2008 New York Yankees Thread

[TheGameHHH]

alright.......its time to move on. everybody that bitched all year about torre, you got your wish. its time to reap what you sow. i hope youre satisfied with his replacement.

[Doctor Z]

Girardi or bust.

[Bulldogcakes]

http://itc.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/celebration6_3.jpg

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/2415327/2/istockphoto_2415327_celebration_toast_with_champag ne.jpg

http://a.abclocal.go.com/images/kgo/cms_exf_2005/news/nation_world/new_years_new_york_010106_lg.jpg

[Bulldogcakes]

alright.......its time to move on. everybody that bitched all year about torre, you got your wish. its time to reap what you sow. i hope youre satisfied with his replacement.

I hope you're satisfied with 12 years, you got what you wanted for a lot longer than I did.

[Doctor Z]

That rumor is the from the same playbook they used on Bernie last year. They offered him a spring training invite and a minor league deal knowing he wouldn't accept it. Thats their way of putting the onus on Joe. If he declines their offer, then Joe is the one walking away, no matter how crappy the offer is. Plus, they can defend the offer publicly saying it still makes him the highest paid manager in baseball, and the reduction in pay reflects his declining results.

Its just PR. That's their way of saying "We really don't want you back, Joe".

Solid call, BDC. Credit where credit's due.

[lleeder]

Buck Showalter bookends?:innocent:

[TheGameHHH]

I hope you're satisfied with 12 years, you got what you wanted for a lot longer than I did.

i was more then satisfied with the 12 years. unlike you i dont take October baseball for granted. i have zero sense of entitlement as a fan. playing playoff baseball is a privlege, not a right.

[TheGameHHH]

Solid call, BDC. Credit where credit's due.

absolutely, when i was in the car hearing the news the first thing i though of was, 'man, he called that shit dead on.'

[lleeder]

Steve Summers is playing some funny shit right now.

[BoondockSaint]

Somewhere, Suzyn Waldman is sobbing.

[Bulldogcakes]

i was more then satisfied with the 12 years. unlike you i dont take October baseball for granted. i have zero sense of entitlement as a fan. playing playoff baseball is a privlege, not a right.

What you said is 100% true, for every team other than the Yanks. The Yanks spend money for talent on a different level than any other team. They don't do that expecting nothing. If it was your money, you would expect to get better returns than the other teams who spent half (or less) than you did. When the other teams spend 200 mil+, then we can make a direct comparison of the Yanks against the rest of the league. So its fair for the Yankee brass to expect more, and many of their fans reflect that.

The Yankees are the only organization left in professional sports that accepts nothing less than championships. I like that about them. You won't get there, of course, but thats the goal every athlete or team should have. To be the best, not to blend in with the pack. They all say that, but none of them back it up like the Yanks. Every other league has done everything possible to dismantle the dynasties, socialist fucks that they are. Baseball has passed rule after rule that hurts the Yanks. Salary tax, amateur draft rules, etc. I appreciate the fact that George is willing to spend whatever it takes to win. So many owners don't feel the same way. And when another owner takes over this team, it could very well all change.

BTW-There's not a manager in baseball who would have turned down that contract EXCEPT for Torre. Incentives and all. Not a single one. Torre expects to have his 4 rings kissed, when the fact of the matter is he owes all of his success to the Yanks. Look at his record before he got here.

[Bulldogcakes]

absolutely, when i was in the car hearing the news the first thing i though of was, 'man, he called that shit dead on.'

Thank you, both of you.

Every once in a while I get lucky :wink:

[Tenbatsuzen]

When you look at what happened, it was only a million dollar paycut.

He makes the post season, he gets six million.

Meh.

[TheGameHHH]

What you said is 100% true, for every team other than the Yanks. The Yanks spend money for talent on a different level than any other team. They don't do that expecting nothing. If it was your money, you would expect to get better returns than the other teams who spent half (or less) than you did. When the other teams spend 200 mil+, then we can make a direct comparison of the Yanks against the rest of the league. So its fair for the Yankee brass to expect more, and many of their fans reflect that.

The Yankees are the only organization left in professional sports that accepts nothing less than championships. I like that about them. You won't get there, of course, but thats the goal every athlete or team should have. To be the best, not to blend in with the pack. They all say that, but none of them back it up like the Yanks. Every other league has done everything possible to dismantle the dynasties, socialist fucks that they are. Baseball has passed rule after rule that hurts the Yanks. Salary tax, amateur draft rules, etc. I appreciate the fact that George is willing to spend whatever it takes to win. So many owners don't feel the same way. And when another owner takes over this team, it could very well all change.

BTW-There's not a manager in baseball who would have turned down that contract EXCEPT for Torre. Incentives and all. Not a single one. Torre expects to have his 4 rings kissed, when the fact of the matter is he owes all of his success to the Yanks. Look at his record before he got here.

i get what youre saying but its apparent we have different views of this team from fan perspectives. i dont care if the Yanks spend a billion dollars on their roster, you should never feel like just because you spend x amount of dollars then you deserve to be somewhere. you do your talking on the field, not through your wallet. all im saying is just because your a fan of the Yankees you don't deserve to be playing baseball in October. you need to earn it like everybody else. you really dont think a man like torre deserves any credit for not panicing at 21-29? whatever, its not a big deal.......its just obvious we view things differently.

[Doctor Z]

Can I just know why Bernie was portrayed as a pussy for not showing up to spring training, but Joe Torre turning down this paycut paints him as a man of pride?

They both did the EXACT SAME THING. The organization basically expressed that they didn't want them back, but offered them something less in the interest of PR, and they rejected it. Joe, in fact, said "I wish Bernie had just come to spring training." Then when the same thing happens to him, he walks. But Bernie was being sour grapes and Joe is a proud man.

[TheGameHHH]

Can I just know why Bernie was portrayed as a pussy for not showing up to spring training, but Joe Torre turning down this paycut paints him as a man of pride?

They both did the EXACT SAME THING. The organization basically expressed that they didn't want them back, but offered them something less in the interest of PR, and they rejected it. Joe, in fact, said "I wish Bernie had just come to spring training." Then when the same thing happens to him, he walks. But Bernie was being sour grapes and Joe is a proud man.

i dont think anybody painted Bernie as a pussy, at least not any Yankees fans that i know. We all knew what Bernie's deal really meant, and so did Bernie. Torre's offer was a little different but the principle was relatively the same, except that with incentives Joe actually had the opportunity to make more money then he did this season. but to get back to the original point, who exactly called Bernie a pussy? cause i really didnt hear that

[BoondockSaint]

They should give Stump Merrill another chance.

[Doctor Z]

Well, like you said, I don't think a majority of the fans felt that way. But the media certainly painted it that way. Mike & Dog, ESPN, and even Torre himself, basically said "All he had to do was take the offer.'

[TheGameHHH]

Well, like you said, I don't think a majority of the fans felt that way. But the media certainly painted it that way. Mike & Dog, ESPN, and even Torre himself, basically said "All he had to do was take the offer.'

well, as that statement stands its true. to play, all he had to do was take the offer. i mean, they could have offered him $1 dollar. he would have turned it down, but to play all he had to do was take the offer. and screw the media, they make those claims strictly to produce headlines, fans need to see through that bullshit and most do.

[sailor]

like others said i don't think the offer was nearly an insult, but it is joe's right to turn it down. it happens. and like others have also said, i don't take playoff success for granted. given that, the yankees record the past 7 years has been better than their record during the first 5 years of torre's reign. people were way too down on him at the end. then again, i also thought they were way too high on him during the early years.

[Bulldogcakes]

I just had to post this again.

There's not a manager in baseball who would have turned down that contract EXCEPT for Torre. Incentives and all. Not a single one. Torre expects to have his 4 rings kissed, when the fact of the matter is he owes all of his success to the Yanks. Look at his record before he got here.

Think about it.

[Bulldogcakes]

i get what youre saying but its apparent we have different views of this team from fan perspectives. i dont care if the Yanks spend a billion dollars on their roster, you should never feel like just because you spend x amount of dollars then you deserve to be somewhere. you do your talking on the field, not through your wallet. all im saying is just because your a fan of the Yankees you don't deserve to be playing baseball in October. you need to earn it like everybody else. you really dont think a man like torre deserves any credit for not panicing at 21-29? whatever, its not a big deal.......its just obvious we view things differently.

Thats cool. It's nothing personal. I could argue sports all day.

Do you think Torre deserves any blame for being 21-29 in the first place? I heard Kevin Long on the radio say that Joe "Chewed the team out" in late May for playing like dogs. Said "He was too easy on them, they took advantage of him". And I agree totally, he never took April seriously, thats why they got off to 3 bad starts in the last 4 years. Then they have to break their asses in August and September just to get into the playoffs and ran out of gas in 05 and 06. Poor managing. A manager with a more consistent approach could have a comfortable lead by September and then be resting guys and getting them healthy heading into October. But Torre took the lazy approach, and his October results (4-13 last 17 playoff games) reflected it.

[TheGameHHH]

Thats cool. It's nothing personal. I could argue sports all day.

Do you think Torre deserves any blame for being 21-29 in the first place? I heard Kevin Long on the radio say that Joe "Chewed the team out" in late May for playing like dogs. Said "He was too easy on them, they took advantage of him". And I agree totally, he never took April seriously, thats why they got off to 3 bad starts in the last 4 years. Then they have to break their asses in August and September just to get into the playoffs and ran out of gas in 05 and 06. Poor managing. A manager with a more consistent approach could have a comfortable lead by September and then be resting guys and getting them healthy heading into October. But Torre took the lazy approach, and his October results (4-13 last 17 playoff games) reflected it.

he absolutely deserves blame for being 21-29, i just feel like im willing to do credit both sides of the spectrum. people do things like shit on him for starting out at 21-29 and dont praise him when he helps manage a very successful turn around. or people only praise his turn around and dont recognize that he is also partly responsible for their terrible start. i'm just not too hard on his april/may start simply because i dont feel like its totally his fault that 8/9ths of his line-up couldnt hit a god damn thing for two months. in hindsight he probably was too easy on them and they took advantage, for that he certainly deserves blame. but their jobs as professional ball players is to NOT be lazy and actually hit a baseball in the first two months.

[WRESTLINGFAN]

Girardi or bust.

Bowa all the way

[cougarjake13]

Bowa all the way

so basically billy martin returns again

[Bossanova]

Any Yankee hater should pray for Mattingly. The Mattingly Curse could run for at least 3 more years

[cougarjake13]

Any Yankee hater should pray for Mattingly. The Mattingly Curse could run for at least 3 more years

i'm fine with that, hell even if he isnt the mgr if he's still on the team it will continue

[Arch Stanton]

i'm fine with that, hell even if he isnt the mgr if he's still on the team it will continue

Good point. He has been there assisting for a while now.

[cougarjake13]

Good point. He has been there assisting for a while now.

i forget who it was on this board, maybe bulldogcakes or kevin but they posted mattingly's career which was the meat of world series sandwiches( they went the year before he started and the year after he retired)

obviously they had all that sucess from 96-00 and made the WS in 01 and 03

then once he joined the coaching staff in 2004 the yanks havent made it back

[Bossanova]

i forget who it was on this board, maybe bulldogcakes or kevin but they posted mattingly's career which was the meat of world series sandwiches( they went the year before he started and the year after he retired)

obviously they had all that sucess from 96-00 and made the WS in 01 and 03

then once he joined the coaching staff in 2004 the yanks havent made it back

Kevin also pointed out that Mattingly was hired into the farm system in 2001, so he was in thr organization when they blew the 2001 WS

[cougarjake13]

Kevin also pointed out that Mattingly was hired into the farm system in 2001, so he was in thr organization when they blew the 2001 WS

not that wikipedia is the greatest source of truisms but hee ya go

After retiring as a player, Mattingly spent seven seasons as a special instructor during Yankees' spring training in Tampa, Florida from 1997-2003.

Following the 2003 season, the Yankees named Mattingly the hitting coach. He spent three seasons in that role, receiving much praise from the Yankees organization and his players. Under Mattingly, the Yankees set an all-time franchise record with 242 home runs in 2004.

On October 26, 2006, Mattingly was promoted to being Joe Torre's bench coach, replacing Lee Mazzilli.


so he had some contact with the yanks during their sucess but only in spring training

[Kevin]

Kevin also pointed out that Mattingly was hired into the farm system in 2001, so he was in thr organization when they blew the 2001 WS

Yea.. 79-95 01-07.. gee what do all those years gave in common

Edit.. I never heard of him being in the system in 97.. But i could be wrong.. But i think 01 was his first year back..

[A.J.]

Somewhere, Suzyn Waldman is sobbing.

Why? Is Roger Clemens leaving too?

[Jujubees2]

To be the best, not to blend in with the pack. They all say that, but none of them back it up like the Yanks. Every other league has done everything possible to dismantle the dynasties, socialist fucks that they are. Baseball has passed rule after rule that hurts the Yanks. Salary tax, amateur draft rules, etc. I appreciate the fact that George is willing to spend whatever it takes to win. So many owners don't feel the same way. And when another owner takes over this team, it could very well all change.

What you're missing BDC is the great financial disparity in baseball. No matter what they do, the Milwaukee Brewers will never generate the local cable TV/radio fees that teams like the Yankees and Red Sox do. Therefore, those teams will have more to spend. Milwaukee will be able to draft and develop young talent but as soon as they are ready for free agency, they’re gone.

The NFL did it right thanks to the great Wellington Mara, with revenue sharing. He realized that without a vibrant team in Green Bay, the New York Giants would be worthless.

And please, George is not spending his money. He’s spending your money, the money you pay for the YES Network, the money you spend on tickets, etc.

And as we have seen over the past few years, the team with the most talents and highest payroll doesn’t always win.

[badorties]

so basically billy martin returns again

Bowa, Stottlemyre to join Mariners coaching staff?

Manager John McLaren says he is "very close" to finalizing his coaching staff.

From all indications, Mel Stottlemyre will become the pitching coach, Eddie Rodriguez the first-base coach, Norm Charlton the bullpen coach, Jim Riggleman the bench coach, and probably Larry Bowa the third-base coach.

The Mariners are expected to name the entire staff when all the pieces are in place. As of Thursday night, all but one of the selections had been finalized.

Source: MLB.com (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/rumors/post/Bowa-Stottlemyre-to-join-Mariners-coaching-staf;_ylt=Ao5xWUgQM.h7YH.3leW4zdMRvLYF?urn=mlb,498 70)

[Doctor Z]

Torre press conference going on right now. Torre straight up said he took the incentives as "an insult."

[JPMNICK]

joe looks very sad

[Freitag]

joe looks very sad

He ALWAYS does.

[Freitag]

Torre press conference going on right now. Torre straight up said he took the incentives as "an insult."

Well Joe, that how Yankee fans have felt about your bullpen management. An insult.

[badorties]

he's being pretty frank and candid, it's a bit refreshing

[spoon]

What you're missing BDC is the great financial disparity in baseball. No matter what they do, the Milwaukee Brewers will never generate the local cable TV/radio fees that teams like the Yankees and Red Sox do. Therefore, those teams will have more to spend. Milwaukee will be able to draft and develop young talent but as soon as they are ready for free agency, they’re gone.

The NFL did it right thanks to the great Wellington Mara, with revenue sharing. He realized that without a vibrant team in Green Bay, the New York Giants would be worthless.

And please, George is not spending his money. He’s spending your money, the money you pay for the YES Network, the money you spend on tickets, etc.

And as we have seen over the past few years, the team with the most talents and highest payroll doesn’t always win.

Absolutely a great fucking post, couldn't have said it better myself. Mara thought of the product as a whole, while George and Selig worry more about 4 teams in the main markets. Instead of the league doing well, a few teams drive everything and it's a very dangerous prospect. It's so refreshing when the big names don't make it at this point, but they're their every fucking year.

[Doctor Z]

Just admitted that in retrospect, he regrets not going out and pulling his players off the field during the 8th inning of Game 2.

[spoon]

Just admitted that in retrospect, he regrets not going out and pulling his players off the field during the 8th inning of Game 2.

yah, after it didn't work out for him..in retrospect. Give me a break.

[spoon]

Come on, someone bring out the Torre tears! Let's make this anti-christ weep like a bitch!

[King Hippos Bandaid]

Torre Will have a Job with FOX or ESPN, make 1/2 of what he would this year with the Yanks, and not have deal with that awfully owned Franchise

:king:

[JPMNICK]

by the end of the week he will have a book deal for 5 million to talk about the last 12 years

[spoon]

by the end of the week he will have a book deal for 5 million to talk about the last 12 years

I bet his book would sell really well and he'd land more money then that up front. The book companys would have a bidding war on their hands bc he's in essence a living legend.

[spoon]

On the streets!? Ahahahahaa!

[badorties]

the more he's talking, the less he seems happy about the situation

when asked if he'll come back in a ceremonial function, his reply was that's he not prepared to talk about it

[TheGameHHH]

i wanna punch this bitch in the face asking the silly family question

[spoon]

From the spanish language news and I'll ask the question in english ( and fucking ramble on and on)! Fuck you cunt.

[spoon]

i wanna punch this bitch in the face asking the silly family question

exactly

[HBox]

Torre was just asked if he would come back if for some ceremonial thing if the Yankees offered. He said he couldn't comment at this time. Which equals no. Which is telling and unfortunate.

[JPMNICK]

Torre was just asked if he would come back if for some ceremonial thing if the Yankees offered. He said he couldn't comment at this time. Which equals no. Which is telling and unfortunate.

time heals all, I am sure he will be there for things. this is a fresh wound

[spoon]

Torre was just asked if he would come back if for some ceremonial thing if the Yankees offered. He said he couldn't comment at this time. Which equals no. Which is telling and unfortunate.

Way too early for that question. He'll do it in time, but now he just got fired.

And what the fuck is with all these damn women asking stupid fucking questions about his "family", "wife" and "life". Fuck female sports writers.

[spoon]

time heals all, I am sure he will be there for things. this is a fresh wound

Yep yep.

[JPMNICK]

And what the fuck is with all these damn women asking stupid fucking questions about his "family", "wife" and "life". Fuck female sports writers.

jesus christ with them already. they fucking so. no one cares about him going food shopping and what his wife thinks. someone ask him what he thinks Posada, Mo, and Arod are going to do.

[TheGameHHH]

I'm gonna miss this guy, i dont care what people say.

[Doctor Z]

yah, after it didn't work out for him..in retrospect. Give me a break.

I'm not so sure that's a second-guess. I'm pretty sure everyone was screaming for him to pull Joba off the mound during that inning.

[spoon]

I'm not so sure that's a second-guess. I'm pretty sure everyone was screaming for him to pull Joba off the mound during that inning.

And the same "might" be true for E Wedge as well. Just saying.

[spoon]

Great question about Levine. I think that guy is a fucking tart, just like king george.

[TheGameHHH]

that was a great question about Randy Levine, the guy basically asked, 'where does randy get off saying some of the things he said?'

[JPMNICK]

that was a great question about Randy Levine, the guy basically asked, 'where does randy get off saying some of the things he said?'

you can see it a few times torre has wanted to go off about certain questions, and is restraining himself

[TheGameHHH]

today is just not a good day, late last night my high school baseball coach passed away after a decade long battle with cancer and now today the chapter is closing with my favorite baseball team and their manager.

[Doctor Z]

Reporter: "Which members of the Yankees front office do you think were in your corner?"
Joe Torre: "My balls smell like old pancake batter."


Very surprised by this response.

[spoon]

I've said it before but Torre is truly a good guy. I like how he's carried himself 99% of the time, especially compared to NYY brass. My thoughts on the contract being an insult are more geared toward 2 years wanted (not being a lame duck manager again) and not going through the spring training and all the work only to be fired if the yanks start slow and not having the second year to protect him. The incentive clauses are a joke at this point true, but I'm sure he really didn't want to come back on their terms...especially where they call him out and with George's comments during the ALDS. Low class.

There is a shot this was all planned out to give both sides a way out without anyone getting fired or anyone calling out the yank brass for not addressing the lack of winning series in the playoffs. It basically puts much less pressure on the next manager along with allowing Torre to walk away on his own with a decent contract on the table (highest in MLB for crying out loud). Call me a skeptic.

[spadanko]

Randy Levine is a cunt rag... george should fire him and hire torre for president

[HBox]

Reporter: "Which members of the Yankees front office do you think were in your corner?"
Joe Torre: "My balls smell like old pancake batter."


Very surprised by this response.

Reporter: "What terms were you willing to come back under?"
Joe Torre: (Walks over to reporter, grabs notebook from him, pats his cheek) "Good game buddy." (Motions to the bullpen for Scott Proctor)

[Doctor Z]

Joe's gonna be on the FAN with Mike & Dog in about 3 minutes.

[Doctor Z]

He just said he'd rather have been flat out fired than have the team offer him this disingenuous deal. That's a pretty heavy statement. More proof that the organization handled this disastrously.

[Snacks]

Way too early for that question. He'll do it in time, but now he just got fired.

And what the fuck is with all these damn women asking stupid fucking questions about his "family", "wife" and "life". Fuck female sports writers.

wow do women not deserve to be sports writers or involved in mens sports. There were 3 women that asked questions and 2 of the 3 asked about his wife. Who the fuck cares about his wife?

My comments arent sexist they are true. There some things men shouldnt do and some women shouldnt and this is one of them. If a women wants to write about sports, go write womens sports. Now that women go in football, baseball, basketball etc locker rooms it has made it different for the players to relax after a game. They now need to be respectful, not curse, be dressed, and not unwind. They need to be on their best behavior and if they arent women get offended and or sue.

[Kevin]

There is a shot this was all planned out to give both sides a way out without anyone getting fired or anyone calling out the yank brass for not addressing the lack of winning series in the playoffs. It basically puts much less pressure on the next manager along with allowing Torre to walk away on his own with a decent contract on the table (highest in MLB for crying out loud). Call me a skeptic.

I agree 100% with that notion.. I think that the minute they thought it necessary to put in rules to protect a pitcher from the manager, is the day they decided to fire him.. I fucking hate Francessa.. He is so up in arms only because he lost one of the main places he could go to for Yankee news before everyone else. And He lost the manager spot.. You never know if the Next manager decides to go to ESPN for his weekly manager spot.. Mike is not a fan of any team, he is a fan of himself. He proved that by rooting for the Cowboys because of Bill.. I don't know about you, but no one can make me root for my rival, if i really was a fan of a team. Hearing all of this Torre kiss ass kissing, and then the sheep fans calling and saying the same shit because all they know is how to follow, is sickening.. Any one with a brain could see Torre has been a TERRIBLE manager for years and years now. So its ok to make championship manger money when your making money.. But not ok to not make it when your not?? IN WHAT FUCKING PLANET?? I agree the incentives were a joke, but the 5mil was fair, but like you said Spoon, manybe they were put there so Torre can have a reason to turn down the deal and not look greedy. And BTW Mike is a douchebag and he likes turtles!

Reporter: "What terms were you willing to come back under?"
Joe Torre: (Walks over to reporter, grabs notebook from him, pats his cheek) "Good game buddy." (Motions to the bullpen for Scott Proctor)

Funny shit

[HBox]

Pete Abraham wrote in his blog that during Spring Training Randy Levine called all the beat writers together and tried to convince them to write a story about all of his accomplishments since joining the Yankees. The worst thing to come out of all this is that this douchebag seems to have gained a lot of power.

[spoon]

Pete Abraham wrote in his blog that during Spring Training Randy Levine called all the beat writers together and tried to convince them to write a story about all of his accomplishments since joining the Yankees. The worst thing to come out of all this is that this douchebag seems to have gained a lot of power.

Just what are those accomplishments?

[Doctor Z]

Randy Levine is a piece of shit, and I want him out of the Yankees organization as soon as possible. Unfortunately, that day doesn't seem to be anywhere in the foreseeable future. He's not a baseball man, he's a business man. He's a disingenuous jackass and has no concept of respect or dignity.

[HBox]

Just what are those accomplishments?

That's why no one wrote it.

[lleeder]

Just what are those accomplishments?

Masterminding Joe Torre's exit. :devil2:

[K.C.]

Pete Abraham wrote Rivera is now more determined then ever to test the free agent market.

I hope, in my delusional mind, to see him in red pinstripes next season.

And if by some chance that happens, I can't thank that Yankees cabal of power enough for burning bridges with their veteran players.

[Bulldogcakes]

I've said it before but Torre is truly a good guy. I like how he's carried himself 99% of the time, especially compared to NYY brass.

Every time I hear someone mention how "classy" Torre is, the implication is that the rest of the Yankee organization is not (sometimes they even come out and say it) So when many in the media are praising Torre, they're also giving a back handed slap to the Yankee brass.

And fuck them in the ass. I don't give a fuck how non Yankee fans feel about my team, and stopped caring a long time ago. They like Yankees when they lose with class, but when they win its always "there's something wrong with baseball, the Yanks are winning again" lets change the rules again to stop them. Yankee haters are part of being a Yankee fan, but don't ask me as a Yankee fan to support anything to make them happy. Its a losing proposition, and the front office should be smart enough not to fall for it.

[HBox]

Every time I hear someone mention how "classy" Torre is, the implication is that the rest of the Yankee organization is not (sometimes they even come out and say it) So when many in the media are praising Torre, they're also giving a back handed slap to the Yankee brass.

And fuck them in the ass. I don't give a fuck how non Yankee fans feel about my team, and stopped caring a long time ago. They like Yankees when they lose with class, but when they win its always "there's something wrong with baseball, the Yanks are winning again" lets change the rules again to stop them. Yankee haters are part of being a Yankee fan, but don't ask me as a Yankee fan to support anything to make them happy. Its a losing proposition, and the front office should be smart enough not to fall for it.

This was a cowardly way to get rid of Torre. They tried and failed to create the illusion that they really wanted him back but its easy to see through it. this is not the way George would have gotten rid of him. They should have either fired him or gave him a real offer. This whole incentive thing is a ruse. Its rarely ever used in coaches contracts and the Yanks have had a policy not to use it in player contracts either. It came out of nowhere and really makes no sense. It would make no difference. Not to mention giving him a one year deal would have just made the whole next year a nightmare for everyone involved.

They didn't treat Torre with the respect he deserved. I didn't want him back, and I'm still glad he's gone, but I'm not at all proud of what's happened the last two days. At the least its going to force them to overpay for Rivera and Posada which could lead to very painful last year's of each of their deals. At most they could be gone along with Pettitte.

[Bulldogcakes]

He just said he'd rather have been flat out fired than have the team offer him this disingenuous deal. That's a pretty heavy statement. More proof that the organization handled this disastrously.

In a day filled with bullshit, that was one of the toppers. First of all, his contract was expiring so he wouldn't have been fired. They would simply not renew his deal and hire someone else.
Second of all, Fatso and Fruit Loops would have KILLED the Yanks if they did that, however Torre personally feels about it. The notion that was sellable from a PR standpoint is ridiculous. With the way the Yanks did it, at least they can say they offered him a deal and Torre turned it down. We all know why they did it, they didn't really want him back, but it spreads the blame around somewhat. The reality is there is no good way to get rid of Joe, he's too popular. Whatever way they did it they would draw criticism from the Torre backers in the media.

[HBox]

Abraham is reporting that Cashman said that the current candidates are Tony Pena, Don Mattingly and Joe Girardi. Not surprising. trey Hillman would have been considered but the Royals hired him. With the backlash Torre's departure is causing I'm beginning to think that Mattingly is the only real candidate that could weather it.

[Bulldogcakes]

This was a cowardly way to get rid of Torre. They tried and failed to create the illusion that they really wanted him back but its easy to see through it. this is not the way George would have gotten rid of him. They should have either fired him or gave him a real offer. This whole incentive thing is a ruse. Its rarely ever used in coaches contracts and the Yanks have had a policy not to use it in player contracts either. It came out of nowhere and really makes no sense. It would make no difference. Not to mention giving him a one year deal would have just made the whole next year a nightmare for everyone involved.

Again, not reading my previous posts. I said all of that about a week ago.

I'm hurt, I might start crying . . . . . you know H-Box, its not about the money. Its about "commitment" and "showing you trust me". I was very hurt by how this all went down between us. I wish you would have just broke up with me instead of lying to me like that. . .

Was he employed by the Yankees or DATING them? I cant tell the difference.

[Kevin]

As i said to someone just now..


The funniest shit to come out today was when Mike goes.. Well Girardi could be here for a decade.. Russo.. I think the Yankees know that and thats why they won't do it.. They want Matingly in a few years from now.. So the will chose someone else.. errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr WHAT??? The Yanks want the next guy to be here for a decade you fucking homo loon. That would mean they were right about Torre..

I do not like how they did it.. Just let the guy go and fuck what people say.. You dont give a shit what people say when you continue to spend twice as much as any other team.. Yet you gave a shit about this now?? Thats why i think Spoony's theory of them doing this on purpose is right on the money. I think when they figured he was gunna let go, his supporters (Led by Cashman)convinced his non supporters(Led by Levine) to at least let him go with dignity.. I am really starting to feel that TORRE then ran with it and made it his story.. Led by his two boy friends, Mike and Chris, To get sympathy Why else would they make the man come all the way to Tampa if they were not going to renegotiate?? I do not think we will ever know the true story of this.. And Mike's Idiotic theory of .. Well if the Yankees do not make the playoffs next year, they will beg Torre back.. NO FUCKING WAY, YOU FAT BASTARD. That will never happen.

[HBox]

I think Torre went down to Tampa because he thought he could talk George back into giving him the job back again. Except that he went down there and found that George was no longer in charge and that Hank and Hal were on Levine's side. I think it's as simple as that.

[Kevin]

I think Torre went down to Tampa because he thought he could talk George back into giving him the job back again. Except that he went down there and found that George was no longer in charge and that Hank and Hal were on Levine's side. I think it's as simple as that.

Then it was his own fault.. He was on that plane with Cashman.. I am sure he told him its useless.. And why would he think he can talk to George?? George has been wanting to fire him for years. He thought he was getting bigger then him...

[sailor]

This was a cowardly way to get rid of Torre. They tried and failed to create the illusion that they really wanted him back but its easy to see through it. this is not the way George would have gotten rid of him. They should have either fired him or gave him a real offer. This whole incentive thing is a ruse. Its rarely ever used in coaches contracts and the Yanks have had a policy not to use it in player contracts either. It came out of nowhere and really makes no sense. It would make no difference. Not to mention giving him a one year deal would have just made the whole next year a nightmare for everyone involved.

They didn't treat Torre with the respect he deserved. I didn't want him back, and I'm still glad he's gone, but I'm not at all proud of what's happened the last two days. At the least its going to force them to overpay for Rivera and Posada which could lead to very painful last year's of each of their deals. At most they could be gone along with Pettitte.

great points. glad someone's thinking on this board.

[Bulldogcakes]

As i said to someone just now..


The funniest shit to come out today was when Mike goes.. Well Girardi could be here for a decade.. Russo.. I think the Yankees know that and thats why they won't do it.. They want Matingly in a few years from now.. So the will chose someone else.. errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr WHAT??? The Yanks want the next guy to be here for a decade you fucking homo loon. That would mean they were right about Torre...

I heard that too, and was just as floored as you were.

You got it backwards though, Dog said they would put Girardi in next because it would be easier to fire him when this whole cockamamie idea backfires. Since of course, they realize that Torre is the only man alive on planet earth who could POSSIBLY, EVER coach this hideous, awful baseball team. Knowing what a huge mistake they just made, they'd hire Girardi. :blink:

[HBox]

Then it was his own fault.. He was on that plane with Cashman.. I am sure he told him its useless.. And why would he think he can talk to George?? George has been wanting to fire him for years. He thought he was getting bigger then him...

But he never did fire him. When it came down to it Torre always remained. This year it's clear that the power balance is shifting away from him. I don't see why this whole thing is Torre's fault because he wanted to make one last ditch effort to keep his job.

But forgetting that, could you imagine how much uglier this whole thing could have been if they fired him OVER THE PHONE? That, on top of everything else, would have been the ultimate slap in the face. If anything, Torre saved the Yanks from further embarrassment by going down there.

[Kevin]

I heard that too, and was just as floored as you were.

You got it backwards though, Dog said they would put Girardi in next because it would be easier to fire him when this whole cockamamie idea backfires. Since of course, they realize that Torre is the only man alive on planet earth who could POSSIBLY, EVER coach this hideous, awful baseball team. Knowing what a huge mistake they just made, they'd hire Girardi. :blink:

No i heard it right, it was Dog who said they won't hire Giradi because he might be here a decade.. I was so floored by it that i can't forget it.. He said they would hire a Pena because he could be easily fired..

[Kevin]

But he never did fire him. When it came down to it Torre always remained. This year it's clear that the power balance is shifting away from him. I don't see why this whole thing is Torre's fault because he wanted to make one last ditch effort to keep his job.

But forgetting that, could you imagine how much uglier this whole thing could have been if they fired him OVER THE PHONE? That, on top of everything else, would have been the ultimate slap in the face. If anything, Torre saved the Yanks from further embarrassment by going down there.

Yea i agree over phone thing.. Good point there..

Like i said, i hate how they did it, but i am happy they did.. It had to be done.

[Bulldogcakes]

Abraham is reporting that Cashman said that the current candidates are Tony Pena, Don Mattingly and Joe Girardi. Not surprising. trey Hillman would have been considered but the Royals hired him. With the backlash Torre's departure is causing I'm beginning to think that Mattingly is the only real candidate that could weather it.

Please. This will all be forgotten about in a week. The Yanks are saying goodbye to their old stadium and building a new one. If anyone is stupid enough to cancel their tickets I will gladly take them and sell them for double the face value on Stubhub.

Remember that guy who was on late nights? The guy who could never be replaced? He did the golf swing thing when his jokes bombed . . . what was his name again? Jerry Carlson? Johnny Jackson? What was his name again . . . . . . .

"Graveyards are filled with irreplaceable men"-Charles de Gaulle

[Bulldogcakes]

No i heard it right, it was Dog who said they won't hire Giradi because he might be here a decade.. I was so floored by it that i can't forget it.. He said they would hire a Pena because he could be easily fired..

Maybe I'm wrong. It makes no sense either way.

[HBox]

No i heard it right, it was Dog who said they won't hire Giradi because he might be here a decade.. I was so floored by it that i can't forget it.. He said they would hire a Pena because he could be easily fired..

I saw that too. He did say Girardi could be here for a decade, you know, like it's a bad thing. If he's here for a decade THAT MEANS HE'S PROBABLY PUTTING UP TORRE NUMBERS YOU NUMBSKULLS! They were acting like getting Mattingly in there as manager was more important than winning.

[HBox]

You guys might think I'm nuts but I'd accept La Russa. At the very least in terms of bullpen management one extreme to another. He'd be like a fucking genius compared to Torre.

[Bulldogcakes]

But he never did fire him. When it came down to it Torre always remained. This year it's clear that the power balance is shifting away from him. I don't see why this whole thing is Torre's fault because he wanted to make one last ditch effort to keep his job.

But forgetting that, could you imagine how much uglier this whole thing could have been if they fired him OVER THE PHONE? That, on top of everything else, would have been the ultimate slap in the face. If anything, Torre saved the Yanks from further embarrassment by going down there.

No its not. Thats another thing everyone keeps repeating as if we were all born yesterday. Cashman has always said for years that "Hiring and firing managers is not my call" that is done by George and the folks in Tampa. This represents no change in his status whatsoever. The A-Rod thing is such a huge deal that he has to get together with Tampa on it and they have to have an entire negotiating strategy with contingency plans if talks fail. All other player decisions are Cashmans, I've seen no evidence that has changed.

[HBox]

No its not. Thats another thing everyone keeps repeating as if we were all born yesterday. Cashman has always said for years that "Hiring and firing managers is not my call" that is done by George and the folks in Tampa. This represents no change in his status whatsoever. The A-Rod thing is such a huge deal that he has to get together with Tampa on it and they have to have an entire negotiating strategy with contingency plans if talks fail. All other player decisions are Cashmans, I've seen no evidence that has changed.

I was referring to George. I think this was a more Levine driven decision. As far as Cashman I certainly hope he is still in charge as far as player decisions go.

[Kevin]

I was referring to George. I think this was a more Levine driven decision. As far as Cashman I certainly hope he is still in charge as far as player decisions go.

Anyone know the reason why Levine and Torre hated eachother so much?? Well Levine Torre more.. Because i am sure most people hate Douche Levine..

[HBox]

Anyone know the reason why Levine and Torre hated eachother so much?? Well Levine Torre more.. Because i am sure most people hate Douche Levine..

Nope. There has to be something interesting there.

[BoondockSaint]

From Abraham's blog:

Busy Friday night as Yankees team president Randy Levine just returned a call. Here are his thoughts on several topical subjects:

On Joe Torre being “insulted” by the contract offer: “There was no intent to insult Joe, we all have tremendous respect for him. He has had incentive clauses in previous contracts with the Yankees. We were all stunned and remain stunned that he turned the deal down.”


I love this Levine guy. He seems like a real straight shooter.

[Kevin]

From Abraham's blog:




I love this Levine guy. He seems like a real straight shooter.

He really is the Rich Vos of baseball execs.

[HBox]

I didn't like Levine before this all happened and I don't even remember why. He just always came off as a slimy douche. I hope he goes back to focusing on the business side. You can't have any complaints about his performance there.

[spoon]

Marketing the yanks, now there's a tough job! Come on H, they have at least four national networks now (ESPN, ESPN2, ESPN News, YES). And BDC is out of his fucking mind...again! Surprise.:wallbash:

[Bulldogcakes]

I was referring to George. I think this was a more Levine driven decision. As far as Cashman I certainly hope he is still in charge as far as player decisions go.

Oh, then I misunderstood. George is clearly stepping back and letting his sons take over day to day operations.

[lleeder]

But he never did fire him. When it came down to it Torre always remained. This year it's clear that the power balance is shifting away from him. I don't see why this whole thing is Torre's fault because he wanted to make one last ditch effort to keep his job.

But forgetting that, could you imagine how much uglier this whole thing could have been if they fired him OVER THE PHONE? That, on top of everything else, would have been the ultimate slap in the face. If anything, Torre saved the Yanks from further embarrassment by going down there.

Its better than a text message firing. :wink:

[Kevin]

Its better than a text message firing. :wink:

Or the post it firing...

[BoondockSaint]

Or the post it firing...

Pat Reilly would have faxed it to him.

[Bulldogcakes]

I didn't like Levine before this all happened and I don't even remember why. He just always came off as a slimy douche. I hope he goes back to focusing on the business side. You can't have any complaints about his performance there.

Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani today announced a key appointment in City Hall. Randy L. Levine will become Deputy Mayor for Economic Development, Planning and Administration

Maybe this? (http://www.nyc.gov/html/om/html/97/sp288-97.html)

[HBox]

Marketing the yanks, now there's a tough job! Come on H, they have at least four national networks now (ESPN, ESPN2, ESPN News, YES). And BDC is out of his fucking mind...again! Surprise.:wallbash:

Well I assume that he had a part in creating YES.

[Bulldogcakes]

Well I assume that he had a part in creating YES.

I wish. I could use 3 bil.

[lleeder]

Maybe this? (http://www.nyc.gov/html/om/html/97/sp288-97.html)

So you're saying Rudy indirectly fired his man crush? :wub::banning::surrender:

[lleeder]

Well I assume that he had a part in creating YES.

He came up with the Y part.

[Bulldogcakes]

So you're saying Rudy indirectly fired his man crush? :wub::banning::surrender:

No, maybe thats why H didn't like him. He was a Rudy crony.

[Bulldogcakes]

He came up with the Y part.

I wanted to call it the "NO" Network, but that idea was shot down immediately.

[HBox]

I wanted to call it the "NO" Network, but that idea was shot down immediately.

But it was an improvement over the Yankee Crankee network.

[Doctor Z]

Tongiht, I toasted to Joe. Lord knows I've called for his head enough times, but now that's he actually gone, it's certainly a sad day. You can't not love the guy. Here's to Joe.

I'm wasted.

[K.C.]

Marketing the yanks, now there's a tough job! Come on H, they have at least four national networks now (ESPN, ESPN2, ESPN News, YES). And BDC is out of his fucking mind...again! Surprise.:wallbash:

Don't forget ESPN Deportes...Latin America is a hotbed

:happy:

[K.C.]

Honestly, I don't know why the Yankees don't consider Bowa for the job.

If Mattingly's the guy you want long-term, but he claims he's not ready yet, give Bowa a two-year deal

It'd be a definite change of pace from what Torre or Mattingly would be in the dugout. If it sparks the team, great. If not...you won't have to tie him in to a lot of years or dollas, so he's easily disposable.

And then you bring in Donny Baseball and all of a sudden he's the guy following Bowa, not the guy following Torre, which is a tremendous difference in terms of the media.


If they go after Girardi or LaRussa, or one of the prime manager candidate out there, you're going to probably have to commit to more years. Now if either one of those two are the guys you want in place long-term, then by all means...but that's not what's been indicated lately.

It would just seem like a decent plan for the short term.

[Tenbatsuzen]

Well I assume that he had a part in creating YES.

So we can hate him for Ultimate Yankee Roadtrip?

[Tenbatsuzen]

Tongiht, I toasted to Joe. Lord knows I've called for his head enough times, but now that's he actually gone, it's certainly a sad day. You can't not love the guy. Here's to Joe.

I'm wasted.

Agreed. There's a lot of corollaries between Joe and Pennington. You may have issues with his on-the-field performance, but when he's gone, you admit that deep down, he was a good person and very likable.

[JimBeam]

Here's what I don't understand because maybe it's a Yankee fan thing.

Why is it that the yankees owe Torre anything ?

Why isn't it that Torre owes them everything ?

Here's a guy that was fired from 3 previous jobs and had a sub .500 career record before getting to the Yankees.

The Yankees took him from the scrap heap and gave him the #1 franchise which happnened to win 4 of 5 titles.

When did Torre because the genius manager ?

Where was this out pouring for him when he was let go from the Mets, Braves and Cardinals ?

I want nothing more than for him to get another job, on a team w/ a $50 million dollar payroll, and see his great managerial style turn them around.

[Doctor Z]

Where was this out pouring for him when he was let go from the Mets, Braves and Cardinals ?

When has there ever been an outpouring for someone who hasn't done anything yet?

That's like saying "Where was the appreciation for Einstein when he was 14?"

[keithy_19]

When has there ever been an outpouring for someone who hasn't done anything yet?

That's like saying "Where was the appreciation for Einstein when he was 14?"

He was a good lad. Just couldn't seem to pass those math classes.

[TheGameHHH]

When has there ever been an outpouring for someone who hasn't done anything yet?

That's like saying "Where was the appreciation for Einstein when he was 14?"

couldnt have put that better if i tried. you dont get praise when you dont do anything. I'm done talking about Joe, I'm going to miss him and if it were up to me he'd still be the manager. Sadly, even though the Yankees should employee me, it's not my call and i'm gonna move on.

[JimBeam]

But why does he get credit for the wins but not the losses ?

Who's to say Showalter wouldnt have wone 5 out of 5 ?

How much credit for wins/losses any manager gets is up for debate but they surely shouldnt get credit for only the good times.

He presided over the biggest collapse in a short series in the history of sports and followed that up w/ 3 straight first round losses. Why shouldnt he be held accountable for that ?

He was given the keys to a 200 million dollar operation and failed to bring it to its full potential.

With that kinda payroll just making the playoffs shouldnt be acceptable and the Yankees don't owe Torre a damn thing.

If he's a Hall Of Fame manger it's because of the situation he was given and not what he made of it because if he's a genius he wouldnt have been let go from 3 other jobs.

[TheGameHHH]

But why does he get credit for the wins but not the losses ?

Who's to say Showalter wouldnt have wone 5 out of 5 ?

How much credit for wins/losses any manager gets is up for debate but they surely shouldnt get credit for only the good times.

He presided over the biggest collapse in a short series in the history of sports and followed that up w/ 3 straight first round losses. Why shouldnt he be held accountable for that ?

He was given the keys to a 200 million dollar operation and failed to bring it to its full potential.

With that kinda payroll just making the playoffs shouldnt be acceptable and the Yankees don't owe Torre a damn thing.

If he's a Hall Of Fame manger it's because of the situation he was given and not what he made of it because if he's a genius he wouldnt have been let go from 3 other jobs.

he is being held accountable, hence why he is no longer the manager

[lleeder]

When has there ever been an outpouring for someone who hasn't done anything yet?

That's like saying "Where was the appreciation for Einstein when he was 14?"

I'm sure he was great at 14.
From Wikipedia:
In 1894, when Einstein was fifteen, his father's business failed, and the Einstein family moved to Italy, first to Milan and then, after a few months, to Pavia. During this time, Albert wrote his first scientific work, "The Investigation of the State of Aether in Magnetic Fields".

[Bulldogcakes]

Great, well thought out Torre article (http://www.replacementlevel.com/)

Very fair, presents both sides evenly and draws intelligent conclusions. Great read, whether you wanted him to stay or go.

[lleeder]

Great, well thought out Torre article (http://www.replacementlevel.com/)

Very fair, presents both sides evenly and draws intelligent conclusions. Great read, whether you wanted him to stay or go.

I understand what this guy is saying from a business standpoint it would make sense to let everyone walk. 2008 every ticket will be sold since its the last year of Yankee Stadium and 2009 every ticket will be sold since it is the first year of the new stadium. This means the Yankees (if they don't care about winning a championship) can have huge payroll reduction and profit in the next two years.

[TheGameHHH]

Great, well thought out Torre article (http://www.replacementlevel.com/)

Very fair, presents both sides evenly and draws intelligent conclusions. Great read, whether you wanted him to stay or go.

i think he draws zero conclusions........every thing he says about the managing situation and the free agents concludes with 'but im not really sure what the best route is'. he's saying everything we have all said in this thread prior, but offers no real answers to help the team. i actually think its a pure regurgitation of everything we have said, from both sides of the spectrum.

[Bulldogcakes]

I understand what this guy is saying from a business standpoint it would make sense to let everyone walk. 2008 every ticket will be sold since its the last year of Yankee Stadium and 2009 every ticket will be sold since it is the first year of the new stadium. This means the Yankees (if they don't care about winning a championship) can have huge payroll reduction and profit in the next two years.

I posted that article more for the Torre analysis than the off season part, but that part was interesting as well.

His point about not signing certain guys has more to do with declining production in the out years of the deal, where in a few years Mo and Posada will be giving less and less and taking up a roster spot, similar to Giambi this year. But I don't think they're as big a problem as Giambi is, Posada can ease into backup catcher status with less and less playing time and Mo is in the bullpen, where you don't get hurt roster-wise. But make no mistake the team will be better off next year if they re sign A-Rod, Posada and Mo. The're all very hard to replace and the team would be in rebuilding mode w/o them. The Yanks don't do rebuilding mode, they rebuild as they try to win each year.


Here's a breakdown of the off season with stuff on each player's value. (http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/exodus-in-the-bronx/)

There's a good chance that Matsui and Abreu will start declining next year, they're both at that age and both showed signs of slowing down this year. Its definitely looking like a big transition off season this year, starting with the manager.

[HBox]

I'd pick up Abreu's option. It's only one year and there aren't better options.

[Bulldogcakes]

i think he draws zero conclusions........every thing he says about the managing situation and the free agents concludes with 'but im not really sure what the best route is'. he's saying everything we have all said in this thread prior, but offers no real answers to help the team. i actually think its a pure regurgitation of everything we have said, from both sides of the spectrum.

Which is why it's a smart article. He lays out the facts and lets you make up your own mind. And he did come to some conclusions, but I guess not as many as you were looking for.
So much of the Torre coverage has been polarized, either completely pro-Torre or totally pro-Yankee brass. That was one of the few articles I've read which was even handed.

[Bulldogcakes]

I'd pick up Abreu's option. It's only one year and there aren't better options.

Maybe, but how about signing Rowand and moving Melky to RF? Your overall OF hitting production would go up and the defense would improve vastly. Melky is a better corner OF than he is CF and Rowand is a beast with the glove. Plus he adds some grit to this team which doesn't have many "grinders" anymore.

[HBox]

Maybe, but how about signing Rowand and moving Melky to RF? Your overall OF hitting production would go up and the defense would improve vastly. Melky is a better corner OF than he is CF and Rowand is a beast with the glove. Plus he adds some grit to this team which doesn't have many "grinders" anymore.

Melky needs to greatly improve offensively to play corner OF. It's one thing to have him fill in in LF or RF occasionally but he needs to show some power before they hand him RF going into the season.

[Bulldogcakes]

While were on the subject of the OF, here's a doozy. Who do you keep for LF? Damon or Matsui?

Damon played a better LF than Matsui, who has declined with the glove steadily. Damon is a good hitter when healthy, but many think all the abuse he's accumulated over the years is adding up. They're the same age (33). Matsui had 100 points more OPS (50 more career avg) than Damon last year, and has business value to the team in Japan. Damon is a spark plug type, the lineup seems to flow when he's hitting and jam up when he's not. Matsui is very streaky and hits into a lot of DP's when he's struggling. Tough call.

Keep Matsui, trade Damon.

[Bulldogcakes]

Melky needs to greatly improve offensively to play corner OF. It's one thing to have him fill in in LF or RF occasionally but he needs to show some power before they hand him RF going into the season.

Thats the beauty of Rowand, he gives you corner OF #'s in CF. So you can afford Melky in RF. But I agree, Melky needs to get his OBP up to warrant a starting job. You can live with him if he's around .350-400 OBP and has around 80-100 Runs scored. He's a table setter, let the other guys drive him home.

Here's the stats

Melky
AVG .273 | HR 8 | RBI 73 | OBP .327 | SLG .391

Abreu
AVG .283 | HR 16 | RBI 101 | OBP .369 | SLG .445

The best hitting OF would be Rowand/Abreu. The best defensive OF would be Rowand/Melky.

[BoondockSaint]

Saw these on Abraham's blog. Thought you guys would be interested.

"I would say that state of flux is a grand issue," said Boras. "I'm not saying that information and time can not resolve it. But it's going to take time for us to know how these things are resolved. We're talking about a long-term contract here, and to make that decision is difficult, knowing there are that many issues up in the air." (http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/20/commentary/sportsbiz/)

Yanks To Pursue Rowand?
A source of mine with Yankee connections had some good info for me today. Much was discussed yesterday in Tampa.

For starters, the Yanks are expected to make "eye-popping" offers to retain Jorge Posada and Mariano Rivera before the World Series ends. The team does not want the pair to file for free agency.

Additionally, the Yankees may make a big play for Aaron Rowand. They believe a package of Melky Cabrera, Chien-Ming Wang, and Ian Kennedy would entice the Twins for Johan Santana. That's a huge price, but doesn't seem out of line to me for the best pitcher in baseball.

My source didn't have anything about Andy Pettitte, who hated seeing Joe Torre go and will take a month to decide if he's even going to play next year. (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/10/yanks-to-pursue.html)

[Bulldogcakes]

I'm so smart.

[Bulldogcakes]

http://www.nintendorks.com/chris/archives/aaronrowand.jpg

AVG .309 | HR 27 | RBI 89 | OBP .374 | SLG .515

I love him already.

[Kevin]

Saw these on Abraham's blog. Thought you guys would be interested.

Thats a terrible trade if the Yanks do it.. How would losing a cf and 2 sp help??
I can under stand 2 prospects but not 2 guys that would be in your rotation..

[Bulldogcakes]

Thats a terrible trade if the Yanks do it.. How would losing a cf and 2 sp help??
I can under stand 2 prospects but not 2 guys that would be in your rotation..

Thats probably the opening offer from the Twin side. I suspect the final deal won't include Wang, he's entering arbitration years and his salary will explode over the next few years, which is the last thing the Twins need. Thats their way of getting the Yanks to part with another top prospect. Hughes and Joba are untouchable for me, so the next best prospect is (Eastern League Pitcher of the Year) Alan Horne.

I'd do Horne, Kennedy and Melky. But even thats A LOT. I'd rather do Ohlendorf than Horne. You only get Santana for 1 year, then you have to sign him for a gazillion $$. But I'd do that if the Bosox were in it and offer Bucholtz and Ellsbury/Pedroia. Then you have to do it to top the Sox offer.

And Kennedy really doesn't fit into the Yank rotation next year anyway. It will be like this if the deal happens

Santana
Pettite
Wang
Hughes
Joba

There's your 5 guys right there.

[Kevin]

Thats probably the opening offer from the Twin side. I suspect the final deal won't include Wang, he's entering arbitration years and his salary will explode over the next few years, which is the last thing the Twins need. Thats their way of getting the Yanks to part with another top prospect. Hughes and Joba are untouchable for me, so the next best prospect is (Eastern League Pitcher of the Year) Alan Horne.

I'd do Horne, Kennedy and Melky. But even thats A LOT. You only get Santana for 1 year, then you have to sign him for a gazillion $$. But I'd do that if the Bosox were in it and offer Bucholtz and Ellsbury/Pedroia. Then you have to do it to top the Sox offer.

And Kennedy really doesn't fit into the Yank rotation next year anyway. It will be like this if the deal happens

Santana
Pettite
Wang
Hughes
Joba

There's your 5 guys right there.

To tell you the truth, i'd rather Kennedy than Wang.. I was really disappointed with him this year.. Not just the playoffs.. His Reg season was inconsistant.

[Bulldogcakes]

To tell you the truth, i'd rather Kennedy than Wang.. I was really disappointed with him this year.. Not just the playoffs.. His Reg season was inconsistant.

Do you know how many other MLB pitchers have won 38 games over the last 2 years?

Nobody.

[Kevin]

Do you know how many other AL pitchers have won 38 games over the last 2 years?

Nobody.

As Mojo has stated more than once.. Wins are not very telling of how a pitcher actually did.. I just feel that Wang relies way too much on thing.. His sinker sinking.. And if that does not happen, his other stuff is not nearly good enough.. And thats very dangerous.. Kinda like Wake's Knuckler...

[TheGameHHH]

As Mojo has stated more than once.. Wins are not very telling of how a pitcher actually did.. I just feel that Wang relies way too much on thing.. His sinker sinking.. And if that does not happen, his other stuff is not nearly good enough.. And thats very dangerous.. Kinda like Wake's Knuckler...

i dont think that holds true just to Wakefield, i think it holds true to any major league pitcher. if you dont have your stuff that day youre going to get hit. in my opinion Wang brings his sinker to the park way more often then not, and thats why i perceive him to be a good pitcher. when his ball is dropping, he's very tough.

[TheGameHHH]

While were on the subject of the OF, here's a doozy. Who do you keep for LF? Damon or Matsui?

Damon played a better LF than Matsui, who has declined with the glove steadily. Damon is a good hitter when healthy, but many think all the abuse he's accumulated over the years is adding up. They're the same age (33). Matsui had 100 points more OPS (50 more career avg) than Damon last year, and has business value to the team in Japan. Damon is a spark plug type, the lineup seems to flow when he's hitting and jam up when he's not. Matsui is very streaky and hits into a lot of DP's when he's struggling. Tough call.

Keep Matsui, trade Damon.

i also don't think it was "abuse" that was taking the toll on Damon this year. he showed up to spring training very much out of shape, to which he even admitted. when you are out of shape, your body will let you know. it wasnt abuse, it was Damon not taking care of himself in the off-season. once he got his body back to where it should have been, he played fine. he impressed me more over the last 3 months of the season then Matsui did, therefore I'd stick with Damon.

[Doctor Z]

When has there ever been an outpouring for someone who hasn't done anything yet?

That's like saying "Where was the appreciation for <strike>Einstein</strike> Lincoln when he was <strike>14</strike> 11?"

Fixed it for me.







And don't get any clever ideas about log cabins...

[Kevin]

i dont think that holds true just to Wakefield, i think it holds true to any major league pitcher. if you dont have your stuff that day youre going to get hit. in my opinion Wang brings his sinker to the park way more often then not, and thats why i perceive him to be a good pitcher. when his ball is dropping, he's very tough.

Not really.. good to great pitchers have at least 3 above avg to great pitches.. If one thing does not work, they go to the next. Wang.. If the climate is not right, and his sinker can't sink.. He is dead.

Joba Has 2 great pitches and an above avg change..

Hughes same with FB Curve and change

Andy same.. If Andy does not have one thing, he has others that he always went to.

The only pitcher that i have ever seen be great with basically one pitch, is MO. And there aren't many of him around.. And never will be.. I just do not think Wang can ever be that lights out ace #1 guy... Not unless he learns other stuff..

[Bulldogcakes]

The only pitcher that i have ever seen be great with basically one pitch, is MO. And there aren't many of him around.. And never will be.. I just do not think Wang can ever be that lights out ace #1 guy... Not unless he learns other stuff..

Thats not true. Wang throws a slider, 4 seamer, 2 seamer (sinker) and splitter. He just features the 2 seamer 60-70% of the time when its on.

I don't expect Wang to be a #1. He's a good 2 or a great 3. Santana would be the #1 if they get him, and Hughes and Joba could become #1s if they develop like most think they will.

[Kevin]

Thats not true. Wang throws a slider, 4 seamer, 2 seamer (sinker) and splitter. He just features the 2 seamer 60-70% of the time when its on.

I don't expect Wang to be a #1. He's a good 2 or a great 3. Santana would be the #1 if they get him, and Hughes and Joba could become #1s if they develop like most think they will.

Just because you throw other pitches does not mean that you have more than one pitch.. He has clearly shown that he can't rely on any of them... When his sinker does not sink, he gets utterly destroyed. Because he keeps having to use it and hope he gets it to sink, because his others aren't good enough.

[Bulldogcakes]

Story
(http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2007/10/21/respect_for_these_elders/?page=4)
What's his next move?

Potential destinations for Joe Torre? If Dodgers owner Frank McCourt doesn't care for the direction of the team early next season, don't bet against them making a run at Torre. Big market. Big name. Instant credibility. Ditto for the Mets. Torre could also be considered a possible successor to Bobby Cox in Atlanta after next season, if he wants to wait that long. There are plenty of teams that will take comfort in knowing Torre is out there, in case they aren't performing up to par. "Joe could wind up making more money out of this than he did with the Yankees," said one veteran baseball executive. "He may go to TV for a while, but he won't be there very long if he does. It sounds as if he still wants to manage, and I know his motivation in winning again someplace else must be pretty high."

Don't forget the tell-all book deal.

[Bulldogcakes]

Good Mattingly article (http://www.courant.com/sports/baseball/hc-yankees1021.artoct21,0,2438883.story)

A leading candidate to succeed Joe Torre, Mattingly has never managed before. Not in the minors, not in college, probably not even in a Sunday beer league. Now he could be handed the reins to the most famous and successful team in sports.

Mattingly spent this past season as Torre's bench coach following three years as Yankees hitting coach. Jason Giambi credited Mattingly repeatedly for helping him break out of a prolonged slump. Under Mattingly, the Yankees led the majors in 2006 with a .363 on-base percentage and 930 runs.

But the bigger issue is pitching, and Mattingly has little experience with it. Not to mention fending off George Steinbrenner, who only considers championships as success.

After the Yankees' elimination, Mattingly said replacing Torre might not be the most enticing task.

"It's like following John Wooden or something," Mattingly said. "This guy wins championship after championship and we're in the playoffs in every year.

"It's pretty much a no-win situation for someone coming in here to be able to live up to the expectations or live up to what he did. It's not going to happen. So as far as someone coming in and taking over this job, it's not necessarily a great situation."


Another good one, even tougher on Mattingly (http://www.nypost.com/seven/10212007/sports/yankees/talk_of_donnie_as_manager_coul.htm)

For a new management team that doesn't want to make any mistakes out of the box, Mattingly represents a huge risk and could end up horribly as Vaccaro details.

I hope its Girardi. He could be the next Joe McCarthy. I think he'll interview better than Mattingly will, he's a very bright guy and he knows more about pitching than Mattingly does.

[HBox]

Hank Steinbrenner fires back at Torre. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3072881)

"Where was Joe's career in '95 when my dad hired him?" Hank Steinbrenner told The New York Post. "My dad was crucified for hiring him. "Let's not forget what my dad did in giving him that opportunity -- and the great team he was handed," Steinbrenner told the paper.

"You can't take credit for success when you're going good, and then not take at least some of the blame when things change," Steinbrenner told the paper. "I'm sorry he feels insulted, but that was not the intent." Hank Steinbrenner said he was hoping Torre would agree to manage the Yankees for a 13th season. "I sincerely wanted Joe to accept that offer," said Steinbrenner. "We all wanted him to accept it, probably me more than anybody else." "You don't make an offer bluffing. What if he says yes?" he added. "I was hoping he'd say yes."

[Bulldogcakes]

Hank Steinbrenner fires back at Torre. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3072881)

Hank went on to say Torre is a "Fat, pussie toad"

[Kevin]

Hank Steinbrenner fires back at Torre. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3072881)

I think Hank was just tired of Torre's boyfriends in NY making this a one sided asinine argument. What Mike and the Mad Dog did this week was ridiculous. I hope they get tossed out of YES for this.. I am all for free speech.. But fair free speech.. They refused to say anything positive about Torre's firing.. He should have been fired. The refused to give him ANY blame. Give him a 3 year 21 mil deal.. FOR WHAT? Killing bullpens?? Misusing SP?? Refusing to read the way the game and players are playing and not making appropriate changes? It was just sickening. The biggest tell of their irrationality was that Girardi decade comment.. No rational person would ever make that comment. Torre in my mind went down a peg as a person with how he handled this situation. You want to be paid like a championship manager.. WIN FUCKING CHAMPIONSHIPS... Its OK to get pay raises when your winning, but an insult to be asked to have your pay cut which oh by the way was still almost 2mil higher then any other manager, when you do not win?? He has not been a championship manager for 7 years. And should not get paid like one... I really hope that the next manager is successful.. not just because its my team.. But i want to hear the what the Torre apologists have to say then.. Like BDC said.. Yea, NO ONE ELSE,can possibly manage this awful team.. Torre gave them all their talent.. Just asinine...

[Kevin]

Good Mattingly article (http://www.courant.com/sports/baseball/hc-yankees1021.artoct21,0,2438883.story)



Another good one, even tougher on Mattingly (http://www.nypost.com/seven/10212007/sports/yankees/talk_of_donnie_as_manager_coul.htm)

For a new management team that doesn't want to make any mistakes out of the box, Mattingly represents a huge risk and could end up horribly as Vaccaro details.

I hope its Girardi. He could be the next Joe McCarthy. I think he'll interview better than Mattingly will, he's a very bright guy and he knows more about pitching than Mattingly does.

Yea, i think The Yanks now want to stick it to Torre and his boyfriends in NY.. They want this next manager to be successful.. They won't go with Mattingly.. Its gunna be Girardi.

[lleeder]

Hank Steinbrenner fires back at Torre. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3072881)

Thats the corporate way of saying "Fuck him in his fuckhole"

[spoon]

When has there ever been an outpouring for someone who hasn't done anything yet?

That's like saying "Where was the appreciation for Einstein when he was 14?"

Got to love this post. But before this post I had no appreciation for Z. None.

[lleeder]

Got to love this post. But before this post I had no appreciation for Z. None.

And he only looks like he's 14.

[TheMojoPin]

They want this next manager to be successful.. Its gunna be Girardi.

People's judgement of "success" is pretty skewed.

[Bulldogcakes]

In a recent interview to the the Sports Hochi newspaper Hideki Matsui was quoted as saying he was "prepared for anything, even a trade" next year, and that "trades were something beyond his control".

When asked how he would adjust to playing for a small market team after playing for the prestegious (Tokyo) Giants and Yankees, he answered "It may turn out for the best, You never know what will happen. If I do my best and lose my LF position, that's that."

It sounds to me like Matsui is ready to waive his no trade clause, or has done so already from the comment that trades are beyond his control, to request a trade if he loses LF to Damon next year.


This was posted on another board unlinked. I googled it and couldn't find a link, but the original article is likely in Japanese. So take it for what its worth. Sounds legit, but who knows.

Left field is a tough call for the Yanks. Matsui's production was much better than Damon's last year, and Damon coming into spring training last year badly out of shape can't sit well with the Yankee brass.

Though he may fetch more in a trade (especially to a west coast team) he has 2 years left at a reasonable by todays standards 13 per (so does Damon). Both are 33. The Yanks may feel that when all things are equal, Damon has more overall skill. He can run better than Matsui, he can play the field better, he hits into less DP's. Yoju also have to figure if you trade Damon now, your selling when his stock is down. Matsui's stock is still high.

One of them has to go, and whoever does I hope will get us another piece for either a Santana trade or Cabrera deal when/if A-Rod bolts.

[Freitag]

Here's a positive thing:

If Torre goes back to broadcasting, perhaps Morgan's out of a job.

You know what really annoys me about the "insult" comment? Find me one team that'll pay Torre the money he thinks he's worth.

[Jujubees2]

Every time I hear someone mention how "classy" Torre is, the implication is that the rest of the Yankee organization is not (sometimes they even come out and say it) So when many in the media are praising Torre, they're also giving a back handed slap to the Yankee brass.

BDC,

How are the Yankees classy. They have an owner who was suspended from MLB twice:

Steinbrenner has been suspended twice from baseball, once for illegal contributions made to President Richard Nixon's 1972 campaign fund and once for paying a gambler for information on Winfield. from http://espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/Steinbrenner_George.html

And how about the front office deducting room serivce from Joe Torre but paying over $2,000 for a rental car?

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/10/21/2007-10-21_yankees_charged_joe_torre_players_for_ro.html

Oh, and there's the matter that after winning the 2000 Series Steinbrenner refused to buy rings for some of the office staff who had gotten them in the past and the time he threatened to take away dental coverage for the front office people.

Did you mean to call the Yankees crassy?

[Freitag]

BDC,

How are the Yankees classy. They have an owner who was suspended from MLB twice:

Steinbrenner has been suspended twice from baseball, once for illegal contributions made to President Richard Nixon's 1972 campaign fund and once for paying a gambler for information on Winfield. from http://espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/Steinbrenner_George.html

And how about the front office deducting room serivce from Joe Torre but paying over $2,000 for a rental car?

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/10/21/2007-10-21_yankees_charged_joe_torre_players_for_ro.html

Oh, and there's the matter that after winning the 2000 Series Steinbrenner refused to buy rings for some of the office staff who had gotten them in the past and the time he threatened to take away dental coverage for the front office people.

Did you mean to call the Yankees crassy?

Players and managers are given a per-diem for food/travel expenses. They go over that, they are docked. That's why the front-office people aren't docked and the players/coaches are.

[Doctor Z]

I don't know if it matters what order the interviews are conducted in, but apparently Girardi was given first crack.

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071022&content_id=2275761&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp&c_id=nyy

[Kevin]

I don't know if it matters what order the interviews are conducted in, but apparently Girardi was given first crack.

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071022&content_id=2275761&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp&c_id=nyy

If Giradri does not get this job, there should be an investigation..

[Kevin]

Report: Yanks make plans for face-to-face meeting with A-Rod (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3073909)

The New York Yankees reportedly have requested a face-to-face meeting with Alex Rodriguez in an effort to keep the prized third baseman from opting out of his contract and becoming a free agent

The New York Post reported Monday that the Yankees are making plans for a meeting with Rodriguez and his agent, Scott Boras, to persuade the slugger from opting out.

"Apparently we will talk soon, I am told," Boras told the Post. "I would expect it will include all parties."

Makes sense... Yanks will prob tell him they either make a deal or they are out.

[King Hippos Bandaid]

fucking Media whores

first Torre , now A-Rod

Let the World Series End before you whore for attention


the Yankees are the WORST ....


:king:

[Doctor Z]

riiiiiiight...

[TheGameHHH]

i wonder if the Yanks are gonna offer A-rod a deal thats $10 million a year plus playoff incentives. only to be "shocked" when he turns it down

[Doctor Z]

I hear they're offering A-Rod a "Per Play" salary. He'll be getting $20 for each ground ball he turns into an out, $25 for every diving catch, and a cool $40 for each homerun he hits. In addition, he'll be getting paid by the hour.

[TheGameHHH]

I just clicked over to Abraham's blog and he brought up something that i thought was interesting. He said that the financial commitment it would take to retain Jorge, Mo and A-Rod could reach somewhere around $250 million. That's a lot for a 36 year old catcher, a 38 year old reliever and a guy who's never been to the World Series.

[Doctor Z]

Not if the Yankees offer them Per-Pitch/Per-Catch contracts. If Posada is GUARANTEED 50 cents per catch, he can make a pretty penny this season (this does not include warm-up pitches).

Then EVERYBODY wins.

[Snoogans]

Not if the Yankees offer them Per-Pitch/Per-Catch contracts. If Posada is GUARANTEED 50 cents per catch, he can make a pretty penny this season (this does not include warm-up pitches).

Then EVERYBODY wins.

except Posada sucks at catching

[Kevin]

except Posada sucks at catching

He doesn't swing at strikes.. or catch anything not thrown for strikes

[Bulldogcakes]

Report: Yanks make plans for face-to-face meeting with A-Rod (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3073909)

Makes sense... Yanks will prob tell him they either make a deal or they are out.

http://blogs.msg.com/gameon/images/2007/07/03/cashman_blog_070307dr.jpg

I told him "Either your signature, or your brains will be on that contract"

[Bulldogcakes]

BDC,

How are the Yankees classy. They have an owner who was suspended from MLB twice:


Did you mean to call the Yankees crassy?

You know whats REALLY classless? Going to a team's thread that you don't root for (that just had a tough post season loss) and pissing all over them.

Worry about your own team.

[Bulldogcakes]

I just clicked over to Abraham's blog and he brought up something that i thought was interesting. He said that the financial commitment it would take to retain Jorge, Mo and A-Rod could reach somewhere around $250 million. That's a lot for a 36 year old catcher, a 38 year old reliever and a guy who's never been to the World Series.

It really is, but in Posada's case he can ease into backup catcher/DH duties, and Mo can just be used less or eventually shifted out of the closer's role. They won't hurt you as bad as, say Giambi has where we used 3 roster spots for 1B this year because of his inability to play the field. Figure Mo and Posada are around 3 years-40 mil each.

A-Rod gets a 5 year/165 mil (33 per) extension on top of his current deal. Sorry, I think A-Rod won't accept that. His current deal pays him 27 per. Tack on 33 per and you're averaging around 30 annually. He can probably get 32 or 33 (8 years/265) on the open market. I don't see him giving the Yanks a hometown discount.

Here's another factor. The Yanks really don't need him, business wise. They will sell out the stadium next year for the old stadium farewell and every year after that for the next 3-5 years as people from all over the country (and world) come to check out the new stadium. He cant add value to a stadium thats selling out.

As far as Boras' YES bullshit,
thats (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/10/12/2007-10-12_scott_boras_exaggerating_arods_value_to_.html)
been (http://www.newsday.com/sports/football/ny-spwatch195422516oct19,0,6877934.column)
disproven (http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubzone/theoryb/comment/reply/1409)
all over the place. Also, don't forget that 32 mil is actually 46 mil to the Yanks after the luxury tax. Even the Yanks can't afford that for one player. Plus, his 'star value' is lessened by the team he's on. The Yanks are loaded with stars, and their rookies are becoming the next generation of star players. Its not like they need A-Rod to market the team, they're the fucking Yankees for crying out loud.

Now, lets get into his replaceability. By definition, you can't replace the best player in baseball. One option is to move Cano to 3B, but thats a last resort. You should be able to get very productive players like Cabrera, Glaus or Crede via trade who will give you good numbers, say within 50-100 basis points of OPS at between 7-12 mil per year. Is it worth an extra 34 million for 50 basis points of OPS? No, and its not even close. You can fill 3 or 4 holes with star players for that money. And don't tell me the Yanks can spend anything, they've kept their budget around 200 mil for the past 4 years despite adding all sorts of players, and when they had opportunities to go over it with players like Beltran, they declined. A-Rod's selfishness is bad for the budget, and therefore bad for the team. Worst case scenario, if A-Rod can't find a suitor and the Yanks can't make a trade, they go back on their word and sign a deal in January.

But I think he walks, and I'm fine with that.

[cougarjake13]

Here's a positive thing:

If Torre goes back to broadcasting, perhaps Morgan's out of a job.

You know what really annoys me about the "insult" comment? Find me one team that'll pay Torre the money he thinks he's worth.

i dont think he'd want or expect the same money from other teams as he did from the yanks

from the press conference he had it seemed that he wanted the more years so he wasnt a lame duck mgr again and that he didnt need monetary motivation to be better in the post season

[Doctor Z]

Anybody hear Hank Steinbrenner's comments on Girardi's interview today?

"Uh... He appears to be very smart... he's smart, he's a ... a smart guy."

The Boss Jr.'s are clueless. Somebody find a BASEBALL GUY to take George's place!!!

[Kevin]

Anybody hear Hank Steinbrenner's comments on Girardi's interview today?

"Uh... He appears to be very smart... he's smart, he's a ... a smart guy."

The Boss Jr.'s are clueless. Somebody find a BASEBALL GUY to take George's place!!!

If he doesn't get the job.. THEN.. they are clueless..

[Bossanova]

I understand he led a team that wasn't supposed to go anywhere to more wins than they should have. But that doesn't make Girardi a proven manager. He had one season to piss off ownership and irritate every player. Girardi had no pressure to lead this team to a pennant. He is too stubborn and I can't see how the vets on the Yankees will take fis toughness serious.

[Doctor Z]

I don't know whose duty it is... But it's SOMEBODY'S duty in this thread to dig up (OR MAKE ON THEIR OWN) an animated GIF of Papelbon dancing like a total queer.


Yeah, I said duty.

[RingWraith]

I don't know whose duty it is... But it's SOMEBODY'S duty in this thread to dig up (OR MAKE ON THEIR OWN) an animated GIF of Papelbon dancing like a total queer.


Yeah, I said duty.


Ha Ha!!! Duty!!!!!

[Bulldogcakes]

Reading the tea leaves (http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkxMTMmZmdi ZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTcyMTE4OTQmeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZU VFeXk2)


By PETE CALDERA and BOB KLAPISCH

Following a six-hour session Monday with the Yankees' brass in Tampa, Fla., Joe Girardi may have emerged as the man to beat, according to sources familiar with the club's off-season planning.

Girardi said he "felt good about the interview" for the vacant managerial position.

Bench coach Don Mattingly -- a favorite of owner George Steinbrenner -- will interview in Tampa today, but Girardi already has made a solid first impression. Furthermore, it's believed that new board chairman Hal Steinbrenner is a big fan of Girardi, 43.

There are elements of ownership that are taken with Girardi's feistiness and preparedness.

Hope so.

[Bulldogcakes]

Joe Girardi impresses Yankee brass (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/10/23/2007-10-23_joe_girardi_impresses_yankee_brass_don_m.html?r ef=rss)

"From what I know about him, he appears to be very smart," the older Steinbrenner son said. "That's his reputation - smart, tough when he has to be. And he can be easy when he has to be. He has baseball smarts, his handling of pitching, the fact that he's been a catcher and a smart catcher. Wasn't he Manager of the Year last year in his first year ever? How many guys have done that?"

Cashman and the baseball operations department will conduct the bulk of the interview process, but a source said the final call will fall to The Boss, who is likely to go with Cashman's recommendation.

Wait a minute. As of yesterday all the genius beat writers were saying Cashman wouldn't even be at the interview, then it turns out he escorts Girardi to the meeting and attends. Cashman has been long rumored to be a big Girardi fan, and both have got into the modern sabremetrics in recent years. Thats surprising.

[Jujubees2]

You know whats REALLY classless? Going to a team's thread that you don't root for (that just had a tough post season loss) and pissing all over them.

Worry about your own team.

Sorry BDC, guess I missed that page of the rules of RonFez.com that states you can only post on sport sites for teams that you root for. This will be my last post on the Yankees thread.

[TheMojoPin]

I understand he led a team that wasn't supposed to go anywhere to more wins than they should have. But that doesn't make Girardi a proven manager. He had one season to piss off ownership and irritate every player. Girardi had no pressure to lead this team to a pennant. He is too stubborn and I can't see how the vets on the Yankees will take fis toughness serious.

*DING-DING-DING*

The Girardi era has disaster written all over it.

[Doctor Z]

*DING-DING-DING*

The Girardi era has disaster written all over it.

If it's a disaster, it won't be much of an "era" at all. The reason I think they'll go with Girardi, or even Pena before Mattingly is, NOBODY WANTS TO BE THE GUY that follows Torre. You wanna be the guy who FOLLOWS the guy. And the Yankees have a very special interest in protecting the godly image of Mattingly in Yankeeland.

Just look at David Lee Roth.

The Yankees can afford to hire and fire Girardi/Pena if they don't work out. They're not quite as willing to throw Donnie Baseball to the lions right away.

[TheGameHHH]

i fucking hate Hank and Hal Steinbrenner.

[Kevin]

I understand he led a team that wasn't supposed to go anywhere to more wins than they should have. But that doesn't make Girardi a proven manager. He had one season to piss off ownership and irritate every player. Girardi had no pressure to lead this team to a pennant. He is too stubborn and I can't see how the vets on the Yankees will take fis toughness serious.

*DING-DING-DING*

The Girardi era has disaster written all over it.

If it's a disaster, it won't be much of an "era" at all. The reason I think they'll go with Girardi, or even Pena before Mattingly is, NOBODY WANTS TO BE THE GUY that follows Torre. You wanna be the guy who FOLLOWS the guy. And the Yankees have a very special interest in protecting the godly image of Mattingly in Yankeeland.




Just look at David Lee Roth.

The Yankees can afford to hire and fire Girardi/Pena if they don't work out. They're not quite as willing to throw Donnie Baseball to the lions right away.


All this team needs is a manager with SOME common sense...

Hey... I have pitched this guy alot.. MAYBE i should lay off a while.. Instead of... Hey this guy has pitched alot, he looks tired and his stuff is a little off.. THROW HIM IN AN 11-2 GAME!!

Or

Hey.. This guy is struggling.. Maybe i should rest him or move him down in the lineup.. He is killing every rally... Instead of... ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.. Huh.. what inning is it?? What day is it?? Eh what ever i do, my boyfriends in the media will have my back.. I'M GOLD BABY!!

Girardi will be a great manager.. I really believe it.. He always knew what he was talking about every time he was on YES.. And like i said.. All you need is SOME common sense..

And to answer your question on the Marlins..

Loria is a spoiled little bitch.. And held a ridiculous grudge.. What Girardi did should have been done.. How have the Marlins looked with basically the same team, since He left?? Shitty. He took over an impossible situation, and was basically lied to to get him to take the job.. He took the job with one set of players, and they his whole team was stripped.. Did he complain?? Nope.. He just went there and did a hell of a job... He could have acted like a little bitch spaz like Loria did... But unlike that fag, He was professional.. And NO ONE would have blamed him if he bitched.. And this notion that The Yankees will hire a manager now for the purpose of making sure Mattingly is set up in a couple years, is utterly fucking bat shit insane.. THE YANKEES WANT TO FUCKING WIN... They don't care who it is with.. Especially with the Manager after Torre..

[Kevin]

i fucking hate Hank and Hal Steinbrenner.

Why.. Because some biased Media guys who are up Torre's ass are telling you to?? I do not know if they will be good owners or not.. But its WAY too early to tell.

[Kevin]

And one more thing...

The moment they decided to Fire Torre is when they made the Joba Rules.. There is no way you make Rules to protect your young pitcher from your manager, and want to Keep that manager.. I also think that was about or a little after the time Girardi was up for the O's Job.. I think one of the Yankee brass went to him and said do not take the job.. Because unless Torre wins the WS, he is out and you are in. At that time, the Yanks were way out of it.. And they and Girardi never thought they would make the playoffs. So that Torre gone was a almost forgone conclusion at the time.. This whole interview process is like that contract offer.. A cover for public relation purposes..

[Doctor Z]

Something tells me Hank & Hal aren't permanent solutions. This team is getting sold to somebody or transferred to somebody within the next 2 years.

Just pray to God/Buddha/Allah that it's not Jim Dolan.

[Kevin]

Something tells me Hank & Hal aren't permanent solutions. This team is getting sold to somebody or transferred to somebody within the next 2 years.

Just pray to God/Buddha/Allah that it's not Jim Dolan.

Why would anyone in their right minds sell this team?? They are a cash cow.. And with the new stadium coming.. Will be even more.. And i am sure Hank and Hal have ego's like their father.. And being the Owners of The New York Yankees, is a ego boost like no other.. Maybe its their intention now to maybe sell.. But once they see the advantages that Being a Yankee owner gives you, they will change their tune quick. And Dolen would NEVER get approval from the owners of MLB.. Especially after this last Isaiah debacle.. Because as much as they hate the Yanks... Having a bad Yankee team with a bad owner would be a DISASTER for MLB.. I do not even think the Redsox would approve the Dolens.

[Freitag]

And one more thing...

The moment they decided to Fire Torre is when they made the Joba Rules.. There is no way you make Rules to protect your young pitcher from your manager, and want to Keep that manager.. ..

I've only been saying this for the past month. Where've you been?

[TheMojoPin]

All this team needs is a manager with SOME common sense...

Hey... I have pitched this guy alot.. MAYBE i should lay off a while.. Instead of... Hey this guy has pitched alot, he looks tired and his stuff is a little off.. THROW HIM IN AN 11-2 GAME!!

Or

Hey.. This guy is struggling.. Maybe i should rest him or move him down in the lineup.. He is killing every rally... Instead of... ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.. Huh.. what inning is it?? What day is it?? Eh what ever i do, my boyfriends in the media will have my back.. I'M GOLD BABY!!

Girardi will be a great manager..

If you look at how he specifically managed the Marlins each game, you'll see that he typically did the exact opposite of what you're hoping for. It seems most Yankee fans are just buying the broad hype and not actually analyzing what type of manager he was.

[Kevin]

If you look at how he specifically managed the Marlins each game, you'll see that he typically did the exact opposite of what you're hoping for. It seems most Yankee fans are just buying the broad hype and not actually analyzing what type of manager he was.

Yea.. Maybe he uses his players alot in Fla.. But my question to you is.. Who else was he using?? He had like a 2mil dollar payroll to work with.. Young players.. He had to find the players that could do the job, and stick with them.. Who else was he using?? I do not think he will have that problem with the Yankees..

[TheGameHHH]

Why.. Because some biased Media guys who are up Torre's ass are telling you to?? I do not know if they will be good owners or not.. But its WAY too early to tell.

Why? Because every quote i hear out of them has some sort of 'my daddy' phrase in it. they sound like chris penn in Resivour Dogs. how about u stop talking about daddy. I can make up my own mind and form my own opinions on people. i dont listen to "media guys"

[TheMojoPin]

Yea.. Maybe he uses his players alot in Fla.. But my question to you is.. Who else was he using?? He had like a 2mil dollar payroll to work with.. Young players.. He had to find the players that could do the job, and stick with them.. Who else was he using?? I do not think he will have that problem with the Yankees..

His pitcher abuse issues were right up with Dusty Baker's...he was that bad. And with younger pitchers that's an even worse managerial approach. He demonstrated he had a totally hamfisted approach when it came to managing individual games and zero problem burning guys out.

[TheGameHHH]

His pitcher abuse issues were right up with Dusty Baker's...he was that bad. And with younger pitchers that's an even worse managerial approach. He demonstrated he had a totally hamfisted approach when it came to managing individual games and zero problem burning guys out.

don't forget he might be in charge of two-three franchise young pitchers in hughes/chamberlin/and kennedy.

[Doctor Z]

http://www.gotmelk.com/uploads/ObeyJobaSmall.gif (http://www.cafepress.com/obeyjoba)
GET 'EM WHILE THEY'RE HOT! (http://www.cafepress.com/obeyjoba)
(or while cafepress still doesn't notice that this breaks their terms of service.)

[Dan 'Hampton]

http://www.gotmelk.com/uploads/ObeyJobaSmall.gif (http://www.cafepress.com/obeyjoba)
GET 'EM WHILE THEY'RE HOT! (http://www.cafepress.com/obeyjoba)
(or while cafepress still doesn't notice that this breaks their terms of service.)

You got one with gnats on his face?

[Bulldogcakes]

Yea.. Maybe he uses his players alot in Fla.. But my question to you is.. Who else was he using?? He had like a 2mil dollar payroll to work with.. Young players.. He had to find the players that could do the job, and stick with them.. Who else was he using?? I do not think he will have that problem with the Yankees..

Marlin comparisons are largely bogus. He's a very smart guy, he knows you have to manage a team of rookies differently than you would a veteran team, and said so on the conference call (http://yankees.lohudblogs.com/) yesterday. The stuff about too many rules falls into that category as well. The big rule he imposed was "no facial hair (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Girardi)" a rule Steinbrenner has had with the Yankee since the 70's.

The stuff about him overusing pitchers is also complete and utter bullshit. It was spread by the Marlin brass after Girardi had the falling out with the owner, in an attempt to smear him on the way out. I guess Loria didn't want to look petty and had to come up with a baseball reason why he was let go. The NY Times looked into it and found no evidence to support the claim.

[Bulldogcakes]

don't forget he might be in charge of two-three franchise young pitchers in hughes/chamberlin/and kennedy.

Find me any evidence he abused his pitchers. He had his starting pitchers on pitch counts like everyone else, and if anything had a quick hook with them, not the other way around. He used his bullpen a lot, but with a young group of starters thats pretty unavoidable. Also, he had one of the youngest rotations in baseball, and young pitchers are always more prone to injury. They have little track record as to whether they can stay healthy, so there's no pre-Girardi period to compare with. Many young starters are throwing more innings than they ever have before in the minors, and thats when you're find out how they're going to hold up to that workload. Many don't, whoever the manager is.

The only incident anyone can point to is one time he brought a pitcher (Josh Johnson) back from an 82 minute rain delay, and that pitcher has been injury prone.

[Bulldogcakes]

Did anyone listen to Girardi's conference call yesterday and Mattingly's call today? (http://yankees.lohudblogs.com/)

Holey shit. I don't want to kill Donnie Baseball, but he sounds like a dope compared to Girardi. Even he didn't think the meeting went well. He said it went "OK". Girardi said yesterday his meeting went "Very well". This might be why Girardi went first, he sets the bar high and the rest fall short.

He went on to call the playoffs "A crap shoot" and said "the main thing is to just get into the playoffs" Sound familiar? Thats right, thats exactly what the guy they just got rid of always said.

And if that conference call is any measure (and it is, thats why they do them) Mattingly will not inspire any confidence during his press conferences in his abilities. Now I know why many around the Yankees question whether Mattingly is "ready". I'm not sure he ever will be. I also now know why he spent his entire life in Evansville, Indiana.

I've also yet to see any quotes from Hank praising Donnie Baseball. He was quick to praise Girardi last night. Might mean something, or nothing.

[TheGameHHH]

Find me any evidence he abused his pitchers. He had his starting pitchers on pitch counts like everyone else, and if anything had a quick hook with them, not the other way around. He used his bullpen a lot, but with a young group of starters thats pretty unavoidable. Also, he had one of the youngest rotations in baseball, and young pitchers are always more prone to injury. They have little track record as to whether they can stay healthy, so there's no pre-Girardi period to compare with. Many young starters are throwing more innings than they ever have before in the minors, and thats when you're find out how they're going to hold up to that workload. Many don't, whoever the manager is.

The only incident anyone can point to is one time he brought a pitcher (Josh Johnson) back from an 82 minute rain delay, and that pitcher has been injury prone.

i'm not really sure i ever said he did abuse his pitchers. find me that quote and then i'll try and defend that statement. but anyway, isn't the whole "abuse" thing kind of subjective? like, we all saw what Torre was doing and decided he did abuse his relief pitchers. but how exactly do you throw out a stat that says a manager abused pitchers? I'm just curious as to what kind of numbers we're talking here. like a Torre stat vs. a Girardi stat. Apparently the Times "looked into this", i'd like to know what they found.

[Bulldogcakes]

i'm not really sure i ever said he did abuse his pitchers. find me that quote and then i'll try and defend that statement. but anyway, isn't the whole "abuse" thing kind of subjective? like, we all saw what Torre was doing and decided he did abuse his relief pitchers. but how exactly do you throw out a stat that says a manager abused pitchers? I'm just curious as to what kind of numbers we're talking here. like a Torre stat vs. a Girardi stat. Apparently the Times "looked into this", i'd like to know what they found.

Its definitely hard to prove, but one easy way to hang it on the manager would be to show he let pitch counts get excessively high (over 115-120) for his starters. Maybe he started pitchers on short rest. And/or you might get quotes from relievers bellyaching about being used improperly.

I googled and looked for that Times article, but came up empty. Thats why I didn't link it. I remember reading it, I just can't find it. It talked about how Girardi's pitchers were kept on pitch counts, and they stayed within baseball norms. No evidence of abuse was found.

But then again, I'm not the one making the accusation here. If anyone has any evidence to back up their claim that Girardi abused his pitchers, please post it. And please be more specific than "some got hurt". We've covered that already.

[TheMojoPin]

I'd post extensive "proof,(I read tons of stats and reports and articles posted on numerous Cubs' boards and sites when his name was up in the air after Baker was shown the door)" but BDC is just going to act like my post doesn't exist.

I'll simply sit back and watch the Yankees go up in flames. I have no overt desire to see them fail, but I'll toss out an open $50 bet to the first taker that the Yanks end up with a worse record next year if Girardi takes over...to the point that they don't make the playoffs.

[TheGameHHH]

I'd post extensive "proof,(I read tons of stats and reports and articles posted on numerous Cubs' boards and sites when his name was up in the air after Baker was shown the door)" but BDC is just going to act like my post doesn't exist.

I'll simply sit back and watch the Yankees go up in flames. I have no overt desire to see them fail, but I'll toss out an open $50 bet to the first taker that the Yanks end up with a worse record next year if Girardi takes over...to the point that they don't make the playoffs.

can u post those stats for me then? cause im kinda curious about these numbers too. especially cause my only gripe with Torre was his misuse of the bullpen. and is the bet that they have a worse record or they dont make the playoffs?

[TheMojoPin]

can u post those stats for me then? cause im kinda curious about these numbers too. especially cause my only gripe with Torre was his misuse of the bullpen. and is the bet that they have a worse record or they dont make the playoffs?

Well, I guess I'll go all out and say they don't make the playoffs...they could end up having a worse record but still make it, and I think Girardi and this team are gonna clash hard. And I don't know what something dramatic like him quitting or getting fired would do...I guess automatically dismiss the bet.

I'll track down those old threads for you and start posting stuff here. Really, I have nothing against Girardi per se...I was originally interested in him taking over the Cubs, but after reading the mountain of analysis about him, no thanks. The pros always amount to "he seems like a good leader and he doesn't take any crap." And...? His team still sucked and he got fired. The Marlins front office is a bunch of dickbags, but many different breakdowns show that Girardi was hardly an innocent in the whole affair. Do Yankees fans REALLY want someone that stubborn and volatile working with their notorious front office?

[Doctor Z]

Wow... Donnie's conference call makes you REALLY appreciate the swagger and sheer charisma Joe Torre had with the media. I'm gonna miss that.

[TheGameHHH]

the more I read about him, the more i like Tony Pena

[HBox]

All I know is that the year Girardi was bench coach was the only year I sat back and was actually impressed with some of the in-game coaching moves. He's a smart mind and even if he was abusing his pitchers he said he's learned from the experience and the Yankee front office proved they will step in to protect their young pitchers.

[Bossanova]

Is Posada really going to take his old back up serious enough? Jeter is bigger than anything in that clubhouse. Will he actually put up with Girardi's tough guy style? I just don't like a guy who played with current members trying to now instruct them what to do.

[TheGameHHH]

Is Posada really going to take his old back up serious enough? Jeter is bigger than anything in that clubhouse. Will he actually put up with Girardi's tough guy style? I just don't like a guy who played with current members trying to now instruct them what to do.

Posada was Girardi's back-up

[TheMojoPin]

Is Posada really going to take his old back up serious enough? Jeter is bigger than anything in that clubhouse. Will he actually put up with Girardi's tough guy style? I just don't like a guy who played with current members trying to now instruct them what to do.

Great point.

I'm just surprised that a team as big as the Yankees seemingly limited themselves to like two choices.

[HBox]

Is Posada really going to take his old back up serious enough? Jeter is bigger than anything in that clubhouse. Will he actually put up with Girardi's tough guy style? I just don't like a guy who played with current members trying to now instruct them what to do.

He was already their bench coach in 2005. Kevin Long, the hitting coach, might be younger than some of the players. I don't think it matters.

[Bossanova]

Posada was Girardi's back-up

Girardi was on the Yanks from 96-99. I'm pretty sure Jorge was the starting catcher

Looking at the stats, looks like Posado became full time in '98

[Bulldogcakes]

Posada was Girardi's back-up

And he learned how to play the position under his tutilege.
He may be Girardi's biggest fan, I heard Kay say the other day he idolized Girardi.

The stuff about coaching your peers is a non issue. First, Girardi has stated many times he would seek their help in handling clubhouse issues and not be bossing them around. He said "The best clubhouses are ones that police themselves". Obviously in Fla, that wasn't an option for him.

Second, the 4 players were talking about who played with him (Jeter/Posada/Pettite/Mo) are the last guys you worry about, no matter who the manager is. Does anyone familiar with the team actually believe Derek Jeter (or any of the others) will become a 'clubhouse cancer'?

[TheGameHHH]

Girardi was on the Yanks from 96-99. I'm pretty sure Jorge was the starting catcher

Looking at the stats, looks like Posado became full time in '98

exactly, youre proving my point......who was who's back-up first?

[Bossanova]

exactly, youre proving my point......who was who's back-up first?

not trying to stir things up here. I was simply asking if Posada could handle it. No idea how they were with each other. Still don't like him as manager

[Bulldogcakes]

Girardi was on the Yanks from 96-99. I'm pretty sure Jorge was the starting catcher

Looking at the stats, looks like Posado became full time in '98

Posada was still part time until Girardi left.
Look at Posadas fielding stats (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3341&context=fielding). He didn't become a full time catcher until 2000. Posada was used as DH and PH on occasion.

Posada was buried behind Girardi for a long time, much longer than most catchers. He had a lot to learn.

[Bossanova]

I don't know why I though he was around earlier than that. My mistake gentlemen.

[Snacks]

Posada was Girardi's back-up

Posada was still part time until Girardi left.
Look at Posadas fielding stats (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3341&context=fielding). He didn't become a full time catcher until 2000. Posada was used as DH and PH on occasion.

Posada was buried behind Girardi for a long time, much longer than most catchers. He had a lot to learn.

correct posada was girardi's back up!
I think Girardi should get the job if not give buck another chance he built the original team that won in 96!

[BoondockSaint]

From Abraham's blog:

Brian Cashman said via e-mail that he would stay in Tampa tomorrow to meet with the Steinbrenners. It is expected a decision will be reached then.

“We’re very impressed with all three candidates,” Hank Steinbrenner said. “I told you it would be a tough decision.”

And then the announcement would be Friday. My guess is that it's going to be Howie Spira.

[Bulldogcakes]

And then the announcement would be Friday. My guess is that it's going to be Howie Spira.

Don Zimmer turned them down?

[BoondockSaint]

Don Zimmer turned them down?

Yeah, he's too busy teaching wrestlers how to take bumps.

[Bossanova]

What, only an in house minority interview?

[Kevin]

correct posada was girardi's back up!
I think Girardi should get the job if not give buck another chance he built the original team that won in 96!

Not if they want Arod back they wont..

[TheMojoPin]

It boggles my mind that they seemingly ignored anyone who didn't have some sort of connection to the organization.

[lleeder]

It boggles my mind that they seemingly ignored anyone who didn't have some sort of connection to the organization.

I was thinking the same thing today. Will it be the exact same coaching staff minus Torre? He leaves and everyone rotates up a spot? Maybe they can have Torre do commentary on YES.

[TheGameHHH]

I was thinking the same thing today. Will it be the exact same coaching staff minus Torre? He leaves and everyone rotates up a spot? Maybe they can have Torre do commentary on YES.

no because Gator is gone and Bowa is rumored to be out the door too.

[Snoogans]

he is gonna get joe peppitone as his bench coach

[BoondockSaint]

he is gonna get joe peppitone as his bench coach

The guy who created Central Park?

[Snoogans]

it would kick ass if they got mattingly and he hired torre as his bench coach

[Doctor Z]

I really don't think guys like Jorge and Jeter need motivation or guidance from their manager at this point, so it really wouldn't matter if they "take Girardi seriously" or not. It's the young guys that Girardi can have an impact on.

[TheGameHHH]

I really don't think guys like Jorge and Jeter need motivation or guidance from their manager at this point, so it really wouldn't matter if they "take Girardi seriously" or not. It's the young guys that Girardi can have an impact on.

For a while I was thinking the same thing, but then I realized that holding that opinion is bogus. EVERYBODY in the clubhouse needs to abide by the rules of a manager, no single person should be above their manager. They all need to take their next manager seriously, and I firmly believe they will.

[Doctor Z]

I never said those guys were ABOVE their manager, but it's being questioned whether or not Girardi would be able to motivate them to be winners. For veterans like that who have won 4 rings (5 in a just world), I don't think they need any more motivation. They know what it takes to win.

Besides, what does Mattingly have on Girardi? TWO years? Like it makes a difference.

Honestly, our best shot at a new manager came and went last year when we let Piniella get away.

[TheGameHHH]

I never said those guys were ABOVE their manager, but it's being questioned whether or not Girardi would be able to motivate them to be winners. For veterans like that who have won 4 rings (5 in a just world), I don't think they need any more motivation. They know what it takes to win.

Besides, what does Mattingly have on Girardi? TWO years? Like it makes a difference.

Honestly, our best shot at a new manager came and went last year when we let Piniella get away.

it just seemed to me that by you saying those guys didnt need guidance from their manager then that would imply they were above him in some way. doesn't that seem logical to you?

[Doctor Z]

Not necessarily. If I'm working for a company for 10 years, and I know what I have to do there, I don't really need my boss showing me the ropes anymore, but he's still my boss.

[TheGameHHH]

Not necessarily. If I'm working for a company for 10 years, and I know what I have to do there, I don't really need my boss showing me the ropes anymore, but he's still my boss.

so if Giradi puts on a hit and run to help the ball club and guide them to victory, Jeter doesnt have to listen to him because he's been there for 10 years?

[Doctor Z]

What?

[TheGameHHH]

What?

come on, seriously? i dont want to explain stuff to you, you know enough here. you originally said you dont think those guys need guidance from their manager. then u said because you've been at a place for so long, you don't need your boss showing you what to do. so what i did was give you an instance when a new manager would be providing guidance to one of his players. but by your logic, he doesn't really need to adhere to said guidance because of his tenure at his job.

[Doctor Z]

Motivation and a hit-and-run are totally different things. I said I don't think Posada and Jeter need to be motivated by Girardi at this point in their careers. I didn't say they should ignore in-game managerial decisions.

Which was the point I was getting across with my "boss" analogy. 10 years at a company, I probably don't need guidance anymore, but if my boss tells me to do something, I'm gonna do it, cuz he's still my boss.

[TheGameHHH]

Motivation and a hit-and-run are totally different things. I said I don't think Posada and Jeter need to be motivated by Girardi at this point in their careers. I didn't say they should ignore in-game managerial decisions.

Which was the point I was getting across with my "boss" analogy. 10 years at a company, I probably don't need guidance anymore, but if my boss tells me to do something, I'm gonna do it, cuz he's still my boss.

i took issue with your use of the word guidance. notice i didn't say anything about motivating those guys. I only said things that had to do with guiding them to a victory or guidance in general. and you did say those guys didn't need guidance. in game managerial decisions are a form of guidance.

[Doctor Z]

Yeah, I guess the definition of "guidance" is where the discrepancy lies. I meant guidance from an off-the-field standpoint. Torre was often described as a father-figure who could offer players guidance. When it comes to this, I don't think Mattingly has any more of an advantage over Girardi.

[Bulldogcakes]

Story (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/25/sports/baseball/25yankees.html?_r=1&ref=baseball&oref=slogin)

Hank Steinbrenner said that he would essentially leave the final call to General Manager Brian Cashman and his staff.

“If the baseball guys are unanimous or near it, that’s the way you’ve got to go,” he said, adding that there were no more interviews to be done.

Thats the smart thing to do. If you win on the field, all the other stuff (PR, Storylines, Yankee pedigree, ethnicity, etc) doesn't matter. If you don't win, none of it does. I take this as a somewhat hopeful sign that it will be Girardi, who Cashman has been long rumored to support.

And once again, all the people who tell you Cashman has lost his authority are either lost, or lying to you because they have an agenda.

[Doctor Z]

.WE SHOULD GIVE CARL PAVANO AN EXTENSION.