Film Noir v. Westerns

[LiddyRules]

Classic, old American genres with a few gems in between hundreds of copies that arguably had their heyday in the late 1930s-early 1950s. Which do you prefer? And it has to go with the original B+W classics, no "newer" noir, no spaghetti westerns (thus no Good, Bad and the Ugly), no modern westerns.

[TheMojoPin]

Jesus, why not ask me to pick between chopping off my right or left leg?

If it's "classics" only, then I gotta go with film noir. If he can include westerns made that aren't "modern" but were made after the spaghetti westerns, my vote changes.

[Sheeplovr]

this is hard
its personal
you cant choose over all
this is insane in what we call the membrain

[thepaulo]

why does my head hurt?

[hedges]

These films came to mind for comparison:
Film Noir: The Maltese Falcon
Casablanca
The Night of the Hunter
Westerns: Stagecoach
High Noon
The Searchers

Based on my encyclopediac knowledge of old films, I gotta go with film noir...:unsure:

[sailor]

what if you like treasure of the sierra madre?

[hedges]

Damn! Good film...I don't know what it would be.

[EliSnow]

I agree with many of the reasons Mojo stated. I think the best noir occurred before the 1970's, whereas some (not all) of the best westerns have occurred since that time.

[EliSnow]

what if you like treasure of the sierra madre?

I'm leaning more towards western than noir. The reason may be arguable but I think noir has to have some sort of sexual underpinnings to it. There's got to be a femme fatale or some female that the protagonist is drawn to, but who isn't the best for him or who gets him in further murky situations, etc. This movie doesn't have that sexual underpinning.

Can anyone name a good noir film that doesn't have that?

[hedges]

Is "Asphalt Jungle" considered film noir?

[EliSnow]

Is "Asphalt Jungle" considered film noir?

While they aren't the extreme authority on these things, both IMDB and Wikipedia list it as film noir.

So do the following lists of Best Noir:

List 1 (http://www.ericenders.com/noir25.htm)

List 2 (http://www.greencine.com/central/top50/filmnoir)

So yes, it appears to be.

[hedges]

The reason may be arguable but I think noir has to have some sort of sexual underpinnings to it. There's got to be a femme fatale or some female that the protagonist is drawn to, but who isn't the best for him or who gets him in further murky situations, etc.

Never really thought about it, but it does seem to fit.

[EliSnow]

Never really thought about it, but it does seem to fit.

I think it's a big part of noir, and why the best noir is from the '30's, '40's and '50s. At that time, extramarital sex was considered really bad, but at the same time was titittliting. So you have these protagonists who are drawn sexually to these women (who, because they are willing to have sex even though they are single or married to another, are bad), and thus are involved in questionable behavior, and thus, they themselves aren't good (completely).

In the last three decades, extramarital sex doesn't have the same taboo quality to it that it did back then. So, the film noir now doesn't have the same impact that it did before.

[ralphbxny]

Such a great question...but if I had to choose and no spagetti westerns its Film noir....and sierra madre is film noir cause I need that on my list!!

[TheMojoPin]

Film Noir is nothing without sex.

[thepaulo]

Film Noir and Westerns have one thing in common.....One man's struggle to rise above inmorality and violence....even just a little bit....there are always choices to be made...sides to chose....woman aren't always the source of the conflict...sometimes they're just victims in the midst of the macho madness

[TheMojoPin]

Film Noir and Westerns have one thing in common.....One man's struggle to rise above inmorality and violence....even just a little bit....there are always choices to be made...sides to chose....woman aren't always the source of the conflict...sometimes they're just victims in the midst of the macho madness

You could very easily argue that you can't have "true" film noir WITHOUT a woman either at the center of or as the source of the main conflict. Like Eli's been pointing out, sexuality, especially the forvidden or dangerous kind, is typically one of the driving forces of film noir. I agree with your viewpoint towards westerns...it's an overwhelmingly male-centric genre, and many of the women characters are simply very basic plot points or just shoehorned in so there can be a "romantic interest."

I'd also argue that the best western films and film noir flicks challenge the audience with a much murkier sense of morality than just a character "rising above immorality and violence."

[high fly]

I recently stayed at a Best Western while on vacation in Maine.
It was neat, clean and competitively priced.
They have a shot at my business in the future.

My fave western movie is The Good, the Bad and the Ugly.
Put that one in one movie theater and any other western in a theater next door and I'm gonna watch The Good, the Bad and the Ugly every time......

[EliSnow]

You could very easily argue that you can't have "true" film noir WITHOUT a woman either at the center of or as the source of the main conflict. Like Eli's been pointing out, sexuality, especially the forvidden or dangerous kind, is typically one of the driving forces of film noir. I agree with your viewpoint towards westerns...it's an overwhelmingly male-centric genre, and many of the women characters are simply very basic plot points or just shoehorned in so there can be a "romantic interest."

I'd also argue that the best western films and film noir flicks challenge the audience with a much murkier sense of morality than just a character "rising above immorality and violence."

Let's just look at the role of sex/women in some of the best noir and westerns:

Noir
Double Indemnity/Body Heat - I've grouped these two films together because they have the same/similar premise. Average, not-too-bright guys are seduced by femme fatales into killing the women's husbands. Double Indemnity is one of the first movies I think of when I think noir.

Big Sleep - Story is very complicated, but you have two daughters, neither "good girls" who come on to hero Bogart (one tries to sit in Bogart's lap while he's standing, and the other, Bacall, talks about horses the same way that Prince talked about a little red corvette.) Either girl may have murdered someone.

Maltese Falcon - Sam Spade and his partner get a new female client, who is more than she appears to be. Later, we see Sapde's partner killed and find out that Spade is having an affair with the wife of his partner.

Laura - Detective investigating death of woman falls in love with dead woman.

Chinatown - Sister. Daughter. Sister. Daughter. Need I say more?


With Westerns, I think more often than not, the female role is that of a victim, someone to be saved or someone who is getting in the way of the man doing what he needs to do. The more important relationships appear to be between men.

Westerns

High Noon - Newly married sherriff is threatened by men he put away. His wife, and the whole town, wants him to run away.

Red River - One woman is killed by indians. The other female character is later saved from Indians. Movie is well known for an alleged homoerotic exchange than any heterosexual discussion. Also, story's main relationship is between John Wayne and his adopted son.

Shane - Shane is uncomfortably drawn to the wife of the family he's trying to save. However, he saves the woman's husband fro having to take on a killer, and gets hurt, maybe even fatally as a result. In a noir flick, he may have let the husband get killed first. Also, the most important relationship is between the family son, and Shane.

The Good, The Bad and The Ugly - I forget. Were there any women in this movie?

The Searchers - Racist, an probable outlaw Wayne is searching to recover his nieces from indians, and threatens to kill the nieces if they become squaws.

Now, you can probably find some noir flicks that aren't as sexual, and some westerns that have the sexual aspect. But I think the trends in these movies stick pretty well for each genre.