MLB Offseason Discussion...HOT STOVE, SSSSSSSSS!!!

[TheMojoPin]

If I were a Braves fan I'd be pissed if they traded Chipper.

Call me sentimental, but there are some guys you don't trade in baseball. The Phillies didn't trade Mike Schmidt to "extract his value", or the Cubs trade Ryne Sandberg. There are some lines a team shouldn't cross.

I'm banking my prediction on the Braves being an incredibly smart baseball team for about 15 years. Granted, that kinda vanished in the last couple of years, but during their run they showed no qualms about cutting ties when it best suited the team. Maybe some of that wisdom is still hanging around.

[TheMojoPin]

I can't understand why the Padres were shopping Peavy to begin with. It's completely ridiculous. But it's more ridiculous for the Braves to completely disregard negotiating for him.

I'm not sure there's a prospect I wouldn't trade for him (maybe David Price). He's still young, he's under contract until '13, and he's one of the best pitchers in baseball.

I'd be tossing coke and hookers through the Padres GM's window night and day to get this guy.

I thought it was weird how many teams that should be killing for him (Cardinals, Astros, Braves) immediately said they weren't going after Peavy. I think everyone is assuming it'll cost too much.

[cougarjake13]

If I were a Braves fan I'd be pissed if they traded Chipper.

Call me sentimental, but there are some guys you don't trade in baseball. The Phillies didn't trade Mike Schmidt to "extract his value", or the Cubs trade Ryne Sandberg. There are some lines a team shouldn't cross.

true but those guys careers ended before these crazy contracts were being given out

[skyscraper]

If I were a Braves fan I'd be pissed if they traded Chipper.

Call me sentimental, but there are some guys you don't trade in baseball. The Phillies didn't trade Mike Schmidt to "extract his value", or the Cubs trade Ryne Sandberg. There are some lines a team shouldn't cross.

The Phillies traded Ryne Sandberg to the cubs. apparently the GM at the time was looking for some magic beans....
as far as the crazy contracts, I seem to remember Sandberg getting $7 million, which was crazy crazy crazy at the time.

[TheMojoPin]

The Phillies traded Ryne Sandberg to the cubs. apparently the GM at the time was looking for some magic beans....
as far as the crazy contracts, I seem to remember Sandberg getting $7 million, which was crazy crazy crazy at the time.

Yeah, Sandberg's contract was nuts at the time. Arguably the first of the superstar contracts.

[Bossanova]

Yeah, Sandberg's contract was nuts at the time. Arguably the first of the superstar contracts.

Um the greatest player of all time, Rickey Henderson, had the first superstar contract sir

[TheGameHHH]

Um the greatest player of all time, Rickey Henderson, had the first superstar contract sir

I think Sandbergs had a bigger cultural impact on both sports and society. i remember as a kid reading a Sports Illustrated that covered Sandbergs contract. I remember looking at a bar graph of how much he was making compared to Babe Ruth and as a kid I was fucking shocked. It was a crazy contract. I'll never forget it as long as i lived, its the moment i realized baseball players made a shit load of money compared to the rest of us.

[TheMojoPin]

I think Sandbergs had a bigger cultural impact on both sports and society. i remember as a kid reading a Sports Illustrated that covered Sandbergs contract. I remember looking at a bar graph of how much he was making compared to Babe Ruth and as a kid I was fucking shocked. It was a crazy contract. I'll never forget it as long as i lived, its the moment i realized baseball players made a shit load of money compared to the rest of us.

Yeah, exactly. I remember that being a huge deal when it happened. That contract was the cover story of SI when it happened.

[cougarjake13]

The Phillies traded Ryne Sandberg to the cubs. apparently the GM at the time was looking for some magic beans....
as far as the crazy contracts, I seem to remember Sandberg getting $7 million, which was crazy crazy crazy at the time.

Yeah, Sandberg's contract was nuts at the time. Arguably the first of the superstar contracts.

I think Sandbergs had a bigger cultural impact on both sports and society. i remember as a kid reading a Sports Illustrated that covered Sandbergs contract. I remember looking at a bar graph of how much he was making compared to Babe Ruth and as a kid I was fucking shocked. It was a crazy contract. I'll never forget it as long as i lived, its the moment i realized baseball players made a shit load of money compared to the rest of us.

Yeah, exactly. I remember that being a huge deal when it happened. That contract was the cover story of SI when it happened.


i seemed to remember bobby bonillas mets contract to be the first
research has proved me correct



sandberg never made 7 mil a year http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sandbry01.shtml

and bobby bonilla had a bigger contract at the same time http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bonilbo01.shtml


bonilla

1992 New York Mets $6,100,000
1993 New York Mets $6,200,000
1994 New York Mets $6,300,000
1995 New York Mets $5,300,000



sandberg

1992 Chicago Cubs $2,150,000
1993 Chicago Cubs $5,975,000
1994 Chicago Cubs $5,975,000
1996 Chicago Cubs $2,300,000

[TheMojoPin]

i seemed to remember bobby bonillas mets contract to be the first
research has proved me correct



sandberg never made 7 mil a year http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sandbry01.shtml

and bobby bonilla had a bigger contract at the same time http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bonilbo01.shtml


bonilla

1992 New York Mets $6,100,000
1993 New York Mets $6,200,000
1994 New York Mets $6,300,000
1995 New York Mets $5,300,000



sandberg

1992 Chicago Cubs $2,150,000
1993 Chicago Cubs $5,975,000
1994 Chicago Cubs $5,975,000
1996 Chicago Cubs $2,300,000

Alright, so it was just under $6 million. It was a big deal at the time...like I said, got the SNL cover and everything. I have no idea why it got more attention than Bonilla, but it did.

[cougarjake13]

Alright, so it was just under $6 million. It was a big deal at the time...like I said, got the SNL cover and everything. I have no idea why it got more attention than Bonilla, but it did.

maybe its just our biases

your a cubbies fan

im a mets fan


but idont remeber the SI article you speak of, but i remember bonillas crazy contract and the fact that some of it wasdeferred til the late 2000's, early 2010's

[TheMojoPin]

maybe its just our biases

your a cubbies fan

im a mets fan


but idont remeber the SI article you speak of, but i remember bonillas crazy contract and the fact that some of it wasdeferred til the late 2000's, early 2010's

Maybe it was the deal structure. I'm really not being "biased"...there was some kind of deal over Sandberg's contract. I really don't care why it was, nor think it's somehow "good" for the Cubs: I just remember the national attention it got. It was usually a big deal in the 90's if the Cubs got national press because nobody paid attention to the Cubs until Sosa went on his tear late in the decade.

[cougarjake13]

Maybe it was the deal structure. I'm really not being "biased"...there was some kind of deal over Sandberg's contract. I really don't care why it was, nor think it's somehow "good" for the Cubs: I just remember the national attention it got. It was usually a big deal in the 90's if the Cubs got national press because nobody paid attention to the Cubs until Sosa went on his tear late in the decade.



from wikipedia


[edit] 1992
In 1992, Sandberg became the highest paid player in baseball at the time, signing a $28.4 million four year extension worth $7.1 million a season. He earned a spot on the NL All Star roster and an NL Silver Slugger Award at second base with a .304 batting average, 26 home runs, 100 runs, and 87 runs batted in


still dont remember it

[TheMojoPin]

from wikipedia

In 1992, Sandberg became the highest paid player in baseball at the time, signing a $28.4 million four year extension worth $7.1 million a season. He earned a spot on the NL All Star roster and an NL Silver Slugger Award at second base with a .304 batting average, 26 home runs, 100 runs, and 87 runs batted in

OK, I thought I was going nuts for a second.

[spadanko]

Is this now teh offseason thread?

MIAMI -- The Florida Marlins traded power-hitting first baseman Mike Jacobs to the Kansas City Royals for pitcher Leo Nunez.

The Marlins were shopping Jacobs because he was due a big raise in arbitration. In exchange on Thursday, they got a right-handed pitcher who was 4-1 last year with a 2.98 ERA in 45 relief appearances.

Nunez has a 9-7 career record.

Jacobs is a career .262 hitter the Marlins acquired in a 2005 trade with the New York Mets. He hit 32 home runs and knocked in 93 runs last season, both career bests.

[cougarjake13]

Is this now teh offseason thread?

sucks for jacobs, having to go to kc


i wouldnt have minded the mets getting him back

[Don Stugots]

Giambion and Pavanno took their buyouts and are no longer yankees. Farewell.

Also, burnette opted out of his contract with the blue jays. WTF? He is now a free agent.

[El Mudo]

I'm very very sad to see the end of the Chad Cordero era in DC


He was the first player I really got attached to from the Nats when they came, and I know his arm's probably shot, but it still sucks to see him go from a sentimental POV

It also makes me bummed they didn't deal him while he still had a LOT of value

[cougarjake13]

Giambion and Pavanno took their buyouts and are no longer yankees. Farewell.

Also, burnette opted out of his contract with the blue jays. WTF? He is now a free agent.

the canadian dollar has weakened so he's looking for more money

[TheMojoPin]

The more I read it, even I'm kind of weirded out by how gay I made this thread title.

[cougarjake13]

The more I read it, even I'm kind of weirded out by how gay I made this thread title.



is the sssssssssssss supposed to be a sizzling gimmick ??

[TheMojoPin]

is the sssssssssssss supposed to be a sizzling gimmick ??

Yeah, but I just keep reading it as a lisp.

[cougarjake13]

Yeah, but I just keep reading it as a lisp.

as did i

[El Mudo]

the canadian dollar has weakened so he's looking for more money

JD Drew did the same thing a couple years ago and made himself a mint

Don't think Burnett's good enough to make THAT much money, but his stats make him look like a serviceable 2 or 3

[Tall_James]

The more I read it, even I'm kind of weirded out by how gay I made this thread title.

I thought it had to do with snakes.

[Epschtein]

dustin pedroia = gold glove winner !

:clap:

[spadanko]

The Phillies are aggressively pursuing Matt Holliday, sources told SI.com's Jon Heyman.

The A's, Mets and Rays have also been mentioned in connection with Holliday. The Phillies tried to trade for both Holliday and Brian Fuentes in July, with Shane Victorino, Carlos Carrasco, Lou Marson and others possibly going to Colorado. The Phillies would likely make every attempt to hold on to Victorino now. That would leave Carrasco as the centerpiece of a deal.

[cougarjake13]

The Phillies are aggressively pursuing Matt Holliday, sources told SI.com's Jon Heyman.

The A's, Mets and Rays have also been mentioned in connection with Holliday. The Phillies tried to trade for both Holliday and Brian Fuentes in July, with Shane Victorino, Carlos Carrasco, Lou Marson and others possibly going to Colorado. The Phillies would likely make every attempt to hold on to Victorino now. That would leave Carrasco as the centerpiece of a deal.

im sure philly fans are happy that deal wasnt made

[HBox]

The A's got Holliday. No word of players going back yet.

[PD]

The A's got Holliday. No word of players going back yet.

considering they wanted Ludwick and more from StL, I'm very curious what they got.

edit.
by the way, it now says A's are "close" to getting Holliday.

[spadanko]

ESPN.com reports that the Matt Holliday-to-Oakland deal, which is still pending physicals, includes left-hander Greg Smith.

It makes sense that either Smith or Sean Gallagher was going to be involved. The Rockies want major league-ready talent, and the A's probably preferred going that route than touching their top prospects anyway. No word yet on whether Huston Street is in the mix. According to ESPN.com, there are final details still to be worked out, but the trade has been agreed to.

[spadanko]

A source told Yahoo! Sports' Tim Brown that the Rockies would get Carlos Gonzalez, Huston Street and Greg Smith from the A's for Matt Holliday.

Then the Rockies did extremely well and the A's gave up too much for just one year of a player who has never played at a superstar level outside of Coors Field. Manny Corpas owners should be disappointed if Street is in the deal, as Street would likely close for the Rockies. Smith would jump right into the rotation. Gonzalez could be a candidate to play left field or even center for a year, but everything that happened in 2008 suggests that he needs more minor league time. Nov. 10 - 3:50 pm et

[cougarjake13]

A source told Yahoo! Sports' Tim Brown that the Rockies would get Carlos Gonzalez, Huston Street and Greg Smith from the A's for Matt Holliday.

Then the Rockies did extremely well and the A's gave up too much for just one year of a player who has never played at a superstar level outside of Coors Field. Manny Corpas owners should be disappointed if Street is in the deal, as Street would likely close for the Rockies. Smith would jump right into the rotation. Gonzalez could be a candidate to play left field or even center for a year, but everything that happened in 2008 suggests that he needs more minor league time. Nov. 10 - 3:50 pm et




great deal for the rocks , the a's not so much

[underdog]

great deal for the rocks , the a's not so much

Why do people CONTINUE to doubt Billy Beane? Just about every trade he's made has involved people saying the A's are trading for nothing, and he ends up getting great players which he goes and trades a couple years later.

I don't even know why people continue to trade with the A's.

[cougarjake13]

Why do people CONTINUE to doubt Billy Beane? Just about every trade he's made has involved people saying the A's are trading for nothing, and he ends up getting great players which he goes and trades a couple years later.

I don't even know why people continue to trade with the A's.

in the past yes

but here he's trading away the young guys for an established guy whose contract runs out after the 09 season

so unless he trades holiday sometime betw now and the end of 09 he gave up those guys for nothing

[underdog]

in the past yes

but here he's trading away the young guys for an established guy whose contract runs out after the 09 season

so unless he trades holiday sometime betw now and the end of 09 he gave up those guys for nothing

Maybe this is it for him, and he's trying to win a WS. Or, he knows his team is awful and is planning on moving him to a team right before the deadline for an assload of prospects.

[epo]

Why do people CONTINUE to doubt Billy Beane? Just about every trade he's made has involved people saying the A's are trading for nothing, and he ends up getting great players which he goes and trades a couple years later.

I don't even know why people continue to trade with the A's.

I would tend to agree with you on this one at first glance...as it looks like a quality for quantity deal.

Isn't Street's arm pretty beat up for a young guy? Greg Smith is a finesse lefty going to Colorado. Carlos Gonzalez seems like the prize here as he seems like he should be a very nice gap hitter.

I guess in the age of today's free agency world, is 1 year of Matt Holliday & 2 compensation picks in the 2010 draft (both within the top 35 picks) better than Street, Smith and Gonzalez?

With Billy Beane's track record, I would side with Beane.

[spadanko]

Marlins deal Scott Olsen and Josh Willingham to teh NAts for minor leaguers

[TheMojoPin]

I would tend to agree with you on this one at first glance...as it looks like a quality for quantity deal.

Isn't Street's arm pretty beat up for a young guy? Greg Smith is a finesse lefty going to Colorado. Carlos Gonzalez seems like the prize here as he seems like he should be a very nice gap hitter.

I guess in the age of today's free agency world, is 1 year of Matt Holliday & 2 compensation picks in the 2010 draft (both within the top 35 picks) better than Street, Smith and Gonzalez?

With Billy Beane's track record, I would side with Beane.

I think if Holliday does decently he can be spun off by the deadline for more than what Beane gave up.

[Big_Joe]

I think if Holliday does decently he can be spun off by the deadline for more than what Beane gave up.

I agree. Cause more often then not an outfielder will get injured mid season and when that does happen Beane will be there with open arms looking to make a deal with said team that has the injured player. And even if this doesn't happen they will get two draft picks when he sign's else where. With Beane in the drivers seat 2 1st round picks are huge.

[underdog]

I think if Holliday does decently he can be spun off by the deadline for more than what Beane gave up.

It's almost like there's an echo in this thread.

[PD]

dunno if this should go here in Hot Stove, or in tech, or in a yankee thread, but

Cisco promises wireless, video extravaganza at new Yankee Stadium (http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/111108-cisco-to-add-high-tech-to.html?code=nldailynewspm169303)

a fancy fancy stadium they will have there.

[NYHCmikeX]

Yanks re-signed Marte for 3 years today.

[cougarjake13]

dunno if this should go here in Hot Stove, or in tech, or in a yankee thread, but

Cisco promises wireless, video extravaganza at new Yankee Stadium (http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/111108-cisco-to-add-high-tech-to.html?code=nldailynewspm169303)

a fancy fancy stadium they will have there.



yeh so they have something to distract the fans from the horrible play on the field

[cougarjake13]

Marlins deal Scott Olsen and Josh Willingham to teh NAts for minor leaguers

isnt that like the 5th OF they traded for in the last 2 years ???

[NYHCmikeX]

Nick Swisher is a Yankee (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3700869)

[spadanko]

Wood will not be re-signed by Cubs
Marlins trade Kevin Gregg to Cubs

bigtime downgrade

[cougarjake13]

Nick Swisher is a Yankee (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3700869)

the new giambi ??

[cougarjake13]

Wood will not be re-signed by Cubs
Marlins trade Kevin Gregg to Cubs

bigtime downgrade

i'll take him on the mets

[IMSlacker]

Wood will not be re-signed by Cubs
Marlins trade Kevin Gregg to Cubs

bigtime downgrade

I have a feeling they'll go with Marmol in the ninth. Gregg is still a downgrade from Marmol in the eighth though.

[TheMojoPin]

I have a feeling they'll go with Marmol in the ninth. Gregg is still a downgrade from Marmol in the eighth though.

Still a smart move. Sad to see Wood go, but you don't spend big bucks on the bullpen when you need to upgrade elsewhere. Let Marmol close...Gaudin, Wuertz, Guzman, Shark, Cotts, Hart et al can handle the rest.

[IMSlacker]

Still a smart move. Sad to see Wood go, but you don't spend big bucks on the bullpen when you need to upgrade elsewhere. Let Marmol close...Gaudin, Wuertz, Guzman, Shark, Cotts, Hart et al can handle the rest.

I don't know how smart a move the Gregg trade was. They gave up a pretty good prospect (Jose Ceda), for a pretty average reliever.

[TheMojoPin]

I don't know how smart a move the Gregg trade was. They gave up a pretty good prospect (Jose Ceda), for a pretty average reliever.

Ceda has a ton of upside but really struggles with his weight and has shown little sign of consistently keeping it under control. When he's too heavy, he's too wild and all but useless, and he's too heavy too often.

Gregg's overall numbers the last 3 seasons are pretty good and basically replaces the good Bob Howry the Cubs had from '06-'07. He's nowhere near as good as Wood, bt he's definitely a useful reliever.

Plus, they lose Ceda, but get 2 first round picks when Wood is signed and would get 2 first round picks if they don't resign Gregg after this year.

[Warren Peace]

Still a smart move. Sad to see Wood go, but you don't spend big bucks on the bullpen when you need to upgrade elsewhere. Let Marmol close...Gaudin, Wuertz, Guzman, Shark, Cotts, Hart et al can handle the rest.

Agreed, they need the $$ to go out and get that left-handed power bat (Ibanez).

[TheMojoPin]

Agreed, they need the $$ to go out and get that left-handed power bat (Ibanez).

I'd put my order of preference as:

Dunn
Ibanez
Abreu (he's a leftie, isn't he?)

Yeah, Dunn's defense is brutal, but my God, he is a HR god. Between him and Soriano, your corner OF spots would be producing around 80 home runs a season. That far, far, FAR outweighs any defensive miscues they'd have (nevermind Soriano is actually a much better fielder than a lot people want to admit).

[TheMojoPin]

So the Braves are officially out of trying to get Peavy, and Towers is saying the lack of progress means he might look to the Angels and Yankees instead.

This is pretty ridiculous. Towers is only going to get a deal like the Twins got for Santana at best. The Yankees have already hinted at a deal hinged on overrated crapsticks Cano and Melky, so he's not getting much there.

[spadanko]

I'd put my order of preference as:

Dunn
Ibanez
Abreu (he's a leftie, isn't he?)

Yeah, Dunn's defense is brutal, but my God, he is a HR god. Between him and Soriano, your corner OF spots would be producing around 80 home runs a season. That far, far, FAR outweighs any defensive miscues they'd have (nevermind Soriano is actually a much better fielder than a lot people want to admit).

i think Abreu is a perfect fit for the Cubs... Dun is going to washington i think

[K.C.]

If I had to make predictions (using the MLBTradeRumors list of top free agents):

C.C. Sabathia - Yankees (Every indication is that there's no amount the Yankees won't spend)
Mark Teixeira - Angels (Orioles have a shot, but the Angels have too much money)
Manny Ramirez - Yankees (The Dodgers are fucking around too much. The Yanks will swoop in)
Francisco Rodriguez - Angels (The market will bottom out ridiculously for K-Rod, as all of the hype seems to have died on him. The Angels will eventually swoop back in with fair deal and re-sign)
A.J. Burnett - Yankees (When a team has $90 million to spend, they're going to get 3-4 big stars)
Derek Lowe - Mets
Orlando Hudson - Cardinals (Every indication is that Adam Kennedy is gone)
Adam Dunn - Nationals (Leave it to the Nats to lock up another mediocre player to a big deal)
Ryan Dempster - Braves
Ben Sheets - Brewers (one year, $10 million deal...the Sheets/Brewers marriage goes one more season)
Mike Mussina - Yankees
Raul Ibanez - Mets
Pat Burrell - Phillies (kind of like K-Rod, the market will bottom out significantly for Burrell, and he'll re-sign at an under market deal with the Phils)
Bobby Abreu - Braves
Brian Fuentes - Rangers
Andy Pettitte - Yankees
Rafael Furcal - Dodgers
Casey Blake - Dodgers
Milton Bradley - Rangers
Jason Giambi - Athletics
Orlando Cabrera - Blue Jays
Jamie Moyer - Phillies
Kerry Wood - Mets (The Cubs will hate themselves for this move before the '09 season is over)
Randy Johnson - Angels
Oliver Perez - Diamondbacks
Randy Wolf - Astros
Mark Grudzielanek - Padres
Ray Durham - White Sox
John Smoltz - Braves (but as a closer)
Ivan Rodriguez - Padres
Freddy Garcia - Rangers
Trevor Hofman - Padres
Brad Penny - Braves
Jeremy Affeldt - Indians
Jon Garland - Blue Jays
Paul Byrd - Royals
Braden Looper - Orioles
Edgar Renteria - White Sox
Joe Crede - Twins
Nick Punto - Royals
Juan Cruz - Mets
Mark Kotsay - Padres
Jason Varitek - Red Sox
Garrett Anderson - Angels
Odalis Perez - Giants
Felipe Lopez - Cardinals
Jim Edmonds - Cardinals (as a bench player)
Rocco Baldelli - Rays

[TheMojoPin]

So the Cubs, with money to spend, and have shown the last couple of years they WILL spend, will sign nobody.

Hmmm.

And Adam Dunn is now aparently "mediocre."

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[joeyballsack]

You think the Red Sox aren't going to sign anyone in free agency but Varitek ?

Your list blows.

[midwestjeff]

Your list blows.

Seriously.
The Cardinals have 87 outfielders.
Why would they bring back Benedict Edmonds?
I respect the time and effort you wasted on your list but man does it suck.

[Bossanova]

Angels said they aren't in the K-Rod market

[cougarjake13]

interesting list



i-rod to the padres though ?/? dont make sense



also as has been said


no cubs or sawx signings ???

[K.C.]

So the Cubs, with money to spend, and have shown the last couple of years they WILL spend, will sign nobody.

Hmmm.

And Adam Dunn is now aparently "mediocre."

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Yes, Dunn is the most overrated player on the market.

And no, the Cubs won't sign any huge free agents. Doesn't mean they won't make a trade...

You think the Red Sox aren't going to sign anyone in free agency but Varitek ?

Your list blows.


The Red Sox have their eyes set on a couple more Japanese pitchers. I didn't add them to the list, because I really have no clue how to handicap who's interested.

Other than that, no, their name is mentioned with none of the top free agents. There was a rumor about Teixiera but it's not a practical move.



Seriously.
The Cardinals have 87 outfielders.
Why would they bring back Benedict Edmonds?
I respect the time and effort you wasted on your list but man does it suck.

Because the rumors is they're going to trade Ludwick, and Edmonds won't get a starting job. I also find it funny that possibly miscasting the 86th person on the list invalidates the entire list.


Angels said they aren't in the K-Rod market

For now.

The K-Rod market is going south very quickly. I suspect from comments they made during the season last year that if the price falls enough, they'll make him an offer.

And right now, the price appears to be falling.






interesting list



i-rod to the padres though ?/? dont make sense



also as has been said


no cubs or sawx signings ???

Because the Padres have to actually field a team. They can't forfeit the entire season. And they have no semblance of a catcher. And there's not going to be much interest in Pudge.













BRING IT BITCHES!!!! I won't stand for this attacking of my list!

[TheMojoPin]

This is Joe Morgan-esque.

[K.C.]

This is Joe Morgan-esque.

You're right. I'm sorry.

The Cubs will sign Sabathia, Teixeira, Wood, Dempster, Burnett, and K-Rod.

[cougarjake13]

so you're saying that the padres wouldnt bring up everyone in triple a that they needed to so they could field a team and not forfeit ??


the padres have no catchers in triple or double a ??




and according to your list you say the cubs are gonna lose dempster, wood, edmonds, howry, and blanco


and not sign anyone to replace them ??

[K.C.]

so you're saying that the padres wouldnt bring up everyone in triple a that they needed to so they could field a team and not forfeit ??


the padres have no catchers in triple or double a ??




and according to your list you say the cubs are gonna lose dempster, wood, edmonds, howry, and blanco


and not sign anyone to replace them ??

No, the Padres' catchers suck. They have nothing.


Edmonds, Howry, and Blanco aren't big losses. They'll fill either from within or with minor free agent pickups (bear in mind that's not a complete free agent list. Just the Top 50).

They've already indicated they're replacing Wood with either Kevin Gregg or Carlos Marmol.

I think they'll lose Dempster, which is the one big loss. In all likelihood, they'll add a pitcher in a trade. Nobody seems like a really good fit for them in free agency, IMO.

If the Braves don't sign Bobby Abreu, I would also say the Cubs may be second most likely to.

[cougarjake13]

available free agent catchers and last years team



Brad Ausmus 39 Houston
Paul Bako 36 Cincinnati
Gary Bennett 36 LA Dodgers
Henry Blanco 37 Chicago Cubs
Sal Fasano 37 Cleveland
Toby Hall 33 Chicago Sox
Jason LaRue 34 St. Louis
Paul Lo Duca 36 (B) Florida
Adam Melhuse 36 Colorado
Chad Moeller 33 NY Yankees
Ivan Rodriguez 36 (B) NY Yankees
David Ross 31 Boston
Javier Valentin 33 Cincinnati
Jason Varitek 36 (A) Boston
Vance Wilson 35 Detroit
Gregg Zaun 37 Toronto



plenty of other , cheaper options on that list

[K.C.]

available free agent catchers and last years team



Brad Ausmus 39 Houston
Paul Bako 36 Cincinnati
Gary Bennett 36 LA Dodgers
Henry Blanco 37 Chicago Cubs
Sal Fasano 37 Cleveland
Toby Hall 33 Chicago Sox
Jason LaRue 34 St. Louis
Paul Lo Duca 36 (B) Florida
Adam Melhuse 36 Colorado
Chad Moeller 33 NY Yankees
Ivan Rodriguez 36 (B) NY Yankees
David Ross 31 Boston
Javier Valentin 33 Cincinnati
Jason Varitek 36 (A) Boston
Vance Wilson 35 Detroit
Gregg Zaun 37 Toronto



plenty of other , cheaper options on that list

Pudge is going to be cheap, though.

He has no power, and he's not the catcher he used to be defensively. And in all likelihood, he'll sign a one year deal, or a one year deal with a 2nd year club option.

This isn't Pudge of six or seven years ago. He's at the end of his career.

[cougarjake13]

Pudge is going to be cheap, though.

He has no power, and he's not the catcher he used to be defensively. And in all likelihood, he'll sign a one year deal, or a one year deal with a 2nd year club option.

This isn't Pudge of six or seven years ago. He's at the end of his career.



exactly so why the hell would the fathers want him ??

[epo]

Ben Sheets - Brewers (one year, $10 million deal...the Sheets/Brewers marriage goes one more season)

6 Weeks ago I would've said you are nuts. Today I would completely agree with this assessment. My only tweak would be that it will likely be a 2 year deal.

[K.C.]

exactly so why the hell would the fathers want him ??

Because he's the best of what's available and no one else really is looking for catching. Quite a few teams have young catchers they're trying out. Of the rest, honestly, who would Pudge be an upgrade over?

Phillies - Ruiz
Braves - McCann
Mets - Schneider (too much money invested in Schneider and Castro to sign Pudge, even though he MAY be an upgrade)
Marlins - Baker
Nationals - Flores

Cubs - Soto
Astros - Towles
Brewers - Kendall
Cardinals - Y. Molina
Pirates - Doumit
Reds - W. Castillo/Hanigan

Padres - Hundley
Giants - B. Molina
Dodgers - Martin
Rockies - Ianetta
Diamondbacks - Snyder

Yankees - Posada
Red Sox - Varitek
Blue Jays - Barajas (he'd be an upgrade, but the Jays said they're happy with Barajas)
Orioles - R. Hernandez
Devil Rays - Navarro

White Sox - Pierzynski
Indians - V. Martinez/Shoppach
Twins - Mauer
Tigers - Inge/Ryan (he'd be an upgrade, but the Tigers are looking to shed payroll)
Royals - Olivo

Angels - Napoli/Mathis
Athletics - Suzuki
Rangers - Saltalamacchia/Laird
Mariners - Clement/Johjima (too much money committed to Johjima)

So, realistically, he goes to the Astros, Reds, or Padres. Towles had a rough time for the Astros last season but he's still a young, pretty good prospect.

So I'd be surprised if the Astros bid for him. Out of the Reds or the Padres, neither team will be competitive. So it's a toss-up.

I say Padres.

[K.C.]

6 Weeks ago I would've said you are nuts. Today I would completely agree with this assessment. My only tweak would be that it will likely be a 2 year deal.

I think Sheets would be reluctant to sign anywhere for more than one season. He knows he blew his big free agent payday by getting hurt. One good season, though, can earn him a ton of money.

I would have said it was crazy six weeks ago, too, but it's a marriage of convenience. Sheets comes back and tries to leave it all out there for a big payday after '09...the Brewers, who look increasingly less likely to sign Sabathia, get a potential #1, pitching for a contract, to stabilize that staff.

[Bossanova]

exactly so why the hell would the Padres want him ??

Skills positions are thin this year., especially cather. Why wouldn't they take a shot with him on the cheap?

[disneyspy]

pudge would be huge for the tigers just cuz we fans felt like the organization gave up with his trade.man i hope they bring him back

[TheMojoPin]

You're right. I'm sorry.

The Cubs will sign Sabathia, Teixeira, Wood, Dempster, Burnett, and K-Rod.

Now it's YES-esque.

I think that WS fried your noggin.

[K.C.]

pudge would be huge for the tigers just cuz we fans felt like the organization gave up with his trade.man i hope they bring him back

i hate to break the news, but the Tigers look like they're going to take a step back.

There's talk of them unloading Ordonez this offseason, and I'm sure they'd love to dump Dontrelle Willis if anyone would take him.

[K.C.]

Now it's YES-esque.

I think that WS fried your noggin.

Maybe.

But I don't really see what was so far-fetched.

You really see the Cubs making a ton of moves?

[K.C.]

Ok, so out of curiosity, I crunched the numbers on the Cubs.

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/9058/cubszb7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/cubszb7.jpg/1/w579.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img114/cubszb7.jpg/1/)

They'll be about $6 million over their 2008 payroll once they get all their arbitration cases hammered out, and other things.

Have they said whether or not they're going to raise their payroll? Have they said how much? Have they said whether it'll be affected or not by the current economic situation?

I can see them maybe bumping up another 10-12 million for a decent #4 starter. But there's no way I see them moving on a Sabathia, or Burnett, or any high profile guy.
...that is, unless they make a couple trades to dump payroll.

I wonder, though...is someone like Brad Penny, who would probably be around the Cubs price range, really worth 10-12 million over giving someone like Sean Marshall or Rich Hill, at the league minimum, a chance to win that job?

I know Hill has health issues. I haven't been following, so I don't know what the deal is with him. Marshall looked decent enough to me, that he's worth a look in Spring Training.

[TheMojoPin]

Ok, so out of curiosity, I crunched the numbers on the Cubs.

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/9058/cubszb7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/cubszb7.jpg/1/w579.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img114/cubszb7.jpg/1/)

They'll be about $6 million over their 2008 payroll once they get all their arbitration cases hammered out, and other things.

Have they said whether or not they're going to raise their payroll? Have they said how much? Have they said whether it'll be affected or not by the current economic situation?

They have. Hendry and the organization have stated they will spend and are willing to up the payroll to at least $160 million, giving them about $15 million to play with.

I can see them maybe bumping up another 10-12 million for a decent #4 starter. But there's no way I see them moving on a Sabathia, or Burnett, or any high profile guy.
...that is, unless they make a couple trades to dump payroll.

They were likely never going to move on those guys. It seems like Peavy is the main goal, and if that continues to stall they'll likely be the ones to sign Dempster.

I wonder, though...is someone like Brad Penny, who would probably be around the Cubs price range, really worth 10-12 million over giving someone like Sean Marshall or Rich Hill, at the league minimum, a chance to win that job?

I know Hill has health issues. I haven't been following, so I don't know what the deal is with him. Marshall looked decent enough to me, that he's worth a look in Spring Training.

Marshall is a really solid middle of the rotation guy and will likely be a big trading piece.

I don't see the Cubs doing a ton of moves, but likely another trade and a big signing or two. They really don't have a lot they need to do.

Hill's problems, unfortunately, are pretty mysterious and seem to be in his head. The guy put together several amazing years in the minors, then was fantastic in the bigs the 2nd half of 2006 and all of 2007 and then just completely melted down in 2008 starting in spring training. I forsee him likely being a smaller part to a trade package since he'll be exposed to waivers. Too bad, too.

[HBox]

I'm sure THIS will get the Cubs in the World Series. (http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/27737386/)

[Aneurysm]

:lol: Bwahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[TheMojoPin]

Sonuvabitch. Hendry is cruising for a bruising.

[Knowledged_one]

Mojo you are forgetting bdc rule #1 if its a one year deal you have to do it
.

[TheMojoPin]

Mojo you are forgetting bdc rule #1 if its a one year deal you have to do it
.

Shit. Can't argue with that.

[IMSlacker]

We should do a free agency contest like they do on TCR. Pick where you think the top 15 free agents will end up and rank your pics from 1 to 15 based on how confident you are in each pick.

[sailor]

rasner to japan. yay.

[cougarjake13]

Skills positions are thin this year., especially cather. Why wouldn't they take a shot with him on the cheap?

mainly b/c if theyre gonna trade peavy they obviously feel theyre not going to be competitive so why waste money on a big name catcher

now if they get him very cheap then yeh i could see it

[Kris10]

I'm kind of surprised the Phils aren't looking into Johnson, we like are oldies.

[cougarjake13]

I'm kind of surprised the Phils aren't looking into Johnson, we like are oldies.

they will

only it will be schilling

[spadanko]

“Francisco Rodriguez and his representatives will come to New York early this week to take some physical exams,” according to Mets beat reporter Rich Coutinho, citing ‘sources,’ on his blog for 1050 ESPN Radio’

Coutinho reports the Mets have given Rodriguez a contract offer, ‘with the Mets hoping for a three-year deal and a fourth year club option, while K-Rod would like at least four years of guaranteed money.”

[skyscraper]

Mark Cuban has been charged with insider trading. Does this hurt his bid to buy the Cubs?

[skyscraper]

I'm sure THIS will get the Cubs in the World Series. (http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/27737386/)

wasn't Johnson ON that last Cubs Championship team?

[IMSlacker]

Mark Cuban has been charged with insider trading. Does this hurt his bid to buy the Cubs?

No, Selig and the other owners weren't going to let Cuban buy the Cubs in the first place.

[TheMojoPin]

I think he had a good shot before due to how obvious it was how much money he'd make for baseball, but now he doesn't really have one at all no matter how this plays out. It's probably not going to amount to anything in the long run, but it's enough high profile negative press involving Cuban's business practices that Reinsdorf and Selig can lead the chage against him with it.

[cougarjake13]

albert pujols wins nl mvp

[K.C.]

albert pujols wins nl mvp

Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.


Actually, he deserved it.

He didn't in 2006, but he did this year.

[TheMojoPin]

Albert Pujols deserves the MVP for both leagues for as long as he draws breath. Well, alright, so long as he's healthy enough to produce. I really think any argument for any other player this year, in either league, as being more valuable than him, is easily destroyed.

[K.C.]

Albert Pujols deserves the MVP for both leagues for as long as he draws breath. Well, alright, so long as he's healthy enough to produce. I really think any argument for any other player this year, in either league, as being more valuable than him, is easily destroyed.

The only thing you could say is if you believe a player should not be considered if his team doesn't make the playoffs, which some of the writers do.

But outside of that, Pujols pretty much dominated Howard in everything except HRs and RBI.

[cougarjake13]

The only thing you could say is if you believe a player should not be considered if his team doesn't make the playoffs, which some of the writers do.

But outside of that, Pujols pretty much dominated Howard in everything except HRs and RBI.

which ironically pujols said about howard in 06

[midwestjeff]

Should I be excited?

I'm sure Pujols made sure to thank Jesus and then said something about how it's not about personal achievements and he would rather have another ring.

Put a fucking team around that god-fearing fucker and an MVP might make me smile next year.

[foodcourtdruide]

I'd have given it to Howard. I hate giving the MVP to a losing team.

[hexy68]

Howard had a horrible start last year...but i think he's happy with that trophy with the little flags on it that's sitting on his mantel now :thumbup:

[PD]

I'd have given it to Howard. I hate giving the MVP to a losing team.

I hate giving it to a guy who had a .339 OBP - unless there is no alternative.

also, Howard had Utley and all the pesky guys.

Pujols deserved this.

[cougarjake13]

but the award is for most valuable not best stats



yeh the cradinals might have sucked more ass without him

but here if you go by most valuable you'd have to say sabathia or manny, regardless of the fact that they only played a few months for their teams


the dodgers and brewers would have been watching the playoffs without them



now if you want to be a stickler and say we cant give it to a guy who the team wouldnt have been as successful without b/c he wasnt there all year then i'd say you have to give it to brad lidge or ryan braun




shockingly 5 mets recieved votes

[TheMojoPin]

The only thing you could say is if you believe a player should not be considered if his team doesn't make the playoffs, which some of the writers do.

And they're idiots.

[Kris10]

they will

only it will be schilling

Philly doesn't want Schilling. Besides he won't be a fan favorite at all.

I'm sorry K.C. I usually agree with you 99.9999% of the time but I don't believe Howard deserved NL MVP. He went through too many slumps and didn't do much in the off season for me to forget about the regular season.

[midwestjeff]

Philly doesn't want Schilling. Besides he won't be a fan favorite at all.

I'm sorry K.C. I usually agree with you 99.9999% of the time but I don't believe Howard deserved NL MVP. He went through too many slumps and didn't do much in the off season for me to forget about the regular season.

I wish Albert had a post-season slump. :glurps:

[Kris10]

I wish Albert had a post-season slump. :glurps:

lol always next year

[K.C.]

Philly doesn't want Schilling. Besides he won't be a fan favorite at all.

I'm sorry K.C. I usually agree with you 99.9999% of the time but I don't believe Howard deserved NL MVP. He went through too many slumps and didn't do much in the off season for me to forget about the regular season.

Oh I said that Pujols deserved it.

I was just pointing out that some of the people who voted for Howard did so on the basis of the 'player has to be on a playoff team' premise.


And you're 100% correct. They don't want Schilling, nor should they.

[Epschtein]

hay! what time does the AL MVP get announced?

[spadanko]

hay! what time does the AL MVP get announced?

2pm I believe

[Epschtein]

sweet thanx! that will still give dave and earl an hour to say stupid things about whoever they pick or dont pick. ;)

(mostly kidding about dave, but earl really should be banned from talking about sports)

[NYHCmikeX]

(mostly kidding about dave, but earl really should be banned from talking about sports)

"Ya know, I think LaTroy Hawkins should be considered. I dont know any players that arent on the Yankees, and he was the only black guy on that team."

[TripleSkeet]

Oh I said that Pujols deserved it.

I was just pointing out that some of the people who voted for Howard did so on the basis of the 'player has to be on a playoff team' premise.


And you're 100% correct. They don't want Schilling, nor should they.


I guess I just look at it differently. Different stats are important for different positions. A leadoff mans most important stats are OBP, Average, and stolen bases. A cleanup hitters most important stat is RBI's. Hence the expression "the top 3 set the table, the CLEANUP hitter clears it". Howard was the best cleanup hitter in baseball. Strikeouts dont mean shit when you lead the league in homeruns and RBI. I think the league puts too much importance on average. Constantly getting singles without knocking runs in is fucking worthless.

This was a little payback to Pujols for losing it the year they won the series. Only difference is, Howard had better home run and RBI numbers then too.

[IMSlacker]

I guess I just look at it differently. Different stats are important for different positions. A leadoff mans most important stats are OBP, Average, and stolen bases. A cleanup hitters most important stat is RBI's. Hence the expression "the top 3 set the table, the CLEANUP hitter clears it". Howard was the best cleanup hitter in baseball. Strikeouts dont mean shit when you lead the league in homeruns and RBI. I think the league puts too much importance on average. Constantly getting singles without knocking runs in is fucking worthless.

This was a little payback to Pujols for losing it the year they won the series. Only difference is, Howard had better home run and RBI numbers then too.

Are you Joe Morgan?

[El Mudo]

but the award is for most valuable not best stats



yeh the cradinals might have sucked more ass without him

but here if you go by most valuable you'd have to say sabathia or manny, regardless of the fact that they only played a few months for their teams


the dodgers and brewers would have been watching the playoffs without them



now if you want to be a stickler and say we cant give it to a guy who the team wouldnt have been as successful without b/c he wasnt there all year then i'd say you have to give it to brad lidge or ryan braun




shockingly 5 mets recieved votes



How is it Albert's fault if his team can't pitch?

Lets say hypothetically, Albert hits 6 home runs, but his team loses 15-12...is that really Albert's fault? You can't judge "value" by anything OTHER than statistics, because its the only thing that has a measurable value that can be compared to other values, and according to measurable statistics like WARP and VORP, Albert Pujols was the most valuable player in the NL. Am I supposed to measure a player's worth by "intangibles"? Intangibles BY DEFINITION are something that "can't be measured"

This fucking garbage about "intangibles" and "value isn't just about statistics" "the award is about most value and not best stats" HAS to stop in all forms. I will only be satisfied when poop stats like "intanglibles", batting average, RBIs and Wins (what some dopes use as a measure of a pitcher's worth) are no longer used as a basis for determining a player's value

[K.C.]

I guess I just look at it differently. Different stats are important for different positions. A leadoff mans most important stats are OBP, Average, and stolen bases. A cleanup hitters most important stat is RBI's. Hence the expression "the top 3 set the table, the CLEANUP hitter clears it". Howard was the best cleanup hitter in baseball. Strikeouts dont mean shit when you lead the league in homeruns and RBI. I think the league puts too much importance on average. Constantly getting singles without knocking runs in is fucking worthless.

This was a little payback to Pujols for losing it the year they won the series. Only difference is, Howard had better home run and RBI numbers then too.

If if you look at it that way, though, if you compare numbers with runners in scoring position, it's no contest.

Pujols was that good this season.

[El Mudo]

Ryan Braun? Seriously?


Ryan Braun:

OBP

.335

SLG

.553

OPS+

128

EQA

.294

VORP

.45



Jose Alberto Pujols

OBP

.462

SLG

.653

OPS +

190

EQA

.372

VORP

98.7

[cougarjake13]

dustin pedroia wins al mvp



congrats

[cougarjake13]

How is it Albert's fault if his team can't pitch?

Lets say hypothetically, Albert hits 6 home runs, but his team loses 15-12...is that really Albert's fault? You can't judge "value" by anything OTHER than statistics, because its the only thing that has a measurable value that can be compared to other values, and according to measurable statistics like WARP and VORP, Albert Pujols was the most valuable player in the NL. Am I supposed to measure a player's worth by "intangibles"? Intangibles BY DEFINITION are something that "can't be measured"

This fucking garbage about "intangibles" and "value isn't just about statistics" "the award is about most value and not best stats" HAS to stop in all forms. I will only be satisfied when poop stats like "intanglibles", batting average, RBIs and Wins (what some dopes use as a measure of a pitcher's worth) are no longer used as a basis for determining a player's value



its not his fault but how valuable was he to the team

they won 86 but were 11.5 games behind the leader in 4th

so whats the difference if he doesnt perform as he did and they only win what 65-75 games


is he more valauble to the cardinals b/c he helped them win an extra 10+ games and then nothing

vs

what manny or sabathia did ??

[HBox]

dustin pedroia wins al mvp



congrats

Pedroia was the best player they could find? What a lousy year.

[brettmojo]

It should have been Krod.

[foodcourtdruide]

Pedroia was the best player they could find? What a lousy year.

I was thinking the same thing. .869 OPS?

[cougarjake13]

It should have been Krod.

yeh he had 62 saves but they won the division by 21 games


so i guess you can say if he blew those 21 saves and only had 41

but i wouldnt have said he was that valauble, most of those saves he came in and no one was on base

[cougarjake13]

cubs and dempster close to a deal



Sources:-Cubs-close-to-re-signing-Dempster (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8812098/Sources:-Cubs-close-to-re-signing-Dempster)

[PD]

cubs and dempster close to a deal



Sources:-Cubs-close-to-re-signing-Dempster (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8812098/Sources:-Cubs-close-to-re-signing-Dempster)

http://www.nj.com/yankees/index.ssf/2008/11/dempster_to_resign_with_cubs_s.html

seems done.

A baseball official close to the situation, who requested anonymity because the deal has not yet been announced, said the Cubs and Ryan Dempster have agreed on a four-year contract worth about $52 million.

[El Mudo]

its not his fault but how valuable was he to the team

they won 86 but were 11.5 games behind the leader in 4th

so whats the difference if he doesnt perform as he did and they only win what 65-75 games


is he more valauble to the cardinals b/c he helped them win an extra 10+ games and then nothing

vs

what manny or sabathia did ??



If the Cards won 10+ games MORE than they would have because of Jose Alberto Pujols, thats PHENOMENAL

And again, the team wins DON'T MATTER because there's no way Jose Alberto Pujols can play all 9 positions at the same time, its like my good friends at FJM said:

"Albert Pujols was not a good enough pitcher to win MVP" (http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2008/10/albert-pujols-was-not-good-enough.html)

But as unthinkably dangerous as the Cardinals’ slugger was, he couldn’t get his team to the postseason. Howard did.

You're right. Albert Pujols did not nearly pitch well enough, or for enough innings (Can you believe zero innings? What a bum!) for the Cardinals to to make the playoffs. (The Phillies had a team ERA of 3.88; the Cardinals 4.19. Albert Pujols? More like Albert Not A Very Good Pitching Coach!)

Pujols should have lobbied to have St. Louis the city moved to Oregon, where his Cardinals would have won the NL West by two games and he would be lauded as a clutch MVP baseball superhero with quality intangibles and a leader with the uncanny ability to come through when it counts. But unfortunately, Pujols has never been good at getting entire cities to spontaneously change their geographical locations.

Ryan Howard batted .168 in April. Albert Pujols' batting averages, by month (and I know batting average doesn't matter. Here they are anyway): .365, .373, .302, .347, .398, .321. Bob Klapisch, do you think for some reason that games played in April don't count in the standings? Ryan Howard batted .213 in August.

[El Mudo]

yeh he had 62 saves but they won the division by 21 games


so i guess you can say if he blew those 21 saves and only had 41

but i wouldnt have said he was that valauble, most of those saves he came in and no one was on base



Rivera looks at KRod's stats and laughs like the superman he is

[cougarjake13]

If the Cards won 10+ games MORE than they would have because of Jose Alberto Pujols, thats PHENOMENAL

And again, the team wins DON'T MATTER because there's no way Jose Alberto Pujols can play all 9 positions at the same time, its like my good friends at FJM said:

"Albert Pujols was not a good enough pitcher to win MVP" (http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2008/10/albert-pujols-was-not-good-enough.html)



i guess we'll have to agree to disagree


if we dont include stats as they pertained to team success, and team wins, then we cant have a most valuable player so a award name change needs to happen

[K.C.]

4yrs/$53 million for Dempster ($13 mil per)

That's a pretty fair deal. Dempster was one of the bellweathers for determining this year's market.

There was some thought that he could have gotten around 16-17 million per year.

Derek Lowe will likely get around the same contract.

This suggests that the market will be pretty reasonable this year, and it also protects a little bit from the Yankees blowing it up with their Sabathia offer.

[TheMojoPin]

Besides Dempster, Peavy is supposedly there for the Cubs if they can find a 3rd team to get involved in the trade to pump up the deal.

Peavy-Zambrano-Harden-Dempster-Lilly?

Good God.

[IMSlacker]

Besides Dempster, Peavy is supposedly there for the Cubs if they can find a 3rd team to get involved in the trade to pump up the deal.

Peavy-Zambrano-Harden-Dempster-Lilly?

Good God.

A Marquis-free rotation would be wonderful.

[TheMojoPin]

i guess we'll have to agree to disagree


if we dont include stats as they pertained to team success, and team wins, then we cant have a most valuable player so a award name change needs to happen

I don't understand your sideways logic at all.

When a player is on an average or worse team and clearly propels them way ahead of where they should have been all on his own, doesn't that just emphasize how valuable he would be to ANY team? Yeah, Manny was incredibly vauable to the Dodgers...for like a month and a half. Pujols rocked it the entire season.

Why should a player be penalized because of their shitty team? If anything, a shitty team just shows how valuable a player really is if they're truly the MVP. Always giving it to a player on a good team is basically juking the stats and ignoring individual accomplishments for the sake of team numbers. It's the award for the most valuable player, not the most valuable team.

[TheMojoPin]

Rivera looks at KRod's stats and laughs like the superman he is

No kidding. For as many saves as he had, KRod's WHIP was appalling and should be a HUGE warning sign to anyone looking to give him a huge contract.

[PerryWinkle]

No kidding. For as many saves as he had, KRod's WHIP was appalling and should be a HUGE warning sign to anyone looking to give him a huge contract.

sounds perfect for the mets

[TheMojoPin]

A leadoff mans most important stats are OBP, Average, and stolen bases.

This isn't 1974. The point of a leadoff man is to get on base and score runs. Steals are superfluous at best in today's game.

A cleanup hitters most important stat is RBI's. Hence the expression "the top 3 set the table, the CLEANUP hitter clears it".

Judging a hitter's worth by their RBI's alone is as bad as judging a pitcher by their W-L record. Yes, maybe stats show he stinks with guys on base, but typically a cleanup hitter with MVP-worthy numbers except for RBI'S usually means either the #3 batter was brining in most of them, the #1-#2 hitters were getting themselves in, or the tablesetters just sucked and the cleanup guy's awesomeness was wasted. That's essentially what happened to Derrek Lee ater his amazing 2005 season...his numbers across the board were stellar...except for RBI's. Why? Because he had garabge like Corey Patterson and Neifi-fucking-Perez batting ahead of him. He has zero control over how shitty those guys are, yet the most common argument against him was his relatively low RBI stat that year, despite his states showing he still hit amazing with guys on base...he just get to do it that often because the tablesetters shit the bed game after game.

Howard was the best cleanup hitter in baseball. Strikeouts dont mean shit when you lead the league in homeruns and RBI. I think the league puts too much importance on average. Constantly getting singles without knocking runs in is fucking worthless.

This was a little payback to Pujols for losing it the year they won the series. Only difference is, Howard had better home run and RBI numbers then too.

Howard only beat out Pujols in those 2 caegories. Pujols slaughters him in every other offensive category, and is infinitely better defensively, too. And he did it while basically hurt all year, plus his HR ad RBI numbers weren't that far behind. Howard sucked offensively for basically 50% of the season and was a butcher at 1st base for 110% of the season. The only thing Howard beat him at was home runs, but hey, he plays in a fucking band box for 81 games a season and has excellen players getting on base ahead of him. Pujols hit a ton of homers with a bum elbow in a harder stadium to hit them in with tablesetters nowhere near as good as Howard had, and Howard had better lineup protection, too.

It's not even close.

[skyscraper]

This isn't 1974. The point of a leadoff man is to get on base and score runs. Steals are superfluous at best in today's game.

you can't be a serious baseball fan and think that steals are superfluous. you are right that a leadoff man has to get on base and score runs. but since most guys at the top of the order are singles hitters, the leadoff guy needs to steal so he can score those runs. the power hitters don't bat until the middle of the order, so the guy on base can't rely on big hits to get them home. gotta steal second base so the second or third in the lineup can hit them home with a single.
you must be an american league fan.

[HBox]

you can't be a serious baseball fan and think that steals are superfluous. you are right that a leadoff man has to get on base and score runs. but since most guys at the top of the order are singles hitters, the leadoff guy needs to steal so he can score those runs. the power hitters don't bat until the middle of the order, so the guy on base can't rely on big hits to get them home. gotta steal second base so the second or third in the lineup can hit them home with a single.
you must be an american league fan.

There is little to no correlation between how many bases a team steals and how many run they score, even in the mythical National League.

And he's a Cubs fan, which I thought was obvious. Every other word the guy types out is Cubs.

[Epschtein]

holy shit pedroia! keep a hat on or grow some hair!

dude's dome is gigantic, never noticed that before.

[K.C.]

Besides Dempster, Peavy is supposedly there for the Cubs if they can find a 3rd team to get involved in the trade to pump up the deal.

Peavy-Zambrano-Harden-Dempster-Lilly?

Good God.

It'll be a great rotation for another NLDS exit.

[Kris10]

Oh I said that Pujols deserved it.

I was just pointing out that some of the people who voted for Howard did so on the basis of the 'player has to be on a playoff team' premise.


And you're 100% correct. They don't want Schilling, nor should they.

Sorry, didn't read too far back so I stand corrected. We are back at 100% my friend!

[TheMojoPin]

you can't be a serious baseball fan and think that steals are superfluous. you are right that a leadoff man has to get on base and score runs. but since most guys at the top of the order are singles hitters, the leadoff guy needs to steal so he can score those runs. the power hitters don't bat until the middle of the order, so the guy on base can't rely on big hits to get them home. gotta steal second base so the second or third in the lineup can hit them home with a single.
you must be an american league fan.

I'm a NL fan forever.

The steal is outdated. If a guy is fast enough to steal a base, he's fast enough to score on a well hit ball by the power guys. All the #2 batter has to do is get the leadoff guy to 2nd and any single hit by the next batters is almost certainly going to score him. Besides, the smart thing to do is have a #2 hitter with a bit of pop. Not like the heart of the order, but the insistence of so many managers to put speedy guys with next to no power in the #2 slot is so stupid. Hell, the leadoff guy doesn't even HAVE to be fast if he gets on base a lot. If the amnger is smart and has a good hitter batting #2, just get the leadoff guy on and let the bats move him home. Stealing is too risky and too pointless with as much power as people hit for in this era. You have to pull off almost 90% of your steals for it to be worth a damn...anything less than 85-88% is actually sevrely detrimental to scoring as many runs as possible.

[TheMojoPin]

It'll be a great rotation for another NLDS exit.

Hey, just getting there increases their chances dramatially of pushing through. I'll take tanking in the playoffs on a regular basis as opposed to getting in once ever ten, fifteen or twenty or more years like they were trending before 2003.

[TonyStark]

Hey, just getting there increases their chances dramatially of pushing through. I'll take tanking in the playoffs on a regular basis as opposed to getting in once ever ten, fifteen or twenty or more years like they were trending before 2003.
Yeah, that's a good point. If they could get hitter to perform the way that the pitchers did, they'd be much better. I think that'd be a nearly perfect rotation for the Cubs, especially with Wood closing...although a few homegrown relievers wouldn't hurt.

[Marc with a c]

coco crisp to royals for reliever ramon martinez.

[TripleSkeet]

I'm a NL fan forever.

The steal is outdated. If a guy is fast enough to steal a base, he's fast enough to score on a well hit ball by the power guys. All the #2 batter has to do is get the leadoff guy to 2nd and any single hit by the next batters is almost certainly going to score him. Besides, the smart thing to do is have a #2 hitter with a bit of pop. Not like the heart of the order, but the insistence of so many managers to put speedy guys with next to no power in the #2 slot is so stupid. Hell, the leadoff guy doesn't even HAVE to be fast if he gets on base a lot. If the amnger is smart and has a good hitter batting #2, just get the leadoff guy on and let the bats move him home. Stealing is too risky and too pointless with as much power as people hit for in this era. You have to pull off almost 90% of your steals for it to be worth a damn...anything less than 85-88% is actually sevrely detrimental to scoring as many runs as possible.

Its so funny to hear you say how big an NL fan you are, yet you discount steals. The NL is all about manufacturing runs. Stealing is a key component in that. Its the difference between a guy being stranded on 3rd and scoring. Look at how many steals scored key runs in the playoffs this year.

Let me guess, bunting is overrated too, right?

Depending on your whole lineup to keep getting hits like they are in a Bugs Bunny cartoon is fucking stupid. Just like depending on home runs to win every game. Manufacturing runs is all about using every aspect of the game to score. Whether its stealing bases, bunting, hitting sac flies, walks, and leaning into pitches to get a free base. If you want to depend on nothing but hitting and power you should re-charcterize yourself as an AL fan.

[El Mudo]

Its so funny to hear you say how big an NL fan you are, yet you discount steals. The NL is all about manufacturing runs. Stealing is a key component in that. Its the difference between a guy being stranded on 3rd and scoring. Look at how many steals scored key runs in the playoffs this year.

Let me guess, bunting is overrated too, right?

Depending on your whole lineup to keep getting hits like they are in a Bugs Bunny cartoon is fucking stupid. Just like depending on home runs to win every game. Manufacturing runs is all about using every aspect of the game to score. Whether its stealing bases, bunting, hitting sac flies, walks, and leaning into pitches to get a free base. If you want to depend on nothing but hitting and power you should re-charcterize yourself as an AL fan.


Are you one of those people that thinks players with a high OBP "clog up the basepaths"?

Welcome to RonFez.net Mr. Baker! I enjoyed your time with the Cubs!

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2007/writers/richard_deitsch/01/31/qa.baker/p1_baker.jpg

[foodcourtdruide]

you can't be a serious baseball fan and think that steals are superfluous. you are right that a leadoff man has to get on base and score runs. but since most guys at the top of the order are singles hitters, the leadoff guy needs to steal so he can score those runs. the power hitters don't bat until the middle of the order, so the guy on base can't rely on big hits to get them home. gotta steal second base so the second or third in the lineup can hit them home with a single.
you must be an american league fan.

In the modern game steals are extremely overrated. In fact, the worst statistic in baseball is Caught Stealing. I'd rather have someone with 0 steals and 0 caught stealing than 20 steals 7 caught stealing.

[TheMojoPin]

Its so funny to hear you say how big an NL fan you are, yet you discount steals. The NL is all about manufacturing runs. Stealing is a key component in that. Its the difference between a guy being stranded on 3rd and scoring. Look at how many steals scored key runs in the playoffs this year.

I didn't say stealing was totoally worthless. What I said is that it's largely superfluous. I have no problem with the manager, coaches and player carefully picking their spots and going for a CRITICAL steal, but expecting or wanting a guy to steal dozens of bases each year is putting you at risk for scoring less runs than you should more often than not.

Too many mangers and fans are stuck in the mindset that steals are a critical everyday part of the game. They're not. Again, a guy needs to be successfully stealing almost 90% of the time for it to NOT be a detriment on his team. With as much power as guys hit for today and with an intelligently constructed lineup, a guy fast enough to steal is fast enough to get to 3rd or score on a well hit single.

Let me guess, bunting is overrated too, right?

If it's someone other than a picher doing it? Most of the time yes. Obviously, there are times when it's a smart idea...no outs and a guy on second and someone at the plate who isn't one of your better hitters? That's a no brainer. But the automatic assumption so many seem to have that the #2 guy should bunt the #1 guy over more times than not is just goofy. Again, a well constructed lineup makes bunting with anyone other than the #7-#9 hitters with 1 or 0 outs an exercise in futility and usually a wasted AB.

This is obviously not talking about sneak attack moves like a squeeze or a "surprise bunt."

And don't get me started on the hit and run. 9 times out of 10 it's a stupid idea. No, that's not saying it's NEVER a good idea, but usually it's jaw-droppingly stupid.

Depending on your whole lineup to keep getting hits like they are in a Bugs Bunny cartoon is fucking stupid. Just like depending on home runs to win every game. Manufacturing runs is all about using every aspect of the game to score. Whether its stealing bases, bunting, hitting sac flies, walks, and leaning into pitches to get a free base. If you want to depend on nothing but hitting and power you should re-charcterize yourself as an AL fan.

Where did I say I only want to rely on power? Look, the ideal way to move a guy over is with a hit...ANY kind of a hit. It's stupid to be acting like you should be looking to do anything but get a hit to score a run or advance a runner. The primary objective should be to score someone or move a runner up without giving up an out or putting someone at extreme risk of a wasted out like stealing does. Stealing basically gives the other team a free out since the guy is already on base. It should count as 1.5 outs since getting caught stealing is perhaps the most stupid, wasteful thing that a plaer can do on the field offensively, so wanting someone to risk that as much as possible in this day an age just seems like a glutton for punishment. The formula is simple...stack the OBP guys in front of the OPS guys and watch the runs come rolling in due to walks and hits. Anthing else is just cake and typically just asking for trouble.

[foodcourtdruide]

Next, Mojo is going to tell us that grit is overrated! GO BACK IN YOUR HOLE DRAGONSHIRT BOY.

[K.C.]

coco crisp to royals for reliever ramon martinez.

Royals might crack .500 next season.

They've ever so slowly built a pretty impressive young team. They played fantastic towards the end of the season last year.

[K.C.]

Royals might crack .500 next season.

They've ever so slowly built a pretty impressive young team. They played fantastic towards the end of the season last year.


It also just occurred to me, that the Royals' outfield was set before the Crisp trade.

Teahen - DeJesus - Guillen


I wonder if they may try and move Jose Guillen now. The Crisp deal seem to suggest another trade is in the works.

[foodcourtdruide]

It also just occurred to me, that the Royals' outfield was set before the Crisp trade.

Teahen - DeJesus - Guillen


I wonder if they may try and move Jose Guillen now. The Crisp deal seem to suggest another trade is in the works.

Ohhhhh, Guillen to the Mets for Heilman? I'm terrible with trades.

[K.C.]

Ohhhhh, Guillen to the Mets for Heilman? I'm terrible with trades.

http://www.unpleasant.org/wp-content/uploads/unpleasant/2007/11/fantasyland.jpg





Actually, from what I can gather, there's a rumor that Mark Teahen, the Royals' left-fielder will be flipped to the Cubs for a package that includes either Mike Fontenot, or Ronny Cedeno.

[TheMojoPin]

Next, Mojo is going to tell us that grit is overrated! GO BACK IN YOUR HOLE DRAGONSHIRT BOY.

Hahahahahahahaah!

[foodcourtdruide]

http://www.unpleasant.org/wp-content/uploads/unpleasant/2007/11/fantasyland.jpg





Actually, from what I can gather, there's a rumor that Mark Teahen, the Royals' left-fielder will be flipped to the Cubs for a package that includes either Mike Fontenot, or Ronny Cedeno.

I don't really like Guillen.. he's pretty average and he's only getting older.

[TheMojoPin]

http://www.unpleasant.org/wp-content/uploads/unpleasant/2007/11/fantasyland.jpg





Actually, from what I can gather, there's a rumor that Mark Teahen, the Royals' left-fielder will be flipped to the Cubs for a package that includes either Mike Fontenot, or Ronny Cedeno.

Ugh.

[PD]

I dunno if Guillen is a fit with Mets who are trying to avoid head cases.
As for trading him to Cubs, I thought Cedeno wasn't a bad player; I dunno why cubs would do that.

[K.C.]

I dunno if Guillen is a fit with Mets who are trying to avoid head cases.
As for trading him to Cubs, I thought Cedeno wasn't a bad player; I dunno why cubs would do that.

The Cubs would want Teahen.

As for why...you could platoon him with Reed Johnson, and he has some position versatility. And, he's still only 27.

That would pretty much signal the end of Fukudome, though. Not sure how they would dump him.


Trading Guillen seems more reasonable to me. He'd be a good fit for the Phillies or Mets.

The problem, is that they seem to want a middle infielder, which neither the Phillies nor Mets really have to offer.

[TripleSkeet]

I didn't say stealing was totoally worthless. What I said is that it's largely superfluous. I have no problem with the manager, coaches and player carefully picking their spots and going for a CRITICAL steal, but expecting or wanting a guy to steal dozens of bases each year is putting you at risk for scoring less runs than you should more often than not.

Too many mangers and fans are stuck in the mindset that steals are a critical everyday part of the game. They're not. Again, a guy needs to be successfully stealing almost 90% of the time for it to NOT be a detriment on his team. With as much power as guys hit for today and with an intelligently constructed lineup, a guy fast enough to steal is fast enough to get to 3rd or score on a well hit single.



If it's someone other than a picher doing it? Most of the time yes. Obviously, there are times when it's a smart idea...no outs and a guy on second and someone at the plate who isn't one of your better hitters? That's a no brainer. But the automatic assumption so many seem to have that the #2 guy should bunt the #1 guy over more times than not is just goofy. Again, a well constructed lineup makes bunting with anyone other than the #7-#9 hitters with 1 or 0 outs an exercise in futility and usually a wasted AB.

This is obviously not talking about sneak attack moves like a squeeze or a "surprise bunt."

And don't get me started on the hit and run. 9 times out of 10 it's a stupid idea. No, that's not saying it's NEVER a good idea, but usually it's jaw-droppingly stupid.



Where did I say I only want to rely on power? Look, the ideal way to move a guy over is with a hit...ANY kind of a hit. It's stupid to be acting like you should be looking to do anything but get a hit to score a run or advance a runner. The primary objective should be to score someone or move a runner up without giving up an out or putting someone at extreme risk of a wasted out like stealing does. Stealing basically gives the other team a free out since the guy is already on base. It should count as 1.5 outs since getting caught stealing is perhaps the most stupid, wasteful thing that a plaer can do on the field offensively, so wanting someone to risk that as much as possible in this day an age just seems like a glutton for punishment. The formula is simple...stack the OBP guys in front of the OPS guys and watch the runs come rolling in due to walks and hits. Anthing else is just cake and typically just asking for trouble.

I actually agree with alot of what you said. I hate the number 2 guy constantly bunting to move a guy over. Thats kind of what Im saying. Since Im a Phils fan Ill go with them. It drove me crazy when Id see Rollins on first and theyd use Victorino to bunt him over. To me personally I think when you have a guy with his speed, depending on the pitcher, you send him rather then waste Victorino on a bunt. Id rather risk Rollins then willingly just give up Victorino.

I also think having a guy with a high OPS that walks and gets hits alot benifits you even more when he has the speed to steal.

And Im a big suicide squeeze guy even though teams NEVER do it anymore. I still dont get that. If they do use it its only in the World Series where it almost always works.

I also hate hit and runs.

I guess Im just more a "high risk high reward" guy. Always have been.

[K.C.]

That would pretty much signal the end of Fukudome, though. Not sure how they would dump him.


Or maybe not.

I guess if they traded Fontenot, they could move DeRosa back to 2B, and then mix and match Johnson, Teahen, and Fukudome in the corner spots depending on matchups.

[NYHCmikeX]

That would pretty much signal the end of Fukudome, though. Not sure how they would dump him.


I heard they wanted to get rid of him regardless, but no one wants his huge contract and below average stats.

[IMSlacker]

That Teahen rumor is based on a Phil Rogers article, and therefore, is total crap.

[TheMojoPin]

I heard they wanted to get rid of him regardless, but no one wants his huge contract and below average stats.

What are you talking about? This has absolutely no basis in reality. They announced weeks ago that he's being slotted over to CF. There's never been even a rumbling that they want to try and get rid of him, and they'd be stupid to do so.

[TheMojoPin]

The Cubs would want Teahen.

As for why...you could platoon him with Reed Johnson, and he has some position versatility. And, he's still only 27.

Why would they want Teahen? He's not very good. You say only 27, but that's pretty damn old for him to have not really roduced anything worth a damn. He's done nothing to indicate he's more than a 4th OFer.

[K.C.]

Why would they want Teahen? He's not very good. You say only 27, but that's pretty damn old for him to have not really roduced anything worth a damn. He's done nothing to indicate he's more than a 4th OFer.

It's not like they're giving up the farm to get him.

Fontenot projects anywhere from a middle of the road infielder to a high-end utility player. Cedeno has yet to really have the success people thought he may.

Plus, 27 isn't old for a position player. It's generally regarded as the first year of a player's prime.

Statistically, I think a lot of people have made significant jumps at the age of 27. Teahen was a blue-chip prospect when he was drafted, and in the minors. It's perfectly conceivable that he takes a big step forward this season.

[NYHCmikeX]

What are you talking about? This has absolutely no basis in reality. They announced weeks ago that he's being slotted over to CF. There's never been even a rumbling that they want to try and get rid of him, and they'd be stupid to do so.

The Cubs want to move Japanese import Kosuke Fukudome, but that’s a tough sell -- to any team, not just the Royals -- because he slumped badly last season over the closing months and is owed $38 million over the next three years.

A more-likely possibility is Felix Pie, a 23-year-old once viewed as a can’t-miss prospect. Pie batted just .223 in 260 at-bats with the Cubs over the last two years after posting strong minor-league numbers.


Now, find the article you wrote for mlb.com before you attack me like I made some shit up our of my asshole.

[IMSlacker]

Now, find the article you wrote for mlb.com before you attack me like I made some shit up our of my asshole.

There's no way "Dick Kaegel" is a real person. Shenanigans!

[NYHCmikeX]

There's no way "Dick Kaegel" is a real person. Shenanigans!

I didnt even notice that. I never understood people who are named Richard and choose to be called Dick. Especially if your last name sounds like a pussy exercise.

[Knowledged_one]

The head of the olympic doping agency is named dick hurtz

[brettmojo]

I didn't say stealing was totoally worthless. What I said is that it's largely superfluous.......................
A guy with speed who can steal a base at any time completely disrupts the pitching of the opposing team. You don't even have to actually steal the base, but the threat of that stolen base can screw with a pitcher to the point where his mind isn't totally on the batter and mistake pitches can ensue.

It's speed. It's just as important of an aspect of the game as anything else. Not stealing itself, but speed which is base stealing is a part of. It makes a team more complete. To have no speed or not to use it puts any team at a disadvantage. Tell the Red Sox how superfluous Dave Roberts stealing that base against the Yankees was.

The Blue Jays for years completely ignored base stealing and it got them nowhere. For the genius that Billy Bean is the idea that you can completely abandoned stealing bases is retarded.

[NYHCmikeX]

Why would they want Teahen? He's not very good. You say only 27, but that's pretty damn old for him to have not really roduced anything worth a damn. He's done nothing to indicate he's more than a 4th OFer.

As opposed to Fukudome,(.257/10/58) who had almost IDENTICAL, but worse stats than Teahen (.255/15/59 and is 4 years older and made about $5 million more?

A guy with speed who can steal a base at any time completely disrupts the pitching of the opposing team.

Exactly. Look at the Mets stats as to when Jose Reyes gets a hit and when he doesnt, I dont know them for sure but they are ridiculous. When he hits, they win. Because his speed disrupts the pitcher. Crawford is the same way in regard to how he effects the pitcher, except his team doesnt live or die by him.

Tampa Bay led the league in stolen bases this year.
Philly was 4th.

I'm sure they both found those extra 142 and 136 (respectfully) bases really superfluous when they were in the World Series.

And when Rickey Henderson gets into the Hall of Fame, I'll drive up to Cooperstown and tell him his stats were superfluous and didnt mean anything.

[TheMojoPin]

As opposed to Fukudome,(.257/10/58) who had almost IDENTICAL, but worse stats than Teahen (.255/15/59 and is 4 years older and made about $5 million more?

The difference is huge. Teahen has been average at best pretty much his entire career. It would be very surprising if Fukudome doesn't drastically improve his numbers from last year given his history of success and how smart a player he is. Yeah, there's a lot of difference between the Japanese leagues and here, but Fukudome performed at a all-star level over there for years which still tranlates to much better than anything Teahan has done at any stage.

Why are we arguing over Teahan? He sucks. Nobody should want him.

Exactly. Look at the Mets stats as to when Jose Reyes gets a hit and when he doesnt, I dont know them for sure but they are ridiculous. When he hits, they win. Because his speed disrupts the pitcher.

Wow, that's a massive leap. They win because they score runs. Reyes doesn't "disrupt" the pitcher. He's just so fast that he's that much of a threat on the basepaths. The "disrupt" theory is just more intangable bullshit that doesn't really play out in the end and most pitchers say is a load of crap. A good pitcher isn't bugged by someone on base, and anythone thinking that it's a major factor is deluding themselves.

Are there pitchers who can't handle baserunners? Sure. By and large, they're not good pitchers. At the end of the day, most pitchers are smart enough to realize that it's not worth getting worked up over something that fails too often for it to not be a detriment to the team trying it.

"Hey, I successfully steal bases 80% of the time!"

"Congratulations! You just hurt your team."

Tampa Bay led the league in stolen bases this year.
Philly was 4th.

I'm sure they both found those extra 142 and 136 (respectfully) bases really superfluous when they were in the World Series.

Wow, this is FJM.com worthy. Talk about cherrypicking your stats...you know why those teams ended up where they did. LOOK AT THE STATS THAT MATTER. To act like stolen bases are a signifcant part of how winning teams get to where they end up today is laughable. They're cake for teams that pitch and hit well.

Please list the top 10 stolen base teams. It'll be a hoot.

And when Rickey Henderson gets into the Hall of Fame, I'll drive up to Cooperstown and tell him his stats were superfluous and didnt mean anything.

Way to totally spin what I said. I said they're mostly superfluous in TODAY'S GAME, not when he played at his peak. On top of that, Henderson was a fucking freak. Putting him out there as the norm for stolen bases is like putting Marino Riera as the norm for closers. Of course if even a handful of people could steal like Ricky Henderson you'd see steals being much more important. They don't. As such, it's a move where you need to succeed almost 90% of the time for it to NOT HURT YOUR TEAM.

Agan, I'm not saying NEVER STEAL, but most of the time they're a waste of a baserunner and a totally unecessary risk that hurts a team far more than it helps.

[K.C.]

The difference is huge. Teahen has been average at best pretty much his entire career. It would be very surprising if Fukudome doesn't drastically improve his numbers from last year given his history of success and how smart a player he is. Yeah, there's a lot of difference between the Japanese leagues and here, but Fukudome performed at a all-star level over there for years which still tranlates to much better than anything Teahan has done at any stage.

Why are we arguing over Teahan? He sucks. Nobody should want him.

I think you're just completely and utterly wrong about this one.

First, there's a rich history of Japanese stars who don't live up to the hype in MLB. I'm not going to say that means Fukudome will be a flop, but it's ridiculous to say it'd be 'surprising' if he doesn't 'drastically' turn it around.

No, it wouldn't.

Second, to say that a guy with the tools of Teahan sucks is writing him off way too soon, especially when he's out performed 2/3rds of the Cubs' starting outfield (Johnson, Fukudome) so far in his career.

I'll quote Sportsline on MLB's 27-year old theory.

If you need a refresher: The theory behind 27-year-old breakouts is based on medical research that suggests a man's body reaches its physical peak at that age. Also, after years of seasoning and pro experience everything comes together for career highs across the board.

Granted, there are exceptions to every rule. For instance: Bobby Crosby was 27 last year and arguably as worthless as we have ever seen him. Dan Johnson, Chad Tracy and Chris Burke were all 27, too, and nearly equally worthless.

But you can't argue with nature and science.

Last year's notably improved:
-Chris Snyder
-Kelly Shoppach
-Mike Jacobs
-Brandon Phillips
-Mike Fontenot
-Ben Zobrist
-Ryan Garko
-Kevin Kouzmanoff
-Shane Victorino
-Josh Hamilton
-Fred Lewis
-Daisuke Matsuzaka
-Oliver Perez
-Ryan Madson


It would not surprise me in the least, given Teahen's tools, if he went .280/25/90 next season. Especially at Wrigley.

[TheMojoPin]

I think you're just completely and utterly wrong about this one.

First, there's a rich history of Japanese stars who don't live up to the hype in MLB. I'm not going to say that means Fukudome will be a flop, but it's ridiculous to say it'd be 'surprising' if he doesn't 'drastically' turn it around.

No, it wouldn't.

It really would. Guys on Fukudome's level haven't come over here as much, and when they have they've typically found success once they've adjusted. Most of the guys that tanked back never had the sustained success Fukudome had. And I say "drastically" because his final numbers are pretty easy to drastically beat even if he just meets the conservative projections for what he can likely do. I'd be stunned if, knowing exactly what he has to change and having the whole offseason to work on it with the team, that his numbers aren't much better next season.

Second, to say that a guy with the tools of Teahan sucks is writing him off way too soon, especially when he's out performed 2/3rds of the Cubs' starting outfield (Johnson, Fukudome) so far in his career.

It would not surprise me in the least, given Teahen's tools, if he went .280/25/90 next season. Especially at Wrigley.

Tools, shmools. Tools are the great intangables that ultimately don't mean shit except for "if only..." Production is the bottom line, and in the minors and majors Teahan has shown little that indicates he's likely to be what the Cubs need...a starting corner OFer who is a real power threat. Teahan might be an option if CF was bare...but it's not. They're not going to move Fukudome or try and get out of his deal. Teahan is almost certainly not the answer as a corner OFer for the Cubs. Exceptions to the rule aside, 27 is generally too old to hoping for a guy to "break out" from years of unremarkable playing. Most of the guys listed had histories up until 27 far more impressive than Teahan's. Teahan has been "meh" so far. He'd have to improve in a BIG way to back up the 27 theory.

[andy from A.V]

OF coco crisp to royals
RHP ramon ramirez to redsox:ohmy:

[K.C.]

Tools, shmools. Tools are the great intangables that ultimately don't mean shit except for "if only..." Production is the bottom line, and in the minors and majors Teahan has shown little that indicates he's likely to be what the Cubs need...a starting corner OFer who is a real power threat. Teahan might be an option if CF was bare...but it's not. They're not going to move Fukudome or try and get out of his deal. Teahan is almost certainly not the answer as a corner OFer for the Cubs. Exceptions to the rule aside, 27 is generally too old to hoping for a guy to "break out" from years of unremarkable playing. Most of the guys listed had histories up until 27 far more impressive than Teahan's.

Actually, whether a deal is beneficial is the bottom line.

I don't see the rationale of having three second basemen on the team.

DeRosa should be your starting second baseman, Fukudome should be the starting centerfielder (until they determine Pie is ready).

Fontenot or Cedeno can easily cover backing up the middle infield, but there's no need for both.

So if you can flip one for a guy who at WORST, gives you a good left-handed bat to start in RF against righties (with Johnson against lefties), the Cubs benefit more from that, then a log jam in the middle infield.


If they were talking about giving up Sean Marshall for Teahen, I'd be with you...I wouldn't give up quality young pitching for a guy like Teahen.

But borderline middle-infielders? Hell yeah. It's a low risk, high reward move.

[TheMojoPin]

Actually, whether a deal is beneficial is the bottom line.

I don't see the rationale of having three second basemen on the team.

DeRosa should be your starting second baseman, Fukudome should be the starting centerfielder (until they determine Pie is ready).

Fontenot or Cedeno can easily cover backing up the middle infield, but there's no need for both.

So if you can flip one for a guy who at WORST, gives you a good left-handed bat to start in RF against righties (with Johnson against lefties), the Cubs benefit more from that, then a log jam in the middle infield.


If they were talking about giving up Sean Marshall for Teahen, I'd be with you...I wouldn't give up quality young pitching for a guy like Teahen.

But borderline middle-infielders? Hell yeah. It's a low risk, high reward move.

If it was just one of or even both those guys, great, but the report said they'd be part of a package. The Cubs have parts to trade, but not a lot to spare.

[K.C.]

If it was just one of or even both those guys, great, but the report said they'd be part of a package. The Cubs have parts to trade, but not a lot to spare.

I would imagine the lynchpin would be one of the middle infielders, though, and anything else would be a marginal throw in.

The Royals are obsessed with moving Mike Aviles to 2B...they were rumored to be heavily pursuing Furcal, but they don't have the cash for him.

If there's additional pieces, I imagine it's a mid-level AA prospect or something, or maybe a borderline bullpen arm, with a little upside (Angel Guzman?).

Nothing the Cubs would really regret, I would think.

[underdog]

For the genius that Billy Bean is the idea that you can completely abandoned stealing bases is retarded.

Beane believes in not giving up outs. According to Bill James, a player has to be like nearly 99% successful in SBs in order for it to work out over time.

Please list the top 10 stolen base teams. It'll be a hoot.

1 Tampa Bay
2 Colorado
3 NY Mets
4 Philadelphia
5 LA Angels
6 LA Dodgers
7 Boston
8 NY Yankees
9 Houston
10 Milwaukee

[TheMojoPin]

1 Tampa Bay
2 Colorado
3 NY Mets
4 Philadelphia
5 LA Angels
6 LA Dodgers
7 Boston
8 NY Yankees
9 Houston
10 Milwaukee

Now the list of OBP.

If you see what I'm getting at, a team's total numers of stolen bases doesn't really prove dick outside of usually it means the team got on base a lot ad had more chances to steal bases. The main part of that is the getting on base...getting more guys on base means, more often than not, you'll score more runs than most other teams. The base stealing is superfluous to that...it's not as if they weren't going to score more runs without the steals; they were because of the guys getting on base and then being hit in.

[TheMojoPin]

Beane believes in not giving up outs. According to Bill James, a player has to be like nearly 99% successful in SBs in order for it to work out over time.

Are you sure it's that high? I thought it was approx. 88%.

[underdog]

Are you sure it's that high? I thought it was approx. 88%.

You're probably more right. But it's higher than most base stealers achieve.

Now the list of OBP.

1 Boston
2 Chicago Cubs
3 Texas
4 St. Louis
5 Atlanta
6 NY Yankees
7 Detroit
8 NY Mets
9 Minnesota
10 Tampa Bay

If you see what I'm getting at, a team's total numers of stolen bases doesn't really prove dick outside of usually it means the team got on base a lot ad had more chances to steal bases. The main part of that is the getting on base...getting more guys on base means, more often than not, you'll score more runs than most other teams. The base stealing is superfluous to that...it's not as if they weren't going to score more runs without the steals; they were because of the guys getting on base and then being hit in.

I'm not trying to argue points, I just bring the stats. I've been looking for the league leaders in grit and determination, but they are kind of hard to find. I bet Eckstein is up there in the leaders.

[TripleSkeet]

Are you sure it's that high? I thought it was approx. 88%.

Im pretty sure the exact number was just in a recent sports illustrated article. Interesting enough it was a pretty long article about how base stealing has become an art form and much great base stealing helps benefit a team in todays game.

[TheMojoPin]

You're probably more right. But it's higher than most base stealers achieve.

Exactly. Most guys are actually hurting their team's chances to score severely by trying to steal bases because the level required to make it successful is so high.



1 Boston
2 Chicago Cubs
3 Texas
4 St. Louis
5 Atlanta
6 NY Yankees
7 Detroit
8 NY Mets
9 Minnesota
10 Tampa Bay



I'm not trying to argue points, I just bring the stats. I've been looking for the league leaders in grit and determination, but they are kind of hard to find. I bet Eckstein is up there in the leaders.

Him and Ryan Theriot belong in the grit HOF. I was gonna drag this out like an ass, but then I was gonna say post the slugging and the OPS and then runs scored and then the better pitching stats. That was gonna take longer than I thought.

[TheMojoPin]

Im pretty sure the exact number was just in a recent sports illustrated article. Interesting enough it was a pretty long article about how base stealing has become an art form and much great base stealing helps benefit a team in todays game.

I know it's not lower than 85%. 85% is the lowest level where you can consider a regular base stealer as having a positive effect on his team's ablity to score runs. Anything less than that is actual detrimental.

Look, if a guy is insaely good at stealing bases, hey, go nuts...there's just not that many of them. Even if you get a really fast guy he's probably not smart or skilled enough or quick thinking enough to be an elite baserunner. Most of those guys aren't drilled in that area because it's so unecessary today. If you're fast enough to steal a ton of bases, again, you're fast enough to get to 3rd or even score on a well hit single. The odds are much more in your favor to bank on that and score runs that way tha to steal bases, which has such a ridiculous failure rate.

[IMSlacker]

According to Wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_base)

Noted statistician Bill James has argued that unless a player can steal a high percentage of the time, then the stolen base is not useful, and can even be detrimental to a team. A success rate of 67 to 70% or better is necessary to make stealing bases worthwhile.

[brettmojo]

According to Wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_base)
That's too low. You gotta' be at least 80%. I think for players stealing 20 or less it should be 80%, up to 30 between 75% and 80% and anything 40 or more at least 75%.

[TheMojoPin]

According to Wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_base)

Now I'm really confused. I've thought I always heard 85%.

Baseball Prospectus says anything less than 75% is a waste. (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2607)

Shit, 75% is still really, really hard and usually not worth the effort of sacrificing a guy already on base.

[underdog]

Him and Ryan Theriot belong in the grit HOF. I was gonna drag this out like an ass, but then I was gonna say post the slugging and the OPS and then runs scored and then the better pitching stats. That was gonna take longer than I thought.

The numbers are really going to start meaning nothing once we hit slugging and OPS, unless I missed something and Texas won the WS.

[K.C.]

Six of the the eight playoff teams this year had four players who attempted double digits in steals and stole over 70%.

Anyone who watched this year's playoffs saw how stolen bases were key this season...especially in the World Series.

So I would say that's a pretty good line in the sand....70%.

It strikes me as interesting that all of them have exactly four, as well.


Chase Utley (87% - 14 of 16)
Jimmy Rollins (94% - 47 of 50)
Shane Victorino (76% - 36 of 47)
Jayson Werth (95% - 20 of 21)

Jason Bartlett (76% - 20 of 26)
Carl Crawford (78% - 25 of 32)
B.J. Upton (73% - 44 of 60)
Eric Hinske (76% - 10 of 13)

Russell Martin (75% - 18 of 24)
Juan Pierre (77% - 40 of 52)
Matt Kemp (76% - 35 of 46)
Rafael Furcal (72% - 8 of 11)

Dustin Pedroia (95% - 20 of 21)
Julio Lugo (75% - 12 of 16)
Coco Crisp (74% - 20 of 26)
Jacoby Ellsbury (82% - 50 of 61)

Howie Kendrick (73% - 11 of 15)
Chone Figgins (72% - 34 of 47)
Torii Hunter (79% - 19 of 24)
Macier Izturis (85% - 11 of 13)

Rickie Weeks (79% - 19 of 24)
Ryan Braun (78% - 14 of 18)
Mike Cameron (77% - 17 of 22)
Corey Hart (76% - 23 of 30)

[K.C.]

And just to stick it to Mojo...both Chicago teams were the two that didn't meet that criteria.

And they won exactly one game between them in the postseason.

[underdog]

Jimmy Rollins (94% - 47 of 50)

That number is fucking retarded.

[K.C.]

That number is fucking retarded.

Credit Davy Lopes.

He's made all those Phillies into unbelievable base stealers.

Even Victorino, who used to hover around 50% in the minors, is relatively good at it now.

[TheGameHHH]

i know you guys are going to think im mocking you, but this is actually a pretty fucking cool and intelligent baseball discussion. why doesnt shit like this happen in the Yankees thread?

[Marc with a c]

twas good reading.

[TheMojoPin]

And just to stick it to Mojo...both Chicago teams were the two that didn't meet that criteria.

And they won exactly one game between them in the postseason.

That's goofy logic.

What do you need to have a bunch of successful stolen base attempts? A bunch of baserunners. What did the Cubs have in the tiny sample size of the 1st round? Not evnough baserunners. Talk about expecting the chicken before the egg...

And the Sox were one of the slowest teams in baseball. Outside of Ramirez, they were lucky if most of their guys could just run between the bases normally.

[sailor]

twas good reading.

do you have any say in this type of strategic thinking on your team?

[El Mudo]

Mike Mussina is retiring (http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=256538&lid=sublink012&lpos=headlines_main)

HOF? I'm gonna say borderline, but no...

His ERA + career is only 123, although his WHIP career is pretty low, but when his career comparables include David Wells, Curt Schilling, Kevin Brown and Jack Morris, i gotta say no

[K.C.]

That's goofy logic.

What do you need to have a bunch of successful stolen base attempts? A bunch of baserunners. What did the Cubs have in the tiny sample size of the 1st round? Not evnough baserunners. Talk about expecting the chicken before the egg...

And the Sox were one of the slowest teams in baseball. Outside of Ramirez, they were lucky if most of their guys could just run between the bases normally.

It's not goofy logic, but it's not an end all, be all formula for success.

That said, stealing bases and team speed is a huge factor, especially when there's comparable talent on the field like in the MLB playoffs.

[PD]

Mike Mussina is retiring (http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=256538&lid=sublink012&lpos=headlines_main)

HOF? I'm gonna say borderline, but no...

His ERA + career is only 123, although his WHIP career is pretty low, but when his career comparables include David Wells, Curt Schilling, Kevin Brown and Jack Morris, i gotta say no

how many years did you ever think Mussina was the best pitcher in baseball?

[K.C.]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2008/11/19/2008-11-19_aaron_heilman_wants_starting_role_with_m.html


I would miss Heilman...he sparked many a Phillies comeback.

[El Mudo]

how many years did you ever think Mussina was the best pitcher in baseball?

I judge purely by numbers, and his are borderline at best

[K.C.]

Mike Mussina is retiring (http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=256538&lid=sublink012&lpos=headlines_main)

HOF? I'm gonna say borderline, but no...

His ERA + career is only 123, although his WHIP career is pretty low, but when his career comparables include David Wells, Curt Schilling, Kevin Brown and Jack Morris, i gotta say no

I think it's a general rule of thumb that if you're borderline, and you played for an extended period with the Yankees, Red Sox, or Dodgers, you get in.

So I'd expect him to get in.

But I wonder what he'll go in as. 10 years with the O's, eight with the Yanks. Obviously, his better years are with the O's, but he pitched in many more meaningful games with the Yanks.

[foodcourtdruide]

I judge purely by numbers, and his are borderline at best

I think you have to put it into context of the time period they pitched in. Mussina was incredibly consistant and had a GREAT career, however at no point was he the best pitcher in baseball. Mussina calls into question what the hall of fame is exactly, is it for the elite or the great? Because Mussina was not elite.

[foodcourtdruide]

I think it's a general rule of thumb that if you're borderline, and you played for an extended period with the Yankees, Red Sox, or Dodgers, you get in.

So I'd expect him to get in.

But I wonder what he'll go in as. 10 years with the O's, eight with the Yanks. Obviously, his better years are with the O's, but he pitched in many more meaningful games with the Yanks.

I'd honestly have no problem with either.

[El Mudo]

I think you have to put it into context of the time period they pitched in. Mussina was incredibly consistant and had a GREAT career, however at no point was he the best pitcher in baseball. Mussina calls into question what the hall of fame is exactly, is it for the elite or the great? Because Mussina was not elite.

Thats what ERA + is for...Mussina's career ERA + of 123 means he was only 23% better than the AVERAGE pitcher of his era, and that's not good enough to get in IMO

[razorboy]

Mike Mussina is retiring (http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=256538&lid=sublink012&lpos=headlines_main)

HOF? I'm gonna say borderline, but no...

His ERA + career is only 123, although his WHIP career is pretty low, but when his career comparables include David Wells, Curt Schilling, Kevin Brown and Jack Morris, i gotta say no

It's possible, but I certainly don't consider him Hall worthy.

[TheMojoPin]

Thats what ERA + is for...Mussina's career ERA + of 123 means he was only 23% better than the AVERAGE pitcher of his era, and that's not good enough to get in IMO

God, I love your baseball posts. You are a gentleman of science and reason, good sir.

[TheMojoPin]

It's not goofy logic, but it's not an end all, be all formula for success.

That said, stealing bases and team speed is a huge factor, especially when there's comparable talent on the field like in the MLB playoffs.

"Huge factor" on what kind of scale? Compared to what? "Huge factor" implies, to me, like it's a critical part of being a winning team.

[K.C.]

"Huge factor" on what kind of scale? Compared to what? "Huge factor" implies, to me, like it's a critical part of being a winning team.

There are things that are 'critical' and there are things that are 'factors.'

OBP...hitting w/ RISP...those are critical. Teams that don't get runners on and don't hit with runners in scoring position are at a disadvantage (that only superior pitching can really even out).

Stolen bases are a huge factor, if you have guys that steal at over a 70% clip.

I'm not sure of the exact net total of runs manufactured, but I would imagine that if you have a guy who steals 7 out of 10 bases, the number of times that guy scores because of the stolen base outweighs the number of missed opportunities the team would have had to score, on the 3 out of 10 times he would be thrown out.

But that would delve in to some advanced sabermetrics, and certain educated conjectures that would take me quite a while to assemble and prove exactly how big of an advantage it is statistically.


If you just step back from the stats, though, and think about it logically. If you have guys you can depend on to steal a reasonable clip, it gives you the opportunity to continually apply pressure when your team is tied or has a lead.

Obviously, certain things mean more in certain situations. For instance, if you make the first out, getting thrown out stealing when your team if down four runs...that is much more costly than making the first out when your team is up four runs.


But the bottom line, for me, is that steal % is a much more important statstic than total steals, and that if two teams are comparable offensively (OBP, RISP), you'd have to give a slight edge to one over the other if they can steal at a high percentage.

[TheMojoPin]

If you just step back from the stats, though, and think about it logically. If you have guys you can depend on to steal a reasonable clip, it gives you the opportunity to continually apply pressure when your team is tied or has a lead.

Agreed...I just don't think there are enough guys that can do it at a productive clip.

But the bottom line, for me, is that steal % is a much more important statstic than total steals, and that a team that if two teams are comparable offensively (OBP, RISP), you'd have to give a slight edge to one over the other if they can steal at a high percentage.

Definitely.

[K.C.]

Now where this argument takes an interesting turn, is:

What's more valuable in a leadoff hitter....a guy like Jimmy Rollins who only has an OBP of .350, but steals bases at a 95% success rate, or a guy like Brian Giles, who has a .400 OBP, but doesn't steal bases.

(obviously, Rollins is a better all around player, but if you're talking about what's more conducive to scoring runs, it's an interesting debate).

[TheMojoPin]

Now where this argument takes an interesting turn, is:

What's more valuable in a leadoff hitter....a guy like Jimmy Rollins who only has an OBP of .350, but steals bases at a 95% success rate, or a guy like Brian Giles, who has a .400 OBP, but doesn't steal bases.

(obviously, Rollins is a better all around player, but if you're talking about what's more conducive to scoring runs, it's an interesting debate).

Most certainly. That's what I continually point out to people questioning Soriano as a leadoff hitter. Yeah, it would be ideal if he could produce the same lower in the order, but for whatever reason, he doesn't. As a leadoff hitter, sure, his OBP isn't ideal, but if the point of a leadoff hitter is to create/generate runs, he's one of the very best.

[foodcourtdruide]

But the bottom line, for me, is that steal % is a much more important statstic than total steals, and that if two teams are comparable offensively (OBP, RISP), you'd have to give a slight edge to one over the other if they can steal at a high percentage.

I completely agree. Steal percentage is much more important.

[Bossanova]

Utlet to have surgery, may be out until May or June. AWWWWWWWW

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8822604/Phils'-Utley,-Feliz-set-for-have-surgery

[HBox]

Utlet to have surgery, may be out until May or June. AWWWWWWWW

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8822604/Phils'-Utley,-Feliz-set-for-have-surgery

They will really need to mount a late season charge. Too bad their chief rivals are good at holding on to a lead in September.

[K.C.]

Utlet to have surgery, may be out until May or June. AWWWWWWWW

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8822604/Phils'-Utley,-Feliz-set-for-have-surgery

That's worst case.

He'll be back by the end of April.

Besides, it's not like there's competition in the NL East.

[NYHCmikeX]

That's worst case.

He'll be back by the end of April.

Besides, it's not like there's competition in the NL East.

Or you can do every Met fan I know a favor and take Luis Castillo for a cheesesteak. Have some mercy on the poor chokers.

[Bossanova]

They will really need to mount a late season charge. Too bad their chief rivals are good at holding on to a lead in September.

That's worst case.

He'll be back by the end of April.

Besides, it's not like there's competition in the NL East.

To hell with the both of you!

[foodcourtdruide]

That's worst case.

He'll be back by the end of April.

Besides, it's not like there's competition in the NL East.

Aren't you optimistic oscar? :P

[K.C.]

Aren't you optimistic oscar? :P

The physical recovery time for the injury is 3-4 months.

The extra time tacked on is because they don't know how long it will take him to get ready. Having seen Utley for years, it won't take him too long before he makes the Phillies put him on the active roster.

So I'd say he's healed up by late March...takes three weeks or so of extended Spring Training and is back and ready to go around the end of April.


You have to remember. Utley injured his hip in Spring Training LAST season. He played the entire 2008 season needing hip surgery.

It's hard to make him not play.

[KnoxHarrington]

So that we won't have the confusion that we had when Game 5 of the World Series got suspended by rain this year, MLB has officially passed a rule that no playoff game -- including tiebreaker games to get into the playoffs, as well as all three rounds of the playoffs -- can be shortened by weather.

So if a game is rained out after the 5th inning, even if one team is ahead, the game is not called. Instead, it's suspended until later.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/11/20/playoffs.shortened.ap/index.html

[cougarjake13]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2008/11/19/2008-11-19_aaron_heilman_wants_starting_role_with_m.html


I would miss Heilman...he sparked many a Phillies comeback.


see i been saying this for years,, the guy wants to start and the mets will never let him


he hasnt caused any club house trouble but i said it in the mets thread he's prob not pitching a 100% mentally b/c he still wants to start

[cougarjake13]

That's worst case.

He'll be back by the end of April.

Besides, it's not like there's competition in the NL East.



your wrong


there's competition up til sept 15

[cougarjake13]

So that we won't have the confusion that we had when Game 5 of the World Series got suspended by rain this year, MLB has officially passed a rule that no playoff game -- including tiebreaker games to get into the playoffs, as well as all three rounds of the playoffs -- can be shortened by weather.

So if a game is rained out after the 5th inning, even if one team is ahead, the game is not called. Instead, it's suspended until later.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/11/20/playoffs.shortened.ap/index.html




somebody tell donovan mcnabb

[PD]

what is this about Chase Utley's hip?

I just heard John Heyman say he could be out till June
and Jayson stark posted this:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3715241

[K.C.]

what is this about Chase Utley's hip?

I just heard John Heyman say he could be out till June
and Jayson stark posted this:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3715241

It's anywhere from he'll miss no time and play Opening Day, to early June.

I'm predicting Late April/Early May.

Good thing the Phils' top positional prospect is a middle infielder. He'll fill in.

[K.C.]

So let's start looking at some of these different teams. Maybe like two a day or so.

Here's Seattle and Oakland:


http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/5995/marinersdk4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/marinersdk4.jpg/1/w468.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img186/marinersdk4.jpg/1/)

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/9290/assm2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/assm2.jpg/1/w439.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img92/assm2.jpg/1/)


Seattle is a mess, but they're not that far off.

Almost half their current payroll comes off the books after 2009, with Beltre, Bedard, Washburn, and Batista leaving.

That Silva signing is still one of the worst ever, though.

Lopez and Betancourt is a decent young infield. Felix Hernandez is still growing in to the top starter role. J.J. Putz and Ryan Rowland-Smith is actually a very good back of the bullpen.

They need to consider dumping Beltre and Washburn for whatever they can get.

Bedard, they could probably shop for a decent package if he shows he's healthy. Ideally, if they could find a way to dump Johjima and Batista, it would be great, but nobody wants them.

They will easily be the worst team in the AL West next year, though.



I like this year's A's team a lot. They have a very good, young, bullpen, and while there's not much of a track record in the rotation after Duchscherer, everyone in that rotation, except Outman, has front line starting potential.

They should sign Giambi to DH and shift Jack Cust to 1B.

Then, I think they should deal a young bullpen arm to get Aaron Heilman from the Mets, and move him into the rotation, and then sign one veteran starter like Freddy Garcia, Pedro Martinez, or Randy Johnson.

They're not going to be on the level of the Angels next year, but they'll be competitive, and in the Wild Card hunt well into August, and maybe September.

[Kris10]

I'm not concerned with Ut & Feliz's surgeries. They'll be ready when we need them & I'm glad they both were able to get through the post season when it counted. And it'll give Dobbs some playing time at 3rd. Take the time you need guys!

F you, Boss! :wub:

[K.C.]

Idiot.

Dodgers' Billingsley fractures leg in fall, undergoes surgery
Nov. 22, 2008
CBSSports.com wire reports


Share this page.

LOS ANGELES -- Dodgers pitcher Chad Billingsley had surgery on Saturday after fracturing his leg in a fall at his Pennsylvania home.

Team spokesman Josh Rawitch said that the 24-year-old Billingsley slipped on ice outside his house in Reading, Pa., and suffered a spiral fracture of the fibula in his left leg on Friday.

He had surgery to put a plate in and will be in a cast for two weeks. Rawitch said the surgery went as expected and Billingsley should be ready to throw by spring training.

Rawitch said the surgery was performed by Dr. Paul Neuman, an orthopedic surgeon in Reading, after consulting with team surgeon Dr. Neal ElAttrache.

Billingsley was 16-10 with a 3.14 ERA this past season. He lost Game 2 and Game 5 of the National League Championship Series against the Philadelphia Phillies.

[K.C.]

Here's the Rangers and Angels

http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/9656/rangersbw9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/2567/angelsfl9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/angelsfl9.jpg/1/w426.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img55/angelsfl9.jpg/1/)



Texas has a great offense, but needs pitching desperately. Kevin Millwood and Vicente Padilla were horrific signings.

If they could find a way to dump them, that would help tremendously, and free up payroll to go after someone decent.

It's kind of hard to handicap what they're going to do this offseason, because they could hold steady on payroll, or they could bump, possibly as high as 100 million.

They definitely need a closer and Kerry Wood makes sense. They're also going to trade a catcher or two, seeing as they have a legit MLB catcher, and three amazing catching prospects.

Shipping Saltalamacchia to Boston for Clay Buchholz would be a good move. Other than that, Ben Sheets would be a good fit. So would Brad Penny.



The Angels are easily the deepest team in baseball, and may be the best run organization. For all their talent, they still are 30-35 million under where they want to be payroll wise.

There's no reason they shouldn't resign Teixieira if they want him. After that, they're pretty close to set.

Maybe they take a run at a shortstop like Orlando Cabrera. They definitely could use bullpen help. Resigning Darren Oliver as a long man would be a good move. Taking a flier on Chad Cordero would be another good move.

Otherwise, I expect them to add a middle reliever like Juan Cruz.

K-Rod is an interesting case. The Angels do have some interest, but at the right price.

The problem there, is that I'm not sure Jose Arrendondo isn't a better potential closer projecting forward.

[hexy68]

Citigroup can't pay their bills and needs a bailout from the gov., yet they have $20 mill a year for 20 yrs 9yes $400 million) to put their name on a baseball stadium...am i they only one angry about this :furious:

[PD]

Citigroup can't pay their bills and needs a bailout from the gov., yet they have $20 mill a year for 20 yrs 9yes $400 million) to put their name on a baseball stadium...am i they only one angry about this :furious:

only cause you are a phillies fan.....

its about advertising. they have more than $20 mil to spend with advertising
I'd be more annoyed at the executive bonuses.

[hexy68]

only cause you are a phillies fan.....

its about advertising. they have more than $20 mil to spend with advertising
I'd be more annoyed at the executive bonuses.

city or teams isn't an issue with me PD...i'm annoyed with companies that should be forced to go into bankruptcy to clean up it's act, instead being given taxpayer $$...not just Citi but GM too...but this is a baseball thread so i digress :bye:

[skyscraper]

Think they're not desperate in Pittsburgh?
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3724303

[TheMojoPin]

Think they're not desperate in Pittsburgh?
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3724303

Pretty gimmick-y, but hopefully it's the first step in something bigger happening. Baseball has been caching on in India over the years, and it's expected to be a massive talent pool once it's really established.

[El Mudo]

It might be interesting to see how this works out being as there are similarities between cricket and base ball...

And hell, theyve had 15 straight losing seasons....they might as well try something different

[PD]

Think they're not desperate in Pittsburgh?
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3724303

I heard about this on XM- MLB.
seemed pretty gimmicky, but who knows?

Pitt (the city) deserves to have a decent team again.

[TheMojoPin]

Australia is actually the country I expect to start seeing a lot more import players coming from relatively soon.

[K.C.]

Pitt (the city) deserves to have a decent team again.

Pittsburgh's problem is that it's a small city, and it has no real baseball territory.

The Pirates' market gets cut by the Phillies at about Harrisburg, to the east of the city. It has almost no fanbase to its west, because that's all Cleveland territory. To it's north, they run up against the Yankees, whose fanbase encroaches into Northern PA. And it probably splits the territory to its south pretty evenly with the Orioles.

So there's very little room for that franchise to grow. It would not surprise if its the next team to be relocated by MLB, which is a shame, considering the history of the franchise in that city.


This is a decent representation of the baseball territories, although, it's not 100% accurate. I think the Cardinals, for example stretch much further east (well into Tennessee) and south (well into Mississippi). And into Oklahoma, almost right up to Texas.

http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/835641802_ef422b12cf_b1.jpg

[TheMojoPin]

That map should be 90% Yanks/Red Sox/Cubs/Mets and the rest divied up amongst the teeming masses of nobdy teams.

[epo]

That map should be 90% Yanks/Red Sox/Cubs/Mets and the rest divied up amongst the teeming masses of nobdy teams.

I hate you and your loser team.

[TheMojoPin]

I hate you and your loser team.

Yes, but MANY more people love my loser team than your silly little band of batboys.

[skyscraper]

So there's very little room for that franchise to grow. It would not surprise if its the next team to be relocated by MLB, which is a shame, considering the history of the franchise in that city.




I seriously doubt that they will be relocating the pirates any time soon. their stadium is only about 5-6 years old. there is no way that MLB will give up on a team with that much history in the same city in the next 30 years at the soonest.
I understand what you're saying, but if they can snatch the hockey team from the jaws of relocation, they can do it for the baseball team.

[K.C.]

I seriously doubt that they will be relocating the pirates any time soon. their stadium is only about 5-6 years old. there is no way that MLB will give up on a team with that much history in the same city in the next 30 years at the soonest.
I understand what you're saying, but if they can snatch the hockey team from the jaws of relocation, they can do it for the baseball team.

PNC Park opened in 2001. It's the 9th year, this season.

And, MLB mindlessly tried to contract the Minnesota Twins, not all that long ago. They've shown they don't really care about the history of their franchises.



But the problem with Pittsburgh is that the economic situation won't get better in that city. It's going to continue to struggle.

The one thing keep the team there a while longer, though, is that there's nowhere really worth moving the team with a sizeable enough Metro area, other than maybe Portland or San Antonio.

[K.C.]

That map should be 90% Yanks/Red Sox/Cubs/Mets and the rest divied up amongst the teeming masses of nobody teams.

Which one of those teams won the World Series this year?

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/2559/081029victorino1az4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


Hmmmm.

[TheMojoPin]

Which one of those teams won the World Series this year?


http://media.philly.com/images/577*410/081029_victorino1.jpg


Hmmmm.

And like the other nobody teams that have won it, they'll remain nobody teams.

Look, each team has their fanbase, but there's really only 4 baseball teams that truly have national fanbases outside of the individual regions that teams calls home. That map was cute, but it doesn't represent much in the way of reality.