Belichick punishment

[oh_kee_pa]

WCVB (the TV network affiliate of the Pats) is reporting 2 High draft picks (as much as a 1st and 3rd) and a 500K fine that Belichick must pay himself.

[JPMNICK]

WCVB (the TV network affiliate of the Pats) is reporting 2 High draft picks (as much as a 1st and 3rd) and a 500K fine that Belichick must pay himself.

They have a chance to win the super bowl this year, how much impact will 2 draft picks really have.

[TheGameHHH]

during the broadcast of the Yankees game on the YES Network Ken Singleton just made a Pats/video joke, I can't escape this. the sooner this blows over the better

[underdog]

A FIRST?! That's fucking retarded.

[TheGameHHH]

They have a chance to win the super bowl this year, how much impact will 2 draft picks really have.

draft picks matter, especially for the Pats, considering year in and year out they out-draft the entire league.

[Bossanova]

A FIRST?! That's fucking retarded.

So is cheating for years

[JPMNICK]

draft picks matter, especially for the Pats, considering year in and year out they out-draft the entire league.

yea i guess i was thinking that this has been going on for a while, but there is no proof to back that up, so really this is just a punishment of what happened at 1 game.

[spoon]

So is cheating for years

And who's to say it didn't make the dif in the playoffs including super bowl wins? I can't tell you for sure, but it's going to be debated once we find out more details. Hell, it may have cost coaches and players their jobs too, while protecting his own. I hate cheating no matter how small it's impact. And I'm not a homer either as Glaus can fucking rot for all I care if he cheated with the Jays. Now try that with the yank fans with Clemens, Giambi, Shef and ???

[Bossanova]

And who's to say it didn't make the dif in the playoffs including super bowl wins? I can't tell you for sure, but it's going to be debated once we find out more details. Hell, it may have cost coaches and players their jobs too, while protecting his own. I hate cheating no matter how small it's impact. And I'm not a homer either as Glaus can fucking rot for all I care if he cheated with the Jays. Now try that with the yank fans with Clemens, Giambi, Shef and ???

Some Eagles are now saying how Brady knew when they were going to blitz in the 2005 Super Bowl.

[Kevin]

Its Harsh, but Goodell had to come down hard here.. He came down hard on the players, Black players.. He couldnt go easy on white ownership and coaches.. I know its stupid, but he had to do it..

[Bossanova]

Why isn't anyone else reporting this decision?

[spoon]

Its Harsh, but Goodell had to come down hard here.. He came down hard on the players, Black players.. He couldnt go easy on white ownership and coaches.. I know its stupid, but he had to do it..

As Bossonova showed in his post, it opens the door to sooo much speculation that it IS a really big deal....and not the first time they've been caught. If you really want something to stop, steroids, HGH, spying, you levy huge fines and more like they just did in F-1 Racing. 100 million buck fine will surely stop that type of action as even the cheating over time couldn't make that money up. And that's how you have to evaluate this situations. Why is it people cheat in this situations? Legacies and money in the form of contracts and endorsements. Hence make the fine revolve around those parameters. Would McGuire made the money he did at the end of his career if he didn't juice? Doubt it. And he took that money from other natural players in my mind.

[BMoses]

I was thinking for a suspension for Belichick. I think keeping him away from day to day operations and games for a couple of weeks would have been an impact.

[Kevin]

As Bossonova showed in his post, it opens the door to sooo much speculation that it IS a really big deal....and not the first time they've been caught. If you really want something to stop, steroids, HGH, spying, you levy huge fines and more like they just did in F-1 Racing. 100 million buck fine will surely stop that type of action as even the cheating over time couldn't make that money up. And that's how you have to evaluate this situations. Why is it people cheat in this situations? Legacies and money in the form of contracts and endorsements. Hence make the fine revolve around those parameters. Would McGuire made the money he did at the end of his career if he didn't juice? Doubt it. And he took that money from other natural players in my mind.

Yea, agreed.. every organization or league or corp has to do anything thats possible to prevent cheating and the thought that your org or league does it.. Esp with the gambling aspect of the NFL.. Don't kid yourself, one of the main reasons why NFL is so popular and is a multi Billion dollar business is gambling.. A good % of people who watch the sport, watch it for gambling reasons.. If they start thinking that the sport is not on the up and up, it will be a disaster for the league.. Especially with the Pats.. One of the model if not the model franchise in the league..

[TheGameHHH]

Some Eagles are now saying how Brady knew when they were going to blitz in the 2005 Super Bowl.

of course theyre saying that.....what else are they gonna say, 'we lost cause our QB was out of shape?'......it wouldnt surprise me if panthers or rams players said the same thing.

[Snacks]

I Will admit Im a hypocrite when it comes to this. I love Barry Bonds and defend him all the time yet this bothers me. It could be b/c Im a Dolphins fan or I hate Belidick o i mean Belichick and Brady. I dont know. But atleast in this case I know im a hypocrite.

[BoondockSaint]

They should have made Belichick coach the Jets. Now that's punishment.

[drjoek]

Bellicheck is a punk

[Kevin]

They should have made Belichick coach the Jets. Now that's punishment.

Raiders??

[spoon]

I Will admit Im a hypocrite when it comes to this. I love Barry Bonds and defend him all the time yet this bothers me. It could be b/c Im a Dolphins fan or I hate Belidick o i mean Belichick and Brady. I dont know. But atleast in this case I know im a hypocrite.

At least you put it out there ant. And Kev brought up a huge point (not the way I thought he was gonna go with it at first) with the gambling aspect. I think it's a huge factor as you stated and it will factor in the ruling (behind the scenes).

[Bossanova]

I Will admit Im a hypocrite when it comes to this. I love Barry Bonds and defend him all the time yet this bothers me. It could be b/c Im a Dolphins fan or I hate Belidick o i mean Belichick and Brady. I dont know. But atleast in this case I know im a hypocrite.

Same here. And now that my team the Eagles feel something was up in the Super Bowl have now gotten me interested I really feel one sided. The diff with Bonds in my eyes is that he still had to hit the ball, and it never helped the Giants win. The Pats had the ability to change the whole outcome of a game. Possibly Super Bowl titles, and as Spoon said. Many jobs could have been lost due to this. If it were the Browns I wouldnt be as upset, but this is a 3 time Super Bowl winner. Makes everything seem sketchy now.

[BMoses]

As Bossonova showed in his post, it opens the door to sooo much speculation that it IS a really big deal....and not the first time they've been caught. If you really want something to stop, steroids, HGH, spying, you levy huge fines and more like they just did in F-1 Racing. 100 million buck fine will surely stop that type of action as even the cheating over time couldn't make that money up. And that's how you have to evaluate this situations. Why is it people cheat in this situations? Legacies and money in the form of contracts and endorsements. Hence make the fine revolve around those parameters. Would McGuire made the money he did at the end of his career if he didn't juice? Doubt it. And he took that money from other natural players in my mind.

McLaren has an estimated operating budget of $402 million in 2006. Think is the NFL would fine the Pats a 1/4 of the overall budget or 1/4 of the Salary Cap. I know it isn't apples to apples but the Pats should take their lumps and move on.

[Bulldogcakes]

They have a chance to win the super bowl this year, how much impact will 2 draft picks really have.

There's also speculation that Belichick will bolt after this year because the Pats are notoriously cheap. Nobody can say for sure, because the details of his deal aren't made public. But he has been rumored as a possible replacement for Coughlin in NY as well as others.

If he does plan on leaving, then he should keep doing this and not even bother to try to hide it next time. Let Godall take all their picks for the next 10 years, he won't be there. Maybe the dumbest punishment in the history of sports. Punishes the organization instead of the coach who ordered it. If he walks, he gets away scott free. Belichick should be suspended a game, and that means a full week with practices. Since the organization was warned about this and failed to reign him in, they should get a penalty of some sort as well. Maybe a million dollar fine and/or a lower pick.

The reality is EVERY team does this every chance they get. Every team has guys in the booth or sidelines with binoculars trying to read the lips of the other teams coach/players. They just don't record it. Thats the big difference here, and sorry, thats not a big enough difference to take a 1st round pick IMO. The punishment doesn't fit the crime, its grossly excessive.

[Bossanova]

of course theyre saying that.....what else are they gonna say, 'we lost cause our QB was out of shape?'......it wouldnt surprise me if panthers or rams players said the same thing.

Well, one gut already said that. And until now, I blamed him too

[Bulldogcakes]

Now try that with the yank fans with Clemens, Giambi, Shef and ???

I can't fight you off on the Sheff and Giambi stuff. But to be fair, the Clemens stuff is all rumors and speculation. He's never been caught or tested positive.

[BMoses]

of course theyre saying that.....what else are they gonna say, 'we lost cause our QB was out of shape?'......it wouldnt surprise me if panthers or rams players said the same thing.

That's the big issue like Spoon and Bossanova pointed out. it leaves every game the Pats have won under Belichick open for speculation. Not to say that it was that big of a competitive advantage or the Pats wouldn't have won the game anyway. That is the big issue for the league office here, there is no telling how far back this activity goes back or how big of an impact it had.

[JPMNICK]

i agree with spoon. MASSIVE fines for any cheating will curtail it. if not, really what is so bad about it. so belichik gets fined 500k. he has 3 rings, whatever job he leaves for, he will be the highest paid coach in the game. plus he knows how much boston loves him, and he knows he will be forgiven

[spoon]

Same here. And now that my team the Eagles feel something was up in the Super Bowl have now gotten me interested I really feel one sided. The diff with Bonds in my eyes is that he still had to hit the ball, and it never helped the Giants win. The Pats had the ability to change the whole outcome of a game. Possibly Super Bowl titles, and as Spoon said. Many jobs could have been lost due to this. If it were the Browns I wouldnt be as upset, but this is a 3 time Super Bowl winner. Makes everything seem sketchy now.


Bossa, the same impact occured in the NL when the Giants rode Bonds all the way to the WS a few years back. I have a huge issue with him just the same. It just wasn't meant to happen the way it did, it was manipulated by drugs as opposed to film or setup (Blacksox).

[JPMNICK]

i think the tarnished legacy, considering other have mentioned this in the past and now it is proven, is what really hurts the patriots as an organization. it also hurts the NFL's credability with the fans and Las Vegas

[spoon]

Well, one gut already said that. And until now, I blamed him too

And perhaps if the Pats didn't have the tip on blitzes and more, McNabb right now might be remembered as a hero playing sick and Brady as a choke when Dawkins crushed him on a blitz "not picked up" and fumbled away the game. This isn't a case of everyone doing it. If so, why is it only the Pats have been caught, twice!? I fail to believe everyone does this shit. Perhaps Marty would have won his first SB last year as well? Perhaps he loses in the playoffs every year bc he's one of the few straight shooters? I'm not reliving the past as it's done, but this is a real touchy subject to me for all these reasons.

[Bossanova]

Bossa, the same impact occured in the NL when the Giants rode Bonds all the way to the WS a few years back. I have a huge issue with him just the same. It just wasn't meant to happen the way it did, it was manipulated by drugs as opposed to film or setup (Blacksox).

Holy crap, I totally forgot they were in the World Series

[JPMNICK]

And perhaps if the Pats didn't have the tip on blitzes and more, McNabb right now might be remembered as a hero playing sick and Brady as a choke when Dawkins crushed him on a blitz "not picked up" and fumbled away the game. This isn't a case of everyone doing it. If so, why is it only the Pats have been caught, twice!? I fail to believe everyone does this shit. Perhaps Marty would have won his first SB last year as well? Perhaps he loses in the playoffs every year bc he's one of the few straight shooters? I'm not reliving the past as it's done, but this is a real touchy subject to me for all these reasons.

all great points. the possibilities are almost infinite. There is no way to know if they would have won even 1 SB, let alone 3. Brady is a great QB, but a lot of guys would be much better if they knew the weak side linebacker was going to blitz, and to put the RB there to pick up the block

[Bossanova]

And perhaps if the Pats didn't have the tip on blitzes and more, McNabb right now might be remembered as a hero playing sick and Brady as a choke when Dawkins crushed him on a blitz "not picked up" and fumbled away the game. This isn't a case of everyone doing it. If so, why is it only the Pats have been caught, twice!? I fail to believe everyone does this shit. Perhaps Marty would have won his first SB last year as well? Perhaps he loses in the playoffs every year bc he's one of the few straight shooters? I'm not reliving the past as it's done, but this is a real touchy subject to me for all these reasons.

Just read were Heinz Ward and other Steelers feel the Patriots have cheated for years, including the AFC title game

[Bulldogcakes]

Perhaps Marty would have won his first SB last year as well? Perhaps he loses in the playoffs every year bc he's one of the few straight shooters? I'm not reliving the past as it's done, but this is a real touchy subject to me for all these reasons.

Maybe thats what happened to the Pats vs the Colts last year. Their camcorders broke after the first quarter.

[Bossanova]

As per ESPN


BREAKING NEWS Alert

Belichick Fined; Pats Lose Pick
The NFL slapped Bill Belichick with a maximum fine of $500,000 Thursday night; fined the Pats $250,000 and will take away their 2008 first-round draft choice if they reach the playoffs; or second- and third-round picks if they do not qualify for the playoffs.

[Bulldogcakes]

As per ESPN


BREAKING NEWS Alert

Belichick Fined; Pats Lose Pick
The NFL slapped Bill Belichick with a maximum fine of $500,000 Thursday night; fined the Pats $250,000 and will take away their 2008 first-round draft choice if they reach the playoffs; or second- and third-round picks if they do not qualify for the playoffs.


Gay.

[PhilDeez]

Gay.

Totally agreed. Understand the max 500k fine, but fine Kraft and the organization as well. One lousy draft pick, please the guy is a cheat, and compromised the integrity of the game.
He will coach without suspension, and probably continue to find ways to cheat the game, while Mike Vick's off field transgressions that had absolutely no impact on the outcome of a game, will keep him out of football.
After this, I do call into question the "greatness" of the 7th round phenom Brady. Another post correctly pointed out he could have easily been remembered as the choke who fumbled the SB away after a sack.

[Bulldogcakes]

Totally agreed. Understand the max 500k fine, but fine Kraft and the organization as well. One lousy draft pick, please the guy is a cheat, and compromised the integrity of the game.
He will coach without suspension, and probably continue to find ways to cheat the game, while Mike Vick's off field transgressions that had absolutely no impact on the outcome of a game, will keep him out of football.
After this, I do call into question the "greatness" of the 7th round phenom Brady. Another post correctly pointed out he could have easily been remembered as the choke who fumbled the SB away after a sack.

Or as I said before, if he plans on leaving after the season he gets away with it without any punishment.

Godall is lost.

[Kevin]

Thats such a pussy move by Goodell.. no #1 if they don't make it.
Make a move and stick to your guns..

[Bossanova]

I hate this call. Very weak

[sailor]

Or as I said before, if he plans on leaving after the season he gets away with it without any punishment.

Godall is lost.

isn't the 500k from his own pocket? that almost sounds like punishment.

[underdog]

So is cheating for years

No, cheating for years is smart. Getting caught is retarded.

There's so much to respond to in this thread that I cannot even wrap my head around it.

To the people saying a #1 is not big deal, think of it this way :

The Patriots lost a Lawrence Maroney type player. FOREVER. Not for 4 games. Not for a season. For that players' ENTIRE FUCKING CAREER.

The Patriots have lost a FIRST ROUND DRAFT PICK. These are their last 1st round picks :

Richard Seymour
Daniel Graham (who is gone anyway)
Ty Warren
Vince Wilfork
Ben Watson
Logan Mankins
Lawrence Maroney
Brandon Meriweather

They've lost a player of this caliber forever. A first round choice is a HUGE deal.

Luckily, they traded with the 49ers and have their 1st rounder this year, too. Hopefully they take the Pats first rounder and not the better of the two.

And as far as the Eagles, they were blaming McNabb up until recently for being a shitty QB and puking in the 4th quarter. And in the Patriots 3 Super Bowl titles, they've played WORSE in the 2nd half, where the "espionage" should have helped them the most.

And the Steelers just got fucking outcoached when they lost in 01.

Perhaps Marty would have won his first SB last year as well?

Yeah, and he had no cheaters on his team, either!

[Bossanova]

No, cheating for years is smart. Getting caught is retarded.

There's so much to respond to in this thread that I cannot even wrap my head around it.

To the people saying a #1 is not big deal, think of it this way :

The Patriots lost a Lawrence Maroney type player. FOREVER. Not for 4 games. Not for a season. For that players' ENTIRE FUCKING CAREER.

The Patriots have lost a FIRST ROUND DRAFT PICK. These are their last 1st round picks :

Richard Seymour
Daniel Graham (who is gone anyway)
Ty Warren
Vince Wilfork
Ben Watson
Logan Mankins
Lawrence Maroney
Brandon Meriweather

They've lost a player of this caliber forever. A first round choice is a HUGE deal.

Luckily, they traded with the 49ers and have their 1st rounder this year, too. Hopefully they take the Pats first rounder and not the better of the two.

And as far as the Eagles, they were blaming McNabb up until recently for being a shitty QB and puking in the 4th quarter. And in the Patriots 3 Super Bowl titles, they've played WORSE in the 2nd half, where the "espionage" should have helped them the most.

And the Steelers just got fucking outcoached when they lost in 01.

Perhaps Marty would have won his first SB last year as well?

Yeah, and he had no cheaters on his team, either!

But his cheater was suspended for 4 games. So your point is null and void wise ass

[sailor]

And in the Patriots 3 Super Bowl titles, they've played WORSE in the 2nd half, where the "espionage" should have helped them the most.

if you're videotaping an opponent's signals, common sense dictates this advantage couldn't be realized until the second half of a game,...But during all three Super Bowls, the Pats were better in the first half and not nearly as good in the second half -- in fact, they barely held on in the final few minutes to win all three games.

hmmm (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070912)

[underdog]

But his cheater was suspended for 4 games. So your point is null and void wise ass

But there were still cheaters on his team that attributed to his early season wins, you void ass.

hmmm (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070912)

I never said I was original. I'm from Boston.

[Bossanova]

But there were still cheaters on his team that attributed to his early season wins, you void ass.



I never said I was original. I'm from Boston.

Who else cheated homer

[underdog]

Who else cheated homer

Luis Castillo, Bart.

And yes, I'm a homer. More so with the Patriots than any other team.

[Fezticle98]

I think they should've given Belichik a good bare-bottom spanking.

Yes, it is cheating and deserves to be punished, but I think it has been blown out of proportion. I think the fine, coupled with a 2 game suspension for Belichick would've been more appropriate.

Anyone that thinks this is going to kill the credibility of the NFL or in any way drive away fans is crazy. I'm really interested to figure out exactly how this cheating went down. I'm sure they weren't filming the Packers for future reference, because how often do they play them? If they were somehow able to put the cheating into effect in the same game, it's pretty ingenious.

Fuck all the teams that are crying about it now, except the Jets. The Steelers, Eagles, etc. should've said something earlier. Excuse making crybabies.

It is impossible for defenders of Bonds to criticize the Patriots, after all, you still have to make the tackles.

[SPeeDy_Freak]

I'll start by saying that I am a Patriots fan.

But I am sickened by any inferrence that a team (or coach or player) cheats.

Harrison deserved his suspension and Belichick deserves to suffer at least a one game suspension.

The picks and the fines mean nothing... he should have been removed from the sidelines.

For a life-long Patriot fan to say that speaks to the fact that I (as well as others I am sure) are sick of implications of cheating (HGH< steroids, video cameras, referees fixing games).

Let's get back to settling things on the field of play. Enough of this other bullshit.

[Bossanova]

I'll start by saying that I am a Patriots fan.

But I am sickened by any inferrence that a team (or coach or player) cheats.

Harrison deserved his suspension and Belichick deserves to suffer at least a one game suspension.

The picks and the fines mean nothing... he should have been removed from the sidelines.

For a life-long Patriot fan to say that speaks to the fact that I (as well as others I am sure) are sick of implications of cheating (HGH< steroids, video cameras, referees fixing games).

Let's get back to settling things on the field of play. Enough of this other bullshit.

(slow clap)

[underdog]

For a life-long Patriot fan to say that speaks to the fact that I (as well as others I am sure) are sick of implications of cheating (HGH< steroids, video cameras, referees fixing games).

Let's get back to settling things on the field of play. Enough of this other bullshit.

Sellout.

Just kidding.

But if you take HGH or steroids, aren't you still settling it on the field? Maybe I'm in the minority, but I have no problem with a bunch of roid-ed up super humans battling on the field for my enjoyment. Fuck all this tradition and "integrity" shit, especially when some of these sports banned minorities from playing for years. There's no integrity.

[sailor]

I think they should've given Belichik a good bare-bottom spanking.

Yes, it is cheating and deserves to be punished, but I think it has been blown out of proportion. I think the fine, coupled with a 2 game suspension for Belichick would've been more appropriate.

Anyone that thinks this is going to kill the credibility of the NFL or in any way drive away fans is crazy. I'm really interested to figure out exactly how this cheating went down. I'm sure they weren't filming the Packers for future reference, because how often do they play them? If they were somehow able to put the cheating into effect in the same game, it's pretty ingenious.

Fuck all the teams that are crying about it now, except the Jets. The Steelers, Eagles, etc. should've said something earlier. Excuse making crybabies.

It is impossible for defenders of Bonds to criticize the Patriots, after all, you still have to make the tackles.

i read somewhere that one of bill b's most trusted advisers supposedly has a photographic memory and is well paid by the organization even tho he doesn't really have any known role. it's speculated that he is instrumental in the implementation of their signal stealing. if i remembered where i read it, i'd post it, but you can just trust me for now.

[sailor]

Sellout.

Just kidding.

But if you take HGH or steroids, aren't you still settling it on the field? Maybe I'm in the minority, but I have no problem with a bunch of roid-ed up super humans battling on the field for my enjoyment. Fuck all this tradition and "integrity" shit, especially when some of these sports banned minorities from playing for years. There's no integrity.

and the united states used to have slavery.

[Bossanova]

I'll start by saying that I am a Patriots fan.

But I am sickened by any inferrence that a team (or coach or player) cheats.

Harrison deserved his suspension and Belichick deserves to suffer at least a one game suspension.

The picks and the fines mean nothing... he should have been removed from the sidelines.

For a life-long Patriot fan to say that speaks to the fact that I (as well as others I am sure) are sick of implications of cheating (HGH< steroids, video cameras, referees fixing games).

Let's get back to settling things on the field of play. Enough of this other bullshit.

Sellout.

Just kidding.

But if you take HGH or steroids, aren't you still settling it on the field? Maybe I'm in the minority, but I have no problem with a bunch of roid-ed up super humans battling on the field for my enjoyment. Fuck all this tradition and "integrity" shit, especially when some of these sports banned minorities from playing for years. There's no integrity.


Would you still feel this way if the Pats were the Pats of the 80's and the Jets did this after 3 Super Bowl wins?

[underdog]

i read somewhere that one of bill b's most trusted advisers supposedly has a photographic memory and is well paid by the organization even tho he doesn't really have any known role. it's speculated that he is instrumental in the implementation of their signal stealing. if i remembered where i read it, i'd post it, but you can just trust me for now.

That was definitely Simmons' column.

Would you still feel this way if the Pats were the Pats of the 80's and the Jets did this after 3 Super Bowl wins?

I know you won't believe it, but yes. I wasn't one of those people upset when Merriman got caught cheating last year, I just don't care. I expect these guys to go over the line every once in a while.

Of course, if it were the Jets, it would have felt worse, as they're the enemy. Or the Colts. But I read somewhere, I can't remember where, that people are so up in arms about this because people are actually emotional about the Pats. If people stepped back and thought what would this be like if it were the Jaguars, the reaction would be much differently.

Also, not to sound like a certain board member who always makes statements that sound like he knows what he's talking about, even though they usually end up completely false, Belichick is not going anywhere after this year. The Patriots are cheap (well, thrifty) with players, but not coaches. There's no salary cap for coaches, so Bill will get paid.

Although, that could just be me wanting him not to leave. I could definitely see him going to the front office, but from what I've read, they are grooming their OC/QB coach to be the next coach, so that may be a while before Bill leaves.

[Bossanova]

That was definitely Simmons' column.



I know you won't believe it, but yes. I wasn't one of those people upset when Merriman got caught cheating last year, I just don't care. I expect these guys to go over the line every once in a while.

Of course, if it were the Jets, it would have felt worse, as they're the enemy. Or the Colts. But I read somewhere, I can't remember where, that people are so up in arms about this because people are actually emotional about the Pats. If people stepped back and thought what would this be like if it were the Jaguars, the reaction would be much differently.

Also, not to sound like a certain board member who always makes statements that sound like he knows what he's talking about, even though they usually end up completely false, Belichick is not going anywhere after this year. The Patriots are cheap (well, thrifty) with players, but not coaches. There's no salary cap for coaches, so Bill will get paid.

Although, that could just be me wanting him not to leave. I could definitely see him going to the front office, but from what I've read, they are grooming their OC/QB coach to be the next coach, so that may be a while before Bill leaves.

I hear what you are saying, but if the Jags won 3 Super Bowls and their coach was an impossible person to deal with it would be the same reaction. The Patriots are were they are because the have won. And when you win and then you are caught for cheating........... It does NOT look good. Sorry if your a fan, but when winners cheat, that makes their wins less impressive

[Tenbatsuzen]

Also, not to sound like a certain board member who always makes statements that sound like he knows what he's talking about, even though they usually end up completely false, Belichick is not going anywhere after this year..

Do tell.... we're all friends here.

[Fallon]

Not a big deal. They will lose a first round pick because they are going deep in the playoffs.

This will blow over in a week or so.

[The Silencer]

hmmm i have to say i am disappointed...i mean it may affect the game but i dont know...Whenever a guy steals signs from second at our high school games, we just throw at there fucking ribcage and say keep your mouth shut! Ofcourse there is a difference in the cheating BUT it still is cheating!

[underdog]

I hear what you are saying, but if the Jags won 3 Super Bowls and their coach was an impossible person to deal with it would be the same reaction. The Patriots are were they are because the have won. And when you win and then you are caught for cheating........... It does NOT look good. Sorry if your a fan, but when winners cheat, that makes their wins less impressive

I don't disagree with anything you are saying here.

[ralphbxny]

I'll start by saying that I am a Patriots fan.

But I am sickened by any inferrence that a team (or coach or player) cheats.

Harrison deserved his suspension and Belichick deserves to suffer at least a one game suspension.

The picks and the fines mean nothing... he should have been removed from the sidelines.

For a life-long Patriot fan to say that speaks to the fact that I (as well as others I am sure) are sick of implications of cheating (HGH< steroids, video cameras, referees fixing games).

Let's get back to settling things on the field of play. Enough of this other bullshit.

(slow clap)

(stands up) (Joins slow clap)

[spoon]

hmmm (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070912)

That was a cute article and creative way to dispell the issue in a round about way. I'm not sold. The Pats got caught this way, and I'm sure they were doing other things that aren't on film. Perhaps getting footage of practice (closed door practices) or more. Bottom line is, you can continue to question these things as long as you want bc the door is open and the play calls from Billy were always "genius". As for them not playing great in the second half of the SB, perhaps it's bc they didn't have the ability to land the needed seat at these games, or they would have been even worse if not for the cheating. We'll never know for sure. Hell, even the Pats won't know bc it's done and in the past.

[spoon]

Luis Castillo, Bart.

And yes, I'm a homer. More so with the Patriots than any other team.

Wrong. He was on hormones during his injury and came clean. It's the reason he dropped in the draft, he never tested positive in the NFL.

[Snacks]

I can't fight you off on the Sheff and Giambi stuff. But to be fair, the Clemens stuff is all rumors and speculation. He's never been caught or tested positive.

just to respond to this, Bonds never tested positive or did anything against baseball rules. Everything about Bonds and Steroids have been rumor. He never admitted to anything. Even when asked about the clear and the cream. He said he didnt know what he took. Without a positive test they can never say that he did take the cream and the clear. No one at Balco ever said he did it either. The closest someone has said to this is the formulator said he heard Bonds was on the program. He even admitted no one ever said what that meant and no one ever said he did the cream and clear. What Belidick did was cheating because it was a rule. The commish told every team 1 week before the season about this exact issue. The reason he told every team is b/c Green Bay, Miami, Buffalo and other teams made reports to the NFL over the past 3 seasons. The fact that Mangenius alerted the NFL tells me he knew they did it as well from when he coached there. So this goes back at least 3-4 years maybe more.

[spoon]

I think they should've given Belichik a good bare-bottom spanking.

Yes, it is cheating and deserves to be punished, but I think it has been blown out of proportion. I think the fine, coupled with a 2 game suspension for Belichick would've been more appropriate.

Anyone that thinks this is going to kill the credibility of the NFL or in any way drive away fans is crazy. I'm really interested to figure out exactly how this cheating went down. I'm sure they weren't filming the Packers for future reference, because how often do they play them? If they were somehow able to put the cheating into effect in the same game, it's pretty ingenious.

Fuck all the teams that are crying about it now, except the Jets. The Steelers, Eagles, etc. should've said something earlier. Excuse making crybabies.

It is impossible for defenders of Bonds to criticize the Patriots, after all, you still have to make the tackles.


Come on fez, knowing a blitz is coming bc you have their signals/plays is huge. Not only can you make an audible at the line, if not make a call in the huddle, you also get ready with your hot routes and perhaps keep you RBs in to block. Calling a devised screen over the blitzing side is an easy call. Or perhaps you man up your best receiver out wide for single coverage and if he comes up with the hot route catch, he's probably gone.

Let's say it's on the other side of the ball and you know they're planning on a bootleg, screen or whatever, do you really think it's hard to defend if you know what's coming? Come on! Sure it won't work on every play bc u do have to execute, but it helps ur team's odds incredibly. And that's not including all the other areas where we're not accustomed to covering being a football viewer vs. coaching staff/player. Hell, I haven't played since high school, but if I knew the plays I know damn well we may have been state champs. We came pretty close without cheating, and I wouldn't change that. It just wouldn't be true if not. But I can promise you we would have won if we had their signals/plays. It was a very close game when we went down.

[sailor]

That was a cute article and creative way to dispell the issue in a round about way. I'm not sold. The Pats got caught this way, and I'm sure they were doing other things that aren't on film. Perhaps getting footage of practice (closed door practices) or more. Bottom line is, you can continue to question these things as long as you want bc the door is open and the play calls from Billy were always "genius". As for them not playing great in the second half of the SB, perhaps it's bc they didn't have the ability to land the needed seat at these games, or they would have been even worse if not for the cheating. We'll never know for sure. Hell, even the Pats won't know bc it's done and in the past.

actually, i was just poking fun at underdog.

[spoon]

I'll start by saying that I am a Patriots fan.

But I am sickened by any inferrence that a team (or coach or player) cheats.

Harrison deserved his suspension and Belichick deserves to suffer at least a one game suspension.

The picks and the fines mean nothing... he should have been removed from the sidelines.

For a life-long Patriot fan to say that speaks to the fact that I (as well as others I am sure) are sick of implications of cheating (HGH< steroids, video cameras, referees fixing games).

Let's get back to settling things on the field of play. Enough of this other bullshit.


Bravo SF. My only problem with the suspension is that his coaches would be able to pick up the slack and realistically this wouldn't be a good punishment w/o a financial hit and a pick. This also sets the stage for the future of the league so I think the fine should be huge. As it stands (from what I read here) it's about right but still soft on the team and on suspensions. Bill should take a bigger hit to me. He's been warned numerous times and it's like a speeding fine to the organization, or less to be honest.

[spoon]

Sellout.

Just kidding.

But if you take HGH or steroids, aren't you still settling it on the field? Maybe I'm in the minority, but I have no problem with a bunch of roid-ed up super humans battling on the field for my enjoyment. Fuck all this tradition and "integrity" shit, especially when some of these sports banned minorities from playing for years. There's no integrity.

Disagree again. I want the NFL and all leagues to police it's leagues and continually make them better. I don't want roided cheaters all over the league and think if anyone is caught twice they should be gone, in any sense of cheating. That includes Merriman and Bill. Do you not want kids who are truly talented to be the ones making the money, not those cheating? We already have a roided sport that's fixed/simple entertainment, (WWE), do we want all sports to go this way and all records to mean shit when every generation comes up with new ways to cheat?

[Bulldogcakes]

Also, not to sound like a certain board member who always makes statements that sound like he knows what he's talking about, even though they usually end up completely false, Belichick is not going anywhere after this year. The Patriots are cheap (well, thrifty) with players, but not coaches. There's no salary cap for coaches, so Bill will get paid.

Wishful thinking by the guy from Boston. Charlie Wies, Romeo Crennell, Eric Mangini. They have a long history of making sure their coaches get taken care of, right? Since you know how the Pats pay their coaches, please enlighten us with what Belichick makes annually. So we can compare it to what other coaches make. Oh, thats right. Its never been made public. So you have no idea whether they take care of their coaches or not.

BTW-Glad to see you don't make any false statements.

[spoon]

That was definitely Simmons' column.
But I read somewhere, I can't remember where, that people are so up in arms about this because people are actually emotional about the Pats. If people stepped back and thought what would this be like if it were the Jaguars, the reaction would be much differently.............


You answered your own question. I told you it was a creative way to get them off the hook and spin the whole issue. Fuck that.:thumbdown:

[underdog]

Wrong. He was on hormones during his injury and came clean. It's the reason he dropped in the draft, he never tested positive in the NFL.

I think he tested positive for a type of steroid right before the combine. He "came clean" before the results were passed around to the teams.

And the steroid he tested positive for increases muscle growth, along with healing.

He tested positive for Andro. So he's like the Mark McGuire of the NFL combine.

[spoon]

just to respond to this, Bonds never tested positive or did anything against baseball rules. Everything about Bonds and Steroids have been rumor. He never admitted to anything. Even when asked about the clear and the cream. He said he didnt know what he took. Without a positive test they can never say that he did take the cream and the clear. No one at Balco ever said he did it either. The closest someone has said to this is the formulator said he heard Bonds was on the program. He even admitted no one ever said what that meant and no one ever said he did the cream and clear. What Belidick did was cheating because it was a rule. The commish told every team 1 week before the season about this exact issue. The reason he told every team is b/c Green Bay, Miami, Buffalo and other teams made reports to the NFL over the past 3 seasons. The fact that Mangenius alerted the NFL tells me he knew they did it as well from when he coached there. So this goes back at least 3-4 years maybe more.

Come on Ant, you can't be serious!! You sound like the repubs on Bush's lies and war info. If you had to put your life on the line and guess if he took them, 100% of the country would say he did and would be right.

[underdog]

Wishful thinking by the guy from Boston. Charlie Wies, Romeo Crennell, Eric Mangini. They have a long history of making sure their coaches get taken care of, right? Since you know how the Pats pay their coaches, please enlighten us with what Belichick makes annually. So we can compare it to what other coaches make. Oh, thats right. Its never been made public. So you have no idea whether they take care of their coaches or not.

BTW-Glad to see you don't make any false statements.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that the reason Mangini (left for HEAD COACHING JOB with the Jets), Crennell (left for HEAD COACHING JOB with the Browns) and Weis (left for HEAD COACHING JOB with Notre Dame) aren't with the Patriots is because of money? Really? Because assistant coaches turn down head coaching jobs ALL THE TIME.

What false statements am I making? I have no idea what Belichick makes, but why would the guy stick around (ALONG WITH FUCKING SCOTT PIOLI, WHO HAS BEEN PURSUED BY MANY OTHER TEAMS) if he's not making shit? This doesn't even make sense. He'd go to another franchise.

Jesus. :wallbash:

You answered your own question. I told you it was a creative way to get them off the hook and spin the whole issue. Fuck that.:thumbdown:

I was making fun of myself in the way that Sailor was making fun of me.

[underdog]

I don't even know why I'm arguing with people about this. I don't give a shit that the Pats were cheating but I hate the fact that they got caught. Especially since they've been warned and it was the SAME GUY who got caught both times.

I also hate the fact that this adds doubt to their wins and rings, especially because I feel so strongly that they would have won no matter what. They've just had great teams (teams, not players).

I think a 1st Round pick punishment was a bit harsh, but I don't have a major problem with it. The Patriots were dumb enough to keep cheating after being warned, especially in this day with Goddell absolutely killing people on suspensions and punishments. And for them to do it against the team being coached by their old DC is just moronic.

I'm sick of trying to justify this. The Patriots were STUPID, plain and simple. I assume every other team is doing stuff like this, but the Pats are the only ones that got caught and deserve whatever comes down on them. For such a "smart" organization, they were simply retarded.

So, fuck you Bill Belichick. This week should have been a huge buildup to one of the best games of the year, and you've made people like me attempt to defend your idiotic actions.

[spoon]

I think he tested positive for a type of steroid right before the combine. He "came clean" before the results were passed around to the teams.

And the steroid he tested positive for increases muscle growth, along with healing.

He tested positive for Andro. So he's like the Mark McGuire of the NFL combine.

Yah, that's pretty much it. He came out on his own to all the teams and has submitted for extra tests by the league and the team that drafted him as he said he would do. He admitted to a mistake (as a kid which I give more leniency for but not totally), and owned up to it. I give him more credit for it all, vs the moves of Barry and others out there. Including Merriman claiming it was in his supplement. Fuck that too.

[underdog]

Yah, that's pretty much it. He came out on his own to all the teams and has submitted for extra tests by the league and the team that drafted him as he said he would do. He admitted to a mistake (as a kid which I give more leniency for but not totally), and owned up to it. I give him more credit for it all, vs the moves of Barry and others out there. Including Merriman claiming it was in his supplement. Fuck that too.

I definitely agree with you. The way he did it was very good. He was upfront and honest with everyone.

[Fezticle98]

Come on fez, knowing a blitz is coming bc you have their signals/plays is huge. Not only can you make an audible at the line, if not make a call in the huddle, you also get ready with your hot routes and perhaps keep you RBs in to block. Calling a devised screen over the blitzing side is an easy call. Or perhaps you man up your best receiver out wide for single coverage and if he comes up with the hot route catch, he's probably gone.

Let's say it's on the other side of the ball and you know they're planning on a bootleg, screen or whatever, do you really think it's hard to defend if you know what's coming? Come on! Sure it won't work on every play bc u do have to execute, but it helps ur team's odds incredibly. And that's not including all the other areas where we're not accustomed to covering being a football viewer vs. coaching staff/player. Hell, I haven't played since high school, but if I knew the plays I know damn well we may have been state champs. We came pretty close without cheating, and I wouldn't change that. It just wouldn't be true if not. But I can promise you we would have won if we had their signals/plays. It was a very close game when we went down.

Yeah, I was more really making fun of the Bonds' apologists and their "he still has to hit the ball" argument regarding hand-eye coordination. Obviously, if they have the opposing teams defensive call, it would be a huge help. I wish I had the other teams calls when I played in high school, it would have ruled!

I guess it is a question of cheating vs. gamesmanship or how big of a cheat it is. Certainly could provide a big advantage, but they just took it one step further from observing signals to recording them. I think some responsibility rests with other teams for allowing their signals to be deciphered so easily.

I can't wait until the entire thing comes to light so we can see exactly what and how they did it.

[spoon]

Yeah, I was more really making fun of the Bonds' apologists and their "he still has to hit the ball" argument regarding hand-eye coordination. Obviously, if they have the opposing teams defensive call, it would be a huge help. I wish I had the other teams calls when I played in high school, it would have ruled!

I guess it is a question of cheating vs. gamesmanship or how big of a cheat it is. Certainly could provide a big advantage, but they just took it one step further from observing signals to recording them. I think some responsibility rests with other teams for allowing their signals to be deciphered so easily.

I can't wait until the entire thing comes to light so we can see exactly what and how they did it.


I doubt very much we'll hear this expanded on outside of the fines layed out. The Pats will bury it, just as the NFL will. I would love to know more as well, but I doubt it will be released.

[sailor]

That was definitely Simmons' column.

speaking of the sports guy, i LOVE how belichick basically pulled a giambi. i'm sorry. for what? i'm just sorry. for cheating? i'm sorry.

freakin' hilarious.

[Snacks]

I don't even know why I'm arguing with people about this. I don't give a shit that the Pats were cheating but I hate the fact that they got caught. Especially since they've been warned and it was the SAME GUY who got caught both times.

I also hate the fact that this adds doubt to their wins and rings, especially because I feel so strongly that they would have won no matter what. They've just had great teams (teams, not players).

I think a 1st Round pick punishment was a bit harsh, but I don't have a major problem with it. The Patriots were dumb enough to keep cheating after being warned, especially in this day with Goddell absolutely killing people on suspensions and punishments. And for them to do it against the team being coached by their old DC is just moronic.

I'm sick of trying to justify this. The Patriots were STUPID, plain and simple. I assume every other team is doing stuff like this, but the Pats are the only ones that got caught and deserve whatever comes down on them. For such a "smart" organization, they were simply retarded.

So, fuck you Bill Belichick. This week should have been a huge buildup to one of the best games of the year, and you've made people like me attempt to defend your idiotic actions.

I dont know about that statement.
They won all 3 super bowls on the kickers leg. All 3 came down to the end with NE making a game winning drive with min/seconds left. The advantage of knowing the defensive package is huge. If you know they have a blitz then you call rb slants that give you the sidelines and 20 to 30 yard plays. If they are spread out you know to call inside routes. My point is they might not have the opportunity to kick a field goal if they couldnt move the ball. Imagine if the role was reversed and a def knew all offenses plays called before the snap? The defense would be all over options, 1,2 and 3 the QB would get killed. I really do question if they would have won any of those 3 SB. If they won them all by 10-20 or more points then you cant question anything. But all 3 by 3 points, does seem a little ironic

[underdog]

speaking of the sports guy, i LOVE how belichick basically pulled a giambi. i'm sorry. for what? i'm just sorry. for cheating? i'm sorry.

freakin' hilarious.

Sport apologies are always really funny.

[underdog]

Wishful thinking by the guy from Boston. Charlie Wies, Romeo Crennell, Eric Mangini. They have a long history of making sure their coaches get taken care of, right? Since you know how the Pats pay their coaches, please enlighten us with what Belichick makes annually. So we can compare it to what other coaches make. Oh, thats right. Its never been made public. So you have no idea whether they take care of their coaches or not.

BTW-Glad to see you don't make any false statements.

You still haven't defended your weird statements here.

Also, Belichick given extension through 2013 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3023193&campaign=rss&source=NFLHeadlines).