If a 5th president were added to Mt. Rushmore, who would you pick?

[TheMojoPin]

I'm basing this out of a discussion I had in a recent history class, so I'm curious to see who people here would pick and why since we span some pretty wide demographics.

NOW DANCE FOR ME, MY PRETTIES.

[IrishAlkey]

Clinton's dick.

[DarkHippie]

FDR cause he's the best of what's left

[mikeyboy]

http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/twentieth_century_fox/independence_day/_group_photos/bill_pullman6.jpg

No other President in American history ever had to kick alien ass.

[Hottub]

http://flakmag.com/opinion/images/reagan1.jpg


:surrender:

[ChrisTheCop]

FDR or Reagan. Theres room on Washington's chest for both.

[ralphbxny]

Mikey Boy!!

[ffej1621]

Definately FDR

There hasnt been a Great president since him

[underdog]

George Bush Jr.

[DonInNC]

Yeah, FDR or maybe Kennedy. .

[ChrisTheCop]

Yeah, FDR or maybe Kennedy. .

Kennedy? He didnt even serve out his full term. Slacker.

[MadMatt]

I'm with the FDR contingent. Love him or hate him, FDR had a profound and historical impact on the US and office of the President. Among a myriad of things, his Presidency Pulled the US out of the depression, won WWII, created the Social Security system, and influenced the function of the Federal Government in the daily life of all Americans. Plus FDR was the only 4 term President we ever had, or will ever have - unless the structure of the US government changes.

If you want to talk about overall impact as President, you don't need to go much farther than FDR.

[Tenbatsuzen]

FDR, Kennedy, or Reagan. I lean more towards Reagan because that's what I knew, but FDR is probably a much better choice. Kennedy is like the Thurman Munson of presidents.

[ChrisTheCop]

If you want to talk about overall impact as President, you don't need to go much farther than FDR.

The Harlem River Drive then?

[cupcakelove]

FDR, no contest. I don't understand why half this country thinks Reagan is so great.

[MadMatt]

The Harlem River Drive then?

Hardy-har!

:lol:

[DonInNC]

Kennedy? He didnt even serve out his full term. Slacker.

I was thinking his head after the assassination. That would be really easy for the sculptor- just blow up some rocks.

[TheMojoPin]

George Bush Jr.

There's no such person.

I really don't know who I would pick, if any. FDR kind of leads the way by default, though it's hard to estimate how well his policies would have succeeded without the buildup of WW2. Most of his initial New Deal programs ended up failing miserably in the long and short run.

I do know his cousin has no business being up there.

[ChrisTheCop]

The Hardy-Harlem River Drive?

[HBox]

FDR. I don't think anyone else is even close..

[TheMojoPin]

FDR, no contest. I don't understand why half this country thinks Reagan is so great.

Good hair, comforted them when he spoke. The other "half" got their Reagan with Clinton.

[cupcakelove]

Good hair, comforted them when he spoke. The other "half" got their Reagan with Clinton.

Funny, I never considered lying about a blow job to be in the same category as selling weapons to Iran to fund a secret war, but whatever you say.

[ChrisTheCop]

theres plenty of places on this board to discuss why clinton sucked as hard as he got sucked.
this is a place for honoring the good ones...in Granite.

[Fezticle98]

FDR.

Andrew Jackson is so close. He was a badass.

[Hottub]

If not for the war machine, even more of FDR's ideas would have flopped.

[TheMojoPin]

Funny, I never considered lying about a blow job to be in the same category as selling weapons to Iran to fund a secret war, but whatever you say.

My basic point is that both guys ultimately accomplished little and aren't that impressive yet are propped up by cults of personality on either side of the political spectrum mainly because they said all the things people wanted to hear.

[patsopinion]

Eisenhower
im pro shut the fuck up/anti military industrial complex presidents

fdr was the worst president in american history
converted the power into being a presidential oriented, paved the road for nixon, regan and bush to be what they have been.

[Ritalin]

Vaclav Havel

[TheMojoPin]

Eisenhower
im pro shut the fuck up/anti military industrial complex presidents

The bulk of his time in office is pretty nondescript (and he really set the stages for the fuck ups with Vietnam and Cuba), but that farewell address is probably the most profound and meaningful thing a president has said since WW2.

fdr was the worst president in american history
converted the power into being a presidential oriented, paved the road for nixon, regan and bush to be what they have been.

Well, he's not the worst, but he is massively overrated and misunderstood. You're right that it can be argued that he "overpowered" the presidency...and his attempted manhandling of the Supreme Court is almost criminal.

[pennington]

I do know his cousin has no business being up there.

Funny, I was going to write replace Teddy with Franklin and then throw Reagan up there. Keeps everyone happy.

[pennington]

Kennedy is like the Thurman Munson of presidents.

That is the most insightful thing I have read in a long time.

[underdog]

FDR, no contest. I don't understand why half this country thinks Reagan is so great.

Because this country is and always has been suckers for celebrities.

There's no such person.

Good point, sir. Good point.

The Junior of the two George Bushes.

[TooLowBrow]

ben franklin

[patsopinion]

ben franklin

im in

[ChrisTheCop]

ben franklin

When and if he becomes president, I'd agree.

[lleeder]

Sacajawea

[ChrisTheCop]

i gotta sack o' jaweya fo yuz right heeh.



(sorry, i was looking for the mafialife thread)

[WRESTLINGFAN]

U S Grant

[Hottub]

U S Grant

Decent General. Fairly ineffective president.

[Chigworthy]

Kennedy is like the Herman Munster of presidents.

Cause of the scarred up head thing?

[cougarjake13]

def got to go with fdr


but only by a slim margin over calvin coolidge

[booster11373]

For me it would be tough I have 2 choices FDR or IKE, I'm leaning towards Ike

[booster11373]

[QUOTE=TheMojoPin;1515035]The bulk of his time in office is pretty nondescript (and he really set the stages for the fuck ups with Vietnam and Cuba), but that farewell address is probably the most profound and meaningful thing a president has said since WW2.





Ike's time in office is being a more examined by historians as of late, his foreign policy and domestic policy are being reevaluated and some good steps were taken by his admin in the realm of civil rights

[mdr55]

Woodrow Wilson

[TheMojoPin]

Woodrow Wilson

Probably the worst possible choice.

[epo]

James K. Polk. Set an agenda, achieved it all and then quit.

Either him or President Camacho:

http://cinepinion.bravehost.com/idiocracy1.jpg

In retrospect, I'll go with Polk.

[Chigworthy]

Probably the worst possible choice.

Matter-of-factly FACED!

[IMSlacker]

I'll go with William Jefferson Clinton, first black president.

[Fezticle98]

def got to go with fdr


but only by a slim margin over calvin coolidge

I forgot about Silent Cal. He ruled.

[Turtle]

Jimmy Carter, nice contrast to the others.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Jimmy Carter, nice contrast to the others.

Carter on Mt Rushmore??? Maybe on Earth 2

[Turtle]

Carter on Mt Rushmore??? Maybe on Earth 2

The contrast would be US Presidents who did great things and one who did nothing. It was supposed to be a joke but I guess I didn’t pull it off very well

[Bulldogcakes]

If not for the war machine, even more of FDR's ideas would have flopped.

I always knew I liked you, but now I understand why.

FDR was a socialist, supreme court packing, elitist prick. Somehow, he escapes all blame for the longest depression in our nations history continuing unabated during his presidency. Longer than any other depression before in our history. His New Deal programs did little to improve the nations economic health. Big government spending projects rarely lead to any real economic growth. Look at the Great Depression, look at Japan of the early 90's, look at a zillion projects here in NYC. The latest of which is the Airtrain to Kennedy airport. Cost a zillion dollars, and nobody uses the fucking thing.

I vote for Randy Levine. Team President of the New York Yankees. I nominate him solely for his hand in firing Joe Torre. I'll build the fucking monument myself for that great service to our nation.

Other than that, I don't wait around for presidents to change my life one way or the other. Frankly, I think they're all a bunch of overrated attention whores. Anyone who wants the job should be immediately disqualified.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Sy Sperling. He's not just the president, hes also a client


http://www.sysperling.com/images/Sy-Sperling-photo-250.jpg

[Crispy123]

The last great president to serve 8 years in office: Billy muthafuckin C

[BMoses]

Probably the worst possible choice.

Wilson is looked upon fairly high among scholars and "best president" studies.

Worthy notes of his tenure:
-Creation of the federal reserve
-The fourteen points
-Entered WWI
+Paris Peace Conference
-Women voting (came about during his second term but speculated he was a closet
supporter all along.

[PapaBear]

It's in South Dakota, so I'm sure the locals wouldn't mind seeing "their President".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40139000/jpg/_40139910_heston_rifle_ap.jpg

[patsopinion]

Wilson is looked upon fairly high among scholars and "best president" studies.

Worthy notes of his tenure:
-Creation of the federal reserve
-The fourteen points
-Entered WWI
+Paris Peace Conference
-Women voting (came about during his second term but speculated he was a closet
supporter all along.

and had the best solution to ending world war forever with a practical and better balanced version of the un

[ChrisTheCop]

The last great president who should serve 8 years in Federal Prison: Billy muthafuckin C

Fixed it for ya.

[ToddEVF]

How about a barrel chested president like Taft, Arthur, or Cleveland?

[IMSlacker]

If it was 12 years ago, these guys would be my choice.

http://www.nw-radio.com/images/band_images/presidents_promo.jpg

[patsopinion]

If it was 12 years ago, these guys would be my choice.

http://www.nw-radio.com/images/band_images/presidents_promo.jpg

huh?

[ChrisTheCop]

huh?

Singers of Peaches, Lump, and....uh....

Presidents Of The Unites States of America.

[TheMojoPin]

Wilson is looked upon fairly high among scholars and "best president" studies.

Worthy notes of his tenure:
-Creation of the federal reserve
-The fourteen points
-Entered WWI
+Paris Peace Conference
-Women voting (came about during his second term but speculated he was a closet
supporter all along.

No, he's really not.

He's probably the most blatantly totalitarian, dictatorial and flat out racist president we've ever had...and when I say racist, I don't mean in that, "oh, everyone was like that back then" kind of way...I mean the "unless you're of British descent, you're complete and utter subhuman scum that deserves nothing and I don't even bother to hide despising" kind of racism. He and his white were hideous white supremecists of the ultimate scumbaggery. He officially segregated the federal government, something that hadn't been in practice since the Civil War. He hated pretty much all non-British immigrants, in part leading to the diabolical Sedition Act. His process of demobilization after WWI was non-existent, leading to social and econimic chaos amongst returning veterans and businesses and farmers in the post-war economy. His "peace efforts" after WWI were done with the idea of securing Western European and American imperialist goals around the world at the expense of almost any other nation (he was so peaceful that he immediately had American soliders fighting on two fronts in Russia after WWI, our convenient little secret Russian war that never gets talked about). He had the US invade various Latin American nations almost two dozen times during his time in office. He was incredible savage in his treatment of unions and labor reformers, having no qualms about jailing them or dispatching strikebreakers and the national guard to attack strikers and demonstrations, often leading to many deaths. He was vocally opposed to women's suffrage and essentially waited until the issue back him into a corner beofre he approved of their right to vote.

Wilson is definitely a case of "right place, right time" in terms of how his time in office has been presented, and as such that time has been incredibly whitewashed when it comes to the history taught in schools, and most serious scholars of American history fully recognize just how much downright evil shit happened under his watched. That's not to say he accomplished nothing, but the bad far outweighs the good.

[patsopinion]

Singers of Peaches, Lump, and....uh....

Presidents Of The Unites States of America.

huh?

[underdog]

If it was 12 years ago, these guys would be my choice.

http://www.nw-radio.com/images/band_images/presidents_promo.jpg

I think they have a channel dedicated to them on XM right now.

"unless you're of British descent, you're complete and utter subhuman scum that deserves nothing and I don't even bother to hide despising"

Not really seeing a problem here.

[IMSlacker]

Singers of Peaches, Lump, and....uh....

Dune Buggy!

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/mg0dkJfrPYM&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/mg0dkJfrPYM&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

[TheMojoPin]

and had the best solution to ending world war forever with a practical and better balanced version of the un

Completely revisionist and false. The League indeed suffered not having America as a member, but its design meant that its failure leading up to WW2 was all but inevitable, namely because it's focus was essentially keeping imperialist-controlled 3rd world nations firmly under the thumbs of their European and American masters.

[Uncle Fezster]

http://www.wrestlingtradingcards.com/images/1989_wwf_classic/56.jpg

[patsopinion]

Completely revisionist and false. The League indeed suffered not having America as a member, but its design meant that its failure leading up to WW2 was all but inevitable, namely because it's focus was essentially keeping imperialist-controlled 3rd world nations firmly under the thumbs of their European and American masters.


Not really seeing a problem here.

fixed it for ya underdog

[Dude!]

why do so many people say Kennedy
he was in a short time and had no major accomplishments
it was all superficial stuff like Jackie and Camelot and feel good meaninglessness
Lyndon Johnson got way more done than Kennedy and more than anyone in the last 50 years
too bad he screwed up Vietnam so bad (my uncle was there and it made him nuts)

Polk was pretty cool..put him up there

[Fezticle98]

Wilson is looked upon fairly high among scholars and "best president" studies.

Worthy notes of his tenure:
-Creation of the federal reserve
-The fourteen points
-Entered WWI
+Paris Peace Conference
-Women voting (came about during his second term but speculated he was a closet
supporter all along.

No, he's really not.


Yes, he is. Wilson, along with FDR and Theodore Roosevelt, whom you previously besmirched are all among most Top 10's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_United_States_Presidents

http://www.opinionjournal.com/hail/rankings.html

Three Presidents—George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and Franklin D. Roosevelt—are consistently ranked at the top of the lists. Usually ranked just below those three are Presidents Thomas Jefferson and Theodore Roosevelt. The remaining "top 10" ranks are often rounded out by Harry S. Truman, Dwight D. Eisenhower, John F. Kennedy, Woodrow Wilson, Andrew Jackson, and in two recent polls sponsored by the Wall Street Journal, Ronald Reagan.

You may disagree with these rankings, but you cannot lie and say that Wilson is viewed poorly by scholars.

[patsopinion]

why do so many people say Kennedy
he was in a short time and had no major accomplishments
it was all superficial stuff like Jackie and Camelot and feel good meaninglessness
Lyndon Johnson got way more done than Kennedy and more than anyone in the last 50 years
too bad he screwed up Vietnam so bad (my uncle was there and it made him nuts)

Polk was pretty cool..put him up there

dam!
polk?
out of left field on that one


the point that someone made earlier that civil construction doesn't acutally stimulate the economy is very true
but if you look back on the Mexican governments use of civil construction was not to stimulate the economy or even to make the country better, instead it was used as a tool to the the in power politicians re-elected.
like pork barrel politics but it was the total application of government.

and after 4 terms the comparison can be made between that awful governmet and fdr's administration

[epo]

dam!
polk?
out of left field on that one


I'm just happy that finally somebody else mentioned him.

[TheMojoPin]

Yes, he is. Wilson, along with FDR and Theodore Roosevelt, whom you previously besmirched are all among most Top 10's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_United_States_Presidents

http://www.opinionjournal.com/hail/rankings.html

Three Presidents—George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and Franklin D. Roosevelt—are consistently ranked at the top of the lists. Usually ranked just below those three are Presidents Thomas Jefferson and Theodore Roosevelt. The remaining "top 10" ranks are often rounded out by Harry S. Truman, Dwight D. Eisenhower, John F. Kennedy, Woodrow Wilson, Andrew Jackson, and in two recent polls sponsored by the Wall Street Journal, Ronald Reagan.

You may disagree with these rankings, but you cannot lie and say that Wilson is viewed poorly by scholars.

Fair enough. Granted, we're using Wikipedia here, so it's a little narrow in its perspectve. I find it interesting that 2 of the 3 most recent scholarly polls cited him down to 11 from the usual 6, which kind of jives a bit more with a lot of the recent articles and books that tend to view him more critically. I honestly believe that a lot of those scholars are themselves the victim of the same historical whitewash of Wilson that's been foisted on the public for a good 70 years...just because those polled are "historical scholars" does not mean that they are specifically scholars of Wilson or his era or anything along those lines, meaning that many of them are succeptable to the same distortion as the rest of us. I'd apply this concern to perceptions of FDR and Teddy Roosevelt, too. Like Wilson and Lincoln and Washington and Jefferson and Kennedy, they've been built into unrealistic icons that influence the general public perception of them fare moreso than actual history.

I think it's very telling that the president after Wilson served his 2nd term was not a another Democrat or his VP, but a Republican, Warren Harding, who won in landslide despite showing littler interest in campaigning. His running was built upon "returning America to normalcy," something the country responded to by voting him in to office in the biggest popular vote landslide in presidential election history. Does that really sound like the response of a public coming off of one of the greatest presidencies in our history? I think that election speaks volumes about Wilson and his policies.

Even Helen Keller couldn't help indulging in some hyperbole when asked about Wilson, saying that he was the "the greatest individual disappointment the world has ever known." (http://www.simonsays.com/content/book.cfm?tab=10&pid=406525&agid=2)

[Doogie]

I'm gonna go a different direction with a President and say James Madison. If Jefferson is up there for writing the Declaration of Independence, which is mainly why he is up there, then Madison should be in there for being one of the main architects of the US constitution. It was Madison's guidance and passion that caused the states to meet on Sept 11, 1786. And while the states failed to meet a quorum for this meeting they all did decide to meet the following spring and hammer out the Constitution. And as I stated before Madison was one of the main architects to bring all the states together for the Constitutional Convention. He also was the master conductor of the Bill of Rights of the US Constitution, of which 11 of 12 were passed (the 11th passed in 1992 after 202 years of voting.) He served dutifully Washington's presidency then Jefferson's as Secretary of State before finally becoming president himself.

In spite of the misguidance of military resources during the War of 1812, "Mr. Madison's War" did end a lot of the acrimony between the US and Britain lingering since the end of the American war for independence. Madison is also the ONLY US president to actually take over the role of Commander in Chief when Washington was being attacked and burned by the British. He took command of a artillery company during the rear guard action during the retreat from Washington DC. And yes, while many will cite this as his biggest blunder as president, it also unified the nation in a way that many never thought possible.

One of the failings of the US at the onset of the War of 1812 was the fact that his predecessor, Mr. Jefferson, decided to build a gunboat navy instead of ships of the line. Once the war of 1812 was concluded Mr. Madison then dispatched the new US fleet to permanently end the trepidations by the Barbary pirates and bring a period of prosperity for US commerce as a result of that scourge being silenced.

So hence that is why my vote is for President James Madison.

[TheMojoPin]

the point that someone made earlier that civil construction doesn't acutally stimulate the economy is very true
but if you look back on the Mexican governments use of civil construction was not to stimulate the economy or even to make the country better, instead it was used as a tool to the the in power politicians re-elected.
like pork barrel politics but it was the total application of government.

and after 4 terms the comparison can be made between that awful governmet and fdr's administration

Very interesting comparison. I don't think FDR was using similar policies for the same explicit ends as the Mexican governments at the time and following WW2, but I there are definitely some key similarities between the US response to the Depression under FDR and the industrialization and nationalization of the major Latin American countries in the 30's and 40's.

[TheMojoPin]

I'm gonna go a different direction with a President and say James Madison. If Jefferson is up there for writing the Declaration of Independence, which is mainly why he is up there, then Madison should be in there for being one of the main architects of the US constitution. It was Madison's guidance and passion that caused the states to meet on Sept 11, 1786. And while the states failed to meet a quorum for this meeting they all did decide to meet the following spring and hammer out the Constitution. And as I stated before Madison was one of the main architects to bring all the states together for the Constitutional Convention. He also was the master conductor of the Bill of Rights of the US Constitution, of which 11 of 12 were passed (the 11th passed in 1992 after 202 years of voting.) He served dutifully Washington's presidency then Jefferson's as Secretary of State before finally becoming president himself.

In spite of the misguidance of military resources during the War of 1812, "Mr. Madison's War" did end a lot of the acrimony between the US and Britain lingering since the end of the American war for independence. Madison is also the ONLY US president to actually take over the role of Commander in Chief when Washington was being attacked and burned by the British. He took command of a artillery company during the rear guard action during the retreat from Washington DC. And yes, while many will cite this as his biggest blunder as president, it also unified the nation in a way that many never thought possible.

One of the failings of the US at the onset of the War of 1812 was the fact that his predecessor, Mr. Jefferson, decided to build a gunboat navy instead of ships of the line. Once the war of 1812 was concluded Mr. Madison then dispatched the new US fleet to permanently end the trepidations by the Barbary pirates and bring a period of prosperity for US commerce as a result of that scourge being silenced.

So hence that is why my vote is for President James Madison.

He was actually one of my main choices in class, too. Probably the one I'd go with if I had to pick. The guy wrote a huge chunk of the Federalist Papers and was the main proponent of the idea of checks and balances.

[Dude!]

Yes, he is. Wilson, along with FDR and Theodore Roosevelt, whom you previously besmirched are all among most Top 10's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histori...tes_Presidents

http://www.opinionjournal.com/hail/rankings.html

Three Presidents—George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and Franklin D. Roosevelt—are consistently ranked at the top of the lists. Usually ranked just below those three are Presidents Thomas Jefferson and Theodore Roosevelt. The remaining "top 10" ranks are often rounded out by Harry S. Truman, Dwight D. Eisenhower, John F. Kennedy, Woodrow Wilson, Andrew Jackson, and in two recent polls sponsored by the Wall Street Journal, Ronald Reagan.

You may disagree with these rankings, but you cannot lie and say that Wilson is viewed poorly by scholars.
__________________


did you ever see the ranking of the 100 greatest albums of all time
it was complet garbage, written by so-called experts
historians have biases and tastes just like music editors do
take all rankings with a shaker of salt

i read the most comprehensive biography of WIlson and that guy above was right
Wilson was a not just a racist but a white supremisist of the KKK type
he was AOK with lynchings
he was a dreamer, but an evil dreamer
i'd even take nixon or carter over wilson

[Doogie]

See now the main question we need to ask is "are these people up on Mount Rushmore cause of their presidency?" or "are they up there for a combination of things they did before they were pres and while president too??"

[IMSlacker]

.

[Fezticle98]

Since FDR already seems a popular choice, I'm going to campaign for "Old Hickory" Andrew Jackson. He won't get any of the indian vote, but he was a kickass General and President.

-Pwned the British in the War of 1812
-Pwned the Spanish by seizing Florida (a good thing, I say)
-Repayed the federal debt for the first and only time in US history
-Strengthened the Union by keeping the hicks from South Carolina in line during the Nullification Crisis
-Pwned the dude who tried to assassinate him and beat him with a cane. The guy tried firing two pistols, both of them locked up (odds about 125,000-1).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Jackson

The trivia section alone is priceless.

[Doogie]

-Strengthened the Union by keeping the hicks from South Carolina in line during the Nullification Crisis

You gotta like the fact he put troops on all borders and was like "go ahead. Secede."

[BMoses]

Mojo, you are correct, Wilson was not a great person or President but my point was he did have some pretty popular successes during his terms.

That being said I do agree with Madison as an excellent choice and I would like to think he barely missed the cut. However I think if people got together to seriously add a president it would be someone a little more recent and probably FDR.

[Fezticle98]

did you ever see the ranking of the 100 greatest albums of all time
it was complet garbage, written by so-called experts
historians have biases and tastes just like music editors do
take all rankings with a shaker of salt

i read the most comprehensive biography of WIlson and that guy above was right
Wilson was a not just a racist but a white supremisist of the KKK type
he was AOK with lynchings
he was a dreamer, but an evil dreamer
i'd even take nixon or carter over wilson

I don't think albums vs. Presidents is a fair comparison. The Presidential rankings are taken from a scholarly perspective, whereas most album rankings are for entertainment (lists in stupid magazines). Music is art after all.

Sure, scholars certainly have biases. But the vast majority have a bias that favors Wilson (and FDR and Teddy)? They are biased in favor of a noted racist? I think it's more likely that Wilson would be ranked even higher if it was for that abhorrent trait. The fact that he is consistently ranked in the Top 10 in spite of that is a testament to what an effective President he was.

What is the scholarly bias in favor of Wilson?

[TheMojoPin]

You gotta like the fact he put troops on all borders and was like "go ahead. Secede."

Still, I'll bet his ballsiness/craziness would have been miniscule in comparison if batshit Burr had actually won at some point.

[Dude!]

.

don't think i didn't see what you wrote the first time
i let it slide

[patsopinion]

of course it would be fdr
fucking hayseeds love that shit


does anyone want to help me go all Micheal more on that hill?

[TheMojoPin]

I don't think albums vs. Presidents is a fair comparison. The Presidential rankings are taken from a scholarly perspective, whereas most album rankings are for entertainment (lists in stupid magazines). Music is art after all.

Sure, scholars certainly have biases. But the vast majority have a bias that favors Wilson (and FDR and Teddy)? They are biased in favor of a noted racist? I think it's more likely that Wilson would be ranked even higher if it was for that abhorrent trait. The fact that he is consistently ranked in the Top 10 in spite of that is a testament to what an effective President he was.

What is the scholarly bias in favor of Wilson?

See my post earlier. I don't think it's a matter of bias as opposed to many of these scholars being influenced by the same historical msiconceptions as the rest of us. Very few historical scholars are experts on ALL of history...or even all aspects of American history. I'd bet good money that a lot of them are experts on certain people or groups or eras and what have you and as such are at risk to gloss over Wilson due to his icon status as opposed to actually knowing the details of his life and time in office. That's not saying that the people polled are frauds or stupid...just that they're not necessarily scholars of Wilson or that era of US history. Most historians have specific focuses and interests, most of which have little or nothing to do with Woodrow Wilson.

[tele7]

Good hair, comforted them when he spoke. The other "half" got their Reagan with Clinton.

http://www.worth1000.com/entries/14000/14087_w.jpg

[ChrisTheCop]

See now the main question we need to ask is "are these people up on Mount Rushmore cause of their presidency?" or "are they up there for a combination of things they did before they were pres and while president too??"

or maybe Gutzon Borglum just started dynamiting and carving what he hoped to be a tribute to Ira and George Gershwin and Irving Berlin, and half way thru he said, "this one kinda looks like Washington. This one like teddy r, and this one...i dunno Jefferson?"

[A.J.]

How about a barrel chested president like Taft, Arthur, or Cleveland?

When we get Hillary, we can make it a barrel-assed President.

Put me down for Ol' Hickory or Mr. Madison.

[topless_mike]

i'd say either reagan or fdr.

[IMSlacker]

don't think i didn't see what you wrote the first time
i let it slide

Thanks! I really have problem with not reading posts completly before replying. I'm just glad I was able to delete my stupid post before someone quoted it.

[Ritalin]

How about we announce that we're going to put the next president up there? Provide a little incentive and jack up expectations. Light a fire under their asses.

[foodcourtdruide]

I can't believe people are saying Reagan. It's easily FDR. He bought us out of the Great Depression by instilling hardcore social policies and was President during WWII. Besides the end of the cold war, what did Reagan do? He wasn't a terrible President, but definitely had his downpoints. The nonsense "War on Drugs", the appointment of Scalia, trickle-down economics, Iran-Contra.. I just don't see it.

[OGC]

Who wants to put up another lame president on the mountain. ?


I want the true hero, Ron Bennington to be there.

Come on Photoshop Mike, let's see what Mount Rushmore would look like with Mr Bennington up there.

[furie]

Hmm, it would have be a toss up between FDR or Reagan

[WRESTLINGFAN]

How about a barrel chested president like Taft, Arthur, or Cleveland?

Imagine carving sideburns into a mountain to look like Arthur

http://www.ndollar.addr.com/PhotosDaily/Chester_Alan_Arthur-21st_US_President.jpg

[high fly]

I always knew I liked you, but now I understand why.

FDR was a socialist, supreme court packing, elitist prick.

The fact of the matter is he was for capitalism.
While he made a threatr regarding the S.C., he did not follow through, so your second point is also false.

Somehow, he escapes all blame for the longest depression in our nations history continuing unabated during his presidency. Longer than any other depression before in our history.

That is because he did not cause the Great Depression.

His New Deal programs did little to improve the nations economic health. Big government spending projects rarely lead to any real economic growth.

The fact of the matter is they worked tremendously well, especially in the South.
The New Deal dramatically improved lives by providing jobs building the TVA which provided energy for individuals and businesses.
The Nerw Deal provided health care to those who had none and provided education loans.
One of my grandfathers was a veterinarian who worked on a government program to innoculate hundreds, if not thousands of herds of livestock from diseases such as hoof and mouth disease. Take that away and those farmers would havce lost everything.
The New Deal provided erosion control and other measures to prevent another Dust Bowl, again providing tons of jobs planting millions of trees.
Levees were built to lessen the effects of flooding.
Equipment loans helped farmers afford expensive tractors, combines and other machinery they could not otherwise afford, which not only boosted their productivity, but was a boon to companies manufacturing that equipment.
This all means a lot to me because I am from the Deep South and heard first-hand how the New Deal eliminated widespread malnutrition, illiteracy and poverty.
I grew up knowing many people whose lives were saved by the New Deal.

Too bad this isn't 20 years ago, otherwise, Bulldog, I would invite you to come visit some of my family farms in Arkansas and Mississippi and I would take you around showing you what needs to be seen in person, and that is the effects of New Deal projects on people's lives.
Sorry you bought into the cliche, but it's just wrong.

By the same token, by the way, the Great Society also was tremendously beneficial.
To give you one example of how these programs benefitted a real person, one of my cousins grew up on a farm waaaay out in the middle of nowhere in Arkansas.
They had electricity because of a government program.
Their cattle was innoculated thanks to the government and they had an extension service helping them, thanks to the government.
They were able to afford expensive farm machinery, thanks to the government and were thus more productive, thanks to the government.
They were able to get through droughts when all their crops were wiped out, thanks to the government.
They were able to get to school, thanks to the government.
They were able to further educate themselves by voraciously reading stacks of books delivered by the Bookmobile, again thanks to the government.
My cousin therefore was able to get financial aid to go to college thanks to the government.
This cousin was able to get a tremendous education - a master's degree from Princeton, all thanks to the government.
Take all that away and life would have been mighty miserable and my cousin would have never fulfilled her potential.

[TheMojoPin]

Y'know, something I thought of...people were comparing many of FDR's policies socially and econmically to those in Latin America detrimentally, and they have a point...but in terms of helping America through and out of the Depression, there is arguments to be made in FDR's favor. Latin America's increase of industrilization and modernization during the Depression was a stark contrast to the rest of the world.

[scottinnj]

Reagan

[TeeBone]

Reagan

Could not agree more.

[high fly]

Could not agree more.

The place to put Ronald "Dutch" Reagan on the side of a mountaian is not in America but in Iran.
After all, after they slaughtered hundreds of Americans in Lebanon, kidnapped and tortured to death others, good ol' "Dutch" rewarded them handsomely for it with thousands of antitank missiles as well as HAWK anti-aicraft missiles and top secret U.S. electronic intelligence.
He then lied repeatedly to the American people about it.

"Dutch" Reagan also not only failed to balance the budget in two years, he set new records for deficits.
Reaganomics gave us two severe recessions, one pushed unemployment into double digits.
"Dutch" Reagan's deregulation of the savings and loan industry led to a scandal that cost the American people over $100 billion.
With the arms-for hostages deal and Iran/Contra, "Dutch" Reagan not only damaged the national interest of the United States, he broke the law and set an example for lawlessness we see today in Republicans who seek to excuse it.
"Dutch" Reagan did not win the Cold War, rather communism collapsed under the weight of it's own contradictions and inability to provide goods and services to the people.
It was not "Dutch" Reagan who overthrew communism, he watched it on tv as the people of Eastern Europe rose up and threw off their oppressors.

But he did have some great heartwarming stories of "Old Hollywood."

[high fly]

The fact of the matter is he was for capitalism.
While he made a threatr regarding the S.C., he did not follow through, so your second point is also false.



That is because he did not cause the Great Depression.



The fact of the matter is they worked tremendously well, especially in the South.
The New Deal dramatically improved lives by providing jobs building the TVA which provided energy for individuals and businesses.
The Nerw Deal provided health care to those who had none and provided education loans.
One of my grandfathers was a veterinarian who worked on a government program to innoculate hundreds, if not thousands of herds of livestock from diseases such as hoof and mouth disease. Take that away and those farmers would havce lost everything.
The New Deal provided erosion control and other measures to prevent another Dust Bowl, again providing tons of jobs planting millions of trees.
Levees were built to lessen the effects of flooding.
Equipment loans helped farmers afford expensive tractors, combines and other machinery they could not otherwise afford, which not only boosted their productivity, but was a boon to companies manufacturing that equipment.
This all means a lot to me because I am from the Deep South and heard first-hand how the New Deal eliminated widespread malnutrition, illiteracy and poverty.
I grew up knowing many people whose lives were saved by the New Deal.

Too bad this isn't 20 years ago, otherwise, Bulldog, I would invite you to come visit some of my family farms in Arkansas and Mississippi and I would take you around showing you what needs to be seen in person, and that is the effects of New Deal projects on people's lives.
Sorry you bought into the cliche, but it's just wrong.

By the same token, by the way, the Great Society also was tremendously beneficial.
To give you one example of how these programs benefitted a real person, one of my cousins grew up on a farm waaaay out in the middle of nowhere in Arkansas.
They had electricity because of a government program.
Their cattle was innoculated thanks to the government and they had an extension service helping them, thanks to the government.
They were able to afford expensive farm machinery, thanks to the government and were thus more productive, thanks to the government.
They were able to get through droughts when all their crops were wiped out, thanks to the government.
They were able to get to school, thanks to the government.
They were able to further educate themselves by voraciously reading stacks of books delivered by the Bookmobile, again thanks to the government.
My cousin therefore was able to get financial aid to go to college thanks to the government.
This cousin was able to get a tremendous education - a master's degree from Princeton, all thanks to the government.
Take all that away and life would have been mighty miserable and my cousin would have never fulfilled her potential.


To add to the above, Roosevelt got us a Securities and Exchange Commission to protect investors and go after inside trading, making the stock market a better place for business.
Roosevelt also ended child labor, gave us the 40-hour work week and overtime pay.
Roosevelt gave us workplace safety laws and the right to join unions.
Roosevelt gave us the FHA to insure housing loans.
Roosevelt got people to work building infrastructure that greatly benefitted our nation, building roads, bridges, post offices, sewer systems and highways.
Roosevelt also led us to victory in World War II, dying during the Okinawa campaign.
During that war, Roosevelt kept the country united even as he drastically cut the government spending on all but the war effort.
Roosevelt did a lot to keep the Brits from going under in WW II until we could get in it and Churchill called him the greatest man he had ever known.

Franklin Roosevelt was one of our greatest presidents, easily in the top 5.

[A.J.]

During that war, Roosevelt kept the country united

Well, except for the Japanese-Americans whom he had thrown into internment camps.

[epo]

The place to put Ronald "Dutch" Reagan on the side of a mountaian is not in America but in Iran.
After all, after they slaughtered hundreds of Americans in Lebanon, kidnapped and tortured to death others, good ol' "Dutch" rewarded them handsomely for it with thousands of antitank missiles as well as HAWK anti-aicraft missiles and top secret U.S. electronic intelligence.
He then lied repeatedly to the American people about it.

"Dutch" Reagan also not only failed to balance the budget in two years, he set new records for deficits.
Reaganomics gave us two severe recessions, one pushed unemployment into double digits.
"Dutch" Reagan's deregulation of the savings and loan industry led to a scandal that cost the American people over $100 billion.
With the arms-for hostages deal and Iran/Contra, "Dutch" Reagan not only damaged the national interest of the United States, he broke the law and set an example for lawlessness we see today in Republicans who seek to excuse it.
"Dutch" Reagan did not win the Cold War, rather communism collapsed under the weight of it's own contradictions and inability to provide goods and services to the people.
It was not "Dutch" Reagan who overthrew communism, he watched it on tv as the people of Eastern Europe rose up and threw off their oppressors.

But he did have some great heartwarming stories of "Old Hollywood."

Could not agree more.

[TheMojoPin]

Well, except for the Japanese-Americans whom he had thrown into internment camps.

Yeah, that's something nobody can really argue away.

Of course, we have Lincoln up there, and he violated the Constitutional rights of American citizens probably more than any other president in our nation's history. Of course, his context was, in my opinion, a LOT more justified than some of the stuff FDR tried to pull, especially when it comes to the internment camps and his attempts to manhandle the Supreme Court. Completely inexcusable.

[jauble]

William Henry Harrison?

[TheMojoPin]

"I died in 30 days!"

[jauble]

"I died in 30 days!"

He did very little to screw up the country

[A.J.]

He did very little to screw up the country

He gave us "His Accidency": John Tyler -- the first Veep to advance to the Presidency due to the death of the President. So, in a way, Harrison showed that the rules of succession in the Constitution worked.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/John_Tyler.png

[high fly]

Yeah, that's something nobody can really argue away.

Of course, we have Lincoln up there, and he violated the Constitutional rights of American citizens probably more than any other president in our nation's history. Of course, his context was, in my opinion, a LOT more justified than some of the stuff FDR tried to pull, especially when it comes to the internment camps and his attempts to manhandle the Supreme Court. Completely inexcusable.

No one is perfect, but when we look at the entire picture, Roosevelt was a giant.
Interning the Japanese was wrong.
The deal with the Supreme Court ha been blown out or proportion by right-wingers seeking something, anything, to criticize FDR about.
The same ones usually don't seem to mind when the president we have now tries to warp our system all out of shape, deciding he doesn't have to follow the law, downloading the entire internet, listening in as millions of Americans are allegedly on the phone with bin Laden, etc.

When one looks at the list of things I gave that Franklin Delano Roosevelt did for the American people, and then look at the slim number of criticisms that followed, FDR's greatness is seen.

And hell, I didn't even put Social Security on there.

What right-wingers just can't tolerate is the government doing things to improve the daily lives of Americans, whether it is providing greater educational opportunity, better health or living conditions.

[A.J.]

Skip up to the 3:00 (or -5:20) minute mark:

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/e-cUFUL34jE&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/e-cUFUL34jE&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

[TheMojoPin]

The deal with the Supreme Court ha been blown out or proportion by right-wingers seeking something, anything, to criticize FDR about.

That's simply not true. FDR tried to extert a level of control over the Courts that nobody has even come close to before or since.

Hell, in terms of contemporary domestic and social policies, I'd put LBJ ahead of FDR.

[torker]

http://media.star-telegram.com/smedia/2007/11/17/05/834-261634-214058.embedded.prod_affiliate.58.jpg

[epo]

Ronald Reagan did get his own stub at Dickipedia, so he can't be that bad. (http://dickipedia.org/index.php?title=Ronald_Reagan)

[epo]

http://media.star-telegram.com/smedia/2007/11/17/05/834-261634-214058.embedded.prod_affiliate.58.jpg

The irony of the Ron Paul coin story (http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/13632.html)it that his nutbar fans are proving that the federal government is needed and many of Paul's ideologies are dead wrong.

Crazy people cannot perform the role of the federal reserve!

Nice work Ron Paul! Kudos!

[led37zep]

The place to put Ronald "Dutch" Reagan on the side of a mountaian is not in America but in Iran.
After all, after they slaughtered hundreds of Americans in Lebanon, kidnapped and tortured to death others, good ol' "Dutch" rewarded them handsomely for it with thousands of antitank missiles as well as HAWK anti-aicraft missiles and top secret U.S. electronic intelligence.
He then lied repeatedly to the American people about it.

"Dutch" Reagan also not only failed to balance the budget in two years, he set new records for deficits.
Reaganomics gave us two severe recessions, one pushed unemployment into double digits.
"Dutch" Reagan's deregulation of the savings and loan industry led to a scandal that cost the American people over $100 billion.
With the arms-for hostages deal and Iran/Contra, "Dutch" Reagan not only damaged the national interest of the United States, he broke the law and set an example for lawlessness we see today in Republicans who seek to excuse it.
"Dutch" Reagan did not win the Cold War, rather communism collapsed under the weight of it's own contradictions and inability to provide goods and services to the people.
It was not "Dutch" Reagan who overthrew communism, he watched it on tv as the people of Eastern Europe rose up and threw off their oppressors.

But he did have some great heartwarming stories of "Old Hollywood."

I could not agree less.

http://users.adelphia.net/~thofab/mntrush.gif

[high fly]

Originally Posted by high fly
The place to put Ronald "Dutch" Reagan on the side of a mountaian is not in America but in Iran.
1) After all, after they slaughtered hundreds of Americans in Lebanon, kidnapped and tortured to death others, good ol' "Dutch" rewarded them handsomely for it with thousands of antitank missiles as well as HAWK anti-aicraft missiles and top secret U.S. electronic intelligence.
2) He then lied repeatedly to the American people about it.

3) "Dutch" Reagan also not only failed to balance the budget in two years, he set new records for deficits.
4) Reaganomics gave us two severe recessions, one pushed unemployment into double digits.
5) "Dutch" Reagan's deregulation of the savings and loan industry led to a scandal that cost the American people over $100 billion.
6) With the arms-for hostages deal and Iran/Contra, "Dutch" Reagan not only damaged the national interest of the United States, he broke the law and set an example for lawlessness we see today in Republicans who seek to excuse it.
7) "Dutch" Reagan did not win the Cold War, rather communism collapsed under the weight of it's own contradictions and inability to provide goods and services to the people.
It was not "Dutch" Reagan who overthrew communism, he watched it on tv as the people of Eastern Europe rose up and threw off their oppressors.

But he did have some great heartwarming stories of "Old Hollywood."


I could not agree less.



Which ones can you rebut?
I numbered 7 major points for ya, to make it easier.

On June 18, 1985, President Reagan said at a press conference, "America will never make concessions to terrorists - to do so would only invite more terrorism... Once we head down that path, there would be no end to it."

At that time, Iranian-backed Hezbollah had already slaughtered hundreds of Americans in truck-bomb attacks on our embassy and Marine barracks and had over a dozen Americans held hostage.
Earlier that year "Dutch" Reagan had already knuckled under and sent two shipments of 500 TOW antitank missiles each to Iran with plenty more to follow.

Reagan repeated that lie several times afterward.

[Dude!]

no one is perfect, but when we look at the entire picture, Reagan was a giant

[torker]

http://users.adelphia.net/~thofab/mntrush.gif
God bless America.

[HBox]

no one is perfect, but when we look at the entire picture, Reagan was a giant douche

I fixed that for ya.

[epo]

no one is perfect, but when we look at the entire picture, Reagan was a giant clusterfuck

Fixed it for ya.

His relationship with the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan was a giant clusterfuck that we are still dealing with.

[sailor]

That's simply not true. FDR tried to extert a level of control over the Courts that nobody has even come close to before or since.

Hell, in terms of contemporary domestic and social policies, I'd put LBJ ahead of FDR.

you right wing nut.

[meanmrbill]

Funny, I never considered lying about a blow job to be in the same category as selling weapons to Iran to fund a secret war, but whatever you say.

Exactly.

[Bulldogcakes]

Well, except for the Japanese-Americans whom he had thrown into internment camps.

How about the SS Saint Louis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_St._Louis)? A ship filled with Jewish holocost refugees that he refused to let dock in New York? Hundreds of which died as result?

Elitist scumbag.

[Bulldogcakes]

When one looks at the list of things I gave that Franklin Delano Roosevelt did for the American people, and then look at the slim number of criticisms that followed, FDR's greatness is seen.

And hell, I didn't even put Social Security on there.

What right-wingers just can't tolerate is the government doing things to improve the daily lives of Americans, whether it is providing greater educational opportunity, better health or living conditions.

As always, there are more than one way to look at things. I'm sure you and your family are very proud of the handouts you've extracted from the US Taxpayer over the generations. My family always considered those handouts to be shameful for any able bodied person. My grandparents showed up here during the Depression and sold fruit on street corners and sewed clothing till their fingers bled. And they rose out of poverty, raised their children, bought property and lived decent lives. All without any government handouts. But they understood that money has to be worked for by someone. A Government handout is someone else's sweat being spent, taken from them whether they like it or not. And they never blamed anyone else for their problems.

[lleeder]

I like how this thread started out very relaxed and fun and now its no holds barred political bashfest. Well played Mojo, well played.

[Bulldogcakes]

I like how this thread started out very relaxed and fun and now its no holds barred political bashfest. Well played Mojo, well played.

I don't see how this is Mojo's fault. Its kind of hard to talk about which president you like and why without getting into the politics behind it.

[scottinnj]

The place to put Ronald "Dutch" Reagan on the side of a mountaian is not in America but in Iran.
After all, after they slaughtered hundreds of Americans in Lebanon, kidnapped and tortured to death others, good ol' "Dutch" rewarded them handsomely for it with thousands of antitank missiles as well as HAWK anti-aicraft missiles and top secret U.S. electronic intelligence.
He then lied repeatedly to the American people about it.

"Dutch" Reagan also not only failed to balance the budget in two years, he set new records for deficits.
Reaganomics gave us two severe recessions, one pushed unemployment into double digits.
"Dutch" Reagan's deregulation of the savings and loan industry led to a scandal that cost the American people over $100 billion.
With the arms-for hostages deal and Iran/Contra, "Dutch" Reagan not only damaged the national interest of the United States, he broke the law and set an example for lawlessness we see today in Republicans who seek to excuse it.
"Dutch" Reagan did not win the Cold War, rather communism collapsed under the weight of it's own contradictions and inability to provide goods and services to the people.
It was not "Dutch" Reagan who overthrew communism, he watched it on tv as the people of Eastern Europe rose up and threw off their oppressors.

But he did have some great heartwarming stories of "Old Hollywood."



Lies. All lies I say.

[lleeder]

I don't see how this is Mojo's fault. Its kind of hard to talk about which president you like and why without getting into the politics behind it.

He knew where this was headed...he knew.

[torker]

Funny, I never considered lying about a blow job to be in the same category as selling weapons to Iran to fund a secret war, but whatever you say.

I think it's the rim job that left a bad taste in peoples' mouths.

[SniperDudeMJS]

FDR, no contest. I don't understand why half this country thinks Reagan is so great.

The late 1970s was the closest thing to the Great Depression since the Great Depression, itself, and Ronald Reagan defied the conventional media and conventional politicians by promising to reverse it and then actually made good on those promises. That puts him right up there with FDR.

[SniperDudeMJS]

Vaclav Havel

Should I be embarrassed that I know who you're talking about?

[SniperDudeMJS]

He gave us "His Accidency": John Tyler -- the first Veep to advance to the Presidency due to the death of the President. So, in a way, Harrison showed that the rules of succession in the Constitution worked.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/John_Tyler.png

Anybody else think Pres. John Tyler looks a little like Tom Petty?

[SniperDudeMJS]

Which ones can you rebut?
I numbered 7 major points for ya, to make it easier.

On June 18, 1985, President Reagan said at a press conference, "America will never make concessions to terrorists - to do so would only invite more terrorism... Once we head down that path, there would be no end to it."

At that time, Iranian-backed Hezbollah had already slaughtered hundreds of Americans in truck-bomb attacks on our embassy and Marine barracks and had over a dozen Americans held hostage.
Earlier that year "Dutch" Reagan had already knuckled under and sent two shipments of 500 TOW antitank missiles each to Iran with plenty more to follow.

Reagan repeated that lie several times afterward.


3) Deficits: Invented by Lyndon Johnson (The Great Society Programs of the 1960s.) There were record-setting deficits under Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush etc because the deficits keep climbing every year. There will be record-setting deficits under the next president, too. Under Reagan, the Democrat-controlled congress refused to enact Reagan's spending reductions.

4) Reagan's 'severe' recessions: The Longest Peacetime economic expansion in the nation's history (at that time.)

5) Savings and Loan Scandal: The Keating Five were, with one exception, democrats. The congress, and the congressional committees that oversaw the Savings and Loan industry at the time, still controlled by democrats. (Republicans did not become the majority party until 1994.)

7) It's true that Ronald Reagan didn't win the Cold War. The policies he espoused, much of them created by Pres. Dwight D. Eisenhower, were instrumental in that victory. Modern-day democrats (1965-to-present) opposed most of those policies.

[led37zep]

3) Deficits: Invented by Lyndon Johnson (The Great Society Programs of the 1960s.) There were record-setting deficits under Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush etc because the deficits keep climbing every year. There will be record-setting deficits under the next president, too. Under Reagan, the Democrat-controlled congress refused to enact Reagan's spending reductions.

4) Reagan's 'severe' recessions: The Longest Peacetime economic expansion in the nation's history (at that time.)

5) Savings and Loan Scandal: The Keating Five were, with one exception, democrats. The congress, and the congressional committees that oversaw the Savings and Loan industry at the time, still controlled by democrats. (Republicans did not become the majority party until 1994.)

7) It's true that Ronald Reagan didn't win the Cold War. The policies he espoused, much of them created by Pres. Dwight D. Eisenhower, were instrumental in that victory. Modern-day democrats (1965-to-present) opposed most of those policies.

I like you...hell you can fuck my sister!
http://cu39.s9.xrea.com/images/20030718_1.jpg

[scottinnj]

fdr was the worst president in american history


No way. Not a big FDR fan, but IMO not the worst president. Andrew Jackson shutting down the Federal Reserve and putting America into its first depression has to be the leading candidate for worst prez ever.

[TeeBone]

The place to put Ronald "Dutch" Reagan on the side of a mountaian is not in America but in Iran.

...oh how revisionist 'historians' love to do this to Reagan. It's sad, very sad.

[Dude!]

No way. Not a big FDR fan, but IMO not the worst president. Andrew Jackson shutting down the Federal Reserve and putting America into its first depression has to be the leading candidate for worst prez ever.

and what he did to the american indians rivals slavery as a blight on our history

[TheMojoPin]

...oh how revisionist 'historians' love to do this to Reagan. It's sad, very sad.

So Iran-Contra was all just a figment of our imaginations?

It really is uncanny how similar Clinton and Reagan are. Their supporters always want to gloss of the serious screw-ups and miscalculations that occured because of them or under their watch just because they liked how they made them feel.

[led37zep]

So Iran-Contra was all just a figment of our imaginations?

It really is uncanny how similar Clinton and Reagan are. Their supporters always want to gloss of the serious screw-ups and miscalculations that occured because of them or under their watch just because they liked how they made them feel.

Reagan is the gold standard within the GOP, I don't think Clinton has reached that same level within the Democrats, nor do I think that will ever happen.

[ChimneyFish]

I cast my vote for President Lindberg.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c217/luxa1/fifthelement25.jpg


















But seriously, folks........

I would go with Eisenhower.
All things aside, it's not like the four that are up there are without their faults.

[A.J.]

no one is perfect, but when we look at the entire picture, Reagan was a giant

His relationship with the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan was a giant clusterfuck that we are still dealing with.

Ummm...that began under Carter.

[A.J.]

No way. Not a big FDR fan, but IMO not the worst president. Andrew Jackson shutting down the Federal Reserve and putting America into its first depression has to be the leading candidate for worst prez ever.

Buchanan probably is the worst. States LEFT THE UNION under his watch and he was impotent to do anything about it or to even care.

Harding is a close 2nd. Impotent as a President...verile as an adulterer.

[HBox]

Reagan is the gold standard within the GOP, I don't think Clinton has reached that same level within the Democrats, nor do I think that will ever happen.

All that does is reflect poorly on the GOP.

[led37zep]

All that does is reflect poorly on the GOP.

Nah.

[TeeBone]

So Iran-Contra was all just a figment of our imaginations?.

Iran-Contra; A screw-up?
or
Win-Win?
(I tried to use small words so you can understand, MojoPin)

[SniperDudeMJS]

But seriously, folks........

I would go with Eisenhower.
All things aside, it's not like the four that are up there are without their faults.

I might have to agree with ChimneyFish on this one. If not Reagan, definitely Ike.

[high fly]

How about the SS Saint Louis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_St._Louis)? A ship filled with Jewish holocost refugees that he refused to let dock in New York? Hundreds of which died as result?

Elitist scumbag.

According to the chart accompanying the article on the jewish virtual libray, the ship din't come within a thousand miles of New York.
http://http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/stlouis.html

You think they should have tried to swim for it?

[high fly]

Funny, I never considered lying about a blow job to be in the same category as selling weapons to Iran to fund a secret war, but whatever you say.

It wasn't just selling weapons to a country which ordered the murder of hundreds of Americans.
Ronald "Dutch" Reagan also provided them with top secret electronic intelligence which revealed our capabilities and limitations in that area.
Additionally, selling those weapons was done so illegally.
And making it worse was those weapons sales made the business of kidnapping, torturing and murdering Americans a demonstrably profitable enterprise.


Replying to a question about the Al Shiraa story breaking the arms-for-hostages deal, President Reagan said the story "has no foundation," and said, "We will never pay off terrorists because that only encourages more of it."
- Ronald "Dutch" Reagan, November 6, 1986, 2 weeks before he admitted to doing exactly that.