I like that athletes use steroids

[Snoogans]

I'm serious. It's been such a fuckin issue lately, that I've realized I am happy for it. I watch sports to see guys do things that I tried and was never quite able to do. To watch them be what seemed superhuman. I think, since they know the risks, if they wanna take something that actually makes them super human, that's even better. I wanna be entertained. I don't give a shit about records, I wanna be entertained and see my teams win.
I even realized that, based on what I could do in high school, that I honestly believe if I had taken steroids, I would have gotten strong and good enough to pitch in the major leagues.
And if someone told me for sure that was true, I would have taken them in a heart beat.

So go barry Bonds. Go Merriman. I might even have to become a cycling fan with what is goin on now. I wanna see golfers hit balls 450 yards and put up 49's like I do on Tiger Woods golf.
How awesome would it be to watch a QB stand there for 5 seconds then connect by throwing a pass 85 yards in the air. Or have hail maries possible from the 30 yard line.

[prothunderball]

I've come to the conclusion that I really don't care too much if they use steroids or not, I'd just like it be all or nothing, either every one in the league is juiced up or nobody is... seems like the fairest way to go for me.

But to play devils advocate to the original post, what about the health aspects or taking steroids? While, you may not care about the effects they have on the sport, what about the the fact that they can really fuck up the health of people that take them, especially kids, and lets face it, if they were completely legal in sports then high school kids will be doing them, and they aren't going to be as smart about taking them as the pro athletes will be.

[Snoogans]

its parents job to make sure their kids know what not to do. And adults know the risks, if they are willing to do that to their body, what the fuck do i care

[TheMojoPin]

Sports themselves are inherrently dangerous on a variety of levels. Football players are all but ensuring themselves the rest of their lives will be lived in varying degrees of pain and even handicap. Same with boxers, and to a lesser degree, "lifetime" baseball, soccer, hockey and basketball players. NOW we're suddenly worried about athletes' health after they retire? Please, spare me the violins. Too little too late.

And people who throw up the unfair advantage issue...isn't unfair that the Colts have someone like Manning as their quarterback? Or that the Bulls had Jordan? Or that the Cardinals have Pujols? Or that the Yankees have most of their starting lineup over the last 75 years? There are always going to be players that are head and shoulders above the pack...some almost freakishly so, even if everyone was "clean." But the presence of steroids gets people griping like the playing field would be level if they were purged.

Bosh. FLIMSHAW.

[HBox]

That's fine as long as you admit you are no longer interested in sports and are instead interested in a freak show.

[TheMojoPin]

That's fine as long as you admit you are no longer interested in sports and are instead interested in a freak show.

They aren't already?

[HBox]

They aren't already?

If they aren't taking steroids or other performance enhancing drugs, no. They are doing something that is, while not acheivable by 99% of people, is still within the upper levels of human achievement. Not a bunch of Barry Bonds balloon heads launching 500 foot HRs on a daily basis. There's a difference between what hard work and talent can give you and what drugs can give you, and what all of that together can give you.

[Fallon]

Breaking News: Snoogans supports drug use.

[HBox]

Breaking News: Snoogans favorite athlete:


http://images.art.com/images/-/The-Incredible-Hulk-Magnet-C11747775.jpeg

[Kevin]

Breaking News: Snoogans supports drug use.

I am just as flabbergastingly shocked as you are!

[TheMojoPin]

If they aren't taking steroids or other performance enhancing drugs, no. They are doing something that is, while not acheivable by 99% of people, is still within the upper levels of human achievement. Not a bunch of Barry Bonds balloon heads launching 500 foot HRs on a daily basis. There's a difference between what hard work and talent can give you and what drugs can give you, and what all of that together can give you.

Bonds doesn't hit his that far. I know it's hyperbole, but you've got "normal" guys that can hit it further or more in a season. "Normal" guys that will surpass his records. "Normal" guys that overall have much better career numbers. What are these guys doing that's so superhuman that nobody else can do?

[Fallon]

I am just as flabbergastingly shocked as you are!

Are ya?

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/mba/lowres/mban1621l.jpg

[Bama]

I wish I could get righteously indignant about steroids but I can't. Don't care. Sorry.

I'll try harder.

[TheMojoPin]

I wish I could get righteously indignant about steroids but I can't. Don't care. Sorry.

I'll try harder.

Dude's got the right idea. In a perfect world, I wish they never made it into pro sports...in the real world, it's not the nazi-like travesty so many people want to think it is.

[HBox]

Bonds doesn't hit his that far. I know it's hyperbole, but you've got "normal" guys that can hit it further or more in a season. "Normal" guys that will surpass his records. "Normal" guys that overall have much better career numbers. What are these guys doing that's so superhuman that nobody else can do?

It's just boils down to this: they are doing something that they otherwise couldn't do because of drugs. I know that's not 100% true. Sometime being too muscled up can hurt a player. A-Rod put on a lot of muscle before last season and it hurt him. He lost a lot of the weight before this year and you see what's happened.

I just can't get involved in a sport where to a large degree the outcome is decided by who had what doctor and what he told the player to shoot in his ass.

[Kevin]

Are ya?

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/mba/lowres/mban1621l.jpg

http://content.ytmnd.com/content/1/0/e/10ef00c8a7ef6153f17fa854b032d8c9.jpg

[TheMojoPin]

It's just boils down to this: they are doing something that they otherwise couldn't do because of drugs. I know that's not 100% true. Sometime being too muscled up can hurt a player. A-Rod put on a lot of muscle before last season and it hurt him. He lost a lot of the weight before this year and you see what's happened.

I just can't get involved in a sport where to a large degree the outcome is decided by who had what doctor and what he told the player to shoot in his ass.

But isn't that basically what we already have with all the medical specialists and procedures? I know it's not exactly the same, but the evolution of the games has made everything kind of "fuzzy" and subjective.

[HBox]

I wish I could get righteously indignant about steroids but I can't. Don't care. Sorry.

I'll try harder.

I'm not righteously indignant. I just wouldn't be able to get invested in a league where they just say anything goes and everyone is roiding up. They are never going to be completely eliminated but as long as a league makes a serious effort to stop it I'm fine.

[HBox]

But isn't that basically what we already have with all the medical specialists and procedures? I know it's not exactly the same, but the evolution of the games has made everything kind of "fuzzy" and subjective.

We have to accept that as we learn more about the body and how it works and how to heal it that it will offer more advantages to players as time goes on. Players will learn how to maintain their bodies better through nutrition and exercise and that will continue to improve and that will also continue to manifest itself.

Where I draw the line is stuff that is harmful. If you say something that is harmful long term is OK then the playing field has become imbalanced. Some players won't care adn will do it. Others won't because they don't want to risk it and they will become disadvantaged. And then all of a sudden a player's success has become significantly impacted not by how much work they've done but by a simple choice to take a drug or not.

That's just not something I'd want to knowingly support.

[Bama]

I stopped worrying about the purity of baseball a long time ago.

With nail files, pine tar, cork and all the other stuff they've been using for 100 years what's another thing?

I have the utmost faith in the ability of baseball players to find new ways to cheat. I'm sure they'll think of something even worse then steroids in our lifetime.

I'm still more pissed off about the DH then I am with all that other stuff.

[TheMojoPin]

I stopped worrying about the purity of baseball a long time ago.

With nail files, pine tar, cork and all the other stuff they've been using for 100 years what's another thing?

I have the utmost faith in the ability of baseball players to find new ways to cheat. I'm sure they'll think of something even worse then steroids in our lifetime.

I'm still more pissed off about the DH then I am with all that other stuff.

I love you.

[Bulldogcakes]

Where I draw the line is stuff that is harmful. If you say something that is harmful long term is OK then the playing field has become imbalanced. Some players won't care adn will do it. Others won't because they don't want to risk it and they will become disadvantaged. And then all of a sudden a player's success has become significantly impacted not by how much work they've done but by a simple choice to take a drug or not.

That's just not something I'd want to knowingly support.

Thank you. Nicely put.

And you guys who have no problem with steroids should familiarize yourself with something you seem to have no concept of "a level playing field". I know some of you guys are big WWE fans, but sports is held to a higher standard than entertainment. If not, you end up with the Harlem Globetrotters. For those of you who dont care about records, you're getting your wish. They're becoming increasingly meaningless.

If nothing else, steroids have clearly helped the hitters more than the pitchers, since most of you claim that both are/were using (likely to be true) and from 1995-2005 just about every team/individual hitting record was shattered, sometimes by multiple players and multiple teams. If both hitters and pitchers were using, it should have evened things out and therefore had no overall effect, right? It didn't work out that way. 4 ERA's are now considered to be very good, 15 years ago that would have been your 5th starter.

[Bulldogcakes]

Sports themselves are inherrently dangerous on a variety of levels. Football players are all but ensuring themselves the rest of their lives will be lived in varying degrees of pain and even handicap. Same with boxers, and to a lesser degree, "lifetime" baseball, soccer, hockey and basketball players. NOW we're suddenly worried about athletes' health after they retire? Please, spare me the violins. Too little too late.

Thats right! Since we no longer care about what happens to athletes, I SAY WE SEND IN THE LIONS AFTER THE LOSING TEAM!!! WINNER RUNS OFF THE FIELD, AND THE LOSER GETS FED TO THE LIONS!!! NOW THAT'S ENTERTAINMENT!!!!


But its not sports.

[TheMojoPin]

Thats right! Since we no longer care about what happens to athletes, I SAY WE SEND IN THE LIONS AFTER THE LOSING TEAM!!! WINNER RUNS OFF THE FIELD, AND THE LOSER GETS FED TO THE LIONS!!! NOW THAT'S ENTERTAINMENT!!!!


But its not sports.

Whoa, whoa, slow down the O'Reilly-copter there, spinmaster. I didn't say anything even remotely close to that and you know it. I was calling out almost anyone who says they're against steroids because of health issues down the line when those that use them finish their athletic careers. Pro atheltes by and large are setting themselves up to varying degrees of pain and injury and worse as their life goes on once they retire. I'm not saying a good thing, I'm just pointing out that's how it is. Steroids aren't some kind of new thing introduced that are leaving guys who wouldn't have medical issues due to their career once they retired suddenly hobbled and falling apart, so it's disingeneous presenting them as some kind of terrible evil when these guys have, for better or for worse, already made the decision to likely "mess up" their post-career health. It's a false comparison to present a roided up player after their career as if they contrast with the vast majority of "clean" players as if the latter group is perfectly fine and healthy. I know I'm spinning myself here and that HBox himself didn't say a lot of that specifically, so I'm just talking in general.

Again, nobody is forcing anyone to do anything here, with steroids or anything else. Like Bama said, baseball has been riddled with cheating since it was first played. I don't want people to get away with everything left and right, but we are going to see over and over again people sneaking stuff by or getting ahead kind of shadily, often only in hindsight. It's the nature of the game, and it's why going out of one's way to shun and scorn Bonds like he's maybe done something that's a "travesty" to a game that has countless forms cheating as part of its beloved history for over a hundred years rings so hollow with me.

[Bulldogcakes]

Again, nobody is forcing anyone to do anything here, with steroids or anything else. Like Bama said, baseball has been riddled with cheating since it was first played. I don't want people to get away with everything left and right, but we are going to see over and over again people sneaking stuff by or getting ahead kind of shadily, often only in hindsight. It's the nature of the game, and it's why going out of one's way to shun and scorn Bonds like he's maybe done something that's a "travesty" to a game that has countless forms cheating as part of its beloved history for over a hundred years rings so hollow with me.

And humanity has been riddled with stealing, murder and whatever other form of crime or mischief you can come up with since day 1. So we should just give up? I guess its "People still speed, so lets just get rid of all speed limits" so that somehow excuses this in your book. Just because an activity goes on doesn't mean responsible people in society don't do whatever they can to stop it. Actually, the fact that its going on is the very reason why it has to be dealt with. And spitballs, corked bats, scuffed balls, gambling, etc are all illegal in the game. If they are embraced by some dopes as part of some 'romanticized past' then who cares, they aren't embraced by Baseball and shouldn't be.

And for the last time, Bonds IS being singled out and absolutely should be. He decided to go after the most storied record (Career HR's) which was held by two of the greatest and most beloved figures in the sports history (Ruth/Arron). He brought all this scrutiny on himself, and should grow up and realize that when you become #1, you also have the biggest bullseye on your back. Lets not try to make him out to be "just another juicer", he's not.

[TheMojoPin]

And humanity has been riddled with stealing, murder and whatever other form of crime or mischief you can come up with since day 1. So we should just give up? I guess its "People still speed, so lets just get rid of all speed limits" so that somehow excuses this in your book.

OK, seriously, I'm stepping back now because almost every response of yours is infuriating me with this snide, spin everything I said into something I didn't, condescending BS. I can't get a straight response out of you without a complete perversion of what I actually posted, so I'm done with you on this. I've said what I think and I'm stepping out before it just devolves into a stupid sniping match.

[HBox]

Whoa, whoa, slow down the O'Reilly-copter there, spinmaster. I didn't say anything even remotely close to that and you know it. I was calling out almost anyone who says they're against steroids because of health issues down the line when those that use them finish their athletic careers. Pro atheltes by and large are setting themselves up to varying degrees of pain and injury and worse as their life goes on once they retire. I'm not saying a good thing, I'm just pointing out that's how it is. Steroids aren't some kind of new thing introduced that are leaving guys who wouldn't have medical issues due to their career once they retired suddenly hobbled and falling apart, so it's disingeneous presenting them as some kind of terrible evil when these guys have, for better or for worse, already made the decision to likely "mess up" their post-career health. It's a false comparison to present a roided up player after their career as if they contrast with the vast majority of "clean" players as if the latter group is perfectly fine and healthy. I know I'm spinning myself here and that HBox himself didn't say a lot of that specifically, so I'm just talking in general.

Again, nobody is forcing anyone to do anything here, with steroids or anything else. Like Bama said, baseball has been riddled with cheating since it was first played. I don't want people to get away with everything left and right, but we are going to see over and over again people sneaking stuff by or getting ahead kind of shadily, often only in hindsight. It's the nature of the game, and it's why going out of one's way to shun and scorn Bonds like he's maybe done something that's a "travesty" to a game that has countless forms cheating as part of its beloved history for over a hundred years rings so hollow with me.

Every job that requires physical labor will result in long term pain problems and even a decreased life expectancy, whether it be construction, carpentry or sports. As far as I'm concerned that's all the more reason to encourage healthier lifestyles and discourage taking even more risks with your long term health.

And let me add one thing: We already have an industry that for a long time had and for all I know still might have a laissez faire attitude towards performance enhancers and other drugs: Wrestling. We're not talking in hypotheticals here. We can already see what would happen. It's all fun and games until the guys get older and start dying young and fans feel dirty and turn away in droves.

[TheMojoPin]

Every job that requires physical labor will result in long term pain problems and even a decreased life expectancy, whether it be construction, carpentry or sports. As far as I'm concerned that's all the more reason to encourage healthier lifestyles and discourage taking even more risks with your long term health.

And let me add one thing: We already have an industry that for a long time had and for all I know still might have a laissez faire attitude towards performance enhancers and other drugs: Wrestling. We're not talking in hypotheticals here. We can already see what would happen. It's all fun and games until the guys get older and start dying young and fans feel dirty and turn away in droves.

Understood, but again, it's not a good direct comparison since what those guys are taking and the amounts and the duration is likely going to be much different and longer than most baseball players.

Yes, I think that baseball should do what it's always done and attempt to clean things up way after the fact...I'm just being realistic when I look at the "steroid era" as something that I think is actually part of the evolution of the game given how it's been played (and twisted) over the decades. That doesn't make it "OK," but it's not like we can just dismiss everything during that time or paint it all negative any more than we can with all the other forms of cheating over baseball's history. We also have to accept that new forms of this stuff are going to keep showing up...baseball reacts after the fact with EVERYTHING. That's not going to change. And that's why I don't dismiss the so-called "steroid era." It's part of baseball whether people want it to be or not.

[Snacks]

We have to accept that as we learn more about the body and how it works and how to heal it that it will offer more advantages to players as time goes on. Players will learn how to maintain their bodies better through nutrition and exercise and that will continue to improve and that will also continue to manifest itself.

Where I draw the line is stuff that is harmful. If you say something that is harmful long term is OK then the playing field has become imbalanced. Some players won't care adn will do it. Others won't because they don't want to risk it and they will become disadvantaged. And then all of a sudden a player's success has become significantly impacted not by how much work they've done but by a simple choice to take a drug or not.

That's just not something I'd want to knowingly support.

Well as we learn more about the body means shit. Its still an advantage that other players never had. Tommy John surgery has showed to make a pitcher have a better career. Their velocity and arm strength is better after surgery then before it was hurt. Maybe some players might decide to get the surgery to enhance their career???

You talk about steroids as they are so bad. The your not. My Uncle is a DR and we have talked about steroids for years and he has always said that they are no worse then any other drug. As long as they are taken properly and under supervision on someone who knows how to balance the cycles then it wouldnt be any worse then the shit we take now for any ailment. So your theory of players at risk is just utter bull shit. Players put themselves at isk when they play the game. In todays world, every player is trying to get better and take advantage of everything they can. Thats why most players have taken some sort of steroid or stimulant.

And humanity has been riddled with stealing, murder and whatever other form of crime or mischief you can come up with since day 1. So we should just give up? I guess its "People still speed, so lets just get rid of all speed limits" so that somehow excuses this in your book. Just because an activity goes on doesn't mean responsible people in society don't do whatever they can to stop it. Actually, the fact that its going on is the very reason why it has to be dealt with. And spitballs, corked bats, scuffed balls, gambling, etc are all illegal in the game. If they are embraced by some dopes as part of some 'romanticized past' then who cares, they aren't embraced by Baseball and shouldn't be.

And for the last time, Bonds IS being singled out and absolutely should be. He decided to go after the most storied record (Career HR's) which was held by two of the greatest and most beloved figures in the sports history (Ruth/Arron). He brought all this scrutiny on himself, and should grow up and realize that when you become #1, you also have the biggest bullseye on your back. Lets not try to make him out to be "just another juicer", he's not.


Murder ,stealing, and whatever also are crimes that harm others. How does steroids harm you? People know what they are doing let them take the risk it is their bodies. I hate how so many people worry about what others do to themselves or in their own lives when it doesnt directly hurt someone else in any way.

[Bulldogcakes]

Yes, I think that baseball should do what it's always done and attempt to clean things up way after the fact...I'm just being realistic when I look at the "steroid era" as something that I think is actually part of the evolution of the game given how it's been played (and twisted) over the decades. That doesn't make it "OK," but it's not like we can just dismiss everything during that time or paint it all negative any more than we can with all the other forms of cheating over baseball's history. We also have to accept that new forms of this stuff are going to keep showing up...baseball reacts after the fact with EVERYTHING. That's not going to change. And that's why I don't dismiss the so-called "steroid era." It's part of baseball whether people want it to be or not.

Mojo, how can you say that "baseball should clean it up" and then immediately follow with "Its an evolution of the game". You don't clean up evolutions of the game, you clean up cheating. Then you give lip service to cleaning it up, and end with 'its part of the game whether we like it or not'. Sounds like if you were baseball commissioner, you wouldn't be trying too hard to do anything about this.

And I'll leave it up to the doctors to decide what steroids are OK (Cortisone injections) and which aren't (anabolic steroids). The easiest way for the baseball public to decide is by which ones are legal and which aren't. As H-Box said already the line is generally drawn at what is harmful.

[Bulldogcakes]

OK, seriously, I'm stepping back now because almost every response of yours is infuriating me with this snide, spin everything I said into something I didn't, condescending BS. I can't get a straight response out of you without a complete perversion of what I actually posted, so I'm done with you on this. I've said what I think and I'm stepping out before it just devolves into a stupid sniping match.


You can chalk up everything I say to "spin" if you like, but I think thats a cop out. I'm just challenging your reasoning and consistency on the subject and I think thats what's upsetting you. And BTW don't read a tone into things I post that isn't intended. I didn't mean a word of what I posted to be any kind of personal attack, because I don't think you're a dope, I just think you're wrong on this one topic.

Also, lets remember the title of this thread and the first post by Snoogans. He LIKES steroids in baseball, thinks there is nothing wrong with it and nothing should be done about it. Then you guys (mojo/bama/snacks) post and agree with his premise. Then I call you out on it and you say "I said no such thing". If you disagree with the premise of this thread in part or whole then say so. Otherwise you just come across as you being argumentative.

[Bulldogcakes]

Murder ,stealing, and whatever also are crimes that harm others. How does steroids harm you? People know what they are doing let them take the risk it is their bodies. I hate how so many people worry about what others do to themselves or in their own lives when it doesnt directly hurt someone else in any way.

You missed the point. I was responding to Mojo's "cheating has been in the game forever" comment, so I was saying so have all sorts of bad behavior. That doesn't mean you don't try to do something about it.

There are lots of laws that protect people from themselves, drug laws (which include steroids) are an example. Are you for abolishing all drug laws by your "doesn't harm anyone else" standard? Because if you believe that, I'll guess you didn't live in Washington Heights or on Ave A in the late 80's-early 90's.

[TheMojoPin]

Mojo, how can you say that "baseball should clean it up" and then immediately follow with "Its an evolution of the game". You don't clean up evolutions of the game, you clean up cheating. Then you give lip service to cleaning it up, and end with 'its part of the game whether we like it or not'. Sounds like if you were baseball commissioner, you wouldn't be trying too hard to do anything about this.

It's the evolution in the game in exactly the context I spelled out...baseball cleans up everything after the fact. That's never going to change. So the people getting all bent out of shape about the "steroid era" and wanting records stricken or asterisks tossed on everything are wasting their time. Every major ruling has always only come once everything has become too big to ignore and THEN baseball gets off its ass. Acting like MLB is going to change and start being more pro-active with ANY cheating now or in the future if living in complete denial of the reality of MLB since it existed. I've never said "oh, let people do whatever they want" or "let everyone get injured and fuck 'em" or whatever other crap you want to claim I said...I'm simply recognizing how baseball works on these issues and why I don't get worked up into a self-righteous frenzy over the "steroid era." That's it. But please, turn that into something completely different. Yes, baseball SHOULD be more pro-active with cheating...but it's not and never has been. Why are we suddenly holding the game to a standard it has never lived up to for its entire existence? This stuff chould be cracked down on, but we have to face reality, for better or for worse, and realize that it's always going to happen very lazily and way after the fact when a ton of people have already gotten away clean with whatever they're cracking down on. If we try and seperate or excise or ignore or whatever the "steroid era," we basically have to do that with all the other "cheating eras," if not the entire game itself.

[FUNKMAN]

one thing to take into consideration is 'being in shape is their job'. think about it, they have the best facilities, personal trainers, money to have the healthiest meals prepared for them. if you yourself worked out up to 5 times a week wouldn't you feel you would be "considerably" bigger and stronger?

of course some guys choose not to bulk up with muscle but there is no doubt that you can increase in considerable size without steroids and just by being in the gym 5 times a week and being on a legal supplement and dieting on the best foods nutritionally...

[Snoogans]

if they cant do steroids, just do the next best thing, what LT used to enhance his career....crack

[Bulldogcakes]

It's the evolution in the game in exactly the context I spelled out...baseball cleans up everything after the fact. That's never going to change. So the people getting all bent out of shape about the "steroid era" and wanting records stricken or asterisks tossed on everything are wasting their time. Every major ruling has always only come once everything has become too big to ignore and THEN baseball gets off its ass.
OK, now I get your evolution comment. I thought you meant it as being a "natural progession" of baseball and science joining forces.

We're obviously arguing two different things. I'm not one of "those people" who want to put an asterisk next to anything. I've already stated (either here or elsewhere) that I chalk up this era as being an aberration similar to the way we look at the 'Dead Ball Era' records today.

But Bonds is and should be remembered as a cheater, one who's accomplishments are tainted by scandal. And we agree that baseball should do whatever it can to preserve the integrity of the sport (however late) in the eyes of the public. Steroid users may always be one step ahead of the tests, but as long as baseball is doing what it can (like Football) then I'm satisfied.

[Snacks]

OK, now I get your evolution comment. I thought you meant it as being a "natural progession" of baseball and science joining forces.

We're obviously arguing two different things. I'm not one of "those people" who want to put an asterisk next to anything. I've already stated (either here or elsewhere) that I chalk up this era as being an aberration similar to the way we look at the 'Dead Ball Era' records today.

But Bonds is and should be remembered as a cheater, one who's accomplishments are tainted by scandal. And we agree that baseball should do whatever it can to preserve the integrity of the sport (however late) in the eyes of the public. Steroid users may always be one step ahead of the tests, but as long as baseball is doing what it can (like Football) then I'm satisfied.

If Bonds did do steroids you can say whatever you want but its not cheating. If there is no rule in place against steroids then its not cheating. It was illegal by govt standards then thats for the law to deal with the same way if a player smokes weed, does coke etc. AS for MLB HE NEVER CHEATED THE RULES OF THE GAME. Period, Exclamation Point and anything else!!!