Mets-Phillies Debate

[The Blowhard]

Okay, you're a GM, and you are building a team. Would you rather have the left side of the Mets infield(David Wright, Jose Reyes) or the right side of the Phillies infield(Ryan Howard, Chase Utley)???

Tough call, but it's hard not to choose the Mets, mainly because of the most exciting player in the game, Jose Reyes. But then again, it's hard to ignore Howard's power numbers.
Hmmm.

[Freitag]

Reyes and Wright are more complete baseball players. Speed, power, hitting for average, good D. Gotta go with the Mets.

[Earlshog]

Don't forget about Jimmy Rollins..

On pace for 200 hits 140 runs 30 homers 100 RBI's 40 steals and better fielder then Reyes...

[Redding]

Its very tough decision because with Wright and Reyes have great averages and no one steals bases like Reyes but with Howard and Utley you have two guys that do nothing but drive in runs. last year Howard was NL MVP and before the injury Utley was on his way to being considered for the MVP this year. I personally think its a push.

[Tallman388]

It's a very tough call, but I'd take the Philles right side by the slightest margin.
If we include the home field, then I'd take the Phils, but all things being equal, it's basically 50.1% to 49.9% for Utley & Howard.

[spadanko]

and better fielder then Reyes...


um... reyes has the best range avg. in baseball... baseball America ranks him the best defensive SS in all of baseball. Rollins is a great player, but his defense is not what makes him so great.


the mets side is also younger, although i do love utley. I don;t know how long howard will be an NL player. He is ridiculous, but i see him becoming like Papi (which is not necessarily a bad thing)

[hammersavage]

Gotta go with Wright/Reyes.

Howard is 27. Utley is 28.

Wright and Reyes are both 24.

You're gonna get more years out of the Mets. The Phillies side is better today but the gap is so close that the age differential makes the difference.

[Earlshog]

[QUOTE=spadanko;1429496]um... reyes has the best range avg. in baseball... baseball America ranks him the best defensive SS in all of baseball. Rollins is a great player, but his defense is not what makes him so great.QUOTE]

well thats crazy talk


Reyes does have better range, Rollins has a stronger arm...

[BeerBandit]

[quote=spadanko;1429496]um... reyes has the best range avg. in baseball... baseball America ranks him the best defensive SS in all of baseball. Rollins is a great player, but his defense is not what makes him so great.QUOTE]

well thats crazy talk


Reyes does have better range, Rollins has a stronger arm...

I strongly disagree. Reyes has the cannon. Did you see him throw the runner out at first after ranging deep to his right last week. I think it was against the Braves. Somebody help me out. There's no way he should've gotten the runner out. I've never seen a more impressive throw. Except maybe that Laser Ichiro threw home ~last year.

[IMSlacker]

I'll take Reyes and Wright 100 times out of 100.

[Earlshog]

[quote=Earlshog;1429534]

I strongly disagree. Reyes has the cannon. Did you see him throw the runner out at first after ranging deep to his right last week. I think it was against the Braves. Somebody help me out. There's no way he should've gotten the runner out. I've never seen a more impressive throw. Except maybe that Laser Ichiro threw home ~last year.

Reyes has a great arm... Rollins arm is just better....

[BoondockSaint]

Reyes has a great arm... Rollins arm is just better....

I'm not even sure he's in the top 3 in the N.L. I'd put Reyes and Furcal ahead of him and maybe Tulowitzki.

[EddieMoscone]

I'm a Mets fan, and while I would take Wright and Reyes because of youth and the defensive importance of their positions, Chase Utley is one of the few players on another team (especially a rival) that I would DIE to have on my team.

[Earlshog]

I'm not even sure he's in the top 3 in the N.L. I'd put Reyes and Furcal ahead of him and maybe Tulowitzki.

we need an all star competion... get out the gun...

[topless_mike]

fuck philly.














"i was only joking"

[K.C.]

Utley and Howard as a combination is flat out better than Reyes/Wright right now. More power, better in average (generally speaking), better On-Base, draws more walks. Not to say Reyes and Wright won't continually get better, but you just don't know.

With the Reyes/Wright combo, you get quality defensive and speed, both of which are important...but it's a hell of a lot easier to acquire players to boost your team's defense and speed than it is to find the caliber of hitters that Utley and Howard

Not to slight the Mets players, though...the biggest advantage at this point is they're younger,(Reyes and Wright are 3-4 years younger), so you'd conceivably get them for longer.

But it's tough to match the production you get from Utley and Howard.


P.S.: Jimmy Rollins may be better than all four players mentioned in this debate...AND, both Rollins and Hanley Ramirez are better than Jose Reyes right now.

[cougarjake13]

see everyone's comparing the twosomes to each other

but what you gotta do is compare them to what else you'd get if you went the other way

so for example if you pick wright and reyes who would you get to play 2nd and first

or if you pick howard and utley who do you get for ss and third


so by that i think you can find at least 2-5 other howard like first baseman (prince fielder is one) as well as 2-5 utley type players at 2nd

there arent many reyes type shortstops out there and wright isnt the best 3rd baseman but he's gotta be in the top 3 playing right now

[Earlshog]

see everyone's comparing the twosomes to each other

but what you gotta do is compare them to what else you'd get if you went the other way

so for example if you pick wright and reyes who would you get to play 2nd and first

or if you pick howard and utley who do you get for ss and third


so by that i think you can find at least 2-5 other howard like first baseman (prince fielder is one) as well as 2-5 utley type players at 2nd

there arent many reyes type shortstops out there and wright isnt the best 3rd baseman but he's gotta be in the top 3 playing right now

who are the other 2 - 5 Utley like players at second?

There more third base men and SSs comprable to Wright and Reyes then second basemen to Utley

[cougarjake13]

who are the other 2 - 5 Utley like players at second?

There more third base men and SSs comprable to Wright and Reyes then second basemen to Utley

placido polanco

dan uggla

brian roberts

robbie cano

jeff kent

brandon phillips

richie weeks


on a lesser level kinsler and hudson

[Earlshog]

placido polanco

dan uggla

brian roberts

robbie cano

jeff kent

brandon phillips

richie weeks


on a lesser level kinsler and hudson


The only person even close is Roberts.... thats one

At third A-Rod and Cabrera are better

Chipper, Zimmerman, Atkins and Rameriz are in the same class

At Short Rollins and Ramirez are as good

Thats two, and two that are as good or better where Utley is far and away the best

[weekapaugjz]

wright and reyes for me. howard is a monster at the plate and utley is a great player, but i gotta go with the mets. reyes is a lighting rod for the rest of the team and wright is always solid. plus, i hate the phillies.

[Snacks]

I will take the entire Brewers infield over every other team all together.

Fielder (very close to becoming similar to Howard)
Weeks (has all the tools you want, some power, speed)
JJ Hardy (good glove, great bat)
Braun (this years rookie of the year, possible mvp, and if he gets enough at bats he will win the batting title. Hes only a rookie and already the 3rd best 3rd baseman in all of baeball behind only ARod and Cabrera)

Oh BTW they are all 24 and under.

2nd best infield would be Philly. Howard, Rollins, Utley. The only reason they arent #1 is they havent had a 3B in years.

Close 2nd would be Florida. Ramirez, Uggla and Cabrera with a decent 1b. All very young as well.

The NL east has a great young division. Wright and Reyes are good but you cant talk just about the right side of the infield or the left. You need to talk about the whole infield and the mets are in trouble. No 2b and Delgado is getting old fast (well he is and has been old)

People talk about the mets being a young team. They arent. Starting the season they had old players at ever position except ss and 3rd and Maine. (Beltrans not old but hes not young either.

Glivine
Pedro
Delgado
Valentin
Alou
Green
Wagner
El duque
lo duca

This is a very old team.

Sorry I side tracked this thread.

[epo]

I'm not even sure he's in the top 3 in the N.L. I'd put Reyes and Furcal ahead of him and maybe Tulowitzki.

Having seen all three in person this year, it's not even close. Tulowitzki kills them all with his arm.

[epo]

If all things are even (i.e. contracts) I take Utley/Howard. Not that Wright & Reyes aren't phenomenal, but the advantage is Utley at 2B. A good second baseman is impossible to find these days....and well Utley is the best.

[Kevin]

The only person even close is Roberts.... thats one

At third A-Rod and Cabrera are better

Chipper, Zimmerman, Atkins and Rameriz are in the same class

At Short Rollins and Ramirez are as good

Thats two, and two that are as good or better where Utley is far and away the best

Are ya sure?? Have you seen what Cano does?? He hit 335 or something last year, He has power, great glove and great arm.. And if he learns the zone better, he could be the best 2b in the leauge..

[Dash77]

I'll take Reyes and Wright 100 times out of 100.

I have to agree, theres no player who is more exciting to watch that Reyes. and Wright are just great for the Ny area as far as marketing goes right now...

[Doogie]

mainly because of the most exciting player in the game, Jose Reyes.

Blowhard, that is the phrase I have been saying for the last two years. And I will have to go with the Mets on this one. That left side is FAR more important than that right side. But the age thing means that Reyes-Wright will be around a lot longer (godwilling.) And seeing Reyes explode the way he is offensively is like when Jeter, Nomar and A-Rod all came up. Except Reyes has a lil of each of them all rolled into one, with a smattering of Rey Ordonez defense skills and agility.

Wright is just a world class act. The Mets will have to pay A-rod numbers for this guy a few years down the road. And he is worth every penny. That guy gets hot right when ya need him to, in July and August and he is a dynamo, albeit right now, defensively. The kid is very mature and grounded and is definitely one of the club captains right now. Now imagine a scenario where the Mets had Reyes, Wright and then Howard. I shiver in glee at such a prospect.

[ChrisTheCop]

I have to agree, theres no player who is more exciting in bed than Reyes. ...
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/WIZ/5018~Marilyn-Monroe-in-Bed-Posters.jpg

[Earlshog]

Are ya sure?? Have you seen what Cano does?? He hit 335 or something last year, He has power, great glove and great arm.. And if he learns the zone better, he could be the best 2b in the leauge..


Yes I see what Cano does. He is on fire right now. However at this point he is still not at Utleys level.

[EddieMoscone]

I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed, but david wright is on pace for a 30-30 season right now...

[The Blowhard]

You have to be objective here, and if you Philly guys pick Rollins over Reyes, you're nuts. I would take Reyes on the Yankees anyday: he's just getting better and better.
And just for the record, Bobby Murcer is better than Greg Luzinski.

[Earlshog]

You have to be objective here, and if you Philly guys pick Rollins over Reyes, you're nuts. I would take Reyes on the Yankees anyday: he's just getting better and better.
And just for the record, Bobby Murcer is better than Greg Luzinski.


haha... now thats the debate I know you wanted to have.... Claudel Washington or Von Hayes.... Bobby Meachem Vs Steve Jeltz....

[BoondockSaint]

Tom Seaver > Steve Carlton.

[Earlshog]

Tom Seaver > Steve Carlton.

Lefty did have more wins and strikeouts.....

[BoondockSaint]

Lefty did have more wins and strikeouts.....


Played 4 more years.

[Earlshog]

those last four years with Cleveland, SF, Minnesota weren't much to speak of...

[K.C.]

You have to be objective here, and if you Philly guys pick Rollins over Reyes, you're nuts. I would take Reyes on the Yankees anyday: he's just getting better and better.
And just for the record, Bobby Murcer is better than Greg Luzinski.

First off, Hanley Ramirez is better than both of them.

But as for Reyes vs. Rollins, they both have speed (Reyes has a bit more), and they both play impeccable defense.

The difference, though, is that Reyes doesn't give you anywhere close to the power that Rollins does. 21 HRs and 69 RBI from the leadoff spot. 27 Doubles and 15 Triples (bests Reyes in both). The Phillies could bat Rollins in the #1 hole, the 3 hole, the 5 hole, or the 7 hole and he could contribute adequately doing the things necessary to bat in each spot.

Not that Reyes won't EVENTUALLY be better...he was projected as a 20-30 HR guy when he reaches his prime years...but call me when he actually develops the power stroke to make him the total package.

Until then, I'll take Rollins who is AS, if not more, exciting a player.



By the way, for the Mets fans in this thread, keep a look out for the projected Phillie 2009 OF of Michael Bourn in LF, Greg Golson in CF, and Shane Victorino in RF...you'll never see a ball reach the gaps again.

[cougarjake13]

The only person even close is Roberts.... thats one

At third A-Rod and Cabrera are better

Chipper, Zimmerman, Atkins and Rameriz are in the same class

At Short Rollins and Ramirez are as good

Thats two, and two that are as good or better where Utley is far and away the best


well i thought about that after i posted

basically at first and third you can find comparable players to howard and wright

so its basically jose reyes vs chase utley

and i say you gotta go with reyes over chase just for his baserunning ability, ability to get on base and wreek havoc

[cougarjake13]

I will take the entire Brewers infield over every other team all together.

Fielder (very close to becoming similar to Howard)
Weeks (has all the tools you want, some power, speed)
JJ Hardy (good glove, great bat)
Braun (this years rookie of the year, possible mvp, and if he gets enough at bats he will win the batting title. Hes only a rookie and already the 3rd best 3rd baseman in all of baeball behind only ARod and Cabrera)

Oh BTW they are all 24 and under.

2nd best infield would be Philly. Howard, Rollins, Utley. The only reason they arent #1 is they havent had a 3B in years.

Close 2nd would be Florida. Ramirez, Uggla and Cabrera with a decent 1b. All very young as well.

Sorry I side tracked this thread.


no worries

the brewers do have the best young and upcoming infield but this was just the mets vs phillies thing

[Kevin]

Yes I see what Cano does. He is on fire right now. However at this point he is still not at Utleys level.

Not at his level?? The only thing utley has more than him is hrs.. And thats because Robby plays in a awful hr park for righties, and Chase plays in a bandbox.. You switch parks, and robbys has just as many hrs if not more..

Edit Utley 331 17 82.. Cano 310 13 69.. when you see that Robby started at 230 for 2 months, and Chase is at the top of the order, and Robby Bottom.. You could make a case, esp with the parks, that Robby is having just as good a year, if not better.. also Robby turns 25 in oct, and Chase turns 29..

[cougarjake13]

Not at his level?? The only thing utley has more than him is hrs.. And thats because Robby plays in a awful hr park for righties, and Chase plays in a bandbox.. You switch parks, and robbys has just as many hrs if not more..

i'd take robbie over utley any day of the week

[Kevin]

Back to the original debate.. I only brought up Robby because the dude said only Roberts is even close, and thats assinine... Its Reyes and Wright by far.. Both much younger.. And Jose, if he isn't already.. will be top 5 best players in the game.. And Wright could also be the same.. I like Ryan, but he is much older..

My order

Reyes
Howard (for now)
Wright
Utley..

[Earlshog]

Not at his level?? The only thing utley has more than him is hrs.. And thats because Robby plays in a awful hr park for righties, and Chase plays in a bandbox.. You switch parks, and robbys has just as many hrs if not more..

Edit Utley 331 17 82.. Cano 310 13 69.. when you see that Robby started at 230 for 2 months, and Chase is at the top of the order, and Robby Bottom.. You could make a case, esp with the parks, that Robby is having just as good a year, if not better.. also Robby turns 25 in oct, and Chase turns 29..

thats crazy talk... Cano has 60 more at bats. So Utley get penalized cause Cano got off to a bad start? What does age have to do with anything? We are talking about whos the better player now. Utley hands down.

[weekapaugjz]

thats crazy talk... So Utley get penalized cause Cano got off to a bad start? What does age have to do with anything? We are talking about whos the better player now. Utley hands down.

the original question is who would have rather build your team around. so, yes, age does have a lot to do with it.

[Earlshog]

the original question is who would have rather build your team around. so, yes, age does have a lot to do with it.

for the original argument yes.. Howard and Utley vs Wright and Reyes

age has nothing to do with the comparing the Cano to Utley right now.

[weekapaugjz]

for the original argument yes.. Howard and Utley vs Wright and Reyes

age has nothing to do with the comparing the Cano to Utley right now.

gotcha. i was reading your and kevins posts as if it was the same type of scenario about what player you would rather build around, not who is better right now.

[K.C.]

Not at his level?? The only thing utley has more than him is hrs.. And thats because Robby plays in a awful hr park for righties, and Chase plays in a bandbox.. You switch parks, and robbys has just as many hrs if not more..

Edit Utley 331 17 82.. Cano 310 13 69.. when you see that Robby started at 230 for 2 months, and Chase is at the top of the order, and Robby Bottom.. You could make a case, esp with the parks, that Robby is having just as good a year, if not better.. also Robby turns 25 in oct, and Chase turns 29..

This is one of the more silly things I've read

Utley has Cano in:

Runs scored (79 to 61)
Doubles (41 to 34)
Home Runs (17 to 13)
RBI (82 to 69)
Walks (40 to 28)
Stolen Bases (7 to 3)
On-Base Percentage (.414 to .356)
Batting Average (.335 to .309)
Slugging Percentage (.581 to .496)
Total Bases (232 to 226)
Average with Runners in scoring position (.306 to .259)
Average with Runners in scoring position and two outs (.364 to .207)
Average with runners on base (.350 to .294)
Average with the Bases Loaded (.394 to .167)
Late Inning Pressure batting average (.320 to .213)

And Utley hasn't played for 2 and a half weeks, which would conceivably boost his lead even further in many of these categories.

Simply put, Utley is hands down the best 2B in baseball...Mets fans hate him and they'll even tell you that.

And Cano's clutch numbers are HORRENDOUS, while Utley's are near the top in baseball most situations.

And the numbers STILL don't do justice how much better Utley is...the intangibles this guy brings to the table are unmeasurable.

[Snacks]

Not at his level?? The only thing utley has more than him is hrs.. And thats because Robby plays in a awful hr park for righties, and Chase plays in a bandbox.. You switch parks, and robbys has just as many hrs if not more..

Edit Utley 331 17 82.. Cano 310 13 69.. when you see that Robby started at 230 for 2 months, and Chase is at the top of the order, and Robby Bottom.. You could make a case, esp with the parks, that Robby is having just as good a year, if not better.. also Robby turns 25 in oct, and Chase turns 29..

Not even close and Utley has missed almost a month of baseball. He had MVP #'s before getting hurt. Utlry is by far the best 2b in baseball. Cano isnt even a power hitter. He is a 15 hr a year guy. He had 15 hr his first 2 full seasons and he will end up with 15 or so this year. Your funny thinking he would have more then Utley.

BTW Cano bats lefty and is in one of the best lefty hitter ball parks in all of baseball. Yankee stadium is built for lefties. Cano fields righty but bats lefty. What kind of a Yankee fan are you? You want to have an argument about how great a player is and how he is at a disadvantage, yet you didnt know he bats lefty? Come on!

Why cant Yankee fans ever say that someone is a better player then a yankee? This is why so many people dislike yankee fans. They always have to throw a yankee into the mix when these types of discussions some up. Im surprised Jeter isnt mentioned as the best SS. Thank god he wasnt because hes the 3rd best SS in NY.
1) ARod (its a shame he still doenst play SS, but he will always be a ss at heart!)
2) Reyes
3) Jeter


This is one of the more silly things I've read

Utley has Cano in:

Runs scored (79 to 61)
Doubles (41 to 34)
Home Runs (17 to 13)
RBI (82 to 69)
Walks (40 to 28)
Stolen Bases (7 to 3)
On-Base Percentage (.414 to .356)
Batting Average (.335 to .309)
Slugging Percentage (.581 to .496)
Total Bases (232 to 226)
Average with Runners in scoring position (.306 to .259)
Average with Runners in scoring position and two outs (.364 to .207)
Average with runners on base (.350 to .294)
Average with the Bases Loaded (.394 to .167)
Late Inning Pressure batting average (.320 to .213)

And Utley hasn't played for 2 and a half weeks, which would conceivably boost his lead even further in many of these categories.

Simply put, Utley is hands down the best 2B in baseball...Mets fans hate him and they'll even tell you that.

And Cano's clutch numbers are HORRENDOUS, while Utley's are near the top in baseball most situations.

And the numbers STILL don't do justice how much better Utley is...the intangibles this guy brings to the table are unmeasurable.

thanks for breaking it down so people can see that far and away Utley kills Cano.

Lets even look at last year when Cano had a great year and he was in a much better line up the Utley was last year.

AVG Cano .342 - Utley .308
HR Cano 15 - Utley 32
RBI's Cano 78 - Utley 102
RUNS Cano 62 - Utley 131
SB Cano 5 - Utley 15

Yeah, I would totally take Cano, lol please. These types of yankee fans are the reason I hate being a yankee fan. As a Yankee fan I would take Utley any day over Cano.

[rooter]

Tom Seaver > Steve Carlton.

Die in a fire.

[K.C.]

Die in a fire.

My sentiments exactly...nobody insults God that way...such blasphemy should be punished severely.

[cougarjake13]

Year W L _ G GS CG_SHO GF SV IP H __R _ER HR BB SO ERA
Seaver 311 205 656 647 231 61 6 1 4782.7 3971 1674 1521 380 1390 3640 2.86
Carlton 329 244 741 709 254 55 13 2 5217.3 4672 2130 1864 414 1833 4136 3.22


seaver pitched 20 years from 67-86 and carlton 24 years from 65-88, so in four less years carlton only had 18 more wins, had 6 less shutouts, but does have the almost 500 more strikeouts


here's the 162 game avg's for both

______W L G GS CG SHO IP___H___R___ER_HR BB__SO___ERA
seaver 16 10 34 33 12 3 249.3 207 87 79 19 72 189 2.86
carlton 15 11 34 33 11 2 244.7 219 99 87 19 85 193 3.22

seaver beats carlton in every category except for strikeouts which he only wins by four


i have to say that seaver wins this matchup

[bigtim666]

i think the Phillies have ended the discussion 7 games back but they have the better infield

[tbagnu]

well i'll tell you what, to hang in there with the "great" mets this long with the amount and severity of injuries they had is an accomplishment enough! let's see what happens as the season ends!!..btw, no comparison, phillies right side in a landslide!!..later

[weekapaugjz]

nevermind, trying to put up some stats, but everything comes out misaligned.

reyes and wright all the way.

[K.C.]

i think the Phillies have ended the discussion 7 games back but they have the better infield

Yeah...that wouldn't have anything to do with pretty much the entire Double A Reading Phillies pitching staff in the rotation.

[cougarjake13]

nevermind, trying to put up some stats, but everything comes out misaligned.

reyes and wright all the way.

i know i hate that shit, its like this board doesnt recognize the spaces

i just use periods or the underscore in betw the stats to make them line up

[cougarjake13]

Yeah...that wouldn't have anything to do with pretty much the entire Double A Reading Phillies pitching staff in the rotation.

pretty much every team in every league has injuries at some point

its the depth behind the starters that separates the good teams from the also rans

[K.C.]

pretty much every team in every league has injuries at some point

its the depth behind the starters that separates the good teams from the also rans

Yeah, talk to me about depth when the Mets are missing Tom Glavine, Orlando Hernandez, and Oliver Perez from their rotation at the same time and still rolling off victories.

[Earlshog]

pretty much every team in every league has injuries at some point

its the depth behind the starters that separates the good teams from the also rans


Injuries yeah... Losing the entire starting rotation and bullpen is a differnt story..

I want to hear guy guyersons take on this... Ricky Jordan and Steve Jeltz or Dave Magadan and Kevin Elster

[AJDELAWARE]

Id trade them all away just to extend Pat Burrells contract another 10 years and 1 billion dollars.


Pat the Bat has been looking strong lately though.

The Utley/Howard/Rollins combo is so damn good together. I would love to see them get a consistent 3rd basemen to round it out. I wouldnt be surprised if they float Iguchi over to 3rd once Utley is activated.

[PD]

Yeah, talk to me about depth when the Mets are missing Tom Glavine, Orlando Hernandez, and Oliver Perez from their rotation at the same time and still rolling off victories.


ummm, missing Pedro for quite a while now there......

Injuries are part of the deal - as is ability / financial ability to find replacements.

at the beginning of the year I thought Phillies would be battling till the end, but they didn't have the depth.
(I did think they would choke, since they are one of the franchises to do it more often than Mets - see Wild thing and Gene Mauch)

[K.C.]

ummm, missing Pedro for quite a while now there......

Injuries are part of the deal - as is ability / financial ability to find replacements.

at the beginning of the year I thought Phillies would be battling till the end, but they didn't have the depth.
(I did think they would choke, since they are one of the franchises to do it more often than Mets - see Wild thing and Gene Mauch)

Did any GOOD pitchers move at the trade deadline???? I don't think it's a Phillies-centric problem...it's the changing culture of MLB. Teams don't trade quality starters, unless there's very extenuating circumstances.

As for Pedro, it's a little different situation. If Cole Hamels was hurt last season and had very little chance of pitching AT ALL this season, then I wouldn't cite it as an excuse...the team has the responsibility knowing what they know.

But when you lose arguably your entire starting rotation to injury...that's kind of beyond most team's control.

[cougarjake13]

Yeah, talk to me about depth when the Mets are missing Tom Glavine, Orlando Hernandez, and Oliver Perez from their rotation at the same time and still rolling off victories.

look at the mets last year going to the playoffs

we lost el duque and pedro and still somehow beat a better dodgers pitching staff

and we did lose el duque for a stretch and as you know pedro been out all year

[Earlshog]

look at the mets last year going to the playoffs

we lost el duque and pedro and still somehow beat a better dodgers pitching staff

and we did lose el duque for a stretch and as you know pedro been out all year


my high-school team had a better line up then the Dodgers last year...

The Mets knew Pedro was going to be out this off season and were able to plan accordingly

You can't compare losing one starter for a few starts to the Phillies losing there entire rotation and top two relievers...

[K.C.]

The Mets knew Pedro was going to be out this off season and were able to plan accordingly



That's the point I was making...it's one thing to know a guy is pretty much going to be out for the year before the season starts (and actually, they knew this last season).

It's another thing to lose guys by the bundle in Late August in the midst of the playoff push.

[PD]

my high-school team had a better line up then the Dodgers last year...
.
and yet they got into the playoffs, and the Phils went home......

this is the major leagues - no excuses.

[cougarjake13]

That's the point I was making...it's one thing to know a guy is pretty much going to be out for the year before the season starts (and actually, they knew this last season).

It's another thing to lose guys by the bundle in Late August in the midst of the playoff push.


like the mets did last year.... we lost pedro and el duque

However, during his May 26 start against the Florida Marlins, Martinez was instructed by the umpires to change his undershirt. He slipped in the corridor, injuring his hip, and his promising season curdled. Beginning on June 6, Martinez went 4-7 with a 7.10 ERA in a series of spotty starts interrupted twice by stays on the disabled list. A right calf injury plagued him for the last two months of the season. After an unsatisfactory late season comeback, the Mets announced on September 27 that an MRI exam revealed a torn muscle in Martinez's left calf. Three days later, the team announced that Martinez also had a torn rotator cuff

we only had 2 starter go 30 games or more
glavine and traschel

pedro had 23, el duque had 20 for us, maine only 16, and then a bunch of guys betw 5-10

[The Blowhard]

If I had to pick a pitcher for a game 7, it would be Seaver in his prime over Carlton in his prime. I saw them both pitch many times, and Seaver gets the edge, stats be damned.
And Ron Bennington IS John Kruk!

[AJDELAWARE]

Ryan Howard,
you
are
the
man.

[PD]

If I had to pick a pitcher for a game 7, it would be Seaver in his prime over Carlton in his prime. I saw them both pitch many times, and Seaver gets the edge, stats be damned.
And Ron Bennington IS John Kruk!

agreed on both counts - and just remember, Carlton once struck out 19 Mets and they beat him.

On to today.
I have to admit that so far this series the Phillies are whooping the Mets.

A lot of it is the Met ineptitude offensively, but the Phils are taking advantage.

[ralphbxny]

If I had to pick a pitcher for a game 7, it would be Seaver in his prime over Carlton in his prime. I saw them both pitch many times, and Seaver gets the edge, stats be damned.
And Ron Bennington IS John Kruk!

He has one testicle?

[The Blowhard]

He has one testicle?


Yep. It's the size of a bowling ball. And since a lot of Philly fans are posting in this thread, let me say this: "DIE, BOBBY CLARKE, DIE"!
Okay, I feel better now.

[PigShitIrish]

http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/gallery/000054/000305837.jpg

One of the greatest players to ever come out of Flin Flon.