could, it would cost them twice as much in prospects as anyother team, plus a hefty ext. other than peavy, there is no other good sp on the trade market.

You are really giving up on 23 year old Kennedy after 12 starts and 22 year old Hughes after 20? Neither one has a full season of starts yet.

[PD]

Wow! I didn't know that. You can't insure the 4th year on a contract?

Well, Billy Wagner's contract problem seems to be it was a pre-existing condition (http://www.insurereinsure.com/BlogHome.aspx?entry=964); however I do recall hearing Omar saying it is prohibitive to insure the 4th year in a pitcher's contract now (after Kevin Brown's Yankee fiasco)

[PD]

You are really giving up on 23 year old Kennedy after 12 starts and 22 year old Hughes after 20? Neither one has a full season of starts yet.

I think Kennedy was over rated (not saying he's bad, but he'll prolly be a #4)
but Hughes I still think will be good

[Kevin]

You are really giving up on 23 year old Kennedy after 12 starts and 22 year old Hughes after 20? Neither one has a full season of starts yet.



Not giving up. But you cant base your season on counting on them like they did last year.

[foodcourtdruide]

Snoogans knows my stance on Yankee spending. I was commenting on foods comment on 90s Mets, as though the Mets still don't do it. But the bottom line is the Yanks can't improve thier team anyother way. Hughes and Kennedy did not pan out. And as of o now there is no reason to believe they will. They overpayed for CC. But AJ they got for market value. Because the Braves offered 80, they got him for 82 5. There is no way they could go in a new stadium, charge all that money and have the same sp, without Moose. They can't get peavey, and even if tuey could, it would cost them twice as much in prospects as anyother team, plus a hefty ext. other than peavy, there is no other good sp on the trade market.

Not to the extent they did it in the early 90's, and much much more effectively.

[foodcourtdruide]

I think Kennedy was over rated (not saying he's bad, but he'll prolly be a #4)
but Hughes I still think will be good

It's so hard to tell with young pitching. It's really a crapshoot. For every Lincecum there are 10 Pulsiphers.

[Kevin]

Not to the extent they did it in the early 90's, and much much more effectively.



Tell me how? You got players that can't cut it in a big spot and crumble with any pressure.

[HBox]

I'd be comfortable going into the season with one open rotation spot and having Kennedy, Hughes, Coke and Aceves battling for it. I'd even prefer that to bringing back Pettitte. I think Andy is done.