Jackie Brown vs. Kill Bill

[mikeyboy]

The idea for this thread came up during a conversation last week. Reservoir Dogs was a stunning debut from Quentin Tarantino. Pulp Fiction is his masterpiece. Jackie Brown came on the heels of Pulp Fiction, and many were disappointed because it wasn't Pulp Fiction, and for that reason, it's kind of underrated. It's not without it's flaws, but what movie is? It has really solid lead performances from Pam Grier and Robert Forster after they had largely disappeared from the spotlight, an intricate but clever plot from an Elmore Leonard novel, and support from Sam Jackson and Robert DeNiro.

Personally, I'm guessing I'm in the minority, but I enjoyed Jackie Brown more than either of the Kill Bill movies. Kill Bill Part 1 was too much style over substance, with dazzling action and fight sequences but little in the way of compelling plot, characters, or dialogue. Kill Bill Part 2 is much stronger in that respect and has the awesome "Superman" speech by David Carradine, but still feels somewhat incomplete.

So, I think Jackie Brown (considered by some to be Tarantino's flop) is actually better than the Kill Bill saga. Am I alone on this one?

Note: I'm sure I could have included Deathproof in this analysis, but I haven't seen it, and the real point of the thread, at least for me, is to point out that Jackie Brown is a better movie than people give it credit for.

[drjoek]

Jackie Brown was good Better then Deathproof But I still think Kill Bills were better

[MadMatt]

I'm with you Mikeyboy, I like Jackie Brown better. The Kill Bill movies are good, fun, "ass-kicking" movies, but IMO Jackie Brown has a better story and definitely better acting.

I actually saw Jackie Brown before I saw Pulp Fiction, so maybe that is why my opinion isn't jaded as much as that of some people.

[King Hippos Bandaid]

Love Me some Jackie Brown

:king:

[TheMojoPin]

I'm with you all the way, Mikey. JB blows away any film Tarantino has done since, even though I definitely enjoyed all of those. I definitely was kind of let down by JB when I first saw it in the theaters, but every time I've watch it since I appreciate it more and more. Great, great film.

Tarantino's whole career is something that really baffles me...the guy is a very talented writer and director, but I wonder if it's even possible for him to put together another film that's more "his" than an homage to other movies.

Reservoir Dogs was radically improved version of City On Fire.

True Romance was a radically improved version of Roger Avary's The Open Road.

Pulp Fiction is deifnitely his most original film, but a good chunk of it was written or created by Roger Avary, too.

Jackie Brown is great but it's ultimately an adaptation of Elmore Leonard's bookRum Punch.

The Kill Bill movies are, like, two dozen direct homages thrown together, though they still work as their own films.

Death Proof is the same as the KB flicks. Hell, so is From Dusk 'Til Dawn.

His next movie is the long-talked about The Inglorious Bastards, a WW2 movie about a bunch of criminal soldiers given a chance at redemption through a suicide mission. Now where have we heard that one before? Oh yeah, Kelly's Heros and The Dirty Dozen. I have little doubt Tarantino will still make a very watchable and very good film, but Jesus Christ, man...he's just an homage machine. I don't think he can write something at this point that's totally "his."

[RoyMunson]

I have always felt that Jackie Brown was a really good movie. The story, dialogue, acting was all really good plus the opening shot with Pam Grier walking through the airport while “Across 110th Street” playing is fucking great. Ranking Tarantino’s films I put this at a strong 3rd, 1st Reservior Dogs, 2nd Pulp Fiction, 3rd Jackie Brown (depending on the day of the week I may switch 2 and 3).

[Crispy123]

I loved Jackie Brown from the beginning. I loved Michael Keaton, Bridget Fonda, and Chris Tucker in their supporting parts and of course the main players. QT's pick of actors and the performance he gets out of them in each of his movies is amazing. That being said, Kill Bill as a duo are my favorites behind pulp fiction. I love all of his movies. KB I or II alone compared to Jackie Brown or Resevior dogs could be debated but as a pair are awesome (if that makes any sense).

[clarkgrizzwald]

Jakie Brown is by far QTs most underrated film so far... the one thing that I find strange about that movie is the linear storytelling... Reservoir Dogs, Pulp Fiction, Kill Bill 1&2 are all original works told in a non-linear or novel style then he adapts a novel and tells that story in a linear style... the movie really starts to flow during the robbery sequence and thats when he breaks the linear format... the movie also has great music, better than pulp fiction or reservoir dogs in my opinion

[JustJon]

I really think Jackie Brown is a much stronger film and stands up better over time.

[ChrisTheCop]

1. You can watch it in one sitting
2. One word: Deniro
3. Bridget Fonda's short shorts

I agree with you Mikey, and Ive had similar arguments with people.
I enjoyed Kill Bill, but I loved Jackie Brown.

[JPMNICK]

I'm with you all the way, Mikey. JB blows away any film Tarantino has done since, even though I definitely enjoyed all of those. I definitely was kind of let down by JB when I first saw it in the theaters, but every time I've watch it since I appreciate it more and more. Great, great film.

Tarantino's whole career is something that really baffles me...the guy is a very talented writer and director, but I wonder if it's even possible for him to put together another film that's more "his" than an homage to other movies.

Reservoir Dogs was radically improved version of City On Fire.

True Romance was a radically improved version of Roger Avary's The Open Road.

Pulp Fiction is deifnitely his most original film, but a good chunk of it was written or created by Roger Avary, too.

Jackie Brown is great but it's ultimately an adaptation of Elmore Leonard's bookRum Punch.

The Kill Bill movies are, like, two dozen direct homages thrown together, though they still work as their own films.

Death Proof is the same as the KB flicks. Hell, so is From Dusk 'Til Dawn.

His next movie is the long-talked about The Inglorious Bastards, a WW2 movie about a bunch of criminal soldiers given a chance at redemption through a suicide mission. Now where have we heard that one before? Oh yeah, Kelly's Heros and The Dirty Dozen. I have little doubt Tarantino will still make a very watchable and very good film, but Jesus Christ, man...he's just an homage machine. I don't think he can write something at this point that's totally "his."

i might be way off base here, but isn't there some theory out there that there are only so many plots that a movie can have. i am not sure if they just mean at the most basic level or how deep into the plot it goes. i think the number was somewhere around 100 plots.

[FUNKMAN]

like Jackie Brown better, Sam Jackson really carried it, he was exceptionally funny and dark. Love when he called beaumont a 'peanut head' and made him get in the trunk. One of the funniest exchanges I've heard in a movie...

[JPMNICK]

and back on topic, i was not a huge Kill Bill fan. I thought they were good, but not great instant classics. the 1st time i saw reservoir dogs, I just knew i loved it and i would always watch it down the road.

[TheMojoPin]

i might be way off base here, but isn't there some theory out there that there are only so many plots that a movie can have. i am not sure if they just mean at the most basic level or how deep into the plot it goes. i think the number was somewhere around 100 plots.

There's very few films out there that are genuinely and totally original, true...but it's a stretch to not point out how hinged Tarantino is to the genres and specific films he loved as he grew up. I think the main things with Tarantino is that when is "ripping off" someone or something, he almost always makes it so much better and, in a weird way, his own creation. There's really no way around how Reservoirs Dogs completely rips off City On Fire...but when they stack them up next to each other, the former is an infinitely better film than the latter, which is almost unwatchable.

This spliced short of both films shows how shameless he really was. RD is a great film, but it's pretty shady that Tarantino didn't even acknowledge COF or Ringo Lam at all.

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[patsopinion]

never been a fan of martial arts

[drusilla]

i hate kill bill cause it's just a chick flick cleverly disguised as an action movie. the ending pissed me off & was so anti climactic. YAY she got her daughter back. who cares i was already bored.

[clarkgrizzwald]

i might be way off base here, but isn't there some theory out there that there are only so many plots that a movie can have. i am not sure if they just mean at the most basic level or how deep into the plot it goes. i think the number was somewhere around 100 plots.

How many possible plots?

Thirty-six. Attributed to Carlo Gozzi and reprised by Georges Polti in The Thirty-Six Dramatic Situations (1917). Polti's somewhat daft exegesis states stating that there are precisely 36 emotions, which in some unclear manner are tied to the 36 situations. Nonetheless, many of his story lines unquestionably are timeless locomotives of plot, for example, Situation III, Crime Pursued by Vengeance--Charles Bronson's career in a nutshell. Or Situation XV, Murderous Adultery, which pretty much sums up Fatal Attraction. Others have a decidedly musty air, such as Situation XXXI, Conflict With a God, or XX, Self-Sacrificing for an Ideal. Not in this day and age, unless your ideal is Getting Vested in the Pension Plan.

Twenty. From 20 Master Plots (And How to Build Them) by Ronald Tobias (1993). Tobias doesn't claim these are the only plots, merely 20 serviceable ones. However, on going down the extremely generic list (Adventure, Revenge, Love, Rivalry, Escape, etc.), one thinks: for this I need a book?

Seven. The Internet Public Library quotes a list of seven plots (man versus nature, man versus man, etc.) that someone claims to remember from second grade. Not the most authoritative source, but no flakier than any of these other systems.

Three. From The Basic Patterns of Plot by William Foster-Harris (1959). Not one to be distracted by unnecessary detail, F-H divines three basic plots: (1) happy ending, (2) unhappy ending, and (3) the "literary" plot, "in which the whole plot is done backwards and the story winds up in futility and unhappiness."

Two. Tobias concedes that his 20 plots boil down to 2, "plots of the body" and "plots of the mind." Plots of the body are your action flicks, full of sound and fury, not necessarily signifying anything. Plots of the mind are more cerebral and often involve "searching for some kind of meaning," which sounds dangerously like the literary plot disdained by Foster-Harris.

Two. A man comes to town. A man leaves town.

One. One school of thought holds that all stories can be summed up as Exposition/Rising Action/Climax/Falling Action/Denouement or to simplify it even further, Shit Happens, although even at this level of generality we seem to have left out Proust.

See, this is the problem I have with all these schemata--first, no taxonomy can encompass everything in literature, and second, they don't tell you anything beyond the obvious. A more useful approach would be to abandon the chimera of universality and focus on what works today. By this light it seems to me that the most useful divide is: Everybody Gets Killed (or at least the hero[ine] does, e.g., Hamlet, Thelma & Louise, Romeo and Juliet, The Wild Bunch, American Beauty, etc.) versus Only the Bad Guys Get Killed (the collected works of Spielberg, Lucas, et al.). The former leaves you thinking life sucks, whereas the latter has everybody walking out of the theater with a smile. Naturally one can come up with numerous subdivisions, such as the one exemplified by Disney animated features, i.e., The Bad Guy Gets Killed but by Accident. In the odd case no one gets killed, but this is mostly in works by sensitive lady writers that seldom earn back the advance and even so usually have someone dying of cancer or in some other tragic manner (e.g., Terms of Endearment, Fried Green Tomatoes--come to think of it, someone did get killed in the latter. See what I'm saying?).

Now throw in the sizable genre of stories that may be characterized as The Protagonists Angle to Get One Another in the Sack and we begin to get a handle on the situation. My point is, never mind the 36, 20, 7, or whatever basic plots--take out sex, violence, and death and you lose 90 percent of literature or film right there.

[drjoek]

Time to rewatch Jackie Brown i guess

[Tall_James]

plus the opening shot with Pam Grier walking through the airport while “Across 110th Street” playing is fucking great

I was thinking the exact same thing. I love that song and how it was used.

[clarkgrizzwald]

I was thinking the exact same thing. I love that song and how it was used.
was that song originally in Foxy Brown?

[Kathleen From The Bronx]

Mikeyboy, you are wise........ I agree..... LOve, love, love Jackie Brown... I dug Kill Bill, but Jackie Brown has a lil spot in my heart f'real..... 'member when Max bought that Delfonics tape??? Awwwwww...... Besides everything else that people mentioned that was great... I so dug the interaction between Max Cherry and Jackie Brown.. Swweetness :0)

[sailor]

it seems like the hip/cool thing here to pick jackie brown, but kill bill was much better, overall.

[Stankfoot]

Jackie Brown good
Kill Bill better

[Slumbag]

As much as I love Jackie Brown, and I really do, I had to go Kill Bill.
That's out of my love kung-fu movies, and the fact Bea and her daughter
were watching Shogun Assassins, the GREATEST kung-fu movie of all time.

[Reephdweller]

While I totally like Kill Bill a lot for the action, and the flashiness I felt like there was little in the way of substance and story and more like a legend. I wasn't the biggest Jackie Brown fan when it first came out aside from some amazing scenes, I grew to like the movie a lot over the years and I think it's definitely a much better story than KB.

I haven't seen Deathproof yet. I saw it on sale as a standalone at Best Buy which annoys me that they are selling it that way as opposed to with both features that I'm not going to get it. Normally I would, but I wouldn't be surprised if it comes out by Xmas with both so I'll hold off.

[sailor]

While I totally like Kill Bill a lot for the action, and the flashiness I felt like there was little in the way of substance and story and more like a legend. I wasn't the biggest Jackie Brown fan when it first came out aside from some amazing scenes, I grew to like the movie a lot over the years and I think it's definitely a much better story than KB.

I haven't seen Deathproof yet. I saw it on sale as a standalone at Best Buy which annoys me that they are selling it that way as opposed to with both features that I'm not going to get it. Normally I would, but I wouldn't be surprised if it comes out by Xmas with both so I'll hold off.

i believe the stand-alone is an extended version of the movie and there's thread about it on here somewhere.

[RhinoinMN]

I pesonally loved Jackie Brown the moment that it came out because it wasn't Pulp Fiction. It showed the QT could go in a different direction, but still maintain his hip mark on his films. I thought that the mixture between Deniro's character's ineptness and the lil surfer girl's pain in the ass attitude was great. Loved the parking lot scene.

[cal5000]

Kill Bill as an original idea and style of picture was better than the adaptation of Jackie Brown.

[Tall_James]

was that song originally in Foxy Brown?

No, it was originally in this film.

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51QCA8GWW8L._AA240_.jpg

[TheMojoPin]

it seems like the hip/cool thing here to pick jackie brown, but kill bill was much better, overall.

Out of curiosity, why do you tend to dismiss so many pop culture opinions of people here that aren't in agreement with yours as just people trying to be "hip" or "cooler than thou?"

"Yo' ass used to be beautiful!"

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I personally like JB more because it's just more of an in-depth film-watching experience for me. It's got a ton of layers that get peeled back as the film goes along, especially once all the double and triple-crosses start happening. KB is a lot of fun but it's way too simple for me to get "into" it like I do with JB. Compound that with how most of the major scenes are just straight up homages to a dozen other films as opposed to something mostly original and I end up watching the film just as an "afternoon flick" as opposed to a actual film experience, which is what I prefer. That's why I pick one over the other...not because one is "cooler" than the other. That, and Pam Grier is, like, a zillion times hotter and more badass than Uma Thurman can ever hope to be.

[Ay Kay Forty2]

I think it's interesting how Jackie Brown was actually a Elmore Leonard novel called 'Rum Punch'. I picked it up and read a little bit of it, never got far in it but a big different is that Jackie Brown was white in the book. I think it's awesome how Quentin casted Pam Grier and it's kinda a throwback to Blaxploiation. Great stuff.

[sailor]

Out of curiosity, why do you tend to dismiss so many pop culture opinions of people here that aren't in agreement with yours as just people trying to be "hip" or "cooler than thou?"

"Yo' ass used to be beautiful!"

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I personally like JB more because it's just more of an in-depth film-watching experience for me. It's got a ton of layers that get peeled back as the film goes along, especially once all the double and triple-crosses start happening. KB is a lot of fun but it's way too simple for me to get "into" it like I do with JB. Compound that with how most of the major scenes are just straight up homages to a dozen other films as opposed to something mostly original and I end up watching the film just as an "afternoon flick" as opposed to a actual film experience, which is what I prefer. That's why I pick one over the other...not because one is "cooler" than the other. That, and Pam Grier is, like, a zillion times hotter and more badass than Uma Thurman can ever hope to be.


i don't think i tend to dismiss people's opinions, but this board has a great tendency to dismiss anything that is popular/mainstream. i didn't intend this to belittle anyone else's opinion, just stating where i think some people seem to me to be coming from.

[FUNKMAN]

one thing that bugged me slightly is the replaying of the song pam turned cherry onto(delfonics). everytime he put/had the tape in it was the same song and i'm sure that group had at least another hit song like LaLa Means I Love You, unless i am forgetting there was another delfonics song played...

and Bridgette Fonda is a hottie although she was a lame fuck in this movie

[TheMojoPin]

i don't think i tend to dismiss people's opinions, but this board has a great tendency to dismiss anything that is popular/mainstream. i didn't intend this to belittle anyone else's opinion, just stating where i think some people seem to me to be coming from.

Why?

[Reephdweller]

I'm with you all the way, Mikey. JB blows away any film Tarantino has done since, even though I definitely enjoyed all of those. I definitely was kind of let down by JB when I first saw it in the theaters, but every time I've watch it since I appreciate it more and more. Great, great film.


One of the very best reasons I listen to Ron & Fez as faithfully as I do is because no radio show or personalities have the ability to have their topics and discussions stick in my head long after the show has ended. Case in point the whole discussion of Quentin Tarantino's use of music from his films, and subsequently the talk about Jackie Brown. JB is without a doubt one of those movies that has gotten better and better over the years.

The characters, the plot, the way the movie was put together is just great at. Like Mojo said previously I wasn't thrilled with it when it first came out yet I'm drawn to the movie from time to time and each time I see it I take away something else that I like about it. This time around it was all about the music selections. Bridget Fonda in those short shorts...wow, and other smaller characters for example Michael Bowen as the ATF agent alongside Michael Keaton I didn't even make the connection that he was also Buck in Kill Bill. Little things like that and other things I see in his movies each time really make his films so enjoyable each time I see them.

[GreatAmericanZero]

they both are great. i only voted for Kill Bill cuz its longer and i can spend more time in QT world


btw, was "Jackie Brown" the last good movie Robert Deniro was in?

[lleeder]

Why does Mikeyboy not reveal the voters names? :thumbdown:

[lleeder]

never been a fan of martial arts

you should watch snoogans tips on the subject

[TheMojoPin]

they both are great. i only voted for Kill Bill cuz its longer and i can spend more time in QT world


btw, was "Jackie Brown" the last good movie Robert Deniro was in?

That or Cop Land. I forget which came out last.

[lleeder]

That or Cop Land. I forget which came out last.

Jackie Brown was more recent, 98. Cop Land was 97. You guys are forgetting him in The Bridge of San Luis Rey :unsure:?

[GreatAmericanZero]

That or Cop Land. I forget which came out last.

is copland really a "great" movie? Theres a million movies exactly like it

[epo]

is copland really a "great" movie? Theres a million movies exactly like it

Its not, but DeNiro's performance was one of his last good ones.

[west milly Tom]

Jackie brown>Kill Bill
Its just better. Kill bill is for comic book people, Jackie Brown is for movie people.

[CofyCrakCocaine]

I'll watch Jackie Brown all the way through if it's on TV. Can't say the same about either of the Kill Bills.

[GreatAmericanZero]

Its not, but DeNiro's performance was one of his last good ones.

perhaps. Cuz "Copland' was just a standard "all the police department is corrupt except one guy" movie with a really really good cast. But i don't think people watch Copland over and over again. I have never heard anyone quote "Copland" like they quote all the other great Robet Deniro movies

[epo]

perhaps. Cuz "Copland' was just a standard "all the police department is corrupt except one guy" movie with a really really good cast. But i don't think people watch Copland over and over again. I have never heard anyone quote "Copland" like they quote all the other great Robet Deniro movies

I've always thought that "Copland" was the perfect example of a cast being better than the script they were given.

[TheMojoPin]

is copland really a "great" movie?

No. Nobody said it was a great movie. I think it's a good one, but nothing really exceptional. I just like those solid "70's style" city dramas.

[sailor]

Why?

'cause.

[GreatAmericanZero]

what frustrates me most about Deniro is, if you take his top 5 best movies, u can argue "these are my top 5 favorite films of all time" and its a legitimate list. like if someone said

"My favorite films of all time are

1. Taxi Driver
2. Godfather 2
3. Raging Bull
4. Goodfellas
5. Brazil (my personal 3rd fav film of all time)

or even substitute a 'Jackie Brown', 'Mean Streets', 'King of Comedy', 'Deerhunter' or even 'heat', someone could say "ok, i disagree with some of that list, but it makes sense and i can understand that list"

but then, looking at his imdb, i know "jackie brown" came out on christmas and it says 97. Since 97...not only has his movies been either mediocre or bad..there are some of the worst movies ever made on that list ("hide & seek", "analyze that", "showtime" with eddie murphy (that one hurt), sharktale..jeez the list goes on and on). Its just such a dissapointment