MLB Offseason Discussion...HOT STOVE, SSSSSSSSS!!!

[TheMojoPin]

PNC Park opened in 2001. It's the 9th year, this season.

And, MLB mindlessly tried to contract the Minnesota Twins, not all that long ago. They've shown they don't really care about the history of their franchises.



But the problem with Pittsburgh is that the economic situation won't get better in that city. It's going to continue to struggle.

The one thing keep the team there a while longer, though, is that there's nowhere really worth moving the team with a sizeable enough Metro area, other than maybe Portland or San Antonio.

The Pirates aren't going to be moved. They turn a profit every year thanks to the owning family's insistence on putting out a cheap, crappy team.

[K.C.]

And like the other nobody teams that have won it, they'll remain nobody teams.

Look, each team has their fanbase, but there's really only 4 baseball teams that truly have national fanbases outside of the individual regions that teams calls home. That map was cute, but it doesn't represent much in the way of reality.

No, there's only one team in baseball that has a true national fanbase and that's the Yankees.

Then you have five teams (Red Sox (Northeast), Cubs (Midwest-North), Cardinals (Midwest-South), Braves (Deep South), Dodgers (West Coast)) which have regional fanbases.

Then you have three or four team which have sizeable local territories (Mets - New York/New Jersey; Phillies - Philadelphia/Jersey Suburbs/Delaware; Rangers - Dallas/Arlington/Ft. Worth metro area;


And after that, pretty much everyone else is isolated, except maybe a team like the Twins which covers the Prairie states.

[TheMojoPin]

In denial much? Look at the crowds the big 4 draw EVERYWHERE they play and are almost always have fanbases out of town that are threatening to equal the hometown fans at a game or actually surpass them. The Cubs have this thanks to decades of games on WGN and it being picked up by cable providers. The Yankees are the Yankees, the Red Sox are the Red Sox and God knows how the Mets do it, but they do. You're not facing the reality of this if you try and claim it's not true.

Hell, I can't believe you put the Braves up there, and they have trouble filling the syadium.

[K.C.]

In denial much? Look at the crowds the big 4 draw EVERYWHERE they play and are almost always have fanbases out of town that are threatening to equal the hometown fans at a game or actually surpass them. The Cubs have this thanks to decades of games on WGN and it being picked up by cable providers. The Yankees are the Yankees, the Red Sox are the Red Sox and God knows how the Mets do it, but they do. You're not facing the reality of this if you try and claim it's not true.

Hell, I can't believe you put the Braves up there, and they have trouble filling the syadium.

San Diego drew the 4th most fans in road attendance this season, the Yankees drew 5th, the Dodgers drew 6th.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/attendance?sort=away_avg&year=2008&seasonType=2

So the Padre fanbase must be an enormous national institution, right??




Road attendance shows nothing. Media markets and the size of the radius that teams will draw from show more. And in that respect, there's only one true national team.

[K.C.]

Hell, I can't believe you put the Braves up there, and they have trouble filling the syadium.

It doesn't mean they don't draw from Mississippi, Alabama, North Florida, Georgia, the Carolinas, Tenneseee, and Louisiana on Turner South.

That's a fanbase that won't directly be reflected at the gate, but is still pretty sizeable.

[Kevin]

San Diego drew the 4th most fans in road attendance this season, the Yankees drew 5th, the Dodgers drew 6th.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/attendance?sort=away_avg&year=2008&seasonType=2

So the Padre fanbase must be an enormous national institution, right??




Road attendance shows nothing. Media markets and the size of the radius that teams will draw from show more. And in that respect, there's only one true national team.

I will give you this much. The Yankees draw MUCH MUCH more attention than ANY team, by a WIDE margin. Just for the simple fact that their are just as many fans that watch or go to watch them lose, as there are Fans that go to root for them and watch them win. No other team comes close.

[TheMojoPin]

San Diego drew the 4th most fans in road attendance this season, the Yankees drew 5th, the Dodgers drew 6th.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/attendance?sort=away_avg&year=2008&seasonType=2

So the Padre fanbase must be an enormous national institution, right??





Road attendance shows nothing. Media markets and the size of the radius that teams will draw from show more. And in that respect, there's only one true national team.

The Yankees stunk this year. The list has some random fluctuations...the Padres are up this year, but so what? Other years they're not. In 2006 the Reds were randomly the 3rd best draw. The Pirates were 5th in 2005. Don't act like there's atrend for those anomalies that match what the Red Sox, Yankees, Cubs and, to a lesser degree, Mets do CONSISTENLY year after year.

I'm also not sure why you think the Yanks are the only true "national team" posting a link like that when it shows Boston and the Cubs outdrawing them in different years or RIGHT behind them. I'll buy that you can argue down to the Mets, because they've got some dismal showings on that page, but the Red Sox, Cubs and Yanks are ALWAYS in the top 5over the last decade. You'll find diehard fans for those teams in significant numbers EVERYWHERE.

[TheMojoPin]

It doesn't mean they don't draw from Mississippi, Alabama, North Florida, Georgia, the Carolinas, Tenneseee, and Louisiana on Turner South.

That's a fanbase that won't directly be reflected at the gate, but is still pretty sizeable.

Though apparently incredibly poor/cheap/lazy.

[K.C.]

I will give you this much. The Yankees draw MUCH MUCH more attention than ANY team, by a WIDE margin. Just for the simple fact that their are just as many fans that watch or go to watch them lose, as there are Fans that go to root for them and watch them win. No other team comes close.

I've been to games in Anaheim and seen 70% Yankees fans in the stadium. But the thing about it is that most of them are Southern Californians, born and bred. That's just the hold the Yankees have nationally that they draw fans that have no tie to their market.


I will concede that the Red Sox have a following that rivals, maybe even slightly surpasses the Yankees in the Northeast. But I've never seen any indication that the Red Sox carry weight outside of the Northeast.

And unlike Yankees fans who show up elsewhere, most road Boston fans I've ever encountered are from Boston, or Boston transplants. They don't grow fans outside of their immediate territory.

And I'll concede to Mojo that the Cubs are easily have the 4th largest fanbase in baseball (behind the Yanks, Sox, and Dodgers). And that those fans travel A LOT.

But outside of the Midwest, there isn't a large Cubs presence that isn't immediately tied to Chicago. There's just not.

[epo]

But outside of the Midwest, there isn't a large Cubs presenece. There's just not.

Even here, its a diminishing base amongst the educated and/or sober.

[TheMojoPin]

But outside of the Midwest, there isn't a large Cubs presence that isn't immediately tied to Chicago. There's just not.

You cannot underestimate the decades of viewership of WGN by people around the country as their regular source of baseball, especially as kids and growing up, and how it's turned the Cubs into a nationwide fanbase. What they draw ANYWHERE they play is insane. If you're claiming most of that is made of traveling fans or even transplants, you're wrong. It would be impossible for Chicago and the area around it to produce those numbers.

[TheMojoPin]

Even here, its a diminishing base amongst the educated and/or sober.

Sorry the most exciting game at your stadium this season didn't even involve the Brewers.

[epo]

Sorry the most exciting game at your stadium this season didn't even involve the Brewers.

Sorry, nobody here cares about your team's inability to win a playoff game.

[TheMojoPin]

Sorry, nobody here cares about your team's inability to win a playoff game.

Sure, sure. Enjoy the split stadium next season, as per usual.

[Kevin]

Sorry the most exciting game at your stadium this season didn't even involve the Brewers.

Please, like thats hard to do.. The Newark Bears can do that.

[K.C.]

You cannot underestimate the decades of viewership of WGN by people around the country as their regular source of baseball, especially as kids and growing up, and how it's turned the Cubs into a nationwide fanbase. What they draw ANYWHERE they play is insane. If you're claiming most of that is made of traveling fans, you're wrong.

I used to get WGN, so I know of the range of it. It's not quite the same as the Braves with TBS, because WGN broadcasted a lot of local Chicago TV, while TBS was more of a national station. I think WGN provided a lot of people who were Cubs fans who left Chicago to stay with the team, and it also spread the team throughout the Midwest.

And I wouldn't claim traveling fans are ALL of the Cubs' road presence. Chicago's one of the largest metro areas in the U.S. I'm sure over time there has been a lot of transplants that have spread throughout the country.

But it's not the same thing as what the Yankees have.

You'll meet people in Washington State, or California, or Arizona, or anywhere you go where there is baseball, who really have no ties to New York, or New York sports, but are Yankees fans, because of the national presence that team has.

I have never seen that dynamic with any other team.

Now, don't get me wrong...I think it's a shitty dynamic. I'd much rather have a fanbase, like the Cubs, of people that have some tie to where the team is from, and aren't a bunch of bandwagon jumpers.

But in terms of popularity, it matters.

[TheMojoPin]

Please, like thats hard to do.. The Newark Bears can that.

True. They're usually more thrilled by that moustachioed fool going down a giant slide or racing sausages than what's going on with the game.

[TheMojoPin]

I used to get WGN, so I know of the range of it. It's not quite the same as the Braves with TBS, because WGN broadcasted a lot of local Chicago TV, while TBS was more of a national station. I think WGN provided a lot of people who were Cubs fans who left Chicago to stay with the team, and it also spread the team throughout the Midwest.

And I wouldn't claim traveling fans are ALL of the Cubs' road presence. Chicago's one of the largest metro areas in the U.S. I'm sure over time there has been a lot of transplants that have spread throughout the country.

But it's not the same thing as what the Yankees have.

You'll meet people in Washington State, or California, or Arizona, or anywhere you go where there is baseball, who really have no ties to New York, or New York sports, but are Yankees fans, because of the national presence that team has.

I have never seen that dynamic with any other team.

Now, don't get me wrong...I think it's a shitty dynamic. I'd much rather have a fanbase, like the Cubs, of people that have some tie to where the team is from, and aren't a bunch of bandwagon jumpers.

But in terms of popularity, it matters.

And I'm not saying the Cubs are more popular than the Yankees. The Yanks, Red Sox and the Cubs just have national fanbases that blow anyone else in baseball out of the water with the possibe exception of the Mets.

[K.C.]

And I'm not saying the Cubs are more popular than the Yankees. The Yanks, Red Sox and the Cubs just have national fanbases that blow anyone else in baseball out of the water with the possibe exception of the Mets.

I'm just saying I have a hard time seeing the Red Sox and Cubs as national. Strong regional presence, yes.

And actually I think you short-change the Dodgers. They're easily Top 4. I'm sure there's even an argument to be made that it's a more popular franchise than the Cubs, but I'm not sure I would say that.

I can say with 100% certainty that the Mets have no national fanbase. There are no Met fans that did not relocate from New York or North Jersey at some point in their life.

[TheMojoPin]

I don't know why you just discount transplants. They still count as fas. They tend to raise their kids as fans and enough of them can end up creating more fans away from the home region over the years.

Just living and traveling around the country over the course of my life, those are the 4 teams I see or meet fans of everywhere...hell, those are the 4 teas I see most commonly repped around the world. I simply don't get that with the Dodgers at all. I'm not saying they have a smal fanbase, because they don't, but I think it's far more region specific.

If you're not seeing it, I don't know what to tell you. The Cubs are one thing, but to say the Red Sox aren't GIGANTIC all around the country and outside of the US? That's just not realistic. If I had to scale it, it's be like this:

Yankees












Red Sox




































Cubs




































Mets




















Everyone else

[epo]

True. They're usually more thrilled by that moustachioed fool going down a giant slide or racing sausages than what's going on with the game.

Do I gotta take this shit from a man who pisses in a trough on purpose?

Can I get a ruling here on this drunken savage?

[TheMojoPin]

Do I gotta take this shit from a man who pisses in a trough on purpose?

Can I get a ruling here on this drunken savage?

Yes, we all know about how you prefer bathroom procedures that keep you in a public mens restroom as long as possible as opposed to watching the game.

[brettmojo]

Indianapolis
Memphis
Charlotte
Las Vegas
Albuquerque

Let Pityburgh keep their Pirates... They should repo the Blue Jays and relocate them to one of those cities.

BASEBALL FOR THE AMERICANS!!!

[K.C.]

Because the whole definition of being 'national', at least to me, is the pull a team has outside its city.

Transplants are still directly connected, in most cases, although, you have a point about people who raise their families and kind of assimilate into where they go, so there's something to be said for that.


And actually, I see more of a case for the Cubs being national (even though I wouldn't consider them that) than the Red Sox.

I don't see that Red Sox Nation bullshit AT ALL.

99% of what Hank Steinbrenner says is retarded, but the one thing he actually nailed was that Red Sox Nation is a complete fabrication of ESPN.

They draw well nationally because they've been good lately. And they were the darlings of the nation for a year. Even most of that national popularity they had after '04 has begun to dwindle back to normal.

[epo]

Yes, we all know about how you prefer bathroom procedures that keep you in a public mens restroom as long as possible as opposed to watching the game.

Its no wonder that when the Cubs come to town that beer sales go up and arrests for urinating in the sink follow.

Savages.

[TheMojoPin]

Its no wonder that when the Cubs come to town that beer sales go up and arrests for urinating in the sink follow.

Savages.

We're there to watch the game, not linger in the bathroom.

Perverts.

[epo]

Because the whole definition of being 'national', at least to me, is the pull a team has outside its city.

Transplants are still directly connected, in most cases, although, you have a point about people who raise their families and kind of assimilate into where they go, so there's something to be said for that.


And actually, I see more of a case for the Cubs being national (even though I wouldn't consider them that) than the Red Sox.

I don't see that Red Sox Nation bullshit AT ALL.

99% of what Hank Steinbrenner says is retarded, but the one thing he actually nailed was that Red Sox Nation is a complete fabrication of ESPN.

They draw well nationally because they've been good lately. And they were the darlings of the nation for a year. Even most of that national popularity they had after '04 has begun to dwindle back to normal.

Also now that WGN is out of the Cubs baseball business.....you are gonna see Cubs national appeal dwindle.......

[K.C.]

Indianapolis
Memphis
Charlotte
Las Vegas
Albuquerque

Let Pityburgh keep their Pirates... They should repo the Blue Jays and relocate them to one of those cities.

BASEBALL FOR THE AMERICANS!!!

Charlotte's the only really viable place of that list, because it's up and coming and has no real baseball.

Vegas and Albuquerque don't have large enough Metro areas.

A team in Memphis would be crushed by the Cardinals and Braves who kind of meet somewhere in Tennessee.

I imagine the Cubs have a stranglehold on Indianapolis that no new team could cut in to.

[epo]

We're there to watch the game, not linger in the bathroom.

Perverts.

I didn't miss a pitch this season in the bathroom.

Maybe if you drunks didn't spend the whole game getting hammered, you wouldn't have such a high traffic zone in the can.

[brettmojo]

Charlotte's the only really viable place of that list, because it's up and coming and has no real baseball.

Vegas and Albuquerque don't have large enough Metro areas.

A team in Memphis would be crushed by the Cardinals and Braves who kind of meet somewhere in Tennessee.

I imagine the Cubs have a stranglehold on Indianapolis that no new team could cut in to.
Vegas and Albuquerque both have larger populations than Atlanta, Cleveland, Kansas City, Oakland, Miami, Minneapolis and Arlington. I don't think that'd be an issue.

A Memphis team could carve out a good fan base between St. Louis and Atlanta... It's gotta' suck for Carolina baseball fans to have to be force fed Atlanta baseball. But a Vegas team could cover a nice untapped fan base between the California teams and Colorado.

[K.C.]

Vegas and Albuquerque both have larger populations than Atlanta, Cleveland, Kansas City, Oakland, Miami, Minneapolis and Arlington. I don't think that'd be an issue.

A Memphis team could carve out a good fan base between St. Louis and Atlanta... It's gotta' suck for Carolina baseball fans to have to be force fed Atlanta baseball. But a Vegas team could cover a nice untapped fan base between the California teams and Colorado.

Larger city populations.

The key is metro population, which includes the surrounding areas. Most money comes from suburbs outside a team's city anyway.

Vegas has a larger city population than Atlanta, but Atlanta has 5-6 million people in its Metro area. Arlington draws hugely from the Dallas/Ft. Worth market

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Ar eas

Now, I don't know what it would take population wise to support a baseball team. Pittsburgh and Kansas City are the two smallest markets by size, and they have about 2 million and change in the surrounding areas.

Portland is comparable to Pittsburgh in size. San Antonio and Charlotte are a little smaller, but kind of on an upswing so it'd be a good future investment.

With Vegas, you'd have to determine if a team would be helped by all the tourism that the city draws, or whether people are so obsessed with gambling, they wouldn't take a couple hours to go to a ball game.


There's no real obvious choice. Even a place like Salt Lake City wouldn't be a bad consideration.

[TheMojoPin]

I didn't miss a pitch this season in the bathroom.

Maybe if you drunks didn't spend the whole game getting hammered, you wouldn't have such a high traffic zone in the can.

There is no high traffic zone in our bathrooms. You seem to be missing the point.

And I agree, you definitely caught everything in the bathroom last season.

[K.C.]

Well since Pittsburgh's been a topic of conversation, here's the Pirates breakdown:

http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/1003/pittsburghpirateszi2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


They're going to spend about 6-7 more million, I think.

They'd be well served, though, to explore trading both Freddy Sanchez and Jack Wilson. I'd suggest Adam LaRoche, too, but I don't think anyone would want him.

There's some talent there. Andy LaRoche is a decent prospect. Nate McClouth is fantastic. Ryan Doumit is quietly becoming a very good young catcher. The starting pitching, if healthy, could be surprisingly good. If I were them, my checklist would be:

1) move Sanchez and Wilson (saves $13.4 million, that can be spent elsewhere)
2) add a solid, low cost utility player like Willie Bloomquist or Jerry Hairston to play 2B.
3) Take a shot on someone Bartolo Colon or Freddy Garcia for the rotation, who would be looking for a one year deal to show some value for next year.
4) start amassing bullpen arms. Chad Cordero would be a good buy low, sell high move.

Other than that, they need to draft well, and continue to build.



A future lineup of
C - Doumit
1B - Pearce
3B - LaRoche
LF - Moss
CF - Tabata
RF - McLouth

Isn't a bad young core to start building around.

[Kevin]

I hate the start of FA. For about a month its all rumors and NOTHING.

[K.C.]

One more be for I go to sleep.

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/6602/cincinnattiredsyt2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I'm really surprised how close this team is, having looked at it closely. That rotation is pretty deep. They might benefit from adding a veteran starter to bump Owings, like Paul Byrd or Odalis Perez or possibly takiing a chance on someone like Carl Pavano, but actually, they're probably fine.

They do need bullpen help. Cordero's a solid closer, and Burton's a decent set up guy, but they need to fill out the middle relief. I'd recommend Will Ohman and Juan Cruz (a lefty and a righty).

But with at least $20 million to spend, they can make one big move. A Homer Bailey for Magglio Ordonez swap would be tremendous. Ordonez would anchor right, and push Bruce to CF and Dickerson to LF.

They could then mix and match Freel, Keppinger and Gonzalez at SS.

Jermaine Dye wouldn't be a bad add either. If they can get one big primetime bat for that lineup, and a couple middle relievers, the Reds will be a definite contender, and could be an NL dark horse.

That's how good that rotation could potentially be next season.

[cougarjake13]

Pittsburgh's problem is that it's a small city, and it has no real baseball territory.

The Pirates' market gets cut by the Phillies at about Harrisburg, to the east of the city. It has almost no fanbase to its west, because that's all Cleveland territory. To it's north, they run up against the Yankees, whose fanbase encroaches into Northern PA. And it probably splits the territory to its south pretty evenly with the Orioles.

So there's very little room for that franchise to grow. It would not surprise if its the next team to be relocated by MLB, which is a shame, considering the history of the franchise in that city.


This is a decent representation of the baseball territories, although, it's not 100% accurate. I think the Cardinals, for example stretch much further east (well into Tennessee) and south (well into Mississippi). And into Oklahoma, almost right up to Texas.

http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/835641802_ef422b12cf_b1.jpg



whats with the little florida like peninsula of the mariners territory ??

how do the figure that ??

[HBox]

Pittsburgh's problem is that it's a small city, and it has no real baseball territory.

The Pirates' market gets cut by the Phillies at about Harrisburg, to the east of the city. It has almost no fanbase to its west, because that's all Cleveland territory. To it's north, they run up against the Yankees, whose fanbase encroaches into Northern PA. And it probably splits the territory to its south pretty evenly with the Orioles.

So there's very little room for that franchise to grow. It would not surprise if its the next team to be relocated by MLB, which is a shame, considering the history of the franchise in that city.


This is a decent representation of the baseball territories, although, it's not 100% accurate. I think the Cardinals, for example stretch much further east (well into Tennessee) and south (well into Mississippi). And into Oklahoma, almost right up to Texas.

http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/835641802_ef422b12cf_b1.jpg

There are significantly more Yankee fans than Mets fans in NJ.

[El Mudo]

Don't know if this has been posted here yet but


The two Indian guys the Pirates signed have a blog (http://www.themilliondollararm.com/blog/) which is quite hysterical

Last evening we prepare dinner and UPS truck arrive with box from Pirates.

in box we surprised to see many things for us to wear. We received Pirates Uniforms and Pirates shirts, and Pirates shorts, and very warm Pirates Jacket. In box also big book on all information Pirates, and a DVD with highlights of Pirates PNC Park and many big players playing baseball for Pirates.

We learn about Roberto Clemente, first Spanish player on Piartes get 3000 hits. Barry Bonds play Pirates. Many good players.

We are very proud to be putting on our first Pirate uniform. We learn much about the team and Pittsburgh and think that we work very hard and someday help Pirates win World Series.

When we put on jersey it was first time since we win contest that this journey not feel like dream, it feel like I wake best dream, find it to be true.

Thanks to Pirates for the box of gifts - we will wear them with great pride.

Thanks to our families and fans back in India. We are thinking of you always in our hearts.

[El Mudo]

The Pirates draw a million and a half a year, which is really really good seeing as the team has been dog poop for 16 straight years

2001 2,435,867

2002 1,784,993

2003 1,636,751

2004 1,583,031

2005 1,794,237

2006 1,861,549

2007 1,749,142

2008 1,609,076



Why would anyone want to move them? Its not the people of Pittsburgh's fault that the management has been so awful

[cougarjake13]

The Pirates draw a million and a half a year, which is really really good seeing as the team has been dog poop for 16 straight years

2001 2,435,867

2002 1,784,993

2003 1,636,751

2004 1,583,031

2005 1,794,237

2006 1,861,549

2007 1,749,142

2008 1,609,076



Why would anyone want to move them? Its not the people of Pittsburgh's fault that the management has been so awful



they need andy van slyke to buy the team and save them

[El Mudo]

Is it safe to assume Curt Schilling is done? I don't see him signing with anyone now at his advanced age and with a blown out arm


Another HOF debate anyone?

Career ERA +: 127

Career WHIP: 1.13

You could make a case for how good he was in the postseason, but the sample size is wayyy too small. And look at his career comparables:

1. Kevin Brown (920)
2. Bob Welch (900)
3. Orel Hershiser (889)
4. Freddie Fitzsimmons (884)
5. John Smoltz (882)
6. Milt Pappas (880)
7. Don Drysdale (875) *
8. Dazzy Vance (873) *
9. Jim Perry (871)
10. Catfish Hunter (869) *


His stats are eerily similar (if just a teeny bit better) than Mussina's, so my verdict is no

[K.C.]

Is it safe to assume Curt Schilling is done? I don't see him signing with anyone now at his advanced age and with a blown out arm


He'll sign with someone in June.

I'd say there's probably an 80% chance he tries a Roger Clemens type deal after he's fully recovered.

I just hope it's not with the Phillies.

[cougarjake13]

He'll sign with someone in June.

I'd say there's probably an 80% chance he tries a Roger Clemens type deal after he's fully recovered.

I just hope it's not with the Phillies.



or the mutts

[sailor]

The Pirates draw a million and a half a year, which is really really good seeing as the team has been dog poop for 16 straight years

2001 2,435,867

2002 1,784,993

2003 1,636,751

2004 1,583,031

2005 1,794,237

2006 1,861,549

2007 1,749,142

2008 1,609,076



Why would anyone want to move them? Its not the people of Pittsburgh's fault that the management has been so awful

plus, they have the best stadium in the game.

[K.C.]

So a friend and I were kind of batting this around a little bit today.

C.C. Sabathia does not want to go to New York.

He's leaked out that he would prefer to go to the West Coast, and stay in the National League. He's also stated publicly that he'd love to stay in Milwaukee if it could be worked out.

The West Coast/NL situation just does not exist for him. The Dodgers are cheap, the Padres are tearing down their organization, and the Giants are bogged down by huge contracts.

So you basically have three team that legitimately want C.C. The Angels, the Yankees, and the Brewers.

Of those three, the Angels and Yankees can afford to toss him a 6yr/$150 million type of deal.

If you're the Brewers, you know what he meant to that city and that team. You also know he's the best pitcher on the free agent market. And you also know he's still relatively young.

You obviously could never match the per year salary of the Angels or Yankees.

So why, if you want him, wouldn't you go something like 10yrs/$190 million or 10yrs/$200 million?

It's basically the equivalent of a lifetime contract. Obviously, if C.C. blew out his arm in the next couple years, it be disastrous, but by the same token, he'd be 38 at the end of that contract...you would stand to potentially get full value out of the entire life of that contract because of his age, and if he's still decent, you'd probably be getting him at a below market price if he's still pitching well at the end of that contract.

There's obviously a huge potential risk involved. But at the same time...you're Milwaukee...how often does one of the best players in the game actually WANT to go to/stay in Milwaukee???

I just think it'd completely change the face of the franchise, and it would be worth the risk.

[epo]

So a friend and I were kind of batting this around a little bit today.

C.C. Sabathia does not want to go to New York.

He's leaked out that he would prefer to go to the West Coast, and stay in the National League. He's also stated publicly that he'd love to stay in Milwaukee if it could be worked out.

The West Coast/NL situation just does not exist for him. The Dodgers are cheap, the Padres are tearing down their organization, and the Giants are bogged down by huge contracts.

So you basically have three team that legitimately want C.C. The Angels, the Yankees, and the Brewers.

Of those three, the Angels and Yankees can afford to toss him a 6yr/$150 million type of deal.

If you're the Brewers, you know what he meant to that city and that team. You also know he's the best pitcher on the free agent market. And you also know he's still relatively young.

You obviously could never match the per year salary of the Angels or Yankees.

So why, if you want him, wouldn't you go something like 10yrs/$190 million or 10yrs/$200 million?

It's basically the equivalent of a lifetime contract. Obviously, if C.C. blew out his arm in the next couple years, it be disastrous, but by the same token, he'd be 38 at the end of that contract...you would stand to potentially get full value out of the entire life of that contract because of his age, and if he's still decent, you'd probably be getting him at a below market price if he's still pitching well at the end of that contract.

There's obviously a huge potential risk involved. But at the same time...you're Milwaukee...how often does one of the best players in the game actually WANT to go to/stay in Milwaukee???

I just think it'd completely change the face of the franchise, and it would be worth the risk.

I like the risk. The only negative is that it would guarantee that they move Fielder in 2009/10, but I'm ok with that.

One thing is OBVIOUS though....Sabathia seems to have ZERO interest in wearing pinstripes. I think its hilarious.

[HBox]

I can't possibly think of a worse idea than signing Sabathia to a 9 or 10 year deal. Even in a 5-6 year deal you can't expect much from the last couple of years with the innings he's logged. To add 3-4 years on top of that?

[K.C.]

I can't possibly think of a worse idea than signing Sabathia to a 9 or 10 year deal. Even in a 5-6 year deal you can't expect much from the last couple of years with the innings he's logged. To add 3-4 years on top of that?

David Wells was 20-8 with a 4.11 ERA at age 37, infinitely fatter, and a drunk to boot.

So if you're making that claim on his body frame (and if you're not, then I don't know what you could possibly be making it on), there's precedent.

Hell, Curt Schilling and Roger Clemens were fat boys, too.


I'm not so quick to jump on this line of thought that he's due to break down quickly, because there's not real factual data for it, or observational data about how he pitches that suggests he'll be quick to break down.



That said, if you could get another good 7-8 years out of C.C., I'd gladly give him 10 years to get that.

[K.C.]

the last couple of years with the innings he's logged

34 and 35 starts respectively in the last two years.

I imagine you'll see that scaled back to 30 with whoever signs him, no matter what the length of the deal.

Any team that signs him will protect their investment. It's doubtful you'll see him throwing on three days rest for a month at a time, again in his career.

[HBox]

David Wells was 20-8 with a 4.11 ERA at age 37, infinitely fatter, and a drunk to boot.

So if you're making that claim on his body frame (and if you're not, then I don't know what you could possibly be making it on), there's precedent.

Hell, Curt Schilling and Roger Clemens were fat boys, too.


I'm not so quick to jump on this line of thought that he's due to break down quickly, because there's not real factual data for it, or observational data about how he pitches that suggests he'll be quick to break down.



That said, if you could get another good 7-8 years out of C.C., I'd gladly give him 10 years to get that.

It has nothing to do with his body frame and everything to do with the amount of pitching he's done.

Sabathia is 27 right now. He's thrown 1659 innings. When David Wells was 27 he'd thrown 368 innings. Wells has never thrown as many innings in a season as Sabathia has the last 2. Sabathia is much more reliant on getting strikeouts. That Sabathia has thrown 256 innings in the last two season makes him a higher than average both short and long term risk. There's no guarantee anything will happen but its not a smart gamble at all.

It would be like picking Sarah Palin as your VP. At first everyone is jubilant. But then you become a dead talking husk fruitlessly trying to argue that the 5 MPH Sabathia lost on his fastball will come back and he's fine even if it doesn't, or that he'll bounce right back from that reconstructive elbow surgery, or that torn labrum. Or that the media has a distinct anti-fat bias and that's the only reason Milwaukee's being attacked. Or that Sabathia made the Selig family spend $150,000 on KFC.

OK, I went a little too far in that analogy.

[epo]

It has nothing to do with his body frame and everything to do with the amount of pitching he's done.

Sabathia is 27 right now. He's thrown 1659 innings. When David Wells was 27 he'd thrown 368 innings. Wells has never thrown as many innings in a season as Sabathia has the last 2. Sabathia is much more reliant on getting strikeouts. That Sabathia has thrown 256 innings in the last two season makes him a higher than average both short and long term risk. There's no guarantee anything will happen but its not a smart gamble at all.

It would be like picking Sarah Palin as your VP. At first everyone is jubilant. But then you become a dead talking husk fruitlessly trying to argue that the 5 MPH Sabathia lost on his fastball will come back and he's fine even if it doesn't, or that he'll bounce right back from that reconstructive elbow surgery, or that torn labrum. Or that the media has a distinct anti-fat bias and that's the only reason Milwaukee's being attacked. Or that Sabathia made the Selig family spend $150,000 on KFC.

OK, I went a little too far in that analogy.

Obviously. The Selig family hasn't owned the Brewers since 2004.

[HBox]

Obviously. The Selig family hasn't owned the Brewers since 2004.

And the RNC wasn't the McCain campaign. I recognize these things!

[brettmojo]

One thing is OBVIOUS though....Sabathia seems to have ZERO interest in wearing pinstripes. I think its hilarious.
And as a Yankee fan, I'm pretty happy about that fact.

At the very least it'll mean that they won't overpay for him after throwing out that ridiculous contract offer. Unfortunately they'll probably just turn around and waste cash on A.J. Burnett and whoever else. But oh well.

[epo]

And as a Yankee fan, I'm pretty happy about that fact.

At the very least it'll mean that they won't overpay for him after throwing out that ridiculous contract offer. Unfortunately they'll probably just turn around and waste cash on A.J. Burnett and whoever else. But oh well.

And strangely enough...AJ Burnett looks like a newer version of Kevin Brown/Carl Pavano for some reason....

[K.C.]

It has nothing to do with his body frame and everything to do with the amount of pitching he's done.

Sabathia is 27 right now. He's thrown 1659 innings. When David Wells was 27 he'd thrown 368 innings. Wells has never thrown as many innings in a season as Sabathia has the last 2. Sabathia is much more reliant on getting strikeouts. That Sabathia has thrown 256 innings in the last two season makes him a higher than average both short and long term risk. There's no guarantee anything will happen but its not a smart gamble at all.


People said the same thing about Roy Halladay, though, who followed a similar trajectory in 2002 and 2003, going from 239 IP to 266 IP.

He did miss some starts in 2004 with shoulder tendenitis, I believe.

2005, he was hands down the Cy Young of the league before a line drive broke his leg.

But he came right back and went 220, 225, and 246 from '06-'08.

So he really lost about 10 starts over seven years from things that could be directly attributed to strain on his arm from over work.

A lot of the innings argument depends on the guy's delivery.

Guys like A.J. Burnett and Tim Lincecum have extremely volatile deliveries. That's why Burnett has spent so much time on the DL after logging a lot of innings (and why I'd be very reluctant to sign him long-term), and a similar thing will probably happen to Lincecum as well.

But nobody really has ever said that Sabathia has a problematic delivery.

His only real problem area would be his back or knees over time, because of his weight. In all likelihood, though, no team would see the effects of that until the back-end of a contract, if it comes at all.

Might he have a stint here or there on the DL with shoulder or arm tendonitis? Yeah, probably.

But on the whole, he'll more likely, than not, perform to, or overperform his contract unless he blows out his arm.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating giving him 10 years, if the team had a choice.

But if you're the Brewers, and you're limited in what you can do, it's something to consider, since it's the only real shot you have at getting him.

[PD]

giving these super long term contracts to pitchers is dangerous, but I agree that if you were going to give it to someone, CC would be that guy.

It's not just how many pitches you throw, it's the increase in innings from year to year, and the stress on those innings.

There were days when pitchers regularly threw more than 200 innings, and many were unaffected.

Having said that, it's all about insurance now- and those uninsured years are tough to swallow.

on another topic,
today is arbitration deadline; I think this greatly affects some players value.
For example, Bobby Abreu wasn't offered arbitration. I think he's been over rated, but he might be worth a shot now for some team for a 2-3 yr deal - now that there is no draft pick involved.

[cougarjake13]

10 yrs would be too much to give to a pitcher, even cc



and since its seemingly obvious that he doesnt want the yanks or their money the brewers might not have to overpay that much

[PD]

no arbitration for Kerry Wood and Adam Dunn.

If Wood is willing to take a 2 yr, that makes him a good pickup.

[cougarjake13]

no arbitration for Kerry Wood and Adam Dunn.

If Wood is willing to take a 2 yr, that makes him a good pickup.



someone will give him a 3-4 yr deal

[K.C.]

Some of these guys that are getting declined; Abreu, Wood, Dunn, Randy Johnson, Smoltz, Pettitte, Hoffman...

It tells you a couple things:

1) Executives are very, very conscious of the fact that the overall amount of money poured into free agency this year could be significantly less. As a result, there was a fear of an increasing likelihood that more free agents may opt to take arbitration since they'll likely get more per year from that, then they would signing long-term this offseason, and then have the chance to test another free agent market after the 2009 season.

2) Draft pick compensation is increasingly governing the interest teams have in certain free agents. There are probably quite a few teams that would have interest in some of the aforementioned players, but not for their price tag, and two #1 picks.


Pat Burrell will be another bellweather on this market. In a normal free agent year, the Phillies would offer him arbitration and Burrell would decline and sign a better contract elsewhere.

But with this market, it's very possible he joins that list. And it's also very possible, that if he is offered it, he takes it.


There's no doubt that Abreu, Dunn, Johnson, Smoltz, Pettitte, and Hoffman all may have opted for arbitration this offseason if offered.

Wood is the only one who may conceivably get more on the open market than he would in an arbitration hearing.

[epo]

Here is a question: If you are a GM which closer is most valuable:

1. K-Rod, Type A free agent
2. Brian Fuentes, Type A free agent
3. Kerry Wood, no compensation free agent
4. Trevor Hoffman, no compensation free agent

Considering that Type A free agents demand your first-round pick, its not as easy of a question for teams once you consider the value of the pick.

[Marc with a c]

wood for one year, if they could get him, would be ideal for the mets

[JerseySean]

And strangely enough...AJ Burnett looks like a newer version of Kevin Brown/Carl Pavano for some reason....

I get the same feeling.

[JerseySean]

Here is a question: If you are a GM which closer is most valuable:

1. K-Rod, Type A free agent
2. Brian Fuentes, Type A free agent
3. Kerry Wood, no compensation free agent
4. Trevor Hoffman, no compensation free agent

Considering that Type A free agents demand your first-round pick, its not as easy of a question for teams once you consider the value of the pick.

K-Rod is in the middle of what looks like a hall of fame career. If I had the $12 million, Im not worried about the pick. However, if money is the issue and I only have to pay Wood $7 million, I'd go for wood and keep my pick

[epo]

Here is a list of the free agents. (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/12/2009-mlb-free-a.html) They are updating the arbitration status as it comes along.

At first glance I'm just shocked that Jamie Moyer would classify as a Type A.

[K.C.]

1. K-Rod, Type A free agent


Likely to get in the ballpark of 5yrs/$60 mil and cost a first rounder and a sandwich pick.


2. Brian Fuentes, Type A free agent


Probably a 3yr/$27 mil or 3yr/$30 mil guy, and a first and a sandwich pick.


3. Kerry Wood, no compensation free agent


The benchmark is probably the Lidge deal, which is 3yr/$36 mil, with maybe a 4th year option.


4. Trevor Hoffman, no compensation free agent.


Could probably be gotten on a 1yr/$5 mil or 1yr/$6 mil deal.



It depends on what a team's needs would be. Obviously, Wood is WAY more attractive in a multi-year deal than K-Rod or Fuentes, not just because of the money and compensation, but because if you look at some of the splits, Wood could conceivably be the better closer over the next 3-4 years.

That said, Wood's not a lights out, elite closer type of guy. He's good, and he's stable. But none of the others are either.

Hoffman on a one year deal actually is very attractive. I'd be inclined to take a shot on him. The only kind of scary thing about him is that he was pitching at Petco for so long.

[Kevin]

wood for one year, if they could get him, would be ideal for the mets

Do you really want TWO closers on the dl?

[epo]

Likely to get in the ballpark of 5yrs/$60 mil and cost a first rounder and a sandwich pick.



Doesn't the league provide the sandwich between rounds?

So then teams only really surrender 1 pick, while the league compensates the team with a second for its loss.

[Marc with a c]

i honestly can't imagine wood getting lidge money.

[K.C.]

Doesn't the league provide the sandwich between rounds?

It's a weird rule.

If you have two first round picks you lose both first rounders, unless one of the first rounders is in the Top 15 or Top 10 or something, which are protected.

Then you lose a first and compensatory pick, which may or may not be an actual pick, depending on whether or not you lose any Type A or Type B free agents.

It's kind of a clusterfuck.

[K.C.]

i honestly can't imagine wood getting lidge money.

Francisco Cordero got 4yrs/$46 mil from the Reds a couple years ago.

Lidge actually signed below market value last season.

Wood should get close to 3/$36 mil, which is about the bar for a closer just under 'elite' status.

His injury history should suggest caution, but as odd as it sounds, since he's been around forever, he presents the most upside of any relief pitcher on the market.

He'll get more teams interested in him than K-Rod this offseason.

[K.C.]

This is probably your market for closers:

Braves (likely to bring back Smoltz to close)
Mets (no one knows what they're doing, or what they're willing to spend right now. Omar's been completely MIA this offseason)
Cardinals (Could take a stab at Wood or Hoffman)
Brewers (Wood may be a bit hard to come by. Hoffman would be a great fit on a one year deal).
Diamondbacks (Regionally, Hoffman would make sense, but they may be able to fork over the cash for Wood or Fuentes).
Rays (Hoffman on a one year deal or fill from within).
Orioles (maybe) (I could see crazy Peter Angelos dumping a bunch of money on K-Rod or Wood despite the fact that they have Chris Ray coming back).
Tigers (maybe) (Depends on Zumaya's health. He's ultimately the closer of the future, so they could go on a one year deal with somone like Hoffman, Smoltz, or even Troy Percival if Zumaya's not ready).
Indians (maybe) (Depends on how they fill about Jensen Lewis. Fuentes could be a fit).
Rangers (K-Rod or Wood)
Angels (maybe) (Depends on if they think Arredondo can close or not. They still have interest in K-Rod, so he could be back).

[Basedow]

It's a weird rule.

If you have two first round picks you lose both first rounders, unless one of the first rounders is in the Top 15 or Top 10 or something, which are protected.

Then you lose a first and compensatory pick, which may or may not be an actual pick, depending on whether or not you lose any Type A or Type B free agents.

It's kind of a clusterfuck.

IF TEAM X signs a Type - A free agent away from TEAM Y, then TEAM Y will receive the first round pick of TEAM X and will be awarded a sandwich round pick as well. If the first round pick of TEAM X happens to be in the top 15 picks of the 2009 draft then that pick will be protected and instead TEAM Y will be awarded the second round pick of TEAM X as well as the sandwich round pick.

If TEAM X signs a Type - B free agent away from TEAM Y, then TEAM Y will be awarded with ONLY a sandwich round pick in the 2009 draft.

ALL sandwich round picks are created via free agency compensation which is why they don't simply call it the second round. Not every team will have picks in the sandwich round.


This is my understanding of the process, somebody please correct me if I have any of that wrong and feel free to add further explanation that I may have omitted.

What I don't fully understand is what happens if a team, like the Yankees, signs multiple Type - A picks. The Yankees currently have pick #26 and #29 in the first round. What happens if they sign more than two Type - A Free Agents? How will the team that loses that third Type - A Free Agent be compensated fairly if the Yankees have no more first round picks to cede?


Here's the updated list (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/12/x-free-agents-m.html) of all the FA who have been offered Arbitration via MLBTR

[El Mudo]

i honestly can't imagine wood getting lidge money.

His stats last year (137 ERA + and 1.08 WHIP) look really similar to his best season in 03 (135 ERA + and 1.19 WHIP) and he's only 31. He's got the injury risk, but I think with those stats, he's an acceptable one

Lidge's stats the season before the Phils signed him: 131 ERA + and a 1.25 WHIP (and he's the same age as Wood). Of course he followed that up with an obscene 225 ERA + and 1.22 WHIP, so I think the Phils got themselves a pretty good deal

[Basedow]

.......

What I don't fully understand is what happens if a team, like the Yankees, signs multiple Type - A picks. The Yankees currently have pick #26 and #29 in the first round. What happens if they sign more than two Type - A Free Agents? How will the team that loses that third Type - A Free Agent be compensated fairly if the Yankees have no more first round picks to cede?


Here's the updated list (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/12/x-free-agents-m.html) of all the FA who have been offered Arbitration via MLBTR


Answering my own question, Keith Law explains the consequences of the multiple TYPE A-B signings:

If a team signs more than one Type A free agent, its picks are parceled out to the "losing" clubs in an order determined by the ratings of the free agents the team signed. For example, Baltimore signed Baez, whose rating was 69.810, and Chad Bradford, whose rating was 62.890. Since Baltimore's first-round pick was protected, the Orioles lost their second-round pick to Atlanta (for Baez) and then their third-round pick to the Mets (for Bradford). If, however, the Orioles were to sign a Type A free agent with a rating higher than Baez's rating, then that player's former club would get Baltimore's second-round pick and Atlanta and the Mets would get the O's third- and fourth-round picks respectively.

The picks in the sandwich round follow the normal draft order, meaning that it takes place in reverse order of finish (but only includes teams that have received extra picks). However, a team that has received two sandwich picks must wait until every team that picks in the round has selected once before it makes its second pick; a team that has received three picks must wait until all teams with two or more picks have selected twice; and so on.

Furthermore he indicates that there are caps on the amount of TYPE A and TYPE B Players that can be signed by one club during the offseason based on the total number of TYPE A and TYPE B players that have filed for free agency.

As best I can tell a total of 64 TYPE A and TYPE B players have filed this off season, and therefore the league will determine what the cap number will be per team. It seems like each team will be allowed a maximum of FOUR TYPE A/TYPE B free agent signings.

[El Mudo]

Sabathia was second in the lig last year in BP's Pitcher Abuse Points index (behind only Lincecum)

Before that he was

26th (2007)

17th (2006)

60th (2005)

And in his first two years he was

38th (2001)

33rd (2002)

Think what you will of the metric, but I think its a good thing that most of his higher rankings have come since he's gotten older, and he didn't have a Prior or Wood like workload when he was in his early 20s. I think Sabathia's as good a candidate as any for a really long deal

[cougarjake13]

ted rogers owner of jays passes away



Jays owner Rogers dead at 75 (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081202&content_id=3698314&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb)

[cougarjake13]

Hampton returning to Astros (http://houston.astros.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081201&content_id=3696729&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou)

[El Mudo]

Hampton returning to Astros (http://houston.astros.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081201&content_id=3696729&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou)

Congrats....who wouldnt want a 35 year old guy who's hurt all the time and has never had a WHIP lower than 1.25


I would LOVE to have Adam Dunn here in DC....We sure could use a guy who averages a 130 OPS+ and 40 HR every year

[K.C.]

Lidge's stats the season before the Phils signed him: 131 ERA + and a 1.25 WHIP (and he's the same age as Wood). Of course he followed that up with an obscene 225 ERA + and 1.22 WHIP, so I think the Phils got themselves a pretty good deal

Oh, the Phils got a ridiculously good deal all things consider.

Off last season, Lidge would have gotten at least 4 yrs/$50 mil. Maybe 55.

[El Mudo]

KRod's stats are ridiculous when you look at them...


The sample size is small because he's a closer, but his career ERA + is 189 (sick) and he had a career high of 264 a few years ago (even sicker). If there's anything about him that worries me, its that his WHIP is trending up (gone up two years in a row)


And if you wanna look at some REALLY ridiculous stats, check out Rivera's...the man's had an ERA + of OVER 300......TWICE including last years, 317 which is just completely mind bogglingly 100% stupidly absurd


I think Rivera just had the greatest season a reliever EVER had last season....the aforementioned 317 ERA +, a .66 WHIP.....so help me God, his WHIP was .66. He walked 6 batters all season....read that again....he walked 6 batters all season
. I can't really argue with Cliff Lee winning the Cy Young, but Rivera CERTAINLY should have finished higher than 5th



Not counting his first season, he's only had an ERA + UNDER 150 once, and that was 2007...his career ERA + is 199, and his career WHIP is 1.02.

I DEFY you to somehow convince me otherwise that Rivera is not only the greatest relief pitcher ever, but one of the top 10 pitchers EVER

[HBox]

Javy Vazquez and Boone Logan to the Braves for 3. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3740201)

I wonder how this affects the Peavy sweepstakes. At first glance it seems that the Braves are pulling out unless San Diego wants Vazquez.

[IMSlacker]

Javy Vazquez and Boone Logan to the Braves for 3. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3740201)

I wonder how this affects the Peavy sweepstakes. At first glance it seems that the Braves are pulling out unless San Diego wants Vazquez.

From what I've read, Peavy has no interest in going to the Braves, and since he has a no trade clause, it won't happen.

[cougarjake13]

I DEFY you to somehow convince me otherwise that Rivera is not only the greatest relief pitcher ever, but one of the top 10 pitchers EVER


b/c he was a yankee his stats are overated




















hahaha i keed you cant argue it

[cougarjake13]

From what I've read, Peavy has no interest in going to the Braves, and since he has a no trade clause, it won't happen.

so what teams are he willing to go to now ??

[foodcourtdruide]

I DEFY you to somehow convince me otherwise that Rivera is not only the greatest relief pitcher ever, but one of the top 10 pitchers EVER

I don't think anyone could argue with Rivera being the best relief pitcher ever, however I always feel weird comparing relievers to starters. It's kinda like comparing a big budget blockbuster like The Dark Knight to a lower budget film like The Visitor.

How do you compare a guy who pitched 4,000+ innings over his career to a guy who barely breaks 1,000? I think of them as totally different positions.

[HBox]

so what teams are he willing to go to now ??

San Diego only apparently.

[cougarjake13]

San Diego only apparently.

but they dont seem to want him

[HBox]

but they dont seem to want him

We gotta keep these crazy kids together.

[PD]

We gotta keep these crazy kids together.

you mean John and Becky Moores?




(owner of Padres, who's divorce is leading to all of this?)

[El Mudo]

I don't think anyone could argue with Rivera being the best relief pitcher ever, however I always feel weird comparing relievers to starters. It's kinda like comparing a big budget blockbuster like The Dark Knight to a lower budget film like The Visitor.

How do you compare a guy who pitched 4,000+ innings over his career to a guy who barely breaks 1,000? I think of them as totally different positions.

Sample size is the main argument I would use against him, but those freakin' stats are just too good to brush aside

[PD]

Dustin Pedroia signed long term.

by the way, If you never heard Rob Dibble, you miss out.

Talking about A-Rod "Outside of his playoff performance, and dating his mother (Madonna) there is nothing you could complain about with him"

:lol:

[K.C.]

I DEFY you to somehow convince me otherwise that Rivera is not only the greatest relief pitcher ever, but one of the top 10 pitchers EVER

It's tough to compare starters and relievers. You'd really have to figure out how many more wins per season, over league average closers, Rivera gave his team and then compare that with Hall of Fame starters vs. league average starters.

Even that would only really give you a sense of who was more important; not necessarily who was a better pitcher.

And that would be really hard to establish, because it's two entirely different roles and situations. Rivera was a terrible starter his first year in the league, but he morphed into the greatest closer in history. I'm sure there are plenty of Hall of Fame starters who would be terrible in a closer's role.

So I don't think there's any way to really definitely answer the pitching part of the question.

In terms of value; I haven't looked at the stats, but I would guess that Rivera's probably Top 15. Top 10 seems a little high to me.

But I wouldn't be shocked if it turned out he was Top 10.

[K.C.]

so what teams are he willing to go to now ??

Sounds like none.

He CAN stay in San Diego.

He's just going to pitch on a terrible team. But who knows...maybe he just likes the place.

What does he care...he already has his money. Maybe being comfortable is more important to him right now.

[foodcourtdruide]

Sample size is the main argument I would use against him, but those freakin' stats are just too good to brush aside

His stats are almost Barry Bonds level insane (.609 OBP!!!!!).

[epo]

The Angels claim to be out of the CC Sabathia game for now: (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/35467159.html)

Angels general manager Tony Reagins told mlb.com that he is not focusing on signing free agent lefty CC Sabathia, as recent reports suggested.

Tom Haudricourt raises an interesting question about this situation:

Obviously, Sabathia and his reps would like some California teams to get involved. But the combination of the sinking economy and other priorities might stop that from happening. So, what happens if it's just the Yankees and Brewers? It's difficult to imagine Sabathia leaving $40 million on the table, though if he truly wanted to play in New York he already would have accepted that offer.

This whole situation just seems weird.

[K.C.]

The Angels claim to be out of the CC Sabathia game for now: (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/35467159.html)



Tom Haudricourt raises an interesting question about this situation:



This whole situation just seems weird.

Take arbitration from the Brewers.

Test the market next year.

[foodcourtdruide]

This whole situation just seems weird.

I don't know, don't you think he's just biding his time, waiting for someone to enter the Yankees atmosphere so they up their offer?

[foodcourtdruide]

Take arbitration from the Brewers.

Test the market next year.

What incentive does he have to test the market next year? He's already getting the most money ever for a pitcher, all he'd be doing is risking potential injury. If I had to guess he'll take the Yankees offer or resign with the Brewers.

[epo]

I don't know, don't you think he's just biding his time, waiting for someone to enter the Yankees atmosphere so they up their offer?

It seems pretty obvious that he wants absolutely nothing to do with pinstripes.

[K.C.]

What incentive does he have to test the market next year? He's already getting the most money ever for a pitcher, all he'd be doing is risking potential injury. If I had to guess he'll take the Yankees offer or resign with the Brewers.

He doesn't want to sign on with the Yankees for 6-7 years, but he thinks he's worth more than the Brewers are offering.

It's a risk, but the guy has already indicated he doesn't necessarily only care about getting top dollar.

If he can wait a year and get a good contract somewhere he actually wants to play, why not?

[cougarjake13]

What incentive does he have to test the market next year? He's already getting the most money ever for a pitcher, all he'd be doing is risking potential injury. If I had to guess he'll take the Yankees offer or resign with the Brewers.

the economy could be better next year

[foodcourtdruide]

He doesn't want to sign on with the Yankees for 6-7 years, but he thinks he's worth more than the Brewers are offering.

It's a risk, but the guy has already indicated he doesn't necessarily only care about getting top dollar.

If he can wait a year and get a good contract somewhere he actually wants to play, why not?

That's a lot of guarenteed money to pass up. Where is the guarentee that he'll get a contract from a team he wants next year, if he hasn't this year? What team do you think he wishes he could go too? I always thought Dodgers: NL/Big Market/West Coast. Think they'll be players if he waits one more year? (I'm not asking you in a confrontationial chest-poke kinda way, just curious about your opinion)

I dunno, something just tells me he'll sign with the Brewers or just take the huge Yankees payday.

[foodcourtdruide]

the economy could be better next year

I'd buy that if he wasn't already being offerred the most money ever for a pitcher.

[K.C.]

That's a lot of guarenteed money to pass up. Where is the guarentee that he'll get a contract from a team he wants next year, if he hasn't this year? What team do you think he wishes he could go too? I always thought Dodgers: NL/Big Market/West Coast. Think they'll be players if he waits one more year? (I'm not asking you in a confrontationial chest-poke kinda way, just curious about your opinion)

I dunno, something just tells me he'll sign with the Brewers or just take the huge Yankees payday.

I have to believe he wanted to go to LA or San Diego, but the Padres quickly became a non-option, and the Dodgers front office is ridiculously indecisive.

Realistically, it would be pretty earth shattering for him to not sign a deal with either the Yankees or Brewers, and take arbitration.

But like Epo said, this whole thing is weird.

There's also a ton of fear in the free agent market right now which is probably scaring teams out of bidding this year.


That said, if I had to guess, he'll take the money from the Yankees and pitch in NY.

[cougarjake13]

I'd buy that if he wasn't already being offerred the most money ever for a pitcher.

better for other teams not named the yankees

[cougarjake13]

are the braves insane ??


theyre offering aj burnett a 5 yr deal worth 140 mil !!!!

[PD]

are the braves insane ??



I hope so.

For any other team I would simply laugh. I still have too many memories of Braves gold to trust this.






I hate the braves still.

[sailor]

i wish the yankees would give cc an ultimatum and then pull their offer off the table. fuck him. no one's coming close. if he doesn't want to come here, fine, i can respect that, but have the balls to just say no. stop dithering.

[K.C.]

i wish the yankees would give cc an ultimatum and then pull their offer off the table. fuck him. no one's coming close. if he doesn't want to come here, fine, i can respect that, but have the balls to just say no. stop dithering.

Teams whose fallback options are potentially Carl Pavano and Brad Penny can't afford to give ultimatums.

It's already looking like the Burnett ship is sailing, if what the Braves reportedly offered him is true.

[K.C.]

are the braves insane ??


theyre offering aj burnett a 5 yr deal worth 140 mil !!!!

Uh....try 5yrs/$80 million.

That's still a lot. A good $16 million per year.

[epo]

Uh....try 5yrs/$80 million.

That's still a lot. A good $16 million per year.

Which should get the market moving......finally.

[PD]

looks like KC got it right;
the article says Braves made 5 year offer to Burnett, but the $140 Million offer was about Sabathia.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2008/12/02/2008-12-02_yankees_watch_as_braves_make_pitch_for_a.html

[HBox]

It's already looking like the Burnett ship is sailing, if what the Braves reportedly offered him is true.

If that's true I am forever grateful to the Braves.

[cougarjake13]

Uh....try 5yrs/$80 million.

That's still a lot. A good $16 million per year.



yeh it was espn


they threw up that graphic of 5 -140

they later realized their mistake and even joked about saying aj dont have a heart attack reaching for the phone

[El Mudo]

His stats are almost Barry Bonds level insane (.609 OBP!!!!!).

My favourite Barry Lamar Bonds season is the one you mention there, with the .609 OBP, and the .812 SLG to give him the 1.421 OPS :lol::lol: and an OPS + of 263


Hahahaha....he was walked intentionally 120 times that year:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[foodcourtdruide]

My favourite Barry Lamar Bonds season is the one you mention there, with the .609 OBP, and the .812 SLG to give him the 1.421 OPS :lol::lol: and an OPS + of 263


Hahahaha....he was walked intentionally 120 times that year:lol::lol::lol::lol:

It is a mind-boggling season. 1.421 OPS. I don't even know how to comprehend that.

[K.C.]

The stove was sizzling today.

-Phillies make an offer on Derek Lowe
-Giants sign Renteria and are mulling a bid on Sabathia
-Jack Wilson almost traded to Detroit
-Red Sox announce the signing of Junichi Tazawa
-Rumors starting to surface that the market may force Manny to take arbitration from the Dodgers.

[badorties]

The stove was sizzling today.

-Phillies make an offer on Derek Lowe
-Giants sign Renteria and are mulling a bid on Sabathia
-Jack Wilson almost traded to Detroit
-Red Sox announce the signing of Junichi Tazawa
-Rumors starting to surface that the market may force Manny to take arbitration from the Dodgers.

not enough sizzle ... it's been such a quiet (and long) off-season so far, i can't believe how often i search for any updates or news

i hope the meetings next week have a lot of pop

[El Mudo]

Lowe would be GREAT for the Phils.... when Sinkerball pitchers are on, theyre money (see Wang, Chien-Ming), and he's coming off his best season in a long time. He'll never get back to how good he was in 02 (.97 WHIP, 177 ERA +), but i think he's a real solid middle of the rotation guy at this point

[K.C.]

Lowe would be GREAT for the Phils.... when Sinkerball pitchers are on, theyre money (see Wang, Chien-Ming), and he's coming off his best season in a long time. He'll never get back to how good he was in 02 (.97 WHIP, 177 ERA +), but i think he's a real solid middle of the rotation guy at this point



Hamels, Myers, Lowe, Blanton...

That's a pretty damn good rotation.

[cougarjake13]

not enough sizzle ... it's been such a quiet (and long) off-season so far, i can't believe how often i search for any updates or news

i hope the meetings next week have a lot of pop

isnt it usually after the winter meetings when things start rolling ??

[PD]

I think Milton Bradley could be an interesting pickup.

I heard someone on XM (maybe Kevin Kennedy) mentioning the cubs as a possibility

[cougarjake13]

I think Milton Bradley could be an interesting pickup.

I heard someone on XM (maybe Kevin Kennedy) mentioning the cubs as a possibility



he doesnt stick in one place long does he ??


he's the new reggie sanders

[Big_Joe]

If that's true I am forever grateful to the Braves.

yes, same thing I thought when I saw this today. I know the Yankees said they don't want to go over 4 year for Burnett but I hope this doesn't push them to get into a bidding war.Burnett to New York is basically the second coming of Pavano.

[epo]

Greg Maddux to retire (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3748249&campaign=rss&source=MLBHeadlines)

Greg Maddux has thrown his last pitch.

The four-time Cy Young winner will announce his retirement Monday at the baseball winter meetings, near his home in Las Vegas.

With the disaster that is Roger Clemens, Maddux should now be considered the best pitcher of his generation.

[brettmojo]

Greg Maddux to retire (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3748249&campaign=rss&source=MLBHeadlines)



With the disaster that is Roger Clemens, Maddux should now be considered the best pitcher of his generation.
Clemens personal and off the field life is a disaster, you can't shit on what he did on the field.

I don't care if he did steroids or not. You can't single him out when everyone else was doing it and don't get shit on as well.

[K.C.]

Clemens personal and off the field life is a disaster, you can't shit on what he did on the field.

I don't care if he did steroids or not. You can't single him out when everyone else was doing it and don't get shit on as well.

I think Maddux is the pitcher of his generation even if you don't factor Clemens doing steroids.

His numbers in the mid-to-late 90s are sick, and that was when every hitter was juiced.

[epo]

Apparently Randy Johnson has 6 suitors: (http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/131891)

Randy Johnson may have a chance to win his 300th game in the NL West after all. The Diamondbacks' division foes San Francisco and the Los Angeles Dodgers are among the teams that have inquired about Johnson's availability for the 2009 season, according to major league sources familiar with the situation.

Milwaukee, Oakland, Texas and the Chicago Cubs also have expressed varying degrees of interest, sources said.

Johnson has told friends he has wants to play for a contender in 2009, and that he has three goals - to play in another World Series, to surpass 5,000 strikeouts and to win 300 games

[cougarjake13]

Randy Johnson may have a chance to win his 300th game in the NL West after all. The Diamondbacks' division foes San Francisco and the Los Angeles Dodgers are among the teams that have inquired about Johnson's availability for the 2009 season, according to major league sources familiar with the situation.

Milwaukee, Oakland, Texas and the Chicago Cubs also have expressed varying degrees of interest, sources said.

Johnson has told friends he has wants to play for a contender in 2009, and that he has three goals - to play in another World Series, to surpass 5,000 strikeouts and to win 300 games



how close is he 5k ??


and i'd eliminate the giants,texas and maybe the a's if he wants to play for a contender

[brettmojo]

I wonder if Johnson might stick around and relieve for a few seasons.

His stuff could be devastating, even now, fr an inning or two if he just airs it out.

[PD]

I think Maddux is the pitcher of his generation even if you don't factor Clemens doing steroids.

His numbers in the mid-to-late 90s are sick, and that was when every hitter was juiced.

It's close.
As a human being I can root for Maddux more than Clemens, but you can't deny Clemens had dominant years; however Maddux didn't have any bad years in the middle of his career like Clemens did.

1995 - Maddux was 19-2, 10 complete games and a WHIP of 0.811
pretty amazing. (and came in 3rd in MVP voting, ahead of Mike Piazza and his .346 ave)

[badorties]

Randy Johnson may have a chance to win his 300th game in the NL West after all. The Diamondbacks' division foes San Francisco and the Los Angeles Dodgers are among the teams that have inquired about Johnson's availability for the 2009 season, according to major league sources familiar with the situation.

Milwaukee, Oakland, Texas and the Chicago Cubs also have expressed varying degrees of interest, sources said.

Johnson has told friends he has wants to play for a contender in 2009, and that he has three goals - to play in another World Series, to surpass 5,000 strikeouts and to win 300 games

how close is he 5k ??

and i'd eliminate the giants, texas and maybe the a's if he wants to play for a contender

career stats ... W/L: 295-160; ERA: 3.26; K: 4,789

[cougarjake13]

career stats ... W/L: 295-160; ERA: 3.26; K: 4,789




so he needs 211 and he's hasnt reached that total since 2005

he had 173 last year so he could get close as he only pitched 30 games last year



so it may be april 2010 when he gets it , unless he pitches all 36 starts and continues his current rate of k's per game

[epo]

Brewers may add a sixth year to Sabathia offer, but the market is still wide open: (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/35653364.html)

These reports continue to fly, so who knows what's true and what's not. It does appear that Yankees general manager Brian Cashman will meet face-to-face with Sabathia and his representatives Sunday in Las Vegas, before the start of the winter meetings. Sabathia supposedly is attending the De La Hoya fight tonight in Vegas.

The way I read that meeting is that Cashman is trying to gauge Sabathia's willingness to come to New York, so he can move on to other things if CC doesn't really want to play there. I don't think it means a New York deal is imminent, as some have suggested.

Sabathia supposedly wants to take his time with this important decision and is believed to be waiting for a legitimate offer from the Angels or Giants.

[Creepo]

I say the Brew Crew give up the dream and go after Burnett.

[foodcourtdruide]

Am I the only one that is reminded of the early-90's Mets with the current situation with the Yankees? Just sign all the best free-agents you can immediately, instead of building a solid team over a number of years.

[cougarjake13]

Am I the only one that is reminded of the early-90's Mets with the current situation with the Yankees? Just sign all the best free-agents you can immediately, instead of building a solid team over a number of years.

nope ive thought it too


also those yankee teams before george got banned for 2 yrs

[epo]

Apparently Seattle is in the market to deal & deal big (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/mariners/2008477921_mari07.html)

One year later, a new GM and humbled organization head to this city's Bellagio Hotel with a much different winter meetings agenda. The Bedard trade has indeed strengthened the team's pitching depth. But novice GM Jack Zduriencik will likely need to trade some of those arms to help his power-deprived offense avoid another disastrous collapse in 2009.

"Open-minded is, I think, the best way to put it," Zduriencik said of how he's approaching these meetings, which run Monday through Thursday. "It takes two to tango. I'm not in the mood to give anyone away. I'm in the mood to improve this ballclub."

"They look like a team that needs to make a blockbuster trade," said a veteran major-league scout. "You look at what their needs are — hitting. And you look at what they have to deal — pitching. It shouldn't be too hard to find a match. Do that, and a lot of their problems could go away in a hurry."

[cougarjake13]

is ibanez still on the team ??

[spadanko]

Jermaine Dye traded to the Reds for homer Bailey

[cougarjake13]

Jermaine Dye traded to the Reds for homer Bailey

wow

and the dealing begins

[TheGameHHH]

Vegas should be the spot for the winter meetings every year. If that happened I think there's potential for a once every 5 years drunken debacle of a trade a la Williams/DiMaggio. It would make things very entertaining.

[epo]

Jermaine Dye traded to the Reds for homer Bailey

The White Sox deny the Dye for Bailey rumor. (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-081207-chicago-white-sox-winter-meetings,0,7672373.story)

LAS VEGAS - While the White Sox awaited word on whether free-agent Orlando Cabrera would decline their salary arbitration offer, two trade scenarios were shot down Sunday night on the eve of the winter meetings.

A source familiar with the talks rejected a report in the Dayton Daily News quoting a "major-league source close to the situation" that a deal to send Sox right fielder Jermaine Dye to Cincinnati for pitcher Homer Bailey "was done and would be announced this week."

The source said the Reds were reluctant to take on Dye's $11.5 million salary even though they need a right-handed hitter of his caliber. The source added that the Sox were seeking more prospects besides Bailey, who was 0-6 with a 7.93 ERA in eight starts and was 4-7 with a 4.77 ERA at Triple-A Louisville.

We need accuracy in our crazy trades!

[Big_Joe]

is ibanez still on the team ??

He;'s a free agent.

[HBox]

The White Sox deny the Dye for Bailey rumor. (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-081207-chicago-white-sox-winter-meetings,0,7672373.story)



We need accuracy in our crazy trades!

Yeah, that sounded way too crazy.

[epo]

According to the Detroit Free Press:

Tigers and Rangers making significant progress on possible trade (http://www.freep.com/article/20081207/SPORTS02/81207045/1050)

The Tigers and Texas Rangers have made significant progress toward a trade that would send catcher Gerald Laird to Detroit and pitching prospect Guillermo Moscoso to the Rangers.

It’s not clear if the Tigers would include other prospects in the deal.

Moscoso, a 25-year-old right-hander, made a splash in the Detroit farm system this year by going 5-4 with a 2.70 ERA in 21 games (12 starts) between Class A Lakeland and Double-A Erie.

One of those "boring" potential moves that can really help a club. I know that Texas has been trying to move a catcher or two off the roster.

[epo]

Sabathia's agent to meet with Yankees & Red Sox: (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/35691829.html)

It has been reported that the New York Yankees and Boston Red Sox planned to meet with CC Sabathia's agent, Greg Genske, prior to the start of the winter meetings in Las Vegas tomorrow.

It sounds like the agent is trying to play the Yankees & Red Sox against each other...which is fine, but I thought CC wanted to play in the NL and in California.

This whole thing is weird.

[El Mudo]

Greg Maddux to retire (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3748249&campaign=rss&source=MLBHeadlines)



With the disaster that is Roger Clemens, Maddux should now be considered the best pitcher of his generation.

Hi....remember me?

http://nbcsportsmedia3.msnbc.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/060626/060626_martinez_vmed_5p.widec.jpg

[El Mudo]

And speaking of Pete, I think he had one of the greatest pitching seasons ever in 2000


The man's ERA + was 291 and he had a WHIP of .73

[spadanko]

According to Paul Hagen of the Philadelphia Daily News, the Phillies have inquired on Twins outfielder Delmon Young. Hagen believes the Twins would want shortstop prospect Jason Donald in return.

[midwestjeff]

http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081208&content_id=3706103&vkey=news_stl&fext=.jsp&c_id=stl

I, for one, think Burnett would look great in red.

[PD]

NEW YORK (AP) -- Former second baseman Joe Gordon was elected to the Hall of Fame by the Veterans Committee on Monday, while another panel shut out the likes of Joe Torre, Ron Santo and Gil Hodges.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/12/08/gordon.hof.ap/index.html

I like the Gordon selection, but hate that Hodge, once again, won't make it.

[K.C.]

According to Paul Hagen of the Philadelphia Daily News, the Phillies have inquired on Twins outfielder Delmon Young. Hagen believes the Twins would want shortstop prospect Jason Donald in return.

Yes, please!

[epo]

Brewers still in Sabathia chase: (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/35756694.html)

Brewers general manager Doug Melvin just returned from his meeting with the agents of free agent left-hander CC Sabathia.

Amazingly, after five weeks of waiting, the meeting took less than a half-hour. I asked Melvin point-blank if the Brewers are still in the running to sign Sabathia and he didn't hesitate with his succinct answer.

"Yes," he said.

Melvin and assistant Gord Ash met at The Wynn, a nearby hotel, with lead agent Greg Genske and assistants Brian Peters and Scott Parker. He wouldn't reveal details of the brief meeting but said there was an agreement to talk again later in the week.

If that meant that Melvin might boost his offer of five years and $100 million, he wouldn't say. Melvin did laugh at reports that surfaced over the last 24 hours claiming the Brewers were ready to add a sixth year and "opt out" clauses that would allow Sabathia to get out of his contract if so desired.

Is it me or is this the weirdest free agent ever?

[epo]

CC wants to be a Dodger: (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/35768214.html)

The CC Sabathia saga just gets funnier and funner. Now comes this report that he told Dodgers general manager Ned Colletti that he'd like to pitch for his team (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081208&content_id=3706479&vkey=hotstove2008&fext=.jsp).

This just confirms what we've known all along, that Sabathia is desperate to get a legitimate bid from a West Coast team.

Whether the Dodgers are able to put together a legitimate bid for Sabathia is doubtful. They have all kinds of holes to fill in their lineup and that would be difficult to do if they commit all of their available money to Sabathia.

This is why Sabathia won't say yes or no to the Brewers and Yankees, who have the only legitimate bids in. He desperately wants the Dodgers or Angels or Giants to get involved.

Basically, he doesn't want to play in New York and the Brewers' offer isn't enticing enough to prompt him to stop California dreamin.'

And now some of the obvious reason for the weirdness is revealed.

[brettmojo]

CC wants to be a Dodger: (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/35768214.html)
Then the Yanks should yank their offer immediately and start focusing elsewhere.

[cougarjake13]

the yanks arent strapped for cash, esp with all the payroll that came off the books

they could leave that offer out there until he signs, either with them or someone else

[K.C.]

Rumored deal in the works per CBS Sportsline:

Cubs get:
SP - Jake Peavy (SD)

Padres get:
SP - Sean Marshall (CHI)
RP - Angel Guzman (could be bumped up to OF - Felix Pie) (CHI)
SP - J.A. Happ (PHI)
C - Chris Coste (PHI)

Phillies get:
IF/OF - Mark DeRosa (CHI)

[Knowledged_one]

Orioles reds possible deal
ramon hernandez for ryan freel it looks like the matt wieters era is about to begin

[cougarjake13]

Rumored deal in the works per CBS Sportsline:

Cubs get:
SP - Jake Peavy (SD)

Padres get:
SP - Sean Marshall (CHI)
RP - Angel Guzman (could be bumped up to OF - Felix Pie) (CHI)
SP - J.A. Happ (PHI)
C - Chris Coste (PHI)

Phillies get:
IF/OF - Mark DeRosa (CHI)


is derosa worth both happ and coste ??

[brettmojo]

the yanks arent strapped for cash, esp with all the payroll that came off the books

they could leave that offer out there until he signs, either with them or someone else
I'm not worried about the cash, it's just embarrassing. They're desperate after Sabathia like Jennifer Aniston after any guy she's ever been with.

[cougarjake13]

I'm not worried about the cash, it's just embarrassing. They're desperate after Sabathia like Jennifer Aniston after any guy she's ever been with.



ok


how long has the offer been out there ??

[Big_Joe]

ok


how long has the offer been out there ??

Think its coming up on a month. Maybe 3 weeks?

I would also like to see the Yankees move on. He's not going to get a better deal. Yankees should just say screw it, go after Tex and some pitching. I say make Lowe your number one pitching priority. Burnett had a great year but the chances of that happening again are slim. Last thing the Yankees need is another overpaid injury prone starter. After that I say you resign Pettitte and maybe take a risk on Sheets or even Brad Penny. But signing one of those two I would have hughs waiting in the wings in case either of them when down with an injury.

[cougarjake13]

Think its coming up on a month. Maybe 3 weeks?

I would also like to see the Yankees move on. He's not going to get a better deal. Yankees should just say screw it, go after Tex and some pitching. I say make Lowe your number one pitching priority. Burnett had a great year but the chances of that happening again are slim. Last thing the Yankees need is another overpaid injury prone starter. After that I say you resign Pettitte and maybe take a risk on Sheets or even Brad Penny. But signing one of those two I would have hughs waiting in the wings in case either of them when down with an injury.

i know money is no option is yankeeland but i think it makes more sense to take the money offered to cc and spread it out amongst tex and 1 or 2 pitchers


its not like the yanks are 1 pitcher away from being all set for a ws title

[HBox]

i know money is no option is yankeeland but i think it makes more sense to take the money offered to cc and spread it out amongst tex and 1 or 2 pitchers


its not like the yanks are 1 pitcher away from being all set for a ws title

A rotation topped by Sabathia, Wang and Chamberlain is WS caliber.

[Big_Joe]

i know money is no option is yankeeland but i think it makes more sense to take the money offered to cc and spread it out amongst tex and 1 or 2 pitchers


its not like the yanks are 1 pitcher away from being all set for a ws title

Thats pretty much what I was saying...

[El Mudo]

NEW YORK (AP) -- Former second baseman Joe Gordon was elected to the Hall of Fame by the Veterans Committee on Monday, while another panel shut out the likes of Joe Torre, Ron Santo and Gil Hodges.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/12/08/gordon.hof.ap/index.html

I like the Gordon selection, but hate that Hodge, once again, won't make it.


His career OPS + is only 120....not good enough

[PD]

looks like K-rod will take 3 yrs from Mets.
He's got big city guts, but that WHiP isn't great.

[Snoogans]

i cant wait for the first time this guy blows a few saves and everyone kills him. I think the best thing that could ever happen is KRod comes in and blows his first 3 saves. OOOOOOO that would be fuckin hilarious

[El Mudo]

looks like K-rod will take 3 yrs from Mets.
He's got big city guts, but that WHiP isn't great.


Its a decent WHIP, but i would be more worried that its gone up every single year he's been in the lig, except for the 05-06 seasons. That's not a good thing

[Snoogans]

he got away with it being on a great team in a terrible division. I have a feeling we are about to see Armando Benitez 2.0

Just load the bases up, then worry about gettin outs

[razorboy]

Yes, please!

As a Rays fan let me say he absolutely isn't worth the trouble. No amount of veteran leadership will be able to keep that locker room cancer in remission, especially with a manager with Manuel's style.

[PD]

he got away with it being on a great team in a terrible division. I have a feeling we are about to see Armando Benitez 2.0

Just load the bases up, then worry about gettin outs

it ain't gonna be that bad.

He's no Mariano (or close), and Wood is better, but he'll be OK (but not great)
Benitez has/had no guts. K-Rod - if he has a problem it will be stuff.

[Snoogans]

it ain't gonna be that bad.

He's no Mariano (or close), and Wood is better, but he'll be OK (but not great)
Benitez has/had no guts. K-Rod - it's all about his stuff, not his head.

understood, but come with that shaky stuff in NY and the fans will easily get into your head. Thats the one thing you just can NEVER be sure about until it happens, how he will react going from a place where NOBODY gives a fuck to a place where they will boo him for throwin a bad warm up pitch

[KingModem]

As a Rays fan let me say he absolutely isn't worth the trouble. No amount of veteran leadership will be able to keep that locker room cancer in remission, especially with a manager with Manuel's style.

A year in Minnesota will make any player a better player. Delmon is growing up slowly but surely, and he will be a dominant force in a couple of years.

A little coaching with his fielding, and a little coaching to harness his true power, and he will be an All-Star.

We are just faced with too many good outfielders at one time right now, and we are a small payroll team that cant do it.

[PD]

understood, but come with that shaky stuff in NY and the fans will easily get into your head. Thats the one thing you just can NEVER be sure about until it happens, how he will react going from a place where NOBODY gives a fuck to a place where they will boo him for throwin a bad warm up pitch
that's why I was worried about Fuentes; at least K-Rod has pitched in big games, and even though LA/Anaheim isn't NY, it's not Denver or StL either.

[Snoogans]

that's why I was worried about Fuentes; at least K-Rod has pitched in big games, and even though LA/Anaheim isn't NY, it's not Denver or StL either.

see i think its worse. Cause at least in st louis or denver, people give a shit.

Really, NO ONE cares about the sports teams in LA except the Lakers, and even then they only care when they are good

[PD]

see i think its worse. Cause at least in st louis or denver, people give a shit.

Really, NO ONE cares about the sports teams in LA except the Lakers, and even then they only care when they are good

well, that is questionable. Yes, LA is all laid back and Lakers, but they do get press; in StLouis its all Rah Rah for the Home Team; Denver is I think a 1 paper town who definitely only cares about the Broncos.

We will see - it's not big money, and it's not big choices.

then again, I never thought Lidge would rebound, so what do I know.

[PD]

I had to share this, found on a blog:

WFAN’s Mike Francesca, a.k.a., ‘the biggest Yankee fan,’ is on air during his popular drive-time radio show, freaking out about Sabathia.

Basically, Francesa believes Sabathia is embarrassing the Yankees, by taking so long to accept their six-year, $140 million deal.

“Shut up,” Francesa is saying, “Enough already, why does this guy need to be sold on the Yankees.”

According to Francesa, “Sabathia is not Johan Santana,” the Yankees should give up at this point and move on.

He has received several phone calls from listeners who feel the same with, with one saying, “He should be honored to be on the Yankees. If he doesn’t get it, then go home.”

now personally I think this reflects upon Francessa, and I don't know how many Yankee fans feel this way but I find it damn funny.

[HBox]

I had to share this, found on a blog:



now personally I think this reflects upon Francessa, and I don't know how many Yankee fans feel this way but I find it damn funny.

A lot of Yankee fans think that way, that it is a fucking privilege to play there and get booed by them. What they have on their side however is that if you play for the Yanks you are probably getting paid more than your are worth.

It's still quite embarrassing.

[PD]

MILWAUKEE (AP) -- Infielder Mike Lamb agreed to a one-year contract with the Milwaukee Brewers on Tuesday, setting up a potential platoon with Bill Hall at third base next season.

[hexy68]

ESPN reports K Rod to the Mets 3 year $37 mill

[PD]

Rob dibble on K-Rod
"Mets are getting more than they think they are; he's a bulldog. All the Angels people I've talked to- including Torii Hunter - love this kid".

Angels can afford to move on; hopefully that was all it was.

Dibble on idea that Krod and Fuentes are equal "Oh Please!"

they also said Indians are close on Kerry Wood

[hexy68]

Rob dibble on K-Rod
"Mets are getting more than they think they are; he's a bulldog. All the Angels people I've talked to- including Torii Hunter - love this kid".

Angels can afford to move on; hopefully that was all it was.

Dibble on idea that Krod and Fuentes are equal "Oh Please!"

they also said Indians are close on Kerry Wood

you're listening to "The Show" too huh PD :thumbup:

[PD]

you're listening to "The Show" too huh PD :thumbup:

yup; flipped as soon as R&F over:thumbup:

[hexy68]

with the exception of inter-league play, has K Rod faced National league hitters?

[PD]

with the exception of inter-league play, has K Rod faced National league hitters?

He's been with Angels since he came up, so I guess not.
reportedly now the 4th year is a vesting option, which makes sense.

in NY Post, Scoscia and Hunter said lots o nice things.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12092008/sports/mets/former_mates_praise_k_rod_143410.htm

[spadanko]

WELCOME TO QUEENS K-ROD!!!

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

[K.C.]

Rob dibble on K-Rod
"Mets are getting more than they think they are; he's a bulldog. All the Angels people I've talked to- including Torii Hunter - love this kid".

Angels can afford to move on; hopefully that was all it was.

Dibble on idea that Krod and Fuentes are equal "Oh Please!"

they also said Indians are close on Kerry Wood

I don't think anyone would suggest Fuentes was as good as K-Rod. Most people thought he was more affordable which is why there was a lot of buzz.

I'm not the biggest K-Rod fan, and he's not the best closer in baseball, despite the saves, but he's a very good closer, and a big, big pickup for the Mets.

Met fans should just temper their expectations. He's likely not going to be what Lidge was last season. But he's better (and more durable) than Wagner.

All in all...he's a key piece. But not the final piece.

[epo]

A lot of Yankee fans think that way, that it is a fucking privilege to play there and get booed by them. What they have on their side however is that if you play for the Yanks you are probably getting paid more than your are worth.

It's still quite embarrassing.

Rumor is that CC has turned down the Yankees yet not Milwaukee. He obviously thinks pinstripes stink.

[Kevin]

Rumor is that CC has turned down the Yankees yet not Milwaukee. He obviously thinks pinstripes stink.

He would be stupid to turn the Yankees down right now. I don't think he will sign, but he hasn't "turned them down"

[cougarjake13]

I don't think anyone would suggest Fuentes was as good as K-Rod. Most people thought he was more affordable which is why there was a lot of buzz.

I'm not the biggest K-Rod fan, and he's not the best closer in baseball, despite the saves, but he's a very good closer, and a big, big pickup for the Mets.

Met fans should just temper their expectations. He's likely not going to be what Lidge was last season. But he's better (and more durable) than Wagner.

All in all...he's a key piece. But not the final piece.


as long as he doesnt blow as many saves as our bullpen did last year then its a good deal

[K.C.]

as long as he doesnt blow as many saves as our bullpen did last year then its a good deal

Which is why it's a good move. Because that's impossible to accomplish.

But he did blow seven last season.

...and Michael Wilbon just invoked the name of Bobby Thigpen. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/thigpbo01.shtml)

My biggest concern about K-Rod is his elevating WHIP and his declining velocity.

But like has been said...if the Mets had a semblance of a closer the last couple years, they make the playoffs both years.

[cougarjake13]

Which is why it's a good move. Because that's impossible to accomplish.

But he did blow seven last season.

...and Michael Wilbon just invoked the name of Bobby Thigpen. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/thigpbo01.shtml)

My biggest concern about K-Rod is his elevating WHIP and his declining velocity.

But like has been said...if the Mets had a semblance of a closer the last couple years, they make the playoffs both years.


last yr yeh but 07 was more the offense and starters down the stretch im sure the pen blew a couple but 07 was pretty much a total team collapse


but a 3 yr deal isnt bad and he blew 7 last yr but if he was a met and only blew 7, depending on what the rest of pen still does maybe te mets make the playoffs

[K.C.]

but a 3 yr deal isnt bad and he blew 7 last yr but if he was a met and only blew 7, depending on what the rest of pen still does maybe te mets make the playoffs

The Mets got an excellent deal.

That's almost half of what he was initially asking, and less than they gave Wagner.

Really gives them enough flexibility to make another fairly significant move.

I'll be interested to see which starter they sign. I'm already penciling Niese in as the #5, because it'd be crazy to commit significant dollars to two starters in this economic climate, but they SHOULD sign one decent one.

[foodcourtdruide]

not crazy about k-rod either, but I like the deal. Three years isn't so bad and they didn't completely overpay. Also, he's clearly the best closer available, I just hope the Mets don't think they're done now.

[Marc with a c]

how many games until he isn't allowed to do that stupid end of game cheer?

[brettmojo]

I had to share this, found on a blog:



now personally I think this reflects upon Francessa, and I don't know how many Yankee fans feel this way but I find it damn funny.
My personal feeling is that he isn't embarrassing them, the Yankees are embarrassing themselves and I believe it's only happening because they feel they missed out with Santana and they are trying to make up for it with Sabathia.

As far as pitchers go Sabathia isn't even in the top 5 in the league right now and he's barely in the top 10 if at all.

[epo]

He would be stupid to turn the Yankees down right now. I don't think he will sign, but he hasn't "turned them down"

It's not like I made it up....from the San Jose Mercury News beat writer (http://blogs.mercurynews.com/extrabaggs/2008/12/09/giants-talk-to-sabathias-camp-yanks-rumored-to-be-out/):

UPDATE: An executive close to the CC Sabathia talks told me the perception is that the Brewers are emerging as the frontrunner.

It’s been confirmed to me that the Giants had discussions with CC Sabathia’s camp last night, and they expect to have face-to-face meetings with the left-hander in San Francisco after the winter meetings.

It sure must’ve have been a productive discussion, because word is that Sabathia has declined the Yankees’ six-year, $140 million offer. (I must stress that’s unconfirmed, but talk is spreading fast. If true, look for the Yanks to get hyper-aggressive on A.J. Burnett.)

I’ve been told by a reliable source that the Giants don’t necessarily need to clear payroll to sign Sabathia, though they’ll have to get creative with the money. It’s possible the Giants could seek to defer a sizable chunk of the contract beyond 2017, when they finish paying off the debt service on AT&T Park.

[Kevin]

It's not like I made it up....from the San Jose Mercury News beat writer (http://blogs.mercurynews.com/extrabaggs/2008/12/09/giants-talk-to-sabathias-camp-yanks-rumored-to-be-out/):

Well, if its in the newspaper, IT MUST BE TRUE!

They have never been wrong before.:unsure:

[epo]

Well, if its in the newspaper, IT MUST BE TRUE!

They have never been wrong before.:unsure:

Good thing I said it was fact......oh wait:

Rumor is that CC has turned down the Yankees yet not Milwaukee. He obviously thinks pinstripes stink.

[PD]

they discussed on MLB/XM and on Michael Kay's show about CC.
There is a prevailing opinion that he hasn't "officially" turned down the Yankees, but he did tell them he probably wasn't going there;
it is in nobody's best interest to make that official;
for CC, it's better if other teams think the 140 mil offer out there, and for the Yankees, if everyone is sure CC isnt going there, the AJ Burnett/Derek Lowe, etc price goes up.

Speaking of Lowe, I'm curious with the kind of deal he winds up with;
he's perfect for a #2, but he's getting up there in age- and a 4 yr deal is tough.

as for Mets starters, I think 1 solid starter plus someone high risk/high reward to compete with Niese.

[Knowledged_one]

Maybe cc is realizing what many others in the country know and that is that the yankees are on a down trend and he doesnt want to have to fight the rays and sox to make the playoffs

[Knowledged_one]

My personal feeling is that he isn't embarrassing them, the Yankees are embarrassing themselves and I believe it's only happening because they feel they missed out with Santana and they are trying to make up for it with Sabathia.

As far as pitchers go Sabathia isn't even in the top 5 in the league right now and he's barely in the top 10 if at all.

im convinced you are bdc with that comment , he scorns your team so hes barely top ten by the yankees own offer they even consider him a top pitcher

[K.C.]

they discussed on MLB/XM and on Michael Kay's show about CC.
There is a prevailing opinion that he hasn't "officially" turned down the Yankees, but he did tell them he probably wasn't going there;
it is in nobody's best interest to make that official;
for CC, it's better if other teams think the 140 mil offer out there, and for the Yankees, if everyone is sure CC isnt going there, the AJ Burnett/Derek Lowe, etc price goes up.

Speaking of Lowe, I'm curious with the kind of deal he winds up with;
he's perfect for a #2, but he's getting up there in age- and a 4 yr deal is tough.

as for Mets starters, I think 1 solid starter plus someone high risk/high reward to compete with Niese.

He'll likely get four guaranteed.

The Yanks and Phils appear to be the only two teams that have made offers on him. A couple rumors were saying 5 yrs/$80 mil, but I find that hard to believe.

My guess would be something like 4yrs /$60 mil, with a fifth year option that would bump it up to 5 yrs / $75 mil.

Lowe made himself a lot of money towards the end of last season. He's also arguably better in every capacity, except age, than Burnett, as well.

[K.C.]

Maybe cc is realizing what many others in the country know and that is that the yankees are on a down trend and he doesnt want to have to fight the rays and sox to make the playoffs

I would absolutely love it if he spurns the pinstripes.

But I've gone through this before with Jim Thome. Seldom do guys leave money on the table. Thome went on and on about how he loved the Indians and didn't want to leave, and was willing to take less money to stay, and then eventually took the Phils' larger offer back in '03.

So I'm skeptical...especially when it comes to players taking less money.

[Knowledged_one]

I would absolutely love it if he spurns the pinstripes.

But I've gone through this before with Jim Thome. Seldom do guys leave money on the table. Thome went on and on about how he loved the Indians and didn't want to leave, and was willing to take less money to stay, and then eventually took the Phils' larger offer back in '03.

So I'm skeptical...especially when it comes to players taking less money.

but think if he does spurn them saying its not about the money and with this current economy he would be lauded as a hero especially if he signs with the brewers

[brettmojo]

Maybe cc is realizing what many others in the country know and that is that the yankees are on a down trend and he doesnt want to have to fight the rays and sox to make the playoffs

The team with a brand new stadium and basically unlimited payroll. Yeah, real down trend. One missed post season doesn't a trend make.

im convinced you are bdc with that comment , he scorns your team so hes barely top ten by the yankees own offer they even consider him a top pitcher
He's the top pitcher AVAILABLE... It's arguable whether or not he's one of the top 5 in baseball. The only reason he's getting this ridiculous offer is because the Yanks are desperate, they have money to spend, they lost out on Santana and he's the best available.

Is he better than Santana? Lee? Linecum? Halladay? Hamels? Sheets? If not then he's top ten at best.

And like I said I don't care if he turns the offer down. I don't care either way whether they sign him or not. The only disdain I have is for the Yankees for embarrassing themselves by throwing this much money out there right off the bat showing their desperation. They feel they fucked up last year by not trading for Santana, they got burned trying to go with their home grown talent and now they are going 180 degrees the other way. That's what burns me. Once again they are doing what they were doing from 2001-2006 throwing money money money at the biggest names they can thinking an All-Star team wins championships. Didn't really work then but apparently they think it'll work now.

[TheGameHHH]

The team with a brand new stadium and basically unlimited payroll. Yeah, real down trend. One missed post season doesn't a trend make.


He's the top pitcher AVAILABLE... It's arguable whether or not he's one of the top 5 in baseball. The only reason he's getting this ridiculous offer is because the Yanks are desperate, they have money to spend, they lost out on Santana and he's the best available.

Is he better than Santana? Lee? Linecum? Halladay? Hamels? Sheets? If not then he's top ten at best.

And like I said I don't care if he turns the offer down. I don't care either way whether they sign him or not. The only disdain I have is for the Yankees for embarrassing themselves by throwing this much money out there right off the bat showing their desperation. They feel they fucked up last year by not trading for Santana, they got burned trying to go with their home grown talent and now they are going 180 degrees the other way. That's what burns me. Once again they are doing what they were doing from 2001-2006 throwing money money money at the biggest names they can thinking an All-Star team wins championships. Didn't really work then but apparently they think it'll work now.

No, Yes, So Far, No, Yes, Yes

[Knowledged_one]

Also the orioles may be the third team in the cubs padres peavy deal
also game good point on lincecum as they were saying the same about zito after the first few years

[K.C.]

There's only six LEGIT aces in baseball right now.

-Halladay, Santana, Sabathia, Webb, Hamels, Lincecum.

Dice-K and Cliff Lee had legit ace seasons last year, but past struggles kind of make me want to see one more good ace quality season before putting them on the list.

So if you have the opportunity to get one of the precious few legitimate aces in baseball, you take it...no questions asked.



EDIT: Forgot Peavy.

[Knowledged_one]

Not if you are bdc v2.0 because you barely think cc is top ten

[Knowledged_one]

Kc what about oswalt i would say he was but has slipped some

[K.C.]

Kc what about oswalt i would say he was but has slipped some

Too injury prone. Same reason I would no longer consider Beckett a legit ace.

They both have the stuff, but they're too fragile.

For the record, though, when he's on and healthy, Oswalt has some of the nastiest stuff in baseball.

[epo]

Is he better than Santana? Lee? Linecum? Halladay? Hamels? Sheets? If not then he's top ten at best.



You sound like the spurned high school guy..."I didn't like her anyways. Her mom is fat so she'll be that way too. Plus she wears too much makeup!"

Seriously, Sabathia is a workhorse ace. Those guys are very hard to find.

[K.C.]

The Angels are beginning to recognize that they will not be the high bidder for free-agent first baseman Mark Teixeira, a development that could put them firmly in the mix for CC Sabathia — and also lead them to sign another free-agent hitter such as Raul Ibanez, Pat Burrell or Bobby Abreu.

Some in the industry believe that the Nationals are going to make the high offer to Teixeira, who turned down an eight-year, $140 million deal from the Rangers in the summer of 2007, prompting his trade to the Braves.

Teixeira wants a 10-year deal in the range of $20 million per season. If that is his price — and the Nationals come close to it or meet it — he then will need to decide whether to take a lesser proposal from the Angels or Red Sox.

Depending upon the outcomes of their other pursuits, the Angels also could emerge as a player for free-agent left-hander Brian Fuentes, who could replace Francisco Rodriguez in the closer's role.


If the Nats are interested, Teixeira must have an undiagnosed case of testicular cancer or something.

They pile up first basemen like firewood.

[brettmojo]

You sound like the spurned high school guy..."I didn't like her anyways. Her mom is fat so she'll be that way too. Plus she wears too much makeup!"

Seriously, Sabathia is a workhorse ace. Those guys are very hard to find.
Dude it's beyond silly. The Yanks are like that fat chick in Misery.

[Kevin]

You heard it hear first.

I said it with Arod, and EVERYBODY Called me crazy..

CC Sabathia WILL take the money and sign with the NY YANKEES!

Same feeling.

BOOK IT, And cry in your crappy domestic beer, Epo.

[Knowledged_one]

The orioles would not let the nats out offer them if they did pack it up because they will lose their fanbase

[Kevin]

The orioles would not let the nats out offer them if they did pack it up because they will lose their fanbase

Yea, NO WAY can they lose Tex to the Nats. It would be a disaster!

[epo]

You heard it hear first.

I said it with Arod, and EVERYBODY Called me crazy..

CC Sabathia WILL take the money and sign with the NY YANKEES!

Same feeling.

BOOK IT, And cry in your crappy domestic beer, Epo.

You so crazy!

[Kevin]

You so crazy!

I heard that last year.

[TheGameHHH]

You heard it hear first.

I said it with Arod, and EVERYBODY Called me crazy..

CC Sabathia WILL take the money and sign with the NY YANKEES!

Same feeling.

BOOK IT, And cry in your crappy domestic beer, Epo.

According to my inside sources, aka Peter Abraham, Brian Cashman left Vegas tonight on a private plane to attend a meeting with CC Sabathia in the San Francisco Bay area. Because of the location it's likely the meeting involves Amber Sabathia. That's now 3 meeting with the Yankees in the past 2 days.

You're looking pretty sharp there Kreskin......er, Kevin.

[HBox]

According to my inside sources, aka Peter Abraham, Brian Cashman left Vegas tonight on a private plane to attend a meeting with CC Sabathia in the San Francisco Bay area. Because of the location it's likely the meeting involves Amber Sabathia. That's now 3 meeting with the Yankees in the past 2 days.

You're looking pretty sharp there Kreskin......er, Kevin.

Cashman is going there to explain his brilliant "Cut away the entire West Coast and airlift it to the Atlantic Ocean" plan.

[TheGameHHH]

Cashman is going there to explain his brilliant "Cut away the entire West Coast and airlift it to the Atlantic Ocean" plan.

Now rumor is C.C. has countered with a "Cut away only California and airlift it to the Atlantic Ocean" plan. Cashman apparently is not thrilled with the idea.

[HBox]

Now rumor is C.C. has countered with a "Cut away only California and airlift it to the Atlantic Ocean" plan. Cashman apparently is not thrilled with the idea.

Sabathia is clearly not showing proper respect to the Yankee tradition. He should be summarily executed for his blasphemy.

[TheGameHHH]

Sabathia is clearly not showing proper respect to the Yankee tradition. He should be summarily executed for his blasphemy.

How dare he, he's barely the 45th best pitcher in the majors and he has the balls to treat the Yankees this way? fuck him.

[Kevin]

YOU BETTER START CRYING IN YOUR CHEAP DOMESTIC BEER EPO!

YANKS CLOSE IN ON SABATHIA DEAL (http://www.nypost.com/seven/12092008/sports/yankees/yankees_intensifying_talks_with_burnett__143414.ht m)

Cashman slipped out of the Winter Meetings to meet for the third straight day with Sabathia. But rather than meet in Vegas, Cashman went further west, two sources confirmed to The Post.

The reason was to talk not only with Sabathia, but with the pitcher's wife, Amber.

A person familiar with the negotiations said Cashman was more optimistic than ever yesterday about the Yankees landing Sabathia.

It was possible, the source said, that Cashman could be doing more than selling New York and the Yankees again. He could actually begin the process of finalizing a contract.

And if this does indeed happen. NONE OF YOU SHALL DOUBT MY INTUITIONS A GAIN! Both times when thing looked bleak for the YANKEES and getting their people. i stated they will.

[SuperKarateMonkeyDeathFez]

There's only six LEGIT aces in baseball right now.

-Halladay, Santana, Sabathia, Webb, Hamels, Lincecum.

Dice-K and Cliff Lee had legit ace seasons last year, but past struggles kind of make me want to see one more good ace quality season before putting them on the list.

So if you have the opportunity to get one of the precious few legitimate aces in baseball, you take it...no questions asked.

EDIT: Forgot Peavy.

It's a huge "if," and one that's not likely to occur, but if Rich Harden could stay healthy for the entire season, I'd argue he is one of the best pitchers in baseball.

I'm not so sure about Peavy being a "true ace." His numbers are excellent, but his home/away splits are rather unsettling. He might have really benefited kicking things off in Petco. He's obviously a very good pitcher, but having Petco as his home might have elevated him from, say, an A- pitcher to an A+ pitcher.

[brettmojo]

YOU BETTER START CRYING IN YOUR CHEAP DOMESTIC BEER EPO!

YANKS CLOSE IN ON SABATHIA DEAL (http://www.nypost.com/seven/12092008/sports/yankees/yankees_intensifying_talks_with_burnett__143414.ht m)

Cashman slipped out of the Winter Meetings to meet for the third straight day with Sabathia. But rather than meet in Vegas, Cashman went further west, two sources confirmed to The Post.

The reason was to talk not only with Sabathia, but with the pitcher's wife, Amber.
Cuckhold???

[K.C.]

Cashman is going there to explain his brilliant "Cut away the entire West Coast and airlift it to the Atlantic Ocean" plan.

I just picture C.C. striding out to a podium on the last day of the Winter Meetings with a gigantic smile on his face, and this song playing, while Hank viciously throttles Brian Cashman in the background.

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[SuperKarateMonkeyDeathFez]

I just picture C.C. striding out to a podium on the last day of the Winter Meetings with a gigantic smile on his face, and this song playing, while Hank viciously throttles Brian Cashman in the background.

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Unfortunately, creepo has seemingly jinxed the whole thing:

After three straight days of face-to-face meetings between GM Brian Cashman and Sabathia, the big lefty decided he wants to spend the next six years of his career as a Yankee. The decision came late last night after Cashman flew to see Sabathia at his home in San Francisco. By the time the meeting was concluded, Sabathia had informed the New York Yankees that he had made his decision to call New York his baseball home, the Post has learned. (http://www.nypost.com/seven/12102008/sports/yankees/yanks_close_in_on_sabathia_deal_143481.htm)

[K.C.]

Unfortunately, creepo has seemingly jinxed the whole thing:

Meh...it's a Post report.

If their usual journalistic standards of what they print holds up, that means that in all likelihood, the Yankees have never seen, met with, or even heard of C.C. Sabathia.

[sailor]

i think it's too soon to elevate lincecum, especially if you hold off others for the same reason.

[SuperKarateMonkeyDeathFez]

Meh...it's a Post report.

If their usual journalistic standards of what they print holds up, that means that in all likelihood, the Yankees have never seen, met with, or even heard of C.C. Sabathia.

But on the flipside...epo.

Advantage: Post.

[K.C.]

But on the flipside...epo.

Advantage: Post.

Good point.

[epo]

But on the flipside...epo.

Advantage: Post.

Even I didn't make this error:

http://www.taylormarsh.com/images/nypost_goof.jpg

[El Mudo]

If the Nats are interested, Teixeira must have an undiagnosed case of testicular cancer or something.

They pile up first basemen like firewood.


Nick Johnson's a GREAT hitter, but he's hurt all the time (and missed all of 2007 and only played 38 games last year...yikes), and Dmitri Young is coming off an injury and is 34...would love to have Tex and his sweet career .919 OPS

[epo]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

[Marc with a c]

6yrs 170 million.

[SuperKarateMonkeyDeathFez]

6yrs 170 million.

Insanity.

Sabathia is an excellent pitcher, but with the way he's been worked, that's just a batshit contract to give to ANY player, much less a pitcher.

[El Mudo]

Insanity.

Sabathia is an excellent pitcher, but with the way he's been worked, that's just a batshit contract to give to ANY player, much less a pitcher.

He hasn't been worked as much as you think he has, as I pointed out earlier:

Sabathia was second in the lig last year in BP's Pitcher Abuse Points index (behind only Lincecum)

Before that he was

26th (2007)

17th (2006)

60th (2005)

And in his first two years he was

38th (2001)

33rd (2002)

Think what you will of the metric, but I think its a good thing that most of his higher rankings have come since he's gotten older, and he didn't have a Prior or Wood like workload when he was in his early 20s. I think Sabathia's as good a candidate as any for a really long deal

[foodcourtdruide]

6yrs 170 million.

Wow. Big contract, but the yankees want to retool instead of rebuild, so I guess Sabbathia was necessary.

Sabbathia/Wang is a really good 1-2 punch.

[foodcourtdruide]

There's only six LEGIT aces in baseball right now.

-Halladay, Santana, Sabathia, Webb, Hamels, Lincecum.

Dice-K and Cliff Lee had legit ace seasons last year, but past struggles kind of make me want to see one more good ace quality season before putting them on the list.

So if you have the opportunity to get one of the precious few legitimate aces in baseball, you take it...no questions asked.



EDIT: Forgot Peavy.

Out of curiousity, what is your criteria for "legitimate ace"? I probably agree with your list, but i'm iffy on Hamels and Lincecum because i think you need to string a few great seasons together before you call someone a "legitimate ace".

[SuperKarateMonkeyDeathFez]

He hasn't been worked as much as you think he has, as I pointed out earlier:

Can you break it down further? Those rankings are over the whole year, but it seems like his biggest workloads in recent season have been at the end, so the overall ranking isn't going to specify the breakdowns of when he was used more frequently or for longer starts.

[Kevin]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

CRY IN THAT BEER! AND NEVER DOUBT ME AGAIN!!!!!!!!

Silly San Jose newspapers trying to predict things better than me BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[epo]

CRY IN THAT BEER! AND NEVER DOUBT ME AGAIN!!!!!!!!

Silly San Jose newspapers trying to predict things better than me BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Shut up. The Yankees had nothing to offer but 7 years and a boatload of cash.

[Kevin]

Shut up. The Yankees had nothing to offer but 7 years and a boatload of cash.

A new 1.3bil dollar stadium to play in. And Manhattan, or very lovely Westchester, or the suburbs of Jersey. What did Wisconsin have to offer? a shack and two cows named Shirley and Laverne?

EPO, you so crazy.

[foodcourtdruide]

A new 1.3bil dollar stadium to play in. And Manhattan, or very lovely Westchester, or the suburbs of Jersey. What did Wisconsin have to offer? a shack and two cows named Shirley and Laverne?

EPO, you so crazy.

Don't forget the magical feeling of being a Yankee. When he first suits up in pinstripes it will be the best moment of his life, surpassing the birth of his children and his wedding day. Hold on. I can't type anymore through these tears.