2008 New York Yankees Thread

[Bulldogcakes]

You are not taking in effect the fact that the Sox will do everything they can to make sure the Yanks do not get him, or if they do, will have to pay a heavy price for him.

I dont think the Bosox are that serious about him. You don't go overboard to put a left hander in Fenway park, you do in Yankee stadium. Throw in the salary demands (as I said earlier) plus the other available pitchers and I don't think the market for his services is not going to be as hot as some believe. 25 mil per year blows up most budgets for most teams, plus add the salary tax and its adding over 30 mil for a PITCHER. Most teams won't do that.

Kennedy, Melky, Austin Jackson. I'm also going to try like hell to substitute Brett Gardner for Austin Jackson. He's closer to the bigs, as fast as Jose Reyes with an excellent OBP and range in CF. Wheras Melky is a better fielder in a corner OF spot. Gardner could be the Twins CF/leadoff hitter for the next 10 years. Jackson figures into the Yankee plans in 09, when Damon will be finished as a CF, if he isn't already.

I will try like hell, but won't let that be deal breaker. The Yanks could use Garnder as a 4th OF this year, and will very likely need him given Damon, Matsui and Abreu all got hurt last year.

[TheMojoPin]

Kennedy, Melky, Austin Jackson. I'm also going to try like hell to substitute Brett Gardner for Austin Jackson.

Why do you keep talking like the Twins need to take this deal?

[Bulldogcakes]

Onley reported that Gammons keeps hearing that from the TWINS side, not the Yankee side. Thats not a Yankee wish list, its a Twins proposal. You'd expect Cashman to counter with something less.

[TheMojoPin]

Onley reported that Gammons keeps hearing that from the TWINS side, not the Yankee side. Thats not a Yankee wish list, its a Twins proposal. You'd expect Cashman to counter with something less.

And there's no reason they have to take less. And there's no reason that Gammon knows anything about baseball that doesn't happen in his comfortable northeastern "backyard." The guy has his moments, but overall his day has passed and he usually comes across as waaaaaay out of the loop unless its news coming from the Yankees and Red Sox directly. It just makes little sense that the Twins would settle for a deal like that for a pitcher that good. And given that the New York media has been tossing numerous absurd rumors about this trade like the Yanks are in the driver's seat gives it even less credibility.

Granted, baseball GM's aren't immune to being idiots, but I simply don't see why the Twins would settle for that deal or a lesser variation of it unless Santanna had a NTC and limited which teams he would go to...but he doesn't.

[sailor]

the twins will never be able to extend santana, so they're really just trading one year of his services, even if the other team works out a deal with him. in 11 months they will get nothing for him.

[TheMojoPin]

the twins will never be able to extend santana, so they're really just trading one year of his services, even if the other team works out a deal with him. in 11 months they will get nothing for him.

Such a trade would likely come with a deal.

[Bulldogcakes]

And there's no reason they have to take less. And there's no reason that Gammon knows anything about baseball that doesn't happen in his comfortable northeastern "backyard." The guy has his moments, but overall his day has passed and he usually comes across as waaaaaay out of the loop unless its news coming from the Yankees and Red Sox directly. It just makes little sense that the Twins would settle for a deal like that for a pitcher that good. And given that the New York media has been tossing numerous absurd rumors about this trade like the Yanks are in the driver's seat gives it even less credibility.

Granted, baseball GM's aren't immune to being idiots, but I simply don't see why the Twins would settle for that deal or a lesser variation of it unless Santanna had a NTC and limited which teams he would go to...but he doesn't.


I know there was some dispute about this, but I think its been settled. He has a full no trade (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/11/santana-has-ful.html) Those 4 reporters include a national reporter, local NY, Boston guy, and a local Minnesota reporter. I'll assume one of them spoke to the principals involved. Cots is THE source for baseball contract info. But hey, nobody's perfect.

Plus, go back and look at the article I posted from the local Minnesota press. It says that the Twins will have trouble getting top value back for Santana because of his salary demands, which is what I'm saying.

[sailor]

Such a trade would likely come with a deal.

i understand that, but the twins don't have him signed beyond this year and cannot/will not sign him. if they press for too much teams will just wait them out till he's a free agent.

[TheMojoPin]

i understand that, but the twins don't have him signed beyond this year and cannot/will not sign him. if they press for too much teams will just wait them out till he's a free agent.

Oh, obviously, which is why I'm not saying they're going to try and clean out a team, but they can get a really, REALLY good return for what he brings to a team, and there are mutliple teams that can easily top that rumored deal in terms of player quality/quantity...plus you have to assume that getting him out of the AL is something that the Twins would definitely prefer. I think he ends up out west.

[HBox]

I think with a new park coming and the taxpayers paying for it that the Twins have more to lose by trading Santana. if they let him go in free agency they will still get two draft picks so they will not go away empty handed. The PR hit, especially for a new GM might be too big to take.

[Kevin]

Not gonna happen. The deal won't happen with the Yanks unless Joba or Hughes are involved. There's still too many teams out there that can trump that package with Kennedy instead and still give Santana the money he wants.

Your doing the Arod argument all over again.. And you are wrong again. Teams may have the money to pay him.. BUT THEY WON'T! They will not give a away 3 or 4 top prospects AND PAY 20mil a year for a pitcher.. And its not the 20mil thats scares them, it is th years he wants. Giving a pitcher any more than 4 years, is really a gamble.. I do not care who it is. Just like what happend with Arod.. No one will want to pay Santana's price. 3 teams can.. And by can i mean would want to.. Mets (No prospects that would trump the other 2) Redsox(Do not really need too) And of course The Yanks, which can and will. The Yanks won't get him cheap, but the price will be lower. If he was a FA.. There would be a lot more teams in this.. But teams do not want to give up prospects and take the 7 year gamble. If it goes wrong, you are totaly f'd because you lose the youngsters and money.. But if its just money, It hurts, but most of the owners can take the hit.

[TheGameHHH]

I refuse to trade Hughes or Austin Jackson, I'm gonna call up Cashman now and tell him we aren't even thinking of making this deal.

[Kevin]

I refuse to trade Hughes or Austin Jackson, I'm gonna call up Cashman now and tell him we aren't even thinking of making this deal.

Just make sure to tell him me and your dad, feel the same way.. He will know right away not to do it.

[Doctor Z]

This thread is boring.

[TheGameHHH]

Just make sure to tell him me and your dad, feel the same way.. He will know right away not to do it.

the two of you are brilliant men, i cant deny that. but im sure my word alone is all Cash (yea, thats what i call him, Cash) needs.

[Kevin]

This thread is boring.

So why don't you do something aboot it??

[HBox]

Just make sure to tell him me and your dad, feel the same way.. He will know right away not to do it.

Tell him to get me a calzone too while you're at it.

[Kevin]

Tell him to get me a calzone too while you're at it.

With the Yankees these days, you would have to settle for a kanish..

[Tenbatsuzen]

Tell him to get me a calzone too while you're at it.

How about a marble rye?

[Bulldogcakes]

I think with a new park coming and the taxpayers paying for it that the Twins have more to lose by trading Santana. if they let him go in free agency they will still get two draft picks so they will not go away empty handed. The PR hit, especially for a new GM might be too big to take.

Again, not clicking my silly links. Just heartbreaking.

I thought the same thing last week, but according to that article I posted on the last page, the Twins feel like they don't want to repeat the mistake they just made with Hunter. They thought they could sign Hunter, they didn't, and now they lose him to FA and get 2 draft picks instead of 2 solid, MLB ready players/prospects they could have got if the dealt him before last year or at the trade dealine. You never know how (or if) draft picks will develop, they would have to get lucky with the picks to equal what they would have got in a trade. So right there its a bad move. Plus, the players would liklely be ready to help the big league team now if they aquired them last year. Now they have to wait. Same deal with Johan. Deal him now and get as much as you can rather than wait and hope with draft picks.

If his salary demands scare off enough bidders and they cant get an offer they like, then it makes sense to keep him for next year. But I think they'll get substantial offers from both the Yanks and Mets, so thats not something I see happening.

[Kevin]

Interesting tid bit on CJ Henry, from the post.

"He came to us," scouting head Damon Oppenheimer, the man who drafted the 21-year-old Henry, who batted .184 for Lakewood (Single-A) this past summer. "He told us he wanted to play for us and asked would we want him back? We made sure he wanted to play baseball and we found out the last month of the season he was fitted for contacts and hit .300."

It would be typical Philly to give up on a guy just when he finds something.. It will be interesting to follow his progression.

[cougarjake13]

Interesting tid bit on CJ Henry, from the post.

"He came to us," scouting head Damon Oppenheimer, the man who drafted the 21-year-old Henry, who batted .184 for Lakewood (Single-A) this past summer. "He told us he wanted to play for us and asked would we want him back? We made sure he wanted to play baseball and we found out the last month of the season he was fitted for contacts and hit .300."

It would be typical Philly to give up on a guy just when he finds something.. It will be interesting to follow his progression.

so contacts was the problem ???

[HBox]

Interesting tid bit on CJ Henry, from the post.

"He came to us," scouting head Damon Oppenheimer, the man who drafted the 21-year-old Henry, who batted .184 for Lakewood (Single-A) this past summer. "He told us he wanted to play for us and asked would we want him back? We made sure he wanted to play baseball and we found out the last month of the season he was fitted for contacts and hit .300."

It would be typical Philly to give up on a guy just when he finds something.. It will be interesting to follow his progression.

I'd chalk it up to Philly bad luck more than anything. I read an article about him this summer where it said he was considering quitting baseball and play basketball. His brother is a basketball player. They probably weren't ready to commit to the guy after a season like this if they didn't even know if he wanted to play.

[Bulldogcakes]

H, A Moe sig pic and a Cubbies avatar? Did I miss something?

Edit-nevermind (http://www.ronfez.net/forums/showthread.php?t=65009)

[TheGameHHH]

From our favorite blogger, Peter Abraham:

The Yankees are talking to the Twins about Johan Santana. Team spokesman and senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner confirmed it tonight.

“I don’t want to get into that at this point, as far as what they want, what we’re willing to give and all that,” he told the AP. “It’s preliminary right now.”

So the Twins will consider making a trade?

“Oh, yeah,” Hank said.

Steinbrenner also said that Brian Cashman (remember him?) is trying to improve the bullpen.

[Don Stugots]

H, A Moe sig pic and a Cubbies avatar? Did I miss something?

yes, the rest of the board. get out of the baseball threads once in a while.

[Bulldogcakes]

yes, the rest of the board. get out of the baseball threads once in a while.

It's a disease. I can't help myself at this point.

[Kevin]

From our favorite blogger, Peter Abraham:

The Yankees are talking to the Twins about Johan Santana. Team spokesman and senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner confirmed it tonight.

“I don’t want to get into that at this point, as far as what they want, what we’re willing to give and all that,” he told the AP. “It’s preliminary right now.”

So the Twins will consider making a trade?

“Oh, yeah,” Hank said.

Steinbrenner also said that Brian Cashman (remember him?) is trying to improve the bullpen.

Who?? Cashman?? Never heard of him..

[cougarjake13]

Who?? Cashman?? Never heard of him..

i think there's some footage of him somewhere but sightings are rare




http://z.about.com/d/paranormal/1/0/s/A/patterson_bigfoot_lg.jpg

[Bulldogcakes]

Just found a little nugget on Johan.
Career Splits
(http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/psplit.cgi?n1=santajo02)

BOS-Fenway Pk ERA 6.89

NYY-Yankee Stadium ERA 1.17

I thought the Red Sox are bluffing, now I'm sure of it. THere's no way on earth they give up their best prospects AND 20+ mil per year for a guy with those numbers in Fenway

[BoondockSaint]

Maybe it's a block move.

[HBox]

Just found a little nugget on Johan.
Career Splits
(http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/psplit.cgi?n1=santajo02)

BOS-Fenway Pk ERA 6.89

NYY-Yankee Stadium ERA 1.17

I thought the Red Sox are bluffing, now I'm sure of it. THere's no way on earth they give up their best prospects AND 20+ mil per year for a guy with those numbers in Fenway

Here's a question: how much do the Yankees give up for a guy with those numbers in Fenway?

[BoondockSaint]

He's had 3 starts at Fenway. And if he's on the Red Sox he won't pitching against the Red Sox offense at Fenway. I think his ERA might come down a bit. And if he pitches so great in Yankee Stadium then wouldn't that be even more incentive for the Red Sox?

[Bulldogcakes]

Here's a question: how much do the Yankees give up for a guy with those numbers in Fenway?

Good question. I don't do Hughes or Joba.

Ian Kennedy, Melky and one or two AAA guys who don't have very high ceilings. Brett Gardner and/or a reliever.

BTW-As bad as those #s are in Fenway, they're the opposite in Yankee stadium.

2-0 1.17 ERA

[Bulldogcakes]

He's had 3 starts at Fenway. And if he's on the Red Sox he won't pitching against the Red Sox offense at Fenway. I think his ERA might come down a bit. And if he pitches so great in Yankee Stadium then wouldn't that be even more incentive for the Red Sox?

All true, but Fenway is a tough park for most lefties for obvious reasons. Especially as he gets older, and starts pitching more "to contact" it could be a bad mix.

Thats not to say he won't still be a good pitcher, its just the wrong spot for him. He won't be as good there as he will be in most other places. You generally don't sign guys who will likely underperform where you play and don't fit your typical player profile. And Theo would be nuts to give up the farm AND 20+ mil for a lefty in that ballpark.

[HBox]

Ichiro considered signing with the Yankees before re-signing with the Mariners. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071127/sp_afp/baseballusajpnmarinersichiro_071127074809)

Too bad. That would have been an upgrade over Abreu. Or it would have allowed them to keep Abreu and trade Damon. Or whatever. I would have loved to have him.

[cougarjake13]

Ichiro considered signing with the Yankees before re-signing with the Mariners. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071127/sp_afp/baseballusajpnmarinersichiro_071127074809)

Too bad. That would have been an upgrade over Abreu. Or it would have allowed them to keep Abreu and trade Damon. Or whatever. I would have loved to have him.

he was a free agent this year ???

[lleeder]

he was a free agent this year ???

He was but he signed an extension during the season. I think in like August. So I don't know how much he really considered leaving if he didn't even test free agency.

[zildjian361]

Good question. I don't do Hughes or Joba.

Ian Kennedy, Melky and one or two AAA guys who don't have very high ceilings. Brett Gardner and/or a reliever.

BTW-As bad as those #s are in Fenway, they're the opposite in Yankee stadium.

Not Melky can't break him and Cano up.

[TheGameHHH]

Not Melky can't break him and Cano up.

dont worry about Melky leaving, Austin Jackson will be Cano's new friend

[Doctor Z]

Kei Igawa & Kyle Farnsworth for Johan Santana.


Straight up.

[HBox]

Kei Igawa & Kyle Farnsworth for Johan Santana.


Straight up.

Why don't you just give the whole team away?

[Kevin]

Why don't you just give the whole team away?

I think Z might be a double Agent for the Twins...

[RingWraith]

Kei Igawa & Kyle Farnsworth for Johan Santana.


Straight up.

Maybe you should thrown in Mussina to sweetin' the deal.

[TheGameHHH]

Food for thought:

"Here’s a little quiz, baseball fans:

This pitcher was 3-2 with a 5.70 ERA against teams from the AL East last season (not counting the Yankees).

He was 5-7, 4.04 in the second half of the season, allowing 88 hits (16 of them home runs) over 98 innings. The 33 home runs he allowed for the season were nine more than in any other previous season. Scouts have noticed he appears hesitant to throw his slider.

He has one victory in five career playoff starts."

This man's name, Johan Santana. Just saying its something to think about, I'm certainly not shitting on Santana.

[Bulldogcakes]

From a Minnesota newspaper

Don't count on Twins getting maximum value in trade (http://www.startribune.com/twins/story/1574884.html)

Again, I'd be very surprised if Hughes is in the deal.

[Bulldogcakes]

Interesting interview with a Minn beat writer. (http://www.nomaas.org/twins.html)

Great interview, loaded with insights on Santana. He's a bit worried about his production being down last year. He also seems pretty certain he wants to pitch in NY. Since he has a full no trade, I stay with the offer I want to make if I'm Cashman and don't go past it. Kennedy, Melky and 2 B-prospects. Even if Smith tries to go with the Bosox offer, they'll have to pony up 25 mil per to sign him and I don't see them doing that. If they don't, Johan kills the deal. Call their bluff, Brian.

Johan probably wants to play here so much because the Yanks sent a lil' birdie out to Minn saying he'll get the most cash here. That of course, is illegal and never happens in baseball.

[Doctor Z]

The Twins don't necessarily need Melky anymore. They just picked up a young outfielder in Delman Young earlier today.

[sailor]

The Twins don't necessarily need Melky anymore. They just picked up a young outfielder in Delman Young earlier today.

the sox just offered (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3133598) crisp, lester and lowrie.

[Bulldogcakes]

The Twins don't necessarily need Melky anymore. They just picked up a young outfielder in Delman Young earlier today.

Read the article, please.


LM: How do you think the potential Garza/Young deal impacts negotiations for Johan?

JS: I think it dovetails nicely. Young would be the middle-of-the-order power hitter the Twins need to replace Torii Hunter and eventually become more of a force (if Young can mature as a hitter and a personality). The Twins' needs would then be CF, 3B, and starting pitching, which is what they would try to address in a Santana deal.

I've read elsewhere that the Twins might move Cuddyer to 3B. He's played there alot.

[Kevin]

the sox just offered (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3133598) crisp, lester and lowrie.

That offer is very homosexual...

[Bulldogcakes]

the sox just offered (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3133598) crisp, lester and lowrie.

According to this guy, they've gone even further (http://www.twincities.com/ci_7584709?source=most_viewed&nclick_check=1)

A little birdie says the Boston Red Sox have become the favorite in the Johan Santana trade sweepstakes.

The Twins would receive four players for the Twins' two-time Cy Young Award winner, including center fielder Coco Crisp, 28.

Others would be shortstop prospect Jed Lowry, 23; left-handed pitcher Jon Lester, 23; and right-handed pitcher Justin Masterson, 22.

Before a deal could be made, the Red Sox would have to have time to negotiate a contract extension with Santana, 28, who can become a free agent after next season and could have a market value as high as $150 million over six years.

Lowry did not play in the major leagues this year but is considered ready and is a good-fielding shortstop who also can hit. Lowry had a slugging percentage of .500 at Class AA and Class AAA this year.

Lester made a comeback from non-Hodgkin's lymphoma a year ago and is said to be cancer-free.

Masterson, 6 feet 6, 245 pounds, had 59 strikeouts in 58 innings at Class AA Portland.

The New York Yankees don't have the prospects available who the Twins figure have a reasonable chance to play in the major leagues by the end of 2008.

He was the only one who called the Young-Garza deal, so he has to be taken seriously. I have trouble believing they're offering this much, but if they are they can have him. He's lousy in Fenway park, I'm surprised they're offering this much.

Masterson (http://www.soxprospects.com/players/masterson-justin.htm)
Lowry (http://www.soxprospects.com/players/lowrie-jed.htm)

[Kevin]

The New York Yankees don't have the prospects available who the Twins figure have a reasonable chance to play in the major leagues by the end of 2008.

Wait what??

Kennedy or Hughes pitched last year.. and melky has been play reg.. How do they not?? Plus Yanks could Offer Horne who is highly ranked. I dont see the sox beating any Yankee offer without Bucholtz and Elsbury.

[BoondockSaint]

The New York Yankees don't have the prospects available who the Twins figure have a reasonable chance to play in the major leagues by the end of 2008.

Wait what??

Kennedy or Hughes pitched last year.. and melky has been play reg.. How do they not?? Plus Yanks could Offer Horne who is highly ranked. I dont see the sox beating any Yankee offer without Bucholtz and Elsbury.


Maybe Hughes isn't available?

[Kevin]

Maybe Hughes isn't available?

Kennedy??

And i dont want any deal involving Hughes happening..

[Bulldogcakes]

The New York Yankees don't have the prospects available who the Twins figure have a reasonable chance to play in the major leagues by the end of 2008.

Wait what??

Kennedy or Hughes pitched last year.. and melky has been play reg.. How do they not?? Plus Yanks could Offer Horne who is highly ranked. I dont see the sox beating any Yankee offer without Bucholtz and Elsbury.

I found that line suspicious too. It sounds like a deliberate attempt to get the Yanks to give up more, because that line is totally untrue.

I could see the Twins liking Lester more than Kennedy, but Melky is better and cheaper than Crisp and the other 2 guys they offered are pretty much throw ins. Which the Yanks can easily outdo.

If this gets too expensive, let the Red Sox have him. He's awful in Fenway park and coming off a bad year. Move on to plan B.

[BoondockSaint]

I found that line suspicious too. It sounds like a deliberate attempt to get the Yanks to give up more, because that line is totally untrue.

I could see the Twins liking Lester more than Kennedy, but Melky is better and cheaper than Crisp and the other 2 guys they offered are pretty much throw ins. Which the Yanks can easily outdo.

If this gets too expensive, let the Red Sox have him. He's awful in Fenway park and coming off a bad year. Move on to plan B.

Would you stop with the awfu in Fenway stuff. He's had 3 starts there.

[Bulldogcakes]

Even if the Sox work out a deal, lets see if they can sign him.

I still think they're bluffing just to drive up the price for the Yanks. The money and the fit for this pitcher just doesn't make enough sense.

[BoondockSaint]

Kennedy??

And i dont want any deal involving Hughes happening..

Exactly. They may want not want a deal without Hughes.

[Bulldogcakes]

Would you stop with the awfu in Fenway stuff. He's had 3 starts there.

I don't care if he's never pitched there. He's a left handed fly ball pitcher, and thats a bad fit in Fenway.

[Bulldogcakes]

Exactly. They may want not want a deal without Hughes.

Then we walk away. Within a few years Santana will be declining and Hughes will be entering his prime. Then this will be called "the best trade we never made".

The Sox are bluffing, anyway. BLUFFING I TELL YOU!!!!!

[TheMojoPin]

You guys do realize how easily that the Yankees' rumored deal can be trumped, right?

Please stop talking about Melky like he's anything special.

[TheGameHHH]

You guys do realize how easily that the Yankees' rumored deal can be trumped, right?

Please stop talking about Melky like he's anything special.

nobodys saying he's special, theyre saying he's better then Crisp.

[ralphbxny]

You guys do realize how easily that the Yankees' rumored deal can be trumped, right?

Please stop talking about Melky like he's anything special.

He's better than most of the outfielders in the league at 21.

[TheMojoPin]

He's better than most of the outfielders in the league at 21.

If you're saying he's one of the better outfielders only out of the ones who are currently 21, maybe I'll agree with you. Othwerwise, no, you're vastly overrating him.

[ralphbxny]

If you're saying he's one of the better outfielders only out of the ones who are currently 21, maybe I'll agree with you. Othwerwise, no, you're vastly overrating him.

Im sayin the 1st thing not the second thing. I think He is Bobby Abreu Jr. He is 280 to 300 with 20 to 25 homers 95 to 105 rbi. I think thats his role when he gets into his prime.

[TheMojoPin]

Im sayin the 1st thing not the second thing. I think He is Bobby Abreu Jr. He is 280 to 300 with 20 to 25 homers 95 to 105 rbi. I think thats his role when he gets into his prime.

Wow, that's incredibly optimistic. Just because a guy has a ceiling doesn't mean he'll make it. Most of them don't. Melky has looked serviceable so far, and that's about it.

[Kevin]

You guys do realize how easily that the Yankees' rumored deal can be trumped, right?

Please stop talking about Melky like he's anything special.

By who?? And please don't give me a list of teams.. Because they do not exist.. 3 teams can pay him. and 1 just got told your talent isn't good enough..

Once again like with Arod, as i told you.. Not many teams will pay him. Its a 2 team race.

[TheMojoPin]

By who?? And please don't give me a list of teams.. Because they do not exist.. 3 teams can pay him. and 1 just got told your talent isn't good enough..

Once again like with Arod, as i told you.. Not many teams will pay him. Its a 2 team race.

Plenty of teams "can" pay him...they pretty much all can. It's a question of will.

The "two teams" are basically doing themselves in with the incredibly shitty offers they're putting up. The Twins don't HAVE to take such relatively crappy offers. Worst comes to worse he walks and they get two good picks.

[Snoogans]

Plenty of teams "can" pay him...they pretty much all can. It's a question of will.

The "two teams" are basically doing themselves in with the incredibly shitty offers they're putting up. The Twins don't HAVE to take such relatively crappy offers. Worst comes to worse he walks and they get two good picks.

its also a question of where santana will agree to go, no trade clause and everything

[Snoogans]

according to fat mike and the retard dog, santana would prefer new york but also likes boston the dodgers and anaheim

[Kevin]

Plenty of teams "can" pay him...they pretty much all can. It's a question of will.

The "two teams" are basically doing themselves in with the incredibly shitty offers they're putting up. The Twins don't HAVE to take such relatively crappy offers. Worst comes to worse he walks and they get two good picks.

Any owner in the league "can" pay him. But only two will.

And two good picks that wont really be that good, because like everything else in baseball, the draft has become about money. They will not draft the top talents because Pollad will not pay them the bonus the want.. So the picks aren't as good as they would be for The Yanks, Sox or a few others. That is how the Yanks stocked their farm, picking in the bottom tier every year.

[TheMojoPin]

Any owner in the league "can" pay him. But only two will.

OK, for one thing, this isn't the same as ARod since they're not investing in a single player for a decade.

[Kevin]

OK, for one thing, this isn't the same as ARod since they're not investing in a single player for a decade.

6 years for a pitcher is a much bigger investment than a decade for a 3b..

[TheMojoPin]

6 years for a pitcher is a much bigger investment than a decade for a 3b..

But it's still not a decade if we're talking money-wise, which is what you were doing. If you're talking in terms of risking that much time on a pitcher, which apparently you are NOW, how are the Yankees or Red Sox any different than any other team?

In the end, I think the Yankees get him, but they're gonna give up Hughes to do it. The Red Sox are gonna up Lester to Bucholtz or Crisp to Elsbury and then the Yanks are gonna crack and offer Hughes.

[epo]

You guys do realize how easily that the Yankees' rumored deal can be trumped, right?

Please stop talking about Melky like he's anything special.

Mojo, I'm totally with you on this Melky Cabrera thing. I have no idea why Yankees fans thing he is anything special.

I'm going to go to an outside source though, as I subscribe to the annual John Sickels prospect book. Here is from his final analysis on Melky:

"The Yankees talk about Melky Cabrera like he's a top prospect, and shopped him around last summer as part of trade talks with various clubs. One scout sent to look at Cabrera at midseason told me that he would lose his peed eventually and wouldn't hit enough to compensate in other areas. His best attribute is simple youth at this point....I was somewhat optimistic about him earlier in his career, but my thinking has shifted, and at this point I really don't think he is going to amount to much. Grade = C.

[TheMojoPin]

It seems pretty obvious to me that they're trying to dump Melky because they realize the same thing. I'll be shocked if he's not moved before the season starts.

[Kevin]

But it's still not a decade if we're talking money-wise, which is what you were doing. If you're talking in terms of risking that much time on a pitcher, which apparently you are NOW, how are the Yankees or Red Sox any different than any other team?

In the end, I think the Yankees get him, but they're gonna give up Hughes to do it. The Red Sox are gonna up Lester to Bucholtz or Crisp to Elsbury and then the Yanks are gonna crack and offer Hughes.

If you combine the frailness of a SP vs an everyday player.. Then getting Arod for "just money" And getting Johan for 2 3 or 4 top to good prospects.. Arod is a far far safer investment at 10 yrs then Johan is at 6.. Because if he gets hurt and does not fulfill that deal.. Your out of the money and those players.

And for what its worth.. I do agree with you on Melky.. He is a nice little player.. But thats about it..

[epo]

If you combine the frailness of a SP vs an everyday player.. Then getting Arod for "just money" And getting Johan for 2 3 or 4 top to good prospects.. Arod is a far far safer investment at 10 yrs then Johan is at 6.. Because if he gets hurt and does not fulfill that deal.. Your out of the money and those players.

And for what its worth.. I do agree with you on Melky.. He is a nice little player.. But thats about it..

But isn't great pitching really the cornerstone to winning in the playoffs. Isn't that worth the risk?

[Kevin]

But isn't great pitching really the cornerstone to winning in the playoffs. Isn't that worth the risk?

Yea, it is.. But also.. Next year is just a ridiculous FA pitching class.. I would be happy to keep Phil Hughes.. Take my chances with a young staff, and if we do not win this year.. Go sign a SP, Like a Peavy or others.. Id even be willing to see how much it would take to get Haran.. I just do not think Johan, who's Fastball velocity was down and his stats were down.. And he really never gives you more than 6, 7 at best, is worth paying 25 per, and dealing 3 4 chips in your farm.. The Yankees could do it and replenish, so can the sox, not many others..

[TheMojoPin]

And nevermind that while the Yanks have money, they hardly have the kind of farm system where they can just fart away players on a deal like this and shrug it off if Santana tanks. They'd be just as fucked as pretty much any team that isn't the Braves or in the NL West. Bottom line, if you're trying to argue that this is only about two teams, money is pretty much your only man point. Santana has mentioned teams that he would go to that could pay him and have much better farm systems than the Yanks. If Santana goes to the Yanks, it's likely because he wants to go there due to the NTC, not because the Twins think that's the best deal.

[TheMojoPin]

Yea, it is.. But also.. Next year is just a ridiculous FA pitching class.. I would be happy to keep Phil Hughes.. Take my chances with a young staff, and if we do not win this year.. Go sign a SP, Like a Peavy or others.. Id even be willing to see how much it would take to get Haran.. I just do not think Johan, who's Fastball velocity was down and his stats were down.. And he really never gives you more than 6, 7 at best, is worth paying 25 per, and dealing 3 4 chips in your farm.. The Yankees could do it and replenish, so can the sox, not many others..

I agree with you on this. The Yanks have some decent young starters who could very easily and likely will improve your starting pitching from last year. Hell, the Cubs have been randomly tossed out in the Santana deal bcause if they did have the money (they don't, and I don't think Santana would OK a trade trying to get his payday and the Cubs' ownership up in the air) they could easily equal or trump the Yanks' and the Red Sox' deals player-wise...but I wouldn't want them to do it. Rich Hill would likely be the centerpiece of that deal, and I'd much rather stik with his production on the cheap than for the ultimately relatively minor increase of Santana.

[TheGameHHH]

Yea, it is.. But also.. Next year is just a ridiculous FA pitching class.. I would be happy to keep Phil Hughes.. Take my chances with a young staff, and if we do not win this year.. Go sign a SP, Like a Peavy or others.. Id even be willing to see how much it would take to get Haran.. I just do not think Johan, who's Fastball velocity was down and his stats were down.. And he really never gives you more than 6, 7 at best, is worth paying 25 per, and dealing 3 4 chips in your farm.. The Yankees could do it and replenish, so can the sox, not many others..

I want the Yanks to get Haren badly, he's a step down from Johan obviously (who isn't?) but he would still be an ace, cost less in money and he wouldn't cost Hughes.

[Kevin]

And nevermind that while the Yanks have money, they hardly have the kind of farm system where they can just fart away players on a deal like this and shrug it off if Santana tanks. They'd be just as fucked as pretty much any team that isn't the Braves or in the NL West. Bottom line, if you're trying to argue that this is only about two teams, money is pretty much your only man point. Santana has mentioned teams that he would go to that could pay him and have much better farm systems than the Yanks. If Santana goes to the Yanks, it's likely because he wants to go there due to the NTC, not because the Twins think that's the best deal.

Yanks have the #1 pitching farm in all of baseball.. Depth and skill.. Plus like i stated before.. The reason why they have that is because of the financial aspect of the draft.. They can replenish much easier, becuase as long as owners are cheap enough to not wanna pay Bonuses.. The Hughes's Joba's Kennedy's Hornes, Bucholtz etc.. Will continue to fall to them and the sox.. Who will pay them. It sucks, thats the reality in MLB..

[Kevin]

I agree with you on this. The Yanks have some decent young starters who could very easily and likely will improve your starting pitching from last year. Hell, the Cubs have been randomly tossed out in the Santana deal bcause if they did have the money (they don't, and I don't think Santana would OK a trade trying to get his payday and the Cubs' ownership up in the air) they could easily equal or trump the Yanks' and the Red Sox' deals player-wise...but I wouldn't want them to do it. Rich Hill would likely be the centerpiece of that deal, and I'd much rather stik with his production on the cheap than for the ultimately relatively minor increase of Santana.

Rich Hill is no baby... He will be 28 when spring training rolls around.. So i do not think Twins would like him..

Why did it take so long for him to come up?

[TheMojoPin]

Yanks have the #1 pitching farm in all of baseball.. Depth and skill...

Really? I don't have access to Baeball America's 2007 farm talent rankings, but their 2006 ranking has the Yankees down at #17, #24 the year before that and #27 the year before that...#17, 5 and 7 in 2003-2001. (http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/features/26854.html)

Granted, these are overall evaluations of all farm players, not just pitching, but I find it hard to assume that you seperate their non-pitching prospects and suddenly they shoot up to #1. I'm sure their ranking is higher in 2007, but from #17 to #1? I'll believe it when I see it.

[TheMojoPin]

Rich Hill is no baby... He will be 28 when spring training rolls around.. So i do not think Twins would like him..

Why did it take so long for him to come up?

He just wasn't maing the transfer to the MLB. Lights out in the minors, not so good in the majors. He made it click in 2006 and looked amazing. Had a excellent year in 2007, too. Yeah, he's 28, but he's got 2 consecutive seasons of VERY good MLB service, he's a lefty and he's cheap for at least two more years. He's older, but he matches any offer from the Yanks because of his MLB success. Always go with the proven player over the prospect. Hill has shown he's the real deal for two season now. Why would the Twins not like him because of his age? They'd control him for at least two seasons and 28 is still young. It's not like he's 28 with no MLB success. He's 28 with some of the best strikeout numbers/rates in all of baseball over the last two seasons.

[Kevin]

This is the perfect example i can give on my draft point....


Dellin Betances: Another projected top 10 pick, but comminted to vanderbilt and had a high price tag. but, was picked in the 8th round and signed for 1 million. His fastball hits 98, throws a low 80's hammer curve, and has a plus change.... hhmmmm phil hughes anyone? savy, with kennedys intelligence, and at 6' 7 is immtimidating..... yankees will take it slow with him, and could end up in the bigs by 10'.

[Kevin]

This is where he was prejected to be drafted Overall by a scouting website...

2. Colorado Rockies - Dellin Betances, RHP, R/R, 6’9, 210, Grand Street HS, Brooklyn, NY

I expect to get more feedback on this pick than any other, but Dellin Betances is the most impressive prep pitcher I’ve seen so far. He has ridiculous tilt on his fastball thanks to his height; almost every heater crosses the plate at or below the knees unless he buzzes someone. Even more impressive, he repeats his delivery and has good command of three pitches – including a sharp-breaking curve and a promising changeup, which is unusual for a pitcher of his size and experience. Finally, he owns the game when he takes the mound. He is quietly intimidating, both through his size and his stony composure, and I expect him to add velocity in 2006 and have a huge season. The Rockies will look for a pitcher in this spot, but won’t feel comfortable with Max Scherzer’s representation (rumored to be Scott Boras) or Daniel Bard’s Coors Field outlook. Ultimately, I think it’s very possible that they’ll turn to Betances and his grounder-inducing fastball.

The Yanks Have a great sp farm.. You do not hear too much of these guys because they are all very young.. And would have been top picks if they didn't want so much..

Link (http://phillies.scout.com/2/497494.html)

This kid fell to the 8TH round!

[TheMojoPin]

Where is the Yanks' farm system rated #1?

[Kevin]

Where is the Yanks' farm system rated #1?

Cant find anywhere where the split ratings.. But i did hear in numerous occasions that they do have the #1 top to bottom AAA to A pitching farm.. Just cant produce the proof right now.. Take it for what its worth i guess..

[TheMojoPin]

Cant find anywhere where the split ratings.. But i did hear in numerous occasions that they do have the #1 top to bottom AAA to A pitching farm.. Just cant produce the proof right now.. Take it for what its worth i guess..

Hey, if it's true, it's true...I just really doubt it. Their pitching prospects do seem decent at this moment, but their overall farm system is pretty lacking.

[Kevin]

Hey, if it's true, it's true...I just really doubt it. Their pitching prospects do seem decent at this moment, but their overall farm system is pretty lacking.

Well.. look at it this way.. They were rated in the top 10 overall this year.. According to ESPN.. Now with such a lacking at pos players, to be rated in the Top 10.. You have to have a pretty damn highly rated pitching part of it, if your pos players aren't really great.

The Yankees have long had the game's biggest payroll, but their farm system has lain fallow for several years, the result of some uninspired draft picks and trades that rid the system of the few prospects who remained. Over the last 18 months, however, the Yanks' system has made a stunning turnaround, going from one of the five worst systems in the game to one of the 10 best.

That was in jan 26.. from Keith Law of ESPN.. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove06/columns/story?columnist=law_keith&id=2742549) Before the emergence of Joba and Kennedy.. They both were highly rated, but not that high to begin the year..

[Bulldogcakes]

In the end, I think the Yankees get him, but they're gonna give up Hughes to do it. The Red Sox are gonna up Lester to Bucholtz or Crisp to Elsbury and then the Yanks are gonna crack and offer Hughes.

I unfortunately agree with this. I think its a mistake, and we'll be kicking ourselves in a few years. But I agree.

Over the next few years, Santana will be winning 20 games for the Yanks and everyone will say it was a good deal. But 3-4 years down the line, Hughes will be in his prime and Santana will be declining and we'll all be kicking ourselves.

The Yanks ultimate strategy may be to let Boston offer more, thinking that they won't be able to sign him. Like what happened with Texas/Boston and A-Rod. If they think they're bluffing, thats the way you call it. I'll bet they have sent word to Santana that he will get every penny he wants if he approves the deal to the Yanks, so he could be their trump card in all of this. If thats the case he has no reason to let the BoSox get him for a penny less, and may not want to pitch in Fenway.

I still think the Sox are bluffing. If they didn't make you sweat at some point they wouldn't be any good at it.

[Bulldogcakes]

Really? I don't have access to Baeball America's 2007 farm talent rankings, but their 2006 ranking has the Yankees down at #17, #24 the year before that and #27 the year before that...#17, 5 and 7 in 2003-2001. (http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/features/26854.html)

Granted, these are overall evaluations of all farm players, not just pitching, but I find it hard to assume that you seperate their non-pitching prospects and suddenly they shoot up to #1. I'm sure their ranking is higher in 2007, but from #17 to #1? I'll believe it when I see it.

Thats very old info, especially in the fast changing world of prospects. Baseball Prospectus ranked the Yanks system #1 in pitching before the 2007 season. I think it was #1 in pitching and #14 for position players, giving them an overall ranking of #9. The same year the Bosox were #14 or something. But thats old info since it included Hughes as a prospect and he has enough MLB experience that he's is no longer considered to be one.

None of this matters much anyway. Even if your system is ranked lower you may still have enough individual players who are better fits to make this deal, and the Red Sox are proving that.

[Bulldogcakes]

This is where he was prejected to be drafted Overall by a scouting website...

2. Colorado Rockies - Dellin Betances, RHP, R/R, 6’9, 210, Grand Street HS, Brooklyn, NY

I expect to get more feedback on this pick than any other, but Dellin Betances is the most impressive prep pitcher I’ve seen so far. He has ridiculous tilt on his fastball thanks to his height; almost every heater crosses the plate at or below the knees unless he buzzes someone. Even more impressive, he repeats his delivery and has good command of three pitches – including a sharp-breaking curve and a promising changeup, which is unusual for a pitcher of his size and experience. Finally, he owns the game when he takes the mound. He is quietly intimidating, both through his size and his stony composure, and I expect him to add velocity in 2006 and have a huge season. The Rockies will look for a pitcher in this spot, but won’t feel comfortable with Max Scherzer’s representation (rumored to be Scott Boras) or Daniel Bard’s Coors Field outlook. Ultimately, I think it’s very possible that they’ll turn to Betances and his grounder-inducing fastball.

The Yanks Have a great sp farm.. You do not hear too much of these guys because they are all very young.. And would have been top picks if they didn't want so much..

Link (http://phillies.scout.com/2/497494.html)

This kid fell to the 8TH round!

Betances is a rare case. First off, he only wanted to sign with the Yanks. His mechanics were a mess, and he was only 18 at the time. When Nardi Contreres got him in camp he was amazed at how fast he straightened out his mechanics and how quickly he learned new pitches. Took about 2 weeks in each case. Most guys that tall have trouble repeating their delivery. Randy Johnson was in the bigs 3-4 years before he ironed out his kinks (which explains his early wildness). You can't predict stuff like that, they just got lucky with him. But it also represents the Yanks new approach with prospects in going for guys with high ceilings. Some will pan out, most will be busts. Betances could still be either. He's yet to pitch a full season in A ball, so his health and durability is a total unknown.

And no, I wouldn't trade him for anyone. He has one of the highest ceilings in all of baseball.

[TheMojoPin]

Thats very old info, especially in the fast changing world of prospects. Baseball Prospectus ranked the Yanks system #1 in pitching before the 2007 season. I think it was #1 in pitching and #14 for position players, giving them an overall ranking of #9. The same year the Bosox were #14 or something. But thats old info since it included Hughes as a prospect and he has enough MLB experience that he's is no longer considered to be one.

Well, my link wasn't "very old" since it was just the 2006 evaluations and 2007 is the only other option. Like I said, I don't doubt the Yanks improved, but I'd be curious to see BP and BA's rankings for 2007 spelled out. The Yanks have a few decent pitching prospects, but I'm just not seeing how they could be ranked #1.

[Bulldogcakes]

Well, my link wasn't "very old" since it was just the 2006 evaluations and 2007 is the only other option. Like I said, I don't doubt the Yanks improved, but I'd be curious to see BP and BA's rankings for 2007 spelled out. The Yanks have a few decent pitching prospects, but I'm just not seeing how they could be ranked #1.

Here it is. (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=5870)

They were actually 18th in hitting, 1st in pitching. Overall they ranked 4th, not 9th.
Somebody please remember this post the next time Kev says I never admit it when I'm wrong. :wink:



Here's a recent article about their top 11 prospects. (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6957)

and one from last January (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=5828)

Thats what I mean about how fast these things can change.

[Bulldogcakes]

Its not just me, the Yanks strongly believe the Bosox are bluffing (http://www.nypost.com/seven/11302007/sports/yankees/bosox_tryin__to_stockpile_720357.htm)

November 30, 2007 -- The Yankees strongly suspect that if the Red Sox were on the brink of acquiring Johan Santana that the Twins would let them know as a way to, at the least, elicit a last, best package offer. And as of last night, the Yanks had not heard such info.

Damn, I'm smart.

[Bulldogcakes]

Breaking News: Yanks add Hughes to package (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/11/30/2007-11-30_yankees_decide_to_offer_phil_hughes_in_p-2.html)


I feel sick.

[TheGameHHH]

Breaking News: Yanks add Hughes to package (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/11/30/2007-11-30_yankees_decide_to_offer_phil_hughes_in_p-2.html)


I feel sick.

this is literally the worst idea ever, im going on record right now saying I don't like this deal AT ALL.

The Red Sox have found another way to fuck us in the ass.

[epo]

this is literally the worst idea ever, im going on record right now saying I don't like this deal AT ALL.

The Red Sox have found another way to fuck us in the ass.

Either that or the Twins just played hardball with everyone.

Honestly, if I were that GM I would remind everyone that in the worst case scenario I'm getting a first rounder & a sandwich pick for Santana...and I'm willing to take that if you pricks don't ante up.

[HBox]

While I really would like to keep Hughes you had to know it would come down to this. They weren't getting him just Kennedy, Melky and some random prospect. This is the best pitcher in the game. If the Yanks were devoid of starting pitching besides Hughes I'd be against this but as it is they still have Chamberlain, Kennedy, Horne, Sanchez, Betances, I could go on. They have a large pool of starting prospects.

Just remember if this happens they are getting the best pitcher in baseball without giving up their top prospect.

[Doctor Z]

While I really would like to keep Hughes you had to know it would come down to this. They weren't getting him just Kennedy, Melky and some random prospect. This is the best pitcher in the game. If the Yanks were devoid of starting pitching besides Hughes I'd be against this but as it is they still have Chamberlain, Kennedy, Horne, Sanchez, Betances, I could go on. They have a large pool of starting prospects.

Just remember if this happens they are getting the best pitcher in baseball without giving up their top prospect.

No, this is:

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2006/06/30/1151677957_3871.jpg

Trading Hughes makes me sick to my stomach. I hate this idea. Did we forget what he did in Game 4?

[HBox]

No, this is:

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2006/06/30/1151677957_3871.jpg

Trading Hughes makes me sick to my stomach. I hate this idea. Did we forget what he did in Game 4?

Did you forget what Hughes did most of the season? He's NOT a sure thing. He's very promising and has a ton pof potential, but so does Santana and he's already met it.

As for Beckett, he can enter the conversation when he finally puts up two good, healthy seasons in a row.

[Doctor Z]

Dude, Hughes was injured MOST of the season. Before he got hurt, he was in the middle of a no hitter, and in his one October appearance, he absolutely SHUT DOWN Cleveland in a do-or-die situation after Clemens shit the bed.

Let's not forget that before Joba came out of nowhere, Hughes was our golden boy prospect... THE #1 pitching prospect in all of baseball. He earned that untouchable status for a reason. He's gonna be fucking good. Real good.

[TheMojoPin]

Dude, Hughes was injured MOST of the season. Before he got hurt, he was in the middle of a no hitter, and in his one October appearance, he absolutely SHUT DOWN Cleveland in a do-or-die situation after Clemens shit the bed.

Let's not forget that before Joba came out of nowhere, Hughes was our golden boy prospect... THE #1 pitching prospect in all of baseball. He earned that untouchable status for a reason. He's gonna be fucking good. Real good.

You always, ALWAYS go with the proven sure thing when you can take that over the "hopefully/probably will be good" in baseball, ESPECIALLY with pitchers of this level of talent.

And really...Beckett the best pitcher in baseball?

...

Honestly, it was inevitable that the Yankees were gonna have to step up to Hughes if they wanted this done, especially when they're trying to make Kennedy and freakin' Melky as the centerpieces.

[Bulldogcakes]

One thing about Hughes that has concerned me is his injury history. He's had 4 injuries in 4 years of professional baseball. 2 of them although minor, were arm related. I've also read articles where some of the mechanics geeks think he'll blow out his shoulder (http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/if-it-aint-brokea-video-review-of-phil-hughes-mechanical-changes/) eventually. And yet he's the smartest pitcher I've seen the Yanks produce. Tom Seaver smart. His control is impeccable and his stuff is excellent when he's on, and a pitcher as smart as him will figure out a way to get outs when he doesn't have his best stuff. The only question I have about Hughes is his health.

I think we'll be happy for the next 3 years, while Johan is winning 20 games for us and Hughes is learning the league. But after that, when Johan is declining and Hughes is entering his prime, I think we'll be kicking ourselves every day.

If we get a championship in the next few years, it was worth it.

If we don't, it wasn't.

[Bulldogcakes]

As for Beckett, he can enter the conversation when he finally puts up two good, healthy seasons in a row.

Becketts shoulder is a time bomb waiting to go off. The Red Sox knew that when they got him, and still made the deal. And its paid off for them so far.

[TheMojoPin]

One thing about Hughes that has concerned me is his injury history. He's had 4 injuries in 4 years of professional baseball. 2 of them although minor, were arm related. I've also read articles where some of the mechanics geeks think he'll blow out his shoulder (http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/if-it-aint-brokea-video-review-of-phil-hughes-mechanical-changes/) eventually. And yet he's the smartest pitcher I've seen the Yanks produce. Tom Seaver smart. His control is impeccable and his stuff is excellent when he's on, and a pitcher as smart as him will figure out a way to get outs when he doesn't have his best stuff. The only question I have about Hughes is his health.

I think we'll be happy for the next 3 years, while Johan is winning 20 games for us and Hughes is learning the league. But after that, when Johan is declining and Hughes is entering his prime, I think we'll be kicking ourselves every day.

If we get a championship in the next few years, it was worth it.

If we don't, it wasn't.

But that's kind of the point...the Yanks are clearly trying to win now. The idea of trying to "build anew from within" or with younger and cheaper players lasted for less than a week...then the huge ARod deal and now another massive deal likely around the corner for Santana plus the resigning of Abreu...these aren't the actions of a team planing on waiting 2-3 seasons while young talent comes together and starts taking over.

And you talk about 3 years as if Santana is going to plummet off of a cliff talent or health-wise...isn't it more likely that the injury-riddled Hughes is going to have problems in 3 years, prime or not?

[lleeder]

I showed my girlfriend the above still and asked her what she thought

This quote from that link proves the guy who wrote it is a liar.

[TheGameHHH]

One thing about Hughes that has concerned me is his injury history. He's had 4 injuries in 4 years of professional baseball. 2 of them although minor, were arm related. I've also read articles where some of the mechanics geeks think he'll blow out his shoulder (http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/if-it-aint-brokea-video-review-of-phil-hughes-mechanical-changes/) eventually. And yet he's the smartest pitcher I've seen the Yanks produce. Tom Seaver smart. His control is impeccable and his stuff is excellent when he's on, and a pitcher as smart as him will figure out a way to get outs when he doesn't have his best stuff. The only question I have about Hughes is his health.

I think we'll be happy for the next 3 years, while Johan is winning 20 games for us and Hughes is learning the league. But after that, when Johan is declining and Hughes is entering his prime, I think we'll be kicking ourselves every day.

If we get a championship in the next few years, it was worth it.

If we don't, it wasn't.

exactly, and while we all have differing opinions on this trade the truth of the matter is nothing is really gonna be settled here until like 5-10 years down the line when we see what's actually happened with these two guys. its pointless to argue about this now when we have no idea what the future holds.

[Bulldogcakes]

And you talk about 3 years as if Santana is going to plummet off of a cliff talent or health-wise...isn't it more likely that the injury-riddled Hughes is going to have problems in 3 years, prime or not?

Santana's NOT a big guy, and guys who throw as hard as he does usually don't hold up well. He's also thrown a lot of innings in his career, so the clock is ticking. He will fall off a cliff at some point. Guys like him usually don't stay effective past their early 30's. See Pedro Martinez (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/martipe02.shtml) and Ron Guidry (http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/guidrro01.shtml) as good benchmarks. Both were about the same size, and both were finished as elite pitchers by the time they were 33-34. Johan's a bit bigger, but considered to be a similar body type.

He's also perfect for Yankee stadium and his career 1.29 ERA there is amazing.

[chubbyknuckles]

But that's kind of the point...the Yanks are clearly trying to win now. The idea of trying to "build anew from within" or with younger and cheaper players lasted for less than a week...then the huge ARod deal and now another massive deal likely around the corner for Santana plus the resigning of Abreu...these aren't the actions of a team planing on waiting 2-3 seasons while young talent comes together and starts taking over.

And you talk about 3 years as if Santana is going to plummet off of a cliff talent or health-wise...isn't it more likely that the injury-riddled Hughes is going to have problems in 3 years, prime or not?

I complteley agree, hughes has been a constant injury since he came up, and while he's touted as this great pitcher , he hasn't come close to living up to it. Now, i get the fact he's young and needs time, but you're talking Santana here, you have to do it, and the red sox deal is a joke, lester and coco crisp? And if hughes grows and becomes the guys he supposed to, then we'll over pay him in 3 years. Just remember Brendan Claussen, we don't want that kind of bust keeping hughes.

[Bulldogcakes]

I like any guy named "Chubby knuckles".


Especially if he's a Yankee fan.

[RogerDornShortHops]

Hey all.....been gone for a while....away on a little journey.
Really pissed I havent been able to comment on the Yankee happenings

Know its long passed, but, happy Torre's gone....finally can start anew. Pissed Donnie Baseball went with him, but he had no choice.

The ARod situation was great.....the only better way he coul've played it is if he never opted out.

I'm sooooo shakey about giving away our young guys for Santana. I KNOW how great Johan is.....but he is 29?? and I always worry about the NY factor....great to have the guys that come up into the big pressure situations (Mariano, Jeter, Pettite, Posada, etc).....sometimes, no matter how great someone is elsewhere, it's just not the same once he gets to the Yanks. That being said, I can't knock Cashman for making the deal.

I LIKE HANK STEINBRENNER.

[Kevin]

I like any guy named "Chubby knuckles".


Especially if he's a Yankee fan.

He is a Mets fan... The same Met fan that a package of Miladge and BELTRAN can get the job done way before a package of Kennedy, Cano, Melky..

[RogerDornShortHops]

How about the Haren talks that are going on?

[Kevin]

How about the Haren talks that are going on?

I think who ever loses out on Santana, prob get Haren..

[HBox]

I think who ever loses out on Santana, prob get Haren..

And knowing Billy Beane, he'll wait as long as he has too and rape whoever misses out on Santana.

[Kevin]

And knowing Billy Beane, he'll wait as long as he has too and rape whoever misses out on Santana.

He will prob get what each offerd for Santana..

[Bulldogcakes]

And knowing Billy Beane, he'll wait as long as he has too and rape whoever misses out on Santana.

The Yanks will still be involved with Haren, and it won't be just to drive up the price. They still have plenty in their upper levels and if Hughes is the price for the 2 time Cy Young "best pitcher in baseball" then a package centered around Kennedy for Haren (or Bedard) sounds about right.

As we saw in this trade, the BoSox won't deal Ellsbury or Bucholtz. The package they offered for Santana can still be matched (and I think trumped) by a deal with Kennedy as the centerpiece. I don't know what the A's needs are, so it remains to be seen how good a fit either the Yanks or Sox are.

According to Peter Abraham, it looks like Pettite is retiring. A Santana deal would put the Yanks close to being on par with the Bosox pitching wise. Whoever gets Haren would have the edge. The Yanks have to be aggressively involved.

[Bulldogcakes]

If the Santana deal goes through, the Yankee pitching staff is this
Santana
Wang
Mussina
Joba Chamberlain
Kennedy

with Horne in AAA as your 6th starter

The Red Sox staff is
Beckett
Schilling
Matsuzaka
Bucholtz
Lester

Beckett and Santana are a wash, both are elite pitchers. Wang and Schilling I give the Yanks a regular season edge given Schillings age, but in big games Schilling still gets the nod. You'd expect Matsuzaka to be better with a year under his belt. Moose is finished, he couldn't hold his spot in the rotation last year. I can't expect him to be any better this year. Huge edge Sox. Bucholtz and Chamberlain are a wash. Both are highly touted prospects. Kennedy and Lester are a wash as well. They're also irrelevant in a big series as 5th starters.

Overall, edge Red Sox. Without Pettite, the Yanks need another starter.

However, if Pettite comes back and Moose loses his spot in the rotation then I'd say slight edge Yanks. Both in the regular season and post season.

[chubbyknuckles]

He is a Mets fan... The same Met fan that a package of Miladge and BELTRAN can get the job done way before a package of Kennedy, Cano, Melky..

Not a met fan at all, hate the mets. Yankee fan, and wtf was the deal they made for milledge? Horrible, unlesss its a set up trade, which i'm just baffled by.

[TheMojoPin]

then a package centered around Kennedy for Haren (or Bedard) sounds about right.

But why would the O's trade Bedard to their division rivals?

[Tenbatsuzen]

Santana's been injured. I know he's the best pitcher in the game. But I am totally willing to wait a year and give him money then than mortgage the future for him now.

And if he goes to the Red Sox, let them mortgage the future.

Bottom line: You hold it off now, you could be potentially looking at Hughes/CMW/Joba/IPK with an outfield of Carl Crawford, Melky, and Matsui to open up the new stadium in 2009.

[Tenbatsuzen]

But why would the O's trade Bedard to their division rivals?

Especially since Angelos hates everything Steinbrenner?

[TheMojoPin]

Santana's been injured. I know he's the best pitcher in the game. But I am totally willing to wait a year and give him money then than mortgage the future for him now.

And if he goes to the Red Sox, let them mortgage the future.

Bottom line: You hold it off now, you could be potentially looking at Hughes/CMW/Joba/IPK with an outfield of Carl Crawford, Melky, and Matsui to open up the new stadium in 2009.

Strike Melky. The Yanks dress it up well, but they're trying to unload him, and they should. Matsui's getting old and Crawford is decent but not THAT good. That OF would not be terribly impressive at all.

[Bulldogcakes]

But why would the O's trade Bedard to their division rivals?

I don't know what McPhail thinks about those situations. I hear he's a very methodical, rational guy. So he may be open to it if it makes the most sense for his team.

I always think you should go with the best package, period. Regardless of where it comes from. Anything else would be a disservice to your franchise. The only exception I make are crosstown deals (Yanks-Mets, Cubs-ChiSox etc) which are too risky and you'll never live down if they go bad.

But I know many GMs are spineless loads, so you may be right.

[Bulldogcakes]

From MLB Trade rumors (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/)

Johan Santana Rumors

UPDATE, 12-1-07 at noon: Buster Olney says the Yanks' upgraded offer is now on the table, but the Twins will meet with the Red Sox this afternoon to see if they can get Theo Epstein to include both Ellsbury and Buchholz.

UPDATE, 12-1-07 at 3:30pm: La Velle E. Neal III has a Santana update for us. He says the Yanks are offering Hughes, Cabrera, and Ian Kennedy right now. If that's for real, I think the Twins should accept. However, Neal's assertion runs contrary to Jon Heyman's take - he says the third player will not be Kennedy, Alan Horne, or Jose Tabata.

Meanwhile it sounds like the Red Sox are still pushing Coco Crisp over Jacoby Ellsbury. Neal adds that the Mets might re-consider their stance on Jose Reyes, and that the Twins would prefer to ship Santana over to the NL.


UPDATE, 12-1-07 at 5pm: Ken Rosenthal says the Twins are asking for shortstop Alberto Gonzalez or starter Alan Horne as the third player from the Yankees. Doesn't sound like Hughes + Kennedy is any kind of possibility. The Yankees cracked and put Hughes in...unless the Red Sox crack and put Ellsbury in it seems like Santana will end up in the Bronx.


They can have Gonzalez. Looks like the Yanks drew the line after including Hughes.

Sounds like its going to happen, maybe as soon as tomorrow. Rosenthal also said on Neer's show this morning that the Twins want to do this deal soon, since Haren is now on the block. If either the Yanks or Bosox strike a deal for Haren at the winter meetings, their whole bargaining strategy collapses.

[Kevin]

From MLB Trade rumors (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/)



They can have Gonzalez. Looks like the Yanks drew the line after including Hughes.

Sounds like its going to happen, maybe as soon as tomorrow. Rosenthal also said on Neer's show this morning that the Twins want to do this deal soon, since Haren is now on the block. If either the Yanks or Bosox strike a deal for Haren at the winter meetings, their whole bargaining strategy collapses.

I agree with the Twins wanting to do this quick thing.. And they better not give them Austin Jackson either.. We already caved enough with Hughes.. Gammons said earlier that it would take Hughes Melky Jackson and Horne.. Fuck that..

[Doctor Z]

If Phil Hughes isn't a Yankee in 2008, I'm boycotting baseball.

[Bulldogcakes]

I agree with the Twins wanting to do this quick thing.. And they better not give them Austin Jackson either.. We already caved enough with Hughes.. Gammons said earlier that it would take Hughes Melky Jackson and Horne.. Fuck that..

Nah, apparently the Yanks drew the line after including Hughes. The other player will be a B-prospect from everything I've read from the Yankee side.

Buster Onley has been updating his column every 15 minutes for the past hour or so. Sounds like its getting real close. We should know one way or the other very soon.

[TheGameHHH]

Nah, apparently the Yanks drew the line after including Hughes. The other player will be a B-prospect from everything I've read from the Yankee side.

Buster Onley has been updating his column every 15 minutes for the past hour or so. Sounds like its getting real close. We should know one way or the other very soon.

keep this thread updated as much as you can, im gonna watch boxing tonight so im not gonna have a lot of time to check baseball sites. dealing hughes is killing me as is, if austin jackson is in that deal as well im personally gonna slit hank's throat.

[Bulldogcakes]

Peter Abraham (http://yankees.lhblogs.com/)

The AP is now reporting that Phil Hughes is part of the offer for Johan Santana along with Melky Cabrera and a “mid-level prospect.”

In a new twist, the wire service says the offer could have an expiration date of a few days as the Yankees are prepared to go after Danny Haren. Now that most everybody believes the Red Sox aren’t serious, the Yankees are putting some pressure on the Twins to make this deal before it gets any more complicated.

That means no Austin Jackson or Tabata. Maybe Alberto Gonzalez or Brett Gardner. Heyman's saying Horne is off limits also. Which makes sense, Horne is an A level prospect.

It sounds like when they were talking about Tabata or Jackson, the idea was to keep Hughes out of the package. They were sweetening the Kennedy-Melky package. Now that they added Hughes, they're adamant about the 3rd player being a B prospect.

The fact that they've gone in this direction should mean they'll still have plenty to go after Haren with. A deal centered around Kennedy and Horne should make Beane happy, and could still beat this Bosox offer if they take what they offered here and send it to Beane.

Again, a Santana deal will mean we keep pace with the Bosox. I think the team that gets Haren is the favorite in the AL East. With or w/o Pettite returning.

[chubbyknuckles]

If Phil Hughes isn't a Yankee in 2008, I'm boycotting baseball.

What is it exactly about hughes that makes him untouchable to you?

[TheGameHHH]

Peter Abraham (http://yankees.lhblogs.com/)



That means no Austin Jackson or Tabata. Maybe Alberto Gonzalez or Brett Gardner. Heyman's saying Horne is off limits also.

It sounds like when they were talking about Tabata or Jackson, the idea was to keep Hughes out of the package. They were sweetening the Kennedy-Melky package. Now that they added Hughes, they're adamant about the 3rd player being a B prospect.

The fact that they've gone in this direction should mean they'll still have plenty to go after Haren with. A deal centered around Kennedy and Horne should make Beane happy, and could still beat this Bosox offer if they take what they offered here and send it to Beane.

Again, a Santana deal will mean we keep pace with the Bosox. I think the team that gets Haren is the favorite in the AL East. With or w/o Pettite returning.

U think Haren, CMW, two kids and Moose would trump Santana, Beckett, Schilling, Dice-K and who cares?

[Bulldogcakes]

U think Haren, CMW, two kids and Moose would trump Santana, Beckett, Schilling, Dice-K and who cares?

No, I said if they get Santana the Yanks keep pace. If either team gets Haren, they pull ahead. With or without Pettite returning.

[TheGameHHH]

No, I said if they get Santana the Yanks keep pace. If either team gets Haren, they pull ahead. With or without Pettite returning.

ok, i misread what you typed as regardless of Santana whoever gets Haren pulls ahead.

[Kevin]

I also think that the roles will be totally reversed if the Yanks Santana.. It will be the Yankees forcing the Sox to give up Elsbury or Bucholtz because the Sox would see as the Yanks getting Him AND Santana, to be insurmountable.. I am not sure if the Yanks would be serious for Haren, but they will most def drive up the price by offerin Kennedy Horne package.. And Lester and Crisp and other wont beat that.. A rotation of Santana Joba Haren Wang and Whatever, wuld be so much better than the Sox rotation. Plus i think then Andy would come back for one last run, because he sees a great shot at a 5th ring, and going out on top.

[Bulldogcakes]

I also think that the roles will be totally reversed if the Yanks Santana.. It will be the Yankees forcing the Sox to give up Elsbury or Bucholtz because the Sox would see as the Yanks getting Him AND Santana, to be insurmountable.. I am not sure if the Yanks would be serious for Haren, but they will most def drive up the price by offerin Kennedy Horne package.. And Lester and Crisp and other wont beat that.. A rotation of Santana Joba Haren Wang and Whatever, wuld be so much better than the Sox rotation. Plus i think then Andy would come back for one last run, because he sees a great shot at a 5th ring, and going out on top.

That right there is one gem of a post. Great point, Kev.

They would need to give up Lester AND Bucholtz to top Kennedy/Horne, both of whom are A level prospects. Yanks would still have Joba, Kennedy and Horne if they lose the bid. So if Pettite does come back the Yanks and the Sox get Haren they would be just about even pitching wise. Though the Yanks would have much better depth, which comes in handy over a 162 game season.

I didn't think the Sox would have to give up Bucholtz, but they would. You're absolutely right. Beane will go for pitching in return.

[Bulldogcakes]

Yanks, Twins close in on deal (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/12/01/santana.talks/index.html)



The Yankees likely thought they met Minnesota's original asking price by including the well-regarded righthander Hughes along with young center fielder Cabrera and a third prospect. However, the Yankees' apparent belief was that the third young player was to be a "second-tier'' prospect, not someone the stature of Horne or Jackson. It's also possible the sides could bridge the gap by expanding the deal to include more players.

2 B level prospects. Fine, but no Jackson or Tabata.

Gonzalez and Gardner and you have a deal.

[Kevin]

Yanks, Twins close in on deal (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/12/01/santana.talks/index.html)

They're still trying to get Jackson as the 3rd player, but the Yanks won't budge. Stay tuned . . .

How are the Redsox still involved.. That is horse shit.. If they are not gving up Els or Bucholtz.. They are not involved.. They better not fucking fall for it and give up Jackson or Horne.. I think the sox are trying to include them so the Yanks have less a shot at Haren.. They better not fall for it.

[cougarjake13]

Plus i think then Andy would come back for one last run, because he sees a great shot at a 5th ring, and going out on top.



thats kinda what i was thinking about pettite

he's just sitting back and seeing what they yanks were gonna do... i.e mo, posada, a rod and what ever else they might do

it doesnt hurt him to sit around and do nothing he already said its the yanks or retirement i guess he gets that shit from clemens

[TheGameHHH]

man, i would love to be a baseball GM. does Cashman have any say in this team anymore? i know theres no way he'd give up both Hughes and Jackson but I bet Hank would.

[BoondockSaint]

Yanks trade Hughes, Kennedy, Jackson for Santana and player to named later. (http://www.nypost.com/sports/baseball/yanks_twins_heart_attack?)

[TheGameHHH]

Yanks trade Hughes, Kennedy, Jackson for Santana and player to named later. (http://www.nypost.com/sports/baseball/yanks_twins_heart_attack?)

link isnt working and ill kill u if its true

[Bulldogcakes]

link isnt working and ill kill u if its true

Kill him. He's a hideous ball breaker.

[BoondockSaint]

I may have been joking.

[Sarge]

I may have been joking.

Rat Fink!

[TheGameHHH]

I may have been joking.

i hope it was worth it, cause that joke just cost you your life. prepare to die

[Kevin]

i hope it was worth it, cause that joke just cost you your life. prepare to die

Seriously.. Thats not cool.

[cougarjake13]

Seriously.. Thats not cool.

http://www.usanetwork.com/sports/wwe/downloads/wallpapers/images/carlito800x600.jpg

[JimBeam]

Olney, in his 50th different " inside scoop ", was saying on ESPN Gamenight that the Twins went back to the Redsox and told them that the Yankees now threw in Hughes and that if they wanted Santana that they now had to give them Ellesberry.

Apparently the Sox told them to go shit in their hat.

So Olney thinks it'll be finalized w/ the Yankees sometime tomorrow.

[cougarjake13]

Olney, in his 50th different " inside scoop ", was saying on ESPN Gamenight that the Twins went back to the Redsox and told them that the Yankees now threw in Hughes and that if they wanted Santana that they now had to give them Ellesberry.

Apparently the Sox told them to go shit in their hat.

So Olney thinks it'll be finalized w/ the Yankees sometime tomorrow.

and so the yanks dominance begins anew

[TheGameHHH]

Olney, in his 50th different " inside scoop ", was saying on ESPN Gamenight that the Twins went back to the Redsox and told them that the Yankees now threw in Hughes and that if they wanted Santana that they now had to give them Ellesberry.

Apparently the Sox told them to go shit in their hat.

So Olney thinks it'll be finalized w/ the Yankees sometime tomorrow.

i would actually pay money to hear a conference call that had Theo on the line telling the Twins to "go shit in your hat"

[Bulldogcakes]

Latest on Johan (http://riveraveblues.com/2007/12/02/thoughts-on-melky-phil-and-johan/#comment-37127)


* Kat O’Brien at Newsday writes that the Yankees are feelin’ pretty good about their chances of landing Johan Santana. The deal, she says, would include Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera and a third, lesser prospect.

* Tyler Kepner of The Times notes that the Yanks and Twins are stuck on that third prospect. The Yanks are not willing to part with Dellin Betances, Alan Horne, Austin Jackson, Ian Kennedy or José Tabata, and it seems that the Twins are not so high on Melky Cabrera.

* Jon Heyman of Sports Illustrated notes that the Twins have asked specifically for Alan Horne or Austin Jackson. The Yanks will not budge on that issue, and it may become the deal-breaker. Boston does not seem willing to include Clay Buccholz or Jacoby Ellsbury so the Twins will have to decide what they want to do.


The Twins will be stupid to let the #1 pitching prospect in Baseball last year go over an A-Ball OF prospect. The Yanks would be stupid to overpay any more than they already have. The Twins won't do any better than this offer now or at next years trading deadline.

If I'm Brian Cashman, I have Billy Beane's number on speed dial. Strike a deal for Haren centered around Kennedy and either go with it or use it as leverage. Personally, I hope they go with a Haren deal. Let Santana pitch for the Twins next year and then go sign him as a free agent. Hughes could very well be the ace were looking for, I'll take my chances that he is.

[Dan 'Hampton]

Santana is going to pitch for someone other than the Twins next year. Bottom line- Yankees NEED him. Sox have been the little brother stirring things up this whole deal and it's terrific. You guys are going to find out in the next day who really is running that front office, and I hope for your sake and competitive balance that it's Cashman.
Hey and don't forget, don't put alot of stock in any of what the "insiders" say. Why should we expect that the fans would be privy to what goes on in negotiation. The only thing any of us are going to hear is what the respective front offices want leaked. Calm down it's going to be alright. Either that or your farm system is going to be deforested for one pitcher.

[Bulldogcakes]

You guys are going to find out in the next day who really is running that front office, and I hope for your sake and competitive balance that it's Cashman.

DS, we're Yankee fans. We don't give a flying fuck about competitive balance.

and the LAST person on earth who should bring it up is anyone who roots for the Red Sox.

[Dan 'Hampton]

That was sarcastic boss. Listen I'm really looking forward to the sox and yanks both loaded with good prospects playing ball with their own guys. If lil steinbrenner is allowed to unload all that cashman has worked for then why the hell is cashman still there? Obviously the Sox aren't going to unload Ellsburry and Buchholz for Santana and that shows they aren't serious about the deal. Things were going so well with your prospects and well now you have george's son trying to out do his dad in a strategy that hasn't won him anything. Welcome back to the mid 80's.

[spadanko]

Olney, in his 50th different " inside scoop ", was saying on ESPN Gamenight that the Twins went back to the Redsox and told them that the Yankees now threw in Hughes and that if they wanted Santana that they now had to give them Ellesberry.

Apparently the Sox told them to go shit in their hat.

So Olney thinks it'll be finalized w/ the Yankees sometime tomorrow.

things different today. Twins want kennedy, horne or Jackson as the third player. Yanks told twins forget it (but you know how that is) and that they may now turn to Haren.

[sailor]

things different today. Twins want kennedy, horne or Jackson as the third player. Yanks told twins forget it (but you know how that is) and that they may now turn to Haren.

that's crazy. so the yanks original offer of kennedy, melky and xxxx should now be kennedy, melky and hughes? ridiculous.

[Bulldogcakes]

Sunday staredown over Santana (http://www.startribune.com/blogs/christensen/?p=431)

But the Twins refuse to be intimidated. From La Velle’s insider (http://www.startribune.com/509/story/1585906.html):


The source said the Twins have made their demands clear to the Red Sox, Yankees and other clubs interested in Santana and they will not compromise. They are willing to risk trying to deal Santana in July, when the return could be less, or even risk watching him walk away as a free agent after the season, with only draft picks as compensation.

"refuse to be intimidated"? When did Brian Cashman become Tony Soprano?

As far as I'm concerned, the deal is dead. Now I just hope I'm right about it. Nobody, NOBODY trades the #1 PITCHING PROSPECT IN ALL OF BASEBALL, and now the neophyte Smith says its not enough. Fuck him, we should have never included Hughes in the first place and we'll be a better team with Haren and Hughes (and Horne in AAA) than we will with Johan and Kennedy (and Igawa as your 6th starter). You know Mussina will miss a month, if not lose his rotation spot altogether. There's no way I give up Horne AND Hughes.

[Bulldogcakes]

That was sarcastic boss. Listen I'm really looking forward to the sox and yanks both loaded with good prospects playing ball with their own guys. If lil steinbrenner is allowed to unload all that cashman has worked for then why the hell is cashman still there? Obviously the Sox aren't going to unload Ellsburry and Buchholz for Santana and that shows they aren't serious about the deal. Things were going so well with your prospects and well now you have george's son trying to out do his dad in a strategy that hasn't won him anything. Welcome back to the mid 80's.

Sorry, sarcasm is very hard to pick up online.

And its not exactly the mid 80's. Both Cashman and Girardi are very different than anyone who was around then. The entire landscape has changed with the luxury tax and revenue sharing. If this was the mid 80's, the Yanks would be trading Doug Drabek for Rick Rhoden or Jay Buhner for an over the hill Ken Phelps. Santana is in his prime and should remain a top pitcher for at least 3-4 more years if not more.

[JimBeam]

I don't understand why Cabrera is such a key cog in this trade.

Why do the twins want him ?

He doesn't have the potential star power that Cano may have and he surely doesn't replace Hunter especially since they now have Delmon Young.

I'd think the Twins would take a Cano and one of the pitchers.

Are the Yankees that unwilling to give up Cano for maybe the best pitcher in the game now ?

[TheGameHHH]

I don't understand why Cabrera is such a key cog in this trade.

Why do the twins want him ?

He doesn't have the potential star power that Cano may have and he surely doesn't replace Hunter especially since they now have Delmon Young.

I'd think the Twins would take a Cano and one of the pitchers.

Are the Yankees that unwilling to give up Cano for maybe the best pitcher in the game now ?

Yes, they've already told the Twins going into negotiations that Cano and Joba were off-limits.

[Bulldogcakes]

Red Sox offer Ellsbury (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3138088)

With the Minnesota Twins insisting on center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury in any trade for pitcher Johan Santana, the Red Sox have altered their offer and have told the Twins they are willing to include the outfielder.

But sources say the Red Sox have also told the Twins they will not trade left-handed pitcher Jon Lester and Ellsbury together in the package they are offering.

The Yankees, meanwhile, have informed the Twins that they are going to pull their offer off the table soon -- perhaps by Tuesday at the latest -- unless they get an answer.




What the choice for Minnesota may come down to, in the end, is this: Do they prefer Phil Hughes as the centerpiece player in a deal, or Ellsbury?

Wow. For the first time I actually think the BoSox might get him. Though this could also just be a ploy to get the Yanks to up their offer. The Twins are said to like Ellsbury more than Hughes, and they have plenty of pitching as it is. Smith might find this deal more attractive than what the Yanks are currently offering. Even if they do work out a deal, I want to see the Red Sox sign him for 25 mil per. I'll believe that when I see it.

[TheGameHHH]

Red Sox offer Ellsbury (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3138088)



Wow. For the first time I actually think the BoSox might get him. Though this could also just be a ploy to get the Yanks to up their offer. The Twins are said to like Ellsbury more than Hughes, and they have plenty of pitching as it is. Smith might find this deal more attractive than what the Yanks are currently offering. Even if they do work out a deal, I want to see the Red Sox sign him for 25 mil per. I'll believe that when I see it.

All I know is if the Red Sox get him the Yanks won't even come close to sniffing the world series in the next 5-6-7 years.

[Bulldogcakes]

All I know is if the Red Sox get him the Yanks won't even come close to sniffing the world series in the next 5-6-7 years.

Actually, he could be another Gagne for them. His numbers (though limited) are hideous in Fenway Park. And its not an accident. Lefty fly ball pitchers tend to do poorly in Fenway for obvious reasons. Lefty ground ball pitchers (Like Pettite) can do very well. Santana's a fly ball pitcher. Its a bad spot for him.

[JimBeam]

Game you really think Santana makes that big of a difference ?

Could keep the Yankees in check, with all this supposed great young pitching, for that long of a time ?

I wonder if the Sox did include Ellsberry in the deal if they'd then look into the option of signing Andruw Jones.

Probably not as they'd be spending a lot of money on Santana and might not be willing to pay Jones the kinda money he wants ( which he doesn't appear to be getting offered ) especially w/ what could be his declining abilities.

[Kevin]

Red Sox offer Ellsbury (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3138088)



Wow. For the first time I actually think the BoSox might get him. Though this could also just be a ploy to get the Yanks to up their offer. The Twins are said to like Ellsbury more than Hughes, and they have plenty of pitching as it is. Smith might find this deal more attractive than what the Yanks are currently offering. Even if they do work out a deal, I want to see the Red Sox sign him for 25 mil per. I'll believe that when I see it.

They took out Lester.. This to me makes no difference if it were both Els and Lester, then i would say, Sox are getting him.. But neither Elsbury or Lester beats Hughes alone.. So until they offer both, i really am not worried about it. Twins are gunna lose Garza and Santana, they need a top type pitcher back.. No way Twins like Elsbury more than Hughes.. That is a flat out lie to scare the Yanks.

[TheGameHHH]

Game you really think Santana makes that big of a difference ?

Could keep the Yankees in check, with all this supposed great young pitching, for that long of a time ?

I wonder if the Sox did include Ellsberry in the deal if they'd then look into the option of signing Andruw Jones.

Probably not as they'd be spending a lot of money on Santana and might not be willing to pay Jones the kinda money he wants ( which he doesn't appear to be getting offered ) especially w/ what could be his declining abilities.

yea, he makes a HUGE difference especially if the Yanks dont wind up with Haren. I don't really care how Santana fares during the regular season in fenway, but come October you can set up the rotation so he doesn't have to pitch in Fenway during crucial games.

[Bulldogcakes]

They took out Lester.. This to me makes no difference if it were both Els and Lester, then i would say, Sox are getting him.. But neither Elsbury or Lester beats Hughes alone.. So until they offer both, i really am not worried about it. Twins are gunna lose Garza and Santana, they need a top type pitcher back.. No way Twins like Elsbury more than Hughes.. That is a flat out lie to scare the Yanks.

The Twins have said all along they need position players more than pitchers, who they have lots of in AAA. To quote Buster Onley

What the choice for Minnesota may come down to, in the end, is this: Do they prefer Phil Hughes as the centerpiece player in a deal, or Ellsbury?

The answer to that is Ellsbury.

Lets face it, Melky is a nice player but nothing special. Hughes would be the only really special player in the package, and they don't need pitching as much as position players. As Yankee fans, we always feel we can go get position players through free agency. The Twins really can't do that. Ellsbury fills an immediate need better than the Yankee package does. His MLB comparison is Kenny Lofton, who was a hell of a player when he was younger. He can be an impact player in a teams attack.

I think the Twins will choose the Sox offer, unless they feel its too light overall and keep him until next year's trading deadline. But I don't think they'll do that. They're notoriously cheap and would likely want to save Santana's 13 mil for this year.

[Kevin]

The Twins have said all along they need position players more than pitchers, who they have lots of in AAA. To quote Buster Onley



The answer to that is Ellsbury.

Lets face it, Melky is a nice player but nothing special. Hughes would be the only really special player in the package, and they don't need pitching as much as position players. As Yankee fans, we always feel we can go get position players through free agency. The Twins really can't do that. Ellsbury fills an immediate need better than the Yankee package does. His MLB comparison is Kenny Lofton, who was a hell of a player when he was younger. He can be an impact player in a teams attack.

I think the Twins will choose the Sox offer, unless they feel its too light overall and keep him until next year's trading deadline. But I don't think they'll do that. They're notoriously cheap and would likely want to save Santana's 13 mil for this year.


Espn news just had one of their writers on.. I forget the name Rauch or something.. And just said evrything that i just said.. It makes no difference that Elsbury was put in insted of Lester.. He says everyone around baseball feels the sox are doing this to drive up the price. He thinks Twins will take the Yankee package.. And by the way, if he is Kenny Lofton then he is def not worth more than Hughes.

[Bulldogcakes]

http://nomaas.org/images/cashsalesman.jpg
http://www.nomaas.org/images/badinvestments.jpg
http://www.nomaas.org/images/preskennedy.jpg
http://www.nomaas.org/images/pavanowheel1.jpg
http://www.nomaas.org/images/proctor_arm.jpg
http://www.nomaas.org/images/drop138.gif

http://www.nomaas.org/images/strike_zone.gif
http://www.nomaas.org/images/strike_zone2.gif

http://www.nomaas.org/images/hughesavior.jpg

http://www.nomaas.org/images/PavanoInjuryBargain.jpg

Demographics of Fenway Park (in %)

GREEN - White Frat Kids
PURPLE - People with the last name "Sullivan"
ORANGE - African-Americans
MAROON - Pizza throwers
BLUE - Sober
http://www.nomaas.org/images/graph1.jpg

[Kevin]

Yanks set deadline for Santana (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/12/02/santana.talks/index.html)

I say good for them... They gave in on Hughes.. They arent gunna give up any other A prospect..

[lleeder]

Yanks set deadline for Santana (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/12/02/santana.talks/index.html)

I say good for them... They gave in on Hughes.. They arent gunna give up any other A prospect..

Yeah cause the Yankees always stick to their word...:dry::blink::wacko:

[Doctor Z]

Oh, like the time they told A-Rod his days in NY were over if he opted out.

And the time Cashman said trading Phil Hughes was not up for discussion.

Deadline my dick.

[Bulldogcakes]

Santana says he won't agree to trade during the season (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7517774)

According to major-league sources, Santana has informed the Twins that he would not waive his no-trade clause during the season, ending any chance that he could be moved before the July 31 non-waiver deadline.

Johan's pressuring the Twins

New York will withdraw offer for Santana on Monday (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/12/02/santana.talks/index.html)

NASHVILLE -- The Yankees have set a Monday deadline for the Twins to respond to their proposed trade of top young pitcher Phil Hughes, center fielder Melky Cabrera and a third prospect for superstar pitcher Johan Santana, SI.com has learned.

So assuming the Yankees strictly stick to their deadline, it is very likely there will be a resolution regarding Santana -- widely considered baseball's best pitcher -- by the end of Monday.

And the Yanks are pressuring the Twins. Good, I don't even care who gets him at this point. I just want all this drama to end. Hopefully the Yanks have a deal in place with Beane for Haren if the Twins let the deadline expire.

[Kevin]

Yea, i do not think they can go back on their word this time without lookin like a joke. At least with Arod he "went" back to them... Unless the twins then come back and say we will take a Kennedy and others deal, they cant go back..

[Bulldogcakes]

Oh, like the time they told A-Rod his days in NY were over if he opted out.

And the time Cashman said trading Phil Hughes was not up for discussion.

Deadline my dick.

If they have a deal for Haren in place, thats a VERY real deadline. The chips being discussed in this deal will likely be going to Oakland (minus Hughes) and they'd have to start all over again to make a deal. Plus, Boston could reduce their offer the second the Yanks pull out. Why wouldn't they? No one else is involved but them.

[Doctor Z]

.HOT OFF THE WIRE!

PETTITTE'S BACK IN '08! (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5347088.html)

[Bulldogcakes]

.HOT OFF THE WIRE!

PETTITTE'S BACK IN '08! (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5347088.html)

GREAT NEWS!!! Also gives the Yanks a bit more leverage in the Santana talks. As does this

Bedard Has No Interest In Extension With O's (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/01/AR2007120101394_2.html?nav=rss_sports)

Bedard and Haren available. The Yanks will land one of these three.

[Bulldogcakes]

THe Twins are catching it from all sides now. Santana says he won't agree to a trade in midseason. He also says he won't agree to any trade other than the Yanks or BoSox. THe Yanks say they'll pull their offer tonight. Haren just went on the block and now Bedard is available as well. If they plan on dealing Santana, it will need to happen very soon. If not, teams go elsewhere and their whole bargaining positions collapses.

[chubbyknuckles]

GREAT NEWS!!! Also gives the Yanks a bit more leverage in the Santana talks. As does this

Bedard Has No Interest In Extension With O's (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/01/AR2007120101394_2.html?nav=rss_sports)

Bedard and Haren available. The Yanks will land one of these three.

Beadrd is unbeleaveble , to have the season he did with that team. I just wonder if he's a leo mazzone product and will flounder without him.

[JPMNICK]

Pettite coming back
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071203/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bba_yankees_pettitte_5

[TheMojoPin]

OK, Yankees fans, please explain to me how the Hell you think the Yanks get the O's to trade Bedard to them. As good as Bedard is, he doesn't have the reputation of Santana to guarentee one of these m,ythical "only 2 teams can pay him" deals, ad he doesn't have a NTC, so why would the O's trade him to their division rival?

[chubbyknuckles]

OK, Yankees fans, please explain to me how the Hell you think the Yanks get the O's to trade Bedard to them. As good as Bedard is, he doesn't have the reputation of Santana to guarentee one of these m,ythical "only 2 teams can pay him" deals, ad he doesn't have a NTC, so why would the O's trade him to their division rival?

I can't see them making that trade either, but the orioles are a FUCKING disaster of a team, so never say never

[Jujubees2]

Yea, i do not think they can go back on their word this time without lookin like a joke. At least with Arod he "went" back to them... Unless the twins then come back and say we will take a Kennedy and others deal, they cant go back..

Yeah, he went back to the Yankees for more money and a longer contract when no one else was interested. Boy he must really have been crawling...

[Kevin]

Yeah, he went back to the Yankees for more money and a longer contract when no one else was interested. Boy he must really have been crawling...

Stupid misconception..

A.. Arod was going make 30mil the final 3 years of his deal.. will make 27per..
B.. Yanks were going to offered him 30mil a year before the opt out.. will make 27... And do not give me well he is gunna make 30+.. Because those are incentives.. Who knows if he will ever get that money.. And if he does, he will have had great years and have earned it..
C.. IT WAS THE 2ND DAY OF FREE AGENCY.. Its not like it was February and he had no offers.. To say that he had no one is not a fair assumption..


The difference of the Santana deadline and the Arod thing is.. There was NOBODY out there that could give you ARods production.. Here, You Have Bedard, Haren available.. You would have to deal for a 3b.. And dealing from ZERO leverage.. Where you got Arid for "Just" Money. And it made perfect business sense..

Example..

A decent 3b costs you 7 8 mil (Crede) Then to fill the hole more, they would have signed one of the Outfielders.. And that would cost 14-18 mil.. So your shelling out 22- 26mil a year anyway.. And your STILL not getting numbers that.. ARod gives you.. Not to mention what you get from jersey sales and ad sales... Plus that they a re opening up the new park..

Plus... the team would be MUCH weaker and some of the things that are happening, such as Andy coming back, and Johan wanting to come here.. Maybe would not be the case.. Maybe Andy says, they do not have enough to win.. Johan says he wants the Sox more because he wants to win, Andy says i do not want to be away from my fam unless i can win... Maybe Johan is more about the Money than Winning, But Sox will pay him too, so he would have preferred to go there.

You guys know at first i was for not bringing him back.. But when you sat there and saw the situation.. You knew it made no sense not to have him back.. And he knew that too. He will one of these days break out in the playoffs.. All the great ones do.. RJ did Bonds dis, He will.. You HAD to bring him back.. So the ARod and Santana situations are night and day, i my opinion..

[TheMojoPin]

*Ahem*

WHY DO YOU THINK THE YANKEES ARE ANY KIND OF FRONTRUNNERS TO GET BEDARD?

Teams within the same division almost always get shoved aside in big trades like that unless there are no other options. Bedard might as well not exist to the Yanks unless they're willing to just overwhelm the O's with an awesome offer that nobody can touch.

[Knowledged_one]

mojo its called pin striped colored glasses

reality does not exist in Yankee land

[JPMNICK]

mojo its called pin striped colored glasses

reality does not exist in Yankee land

most hardcore fans can not be objective about their team, just like parents have a hard time being objective about their kids.

[Jujubees2]

Kevin,

You can justify ARod coming back any way you like but the facts are his original deal was ten years for $252 million (he was going to get $30 due to deferred payments) and his new one is ten years for $275 million. I'm no mathematician but to me that is a raise. And it wasn't like the Yankees were competing with anyone for his services.

Of course, then there was Prince Hank:

New York, which failed to make the World Series in all of Rodriguez's seasons, has said it would not attempt to re-sign A-Rod if he opted out. Hank Steinbrenner, a son of Yankees owner George Steinbrenner, reiterated that point Monday, dismissing the possibility of negotiations.

"No chance," he said from Tampa. "Not if it's made official (filing letters on opting out). I haven't talked with Brian yet today."

from http://www.abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory?id=3787874

[Bulldogcakes]

Kevin,

You can justify ARod coming back any way you like but the facts are his original deal was ten years for $252 million (he was going to get $30 due to deferred payments) and his new one is ten years for $275 million. I'm no mathematician but to me that is a raise. And it wasn't like the Yankees were competing with anyone for his services.

Of course, then there was Prince Hank:

New York, which failed to make the World Series in all of Rodriguez's seasons, has said it would not attempt to re-sign A-Rod if he opted out. Hank Steinbrenner, a son of Yankees owner George Steinbrenner, reiterated that point Monday, dismissing the possibility of negotiations.

"No chance," he said from Tampa. "Not if it's made official (filing letters on opting out). I haven't talked with Brian yet today."

from http://www.abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory?id=3787874

For the 50th time, they did not attempt to sign him. He came back to them. It's really not that subtle or complicated that anyone attempting to be fair can't figure out the difference.

[Dan 'Hampton]

...and got a raise. Damn I wish I came back "humbled" like that.

[TheGameHHH]

For the 50th time, they did not attempt to sign him. He came back to them. It's really not that subtle or complicated that anyone attempting to be fair can't figure out the difference.

i think the main gripe people are sticking to is Hank saying there was "no chance" they'd resign him after he opted out. so even if he came back to them, Hank (if he was true to his word) should have told him to fuck off.

[Bulldogcakes]

*Ahem*

WHY DO YOU THINK THE YANKEES ARE ANY KIND OF FRONTRUNNERS TO GET BEDARD?

Teams within the same division almost always get shoved aside in big trades like that unless there are no other options. Bedard might as well not exist to the Yanks unless they're willing to just overwhelm the O's with an awesome offer that nobody can touch.

The Yank farm system is stacked with young talent right now, so I would think they have a good shot at whoever they go after. The Yanks just made a deal with the O's last year, sending pitcher SP Jaret Wright for RP Chris Britton. Its not unprecedented that they would deal with each other.

And again, whoever makes the best offer should get him regardless of where it comes from. Any thing less would be a disservice to your franchise. The very fact that McPhail is exploring a Bedard deal in the first place signals that he thinks he's quite a few years away from competing for the division. So the "division rivalry" stuff isn't exactly heated at this point.

Actually, it goes even further than that. The Yankee announcers call Camden Yards "Yankee stadium south" because so many transplanted NYers from DC and Yankee fans from South Jersey buy up those tickets. When the Yanks play the O's there are more Yankee fans in the ballpark than O's fans. Its one of the rare times Camden Yards sells out these days. So I don't see much animosity these days. There was talk a long time ago that Angelos and George Steinbrenner don't get along, but George doesn't run the club anymore and McPhail is said to have control over the baseball operations in Baltimore.

[Bulldogcakes]

...and got a raise. Damn I wish I came back "humbled" like that.

No he didn't.

He signed a 275 mil extension for 10 years. Thats 27.5 per.

His salary last year was 27.7 mil. (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=rodrial01)

And if you consider that 27.5 will be worth roughly 1/3 less 10 years from now than it is today when you factor in inflation, its a good deal for the Yanks.

[HBox]

The Yanks re-signed Jose Molina and DFA'd Andy Phillips.

[TheMojoPin]

The Yank farm system is stacked with young talent right now, so I would think they have a good shot at whoever they go after. The Yanks just made a deal with the O's last year, sending pitcher SP Jaret Wright for RP Chris Britton. Its not unprecedented that they would deal with each other.

And again, whoever makes the best offer should get him regardless of where it comes from. Any thing less would be a disservice to your franchise. The very fact that McPhail is exploring a Bedard deal in the first place signals that he thinks he's quite a few years away from competing for the division. So the "division rivalry" stuff isn't exactly heated at this point.

Actually, it goes even further than that. The Yankee announcers call Camden Yards "Yankee stadium south" because so many transplanted NYers from DC and Yankee fans from South Jersey buy up those tickets. When the Yanks play the O's there are more Yankee fans in the ballpark than O's fans. Its one of the rare times Camden Yards sells out these days. So I don't see much animosity these days. There was talk a long time ago that Angelos and George Steinbrenner don't get along, but George doesn't run the club anymore and McPhail is said to have control over the baseball operations in Baltimore.

Yes, anything is possible, but it's a fallacy to shrug off not getting Santana (if that happens) as if Bedard is easily had for the Yanks.

And your farm system isn't stacked. I've read up on those rankings, and the pitching side of it is up there mostly for the guys you have playing already. The offensive side of things is barren.

[Bulldogcakes]

i think the main gripe people are sticking to is Hank saying there was "no chance" they'd resign him after he opted out. so even if he came back to them, Hank (if he was true to his word) should have told him to fuck off.

I never saw Hank say that. What I always read was that they 'would not bid on him' or 'pursue him as a free agent'. Which they didn't do.

If you have any quotes I'm unaware of, please post them. From what I read they never went so far as to say they would never sign him under any circumstances.

[Bulldogcakes]

Yes, anything is possible, but it's a fallacy to shrug off not getting Santana (if that happens) as if Bedard is easily had for the Yanks.

I don't think any of the 3 (now 4 if you count Ben Sheets) big pitchers available will be cheap, I'm sure they'll all cost plenty, plus a hefty extension for whoever gets them. All I'm saying is the Yanks have the prospects to make these deals.

[Bulldogcakes]

The Yanks re-signed Jose Molina and DFA'd Andy Phillips.

Molina was the best backup catcher we've had in years. He's a perfect balance to Posada's intense style, and worked well with some of the young pitchers last year. Nice move.

[TheMojoPin]

I don't think any of the 3 (now 4 if you count Ben Sheets) big pitchers available will be cheap, I'm sure they'll all cost plenty, plus a hefty extension for whoever gets them. All I'm saying is the Yanks have the prospects to make these deals.

Plenty of teams have the prospects and ready now players to deal for Bedard. The Yankees are hardly head and shoulders above anyone in this regad, and their proximity to Baltimore is a further obstacle. The Yankees have no advantage here that other teams don't have, and are actually worse off in the overall run than most of those teams.

[HBox]

It will be harder for the Yanks to get Bedard simply because just about anyone with the prospects will be in on the bidding. Teams don't have to worry about him becoming a free agent next year like Santana.

[TheGameHHH]

I never saw Hank say that. What I always read was that they 'would not bid on him' or 'pursue him as a free agent'. Which they didn't do.

If you have any quotes I'm unaware of, please post them. From what I read they never went so far as to say they would never sign him under any circumstances.

go to the last page and look at JuJubees post, thats where i got the quote from. he posted the source.

[TheMojoPin]

No he didn't.

He signed a 275 mil extension for 10 years. Thats 27.5 per.

His salary last year was 27.7 mil. (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=rodrial01)

And if you consider that 27.5 will be worth roughly 1/3 less 10 years from now than it is today when you factor in inflation, its a good deal for the Yanks.

Dude, seriously?

That's not them "winning" anything. And you're leaving out all of his bonuses. And that there's no longer a nother team paying some of the money.

[Bulldogcakes]

A's might back up the truck (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove07/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=3138769)

"Billy has just been waiting to see what happens with Santana," said an official of one interested team. "Once that deal goes down, he's hoping he can pick up the pieces."

Haren and Blanton aren't the only A's in Beane's showroom. Huston Street, Dan Johnson, Mark Kotsay and the perpetually available Rich Harden -- to name a few -- all might be had eventually.

"If the Angels get Cabrera," one GM said, "Oakland might unload everybody. At that point, the Angels would be so loaded, it would be like a signal to Billy that it's time to rebuild."

[epo]

I don't think any of the 3 (now 4 if you count Ben Sheets) big pitchers available will be cheap, I'm sure they'll all cost plenty, plus a hefty extension for whoever gets them. All I'm saying is the Yanks have the prospects to make these deals.

From the sounds of it the Brewers are trying to move Chris Capuano rather than Ben Sheets. If somebody did go after Sheets, you are definitely right that it would not be cheap.

[TheMojoPin]

A's might back up the truck (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove07/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=3138769)

Yeah, I've been hearing for the last 2 days aout how the Cubs want Nick Swisher, which would make me prance around with glee.

Yes, PRANCE.

[epo]

Yeah, I've been hearing for the last 2 days aout how the Cubs want Nick Swisher, which would make me prance around with glee.

Yes, PRANCE.

Swisher is such a great hitter. You should prance if the Cubs get him.

Here in Beertown the rumblings have been around the Crew going after Huston Street or Joe Nathan. I might do a jig if that happened.

[JPMNICK]

Yeah, I've been hearing for the last 2 days aout how the Cubs want Nick Swisher, which would make me prance around with glee.

Yes, PRANCE.

i would love to have him on my team. In the games I saw him play last year, you can tell he is going to be a great talent

[Bulldogcakes]

Hank figures he can get the deal done by negotiating with the NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/03/sports/baseball/03yankees.html?ex=1354338000&en=ec2c7f758d83ffc5&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)

There are so many good quotes in that story, I just can't post them all. Here's a taste

“How can I go any higher?” Steinbrenner said. “What do they want — Hughes, Kennedy and Cabrera? I can’t do that kind of thing. It’s crazy. It’s suicidal. In the past 20 or 30 years, teams have always asked more from the Yankees than they have of anybody else, and that’s going to stop. I’ve made the best offer Minnesota is going to get, and the fact is, it’s an offer we can go away happy and they can go away happy.”

So Hank, how do you really feel?

[TheMojoPin]

Swisher is such a great hitter. You should prance if the Cubs get him.

I'd start with an offer of Rich Hill for him, I like Swisher that much.

Oh man, you wanna talk about crazy bargaining? Did any of you hear what supposedly went down in negotiations between the Angels and Twins?

Miguel Cabrera-3B-Marlins Dec. 2 - 3:07 pm et

SI.com's Jon Heyman reports that talks between the Marlins and Angels regarding Miguel Cabrera hit a roadblock when the Marlins asked for both Nick Adenhart and Ervin Santana in the deal.

The Angels were offering Howie Kendrick, Jeff Mathis, one of the two pitchers (Adenhart or Santana) and a mid-level prospect. Heyman thinks the Marlins would have to accept that offer for a trade to get done at this point, as the Angels are tired of negotiating with a team they thought they had deals with twice.
Source: SI.com

Jeez, Miami. Want much?

[cougarjake13]

[QUOTE=Bulldogcakes;1535816]

The Yanks just made a deal with the O's last year, sending pitcher SP Jaret Wright for RP Chris Britton. Its not unprecedented that they would deal with each other.

QUOTE]

yeh because trading bedard to the yanks is the same as wright for britton

[Bulldogcakes]

It will be harder for the Yanks to get Bedard simply because just about anyone with the prospects will be in on the bidding. Teams don't have to worry about him becoming a free agent next year like Santana.

Early handicapping has the Dodgers as the best fit. We'll see.

[Doctor Z]

So, uhh... How 'bout that deadline?

[sailor]

yeh because trading bedard to the yanks is the same as wright for britton

orioles haven't been a serious rival of the yankees in what, a decade? no reason to not trade with each other, the orioles are not a serious team.

[HBox]

I know this is crazy and Yankee fans would probably vomit if this happened after Pavano, but if the Yanks can get Rich Harden for relatively cheap in a fire sale i'd be all over that.

[TheMojoPin]

orioles haven't been a serious rival of the yankees in what, a decade? no reason to not trade with each other, the orioles are not a serious team.

It's still very rare when teams trade players of Bedard's capability within their division unless they hae to due to a NTC.

[epo]

So, uhh... How 'bout that deadline?

The Twins laugh at that silly deadline.

[Kevin]

Hank seriously needs to shut the fuck up.. He is really starting to be an embarrassment..

[Doctor Z]

Steve Somers reporting that John Heyman (who usually has his shit right) is saying that the Yankees and Twins are still talking, and apparently they want Horne AND Austin Jackson in addition to Hughes and Melky. I say FUCK THIS. Seriously... fuck this.

[HBox]

Looks like they made the trade. (http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2007/12/04/yankees-pick-up-reliever/)

[Kevin]

Steve Somers reporting that John Heyman (who usually has his shit right) is saying that the Yankees and Twins are still talking, and apparently they want Horne AND Austin Jackson in addition to Hughes and Melky. I say FUCK THIS. Seriously... fuck this.

Or kennedy..

And this is the latest entry in that pretty good ESPN winter meetings blog..

1:09 a.m., from Jayson Stark
• The Yankees' "by Monday night" deadline came and went. And Johan Santana was still a Twin when Tuesday arrived at the winter meeting. But even though the Yankees and Twins were still talking about different combinations as the night grew later and later, there was no indication that they were any closer to a deal for Santana than they were four days ago. In fact, if anything, the momentum seemed to be in the opposite direction. Officials from other clubs said several of the Yankees' baseball personnel at the meetings had begun openly questioning whether they even wanted to make this trade if the Twins said yes. "The more this goes on," said one AL executive, "the less they want to do it."

[Kevin]

And Hbox.. You are a SONOVABITCH!

Just saying..

[HBox]

And Hbox.. You are a SONOVABITCH!

Just saying..

What? Remember how good this worked out last year when they traded for a promising young reliever? How they kept him in the minors all year and pretty much never gave them a chance? Remember? This'll be awesome!

Seriosuly though, this guy is young and had great numbers last year. And he's heavy..... just like britton.

:wallbash::wallbash::wallbash::wallbash::wallbash: :wallbash::wallbash::wallbash:

[Bulldogcakes]

Officials from other clubs said several of the Yankees' baseball personnel at the meetings had begun openly questioning whether they even wanted to make this trade if the Twins said yes. "The more this goes on," said one AL executive, "the less they want to do it."

My feelings exactly. If they like the Boston offer better, go ahead and take it. I still think he'll be less effective in Fenway. But if they are turning down the Yankee offer and haven't accepted the BoSox offer yet, I would guess they're leaning toward keeping him for this year and then trading him at the deadline if they're out of it. He'll be much cheaper then, and we can keep Philip Hughes. If Horne gets off to a good start in AAA and gets some effective MLB experience, he could be the centerpiece at that point.

The way that this deadline has any teeth is if the Yanks go deal some of the pieces in this deal elsewhere, specifically Melky. Who was rumored in a deal for a reliever about a month ago. They can still always pick this up later, but you'd be starting all over again. Don't forget the Yanks and D-Backs had talks break down 2 or 3 times before they made the Johnson deal.

[Bulldogcakes]

What? Remember how good this worked out last year when they traded for a promising young reliever? How they kept him in the minors all year and pretty much never gave them a chance? Remember? This'll be awesome!

Seriosuly though, this guy is young and had great numbers last year. And he's heavy..... just like britton.

It looks like he turned a corner in AAA and continued to pitch well when he was called up. Could be a steal, and Clippard struggled in the bigs and when he was sent back down last year. He needed a change of scenery. I never liked Clippard anyway. He had 2-3 different deliveries for the same mediocre pitches, one where he would land toward the plate and the others toward the dugout. Very weird. He's a walk machine waiting to happen.

[Bulldogcakes]

From MLB trade rumors

Red Sox Making Progress On Johan Santana

UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 2:04am: Tim Brown checks in. He confirms the Twins are checking Lester's medical records. He says the current deal on the table is Lester, Crisp, Masterson, and a minor leaguer. A Red Sox official was said to be "cautiously optimistic." If the current scenario is accurate, perhaps the Twins have finally bent on their demand for both Lester and Ellsbury.

UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 1:57am: Rosenthal notes that the Sox have roared back into the Santana derby, but says that as midnight passed the Yankees were still talking to the Twins. Hmmm, maybe midnight eastern time because I think Cashman went to bed already.

UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 1:25am: Looks like things with the Red Sox are moving along - the Red Sox have given the Twins Lester's medical records to review.

UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 1:15am: Unconfirmed report from the Boston Globe says the Red Sox were looking at Santana's medical records, which could imply an agreement. Or maybe they just wanted to check out his medical records.

UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 1:06am: Hank Steinbrenner expressed doubt that his team would get a Santana team done when talking to Kat O'Brien. However, she spoke to him at 11:45pm CST on Monday, and we had two updates since then. Anyway, discussions are not yet closed off.

UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 12:49am: Bleeding over into Tuesday...Stark has an update that pretty much echoes Heyman.

UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 12:38am: SI.com's Jon Heyman has the goods. The Twins wanted a package of Hughes, Cabrera, Horne, and Jackson from the Yankees and they balked. They've asked the Red Sox to create a new proposal with Lester in it. Sounds like the Red Sox have the lead at the moment. Heyman thinks the Twins will make a decision soon.

Let them get him. I'm not giving them half the farm system. The Twins are idiots to take that package over the Hughes one.

[Kevin]

Sweeny was just on Joe and Eddie Colman (filling in for Evan) And people still seem to think that when its all said and done, he will be a Yank.. And these are all just games.. But the prevailing thought is Hank needs to shut the fuck up and let Cashman do his job.. This guy just does not shut up... I think if things do not change with him, Cashman is gone after this year.. He stayed because George gave him full control.. And now with Hank, that is not the case.

[Freitag]

The package the twins wanted was ridiculous, especially in a walk year.

As Stugots has said, WAIT FOR IT. I am perfectly happy with using this as a "rebuilding" year, and taking the chance next year on Santana. If he resigns with the Sox, so be it, they mortgaged the future for him.

THIS IS HOW WE GOT INTO TROUBLE LAST TIME.

[JPMNICK]

i would not give up those 4 for Santana... BUT if the sox do get him, you can pencil them in for another world series in the next 3 seasons.

[BeerBandit]

The package the twins wanted was ridiculous, especially in a walk year.

As Stugots has said, WAIT FOR IT. I am perfectly happy with using this as a "rebuilding" year, and taking the chance next year on Santana. If he resigns with the Sox, so be it, they mortgaged the future for him.

THIS IS HOW WE GOT INTO TROUBLE LAST TIME.

How would they be mortgaging the future with 28 yr old Santana, 27 yr old Beckett, 27 yr old Matsuzaka, 27 yr old Papelbon, 24 yr old Pedroia, and according to the "current deal on the table" retaining Bucholz and Ellsbury? In MLB, the future is 2 yrs. This team will be fantastic for at least 5 more. I wish the Mets had the prospects the Sawx do.

[Doctor Z]

Here's how I want next year's rotation to look:

Randy Johnson
Carl Pavano
Kevin Brown
Jeff Weaver
Roger Clemens

(I'd put Rocket higher up in the rotation, but he's getting kinda old.)

[Knowledged_one]

The package the twins wanted was ridiculous, especially in a walk year.

As Stugots has said, WAIT FOR IT. I am perfectly happy with using this as a "rebuilding" year, and taking the chance next year on Santana. If he resigns with the Sox, so be it, they mortgaged the future for him.

THIS IS HOW WE GOT INTO TROUBLE LAST TIME.

Its not really a walk year if they trade for him, as both teams are going to ask for a 72-hour negotiationg window to get an extension done, if no extension gets hammered out then neither team will make the trade

[HBox]

If that's what it would cost for the Yanks and the Red Sox get Santana for anything less than Lester, Ellsbury+, there's something seriously wrong there. It's good they walked away from that deal.

[Freitag]

How would they be mortgaging the future with 28 yr old Santana, 27 yr old Beckett, 27 yr old Matsuzaka, 27 yr old Papelbon, 24 yr old Pedroia, and according to the "current deal on the table" retaining Bucholz and Ellsbury? In MLB, the future is 2 yrs. This team will be fantastic for at least 5 more. I wish the Mets had the prospects the Sawx do.

We would be mortgaging our future as well. I will give you Papelbon, but as noted before, Beckett's 1 inch away from a rotator cuff/tommy john, Matsuzaka has shown me nothing.

Needless to say, the twins wanted a young fielder with a good arm and good bat, and three prized prosects. No. No. No. Not for just Santana.

The Hughes, Caberera, + prospect package was enough. They wanted Jackson too? I'd say "S in your H".

[HBox]

We would be mortgaging our future as well. I will give you Papelbon, but as noted before, Beckett's 1 inch away from a rotator cuff/tommy john, Matsuzaka has shown me nothing.

Needless to say, the twins wanted a young fielder with a good arm and good bat, and three prized prosects. No. No. No. Not for just Santana.

The Hughes, Caberera, + prospect package was enough. They wanted Jackson too? I'd say "S in your H".

I'd tell them take your BlackBerry, flush it down the toilet and fuck your mother.

[TheMojoPin]

Matsuzaka has shown me nothing.

Then you're blind. For his first year in the MLB, he did very well and held his own. Most people are predicting he'll do even better in his 2nd year.

Am I hearing right that the Yanks could get this done with Hughes, Kennedy and Melky? Jesus Christ, if so, DO THAT DEAL. That gives you a rotation of Santana, Pettitte, Wag and Chamberlain. Plug a warm body in as the 5th stater and that's a fantastic and proven rotation, AND you get rid of the dead weight that is Melky for one of the best pitchers going.

[Don Stugots]

We would be mortgaging our future as well. I will give you Papelbon, but as noted before, Beckett's 1 inch away from a rotator cuff/tommy john, Matsuzaka has shown me nothing.

Needless to say, the twins wanted a young fielder with a good arm and good bat, and three prized prosects. No. No. No. Not for just Santana.

The Hughes, Caberera, + prospect package was enough. They wanted Jackson too? I'd say "S in your H".

or "P in my B"

[TheMojoPin]

The Hughes, Caberera, + prospect package was enough.

Was it? Hughes was the only good part...the Yanks wated to give a decent prospect at best, nothing special, and it seems teams are realizing that Melky is as average to worse as he actually is despite the Yankees' hype. How is that deal enough to get someone like Santana, even with the NTC the Twins have to deal with?

[Freitag]

I'm offering a package of HBox, Stugots, and Rouski for Santana.

[JPMNICK]

Then you're blind. For his first year in the MLB, he did very well and held his own. Most people are predicting he'll do even better in his 2nd year.

Am I hearing right that the Yanks could get this done with Hughes, Kennedy and Melky? Jesus Christ, if so, DO THAT DEAL. That gives you a rotation of Santana, Pettitte, Wag and Chamberlain. Plug a warm body in as the 5th stater and that's a fantastic and proven rotation, AND you get rid of the dead weight that is Melky for one of the best pitchers going.

I could not agree more about DiceK. I know he had a semi-rough year compared to his expectations, but when you saw him on he was unstopable. I think he will be as good as Sanatana is now in a few years. he will work with their pitching coaches as well as the big league pitchers on his team and be a HUGE force.

[Freitag]

Then you're blind. For his first year in the MLB, he did very well and held his own. Most people are predicting he'll do even better in his 2nd year.

Am I hearing right that the Yanks could get this done with Hughes, Kennedy and Melky? Jesus Christ, if so, DO THAT DEAL. That gives you a rotation of Santana, Pettitte, Wag and Chamberlain. Plug a warm body in as the 5th stater and that's a fantastic and proven rotation, AND you get rid of the dead weight that is Melky for one of the best pitchers going.

"Dead weight"?

Granted, Melky isn't a superstar, but he's a servicable fielder who's a lot cheaper than Damon. He's also got very good defensive skills.

He's a lot of things, but Dead Weight is totally unfair.

And I just don't like Dice-K. Every time I see his stupid (literally, stupid. He looks DUMB on the mound) face I want to punch my TV.

[TheMojoPin]

"Dead weight"?

Granted, Melky isn't a superstar, but he's a servicable fielder who's a lot cheaper than Damon. He's also got very good defensive skills.

In terms of this deal and the player the Yanks would get in return, Melky is the dead weight. To put him out there as if he's part of it the Twins should be glad that they're being offered is absurd.

[TheMojoPin]

And I just don't like Dice-K. Every time I see his stupid (literally, stupid. He looks DUMB on the mound) face I want to punch my TV.

Hey, I'm all about not liking players...I think Pujols looks like a 37-year-old date rapist, but I'll still admit he's a great player. I'm not saying Dice-K is comparable talent-wise, but he can't just be dismissed because of personal dislike when it comes to evaluating the Red Sox' rotation.

[Doctor Z]

Has anyone mentioned the Clippard for bullpen help trade?

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071204&content_id=2317008&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp&c_id=nyy

I know nothing about Albaladejo. Is this a decent move?

[Knowledged_one]

Hey, I'm all about not liking players...I think Pujols looks like a 37-year-old date rapist, but I'll still admit he's a great player. I'm not saying Dice-K is comparable talent-wise, but he can't just be dismissed because of personal dislike when it comes to evaluating the Red Sox' rotation.

Not to mention that Dice-K ate innings and never got injured and missed how many starts 2 maybe 3.

Also Dice K had to get used to all the travel that is done in the majors as in Japan they dont travel nearly as much. Plus he's a world champ, i mean true he's no Hideki Irabu but he's at least serviceable