MLB Offseason Discussion...HOT STOVE, SSSSSSSSS!!!

[cougarjake13]

now i know what bdc would be like if he were a mets fan

no that was towelie

[KojiClutch]

no that was toweliehttp://i43.tinypic.com/o8wgur.jpg

[epo]

In a shocking move.......

Report: Brewers and Fielder working on two-year deal (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/38036579.html)

I was just watching the MLB Network and SI.com's Tom Verducci said he heard that the Brewers were trying to hammer out a two-year deal with Prince Fielder.

And, you know what? I believe it.

Yesterday, when I talked to Brewers GM Doug Melvin and Fielder's agent, Scott Boras, I was struck by the optimism and civil tone of the talks leading up to the exchange of arbitration figures. Fielder filed for $8 million and the Brewers filed for $6 million, and both sides said talks had been cordial and were progressing.

I asked Melvin if he had any notion of a multi-year deal with Fielder and he said he was "open" to doing one if the opportunity presented itself. And Boras gave me the idea something could be hammered out soon.

I began to get the idea that something was up when earlier in the day Fielder was added to the group of participating players for this weekend's "Winter Warm-Up" and "Brewers On Deck." I immediately wondered if Fielder was being brought in to announce a new deal. And what better news for Brewers fans than announcing a multi-year deal?

There were hard feelings last spring when the Brewers renewed Fielder's contract at $670,000. He spoke out about it at the time and the general assumption was that the sides would clash in arbitration this winter. Fielder also turned down an offer for a five-year, $60 million extension early last season.

It became obvious to me yesterday that the sides weren't clashing. Now comes word that they might get a two-year deal done.

If the sides do agree on a two-year deal, it would probably be for $18 million to $20 million. When you figure that Fielder filed for $8 million this year and would be expecting a raise next year with another big season, those numbers make sense.

Edit: Haudricourt has confirmed this through GM Doug Melvin. Link here. (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/38087984.html)

[cougarjake13]

i would love for fielder to come to the mutts

[El Mudo]

Jeff Kent retires (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jJUfTXD2uz6rK0q7xKRWfMeCZQLAD95SH1980)

One of the all time biggest douchebags ever to play the game

But will (and should most certainly very easily) get into the HOF.

Lifetime EqA: .293

Lifetime OPS+: 123

Looks kinda borderline from that perspective, but the guy was also a 2B, which makes those numbers really good by comparison (I can live with the .356 OBP cause he's got a .500 SLG, so it kinda evens out)

[epo]

i would love for fielder to come to the mutts

Fielder deal in place (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/38154214.html)

Someone familiar with the talks just told me that the Brewers and first baseman Prince Fielder have a deal in place for two years and $18 million, pending Fielder passing a physical.

Fielder is due to participate in the Brewers' winter activities Friday and Saturday, so he'll probably take a physical tomorrow. Teams have been instructed by MLB not to announce signings until players pass physicals.

The Brewers are having a 4 p.m. press conference today at Miller Park that already was arranged prior to the Fielder negotiations. General manager Doug Melvin, manager Ken Macha and scouting director Bruce Seid are scheduled to participate in that session, and owner Mark Attanasio might be on hand as well.

I have no idea what the Brewers will say at the press conference about the negotiations. Because of the pending physical, they probably won't officially announce it. I haven't been able to get in touch with agent Scott Boras to see what he has to say about it.

Sorry....Fielder is in Milwaukee for 2 more years.

[Kevin]

Fielder deal in place (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/38154214.html)



Sorry....Fielder is in Milwaukee for 2 more years.



Sigh.. Two more years to wait for him to be the Yankee DH.

[KojiClutch]

My Texas Rangers are World Series bound!!! We signed . . . . . . . . . . . . . Omar Visquel. :down:

[hammersavage]

Just saw Bob Klapisch on YES. He looks terrible. Big thick glasses and wirey hair. Is he sick?

[Knowledged_one]

My Texas Rangers are World Series bound!!! We signed . . . . . . . . . . . . . Omar Visquel. :down:

it must be cool to own your own team

[IMSlacker]

Troy Glaus had shoulder surgery (http://www.reuters.com/article/sportsNews/idUSTRE50M0EA20090123) yesterday and will be out for three months. May be time for a new board character.

[cougarjake13]

it must be cool to own your own team

you'll never let that die huh

[cougarjake13]

mets signed rob machowiak

yet another of to add to the mix

[Knowledged_one]

you'll never let that die huh

i try to but it just catches my eye i have gotten a bit better in letting it go

[jonyrotn]

mets signed rob machowiak

yet another of to add to the mixNot a bad sign..
He could back up Wright as well as playing the outfield corners..He used to catch in Pitsburg so he could probably don the tools of ignorance in a pinch..

[midwestjeff]

Troy Glaus had shoulder surgery (http://www.reuters.com/article/sportsNews/idUSTRE50M0EA20090123) yesterday and will be out for three months. May be time for a new board character.

No worries. They are extremely deep at third base. This will be a great chance to get the prospects more playing time. Also, Glaus sucks in April. Jesus, is it spring training yet? I'm so ready.

[cougarjake13]

i try to but it just catches my eye i have gotten a bit better in letting it go

that is true

[epo]

Source: Brewers, Counsell agree at 1 year, $1M (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9124298/Source:-Brewers,-Counsell-agree-at-1-year,-$1M)

Free-agent infielder Craig Counsell has reached preliminary agreement with the Brewers on a one-year, $1 million contract, according to a major-league source.

The deal is pending a physical.

Sorry NL Central, that obviously locks it up for the Brewers!

[Gvac]

Source: Brewers, Counsell agree at 1 year, $1M (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9124298/Source:-Brewers,-Counsell-agree-at-1-year,-$1M)



Sorry NL Central, that obviously locks it up for the Brewers!

Not so fast, my friend!

The Cincinnati Reds website has been down all day...I'm expecting something big!

[Puggle_kicker]

http://www.nypost.com/seven/01252009/news/regionalnews/torre_rips_a_fraud__boss_brass_bozos_151965.htm

Looks like Torre is firing back. And good for him, he's right, a bunch of dudes on that team are prima donnas, especially A-Choke.

[Knowledged_one]

Not so fast, my friend!

The Cincinnati Reds website has been down all day...I'm expecting something big!

its edinson volquezs junk

[underdog]

Torre gets most personal in his attacks against Alex Rodriguez, who he says was called "A-Fraud" by his teammates after he developed a "Single White Female"-like obsession with team captain Derek Jeter

hahaha

[Tenbatsuzen]

Writing a tell-all less than a year after what happened just shows how classless Torre is. Horrible move by him.

The bridges back to Yankee stadium were just slightly toastes. Now they've been nuked.

[Snoogans]

It didnt work very well when Chico Escuela did this about the Mets

[Puggle_kicker]

Writing a tell-all less than a year after what happened just shows how classless Torre is. Horrible move by him.

The bridges back to Yankee stadium were just slightly toastes. Now they've been nuked.

Torre is a HOF manager . . . . he doesnt need to go back to NY. And after they treated him I wouldnt want to. The way they treated him was a joke . . . . and then they give the managerial job to Girardi over Mattingly . . . . shame on you Yankees. And Im a Yankees fan.

[RingWraith]

Torre is a HOF manager . . . . he doesnt need to go back to NY. And after they treated him I wouldnt want to. The way they treated him was a joke . . . . and then they give the managerial job to Girardi over Mattingly . . . . shame on you Yankees. And Im a Yankees fan.

Personally I don't think Torre would've been a HOF manager if it wasn't for the Yankees who gave him an opportunity to be the manager of the Yankees in the first place.

[Tenbatsuzen]

Torre is a HOF manager . . . . he doesnt need to go back to NY. And after they treated him I wouldnt want to. The way they treated him was a joke . . . . and then they give the managerial job to Girardi over Mattingly . . . . shame on you Yankees. And Im a Yankees fan.

You do realize that if Mattingly got the job, it wouldn't have stopped his wife from freaking out, right?

[TheGameHHH]

Personally I don't think Torre would've been a HOF manager if it wasn't for the Yankees who gave him an opportunity to be the manager of the Yankees in the first place.

right and Phil Jackson wouldnt have won 9 NBA titles if it wasnt for Jordan, Kobe and Shaq. And Bellichek wouldnt have won without Brady. You can be given all the talent in the world, it doesnt neccessarily mean you are going to win. A good manager/head coach keeps egos in check and gets the most out of his players. Thats what Torre did in the Bronx and he did it again when he took the Dodgers to the NLCS last season. He's HOF because of that.

[RingWraith]

right and Phil Jackson wouldnt have won 9 NBA titles if it wasnt for Jordan, Kobe and Shaq. And Bellichek wouldnt have won without Brady. You can be given all the talent in the world, it doesnt neccessarily mean you are going to win. A good manager/head coach keeps egos in check and gets the most out of his players. Thats what Torre did in the Bronx and he did it again when he took the Dodgers to the NLCS last season. He's HOF because of that.

I'm just referring to the opportunity that was given to him be in a great situation and making the most of it. His tenure as Yankee manager and what he accomplish made him a HOF.

I just don't think he would've been in the HOF if he never came to the Yankees.

[cougarjake13]

right and Phil Jackson wouldnt have won 9 NBA titles if it wasnt for Jordan, Kobe and Shaq. And Bellichek wouldnt have won without Brady. You can be given all the talent in the world, it doesnt neccessarily mean you are going to win. A good manager/head coach keeps egos in check and gets the most out of his players. Thats what Torre did in the Bronx and he did it again when he took the Dodgers to the NLCS last season. He's HOF because of that.



true but before the yankees he was horrible with the mets, ok in atlanta and decent with the cards

[epo]

I'm just referring to the opportunity that was given to him be in a great situation and making the most of it. His tenure as Yankee manager and what he accomplish made him a HOF.

I just don't think he would've been in the HOF if he never came to the Yankees.

I really dislike the "unprovable argument". And christ, what does it matter? Torre was great with the Yankees...be happy the organization didn't screw him before they did.

[Puggle_kicker]

You do realize that if Mattingly got the job, it wouldn't have stopped his wife from freaking out, right?

OK, I'll admit it . . . I have absolutely no idea what you're referencing. Link?

[cougarjake13]

I really dislike the "unprovable argument". And christ, what does it matter? Torre was great with the Yankees...be happy the organization didn't screw him before they did.

its not that all unproveable


just look at his record pre yankees .. not very good

then he gets the yankee job, after george was told to stay away for a few years and they abandoned the lets get every big name out there and actually had decent prospects come up and play for the yanks, and got a few key free agents and trades along the way to help out
i think the yanks still win those titles if someone else was there, maybe even showalter

[epo]

true but before the yankees he was horrible with the mets, ok in atlanta and decent with the cards

Lets look at the teams:

The Mets were his first job. He took over about the time that the contract problems "The Midnight Massacre" with Kingman and Seaver happened, and management gutted the team.

The Braves. He took a Braves team to the playoffs in 1982, then also finished 2nd & 3rd in his 3 years.

The Cardinals. Torre was with the Cardinals for a few years and got canned when Anheuser-Busch got ready to sell the team....and rebuilt the organization.

I really know its a cliche, but a manager is only as good as the talent...and then you can judge how good they are. While I don't think that Joe Torre is the "best manager ever" or anything like that....you honestly can't say he's not very good at his job without lying to yourself.

[epo]

I just don't think he would've been in the HOF if he never came to the Yankees.

How is that statement logically provable?

its not that all unproveable

just look at his record pre yankees .. not very good

then he gets the yankee job, after george was told to stay away for a few years and they abandoned the lets get every big name out there and actually had decent prospects come up and play for the yanks, and got a few key free agents and trades along the way to help out

i think the yanks still win those titles if someone else was there, maybe even showalter

You guys THINK this about Joe Torre & the Yankees, but its an unprovable premise.

I think that if Ben Sheets didn't get hurt at the end of this season, the Milwaukee Brewers would have won the World Series....but I can't prove that.

And Torre didn't "accidently" get to be the 7th on the all-time wins list by accident.

[Kevin]

Joe Torre is a fraud.

Yankees made his career. He had great teams, and didn't do shit.. All he did was trot out the same pitchers and players every day, and sleep on the the bench

The Yankees gave him a fair offer. He wasn't getting the job done.
He signed for less with the Dodgers than the Yanks offered.

He was an arm killer who ruined many pitchers because he didn't give a shit..

They had to make the Joba Rules because he would have ruined Joba too.

He was campaigning for the Dodger Job on Letterman before Little was fired.

Fuck him. If it wasn't for Manny being ridiculous, he would have been in next to last place.

[cougarjake13]

How is that statement logically provable?



You guys THINK this about Joe Torre & the Yankees, but its an unprovable premise.

I think that if Ben Sheets didn't get hurt at the end of this season, the Milwaukee Brewers would have won the World Series....but I can't prove that.

And Torre didn't "accidently" get to be the 7th on the all-time wins list by accident.



wins list means nothing

if you stick around long enough you'll win 70-80 games most years and rack up wins
doesnt mean much though


we could also use the bellichek theory... he sucked ass in cleveland with shitty players
then he gets the patsies job and all the players they had there and he's great now




so you could basically say that no coach ever really sucks, its his team, players and what management wants to spend that'll determine how good or bad he is




im not saying he isnt a good manager, just that pre yanks no one was saying anything about him being a hall of famer, he happened to be in the right place at the right time

[Puggle_kicker]

Joe Torre is a fraud.

Yankees made his career. He had great teams, and didn't do shit..

The Yankees gave him a fair offer. He wasn't getting the job done.
He signed for less with the Dodgers than the Yanks offered.

He was an arm killer who ruined many pitchers because he didn't give a shit..

They had to make the Joba Rules because he would have ruined Joba too.

He was campaigning for the Dodger Job on Letterman before Little was fired.

Fuck him. If it wasn't for Manny being ridiculous, he would have been in next to last place.
He did fine with pitchers . . . he just got some shitty pitchers.

You can't blame him for all the chokers they brought in. All the Javier Vazquez's and Jeff Weavers. The chemistry that he created with his lassiez-faire style produced the great teams of the late 90's and early 00's. The thing is they stopped getting him the ingredients he needed to win.

They started bringing in Jason Giambi's instead of Tino Martinez's. They decided to go for A-Fag instead of a guy like Brosius. When Torre had the right ingredients he strived, but when they started forcing guys on him in a desperate attempt to win right now, thats when he started to falter . . . such as it was with 13 (or something like that) straight post season appearances.

[Kevin]

How is that statement logically provable?

It is, because he was a mediocre manager before the Yankees



You guys THINK this about Joe Torre & the Yankees, but its an unprovable premise.

I think that if Ben Sheets didn't get hurt at the end of this season, the Milwaukee Brewers would have won the World Series....but I can't prove that.

And Torre didn't "accidently" get to be the 7th on the all-time wins list by accident.

He won a big chunk of those games with the Yankees.



He Def is not a HOF manager without the Yankees.

[Kevin]

He did fine with pitchers . . . he just got some shitty pitchers.



Go ask Procter, Quantril and others how well he did with pitchers.

[epo]

He Def is not a HOF manager without the Yankees.

Nice "addition" to quoting me.

He won a big chunk of those games with the Yankees.

The mere fact that you go there proves how stupid you know your own argument is.

[epo]

He Def is not a HOF manager without the Yankees.

A team managed by Joe Torre has been in the playoffs for 13 straight years. Even the best of franchises run into injuries, slides and various problems...yet Joe got them to the playoffs.

I could very well argue that Torre got the Yankees to the playoffs despite their owner/general manager for 12 straight years.

[Knowledged_one]

He Def is not a HOF manager without the Yankees.

yeah and lebron james would be a hof wr

its sad to see how fast yankee fans forget what he did for that franchise

[TheGameHHH]

Joe Torre is a fraud.

Yankees made his career. He had great teams, and didn't do shit.. All he did was trot out the same pitchers and players every day, and sleep on the the bench

The Yankees gave him a fair offer. He wasn't getting the job done.
He signed for less with the Dodgers than the Yanks offered.

He was an arm killer who ruined many pitchers because he didn't give a shit..

They had to make the Joba Rules because he would have ruined Joba too.

He was campaigning for the Dodger Job on Letterman before Little was fired.

Fuck him. If it wasn't for Manny being ridiculous, he would have been in next to last place.

sometimes you really disappoint me.......this is one of those times.

[Knowledged_one]

sometimes you really disappoint me.......this is one of those times.

x 2

[epo]

wins list means nothing

if you stick around long enough you'll win 70-80 games most years and rack up wins
doesnt mean much though

Which is an asinine statement. Joe Torre would not have managed for 27 years in MLB if he was "racking up" 70-80 wins per year.

[TheGameHHH]

Which is an asinine statement. Joe Torre would not have managed for 27 years in MLB if he was "racking up" 70-80 wins per year.

true, and not just Joe Torre....NOBODY manages in the majors for 27 years by winning 70-80 games a year.

[Kevin]

sometimes you really disappoint me.......this is one of those times.

Maybe i was a little harsh. But he really lost a lot of respect with me when he campaigned for the Dodger job, before they even fired their manager.

He should have said, look, let him go first, then we will talk.

Not go on fuck Letterman and openly talk about it.

[Knowledged_one]

Which is an asinine statement. Joe Torre would not have managed for 27 years in MLB if he was "racking up" 70-80 wins per year.

my thoughts exactly

[Jujubees2]

we could also use the bellichek theory... he sucked ass in cleveland with shitty players
then he gets the patsies job and all the players they had there and he's great now



Difference is that Belichick had a saw in which players the Patriots brought in so he was not only responsible for coaching but in obtaining the players. Joe Torre just played the players George bought for him.

[Puggle_kicker]

Go ask Procter, Quantril and others how well he did with pitchers.

Two mediocre relievers at best. Come on now. Relievers these days are pussies.

[Puggle_kicker]

Difference is that Belichick had a saw in which players the Patriots brought in so he was not only responsible for coaching but in obtaining the players. Joe Torre just played the players George bought for him.

Bingo. And when George bought him the right players he won Championships. When George forced overpriced and elderly players on him, he faltered . . . . makes you think, eh?

[Kevin]

Not with the Yanks

978-1081..

at 15 years thats 65.2-72.07 wins losses per season.

Come on, everyone stop it.


With the Yanks 1173-767
97.75-63.92

I'm sorry. He was a shitty manager before

NOT a HOF without the Yankees.

END OF DISCUSSION.

[Puggle_kicker]

Not with the Yanks

978-1081..

at 15 years thats 65.2-72.07 wins losses per season.

Come on, everyone stop it.


With the Yanks 1173-767
97.75-63.92

I'm sorry. He was a shitty manager before

NOT a HOF without the Yankees.

END OF DISCUSSION.

Thats just silly. And Dale Earnhardt wouldnt have won any races without a car .. .. what's your point?

[Kevin]

Thats just silly. And Dale Earnhardt wouldnt have won any races without a car .. .. what's your point?

He was an under 500 manager until he got here. How much simpler can it get?

[Kevin]

My point is...

Baseball managers have much less an impact on their teams, than other sports.... Unless you are just an dumb manager, like Epo's boy last year.

Joe Torre was a product of his teams, not the teams being a product of Joe Torre..

He thinks much too highly of himself.

[epo]

The Yankees gave him a fair offer. He wasn't getting the job done.
He signed for less with the Dodgers than the Yanks offered.

That fair offer? After taking your franchise to 12 straight playoff appearances, you ask your manager to go from $7.5 million/year to $5 million/year. That is a slap in the face my friend.

Maybe i was a little harsh. But he really lost a lot of respect with me when he campaigned for the Dodger job, before they even fired their manager.


And the Yankees openly flaunted their lust for Joe Giardi for nearly a year in front of the world. At best if Torre is an ass...the Yankee organization is a whore.

[epo]

Thats just silly. And Dale Earnhardt wouldnt have won any races without a car .. .. what's your point?

He was an under 500 manager until he got here. How much simpler can it get?

Could you be any more dismissive in the face of logic?

Face it, the Yankees would be better off with Torre as manager.

[Kevin]

That fair offer? After taking your franchise to 12 straight playoff appearances, you ask your manager to go from $7.5 million/year to $5 million/year. That is a slap in the face my friend.



And the Yankees openly flaunted their lust for Joe Giardi for nearly a year in front of the world. At best if Torre is an ass...the Yankee organization is a whore.

My point is, Torre gets no heat for what he did. Yanks may have handled it wrong, but so did Torre.

[Kevin]

Could you be any more dismissive in the face of logic?

Face it, the Yankees would be better off with Torre as manager.

No... Torre would not have done shit with that pitching staff.

[epo]

No... Torre would not have done shit with that pitching staff.

I can't wait to listen to Yankees fans cry when Don Mattingly is the next Dodgers manager....which will be a direct result of the Yanks shitting on Torre.

Donny Dodger Baseball!

[Kevin]

I can't wait to listen to Yankees fans cry when Don Mattingly is the next Dodgers manager....which will be a direct result of the Yanks shitting on Torre.

Donny Dodger Baseball!

Nothing but Love for Mattingly. He is nothing but class.

In fact, i blasted BDC for doing just that.

Torre is a Fraud.

[Puggle_kicker]

I can't wait to listen to Yankees fans cry when Don Mattingly is the next Dodgers manager....which will be a direct result of the Yanks shitting on Torre.

Donny Dodger Baseball!

I as a Yankees fan, will be crying if that happens. And is a result of how shitty the organization treated those two guys.

[Puggle_kicker]

Nothing but Love for Mattingly. He is nothing but class.

Well, Im glad we can agree on at least that.

[TheGameHHH]

Well, Im glad we can agree on at least that.

wait until Donnie goes on Letterman next year and starts campaigning for the Dodger job before Torre leaves. then Kevin will call him a fraud.

[Tenbatsuzen]

That fair offer? After taking your franchise to 12 straight playoff appearances, you ask your manager to go from $7.5 million/year to $5 million/year. That is a slap in the face my friend.




As I remember, the deal was to pay him the same amount of money if he made the playoffs, with million dollar bonuses for winning the 1st and 2nd rounds.

I remember complaining about this when it happened. The logistic of the contract was, he makes the playoffs, he gets the same money he got last year.

As stated before, the Yankee management did not have a lot of faith with Torre's handling of pitching talent. See: The Joba Rules.

[Tenbatsuzen]

OK, I'll admit it . . . I have absolutely no idea what you're referencing. Link?

I'm too lazy to find it, but Mattingly's wife (ex-wife?) is mentally unstable. He took a leave of absence from the Dodgers because his wife lost her shit and had to "go away" for a little while. He was gone from March until the All-Star Break.

I have no doubt the Yankees had an idea of the wife's situation and how they couldn't hire Mattingly given the situation.

[Knowledged_one]

Im sorry but you all talk about the joba rules but didnt joba get hurt under girardi when they forced him into a starters role?

[Puggle_kicker]

I'm too lazy to find it, but Mattingly's wife (ex-wife?) is mentally unstable. He took a leave of absence from the Dodgers because his wife lost her shit and had to "go away" for a little while. He was gone from March until the All-Star Break.

I have no doubt the Yankees had an idea of the wife's situation and how they couldn't hire Mattingly given the situation.

Women, the downfall of men.

[Tenbatsuzen]

Im sorry but you all talk about the joba rules but didnt joba get hurt under girardi when they forced him into a starters role?

Yes, but that's not because of overuse. Torre had no idea how to manage his bullpen.

[Knowledged_one]

Yes, but that's not because of overuse. Torre had no idea how to manage his bullpen.

i would say as the years went on the yankees paid less attention to the bullpen then other positions because they had rivera

[Puggle_kicker]

Yes, but that's not because of overuse. Torre had no idea how to manage his bullpen.

Then how do explain Rivera and his extreme success and solid health? And there were plenty of times where Joe would go to Rivera for more than just three outs.

[sailor]

... but its an unprovable premise.

if we're getting rid of unprovable premises, why discuss baseball at all? now people can't express their beliefs? this is still america!!

[brettmojo]

http://www.nypost.com/seven/01252009/news/regionalnews/torre_rips_a_fraud__boss_brass_bozos_151965.htm

Looks like Torre is firing back. And good for him, he's right, a bunch of dudes on that team are prima donnas, especially A-Choke.

About time.

hahaha

x2.

Torre is a HOF manager . . . . he doesnt need to go back to NY. And after they treated him I wouldnt want to. The way they treated him was a joke . . . . and then they give the managerial job to Girardi over Mattingly . . . . shame on you Yankees. And Im a Yankees fan.

I agree with the first part of that but Girardi was manager of the year when he managed the Marlins. THE MARLINS. I can't really fault them for going with him. I also can't blame Mattingly for being slighted. So it really was a just a no win situation. If they went with him over Girardi and it was a season similair to this one with no playoffs everyone would have said Girardi was the more experienced choice they should have went with and Mattingly only got the job because he was Mattingly.

right and Phil Jackson wouldnt have won 9 NBA titles if it wasnt for Jordan, Kobe and Shaq. And Bellichek wouldnt have won without Brady. You can be given all the talent in the world, it doesnt neccessarily mean you are going to win. A good manager/head coach keeps egos in check and gets the most out of his players. Thats what Torre did in the Bronx and he did it again when he took the Dodgers to the NLCS last season. He's HOF because of that.

Exactly.

yeah and lebron james would be a hof wr

its sad to see how fast yankee fans forget what he did for that franchise

I agree. Those so quick to shit on him are the same ass hats who expect world titles every year. It's because of him they even think that in the first place.

Maybe i was a little harsh. But he really lost a lot of respect with me when he campaigned for the Dodger job, before they even fired their manager.

He should have said, look, let him go first, then we will talk.

Not go on fuck Letterman and openly talk about it.

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Where did he talk about it exactly?

Could you be any more dismissive in the face of logic?

Face it, the Yankees would be better off with Torre as manager.

Agreed.

As I remember, the deal was to pay him the same amount of money if he made the playoffs, with million dollar bonuses for winning the 1st and 2nd rounds.

I remember complaining about this when it happened. The logistic of the contract was, he makes the playoffs, he gets the same money he got last year.

As stated before, the Yankee management did not have a lot of faith with Torre's handling of pitching talent. See: The Joba Rules.

He never really was given all that much pitching talent to handle. Not in the bullpen. Not since Stanton and Nelson left. And the starting pitcher disasters are well known.

[PD]

internet report (heard on xm175)
that andy petite reached an agreement on a deal.

not guaranteed 16M, but he can reach 16M if he hits all his incentives.

[TheGameHHH]

internet report (heard on xm175)
that andy petite reached an agreement on a deal.

not guaranteed 16M, but he can reach 16M if he hits all his incentives.

what team? Yanks?

[hammersavage]

Team would help

[hammersavage]

According to SI.com's Jon Heyman, Andy Pettitte and the Yankees are in serious talks and there's a "lot of optimism" for a one-year deal. It would be for less than $10MM guaranteed.

Ha, should have took the money when it was there idiot.

[foodcourtdruide]

I would have spent the money elsewhere if I was the Yankees, but I think this means:

1. They are concerned about Chamberlain or Wang.

or

2. They are not confident in Hughes.

Could it also mean Chamberlain may be headed back to the bullpen?

[TheGameHHH]

I would have spent the money elsewhere if I was the Yankees, but I think this means:

1. They are concerned about Chamberlain or Wang.

or

2. They are not confident in Hughes.

Could it also mean Chamberlain may be headed back to the bullpen?

or it could also mean Joba can't really throw more then 150-160 innings this year and Hughes might be best served spending most of his time in the minors. thus they need somebody to eat innings.....now enter Pettitte.

[foodcourtdruide]

or it could also mean Joba can't really throw more then 150-160 innings this year and Hughes might be best served spending most of his time in the minors. thus they need somebody to eat innings.....now enter Pettitte.

As a Yankees fan, wouldn't you rather have Joba in the bullpen if that was the case?

[TheGameHHH]

As a Yankees fan, wouldn't you rather have Joba in the bullpen if that was the case?

nope

[foodcourtdruide]

nope

Why's that? I'd be a little scared because I feel as a starter he could have a pretty adverse effect on a bullpen. I just think he's so lights out in the bullpen, and I guess this past season the Mets have made me drool at the mouth thinking of his past relief appearances.

[HBox]

Why's that? I'd be a little scared because I feel as a starter he could have a pretty adverse effect on a bullpen. I just think he's so lights out in the bullpen, and I guess this past season the Mets have made me drool at the mouth thinking of his past relief appearances.

150-200 innings > 80 innings.

[foodcourtdruide]

150-200 innings > 80 innings.

I really don't think it's that simple. That's like saying you should bat Albert Pujols first to maximize his # of at bats. Well, sorta like that.

[midwestjeff]

I really don't think it's that simple. That's like saying you should bat Albert Pujols first to maximize his # of at bats. Well, sorta like that.

Dude, don't give LaRussa any ideas please.

That fucking unconventional bastard just might do it.

[Kevin]

Bah, id rather have Sheets.

[Kevin]

I am listening to Joe and Evan on WFAN. Someone just said something interesting. Do you think now that Torre did this, they might go out and sign Manny just to spite him? I doubt it, but it was an interesting thought.

[Snoogans]

I am listening to Joe and Evan on WFAN. Someone just said something interesting. Do you think now that Torre did this, they might go out and sign Manny just to spite him? I doubt it, but it was an interesting thought.

If you were actually listenin to Joe and Evan when they had Sweeney on earlier, you would know Torre didnt do this. Didnt even write the book. Some sports writer wrote it and including in things he had heard said. But Torre, apparently, didn't give him any of that shit for the book

[Kevin]

If you were actually listenin to Joe and Evan when they had Sweeney on earlier, you would know Torre didnt do this. Didnt even write the book. Some sports writer wrote it and including in things he had heard said. But Torre, apparently, didn't give him any of that shit for the book



I just put it on about a half hour ago. Besides, its still Torre. If all of that what BS, Torre could of said, i do not want this in the book. If my name is on the book, i'm gunna make damn sure everything that is there, i am on board with.

[Snoogans]

I just pit it on about a half hour ago. Besides, its still Torre. If all of that what BS, Torre could of said, i do not want this in the book. If my name is on the book, i'm gunna make damn sure everything that is there, i am on board with.

Yea apparently his name ISNT on the book. According to Sweeney, Torre had nothing to do with writing the book. The things in there he actually said but they were said in locker rooms and various other places and just put in the book by this writer. Thats the way Sweeney made it sound anyway. In fact the writer even tried to contact the post to tell them they were wrong, it wasnt Torre. But the post doesnt care

[El Mudo]

And now for the "Let's Point and Laugh at Mudo's Beloved Nats" moment of the day...



Nats might sign Tom Glavine (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/baseball-insider/2009/01/if_braves_pass_glavine_could_p.html)


Now if they would actually do something SMART and sign Adam Dunn (which I am PRAYING they do, and they should have done weeks ago), i'll be impressed.

Don't think theyre going to get much out of Glavine at this point

[Kevin]

Yea apparently his name ISNT on the book. According to Sweeney, Torre had nothing to do with writing the book. The things in there he actually said but they were said in locker rooms and various other places and just put in the book by this writer. Thats the way Sweeney made it sound anyway. In fact the writer even tried to contact the post to tell them they were wrong, it wasnt Torre. But the post doesnt care



Even if he did not write it. His name and pic is still there. He was quoted in it. He is getting a % from it, and will be plugging it all around. He will be on letterman and others. He could have said, i am not going to be on board unless this this and this is taken out.

[Snoogans]

And now for the "Let's Point and Laugh at Mudo's Beloved Nats" moment of the day...



Nats might sign Tom Glavine (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/baseball-insider/2009/01/if_braves_pass_glavine_could_p.html)


Now if they would actually do something SMART and sign Adam Dunn (which I am PRAYING they do, and they should have done weeks ago), i'll be impressed.

Don't think theyre going to get much out of Glavine at this point

best pitcher the Mets ever had

[Kevin]

best pitcher the Mets ever had



I hope he shuts out the Mets on the last day of the season, to cost them the playoffs.

[PD]

Team would help

sorry, i thought that was self evident. (Yankees)
(and then i went out for lunch

[Snoogans]

Dont worry Yankee fans. You will not have Andy Pettite on the team this coming season:

The New York Yankees and Andy Pettitte are close on a deal that will bring the veteran left-hander back for a year, Major League Baseball sources told Buster Olney on Monday.

The deal, sources told Olney, could be done as soon as Monday afternoon. It would pay Pettitte nearly $6 million, with incentives that could make it worth as much as $12 million.




so basically everything there is nonsense

[TheMojoPin]

I think I mentioned how ESPN was making the horrible decision of adding Steve Phillips to the Sunday Night Baseball crew and keeping Joe Morgan when the scuttlebutt was the Joe was on his way out. HireJimEssian.com probably had the best take on this debacle: (http://hirejimessian.com/2009/01/22/turns-out-it-is-possible-to-make-sunday-night-baseball-worse/)

Just when you thought ESPN’s Sunday Night Baseball couldn’t get any worse, it does. ESPN has announced that Jon Miller and Joe Morgan will be joined by FORMER GENERAL MANAGER OF THE NEW YORK METS, Steve Phillips (thanks to Zach for the link). It has long baffled me that ESPN plays up Phillips’ former job. He got fired for an astonishing level of ineptitude. Soooooo, why keep bringing it up? “Hey, Steve, remember that job you got fired from? Wasn’t that around the same time that you were diagnosed with cancer, and you found out your wife was banging your brother? … What?”

I don’t know about you, but I ordinarily don’t even watch Sunday Night Baseball anymore unless the Cubs are playing. Miller’s over-pronunciation of Latin names, unusual pauses, and inexplicable hyper-excitability drive me nuts. Morgan’s total lack of preparation and smug, shameless self-promotion are even worse. If you’re into train wrecks, the addition of Phillips is nothing short of amazing. Let’s run down the colossal failures of Phillips: Mo Vaughn, Roberto Alomar, Pedro Astacio, Mike Bordick, Bobby Bonilla, Rickey Henderson, Kenny Rogers, Jeromy Burnitz, and Kazuo Matsui. Those guys would have all been great additions in 1996, 1999, 1993, never, 1990, 1980, 1995, 1997, and never. Unfortunately for Phillips, he added them in 2002, 2002, 2002, 2000, 1992, 1999, 1999, 2002, and 2004. So, he only missed having a decent team by about 48 years or so.

[epo]

I just put it on about a half hour ago. Besides, its still Torre. If all of that what BS, Torre could of said, i do not want this in the book. If my name is on the book, i'm gunna make damn sure everything that is there, i am on board with.

From MLB.com: (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090126&content_id=3772994&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb)

In a Q&A published Sunday on SI.com, Verducci noted that the book is a third-person narrative, not a first-person tell-all.

"This is the result of hundreds of interviews with not only Torre but players, front-office executives, executives of other teams, players on other teams," Verducci told SI.com. "It's a 477-page book about 12 years of baseball history. Again, it's not a Joe Torre first-person book, so there's a lot of reporting that's presented in there in addition to Joe's insights.

"Smart people will judge the book upon actually reading it and not reading preliminary reports prior to its publication. Once you understand the context of the book you understand the information. It's not a tell-all book. Anybody who reads it will understand that."

Maybe you should try the "smart people" approach and read the book before judging it?

[Snoogans]

If you’re into train wrecks, the addition of Phillips is nothing short of amazing. Let’s run down the colossal failures of Phillips: Mo Vaughn, Roberto Alomar, Pedro Astacio, Mike Bordick, Bobby Bonilla, Rickey Henderson, Kenny Rogers, Jeromy Burnitz, and Kazuo Matsui. Those guys would have all been great additions in 1996, 1999, 1993, never, 1990, 1980, 1995, 1997, and never. Unfortunately for Phillips, he added them in 2002, 2002, 2002, 2000, 1992, 1999, 1999, 2002, and 2004. So, he only missed having a decent team by about 48 years or so.

Best exec in Mets History

[brettmojo]

Dont worry Yankee fans. You will not have Andy Pettite on the team this coming season:

The New York Yankees and Andy Pettitte are close on a deal that will bring the veteran left-hander back for a year, Major League Baseball sources told Buster Olney on Monday.

The deal, sources told Olney, could be done as soon as Monday afternoon. It would pay Pettitte nearly $6 million, with incentives that could make it worth as much as $12 million.




so basically everything there is nonsense
It's official (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3861386)...

NEW YORK -- Andy Pettitte (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=3171) and the New York Yankees (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=nyy) agreed Monday to a $5.5 million, one-year contract that brings the left-hander back to New York.

Pettitte can make an additional $6.5 million on performance bonuses and bonuses based on time on the active roster.

"There was never another team brought up," Pettitte said during a conference call. "I wanted to come back to the Yankees."

He joins a starting rotation that already includes CC Sabathia (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=4553), A.J. Burnett (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=4153), Chien-Ming Wang (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=6209) and Joba Chamberlain (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=28847).

The deal raised the Yankees' projected opening-day payroll to $196.8 million for 17 players with agreements.

Late last year, New York had offered a deal that would have guaranteed Pettitte $10 million, down from the $16 million he earned last year. New York withdrew that offer after it agreed to a $180 million, eight-year deal with Mark Teixeira (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=4937).

"If in fact Andy does in 2009 what he's done before, he'll actually make more money," said Pettitte's agent, Randy Hendricks.

[IMSlacker]

They should have signed Sheets. All they would have to give up is like a 5th round pick at this point.

[hammersavage]

Maybe they were doing the Mets a favor.

[epo]

They should have signed Sheets. All they would have to give up is like a 5th round pick at this point.

Please don't remind me. I don't think a cap is the key to competitve balance in baseball, but rather the compensation system for losing free agents.

[Kevin]

John Hayman just blasted Torre on the fan. Basicaly called him a fraud for doing this book.

[PD]

John Hayman just blasted Torre on the fan. Basicaly called him a fraud for doing this book.

he meant for doing it with Verducci and not with Heyman.

[El Mudo]

Best exec in Mets History



Victor Zambrano for Scott Kazmir FTW

[epo]

John Hayman just blasted Torre on the fan. Basicaly called him a fraud for doing this book.

If Joe Torre were a woman, he'd get a restraining order against you.

Face it Kevin, Joe Torre broke up with you! Move on with your life.

[epo]

Jon Heyman is reporting that the Brewers are interested in Oliver Perez. Don't believe it for a second. The Brewers don't have the money nor are willing to give up the compensatory pick.

I've said it before, but Heyman is a fucking hack.

[PD]

Jon Heyman is reporting that the Brewers are interested in Oliver Perez. Don't believe it for a second. The Brewers don't have the money nor are willing to give up the compensatory pick.

I've said it before, but Heyman is a fucking hack.

its been refuted already.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/38450049.html
Don't believe Perez rumor
By Tom Haudricourt of the Journal Sentinel
Jan. 27, 2009 8:51 a.m.

I just saw this report that Jon Heyman said on the MLB Network that the Brewers might have interest in free agent lefty Oliver Perez.

Don't count on it.

When I ran Perez's name by Brewers general manager Doug Melvin recently, he showed virtually no interest for two reasons:

1. Melvin doesn't think he's worth the money he is seeking (Perez led the NL in walks last year and can be very erratic).

2. Melvin doesn't want to forfeit the first-round draft pick to sign a Class A free agent.

So, I think this is mostly a smokescreen provided by Perez's agent, Scott Boras. The Brewers, of course, have "interest" in any pitcher that might help them. But there are varying degrees of interest, from "very slight" to "highly interested."

I fully expect Perez to re-sign with the Mets at some point. Boras is probably trying to create a market that isn't there for his client, which is an agent's job.

Heyman isn't bad - he's running into the same thing that Buster Olney/Peter Gammons ran into- going to "sources" who have their own agenda.

[spadanko]

Heyman is represented by Boras. He has to be

[Kevin]

If Joe Torre were a woman, he'd get a restraining order against you.

Face it Kevin, Joe Torre broke up with you! Move on with your life.



We broke up with his broken down old ass.

[epo]

We broke up with his broken down old ass.

You thought you had the upper hand in the relationship and knew that Joe Torre would break up you. The then got a new team and all you can do is whine about his new relationship.

Face it dude, the Yankees got dumped on purpose and now regret it.

[Snoogans]

We broke up with his broken down old ass.

You didn't dump Torre. You offered him a deal and he said no and walked away.


Man I love the revisionist history though

[Kevin]

You didn't dump Torre. You offered him a deal and he said no and walked away.


Man I love the revisionist history though



We offered him a deal we knew he would not take. That offer was bullshit.

[epo]

We offered him a deal we knew he would not take. That offer was bullshit.

I bet everytime a Yankees fan hears "Goodnight Elizabeth" by the Counting Crows they think of Joe Torre and check the weather report in LA.

[PD]

I bet everytime a Yankees fan hears "Goodnight Elizabeth" by the Counting Crows they think of Joe Torre and check the weather report in LA.

:lol:

[spadanko]

According to ESPN Radio's Bruce Levine, the Cubs are close to acquiring pitcher Aaron Heilman from the Mariners. The Ms want shortstop Ronny Cedeno and pitching in return. Heilman was dealt to Seattle in the J.J. Putz trade earlier this winter. Earlier this month, Ken Rosenthal mentioned that the Mariners were likely willing to trade Heilman, "who they did not consider a key component of the Putz trade."

Heilman, 30, is set to earn $1.625MM in '09. He'll be eligible for free agency after the 2010 season.

Levine also mentioned that three teams are interested in out-of-options Cubs hurler Rich Hill

[foodcourtdruide]

According to ESPN Radio's Bruce Levine, the Cubs are close to acquiring pitcher Aaron Heilman from the Mariners. The Ms want shortstop Ronny Cedeno and pitching in return. Heilman was dealt to Seattle in the J.J. Putz trade earlier this winter. Earlier this month, Ken Rosenthal mentioned that the Mariners were likely willing to trade Heilman, "who they did not consider a key component of the Putz trade."

Heilman, 30, is set to earn $1.625MM in '09. He'll be eligible for free agency after the 2010 season.

Levine also mentioned that three teams are interested in out-of-options Cubs hurler Rich Hill

Man, I didn't realize Heilman 30. So happy the Mets traded him.

[Puggle_kicker]

Bah, id rather have Sheets.

Id much rather have Sheets than Pettitte.

[PD]

According to ESPN Radio's Bruce Levine, the Cubs are close to acquiring pitcher Aaron Heilman from the Mariners. The Ms want shortstop Ronny Cedeno and pitching in return. Heilman was dealt to Seattle in the J.J. Putz trade earlier this winter. Earlier this month, Ken Rosenthal mentioned that the Mariners were likely willing to trade Heilman, "who they did not consider a key component of the Putz trade."

Heilman, 30, is set to earn $1.625MM in '09. He'll be eligible for free agency after the 2010 season.

Levine also mentioned that three teams are interested in out-of-options Cubs hurler Rich Hill

WFAN reported it as done.

Heilman in Wrigley vs Delgado. should be interesting.

[Snoogans]

I hope Heilman wins 20 games

[PD]

I hope Heilman wins 20 games

you can hope, but you are more likely to get Manny back to Red sox.

[Kevin]

I bet everytime a Yankees fan hears "Goodnight Elizabeth" by the Counting Crows they think of Joe Torre and check the weather report in LA.



Don't you have a cow to slaughter or something?

[Snoogans]

Don't you have a cow to slaughter or something?

What about CC Sabathia?

[Kevin]

What about CC Sabathia?



Why do you think he left Mil? He was watching that creep Epo looking at him from his awful 3B seats.

[hammersavage]

This is kinda interesting:

In exchange for roughly $100 million, you could buy up most of the best remaining free-agents and field the following team, right now, three weeks before pitchers and catchers:

1B: Adam Dunn
2B: Orlando Hudson
SS: Orlando Cabrera
3B: Joe Crede
OF: Manny Ramirez
OF: Garrett Anderson
OF: Bobby Abreu
C: Jason Varitek

SP: Ben Sheets
SP: Oliver Perez
SP: Braden Looper
SP: Randy Wolf
SP: Pedro Martinez

RP: Juan Cruz

Not bad.

[Freitag]

Paul Heyman is reporting THE NIGHT KIMONA DANCED ATOP THE ECW ARENA

[Puggle_kicker]

This is kinda interesting:



Not bad.

that may be the worst defensive outfield ever.

[cougarjake13]

According to ESPN Radio's Bruce Levine, the Cubs are close to acquiring pitcher Aaron Heilman from the Mariners. The Ms want shortstop Ronny Cedeno and pitching in return. Heilman was dealt to Seattle in the J.J. Putz trade earlier this winter. Earlier this month, Ken Rosenthal mentioned that the Mariners were likely willing to trade Heilman, "who they did not consider a key component of the Putz trade."

Heilman, 30, is set to earn $1.625MM in '09. He'll be eligible for free agency after the 2010 season.

Levine also mentioned that three teams are interested in out-of-options Cubs hurler Rich Hill

good for him


are the cubs gonna let him start ??

[cougarjake13]

I hope Heilman wins 20 games

maybe over the next 2 1/2 yrs he will

[K.C.]

Paul Heyman is reporting THE NIGHT KIMONA DANCED ATOP THE ECW ARENA

I used to love that teaser.

That was the stupidest thing ever too. It was just a stupid little gyration with no nudity, I believe.

[epo]

Sheets wants guaranteed money (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090128&content_id=3779074&vkey=news_mil&fext=.jsp&c_id=mil&partnerId=rss_mil)

The Brewers' official position remains that they have not closed the door on Sheets and his agent, Casey Close. But the team is unwilling to give the 30-year-old right-hander the multi-year deal he is seeking, and might not even offer enough guaranteed money in a one-year deal to pique Sheets' interest.

Proof of Melvin's open-door policy came just after the new year, when he reached out to Close. The call was prompted by two Boston Red Sox signings. First they signed Brad Penny to a one-year deal that pays a $5 million base salary with incentives that could add another $3 million. Then they finalized a one-year contract with John Smoltz that guarantees $5.5 million and could pay as much as $10 million with incentives.

Melvin wanted to know whether Sheets and Close were open to a similar offer, and it appears they were not. According to Melvin, the men have not spoken since. Close has not responded to multiple inquiries from MLB.com this winter.

Sheets' representatives reportedly tried to allay clubs' concerns about his injury history by releasing new medical information last week. If that's the case, they did not send that information to the Brewers.

That might explain why Big Ben doesn't have a jersey for 2009 yet.

[Knowledged_one]

I used to love that teaser.

That was the stupidest thing ever too. It was just a stupid little gyration with no nudity, I believe.

i was their that night

[brettmojo]

Remind me never to purger myself against the US government.

Apparently they take it really personally (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3867536).

[TheMojoPin]

good for him


are the cubs gonna let him start ??

I assume he's in the running. They have 4-5 guys now including him competing for the 5th starting position.

Picking up Heilman seems to mean that the Peavy plan is all but quashed, unfortunately.

[Knowledged_one]

Orioles and cubs talking trade again this time rich hill for what may end up being a player to be named later depending on hills performance. So two of the guys they would have gotten for roberts (hill and pie) have now been gotten for a ptbnl and garret olson, good thing angelos turned down the deal last year

[epo]

Orioles and cubs talking trade again this time rich hill for what may end up being a player to be named later depending on hills performance. So two of the guys they would have gotten for roberts (hill and pie) have now been gotten for a ptbnl and garret olson, good thing angelos turned down the deal last year

Rich Hill is one of those classic guys who you just know is gonna bust out at some point. Unfortunately for the Cubs, they problem don't feel like they have the roster space to let him figure it out.

Of course as a fan of a division rival...I don't mind, but admit that it is a shame.

[Knowledged_one]

Similar to o's and daniel cabrerra

[TheMojoPin]

Orioles and cubs talking trade again this time rich hill for what may end up being a player to be named later depending on hills performance. So two of the guys they would have gotten for roberts (hill and pie) have now been gotten for a ptbnl and garret olson, good thing angelos turned down the deal last year

Eh...the deal Angelos turned down was going to net them something like 6 players.

[TheMojoPin]

Rich Hill is one of those classic guys who you just know is gonna bust out at some point. Unfortunately for the Cubs, they problem don't feel like they have the roster space to let him figure it out.

Of course as a fan of a division rival...I don't mind, but admit that it is a shame.

I really wish they'd attempt to move him to the bullpen to start over as a LOOGY and get his confidence back. I can only assume there's somthing going on in his head because he showed for several years in the minors and a year and a half in the majors he definitely has the stuff to succeed as a very good pitcher. His flameout was so sudden and dramatic...God only knows what happened. He's not showing signs of injury...he just suddenly couldn't find the strikezone on a regular basis.

[Knowledged_one]

Yeah i think the others were gallagher,
veal, and cedeno. Like i said though pie and hill for olson (who they flipped for heillman) and a ptbnl may have been better all things being equal

[TheMojoPin]

Yeah i think the others were gallagher,
veal, and cedeno. Like i said though pie and hill for olson (who they flipped for heillman) and a ptbnl may have been better all things being equal

Possibly. By the time the O's turn it around, Roberts likely won't be any use to them or will be gone. I also think Patterson or Murton were part of the deal. I'm not saying any of those guys will amount to anything, but they would have gotten a haul of young, cheap players, most with high ceilings, for a role player on a team not doing much of anything any time soon. MacPhail clearly recognized that, but Angelos showed yet again he has no baseball sense.

[Knowledged_one]

Possibly. By the time the O's turn it around, Roberts likely won't be any use to them or will be gone.

if he doesnt sign an extension it may be by august

[TheMojoPin]

if he doesnt sign an extension it may be by august

At which point they won't get anything along the lines of that deal since Roberts will be older and closer to the end of his contract.

Angelos sucks. So does the Angelos with the Bears. Angeloses need to stay out of pro sports because they're morons.

[K.C.]

Since we're talking O's....what's the deal with Angelos dropping nearly 30 million of payroll between 2007 and 2008.

He should have had a ton of cash to spend this offseason, unless they've decided they're not a 90-100 million team anymore.

As to when they'll be good??

Well, they'll trim almost another 35 million of payroll after the 2009 season, with Huff, Mora, Roberts, Walker, Baez, and Freel expiring.


I like their outfield of Luke Scott, Adam Jones, Nick Markakis. That should continue to get better and better.

They have no infield, though. They literally will have to rebuild all four positions at the end of this season, and they don't even really have any great infield prospects.

Wieters is supposedly a can't miss catching prospect, though.

The rotation sucks after Guthrie, but if they can get Chris Ray right this season, between him, Sherrill, and Johnson, they could have a nice back end of the bullpen.

There's nothing in free agency for 2010 in regards to the infield.

So they really may want to trade away their veterans this year to try and get some young infield talent or pitching.

[K.C.]

Actually, what O's should do:

1) Sign Adam Dunn to play 1B, trade Aubrey Huff for prospects
2) Make the Hill for PTBNL trade
3) Extend Brian Roberts

And then for 2010
1) Sign Troy Glaus
2) Make a run at either John Lackey or Justin Duchscherer.

So then you're looking at the 2010 Orioles as:

1) Roberts 2B
2) Dunn 1B
3) Markakis RF
4) Glaus 3B
5) Scott DH
6) Jones CF
7) Wieters C
8) Pie LF
9) Izturis SS

SP - Lackey/Duchscherer
SP - Guthrie
SP - Hill
SP - Uehara
SP - Tillman

CL - Ray
SU - Sherrill
MR - Johnson


And then fill in...that would actually be a pretty competitive team, especially if they hit on Tillman and Wieters.

[Knowledged_one]

They have a bunch of other arms like arrieta, hernandez and brian matusz to name a few. But you are right about their minor league talent if wise though they did have a good draft last year. And scott is now the dh with pie/freel in left and huff at first. And they wont sign dunn as they are now getting away from the deals like that as that got them in the situation they are in now. I could see them go with either scott moore or mike costanzo at 3rd next year and they have izturis at ss for the next two years. If they hit with some of their young pitchers i could see them trading one or two of them for an impact bat either way its going to be rough this year

[epo]

Yankees reached free-agent quota (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090129&content_id=3784888&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp&c_id=nyy&partnerId=rss_nyy)
Unless limit raised, Bombers cannot sign any more Type As or Bs

The most commonly held misconception of this offseason is that the Yankees could have signed pitcher Ben Sheets or could still sign left-fielder Manny Ramirez if only there were a few million dollars remaining in the Steinbrenner bank.
Both assumptions are incorrect. According to the Basic Agreement, and confirmed by a top Major League Baseball official, once the Yankees signed CC Sabathia, A.J. Burnett and Mark Teixeira, they had signed their quota of Type A or Type B free agents under the collectively bargained rules established by management and the Players Association.

All three were Type A free agents who played for other teams last season aside from the Yankees. The Yankees could re-sign their own Type A or Type B free agents without it affecting the quota.

Under the rules, "if there are from 39 to 62 [Type A and B] players [during a given offseason], no team can sign more than three."

That's correct, the Yankees can't sign anymore Class A or Class B free agents that didn't play for them in 2008. So the next time Kevin claims the Yankees should sign Manny or Sheets, you get to punch him in the mouth.

[Bossanova]

Yankees reached free-agent quota (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090129&content_id=3784888&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp&c_id=nyy&partnerId=rss_nyy)
Unless limit raised, Bombers cannot sign any more Type As or Bs



That's correct, the Yankees can't sign anymore Class A or Class B free agents that didn't play for them in 2008. So the next time Kevin claims the Yankees should sign Manny or Sheets, you get to punch him in the mouth.

Do you have any idea how long i have waited for those words

[foodcourtdruide]

Yankees reached free-agent quota (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090129&content_id=3784888&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp&c_id=nyy&partnerId=rss_nyy)
Unless limit raised, Bombers cannot sign any more Type As or Bs



That's correct, the Yankees can't sign anymore Class A or Class B free agents that didn't play for them in 2008. So the next time Kevin claims the Yankees should sign Manny or Sheets, you get to punch him in the mouth.

I think this is the best explaination for why they re-signed Pettitte.

[epo]

Do you have any idea how long i have waited for those words

I wrote them with you in mind.

[Bossanova]

I wrote them with you in mind.

HAHA! That is true love sir

[epo]

HAHA! That is true love sir

My only shock is that it took us 117 pages to gay up this thread.

[Bossanova]

My only shock is that it took us 117 pages to gay up this thread.

Its our respect for the game, unfortunately for the game we also respect gay humor

[midwestjeff]

Its our respect for the game, unfortunately for the game we also respect gay humor

I saw the gay, where was the humor?


Anyway, Pujols gave LaRussa Manny's phone number.
Cards' faggoty GM says no way they'd try to sign him.
I don't really care either way, just thought it was interesting. Probably isn't.

[Kevin]

I think this is the best explaination for why they re-signed Pettitte.



Rules, shmules. They only apply to commoner franchises like Epo's Brewers, Not the Yankees. Yankees don't need to wait days after killing a cow either. THEY GET IT THAT DAY!! IN A DAMN BOX!

[spadanko]

Jason Varitek has reached a two-year agreement with the Red Sox, SI.com has learned. The captain decided to return after many twists and turns in negotiations.

The 36-year-old catcher, who has served as Boston's official team captain since 2005, is coming off of the worst offensive season of his career, hitting just .220 with 43 RBIs in 131 games.

[Snoogans]

from what i hear its a 1 year 3 million with a player option for 3 mill or a team option at 5 mill in 2010

[Kevin]

I as a Yankee fan, approve this move. Now just resign Timlin and you will be set.

[Puggle_kicker]

old catchers are bad news. they better clear a spot at 1B.

[TheMojoPin]

I saw the gay, where was the humor?


Anyway, Pujols gave LaRussa Manny's phone number.
Cards' faggoty GM says no way they'd try to sign him.
I don't really care either way, just thought it was interesting. Probably isn't.

Yeah, the thought of Manny on the Cardinals is terrifying.

[Puggle_kicker]

The thought of Manny anywhere is terrifying.

[Kevin]

Epo... ssssssssssssooooooooooorrrrrrrrrie.. From our boy PA

Fear not, greedy Yankee fans, the Yankees can sign all the Type A free agents if they want.
A story on MLB.com today said the Yankees had reached the quota on Type A free agents.
This led to — seriously — a dozen e-mails from fans who want Juan Cruz, Adam Dunn and/or Manny Ramirez.
Turns out the story is wrong. Brian Cashman said the Yankees could sign up to eight if they want. “I’m not sure of the exact number, but it’s one we won’t worry about either way,” he said.
I’m not clear on the exact reasons. But the large pool of FAs led to an adjustment in the quota. I also think it has something to do with how many ranked FAs they had.
Panic over. Think big thoughts.
And, no, Cash wouldn’t say whether than plan to sign anybody else.

[epo]

Epo... ssssssssssssooooooooooorrrrrrrrrie.. From our boy PA

If I can't trust MLB, who can I trust?

[Knowledged_one]

Quoting pa i dont even know who you are anymore

[Knowledged_one]

If I can't trust MLB, who can I trust?

bret favre?

[Kevin]

Quoting pa i dont even know who you are anymore

I have to do it for the weeks i have with my bet with spoon I am playing a gay Retard.. So BDC.

[epo]

Sources: Shouse, Rays near 2-year deal (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3875013&campaign=rss&source=MLBHeadlines)

Brian Shouse, a veteran left-handed reliever, has agreed to a two-year deal with the Tampa Bay Rays, according to baseball sources. The deal is pending a physical exam, which he will take on Thursday.

Shouse, 40, pitched in 69 games for the Brewers last season, mostly as a specialist against left-handed hitters. Lefties hit just .180 against him with a .192 on-base percentage and a .482 OPS. Shouse has pitched in more than 422 games in the big leagues over nine seasons with 216 strikeouts and 111 walks in 322.2 innings.

I'm amazed that Brian Shouse's agent got a 40-year old lefty a two-year deal.

[epo]

Orioles close to landing Hill (http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baseball/bal-orioles0201,0,2777873.story?track=rss)

The Orioles could announce as early as tomorrow that they will acquire left-handed starter Rich Hill from the Chicago Cubs for a player to be named later, according to industry sources. One source cautioned that the deal is not yet complete, but the Orioles are hopeful that it will be by early this week.

Its always amazing how somebody in baseball can go from prospect to retread in the matter of a year.

[TheMojoPin]

Orioles close to landing Hill (http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baseball/bal-orioles0201,0,2777873.story?track=rss)



Its always amazing how somebody in baseball can go from prospect to retread in the matter of a year.

Not when they're a product from the Cubs' system. This is just par for the course. I'm waiting for something to go horribly wrong with Soto.

[MHasegawa]

Caribbean Series on MLB network right now.

Currently Dominican Republic vs. Venezuela, Puerto Rico vs. Mexico later tonight (10 eastern)

[epo]

Brewers staying put while market drops (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090202&content_id=3792648&vkey=hotstove2008&fext=.jsp&partnerId=rss_mlb)
Club won't add personnel unless bargain presents itself

It may take a major bargain to convince the Brewers to make even a minor addition to their 2009 player payroll.

During his recent trip to Milwaukee, principal owner Mark Attanasio said the team already has already committed about $82-83 million, depending on the outcomes of talks with arbitration-eligible outfielder Corey Hart and second baseman Rickie Weeks. That's about the same level at which the team entered 2008.

Is it me or is just about every team just playing it almost too coy right now?

[cougarjake13]

Brewers staying put while market drops (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090202&content_id=3792648&vkey=hotstove2008&fext=.jsp&partnerId=rss_mlb)
Club won't add personnel unless bargain presents itself



Is it me or is just about every team just playing it almost too coy right now?

it seems that way, and everyones using the economy




for example, i heard no stories of anyone but the mets wanting to sign ollie perez
a young lefthander that has pitched well at times in the pressure of new york

[PD]

this one's for epo:

just heard on XM175- kevin kennedy relayed story (maybe by Robin Yount) that he Milwaukee was a great baseball town - esp because of the tailgating there.

[TheMojoPin]

Can't believe that guys like Manny and Dunn and Abreu are still unsigned. What a wonky offseason.

[Kevin]

Can't believe that guys like Manny and Dunn and Abreu are still unsigned. What a wonky offseason.



Orlando Cabrera does not have a job, yet Renteria does? Whaaaaa?

[hexy68]

9 days 'til spring training :thumbup:

[Knowledged_one]

Well manny just turned down a 25 mil one year deal from the dodgers he is still under the delusion that he will get a 4 year deal for 100 mil

[midwestjeff]

Well manny just turned down a 25 mil one year deal from the dodgers he is still under the delusion that he will get a 4 year deal for 100 mil

No, he's working on signing a discounted deal with the Cards so he can hit behind his best friend Albert.

[hammersavage]

Orlando Hudson still available. The Mets would be better off pursuing him than Manny (which they aren't doing anyway).

[TheMojoPin]

Well manny just turned down a 25 mil one year deal from the dodgers he is still under the delusion that he will get a 4 year deal for 100 mil

That's part of what I'm talking about, it's nuts that the only offers we've heard for him are the 2 from the Dodgers. Boras and "Manny being Manny" aside, you know it's an off year when a guy like that with his proven production is still out there and there's not more talk of interest.

[El Mudo]

Orlando Cabrera does not have a job, yet Renteria does? Whaaaaa?



Renteria career EqA: .267

OCab career EqA: .255


Renteria career WARP3: 65.3

OCab career WARP3: 56.7


They both stink on ice offensively, but OCab's fielding isnt good enough to overcome that, and Renteria's fielding isn't bad enough to overcome his (albeit limited) offensive production.

But I would much rather have a hitter thats a little better than average (like Renteria) than a hitter who's a little worse than average. Granted Renteria was TERRIBLE last year, but so was Detroit as a whole

[Knowledged_one]

That's part of what I'm talking about, it's nuts that the only offers we've heard for him are the 2 from the Dodgers. Boras and "Manny being Manny" aside, you know it's an off year when a guy like that with his proven production is still out there and there's not more talk of interest.

it may be collusion but i think teams may have started calling boras on his bluffs/lies and the deals he says he can get his clients.

and with the way the market is guys like hudson not being signed is holding up someone like brian roberts and his possible extension

[skyscraper]

it may be collusion but i think teams may have started calling boras on his bluffs/lies and the deals he says he can get his clients.


when players organize themselves, it's called a union.
when owners organize themselves, it's called collusion.
I don't even know if you can sue because of collusion in baseball, because it is not subject to antitrust laws.

[TheMojoPin]

It's not collusion at all. The games Manny wins far outweighs his antics. In any other year he's signed aready.

[Knowledged_one]

when players organize themselves, it's called a union.
when owners organize themselves, it's called collusion.
I don't even know if you can sue because of collusion in baseball, because it is not subject to antitrust laws.

i think these charges have been levied against owners before or maybe i am mixing up baseball and football

[cougarjake13]

i think these charges have been levied against owners before or maybe i am mixing up baseball and football

what was the deal with steinnbrenar that got him banned for 2 yrs

wsnt it something with winfield ??

[PD]

what was the deal with steinnbrenar that got him banned for 2 yrs

wsnt it something with winfield ??
edit:
yes, it was the Howard Spira incident.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE3DA1138F933A05754C0A9669582 60

of course Steinbrenner was a convicted felon
due to illegal contributions to the Nixon campaign.
CREEP
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DEEDF103EF933A15752C0A96F9482 60

[Kevin]

Renteria career EqA: .267

OCab career EqA: .255


Renteria career WARP3: 65.3

OCab career WARP3: 56.7


They both stink on ice offensively, but OCab's fielding isnt good enough to overcome that, and Renteria's fielding isn't bad enough to overcome his (albeit limited) offensive production.

But I would much rather have a hitter thats a little better than average (like Renteria) than a hitter who's a little worse than average. Granted Renteria was TERRIBLE last year, but so was Detroit as a whole

Renteria looks done. He has been for a while. I think if you need a SS, Cabrera would be the better signing.

[epo]

Rangers passing on Sheets? (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/39139372.html)

T.R. Sullivan, who covers the Texas Rangers for mlb.com, is wired into what's going on with his team. And Sullivan believes the Rangers will pass on free agent righty Ben Sheets.

It has been assumed by many that Sheets would end up in Texas. Former Brewers pitching coach Mike Maddux is there now, and is a big booster. And Sheets has a home in Dallas, making the Rangers a logical choice.

But it hasn't gotten done and Sullivan now believes it won't. Which raises the question: Where will Sheets end up?

Someone familiar with the situation virtually guaranteed me that Sheets won't come back to Milwaukee. If that was going to get done, it would have happened in January, when GM Doug Melvin made one last pass at Sheets with the proposition of an incentive-laden deal. Sheets' agent said no thanks.

Which takes us back to December, when Sheets turned down the Brewers' offer of salary arbitration. Had Sheets accepted, he would have been a "signed" player for 2009, with his salary to be negotiated. He made $11 million in salary last year, and that figure wouldn't have gone down.

So, Sheets' destination remains the biggest mystery on the market. Obviously, his health problems -- including a torn flexor muscle near his elbow at the end of the '08 season -- have scared off potential suitors.

Spring training starts in just over a week. As it stands now, Sheets will be staying home.

I'm still amazed that Sheets didn't take the Brewers offer of arbitration. This is a case of an agent over-playing the hand of his client.

[El Mudo]

Renteria looks done. He has been for a while. I think if you need a SS, Cabrera would be the better signing.


I wouldn't say he's "done"...he was terrible last year, but in the two years before that he had and EqA of .305 and .280. He may have peaked then I think, but his career EqA is only .267, so he's never really been much of an offensive threat (except for 2003 when he was pretty damn good, with a 10.0 WARP3).


Cabrera's a year older, is a TERRIBLE awful hitter for his carrer (.255 EqA...woof), and an okay fielder. I mean, for the love of mary, the guy had 730 PA's last year, and put up a sparkling EqA of .262. That's just awful. I would MUCH rather have the guy that can give me a little offense than the guy who gives me NO offense

[El Mudo]

when players organize themselves, it's called a union.
when owners organize themselves, it's called collusion.
I don't even know if you can sue because of collusion in baseball, because it is not subject to antitrust laws.



They still have a collective bargaining agreement they are bound to follow, and baseball owners have a rich history of trying to circumvent it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseball_collusion)

Baseball's Anti Trust exemption basically means that individual teams are bound to and controlled by MLB

[hammersavage]

I'm still amazed that Sheets didn't take the Brewers offer of arbitration. This is a case of an agent over-playing the hand of his client.

Well, this might clear up some of the reason why he isn't signed yet.

According to Adam McCalvy and T.R. Sullivan at MLB.com, Ben Sheets may need elbow surgery.

They report the following:

“Sheets may need surgery to repair the torn flexor tendon in his elbow, and [the Brewers] may be asked to pick up the tab.”

“The Texas Rangers and Sheets reached an agreement on a two-year contract late last week and only a physical stood in the way of the deal being completed. But everything changed once it was determined that Sheets had a torn flexor tendon that might require surgery.”

Rangers General Manager Jon Daniels is “not optimistic” that they will continue to pursue Sheets.

[spadanko]

1:56pm: ESPN's Jayson Stark says the surgery Sheets is considering has a standard 9-10 month recovery time, jeopardizing his 2009 season. Stark adds that "some teams that had pursued Sheets this winter seemed to be more concerned about his shoulder than his elbow."

Ken Rosenthal says Sheets is "seriously considering" surgery, with the goal of pitching in the second half.

[cougarjake13]

good thing no one signed him

[underdog]

WTF?!?! (http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117999601.html?categoryid=13&cs=1&nid=2562)

Steven Soderbergh is in talks to direct "Moneyball," the Columbia Pictures adaptation of Michael Lewis' book "Moneyball: The Art of Winning an Unfair Game." ... Brad Pitt, with whom Soderbergh has worked in all of the "Ocean's" films, has been circling "Moneyball" since last year, when Steve Zaillian signed on to adapt the book after original scripter Stan Chervin exited the project. "Marley and Me" helmer David Frankel had also been attached.

How the fuck do you make a movie out of this book?

They should make a movie based on The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract.

[spadanko]

Manny could fire Boras

http://www.impactodeportivo.com.do/?op=displaystory&story_id=5229&format=html

yes, not the best source, but still something

[foodcourtdruide]

WTF?!?! (http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117999601.html?categoryid=13&cs=1&nid=2562)



How the fuck do you make a movie out of this book?

They should make a movie based on The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract.

Baseball prospectus could be a sitcom. "You wanna go where everybody knows your ERA+"

[Kevin]

Manny could fire Boras

http://www.impactodeportivo.com.do/?op=displaystory&story_id=5229&format=html

yes, not the best source, but still something

Que???

[underdog]

Que???

Ci. (Si?)

[Pestz4Evah]

One thing that now seems clear (and perhaps a bit sobering to Boras and Manny): the market for Manny now appears to have dwindled to the Dodgers and the Giants. The general managers of the Mets, Yankees and Nationals have all stated publicly over the past 48 hours that their clubs are NOT in pursuit of Manny. (http://www.insidesocal.com/dodgers/2009/02/turns-out-there.html)

. . .


I did learn today, however, from a source close to the Giants that they would be willing to go to two years with Manny Ramirez, although it likely would have to be at an average annual salary south of $20 million. (http://www.insidesocal.com/dodgers/2009/02/once-again-all.html)

So it is down the the Dodgers and the Giants, the Dodgers have to this point have made the biggest offer to Manny, and Boras is warning the Dodgers to not play chicken with him or his client.:rolleyes:

[El Mudo]

WTF?!?! (http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117999601.html?categoryid=13&cs=1&nid=2562)



How the fuck do you make a movie out of this book?

They should make a movie based on The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract.



It would actually be a pretty interesting story when you consider Moneyball is about finding undervalued skills in a limited market, AND the reaction it caused (and still causes) from "traditional" baseball people who pretty much equate it with every single evil thing in the last 30 years combined and multiplied by 1,000 ("OBP!? That doesn't tell me how much grit a player has!"). I think it would be a wonderful way to kind of "open" up people to things like sabermetrics and get them to see beyond dumb stats like batting averages and RBI and how absolutely full of crap 98% of baseball writers and talking heads are.

My favourite Moneyball target is Joe Morgan, who cosistently (:bye:) rips the book and thinks Billy Beane wrote it himself, but has actually NEVER READ THE BOOK by his own admission.

[PD]

1:56pm: ESPN's Jayson Stark says the surgery Sheets is considering has a standard 9-10 month recovery time, jeopardizing his 2009 season. Stark adds that "some teams that had pursued Sheets this winter seemed to be more concerned about his shoulder than his elbow."

Ken Rosenthal says Sheets is "seriously considering" surgery, with the goal of pitching in the second half.

The "story" yesterday and today has been people bitching that the Brewers will be "paying" for Sheets surgery, even though he's a Free agent. Maybe it's me, but this is a non-story- this basically is a Workman's compensation issue.

What is more of an issue is Sheets should fire his agent (or himself) for not accepting Arbitration.

[PD]

It would actually be a pretty interesting story when you consider Moneyball is about finding undervalued skills in a limited market, AND the reaction it caused (and still causes) from "traditional" baseball people who pretty much equate it with every single evil thing in the last 30 years combined and multiplied by 1,000 ("OBP!? That doesn't tell me how much grit a player has!"). I think it would be a wonderful way to kind of "open" up people to things like sabermetrics and get them to see beyond dumb stats like batting averages and RBI and how absolutely full of crap 98% of baseball writers and talking heads are.

My favourite Moneyball target is Joe Morgan, who cosistently (:bye:) rips the book and thinks Billy Beane wrote it himself, but has actually NEVER READ THE BOOK by his own admission.

Joel Sherman and Jim Duquette talked about Moneyball the other day, and it was a good listen. They somewhat ripped the book- not for doing statistical analysis, but for
a) making it sound like no one else ever used statistics- even though the Twins were doing it previously
b) for them all "High-fiving" over their draft; look now at their draft that year, and see who was either picked before that they made fun of (Scott Kazmir), or who they didn't pick because they were a HS player (Cole Hammels, etc).

[foodcourtdruide]

It would actually be a pretty interesting story when you consider Moneyball is about finding undervalued skills in a limited market, AND the reaction it caused (and still causes) from "traditional" baseball people who pretty much equate it with every single evil thing in the last 30 years combined and multiplied by 1,000 ("OBP!? That doesn't tell me how much grit a player has!"). I think it would be a wonderful way to kind of "open" up people to things like sabermetrics and get them to see beyond dumb stats like batting averages and RBI and how absolutely full of crap 98% of baseball writers and talking heads are.

My favourite Moneyball target is Joe Morgan, who cosistently (:bye:) rips the book and thinks Billy Beane wrote it himself, but has actually NEVER READ THE BOOK by his own admission.

We all know the true measure of pitching performance is Wins. If a pitcher wins he is good, there are no shades of grey or exceptions. Wins don't only measure victories, but it measures a magical powers that pitchers have to propel their teams to victory.

[PD]

to be fair, there is middle ground.

Yes, Wins (and RBI's) are more dependent on team performance; however to totally disregard them is foolish.

Steve Carlton's 27 wins in 1972 for the Phillies is amazing.
the next highest win total on that team was 7.

Yes,it's not magic - it's performance and team, but there is something to be said for people who can win a high percentage of team wins.

[foodcourtdruide]

to be fair, there is middle ground.

Yes, Wins (and RBI's) are more dependent on team performance; however to totally disregard them is foolish.

Steve Carlton's 27 wins in 1972 for the Phillies is amazing.
the next highest win total on that team was 7.

Yes,it's not magic - it's performance and team, but there is something to be said for people who can win a high percentage of team wins.

You can use statistics other than Wins to measure Carlton's performance that season. I think the only thing that is to be said for a pitcher with a high percentage of wins is that more often than not his teams offense outperformed the other teams offense, and take that for what it is.

Last year Johan Santana had 16 wins. You're a Mets fan, correct? Would you EVER trust a statistic that measures Santana's performance last season as equal with that of Aaron Cook?

[El Mudo]

Joel Sherman and Jim Duquette talked about Moneyball the other day, and it was a good listen. They somewhat ripped the book- not for doing statistical analysis, but for
a) making it sound like no one else ever used statistics- even though the Twins were doing it previously
b) for them all "High-fiving" over their draft; look now at their draft that year, and see who was either picked before that they made fun of (Scott Kazmir), or who they didn't pick because they were a HS player (Cole Hammels, etc).

I don't agree with that assessment at all from Duquette and Joel Sherman.

(a) The whole concept of the book was about finding things that were undervalued in an "unfair" market. The A's had no way to compete with bigger market teams in terms of getting the best players, so they looked at things they considered "undervalued", like OBP, and college players, and guys that may not have "looked" like "traditional baseball players". Since OBP is a skill that's no longer "undervalued" (thanks in part to Moneyball), they've had to look for other things that are "undervalued" in the market. Its BEYOND amazing theyve been as successful as they have with their tiny payroll

(b) The draft is, and always will be, a crapshoot. Why don't people realize this when they talk about draft busts? And furthermore, Why didn't they praise Beane for stealing Dan Haren and Kiko Calero from St. Louis for Mark Mulder? Or letting Barry Zito walk away? Its always helpful to look at things in hindsight *rolls eyes*.


to be fair, there is middle ground.

Yes, Wins (and RBI's) are more dependent on team performance; however to totally disregard them is foolish.

Steve Carlton's 27 wins in 1972 for the Phillies is amazing.
the next highest win total on that team was 7.

Yes,it's not magic - it's performance and team, but there is something to be said for people who can win a high percentage of team wins.


Look at that last sentence you typed...thats a complete contradiction. Yes its amazing that Carlton won 27 games for the Phils in 72, but its completely irrelevant. Its more important that he had an ERA + of 182 (making him 82% BETTER than the average pitcher) and that his WHIP was .99, which is Pedro esque. His K/BB ratio was 8.6 to 1.9. THOSE stats say he had an amazing year...not the fact that his record was 27-10

Wins are a dumb stat and should be completely disregarded in talking of how good a pitcher is. I will say that completely and unequivocally. If I give up 19 runs and walk 22 batters, but my team scores 20, does that make me a good pitcher? Absolutely not.

[PD]

maybe I misstated my view on wins, maybe it's just a tough selling point.

Yes, wins are minor. Yes there are many more things that measure success better.
I do however believe that the answer is more than simply statistics. Statistics only >only scouts, but there is something to be said for a combined view. Yes, I look at Whip as my first pitching stat, and wins would be way down the list, I personally believe there is something to intangibles; there is something to being able to play in certain places (like NY) with its distractions, there is something to being able to bear down and get wins that others might not. it may be a contradiction; I know wins of itself are not a good statistic, but I do think some pitchers are more likely to get wins than others. so sue me for being silly.

as for Sherman/duquette, maybe Im not explaining it properly, but you seemed to miss the point about the Twins- that they did statistical analysis for many years before Moneyball, as did a number of other teams (Davey Johnson was known for having printouts), and the Twins are just as financially strapped as the A's.

the point about the draft is that you can't have it both ways- you can't say "you have the answer" and then point to the draft being a crapshoot.

I liked Moneyball - but it is not a bible.

[cougarjake13]

wins are too tricky to count how good a pitcher is


you could have a guy go 20-11 with 4.00 era with 5 no decisions

and another guy who had 15-5 with a 2.35 era with 12 no decisions


who's the better pitcher ??

[PD]

wins are too tricky to count how good a pitcher is


you could have a guy go 20-11 with 4.00 era with 5 no decisions

and another guy who had 15-5 with a 2.35 era with 12 no decisions


who's the better pitcher ??

no doubt wins can be misleading; and I really don't wanna be the one to defend wins as being an important stat, when it is so misleading.

In some ways it's like the concept of players who are "clutch". Many stat freaks will tell you its more a result of small sample size, and often that may be true for some players, but it can be argued that this does exist, that some players are able to concentrate better than others in significant situations, etc.

I do believe in sabermetrics; I just also believe that there should be a scouting element in this as well.

[Knowledged_one]

In this day and age i believe in the fantasy numbers and wins are more important then whip or era in my league

[cougarjake13]

well now you'll have fantasy juggernaut ty wigginton for your orioles there k.o.

[Knowledged_one]

well now you'll have fantasy juggernaut ty wigginton for your orioles there k.o.

although versatile and eligible at a ton of spots he wont get enough ab's, though i am unsure what if i am going to keep

[cougarjake13]

although versatile and eligible at a ton of spots he wont get enough ab's, though i am unsure what if i am going to keep

he's good to have during those spurts he has but overall unless you have injuries but in most leagues he doesnt get drafted or picked up

[epo]

The "story" yesterday and today has been people bitching that the Brewers will be "paying" for Sheets surgery, even though he's a Free agent. Maybe it's me, but this is a non-story- this basically is a Workman's compensation issue.

What is more of an issue is Sheets should fire his agent (or himself) for not accepting Arbitration.

I concur. I kind of thought originally that Sheets' agent overplayed his hand by not accepting arbitration (which would have guaranteed $10-12M) and now that's pretty obvious. That agent should have known that medical record and taken the deal.

As for the surgery, I'll be the first to say that the Brewers should pay the bill. He was hurt pitching for them and its their responsibility.

[Knowledged_one]

Yeah i play in an 8 team league and we use 17 mlb teams coincidentally the o's are actually in the league

[underdog]

If I give up 19 runs and walk 22 batters, but my team scores 20, does that make me a good pitcher? Absolutely not.

You'd probably be heralded for your "grit" and "gamer-ness" for being able to win in that situation, and then given a multi-year, multi-million dollar deal from some awful team.

[Dan 'Hampton]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/baseball/mlb/02/07/alex-rodriguez-steroids/index.html
F friday, this is a good Saturday

[KnoxHarrington]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/baseball/mlb/02/07/alex-rodriguez-steroids/index.html
F friday, this is a good Saturday

BWAHAHAHAHAHA

[epo]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/baseball/mlb/02/07/alex-rodriguez-steroids/index.html
F friday, this is a good Saturday

I just saw this on SportsCenter. From the article for people who don't wanna click:

In 2003, when he won the American League home run title and the AL Most Valuable Player award as a shortstop for the Texas Rangers, Alex Rodriguez tested positive for two anabolic steroids, four sources have independently told Sports Illustrated.

[KnoxHarrington]

And, yet again, something the mainstream media absolutely crucifies Jose Canseco for saying in a book turns out to be true.

[epo]

And, yet again, something the mainstream media absolutely crucifies Jose Canseco for saying in a book turns out to be true.

I said it then and I'll say it now: Jose Canseco was absolutely telling the truth.

[Dan 'Hampton]

I'm not going to sit here and say that steroids weren't being used by the sox. This way I don't come across as yankee hater/basher although I am. One of my fav players ever Trot Nixon probably a juicer, but gotta love seeing the lip glosser getting called out.

[sailor]

he's still a rat fink betraying the trust of others for personal gain.

[KnoxHarrington]

The big problem for baseball is this: baseball wanted to use A-Rod as the savior, the guy who was going to save us from the most sacred record in sports being held by a juicer. Upset that Barry Bond, a 'roiding asshole, is now the home run king? Don't worry, A-Rod's going to take the title back soon. Now it turns out he juices too. So who's going to save us from Bonds now?

[Dan 'Hampton]

lil Dustin Pedroia?

[IMSlacker]

The big problem for baseball is this: baseball wanted to use A-Rod as the savior, the guy who was going to save us from the most sacred record in sports being held by a juicer. Upset that Barry Bond, a 'roiding asshole, is now the home run king? Don't worry, A-Rod's going to take the title back soon. Now it turns out he juices too. So who's going to save us from Bonds now?

Ryan Theroit. He's scrappy!

[TheMojoPin]

The big problem for baseball is this: baseball wanted to use A-Rod as the savior, the guy who was going to save us from the most sacred record in sports being held by a juicer. Upset that Barry Bond, a 'roiding asshole, is now the home run king? Don't worry, A-Rod's going to take the title back soon. Now it turns out he juices too. So who's going to save us from Bonds now?

Adam Dunn.

[RingWraith]

So I guess the other 103 players are not big enough names to be in the headlines.

[jauble]

So I guess the other 103 players are not big enough names to be in the headlines.

It was supposed to be kept private per an agreement between the league and the player's union. Arod's name should not have been leaked.

[Kevin]

This was clearly done before he became a Yankee and saw the light.

[epo]

This was clearly done before he became a Yankee and saw the light.

Liar.

[sailor]

This was clearly done before he became a Yankee and saw the light.

just about the time the sox signed him.

[Kevin]

just about the time the sox signed him.



Exactly. Those dirty sox made him do it.

[sailor]

Exactly. Those dirty sox made him do it.

him, clemens...the facts speak for themselves.

[Kevin]

him, clemens...the facts speak for themselves.



Wasn't Consaco a Redsox before he was a Yankee?

[Kevin]

Don't forget. Sosa signed with the Redsox in 94. It was later said he still owed another year to the Cubs because of the strike.

[epo]

Don't forget. Sosa signed with the Redsox in 94. It was later said he still owed another year to the Cubs because of the strike.

This is clearly a tactic that the Yankees are good with.

A-Rod, Clemens, Giambi. Heck I wouldn't be surprised if Bucky Dent was a juicer.

[Creeptub]

I hate that my beloved Yanks keep signing these guys. Do they sceen at all? I miss the 70's

[Bossanova]

So, I guess the Yankee fans will say this is why he can't hit in the clutch with them

[Kevin]

So, I guess the Yankee fans will say this is why he can't hit in the clutch with them



If thats the case, every Met must take Roids in the month of sept.

[brettmojo]

If thats the case, every Met must take Roids in the month of sept.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f362/rhombus27/kelso_burn.gif

[cougarjake13]

Wasn't Consaco a Redsox before he was a Yankee?

yes

Boston Red Sox (1995–1996)
New York Yankees (2000)

[Kevin]

yes

Boston Red Sox (1995-1996)
New York Yankees (2000)



See? DOESN'T EVERYONE GET IT? This is a clever Redsox scheme, to roid up players, send them to the Yankees, and blame the Yankees. I'LL PLAY YOUR GAME YOU ROUGE!

[NickyL0885]

I dont see how this doesnt become a distraction for the Yankees. Spring Training is going to be a mob scene. and now A-Rod will be under more pressure in NY.

[underdog]

I dont see how this doesnt become a distraction for the Yankees. Spring Training is going to be a mob scene. and now A-Rod will be under more pressure in NY.

How could he possibly be under more pressure than he already is?

[epo]

It appears that Milwaukee will be signing Braden Looper (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/39319807.html).

While I'm not thrilled...adding another arm is always a good thing.

[midwestjeff]

It appears that Milwaukee will be signing Braden Looper (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/39319807.html).

While I'm not thrilled...adding another arm is always a good thing.

Nice to see the Cubs and Brewers continuing to build their teams from Cardinal cast offs.

If they need a second baseman, Adam Kennedy was released today.
Apparerntly they couldn't even work a trade for a minor league nobody.
So yeah, thank god they got Kahlil Greene or else this off-season would look like a total flop. :dry: