Police Shooting in NYC

[foodcourtdruide]

The news reports seem pretty vague, so I'll definitely withhold judgement.

One witness said he had his hands up, but the official story seems to be that he was approaching police with an object after his mother reported he had a gun. If the official story is true,, how could you blame them for firing on him?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/13/ny.shooting/index.html

Also, maybe Chris the Cop could answer this. In these situations, why do police use deadly force as opposed to tasers?

[Furtherman]

In these situations, why do police use deadly force as opposed to tasers?

Because if you are close enough to use a taser, then they are close enough to shoot you in the chest.

[angrymissy]

It's too bad that it had to play out this way, but what is a cop supposed to do when it's reported this guy has a gun, and they tell him to stop advancing towards him and he doesn't stop? Cops in NYC put their lives in danger constantly, it's tragic that this guy didn't have a gun, but the cops have to protect their own lives as well... it's a quick judgment they have to make.

If a cop tells me to freeze, I am going to fucking freeze and put my hands where they can see them.

I think tasers are reserved for people that are just flipping out and can't be controlled, not people advancing towards you with what is reported to be a gun.

I have nothing but respect for ANY cop that would work Bed-Stuy, that is one of the worst neighborhoods in NYC, and there is a negative attitude towards the police in those neighborhoods a lot of the time. I'm sorry, but I don't believe the so-called "Eyewitnesses" who said that he dropped the brush, put his hands in the air and they just started shooting. Why would the cops do that? They are going to spin it that it's because the guy was black.

[topless_mike]

i would not want to be an officer this day in age.
people have no 2nd thought about firing upon cops, in hopes of SBC.

[foodcourtdruide]

It's too bad that it had to play out this way, but what is a cop supposed to do when it's reported this guy has a gun, and they tell him to stop advancing towards him and he doesn't stop? Cops in NYC put their lives in danger constantly, it's tragic that this guy didn't have a gun, but the cops have to protect their own lives as well... it's a quick judgment they have to make.

If a cop tells me to freeze, I am going to fucking freeze and put my hands where they can see them.

I think tasers are reserved for people that are just flipping out and can't be controlled, not people advancing towards you with what is reported to be a gun.

I have nothing but respect for ANY cop that would work Bed-Stuy, that is one of the worst neighborhoods in NYC, and there is a negative attitude towards the police in those neighborhoods a lot of the time. I'm sorry, but I don't believe the so-called "Eyewitnesses" who said that he dropped the brush, put his hands in the air and they just started shooting. Why would the cops do that? They are going to spin it that it's because the guy was black.

I agree and this is why I wish the black community would see how damaging guys like Al Sharpton are. Constant false outrage waters down the response to situations where real outrage is merited.

[foodcourtdruide]

Because if you are close enough to use a taser, then they are close enough to shoot you in the chest.

I figured it might be some kinda distance/accuracy thing.

[pennington]

On the 11am news on WABC today, they had an audio clip of a witness who said he told the cops he had a gun when he jumped out a window. Maybe he thought they would back away or maybe it was an SBC.

Either way, expect Sharpton to insert himself yet again.

[cupcakelove]

On the 11am news on WABC today, they had an audio clip of a witness who said he told the cops he had a gun when he jumped out a window. Maybe he thought they would back away or maybe it was an SBC.

Either way, expect Sharpton to insert himself yet again.

NY1 has said that he is already planing his own investigation.

[angrymissy]

NY1 has said that he is already planing his own investigation.

Unfuckingbelievable. Those poor cops will now be dissected in the fucking media for weeks... I wonder if the cops were black. I drove through BedStuy by accident in the middle of the night once when my GPS took a weird route and practically shit my pants, I can only imagine responding to calls out there.

[Freitag]

Also, maybe Chris the Cop could answer this. In these situations, why do police use deadly force as opposed to tasers?

I might be out of line, but it might be in Chris' and the department's best interest if he doesn't post on this thread until stuff settles down. I might be paranoid, but what happened to Club Soda Kenny keeps popping into my head.


All I keep hearing is "Cop responds on popular website about shooting case - suspended without pay"...

[Freitag]

NY1 has said that he is already planing his own investigation.

CSI: Sharpton.

"Well Frank... it looks like he got... the brush-off."


YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[Chigworthy]

Another neighbor, Wayne Holder, said police should be required to see a weapon before opening fire on a suspect. "At least see a gun before you start to discharge it," Holder said. Police "don't even have to see it, [if] they think you got one, you're going to get shot."

This is my favorite part of the story. He wants cops to see a gun before reacting about it. In this case, the guy was heard on the 911 call saying he had a gun. Then the guy was advancing towards the officers with something in his hand while they told him to stop. What are officers supposed to do? Pretty soon people will be asking that they see the suspect's finger on the trigger before they can respond.

As far as the taser, there are a lot of possibilities why one wasn't used. When an officer is being threatened with great bodily injury, it is hard for him/her to make a decision on which level of force to use, and deadly force is the most likely to save the officer's (and others) life.

Also, if this scenario played out so quickly that the other officers weren't close enough to back up the shooting officer with their guns, using a taser would have been a bad idea as it is not a given that it will actually stop someone. Some departments don't want their officers to draw their taser if other officers are not there with their real guns.

Another possibility is that the officers didn't have tasers. Not every officer (I'm not sure about NYPD) has a taser. Some officers have a taser but keep them in the trunk of their car.

One of the key concepts that causes a divide between police and the public is the ammount of discretion the officers have. They aren't automatons and are required to make split-second decisions under life-threatening conditions.

A very similar incident happened out here in Santa Rosa earlier this year when a woman called 911 on her husband, who had apparently gone "loco" and started firing his gun into the ceiling. When police arrived, the man was in his driveway. They ordered him to lay down, which he did. He decided that he didn't want to lay down, and began getting up. The officer's ordered him to stay down, but he continued to get up. At this point, the guy had been shooting a gun, was acting crazy, and the officers had to assume he still had his gun and was going to use it on them. They shot and killed him, and found that he didn't have the gun on him.

Of course, this has caused an uproar in the community that they should have used a taser, that he was unarmed and they should have tackled him, etc. Unfortunately, the vocal minority (Not racial minority you racebaiters!) of the public doesn't understand that officers are trained to take the threat of great bodily injury or death very seriously and they can't take chances in a situation like that. It is a tragedy that a mentally-disturbed person was killed, but I think it would have been a greater tragedy if one of the innocent bystanders or an officer was killed.

[Furtherman]

All I keep hearing is "Cop responds on popular web site about shooting case - suspended without pay"...

Well now you're giving us too much credit.

[foodcourtdruide]

I might be out of line, but it might be in Chris' and the department's best interest if he doesn't post on this thread until stuff settles down. I might be paranoid, but what happened to Club Soda Kenny keeps popping into my head.


All I keep hearing is "Cop responds on popular website about shooting case - suspended without pay"...

I dunno. That would be pretty amazing. How many cops are named Chris?

[Chigworthy]

How many cops are named Chris with their picture all over the website?

[Freitag]

I dunno. That would be pretty amazing. How many cops are named Chris?

How many cops are named Chris with their picture all over the website?

CSK used a completely different name, and most people didn't have any idea he was a cop. Some figured he had security background or some sort of experience, but not a currently active cop, and they still found out about him.

I'm just saying that this is a very hot-button topic and any posts about it that don't follow the department's line could be taken as on-the-record comments from a NYPD officer.

[Chigworthy]

CSK used a completely different name, and most people didn't have any idea he was a cop. Some figured he had security background or some sort of experience, but not a currently active cop, and they still found out about him.

I'm just saying that this is a very hot-button topic and any posts about it that don't follow the department's line could be taken as on-the-record comments from a NYPD officer.

I missed the CSK episode.

[foodcourtdruide]

CSK used a completely different name, and most people didn't have any idea he was a cop. Some figured he had security background or some sort of experience, but not a currently active cop, and they still found out about him.

I'm just saying that this is a very hot-button topic and any posts about it that don't follow the department's line could be taken as on-the-record comments from a NYPD officer.

I agree, but that would really be a new low for the media.

[Freitag]

I missed the CSK episode.

It happened about a year ago so most news articles and non-pest accounts of the incident don't work, but CSK does cringe-standup. Never id'ed himself as a cop on stage, never made a living off his comedy. Someone sent a tape to his superiors after he had been doing it for a long time, and caught hell for it.

End result is that he was dismissed from the force but kept his retirement/pension benefits, and picked up a job with O&A.

[foodcourtdruide]

It happened about a year ago so most news articles and non-pest accounts of the incident don't work, but CSK does cringe-standup. Never id'ed himself as a cop on stage, never made a living off his comedy. Someone sent a tape to his superiors after he had been doing it for a long time, and caught hell for it.

End result is that he was dismissed from the force but kept his retirement/pension benefits, and picked up a job with O&A.

Do you remember the exact reason they dismissed him? I remember the incident clearly, but I didn't hear that he got dismissed or why he got dismissed.

[Freitag]

Do you remember the exact reason they dismissed him? I remember the incident clearly, but I didn't hear that he got dismissed or why he got dismissed.

I think, not sure, I think because it became a personal legal issue, they stopped talking about it after the initial blow-up. I'm not even sure if he was actually dismissed; he may have taken retirement early as part of a legal settlement or something. I think the fight wasn't over Kenny keeping his job, but it was about Kenny getting access to his benefits/pension/retirement after he left.

All I know is, because O&A didn't make a big deal out of it after it first happened, Kenny has a sterling rep as a cop, and Kenny now works full-time for O&A, Kenny left/lost his job, but presumably got his benefit package.

Again, if anyone wants to correct me, feel free.

[Chigworthy]

It happened about a year ago so most news articles and non-pest accounts of the incident don't work, but CSK does cringe-standup. Never id'ed himself as a cop on stage, never made a living off his comedy. Someone sent a tape to his superiors after he had been doing it for a long time, and caught hell for it.

End result is that he was dismissed from the force but kept his retirement/pension benefits, and picked up a job with O&A.

I must have prion-ridden brains. I had no idea that CSK meant Club Soda Kenny, and I do remember that incident. Whatta tool.

[angrymissy]

From what I've seen on the news today, this was a suicide by cop setup by the kid.

[cupcakelove]

From what I've seen on the news today, this was a suicide by cop setup by the kid.

That's what I thought yesterday as I heard the transcripts of the 911 calls, and the reports from police about what the guy was saying/doing when they showed up. The news just hasn't been reporting that like it could have been a suicide by cop. The first reference to that being a possibility was this morning, and the reports just kinda gleaned over it real quick without exploring any further.

[angrymissy]

That's what I thought yesterday as I heard the transcripts of the 911 calls, and the reports from police about what the guy was saying/doing when they showed up. The news just hasn't been reporting that like it could have been a suicide by cop. The first reference to that being a possibility was this morning, and the reports just kinda gleaned over it real quick without exploring any further.

From this article, it really sounds like that's what went down. Sounds like the kid was trying to get them to shoot him.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime_file/2007/11/14/2007-11-14_teen_khiel_coppin_said_he_was_prepared_t-2.html?print=1


Troubled Brooklyn teen Khiel Coppin told his mother he was 'prepared to die' and repeatedly yelled, 'I've got a gun!'

Police said they found handwritten notes in his pockets, including one that read, "Happyness iz death."

At one point, the teen yelled, "Come get me! I have a gun! Let's do this!" cops said.

He then reached under his sweatshirt, brandished an object and pointed it at cops "as if he were aiming a gun," Kelly said.

[scottinnj]

Justified Shooting, IMO.


Tragedy all the way around, including for the cops who did the shooting. How they must feel is anyone's guess.


Remember down here in the Philly area, how many cops have been shot so far? Ask the ones who have lived whether they saw a weapon before they were hit. The answer is "no," so I side with the cops in situations like this-just because you can't see the gun, doesn't mean it ain't there, and no job is worth your life when you don't have to die without first trying to defend yourself.

[nate1000]

I hate Al Sharpton:

Incendiary comments made at the dead criminal's funeral:

"I don't know who shot him, but I know what killed him," Sharpton told mourners. "What killed him was a climate of indifference that is pervasive in this city, where we have almost become immune to police brutality."

I cannot believe this mother fucker has not learned his lesson (Tawana Brawley). I also cannot believe that the african american community has not carved this muck stirring cocksucker out and continues to allow him to speak for them.

THE KID YELLED ""COME GET ME. I HAVE A GUN. LET"S DO THIS." For anyone to fail to see this as anything other than suicide by cop is lunacy. For that fat (i'll hold my tongue here) to use this to his advantage is simply less than human. And for the "Community" to shout amens to his lunacy leaves me speechless. :wallbash::furious:

[topless_mike]

dont give the cops a reason to shoot at you.
simple as that.

he found out the hard way.
oh well

[A.J.]

I hate Al Sharpton:

Incendiary comments made at the dead criminal's funeral:

"I don't know who shot him, but I know what killed him," Sharpton told mourners. "What killed him was a climate of indifference that is pervasive in this city, where we have almost become immune to police brutality."

I cannot believe this mother fucker has not learned his lesson (Tawana Brawley). I also cannot believe that the african american community has not carved this muck stirring cocksucker out and continues to allow him to speak for them.

THE KID YELLED ""COME GET ME. I HAVE A GUN. LET"S DO THIS." For anyone to fail to see this as anything other than suicide by cop is lunacy. For that fat (i'll hold my tongue here) to use this to his advantage is simply less than human. And for the "Community" to shout amens to his lunacy leaves me speechless. :wallbash::furious:

He and his followers need to watch "Lean on Me" again:

My motto is simple: If you do not succeed in life, I don't want you to blame your parents. I don't want you to blame the white man! I want you to blame yourselves! The responsibility is yours!!

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/images/leanonmespch2-012.JPG

[topless_mike]

He and his followers need to watch "Lean on Me" again:



http://www.americanrhetoric.com/images/leanonmespch2-012.JPG

too lazy to.

or, at least not until 50 cent is in the remake of it

[badmonkey]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/hobby.jpg

[TheMojoPin]

too lazy to.

or, at least not until 50 cent is in the remake of it

Yeah, Sharpton's supporters are clearly the kind of people that just adore 50 Cent. Oh, wait, that's right, that's ALL black people according to you. Good one, slick.

[Snacks]

Yeah, Sharpton's supporters are clearly the kind of people that just adore 50 Cent. Oh, wait, that's right, that's ALL black people according to you. Good one, slick.

come on mojo you know that ignorance runs rapid through white America. The funny thing is I went to a 50 cent concert 2 summers ago and 95% of the people at the concert...... White people.

[ralphbxny]

I hate Sharpton for reasons like this. This was a messed up situation and he never see's both sides. HE is an Ass.

[TheMojoPin]

Yeah, Sharpton is making himself look like his typical douche-y self here. I agree that the police obviously need to be accountable when violence escalates to this level, but unless there is a radical reversal of what went down, there's not anything that indicates he needs to stick himself into the situation. Piffybacking on tragedy for attention at its worst.

[badmonkey]

Yeah, Sharpton is making himself look like his typical douche-y self here. I agree that the police obviously need to be accountable when violence escalates to this level, but unless there is a radical reversal of what went down, there's not anything that indicates he needs to stick himself into the situation. Piffybacking on tragedy for attention at its worst.

http://mine.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/Youcantsayp128401612791588750.jpg

[TooLowBrow]

I hate Sharpton for reasons like this. This was a messed up situation and he never see's both sides. HE is an Ass.

why? cause he's black? THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!

[TheMojoPin]

http://mine.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/Youcantsayp128401612791588750.jpg

Oh snap! Busted...

Sorry about the "edit" to your post...I hit that button by mistake instead of the reply button.

[foodcourtdruide]

I've said this before and I'll say it again, the black community should reject Sharpton and his rhetoric. His false outrage cheapens real outrage. He is terrible for civil rights and social progression.

[TheMojoPin]

I've said this before and I'll say it again, the black community should reject Sharpton and his rhetoric.

What does this even mean? How is this even possible unless they work with some kind of hive mind or general consensus? It seems along the lines of people calling out "good Muslims" for not "rejecting bad Muslims"...aren't the people just doing their opwn thing and having nothing to do with the "bad element" already rejecting it?

[foodcourtdruide]

What does this even mean? How is this even possible unless they work with some kind of hive mind or general consensus? It seems along the lines of people calling out "good Muslims" for not "rejecting bad Muslims"...aren't the people just doing their opwn thing and having nothing to do with the "bad element" already rejecting it?

There is a black community consisting of leaders, newspapers, radio stations, magazines, community boards, etc. This is who I believe should speak out against Sharpton and the false outrage police. They obviously don't have one general consensus or stream of conciousness, sorry if my post above insinuated that.

[TheMojoPin]

There is a black community consisting of leaders, newspapers, radio stations, magazines, community boards, etc. This is who I believe should speak out against Sharpton and the false outrage police. They obviously don't have one general consensus or stream of conciousness, sorry if my post above insinuated that.

But agan, what about those parts of the "Community" that just have nothing to do with him? Why should they waste their time and resources dealing with him instead of doing things that are actually productive? What would even be the point in "taking down" Sharpton? Odds are someone else equally sensational would be propped up into the same role by the media...when would the cycle end?

[foodcourtdruide]

But agan, what about those parts of the "Community" that just have nothing to do with him? Why should they waste their time and resources dealing with him instead of doing things that are actually productive? What would even be the point in "taking down" Sharpton? Odds are someone else equally sensational would be propped up into the same role by the media...when would the cycle end?

Those parts of the "community" that have nothing to do with him are not the ones supporting him to begin with. I see where you're going with this though; the media just needs a talking head for there shows. They just need a black person that is outraged and if Sharpton is gone, then someone else will happily fill the void. I agree to an extent, but I think Sharpton has some very REAL power too. He is able to mobilize, fundraise, etc. THAT is what I fault the black "community" for.

[TheMojoPin]

Those parts of the "community" that have nothing to do with him are not the ones supporting him to begin with. I see where you're going with this though; the media just needs a talking head for there shows. They just need a black person that is outraged and if Sharpton is gone, then someone else will happily fill the void. I agree to an extent, but I think Sharpton has some very REAL power too. He is able to mobilize, fundraise, etc. THAT is what I fault the black "community" for.

Fine, but those parts of the "community" aren't going to turn on him. Since they're not actually reflective of all or even most of the influential black people out there, it doesn't really bug me. Sharpton is just one of too many talking heads/pundits that gets too much attention from people because they make a scene and throw tantrums. I don't really see him as being any "worse" than the rest of that ilk, nor is he any kind of real "threat" in the grand scheme of things. People have to choose to respond or react to him or even give him air/face time. Those people who do that have much more control in terms of "stopping" Sharpton than expecting members of his own circle to do it, or expecting black people that have nothing to do with him already to go out of their way to do something.

[foodcourtdruide]

Fine, but those parts of the "community" aren't going to turn on him. Since they're not actually reflective of all or even most of the influential black people out there, it doesn't really bug me. Sharpton is just one of too many talking heads/pundits that gets too much attention from people because they make a scene and throw tantrums. I don't really see him as being any "worse" than the rest of that ilk, nor is he any kind of real "threat" in the grand scheme of things. People have to choose to respond or react to him or even give him air/face time. Those people who do that have much more control in terms of "stopping" Sharpton than expecting members of his own circle to do it, or expecting black people that have nothing to do with him already to go out of their way to do something.

Who would you say are some of the most influential black people? I'm not being combative, just curious.

I don't think the media will act responsibly at all. I saw the movie Network recently and it's amazing how prophetic that movie was. I see more hope in grassroots efforts.

I disagree with you that Sharpton isn't a real threat in the grand scheme of things, at least as far as public opinion goes. The police shooting discussed in this thread is a prime example of this. Speaking out against this shooting was pointless and overreactionary. Don't you think this will effect the public's reaction to potentially REAL police brutality?

[TheMojoPin]

Who would you say are some of the most influential black people? I'm not being combative, just curious.

Certain authors and professors, entertainers and entertainment industry moguls, business leaders, community and civic activists...pretty much across the board. And when I say "influential," I mean on a very broad scale. Sharpton and other idealogues exist in very limited and narrow groupings of people. He talks a big game, but the number of people that actually "follow" him is very small. My overall point is that expecting most of the "black community" to rally around a single person or group of small people simply isn't going to happen. MLK, jr., was the exception, not the rule.

I don't think the media will act responsibly at all. I saw the movie Network recently and it's amazing how prophetic that movie was. I see more hope in grassroots efforts.

Agreed, but we shouldn't then shift the problems created my the media onto people who have nothing to do with it.

I disagree with you that Sharpton isn't a real threat in the grand scheme of things, at least as far as public opinion goes. The police shooting discussed in this thread is a prime example of this. Speaking out against this shooting was pointless and overreactionary. Don't you think this will effect the public's reaction to potentially REAL police brutality?

I think "real" brutality, if caught or exposed, isn't jusat going to be ignored because of Sharpton's big mouth. The people that tend to side with the police on brutality issues likely would do so anyway...Sharpton just makes an easy focal point for their feelings. If he's gone, I don't see it changing much.

[epo]

Is there anything more tiresome than listen to people turn blame in a situation to Al Sharpton?

Seriously folks, he wouldn't be necessary if society would cool it with the racist bullshit.

[sailor]

Is there anything more tiresome than listen to people turn blame in a situation to Al Sharpton?

Seriously folks, he wouldn't be necessary if society would cool it with the racist bullshit.

i'd say he's not necessary now and contributes to the racist bullshit. opinions vary.

[epo]

i'd say he's not necessary now and contributes to the racist bullshit. opinions vary.

The view that he is "contributing" to the bullshit would be because of the nature of today's political landscape. Anybody who gives an opposing point of view to the status quo is immediately smeared.

I'm not saying that I like everything the guy does, but seriously, if Al Sharpton's at your doorstep you are probably an asshat.

[sailor]

The view that he is "contributing" to the bullshit would be because of the nature of today's political landscape. Anybody who gives an opposing point of view to the status quo is immediately smeared.

I'm not saying that I like everything the guy does, but seriously, if Al Sharpton's at your doorstep you are probably an asshat.

no, that view is based on his words and actions. i don't see how he is smeared at all. the media speaks of him glowingly, for the most part, unless you get into "shock" radio shows.

[TheMojoPin]

the media speaks of him glowingly, for the most part

Please provide examples.

[sailor]

Please provide examples.

i don't have examples, i'm not some media expert. i'm just a regular guy. every time i see sharpton protesting on the news, nothing disparaging is said of him. it's presented straight-up like he's a leader of "the black community." he's in no way smeared for being in opposition to the status quo.

[epo]

no, that view is based on his words and actions. i don't see how he is smeared at all. the media speaks of him glowingly, for the most part, unless you get into "shock" radio shows.

That is the funniest thing I have read all day. People shit on Rev. Sharpton all of the time, as it's a major portion of fighting in today's landscape when you are in the shit.

Hell, I went to YouTube and this was the first video I found and it's a perfect example of people shitting on Al.

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/2O9Q_uHFU44&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/2O9Q_uHFU44&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

At the 4:45 mark McGuirk digs on Al, when the topic is not Al at all. The hosts of the show sit in silence, hence condoning the smear. A second smear happens at 7:30. This happens all of the time.

[TheMojoPin]

i don't have examples, i'm not some media expert. i'm just a regular guy. every time i see sharpton protesting on the news, nothing disparaging is said of him. it's presented straight-up like he's a leader of "the black community." he's in no way smeared for being in opposition to the status quo.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Pundits have a field day with him. Are you expecting non-pundit newscasters to editorialize on their stories?

Though I do actualy agree with you to a degree...like I said, the real reason Sharpton has any "power" is due to the coverage given to him by the media. Sharpton makes a good story because he's a personality and gets people riled up when they do stories about him. Even the conservative pundits don't really "go after" him like they do with others because he gets people watching their shows.

And why should someone be "smeared for being in opposition to the status quo?"

[sailor]

Anybody who gives an opposing point of view to the status quo is immediately smeared.

And why should someone be "smeared for being in opposition to the status quo?"


it was just a response to epo's words.

[TheMojoPin]

it was just a response to epo's words.

Gotcha.