Barry* Bonds* Home* Run* Thread*

[led37zep]

Like him or not he's 1 home run away from tying the record.

Anybody else watching the game right now?

[Bossanova]

I have Mets on 1 and the Bonds watch on the other. I really hope he gets it this weekend at home, without Selig. Who wants him there anyway

[Da Fish]

:unsure: no HR wait until we are gone.

[led37zep]

I'd love him to get it against the Marlins. Dodgers would have been better (for obvious reasons) but I'll take what I can get.

F-Selig!

[Da Fish]

I'd love him to get it against the Marlins. Dodgers would have been better (for obvious reasons) but I'll take what I can get.

F-Selig!

Don't be hating.

[Bossanova]

Dontrell should groove one

[led37zep]

Wow...he showed he isn't afraid to go directly at Barry. Have to respect that!

[Bossanova]

I will give hime his. That was a good at bat for Willis

[Da Fish]

K Impressive at bat for D-Train

[Bossanova]

You ruined it for me. I read your post 3 seconds before he struck out. Damn Directv delay.

[led37zep]

You ruined it for me. I read your post 3 seconds before he struck out. Damn Directv delay.

I think you should only refresh AFTER every at bat. My old apt was like that. The guy upstairs would get the signal a full 3-5 seconds before I would. Fucking ruined games for me.

[Da Fish]

You ruined it for me. I read your post 3 seconds before he struck out. Damn Directv delay.

Sorry dude. I'm in Delay because I have it on DVR and I started watching late. I thought I would be the one seeing things late.

[Da Fish]

BS, I don't care about Arod. ESPN:furious:

Sorry double post.....grrrr

[Bossanova]

Sorry dude. I'm in Delay because I have it on DVR and I started watching late. I thought I would be the one seeing things late.

No worries, just breakin balls

[led37zep]

Here we go!

[Da Fish]

is it safe to post yet:laugh:

[Bossanova]

Bastard. Ha, yes it is

[led37zep]

Wow...so much for that at bat. Hopefully two more.

LOL-Da fish.

[Da Fish]

He is going after him. Why not. Willis is doing great against lefties.

[waltermitty]

http://boles.com/called/06/bonds.jpg


_______________________

[Bossanova]

Ruth also didn't play against the likes of Clemens, Randy Johnson and other hopped up pitchers.

[Da Fish]

Bonds up next!!!

[led37zep]

wow a 'roid promo right before he bats

[Da Fish]

wow a 'roid promo right before he bats

:lol:

[led37zep]

:lol:

Made me laugh too.

[Bossanova]

Thanks alot..... You ruined it... I just saw that commercial. :lol:

[Snacks]

http://boles.com/called/06/bonds.jpg


_______________________

Ruth also didn't play against the likes of Clemens, Randy Johnson and other hopped up pitchers.

or blacks, latinos, asians etc. We will also never know what was used to get an advatage back in the 20's, 30, 40's and on and on. Im sure there may have been some sort of drug that may have been taken back then to help recover faster or whatever. We dont know b/c everything wasnt scrutinized like it is now. Shit, back then sports writers knew a lot about illegal activities players did and cheating on wives etc and they would never write about it.

By the way steroids were around for 30 or 4o years now. Other supplements were also used through the years that later got banned. I say who cares? I dont!

Go Barry! The greatest baseball player ever! Period end of story!

[led37zep]

or black, latinos, asians etc. We will also never know what was used to get an advatage back in the 20's, 30, 40's and on and on. Im sure there may have been some sort of drug that may have been taken back then to help recover faster or whatever. We dont know b/c everything wasnt scrutinized like it is now. Shit back then sports writes knew a lot about illegal activities players did and cheating on wives etc and they would never write about it.

By the way steroids were around for 30 or 4 years now. Other supplements were also used through the years that later got banned. I say who cares? I dont!

Go Barry! The greatest baseball player ever! Period end of story!

Snacks...you're my new favorite poster!

[Bossanova]

or blacks, latinos, asians etc. We will also never know what was used to get an advatage back in the 20's, 30, 40's and on and on. Im sure there may have been some sort of drug that may have been taken back then to help recover faster or whatever. We dont know b/c everything wasnt scrutinized like it is now. Shit, back then sports writers knew a lot about illegal activities players did and cheating on wives etc and they would never write about it.

By the way steroids were around for 30 or 4o years now. Other supplements were also used through the years that later got banned. I say who cares? I dont!

Go Barry! The greatest baseball player ever! Period end of story!

Thaaaaaank You!!!!!

[Bossanova]

Very Funny. That PRICK Fallon put * in the title

[Da Fish]

Very Funny. That PRICK Fallon put * in the title

:lol:

[led37zep]

ha ha ha...fallon you prick. funny as shit!

[HBox]

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/img/06-07/0626wrestler.jpg

"You guys are right! Steroids rule!"

[Bossanova]

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/img/06-07/0626wrestler.jpg

"You guys are right! Steroids rule!"

Steriods don't make you mentally insane. He shouldn't have been on advil that sick fuck.

[led37zep]

Here we go again!

[Bossanova]

Come on

[led37zep]

well....um....ok. Willis did a good job pitching to Bonds, he earned my respect tonight for sure.

[Bossanova]

Wait don't tell me................... Just kidding, great job tonight

[Da Fish]

Way to go D-Train

[Tenbatsuzen]

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/img/06-07/0626wrestler.jpg

"You guys are right! Steroids rule!"

One can only hope that he'll take the same route, and Selig will take the same course of action that Vince did - TOTAL ERASURE FROM HISTORY

[PhilDeez]

One can only hope that he'll take the same route, and Selig will take the same course of action that Vince did - TOTAL ERASURE FROM HISTORY

Couldn't agree more!
For all those who applaud Barry's greatness and anoint him king of kings while ignoring steroids had anything to do with ability to bounce back from injury etc. how about throwing a nod to Ken Griffy Jr. The guy, plagued with injury, never took the cream or the clear, never had his hat size swell three sizes and yet he is still climbing the all time list. Better yet, A Rod. Guess what he will pass Bonds tainted all time record and maybe will even surpass the single season mark - while clean, and facing all of these jacked up pitchers that the Bond's apologist bring up.
I don't care for Bonds, but do appreciate the fact he called BoB Costas "midget man".

[Judge Smails]

. . . how about throwing a nod to Ken Griffy Jr. The guy, plagued with injury, never took the cream or the clear, never had his hat size swell three sizes and yet he is still climbing the all time list.

I beg to differ:

http://nbadraft.net/actor/kengriffeyjrsimpsons.jpg

[Tenbatsuzen]

I don't see why we're all getting worked up about this. Just like McGwire's record only stood for a few years, A-Rod, if he keeps his pace up, will take the title away from Bonds sometime in about 5-6 years.

[Bossanova]

I don't see why we're all getting worked up about this. Just like McGwire's record only stood for a few years, A-Rod, if he keeps his pace up, will take the title away from Bonds sometime in about 5-6 years.

If he leaves Yankke Stadium, maybe even sooner. Even though he has no problems hitting there

[Marc with a c]

I don't see why we're all getting worked up about this. Just like McGwire's record only stood for a few years, A-Rod, if he keeps his pace up, will take the title away from Bonds sometime in about 5-6 years.

yeah but everyone made a big deal out of mcgwire and sosa in 98.

[HBox]

yeah but everyone made a big deal out of mcgwire and sosa in 98.

Carneys and rubes, Carneys and rubes.......

[Snoogans]

i cant wait for this to happen. Goddamn will it be awesome when people finally lighten up and dont care so much about a record.

the best player I ever watched play live was Griffey in his prime. Not even close.

[TheMojoPin]

i cant wait for this to happen. Goddamn will it be awesome when people finally lighten up and dont care so much about a record.

the best player I ever watched play live was Griffey in his prime. Not even close.

While I agree that people get worked up over a lot of bullshit and relatively meaningless sports "records," is it really surprising to see people get emotional over what is possibly the greatest record in American sports?

And I agree about Griffey. When he hits a home run to this day it's still with the prettiest and most perfect swing I've ever seen a player have.

[Snacks]

Snacks...you're my new favorite poster!

Thaaaaaank You!!!!!

Thanks guys, Im so tired of the holier (sp?) then now people preaching from their moral mountains about how bad of a guy Barry is. If he did steroids oh well. If he didnt same thing.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/img/06-07/0626wrestler.jpg

"You guys are right! Steroids rule!"

I Hate wrestiling but steroids had nothing to do with him killing his wife and kid. Roid rage is an instant thing, you dont tie someone up, kill them, wait a day kill your kid and then wait nother day to kill yourself. He was just crazy, but people like you make stupid and uneducated comments about things you know nothing about just to make yourself feel better.

well....um....ok. Willis did a good job pitching to Bonds, he earned my respect tonight for sure.

He really did. He didnt back away and pussy out. He challenged Bonds and you cant ask for more then that

Couldn't agree more!
For all those who applaud Barry's greatness and anoint him king of kings while ignoring steroids had anything to do with ability to bounce back from injury etc. how about throwing a nod to Ken Griffy Jr. The guy, plagued with injury, never took the cream or the clear, never had his hat size swell three sizes and yet he is still climbing the all time list. Better yet, A Rod. Guess what he will pass Bonds tainted all time record and maybe will even surpass the single season mark - while clean, and facing all of these jacked up pitchers that the Bond's apologist bring up.
I don't care for Bonds, but do appreciate the fact he called BoB Costas "midget man".

I agree Griiffey is and always will be a stud. And you will never know if Griffey did or didnt do juice. Steroids arent taken to get you huge in sports (especially baseball) they are used for recovery so your able to go back out and play the next day.

By the way, I may be wrong about this but do remember reading that a cortisone shot is a steroid and its meant to help recover and allow a player to play through pain and strength (for a short time) the muscles and or joints. If you have a problem with steroids, then you should have a problem with anything that isnt "natural" Like cortisone shots, massages, supplements, electronic muscle stimulator's and a ton of other things that have helped players play longer and recover quicker. Tommy john surgery is known to make a pitcher stronger and throw up to 3 mph faster. Some pitchers have helped extend their careers and pad #'s b/c of this and some players have actually made them better (Example Gagne) Gagne was shit before his 1st tommy john surgery. After the surgery that made him a reliever and then a closer. His fast ball increased by 3 mph and he became a stud closer for 3 years. He even broke a record of consecutive save (around 90+ saves straight) . Should we bitch about him breaking a record or being able to pitch after he has now had a 2nd tommy john surgery? No way

And after all is said and done Barry didnt do anything illegal based on baseball rules and never failed a drug test. If he admits to doing steroids in 2001 it still means nothing, they werent banned at the time. By the way you still have to be able to hit the ball, see the ball and have bat speed. All of which steroids doesnt help, oh and barry plays in a pitchers park and a park that is even worse on lefties.

Good luck haters

[HBox]

I Hate wrestiling but steroids had nothing to do with him killing his wife and kid. Roid rage is an instant thing, you dont tie someone up, kill them, wait a day kill your kid and then wait nother day to kill yourself. He was just crazy, but people like you make stupid and uneducated comments about things you know nothing about just to make yourself feel better.

You better watch it son. Your mouth is writing checks your ass can't cash.

[epo]

F-Selig!

Why the Bud hate? Just because he's not sucking Bond's dick on this? If anybody has seen the tests it's A.H. Selig, Jr.



And after all is said and done Barry didnt do anything illegal based on baseball rules and never failed a drug test. If he admits to doing steroids in 2001 it still means nothing, they werent banned at the time. By the way you still have to be able to hit the ball, see the ball and have bat speed. All of which steroids doesnt help, oh and barry plays in a pitchers park and a park that is even worse on lefties.

Good luck haters

Umm...wouldn't Barry have done something illegal under federal law via the 1988 Anti-Drug Abuse Act, which essentially made anibolical steriods illegal unless given via prescription? Which is exactly why Congress has been able to stick their nose in the matter?

[Snacks]

Why the Bud hate? Just because he's not sucking Bond's dick on this? If anybody has seen the tests it's A.H. Selig, Jr.



Umm...wouldn't Barry have done something illegal under federal law via the 1988 Anti-Drug Abuse Act, which essentially made anibolical steriods illegal unless given via prescription? Which is exactly why Congress has been able to stick their nose in the matter?

yes and no. First if you do something illegal when it comes to regular law then you can go to jail but it has nothing to do with stats when it comes to baseball. Until something is illegal in the eyes of baseball then nothing happens to a player. (well now it does because of the nfl, mlb and nba getting tougher) As for legal and illegal steroids it all comes down to how you got it. If your getting it from a Dr its legal so if all players were able to get a prescription for juice would that be ok? All the steroids that Bonds is suspected of taking were all being developed at the time. May be he was the guinea pig. Just like other pharmaceutical companies, they have humans test out their drugs before going to market. Maybe Bonds was doing the same thing. Then that wont be illegal in the federal case and not illegal in baseballs eyes because it wasnt a rule at the time. Andro was sold legally until they decided to make it illegal a few years later. At the time it wasnt illegal in baseball so he did nothing wrong. Every player started taking andro after Mcguire broke the record (every player is exaggerated but a lot did) So everyone that took it enhanced their totals? No


By the way what about cortisone shots, they are illegal unless a Dr gives it to you. Maybe all these juicers were shot in the ass directly from theirs Dr's, then all is well! Listen we can go back and forth all day.

[HBox]

yes and no. First if you do something illegal when it comes to regular law then you can go to jail but it has nothing to do with stats when it comes to baseball. Until something is illegal in the eyes of baseball then nothing happens to a player. (well now it does because of the nfl, mlb and nba getting tougher) As for legal and illegal steroids it all comes down to how you got it. If your getting it from a Dr its legal so if all players were able to get a prescription for juice would that be ok? All the steroids that Bonds is suspected of taking were all being developed at the time. May be he was the guinea pig. Just like other pharmaceutical companies, they have humans test out their drugs before going to market. Maybe Bonds was doing the same thing. Then that wont be illegal in the federal case and not illegal in baseballs eyes because it wasnt a rule at the time. Andro was sold legally until they decided to make it illegal a few years later. At the time it wasnt illegal in baseball so he did nothing wrong. Every player started taking andro after Mcguire broke the record (every player is exaggerated but a lot did) So everyone that took it enhanced their totals? No


By the way what about cortisone shots, they are illegal unless a Dr gives it to you. Maybe all these juicers were shot in the ass directly from theirs Dr's, then all is well! Listen we can go back and forth all day.

You questioned my intelligence and then go on to write this?

[Snacks]

You questioned my intelligence and then go on to write this?

I called you out on something you know nothing about (roid rage) please explain to me what is wrong about any of those statements?

[HBox]

I called you out on something you know nothing about (roid rage) please explain to me what is wrong about any of those statements?

Besides your complete and utter ignorance of the laws pertaining to the development and use of prescription drugs?

Everything.

BTW, that Benoit post was a JOKE. If I was interested in getting into this argument for the 9 billionth time I would have.

[Ritalin]

Obviously Bonds is eventually going to break the record.

I hope in the next at bat the pitcher has the guts to put the first pitch right in his earhole. I hope it just misses him.

Then I hope the pitcher does it again.

[scottinnj]

I thought cortizone shots were for joint swelling.

Anabolic Steroids artificially speed up muscle growth.

Cortizone shots don't.

[Snacks]

I thought cortizone shots were for joint swelling.

Anabolic Steroids artificially speed up muscle growth.

Cortizone shots don't.

that could be true. I dont know for sure. But what people hate most about Bonds and all steroid users is that it help recovery and gives players an edge. Well so does a cortisone shot. Whatever they do, they are both illegal unless a dr gives it to you and they both help players play. Like I said before most people agree that steroids in baseball has nothing to do with making guys huge it more for recovery and conditioning. Since the steroid ban most players suspended for doing juice have been pitchers and speedsters. They arent big so we will never truly know who did and didnt take steroids. So hating and bitching about bonds or wanting him to get hurt etc its meaningless. I would love to see all the preachers that hate bonds, what they would say if someone like a jeter or clemens or griffey did steroids and it was proven. Would everyone want their records gone or would they just say "it wasnt illegal, it was the era, oh well" ? I would bet yes b/c people hated bonds his whole career b/c he was so good and didnt kiss ass. He hated the media so the media loved to write shit negative about him. Some of you think Bonds should be so happy just because he plays baseball and that hes not like us. He has good days and bad days. How would you feel if 50 people were up in your face every day? Bad day and good days? You would tell them to fuck off, and so would I and rightfully so. The media is a bunch of assholes.

[TheGameHHH]

he just hit 755

[waltermitty]

*

[MikeB]

*

you showed him.

[IamFogHat]

I couldn't stand Bonds for a few years there, but the more this drama/record race has progressed I've really grown to love the guy and have been rooting for him in a weird, unexplicable way.

[Fezticle98]

Way to go, Gary! Glad to hear you finally have another hit!

http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/1605/bdgaryus1rp2.jpg

[TheGameHHH]

these announcers on ESPN2 are just hammering the steroid issue. neither are comming out and saying it, but both are certainly giving off the impression that they believe Barry is a cheat and does not deserve this record.

[Fezticle98]

these announcers on ESPN2 are just hammering the steroid issue. neither are comming out and saying it, but both are certainly giving off the impression that they believe Barry is a cheat and does not deserve this record.

Hmm...where would they get a crazy idea like that?

[TheGameHHH]

Hmm...where would they get a crazy idea like that?

i know but youre missing my point, they are being extremely obvious about the fact that they both believe he's a juicer. normally announcers will talk about the issue but they kind of skirt around their personal opinions, these guys are making it known without saying directly that they think he's a cheater.

[Snacks]

these announcers on ESPN2 are just hammering the steroid issue. neither are comming out and saying it, but both are certainly giving off the impression that they believe Barry is a cheat and does not deserve this record.

they can say or do whatever they want. He didnt cheat. In order to cheat or do something against the rules there has to be a rule. If he did or didnt do steroids there were no rules against them during the time he is expected of taking them.

Im so happy he tied and will soon be the HR Record holder. Look at his #'s he has almost 3000 hits (needs 70 or so), 2500 walks, over 2200+ runs, almost 2000 rbis (needs 20), 755 hrs and on base % of .444, slugging of over .600, 500+ sb's, 7 time league MVP (most ever), 8 gold gloves. When its all said he is by far the best player in baseball history. He wasnt just a great hitter he was a stud outfielder defensively and had power, speed and average. No one is all around better then he is and was.

Congratulations Barry Bonds!

[Fezticle98]

Best drugged-up player ever.

He is a criminal and a cheater. If he wasn't cheating, why did he go to such painstaking lengths to hide his roid use? Why not just come out and admit it and say, "Well, it wasn't against the rules."

Irvin in the Hall of Fame and Bonds tying Aaron*. Great day for druggies in sports. Bad day for the good guys.

[PapaBear]

This Bonds guy. Is he a baseball player?

[TheMojoPin]

Best drugged-up player ever.

He is a criminal and a cheater. If he wasn't cheating, why did he go to such painstaking lengths to hide his roid use? Why not just come out and admit it and say, "Well, it wasn't against the rules."

Irvin in the Hall of Fame and Bonds tying Aaron*. Great day for druggies in sports. Bad day for the good guys.

Look, baseball's history is riddled with players and events that you could question because they come after some kind of ruling or decision or "example case." I'm not cheering on what he did like it's totally "pure," whatever THAT means, but to act like Bond did something that is some kind of exception in the sport's history is just being in complete denial.

With or without drugs, the man is one of the greatest hitters ever. He didn't just coast into this.

[Fezticle98]

Look, baseball's history is riddled with players and events that you could question because they come after some kind of ruling or decision or "example case." I'm not cheering on what he did like it's totally "pure," whatever THAT means, but to act like Bond did something that is some kind of exception in the sport's history is just being in complete denial.

With or without drugs, the man is one of the greatest hitters ever. He didn't just coast into this.

I'm not acting like Bonds' roiding is unique. I know a lot of players have done it, and older players have probably cheated in different ways. I just don't care to celebrate Bonds' accomplishments in comparison to Aaron, Ruth and others who I don't believe cheated. It's a poor excuse to say "Well, others did it."

I agree that even without the drugs, he's probably one of the greatest hitters of all time. Likely Top 10. But there's no denying that steroids are what pushed him from great to superhuman. Without the roids, he's not the greatest of all time, and he's not the leading home run hitter of all time. I think that his cheating, and cheating by other players, is a slap in the face to the guys who did it, and are doing it, the right way.

[MikeB]

they can say or do whatever they want. He didnt cheat. In order to cheat or do something against the rules there has to be a rule. If he did or didnt do steroids there were no rules against them during the time he is expected of taking them.

Im so happy he tied and will soon be the HR Record holder. Look at his #'s he has almost 3000 hits (needs 70 or so), 2500 walks, over 2200+ runs, almost 2000 rbis (needs 20), 755 hrs and on base % of .444, slugging of over .600, 500+ sb's, 7 time league MVP (most ever), 8 gold gloves. When its all said he is by far the best player in baseball history. He wasnt just a great hitter he was a stud outfielder defensively and had power, speed and average. No one is all around better then he is and was.

Congratulations Barry Bonds!

QQQQQQFFFFFFTTTTTTT

[MikeB]

Best drugged-up player ever.

He is a criminal and a cheater. If he wasn't cheating, why did he go to such painstaking lengths to hide his roid use? Why not just come out and admit it and say, "Well, it wasn't against the rules."

Irvin in the Hall of Fame and Bonds tying Aaron*. Great day for druggies in sports. Bad day for the good guys.

Ron Bennington has probably done more drugs then both of them combined. You still enjoy his show right? Or do you just switch off every drug reference/joke/story he does?

[Fezticle98]

Ron Bennington has probably done more drugs then both of them combined. You still enjoy his show right? Or do you just switch off every drug reference/joke/story he does?

Silly comparison.

Did Ron take a drug that made him funnier and more talented? Or was he naturally funny and has worked at his craft?

Barry Bonds is naturally talented and has worked hard, but that wasn't enough for him. He had to take drugs that directly improved his performance.

If you prefer a competition of who can take more and better drugs, then so be it. Bonds wins! I would prefer baseball decided by skill, strategy, and performance under pressure.

[MikeB]

Silly comparison.

Did Ron take a drug that made him funnier and more talented? Or was he naturally funny and has worked at his craft?

Barry Bonds is naturally talented and has worked hard, but that wasn't enough for him. He had to take drugs that directly improved his performance.

If you prefer a competition of who can take more and better drugs, then so be it. Bonds wins! I would prefer baseball decided by skill, strategy, and performance under pressure.
You sir are the silly one.

Would Ron's humorous drug references/jokes/stories be that funny if he didnt do the drugs that are the back bone of those stories.

Comparison works. You just don't want it to.

[prothunderball]

You sir are the silly one.

Would Ron's humorous drug references/jokes/stories be that funny if he didnt do the drugs that are the back bone of those stories.

Comparison works. You just don't want it to.

There's no way of knowing that. For all we know, Ron might have better even funnier stories if he had never done drugs. However if you accept that Bonds has done steroids, I think it's safe to assume that he would not be about to break the record.

[Doctor Z]

Is it true that the fan who caught 755 threw it back onto the field? If this is true, I have the UTMOST RESPECT for this person... As much as I DESPISE Bonds, I wouldn't even have the guts to throw away that kind of money.

[MikeB]

There's no way of knowing that. For all we know, Ron might have better even funnier stories if he had never done drugs. However if you accept that Bonds has done steroids, I think it's safe to assume that he would not be about to break the record.

The fact is Ron would have NO drug stories if he never did them. No stories of Don Vido trying to get into rooms. No story of skipping school and stealing from a drug dealer. Odds are little rap stories.

Notice how you say, "There is no way of knowing" when it comes to Ron but you have no problem assuming about Bonds.

[MikeB]

Is it true that the fan who caught 755 threw it back onto the field? If this is true, I have the UTMOST RESPECT for this person... As much as I DESPISE Bonds, I wouldn't even have the guts to throw away that kind of money.

I saw the video with the announcer saying that, I doubt that. Most fans bring an extra ball to games like this. We will find out later on today.

[prothunderball]

The fact is Ron would have NO drug stories if he never did them. No stories of Don Vido trying to get into rooms. No story of skipping school and stealing from a drug dealer. Odds are little rap stories.

Notice how you say, "There is no way of knowing" when it comes to Ron but you have no problem assuming about Bonds.

there is no way of knowing when it comes to Ron because we're dealing with a hypothetical, and with a hypothetical there really is no way of knowing. What I said about Bonds is that "if you accept that he did steroids," that is where I draw the assumption from, and why I have no problem making it. So id you rhink my assumption you're either saying that he never did steriods, which would make you Ron comparison moot, or that he would be breaking this record with or without steroids, which I personly think is ridiculous.

[MikeB]

there is no way of knowing when it comes to Ron because we're dealing with a hypothetical, and with a hypothetical there really is no way of knowing. What I said about Bonds is that "if you accept that he did steroids," that is where I draw the assumption from, and why I have no problem making it. So id you rhink my assumption you're either saying that he never did steriods, which would make you Ron comparison moot, or that he would be breaking this record with or without steroids, which I personly think is ridiculous.

THERE IS NO HYPOTHETICAL. I have essentially repeated the comparison over and over in this thread and you guys continue to ignore it so I will make it more simple.

If Ron would of not done drugs we would not have all these references/jokes/stories involving drugs. If Neil Armstrong had never landed on the moon he would not have references/jokes/stories involving knowing what it is like to land on the moon.

[sailor]

THERE IS NO HYPOTHETICAL. I have essentially repeated the comparison over and over in this thread and you guys continue to ignore it so I will make it more simple.

If Ron would of not done drugs we would not have all these references/jokes/stories involving drugs. If Neil Armstrong had never landed on the moon he would not have references/jokes/stories involving knowing what it is like to land on the moon.

ok, i could say the drug stories are the least interesting segment of the show and actually detract from the show overall. and that's where your argument falls apart...it's a subjective matter of taste. you can't say if it adds to the show except in your opinion. bonds cheated to have a definitive, measurable, physical advantage.

[MikeB]

ok, i could say the drug stories are the least interesting segment of the show and actually detract from the show overall. and that's where your argument falls apart...it's a subjective matter of taste. you can't say if it adds to the show except in your opinion. bonds cheated to have a definitive, measurable, physical advantage.
Ok, just like you can say the drug stories are the least interesting sefment of the show I can say steriods hurts as much as it helps when it comes to hitting homeruns. I know someone that took them and his ops dropped like crazy.

If someone has a problem with the product of drug use then they should not listen or be as outrage as they are with Bonds whenever Rap calls in, acid talk, Don Vito stories, any drug joke, putting drug money in a gas can, and it goes on.

It is not a matter of taste, drugs have a large part (minutes wise) in the show.

[IMSlacker]

Ok, just like you can say the drug stories are the least interesting sefment of the show I can say steriods hurts as much as it helps when it comes to hitting homeruns. I know someone that took them and his ops dropped like crazy.

If someone has a problem with the product of drug use then they should not listen or be as outrage as they are with Bonds whenever Rap calls in, acid talk, Don Vito stories, any drug joke, putting drug money in a gas can, and it goes on.

It is not a matter of taste, drugs have a large part (minutes wise) in the show.

Are you East Side Dave's secret identity? You have a very similar debating style. This reminds me of Friday's sandwich discussion.

[MikeB]

Are you East Side Dave's secret identity? You have a very similar debating style. This reminds me of Friday's sandwich discussion.

No. Nobody has been able to prove me wrong yet, they all trying to create strawman arguments. Some people just have such a obsession over Barry Bonds that they can't realize they are hypocrits.

[Fat_Sunny]

Was Howard Stern Or Anthony Cumia (Or Any Other Radio Talk Show-Comedian With Whom He Could Be Considered Competitive) Put At A Competitive Dis-Advantage By Ron's Drug Use? No.

Was Henry Aaron ('s Record) Put At A Competitive Dis-Advantage By Bonds Drug Use: Yes.

[Snacks]

Wow I have a lot to respond to.

Best drugged-up player ever.

He is a criminal and a cheater. If he wasn't cheating, why did he go to such painstaking lengths to hide his roid use? Why not just come out and admit it and say, "Well, it wasn't against the rules."

Irvin in the Hall of Fame and Bonds tying Aaron*. Great day for druggies in sports. Bad day for the good guys.

Hes not a criminal and he didnt cheat. To cheat you must have a rule in place against something. Plain and simple. Players have been taking drugs, vitamins, weight gainers and weight loss meds that eventually had rules against them.

You want him to admit to doing something? Why? To make you feel better? Do you admit to everything you ever did that others dont like? Have you done nothing against the law or cheated a little on your taxes or anything? I love the upitty holier then now people. If you dont like him thats fine. You go through life hating some one for something that doesnt effect you personally or your life at all.

QQQQQQFFFFFFTTTTTTT

What?

Ron Bennington has probably done more drugs then both of them combined. You still enjoy his show right? Or do you just switch off every drug reference/joke/story he does?

Wow, thats a good one. It kind of shows how so many people are hypocrites on this board. So many people bash everything but when the show or something they like do something thats not up and up or whatever then its ok, its our boys!

Silly comparison.

Did Ron take a drug that made him funnier and more talented? Or was he naturally funny and has worked at his craft?

Barry Bonds is naturally talented and has worked hard, but that wasn't enough for him. He had to take drugs that directly improved his performance.

If you prefer a competition of who can take more and better drugs, then so be it. Bonds wins! I would prefer baseball decided by skill, strategy, and performance under pressure.

Drugs might be the reason he is the person he is (ron that is)



You sir are the silly one.

Would Ron's humorous drug references/jokes/stories be that funny if he didnt do the drugs that are the back bone of those stories.

Comparison works. You just don't want it to.

my point exactly.

ok, i could say the drug stories are the least interesting segment of the show and actually detract from the show overall. and that's where your argument falls apart...it's a subjective matter of taste. you can't say if it adds to the show except in your opinion. bonds cheated to have a definitive, measurable, physical advantage.

once again even if he did do steroids he wasnt the only one. There is talk that as much as 90% of the league has taken some sort of steroid or stimulant to enhance their game. If thats true then I would say players were just leveling the playing field.

At the end of the day anyone who has ever played a sport or worked out knew for years that they (athletes) did steroids. No one cared until the media and a book told you that you had to care and told you how to think. When players hit bombs people loved talking about it and would even discuss "I wonder what hes on" no one woulod have ever cared if it wasnt forced down our throats by dorky non athletic sports writers who are such book who couldnt stand to see their idol (aaron) go down to a cocky ass. Yet no one knows for sure if bonds did steroids, or what other players in the 60's and 70's did.

Not that there is a rule in place you can say or do whatever you want, but prior to 2004 Bonds tested negative for all tests given and since then he has test negative for all steroids tests. It is what it is.

[Fezticle98]

Your arguments boil down to a few simple points. You can couch them in different ways, but it's still the same argument.

Other people cheated, so it's ok that Bonds did.
Ron did drugs, myself and other posters have used drugs, so it's ok that Bonds used steroids.

We don't know what players may have done in the past, so it's ok that Bonds used steroids.

Bonds and his apologists continue to insist that there is no proof that he did steroids, while simultaneously excusing it if, hypothetically, he did. So, what is it? Did he not take steroids? Or did he, but it's ok, because other people use drugs and other players cheated?

I would have more respect for him if he would come out and admit it. I follow cycling, a sport that is plagued by cheaters of its own. Most of them take the Bonds route and deny, deny, deny. However, some have chosen to come clean and have returned to the sport as an advocate for a drug free sport.

Bonds achieved this record by nefarious means. No amount of excuses will change that.

[MikeB]

Was Howard Stern Or Anthony Cumia (Or Any Other Radio Talk Show-Comedian With Whom He Could Be Considered Competitive) Put At A Competitive Dis-Advantage By Ron's Drug Use? No.

Was Henry Aaron ('s Record) Put At A Competitive Dis-Advantage By Bonds Drug Use: Yes.
Henry Aaron was put a competitive dis-advantage against barry bonds? I had no idea. Barry has to be like 80 years old to play against Barry Bonds.

Barry Bonds is not the only player to do Steriods!!!! Barry hit his 755th home run off a fucking guy that tested positive for steriods, something Bonds has never done.

F_S, worry less about the shift key and more about critical thinking.

[sailor]

Your arguments boil down to a few simple points. You can couch them in different ways, but it's still the same argument.

Other people cheated, so it's ok that Bonds did.
Ron did drugs, myself and other posters have used drugs, so it's ok that Bonds used steroids.

We don't know what players may have done in the past, so it's ok that Bonds used steroids.

Bonds and his apologists continue to insist that there is no proof that he did steroids, while simultaneously excusing it if, hypothetically, he did. So, what is it? Did he not take steroids? Or did he, but it's ok, because other people use drugs and other players cheated?

I would have more respect for him if he would come out and admit it. I follow cycling, a sport that is plagued by cheaters of its own. Most of them take the Bonds route and deny, deny, deny. However, some have chosen to come clean and have returned to the sport as an advocate for a drug free sport.

Bonds achieved this record by nefarious means. No amount of excuses will change that.

"if he did cheat, this is how he did it"

[sailor]

Henry Aaron was put a competitive dis-advantage against barry bonds? I had no idea. Barry has to be like 80 years old to play against Barry Bonds.

Barry Bonds is not the only player to do Steriods!!!! Barry hit his 755th home run off a fucking guy that tested positive for steriods, something Bonds has never done.

F_S, worry less about the shift key and more about critical thinking.

fat clearly said aaron's record was put at a competitive disadvantage, not aaron himself. now you're just being dishonest.

[MikeB]

fat clearly said aaron's record was put at a competitive disadvantage, not aaron himself. now you're just being dishonest.
Was Howard Stern Or Anthony Cumia (Or Any Other Radio Talk Show-Comedian With Whom He Could Be Considered Competitive) Put At A Competitive Dis-Advantage By Ron's Drug Use? No.

Was Henry Aaron ('s Record) Put At A Competitive Dis-Advantage By Bonds Drug Use: Yes.
So a piece of paper is competing against Barry Bonds?
Ugh.

Your arguments boil down to a few simple points. You can couch them in different ways, but it's still the same argument.

Other people cheated, so it's ok that Bonds did.
Ron did drugs, myself and other posters have used drugs, so it's ok that Bonds used steroids.

We don't know what players may have done in the past, so it's ok that Bonds used steroids.

Bonds and his apologists continue to insist that there is no proof that he did steroids, while simultaneously excusing it if, hypothetically, he did. So, what is it? Did he not take steroids? Or did he, but it's ok, because other people use drugs and other players cheated?

I would have more respect for him if he would come out and admit it. I follow cycling, a sport that is plagued by cheaters of its own. Most of them take the Bonds route and deny, deny, deny. However, some have chosen to come clean and have returned to the sport as an advocate for a drug free sport.

Bonds achieved this record by nefarious means. No amount of excuses will change that.

NONE OF WHAT YOU SAID IS MY ARUGMENT. But hey you tell us what are argument is so it makes you feel better about your hypocrisy.
How did Barry Bonds cheat if he didnt break a rule?
I am not going to repeat the Ron argument again in this post because I have in many others yet you flat out lied about what my argument is about it in your post above.

[IMSlacker]

So a piece of paper is competing against Barry Bonds?
Ugh.

Isn't that what the argument is about? Numbers on a piece of paper? Are you sure you're not a board character?

[MikeB]

Isn't that what the argument is about? Numbers on a piece of paper? Are you sure you're not a board character?
This argument is about a bunch a men's negative obsession with baseball player.

Bonds is competing against players of his generation to hit 756 home runs. Hank Aarons stupid record is just sitting there not doing a thing.

[sailor]

This argument is about a bunch a men's negative obsession with baseball player.

Bonds is competing against players of his generation to hit 756 home runs. Hank Aarons stupid record is just sitting there not doing a thing.

i've heard a few negative things here (and there) aboot bonds, but you're the one who seems to be frothing at the mouth.

also, if it's just a "stupid record", why bother to post on the subject at all? i don't think you believe what you wrote there.

[prothunderball]

THERE IS NO HYPOTHETICAL. I have essentially repeated the comparison over and over in this thread and you guys continue to ignore it so I will make it more simple.

If Ron would of not done drugs we would not have all these references/jokes/stories involving drugs. If Neil Armstrong had never landed on the moon he would not have references/jokes/stories involving knowing what it is like to land on the moon.

1 a : an assumption or concession made for the sake of argument b : an interpretation of a practical situation or condition taken as the ground for action

the bolded part is exactly what a hypothetical situation is. Using the word "if" makes it one. I could say "if ron never did drugs, he'd be eating french toast on venus right now," but he did do drugs so there is no way of knowing for sure what any other outcome would have been.
but let me break down why your comparison is flawed for you once again,

1. Radio personalities aren't expected not to drugs. Ron himself has said numerous times that if they drug testing in radio, 90 percent of the people would be gone.
2. There is no way to prove that Ron's drug use put him at the top of his game. You can repeat again about how much we all love his drug stories but that won't change the fact that you cannot prove that those are what got him where he is today.
3. Your original statement was, "Ron Bennington has probably done more drugs then both of them combined. You still enjoy his show right? Or do you just switch off every drug reference/joke/story he does?" as it was said before by other, One can still enjoy a drug story by Ron, because it is expected that radio host will not do drugs, however it is expected that baseball player won't do drugs. Also the drugs Bonds did, were clearly performance enhancing, and when he took was most likely fairly certain that they would improve his game. With the drugs Ron did, for all he knew at the time of him taking them they could have left him brain dead in ditch. I'm sure he wasn't shooting smack saying to himself, "Oh yeah, I'm gonna get so fucking high right now, so in ten years I'll have so hilarious stories to tell on the radio."

The funny thing is I pretty much agree with you on Bonds, I'm glad he's breaking the record, and really could not care if he took steroids or not, I just think you made a horribly flawed argument, and shit like that pissed me off.

[TheMojoPin]

Was Howard Stern Or Anthony Cumia (Or Any Other Radio Talk Show-Comedian With Whom He Could Be Considered Competitive) Put At A Competitive Dis-Advantage By Ron's Drug Use? No.

Was Henry Aaron ('s Record) Put At A Competitive Dis-Advantage By Bonds Drug Use: Yes.

You could very easily argue that Hank's record was put at a "dis-advantage" by modern baseball, period. Same goes for Aaron vs. Ruth. This is why this issue is a lot more subjective and not nearly as black and white as everyone wants to make it. In theory, everything would be riddled with pissy little asterisks when you're looking at these records being sperated by such large periods of time. By this logic, Maris' asterisk is deserved because he had a "dis-advantage" over Ruth with the longer regular season. What if Ken Griffey, jr. stayed healthy and broke the record? He had access to medical science that the other two didn't. It would have been much easier for him to study and review footage of the other pitchers. Surely he has competitive "dis-advantages" over Aaron and Ruth.

This isn't an argument from trying to exonerate Bonds as some greta human being...but to just so readily dismiss him because of the era he played in is ridiculous.

[Bulldogcakes]

they can say or do whatever they want. He didnt cheat. In order to cheat or do something against the rules there has to be a rule. If he did or didnt do steroids there were no rules against them during the time he is expected of taking them.

Im so happy he tied and will soon be the HR Record holder. Look at his #'s he has almost 3000 hits (needs 70 or so), 2500 walks, over 2200+ runs, almost 2000 rbis (needs 20), 755 hrs and on base % of .444, slugging of over .600, 500+ sb's, 7 time league MVP (most ever), 8 gold gloves. When its all said he is by far the best player in baseball history. He wasnt just a great hitter he was a stud outfielder defensively and had power, speed and average. No one is all around better then he is and was.

Congratulations Barry Bonds!

That makes one of you.

First of all, lets relax about the his fielding ability. He plays Left Field, the spot where you put your OF player with the least ability. If he had any great skills, he would have been in Right or Center. Second, there may have not been a specific MLBaseball rule about steroids, but steroids are illegal substances and he broke the law. Also, anyone who cant see the problem with steroids has no concept of a level playing field or fair play. This is sports, not pro wrestling.

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PHO/AAHG191_8x10~Babe-Ruth-Red-Sox-Posters.jpg
Third, call me when he wins 20 games and sets WS records as a pitcher which still stand to this day.

Can you imagine what Ruth would have done if steroids were around when he was playing? Bonds needed steroids to be as good as Ruth.

[Bulldogcakes]

Best drugged-up player ever.

He is a criminal and a cheater. If he wasn't cheating, why did he go to such painstaking lengths to hide his roid use? Why not just come out and admit it and say, "Well, it wasn't against the rules."

Irvin in the Hall of Fame and Bonds tying Aaron*. Great day for druggies in sports. Bad day for the good guys.

And if the steroids don't make any difference, why did he take them?

[Bulldogcakes]

You could very easily argue that Hank's record was put at a "dis-advantage" by modern baseball, period. Same goes for Aaron vs. Ruth. This is why this issue is a lot more subjective and not nearly as black and white as everyone wants to make it. In theory, everything would be riddled with pissy little asterisks when you're looking at these records being sperated by such large periods of time. By this logic, Maris' asterisk is deserved because he had a "dis-advantage" over Ruth with the longer regular season. What if Ken Griffey, jr. stayed healthy and broke the record? He had access to medical science that the other two didn't. It would have been much easier for him to study and review footage of the other pitchers. Surely he has competitive "dis-advantages" over Aaron and Ruth.

This isn't an argument from trying to exonerate Bonds as some greta human being...but to just so readily dismiss him because of the era he played in is ridiculous.


Mojo, we all understand that comparing era's is frought with ambiguity. For every "never played against blacks" you give me I'll give you "played in 8 team league". For every "never saw a slider" (wasn't invented yet) you give me I'll give you "never saw film on opposing pitchers".

You just have to accept the numbers at the end of the day. But the fact that there is now a rule against the way Bonds achieved his numbers makes you view him in a different light. Like when you look at players from the "Dead Ball Era" differently than those that came after. The "Steroid Era" will be looked at as an anomoly as well. You'll probably see someone hit .400 before anyone hits 75 HR's clean.

[Tenbatsuzen]

Snacks brings up an interesting point. Usually 3000 hits is an automatic entry to the HOF. The steroids may have padded his HR numbers, but those hits shows patience for good pitches. If you took away 300 of his home runs because of Steroid use, you're still looking at 450 HR's / 2500 hits. Those are HOF credentials, cheating or not.

[TheGameHHH]

Snacks, Bonds is certainly a criminal. If you want to ignore the evidence then fine, but read Game of Shadows and understand that he lied under Oath, thats perjruy, he's a criminal.

[Marc with a c]

Snacks, Bonds is certainly a criminal. If you want to ignore the evidence then fine, but read Game of Shadows and understand that he lied under Oath, thats perjruy, he's a criminal.

IMPEACH BONDS!!!

[cougarjake13]

YOU KNOW WHAT ???

he may or may not have cheated but its still the beating of a major record and i was alive to see it so thats cool


also i dont know if anyone else caught it but sportscenter was showing a recap of bonds milestone homers... 1, 100,200,300,400,500,600,660,661,700,714,715,and 755

the one thing i noticed is from #1 on up he was gradually getting bigger in each milestone homer clip

and the main thing people say about bonds is look at his rookie year and now, look at the difference and yes its a great difference but when you see those clips as he progresses thru th years he isnt getting massively big like over one offseason but rather just a little bigger each year

it doesnt mean he didnt do it but it certainly makes it look more natural then the media has you believe when they make it seem like he went from 185 to 245 in one offseason

[citymedic27]

I watched Barry hit 755 live last nite, i was happy for him to reach this milestone. I think Barry has some explaining to do, but you cant deny this. Barry has never tested positive for steriods or preformence enhancers. Until anyone here, MLB admin, or in the general public have a positve test, then Barry is innocent; because in this country you are innocent until proven guily in a court of law, not a court of the media.

[sailor]

By this logic, Maris' asterisk is deserved because he had a "dis-advantage" over Ruth with the longer regular season.

there never was an asterisk.

Snacks brings up an interesting point. Usually 3000 hits is an automatic entry to the HOF. The steroids may have padded his HR numbers, but those hits shows patience for good pitches. If you took away 300 of his home runs because of Steroid use, you're still looking at 450 HR's / 2500 hits. Those are HOF credentials, cheating or not.

who has ever argued he isn't a HOF caliber player? (although if you took away those arbitrary 300 homers, they'd likely be something like 250 fly-ball outs.)

[sailor]

I watched Barry hit 755 live last nite, i was happy for him to reach this milestone. I think Barry has some explaining to do, but you cant deny this. Barry has never tested positive for steriods or preformence enhancers. Until anyone here, MLB admin, or in the general public have a positve test, then Barry is innocent; because in this country you are innocent until proven guily in a court of law, not a court of the media.

innocent till proven guilty is a legal concept only. you can't tell people what to think.

[Snacks]

Mojo, we all understand that comparing era's is frought with ambiguity. For every "never played against blacks" you give me I'll give you "played in 8 team league". For every "never saw a slider" (wasn't invented yet) you give me I'll give you "never saw film on opposing pitchers".

You just have to accept the numbers at the end of the day. But the fact that there is now a rule against the way Bonds achieved his numbers makes you view him in a different light. Like when you look at players from the "Dead Ball Era" differently than those that came after. The "Steroid Era" will be looked at as an anomoly as well. You'll probably see someone hit .400 before anyone hits 75 HR's clean.

never played against, latins or asians either. There may have only been 8 teams but those 8 teams might not have been fielded with the best players we had to offer. Back then playing baseball was a part time job and some players decided not to play at all. How about there was a lesser pool of players? Like 200 million or so plus all of South America. There were less people in America to choose from. How about the fact that pitchers back then pitched 9 innings sometimes more (if extra innings) and they would pitch every 2 or 3 days instead of every 5 sometimes twice in 1 day. That gives the batter a better chance to get a hit or a HR. Why you ask? Anyone who knows about baseball knows the more you see a pitcher in a game the better chance to hit him. Also the more these guys pitched the more their arms were like rubber, making it easier to hit.

For every theory you have, there is an argument against. If Bonds did steroids fine it is illegal by law not by baseball at the time. So he did nothing against the rule of the sport. You will never know who did and didnt and for how long. Clemens continues to pitch and has gotten better since his late 30's. Hes gotten bigger too. I noticed you were happy when the yanks signed him. Wait til next year when the yanks sign bonds as the DH. They need power and a DH, he is a lefty and that ballpark is built for him. I I want this to happen so bad!

[TheGameHHH]

never played against, latins or asians either. There may have only been 8 teams but those 8 teams might not have been fielded with the best players we had to offer. Back then playing baseball was a part time job and some players decided not to play at all. How about there was a lesser pool of players? Like 200 million or so plus all of South America. There were less people in America to choose from. How about the fact that pitchers back then pitched 9 innings sometimes more (if extra innings) and they would pitch every 2 or 3 days instead of every 5 sometimes twice in 1 day. That gives the batter a better chance to get a hit or a HR. Why you ask? Anyone who knows about baseball knows the more you see a pitcher in a game the better chance to hit him. Also the more these guys pitched the more their arms were like rubber, making it easier to hit.

For every theory you have, there is an argument against. If Bonds did steroids fine it is illegal by law not by baseball at the time. So he did nothing against the rule of the sport. You will never know who did and didnt and for how long. Clemens continues to pitch and has gotten better since his late 30's. Hes gotten bigger too. I noticed you were happy when the yanks signed him. Wait til next year when the yanks sign bonds as the DH. They need power and a DH, he is a lefty and that ballpark is built for him. I I want this to happen so bad!

pretty much the last thing the Yanks need is power or a DH

[cougarjake13]

also buth played in an era where the fields where much bigger, so who knows how many homers he would have under current baseball stadiums dimensions


i think it was a sports illustrated article a few years ago that took ruth's 60 homer season and just in yankee home games alone if he would have had current yankee stadium diomensions he would have had 86 homers that year instead of 60, and thats not counting how many more he would have had on the road in smaller ballparks he coulda hit 100

[Fat_Sunny]

also buth played in an era where the fields where much bigger, so who knows how many homers he would have under current baseball stadiums dimensions

Rabe Buth Was The Best!

[cougarjake13]

Rabe Buth Was The Best!

hands down no doubt about it

smaller ballparks, more team expansion and subsequent weaker pitching, and not pitching the first few years of his career and he easily would have topped 1000 career homers

[MikeB]

1 a : an assumption or concession made for the sake of argument b : an interpretation of a practical situation or condition taken as the ground for action

the bolded part is exactly what a hypothetical situation is. Using the word "if" makes it one. I could say "if ron never did drugs, he'd be eating french toast on venus right now," but he did do drugs so there is no way of knowing for sure what any other outcome would have been.
but let me break down why your comparison is flawed for you once again,

1. Radio personalities aren't expected not to drugs. Ron himself has said numerous times that if they drug testing in radio, 90 percent of the people would be gone.
2. There is no way to prove that Ron's drug use put him at the top of his game. You can repeat again about how much we all love his drug stories but that won't change the fact that you cannot prove that those are what got him where he is today.
3. Your original statement was, "Ron Bennington has probably done more drugs then both of them combined. You still enjoy his show right? Or do you just switch off every drug reference/joke/story he does?" as it was said before by other, One can still enjoy a drug story by Ron, because it is expected that radio host will not do drugs, however it is expected that baseball player won't do drugs. Also the drugs Bonds did, were clearly performance enhancing, and when he took was most likely fairly certain that they would improve his game. With the drugs Ron did, for all he knew at the time of him taking them they could have left him brain dead in ditch. I'm sure he wasn't shooting smack saying to himself, "Oh yeah, I'm gonna get so fucking high right now, so in ten years I'll have so hilarious stories to tell on the radio."

The funny thing is I pretty much agree with you on Bonds, I'm glad he's breaking the record, and really could not care if he took steroids or not, I just think you made a horribly flawed argument, and shit like that pissed me off.
So the basis of your argument is radio hosts are not EXPECTED to be drug-free but baseball players are??!!! Who decides what is EXPECTED? And how can something be expected when it wasnt even a rule when he did it? I want to say from this point forward I expect all baseball players to not allow home runs to Yankee Stadiums short right field to count towards their career total.

Also, once again you are lying.
My point as I have said it before about the Ron comparison is Drug references are a part of the show. I am not playing the hypothetical game like you all. Everyone can agree the drug references take up time during the 3 hour broadcast. If people have such a problem with one product of drug use, they should have the same problem with another product of drug use.

[prothunderball]

So the basis of your argument is radio hosts are not EXPECTED to be drug-free but baseball players are??!!! Who decides what is EXPECTED?
Well that's part of my argument, and as to who decides it, I guess it's the fans, who pay the money to either support a baseball team and a radio show. The basis of your argument is that people should have the same feelings about drug use no matter who uses them and for what purpose, to me that is silly and it simply isn't the way the human psyche works. I don't care if the guy cooking my fries at Burger is high as a kite, but I don't want the guy flying my plane stoned.
And how can something be expected when it wasnt even a rule when he did it?
That's a fair point, but just because somthing isn't a rule doesn't mean it can't be expected by a fan base.
I want to say from this point forward I expect all baseball players to not allow home runs to Yankee Stadiums short right field to count towards their career total.
hey maybe if you can get the majority of the fan base behind you, you might be on to something.

Also, once again you are lying.
My point as I have said it before about the Ron comparison is Drug references are a part of the show. I am not playing the hypothetical game like you all.
yeah you were, but I'm not going to bother giving you the defination agai. Everyone can agree the drug references take up time during the 3 hour broadcast. If people have such a problem with one product of drug use, they should have the same problem with another product of drug use.
I'm not lying, we just have a differnce of opinion. The drug use in questioin in these two examples is very very differnt. As well as the product that the drug use in question be two very very differnt products. Formost of which is that Ron took the drugs for recrational use, that isn't hypothetical. Bonds took drugs, to enhance his performance, that isn't hypothetical. As far as I'm concerned those two facts alone make your example, fail.

Bottom line, I think it's a bad example, and you seem to think it's GREAT! We disagree on that, and aparently we're not going to convice each other otherwise, so I'm going to stop wasting my time.

[sailor]

also, i think if bonds did the drugs ronnie allegedly did earlier in life, no one would be accusing him of cheating.

[MikeB]

also, i think if bonds did the drugs ronnie allegedly did earlier in life, no one would be accusing him of cheating.

Well I am not accusing him of cheating. That was the argument earlier in the thread then people brought up he did something illegal in this country...

[TheMojoPin]

there never was an asterisk.

Not officially, of course not, but it stull gets tossed up in discussion, and that was my point. Do you have a counter-argument to the issue of the season being longer?

[sailor]

Not officially, of course not, but it stull gets tossed up in discussion, and that was my point. Do you have a counter-argument to the issue of the season being longer?

the livelier ball. i only mentioned the asterisk thing because, sadly, a lot of people still think it's real.

[Bulldogcakes]

Not officially, of course not, but it stull gets tossed up in discussion, and that was my point. Do you have a counter-argument to the issue of the season being longer?

Best one I've heard is that the record is HR/season. Which makes no distinction for how long the season is. Also, why only this one record? You'd have to put an asterisk next to every "___"/season record since the onset of the 162 game season if you want to be consistent about it.

All of that being said, I still agree with you. Maris hit the fucker on the final day of the season and had an extra 50 AB's to do so.

[Snacks]

pretty much the last thing the Yanks need is power or a DH

Thats not true. The yanks are going to need power. ARod is the only true power guy on the team. Giambi might be if he returns to a his 40 hr old self (he wont). Matsui is having a good hr year but hes not a "power" guy (well in America hes not). The rest of the team is a bunch of 15 maybe 20 hr guys at best. Thats not a lot of power. If and when ARod opts out of his contract they will have no real power and Giambi has 1 year left on his deal. I think the yanks may try to trade Giambi and pick up part of his salary and Bonds would fit nicely in yankee stadium and the short right field porch. He could hit 40 maybe 50 hrs as a 44 yr if he became a yankee.

Best one I've heard is that the record is HR/season. Which makes no distinction for how long the season is. Also, why only this one record? You'd have to put an asterisk next to every "___"/season record since the onset of the 162 game season if you want to be consistent about it.

All of that being said, I still agree with you. Maris hit the fucker on the final day of the season and had an extra 50 AB's to do so.

you keep forgetting that there is more people to choose from to pitch. Not only has America tripled its own population baseball also picks from other countries. Ruth Never played against blacks, latinos, or asians. Pitchers didnt pitch as hard/fast back then and the pitchers were over used and worked, making it easier to hit. So lets put a * next to all Ruth's records. You cant because it is what it is and things will always be different. Good and bad on both sides of the issue. Take it for what it is, Bonds is the HR king.

[Bulldogcakes]

you keep forgetting that there is more people to choose from to pitch. Not only has America tripled its own population baseball also picks from other countries. Ruth Never played against blacks, latinos, or asians. Pitchers didnt pitch as hard/fast back then and the pitchers were over used and worked, making it easier to hit. So lets put a * next to all Ruth's records. You cant because it is what it is and things will always be different. Good and bad on both sides of the issue. Take it for what it is, Bonds is the HR king.

I'm forgetting no such thing. I'm well aware of the fact that the talent pool is much larger, and the MLB has doubled its # of teams to reflect that. I have no problem with that. And I agree that Ruth had X number of advantages and X number of disadvantages when he played. Now tell me how many more HR's Ruth would have hit with 50 more AB's. That's the main point me and Mojo were discussing.

The year he hit 60 he was on a tear for the final month of the season and hit 17 of his 60 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/1998/target61/flashbacks/maris.html) in September alone, averaging a HR every 5.3 AB's. That would give him 69 if you extend that season for another 50 AB's. For the season he averaged 1 HR every 9 AB's. If he slowed down to his season average he would have hit 66 with the extra 50 AB's.

And the same way you just cant compare stats from the "Dead Ball Era" to the Modern era, you cant compare stats from the "Steroid Era" to the Modern Era. Its just not an apples to apples comparison. As you argued, the rules were different. Namely the rule banning steroid use was not in place. We'll need to wait ten years AFTER the steroid ban went onto effect to be able to do some league adjusted statistical comparisons. Those adjustments will need to be done on a player to player basis, since some were using and others weren't. But whatever the result, Bond's adjusted #'s will go DOWN, not up.

[cougarjake13]

I'm forgetting no such thing. I'm well aware of the fact that the talent pool is much larger, and the MLB has doubled its # of teams to reflect that. I have no problem with that. And I agree that Ruth had X number of advantages and X number of disadvantages when he played. Now tell me how many more HR's Ruth would have hit with 50 more AB's. That's the main point me and Mojo were discussing.

The year he hit 60 he was on a tear for the final month of the season and hit 17 of his 60 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/1998/target61/flashbacks/maris.html) in September alone, averaging a HR every 5.3 AB's. That would give him 69 if you extend that season for another 50 AB's. For the season he averaged 1 HR every 9 AB's. If he slowed down to his season average he would have hit 66 with the extra 50 AB's.

And the same way you just cant compare stats from the "Dead Ball Era" to the Modern era, you cant compare stats from the "Steroid Era" to the Modern Era. Its just not an apples to apples comparison. As you argued, the rules were different. Namely the rule banning steroid use was not in place. We'll need to wait ten years AFTER the steroid ban went onto effect to be able to do some league adjusted statistical comparisons. Those adjustments will need to be done on a player to player basis, since some were using and others weren't. But whatever the result, Bond's adjusted #'s will go DOWN, not up.

and also like i said above ruth played in larger ball parks and greatly reduced the number of homers he had, maybe i posted it in the bonds thread i dont remeber but there was an S.I. article that said that the year ruth hit 60 he would have had 86 if he played in the current yankee stadium alone, so he very well could have hit over 100 if you used the sdmaller road ballparks

[MikeB]

and also like i said above ruth played in larger ball parks and greatly reduced the number of homers he had, maybe i posted it in the bonds thread i dont remeber but there was an S.I. article that said that the year ruth hit 60 he would have had 86 if he played in the current yankee stadium alone, so he very well could have hit over 100 if you used the sdmaller road ballparks
never faced situational lefties or the closers of now.

[sailor]

another thing, the talent pool is larger...but they are playing many other sports, all of which have grown in size. i'd be very interested to see what percentage of the overall pool play baseball professionally in the united states, but i wouldn't have a clue where to begin figuring it out. someone contact rob neyer and get him on it.

[cougarjake13]

never faced situational lefties or the closers of now.

oh yeh theres many points both ways

just didnt see anyone else throwing out the bigger ballparks aspect

[Bulldogcakes]

another thing, the talent pool is larger...but they are playing many other sports, all of which have grown in size. i'd be very interested to see what percentage of the overall pool play baseball professionally in the united states, but i wouldn't have a clue where to begin figuring it out. someone contact rob neyer and get him on it.

Excellent point. Baseball has been wringing its hands for the past few years about how the best young Black athletes are choosing Basketball or Football over Baseball, which they find to be "boring". The percentage of blacks in baseball has declined steadily for 30 years. So there's an enormous talent pool which is simply choosing to go elsewhere.

[sailor]

Excellent point. Baseball has been wringing its hands for the past few years about how the best young Black athletes are choosing Basketball or Football over Baseball, which they find to be "boring". The percentage of blacks in baseball has declined steadily for 30 years. So there's an enormous talent pool which is simply choosing to go elsewhere.

yeah, so bonds hasn't had to face the best black athletes. interesting.

[Bulldogcakes]

and also like i said above ruth played in larger ball parks and greatly reduced the number of homers he had, maybe i posted it in the bonds thread i dont remeber but there was an S.I. article that said that the year ruth hit 60 he would have had 86 if he played in the current yankee stadium alone, so he very well could have hit over 100 if you used the sdmaller road ballparks

To be fair, they custom built Yankee stadium to suit his swing. It wasn't called "The House That Ruth Built" for nothing. He was a lefty pull hitter and the short porch in Yankee stadium was ideal for him. I think it was even shorter down the RF line then (296 ft) than it is today (310 ft) and had only a 3 foot fence. Also, to be fair Willie Mays played the first 6 years of his career in the Polo Grounds, which was a joke of a bandbox and Hank Aaron played for 9 years in the "launching pad" of Atlanta. Bonds plays in a legit ballpark, but the steroids add length to the fly balls he hits.

[MikeB]

Excellent point. Baseball has been wringing its hands for the past few years about how the best young Black athletes are choosing Basketball or Football over Baseball, which they find to be "boring". The percentage of blacks in baseball has declined steadily for 30 years. So there's an enormous talent pool which is simply choosing to go elsewhere.

The likes of Albert Pujols, Vlad, Ortiz, Manny, Jose Reyes, and others have more than replaced the great Black American players that arent playing baseball.

[cougarjake13]

To be fair, they custom built Yankee stadium to suit his swing. It wasn't called "The House That Ruth Built" for nothing. He was a lefty pull hitter and the short porch in Yankee stadium was ideal for him. I think it was even shorter down the RF line then (296 ft) than it is today (310 ft) and had only a 3 foot fence. Also, to be fair Willie Mays played the first 6 years of his career in the Polo Grounds, which was a joke of a bandbox and Hank Aaron played for 9 years in the "launching pad" of Atlanta. Bonds plays in a legit ballpark, but the steroids add length to the fly balls he hits.

i know it was built for him and the majority of the extra yankee stadium homers were ones that were hit to deep center that would have been out in the newer stadium

[sailor]

The likes of Albert Pujols, Vlad, Ortiz, Manny, Jose Reyes, and others have more than replaced the great Black American players that arent playing baseball.

so you're saying great latin american players are better than great american black players would have been? what could you possibly be basing this on? "kobe bryant never played a serious game of baseball, but i can project how good a 3b he would have been."

[PhilDeez]

yeah, so bonds hasn't had to face the best black athletes. interesting.

Ha. That is the best spin yet! If I may, I will have to use that with the sports radio shlubs I listen to throughout the day.

[Grendel_Kahn]

Did anyone else just here Jim Leyritz say on sportscenter that he eywitnessed people taking steroids? When asked to name who he said he would never tell, that he wasn't a Jose Canseco.

I had to rewind my DVR twice to make sure I heard that.

[Grendel_Kahn]

Also, the whole RUTH, BONDS thing. Ruth played in an era where the parks were bigger, the bal had the "pop" of a wet sock, the mound was higer, there was no "batters eye" in the outfield, there were no training programs,shorter seasons and most importantly, they played in the daytime.

Bonds plays in an era where there are lefty specialists, and the game is intergrated.


Pluses and minuses for both.

First and foremost remember that many very good black players played in the major by saying they were spanish. Also, take the number of homeruns hit by Bonds pitched by a black pitcher and it's not really that big a difference. But the stat that everyone ALWAYS forgets, is that while Ruth was hitting those homeruns, he was also the dominant pitche of his era. He would oftentimes pitch one day and play right field/first for the next 3 games.

Oh, and the year Ruth hit 60? The player nearest to him hit 9. He outhit whole TEAMS.

The reason they called it the house that Ruth built had nothing to do with the short porch. When they were building the Stadium, the owners at the time decided to add a second deck ( unheard of at the time) to fit more people in who anted to see Ruth.

So, in conclusion, all things being equal, I would take Ruth over Bonds in every single game.

[TheMojoPin]

Oh, and the year Ruth hit 60? The player nearest to him hit 9. He outhit whole TEAMS.

On the flipside, Ruth's style of "bash the ball" was something he basically introduced on his own. You had guys like Ty Cobb before him he could very much hit for a ton of HR power but opted not to because the style of play was much different. Hell, once Ruth showed up, Cobb went out of his way to point out when he was going to smack a few out, do so, and then go back to how he was playing before.

I'm not saying Ruth wasn't a monster, because he was, put pointing out the gap between him and other players hitting HR's then is a bit flawed since you had guys capable of hitting a lot more of them who were essentially choosing not to.

[Snacks]

Excellent point. Baseball has been wringing its hands for the past few years about how the best young Black athletes are choosing Basketball or Football over Baseball, which they find to be "boring". The percentage of blacks in baseball has declined steadily for 30 years. So there's an enormous talent pool which is simply choosing to go elsewhere.


But the pool is still larger because latin america and asia. Even if you want to subtract the great blacks what about the others?


To be fair, they custom built Yankee stadium to suit his swing. It wasn't called "The House That Ruth Built" for nothing. He was a lefty pull hitter and the short porch in Yankee stadium was ideal for him. I think it was even shorter down the RF line then (296 ft) than it is today (310 ft) and had only a 3 foot fence. Also, to be fair Willie Mays played the first 6 years of his career in the Polo Grounds, which was a joke of a bandbox and Hank Aaron played for 9 years in the "launching pad" of Atlanta. Bonds plays in a legit ballpark, but the steroids add length to the fly balls he hits.

very true and very good point. I totally forgot about that and you post it even though it goes against what your fighting about. Atleast someone can be fair!:king:

The likes of Albert Pujols, Vlad, Ortiz, Manny, Jose Reyes, and others have more than replaced the great Black American players that arent playing baseball.

as stated above.

Who said blacks were saying they were spanish so they could play? Are you serious? Wasnt Jackie the first minority to play baseball? How and why would they allow latins in the league first and we never talk about it? It never happened, even latin players thank jackie, without him they wouldnt be playing.

[Bulldogcakes]

The reason they called it the house that Ruth built had nothing to do with the short porch. When they were building the Stadium, the owners at the time decided to add a second deck ( unheard of at the time) to fit more people in who anted to see Ruth.

So, in conclusion, all things being equal, I would take Ruth over Bonds in every single game.

The phrase was coined because Ruth was such a huge gate attraction that they were outdrawing the Giants in their own ballpark (Polo Grounds) and the owner Charles Stoneham wanted the Yanks out. So they had to build a new ballpark, and the phrase "House that Ruth built" caught on. All of that being said, the Yanks did tailor their new ballpark for their main attraction. The dimensions of the Polo Grounds were the opposite, a short left porch and longer right field fences.

And I agree with you about Ruth. If you look at Ruth's adjusted numbers (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/ruthba01.php) adjusting for all the factors of shorter season, era he played in, etc etc. The stat geeks figure he would have hit over 1000 HR's.

[sailor]

Ha. That is the best spin yet! If I may, I will have to use that with the sports radio shlubs I listen to throughout the day.

:) please do. be my guest.

[A.J.]

I wish there was a way that Pete Rose and Barry Bonds could go into the Hall of Fame together the way Ripken and Gwynn did ths year. They could be the "Douchebag Class of 20__."

[MikeB]

Who said blacks were saying they were spanish so they could play? Are you serious? Wasnt Jackie the first minority to play baseball? How and why would they allow latins in the league first and we never talk about it? It never happened, even latin players thank jackie, without him they wouldnt be playing.

I dunno what you are getting mad about and I have no idea what "Who said blacks were saying they were spanish so they could play."
I was saying that the great black players of about 30 years ago that bulldog thinks are playing other sports now have been replaced by great latin players.

[TheGameHHH]

On the flipside, Ruth's style of "bash the ball" was something he basically introduced on his own. You had guys like Ty Cobb before him he could very much hit for a ton of HR power but opted not to because the style of play was much different. Hell, once Ruth showed up, Cobb went out of his way to point out when he was going to smack a few out, do so, and then go back to how he was playing before.

I'm not saying Ruth wasn't a monster, because he was, put pointing out the gap between him and other players hitting HR's then is a bit flawed since you had guys capable of hitting a lot more of them who were essentially choosing not to.

how exactly do guys "choose" not to hit home runs, score more runs and help their team?

[TheMojoPin]

how exactly do guys "choose" not to hit home runs, score more runs and help their team?

I thought it was nutty myself until I started reading more books about the history of old timey baseball. The home run was generally considered a kind of "cheap shot" with most players for baseball's first few decades. It was "ungentlemanly" to not give the opposing team even a small chance to make a play after you hit the ball. As such, a lot of guys who very easily could have been big power hitters (at least for the time) opted to try and pull for doubles and triples instead. Cobb, obviously head and shoulders above pretty much anyone else, is the best example. When the press would bait him about not hitting more home runs when the game started shift in that direction Cobb would declare he was going to hit more, go on a tear and knock a few out for the next game or even the next week and then brag about easy it was and then go back to what he considered a more skilled style of offense...base hits and a ton of steals.

Now I'm not saying Ruth still wouldn't have left pretty much every other white player in the dust...he would have. But it's a bit inaccurate to toss out something like the "60 to 9" stat as if 9 was all anyone could muster trying to hit as many home runs as possible. The game was a lot different then.

And then you get into the arguments that there were Negro League players who hit even more home runs than Ruth ever did...

[underdog]

I thought it was nutty myself until I started reading more books about the history of old timey baseball. The home run was generally considered a kind of "cheap shot" with most players for baseball's first few decades. It was "ungentlemanly" to not give the opposing team even a small chance to make a play after you hit the ball. As such, a lot of guys who very easily could have been big power hitters (at least for the time) opted to try and pull for doubles and triples instead. Cobb, obviously head and shoulders above pretty much anyone else, is the best example. When the press would bait him about not hitting more home runs when the game started shift in that direction Cobb would declare he was going to hit more, go on a tear and knock a few out for the next game or even the next week and then brag about easy it was and then go back to what he considered a more skilled style of offense...base hits and a ton of steals.

From what I've read, it was basically because all of these guys were taught to swing level, and never put an uppercut on the ball. But Ruth was so arrogant that he never cared what people taught him and continued to swing with an uppercut. And because he was so powerful, no one really tried to stop him as he learned.

[underdog]

Who said blacks were saying they were spanish so they could play? Are you serious? Wasnt Jackie the first minority to play baseball? How and why would they allow latins in the league first and we never talk about it? It never happened, even latin players thank jackie, without him they wouldnt be playing.

From reading Bill James, he talks about in the late 1800s and (very) early 1900s there were several latin players in the major leagues. And he mentioned at least one black player who passed for latin for several years.

[TheGameHHH]

I thought it was nutty myself until I started reading more books about the history of old timey baseball. The home run was generally considered a kind of "cheap shot" with most players for baseball's first few decades. It was "ungentlemanly" to not give the opposing team even a small chance to make a play after you hit the ball. As such, a lot of guys who very easily could have been big power hitters (at least for the time) opted to try and pull for doubles and triples instead. Cobb, obviously head and shoulders above pretty much anyone else, is the best example. When the press would bait him about not hitting more home runs when the game started shift in that direction Cobb would declare he was going to hit more, go on a tear and knock a few out for the next game or even the next week and then brag about easy it was and then go back to what he considered a more skilled style of offense...base hits and a ton of steals.

Now I'm not saying Ruth still wouldn't have left pretty much every other white player in the dust...he would have. But it's a bit inaccurate to toss out something like the "60 to 9" stat as if 9 was all anyone could muster trying to hit as many home runs as possible. The game was a lot different then.

And then you get into the arguments that there were Negro League players who hit even more home runs than Ruth ever did...

ok i get what youre saying.......but that brings forth another question, which underdog might have answered, but im gonna ask it anyway. how come then when Ruth started jacking home runs it was all of a sudden ok and the old "ungentlemanly" philosophy went out the window?

[cougarjake13]

ok i get what youre saying.......but that brings forth another question, which underdog might have answered, but im gonna ask it anyway. how come then when Ruth started jacking home runs it was all of a sudden ok and the old "ungentlemanly" philosophy went out the window?

money


http://img.qj.net/uploads/articles_module2/75173/dollar-sign_qjpreviewth.jpg

[TheMojoPin]

ok i get what youre saying.......but that brings forth another question, which underdog might have answered, but im gonna ask it anyway. how come then when Ruth started jacking home runs it was all of a sudden ok and the old "ungentlemanly" philosophy went out the window?

Well, like Jake said, money and fame once everyone saw everything Ruth was getting....but at the same time, it's not like everything changed overnight. It took the better of a decade or more for the game to really shift towards more home runs.

Ruth was seen as a kind of "beautiful freak" for a good number of years, even by a lot of people who loved him. He was seen as being an exception to the game that wouldn't change everything once he was gone. Obviously, that's not how it worked out...

[buzzard]

I care about Barry Bonds just about as much as he seems to care for his fans. I think it's sad for baseball in general that he's diminished one of the most sacred milestones with his own malaise.he deserves to know that the game is far bigger than he is.

[Snacks]

I dunno what you are getting mad about and I have no idea what "Who said blacks were saying they were spanish so they could play."
I was saying that the great black players of about 30 years ago that bulldog thinks are playing other sports now have been replaced by great latin players.

I wasnt talking abot you. Someone else wrote it so I was responding without quoting the post. It was posted by Grendel_Kahn


From reading Bill James, he talks about in the late 1800s and (very) early 1900s there were several latin players in the major leagues. And he mentioned at least one black player who passed for latin for several years.

Once again how could a black player play because he pased as latin? There wasnt any latin, blacks, minorites allowed in the game before Jackie So even if someone said they were spanish how did they play?

[underdog]

Once again how could a black player play because he pased as latin? There wasnt any latin, blacks, minorites allowed in the game before Jackie So even if someone said they were spanish how did they play?

In the very early years, there were latin players playing. Although, as I think of it, it might not have been technically MLB. I'll have to look it up when I get home.

[Doctor Z]

Did anyone else just here Jim Leyritz say on sportscenter that he eywitnessed people taking steroids? When asked to name who he said he would never tell, that he wasn't a Jose Canseco.

I had to rewind my DVR twice to make sure I heard that.

Yeah, Leyritz talked pretty openly about steroids and watching people take them, and I think he even mentioned trying them himself, on O&A several months back.

[Bulldogcakes]

I thought it was nutty myself until I started reading more books about the history of old timey baseball. The home run was generally considered a kind of "cheap shot" with most players for baseball's first few decades. It was "ungentlemanly" to not give the opposing team even a small chance to make a play after you hit the ball. As such, a lot of guys who very easily could have been big power hitters (at least for the time) opted to try and pull for doubles and triples instead. Cobb, obviously head and shoulders above pretty much anyone else, is the best example. When the press would bait him about not hitting more home runs when the game started shift in that direction Cobb would declare he was going to hit more, go on a tear and knock a few out for the next game or even the next week and then brag about easy it was and then go back to what he considered a more skilled style of offense...base hits and a ton of steals.

Now I'm not saying Ruth still wouldn't have left pretty much every other white player in the dust...he would have. But it's a bit inaccurate to toss out something like the "60 to 9" stat as if 9 was all anyone could muster trying to hit as many home runs as possible. The game was a lot different then.

And then you get into the arguments that there were Negro League players who hit even more home runs than Ruth ever did...


One other thing to throw in was a bit of luck on Ruth's part. Ruth arrived in the game right around the time when the Baseball makers made an improvement in how they manufactured the baseballs. The new balls were wound tighter, and flew farther. Hence the "Dead Ball Era" was coined for the previous period.

I disagree with you about how "Guys could have hit more". I'm sure some could have hit a few more, but I'm equally sure that back then (as is the case today) playing "Little ball" is a very different skill set than those needed to be a power hitter. Another innovation with the coming of Ruth was teams started simply drafting bigger guys, looking for the next Babe. Gehrig was considered to be very big for that era (6 feet 200 lbs) and others like Foxx (6' 195lbs), Greenberg (6'3" 210 lbs) etc followed. So just the way the NBA changed after Wilt showed up, Baseball changed after Ruth did.

[Bulldogcakes]

Well, like Jake said, money and fame once everyone saw everything Ruth was getting....but at the same time, it's not like everything changed overnight. It took the better of a decade or more for the game to really shift towards more home runs.

Ruth was seen as a kind of "beautiful freak" for a good number of years, even by a lot of people who loved him. He was seen as being an exception to the game that wouldn't change everything once he was gone. Obviously, that's not how it worked out...

Ruth was also one of the first players to have an "agent" of sorts. A fellow named Christy Walsh. Someone who was basically his PR guy and went around booking him and selling him wherever he could. He also had a beat reporter assigned to HIM PERSONALLY from the NY Daily News named Marshall Hunt. It was the Roaring 20's, and it was the first era of mass marketing of sports stars in a way that is similar to how its done today. The Babe, Jack Dempsey and Bobby Jones were all built up as American icons as no sports starts were before. Its considered the beginning of the modern era media-wise. Babe had a column that ran in the NY Daily News (he also "built" that newspaper on his popularity) there were stories which grew his legend about Doctors who examined him and found him to be superhuman in one way or another. The stories of his drinking, carousing with women and speeding around (and wrecking) fast cars all added to the legend.

[citymedic27]

I care about Barry Bonds just about as much as he seems to care for his fans. I think it's sad for baseball in general that he's diminished one of the most sacred milestones with his own malaise.he deserves to know that the game is far bigger than he is.

great point. remember when Mac broke the single season HR record all the hooplay that went along with it with MLB execs and the Marist family. I was suprised that Seilig showed no emotion, no congrats or anything, but he called Arod after he 500. Barry is going to the hall, along with Mcguire.
No one can compare todays game against the game when Ruth played. too many changes, not the same. We all know that if Arod stays healthy that barry will only hold the record for 5-10yrs till Arod breaks it. I think that we should be talking about the next 300 game winner, rather than HR's

[Bulldogcakes]

I was saying that the great black players of about 30 years ago that bulldog thinks are playing other sports now have been replaced by great latin players.

Its not just me, its been discussed a lot in recent years.

Dave Winfield wrote a book on it (http://www.amazon.com/Dropping-Ball-Baseballs-Troubles-Solve/dp/customer-reviews/1416534482)
SI.com (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/news/2003/07/10/black_ballplayer/)
Article 1 (http://money.cnn.com/2007/04/13/commentary/sportsbiz/index.htm)
ESPN.com (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=2903227&type=story)
NPR show (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4975303)

Its not like I just pulled it out of my ass or something. But I would agree that the overall talent pool has increased enormously (Latin America, Japan, Caribbean, etc) But the point is generally brought up about how Ruth never played vs the best Black players, and its just an interesting irony that for the most part, neither has Bonds.

[cougarjake13]

Its not just me, its been discussed a lot in recent years.

Dave Winfield wrote a book on it (http://www.amazon.com/Dropping-Ball-Baseballs-Troubles-Solve/dp/customer-reviews/1416534482)
SI.com (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/news/2003/07/10/black_ballplayer/)
Article 1 (http://money.cnn.com/2007/04/13/commentary/sportsbiz/index.htm)
ESPN.com (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=2903227&type=story)
NPR show (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4975303)

Its not like I just pulled it out of my ass or something. But I would agree that the overall talent pool has increased enormously (Latin America, Japan, Caribbean, etc) But the point is generally brought up about how Ruth never played vs the best Black players, and its just an interesting irony that for the most part, neither has Bonds.

the only argument i can make is that the black players that ruth didnt get to play against were playing baseball at the same time as he was, just werent allowed

the potential blacks that bonds could have faced never made it to the mound due to the faster way to the big time, and quicker pay outs of basketball and football

[MikeB]

Its not just me, its been discussed a lot in recent years.

Dave Winfield wrote a book on it (http://www.amazon.com/Dropping-Ball-Baseballs-Troubles-Solve/dp/customer-reviews/1416534482)
SI.com (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/news/2003/07/10/black_ballplayer/)
Article 1 (http://money.cnn.com/2007/04/13/commentary/sportsbiz/index.htm)
ESPN.com (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=2903227&type=story)
NPR show (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4975303)

Its not like I just pulled it out of my ass or something. But I would agree that the overall talent pool has increased enormously (Latin America, Japan, Caribbean, etc) But the point is generally brought up about how Ruth never played vs the best Black players, and its just an interesting irony that for the most part, neither has Bonds.
I am not disagreeing with you on the fact the best American athletes are not playing baseball. I am saying with the great african-american players leaving the sport has come just as good if not better latin players. And you might want to add east Asian players to that.

[MikeB]

the potential blacks that bonds could have faced never made it to the mound due to the faster way to the big time, and quicker pay outs of basketball and football
You think that blacks arent playing baseball cause they are looking for a faster way to the big time and a quicker pay out?

[Bulldogcakes]

You think that blacks arent playing baseball cause they are looking for a faster way to the big time and a quicker pay out?

Read the "Article 1" thing I posted. Thats precisely whats happening.

[cougarjake13]

You think that blacks arent playing baseball cause they are looking for a faster way to the big time and a quicker pay out?

no im saying that they are going to basketball and football for those reasons

[led37zep]

When he hits 756 I suspect MLB will and (most likely) the Giants organization will have a real celebration. Tying the record wasn't the issue here, its breaking the record.

[Grendel_Kahn]

I wasnt talking abot you. Someone else wrote it so I was responding without quoting the post. It was posted by Grendel_Kahn




Once again how could a black player play because he pased as latin? There wasnt any latin, blacks, minorites allowed in the game before Jackie So even if someone said they were spanish how did they play?


Here's how and who:

The first two Latinos to play in what is now Major League Baseball were Rafael Almeida and Armando Marsans, who both joined the Cincinnati Reds of the National League in 1911.

The first "star" Latino baseball player was Adolfo Luque, who won 27 games for the Cincinatti Reds in 1923 and played for 20 years from the late 1910s through the 1930s. Though Luque achieved success, most Latino players of this time were not so lucky, having brief and undistinguishable careers in the late 1910s and 1920's. At this period in time, the United States was still largely segregated and Major League Baseball was an all-white association. As such, only light-skinned Latino players were allowed admission into the Major Leagues, while black Latino players could only play in the Negro Leagues. Latino players made their mark on the Negro Leagues, however, with many teams being comprised solely of Latino players, such as the Cuban Stars, a charter member of the Negro Leagues in 1920 . In fact, one of the first Latino players to be elected into the National Baseball Hall of Fame never played a game in Major League Baseball, but excelled in Negro League play. Martín Dihigo played every position but catcher in Cuba, Mexico, and the Negro Leagues from the 1920s through the 1940s and was the first baseball player to belong to three separate halls of fame (Mexican Baseball Hall of Fame, Cuban Baseball Hall of Fame, and National Baseball Hall of Fame).

[Grendel_Kahn]

Also, let's be honest here. If steroids were around back then, Ruth was CERTAINLY the type who would have tried them.


The argument for and against segregation nskewing stats is moot. There really were no black pitchers in the 20's and 30's and there really haven't been too many in the last 35 years. So the effect they would have had is negligable. Who are you going to bring up? Bob Gibson?

[Snacks]

This was posted on a cbssportsline message board I thought he was dead on.

"Did Barry Bonds and hundreds of other ball players from the 80s and early 90s take steroids? yeah probably. Was steroids banned from baseball? i am pretty sure it wasnt, so was it cheating when they did? Dont think so. Has anyone ever heard of Tom House? He is the guy who caught the record breaking H.Aaron Homerun in the bullpen, he also admitted to using steroids in the 70s!!!! Was he the only one??? I highly doubt it! HE was a soft throwing left handed thumber of a pitcher! Where is the witch hunt for the stars of the 70s?
Do Male Adults Gain weight from age 20 to 35? yes!
Does Steroids Make you stronger in the weight room? Yes.
Does a 400 lb bench press give you the ability to turn around a 95 MPH fastball into the bleachers? NEVER WILL.
If Barry Bonds was quiet and nice, would you even care? Doubt it!
STEROIDS SMEROIDS! Barry Bonds has one season that looks weird on his career stats, and that was 2001. What about the years before and after? Looks pretty consistent to me.
Are athletes bigger now than in the past? Yes. Sports Nutrition and Weight lifting is a huge part of all pro sports now, have you seen tiger woods with his shirt off? he is yoked and sports a 300 plus bench press.
Get over the fact that athletes have been using chemicals for 30 plus years. All it has done was limit their careers because of the injuries!
Every generation in sports has its problems.
Before jackie Robinson, players in MLB did not compete against all of the best competition because blacks were not allowed to play in the league.
The next generation to "greenies" and other stimulants(chemicals) like mike schmidt who admitted that they were available in the locker rooms.
And now this generation is the steroid generation!
Get over it! It takes talent to do the things that these guys do and no sport will ever be pure, fair, and equal balanced in any generation, because not everyone lives under the same ethical and moral system.
Whats legal today might not be in 25 years, so how do you compare?
Sit back and enjoy watching the greatest hitter of all time, yeah the guy who was intentionally walked with the bases loaded!"

[MikeB]

no im saying that they are going to basketball and football for those reasons

I think that is racist. Black people can't love a game like the way white people love a game?

[Bulldogcakes]

For the people who are defending Bonds, let me ask you this.
Do you think that all of the Olympic athletes should be allowed to use whatever steroids/blood doping/drugs they want if they're doing it trying to win? Or is it right to ban them and take away their medals when caught?

[TheMojoPin]

For the people who are defending Bonds, let me ask you this.
Do you think that all of the Olympic athletes should be allowed to use whatever steroids/blood doping/drugs they want if they're doing it trying to win? Or is it right to ban them and take away their medals when caught?

I fail to see the comparison since Bonds was never caught.

[waltermitty]

Does Bonds' Elbow Armor provide an unfair advantage????


http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003621797

[TheGameHHH]

I fail to see the comparison since Bonds was never caught.

so modify the example, think Marion Jones

[Snacks]

For the people who are defending Bonds, let me ask you this.
Do you think that all of the Olympic athletes should be allowed to use whatever steroids/blood doping/drugs they want if they're doing it trying to win? Or is it right to ban them and take away their medals when caught?

how about this comparison.

A women who needs to get artificially inseminated didnt have a child the right way? Or a women who uses another womens body to carry her child shouldnt be considered the birth mother?

Things have changed through the years for every aspect of life. Are we to disregard everything new because as times change technology creates new, easier ways to do things.

Should players that had nutritionist and trainers get an * because they had knowledge that Ruth didnt have. Or should Bagwell's #'s be thrown away because he had a hand pad to protect his left hand from breaking? These protective paddings are a reason some plaers play as long as they do or as many games because they didnt get hurt. Which gives them more chances and ab's for better #'s.

How about the pitching mound was lowered which helped the batters. Should every hitter from the 1970's get * because of that? Then Aaron would be screwed too. Andro wasnt banned, now it is. Should every player now have their #'s get an * because they cheated before it was cheating?

See those comparisons make no sense? either does yours because steroids were and have been for years against the Olympic rules. Steroids were not. Evey year baseball players receive a list of what can not be taken. If you take something on that list then you should get suspended. If you find something that works then cheers to you.

All of you haters probably never worked out, trained in a gym or played a sport well. You hate him b/c is makes you feel good or b/c you cant think for yourself and listen to what the media has told you to do. Get over it even if he lied under oath, even if he admits to steroid there is nothing baseball can do about his #'s. He didnt do anything wrong or againt baseball rules b/c there werent any rules and he hasnt failed a test since rules have been in place. Anything else hes accused of has nothing to do with baseball. If he lied under oath then the courts with go after him, if he cheated his taxes then the irs will go after him. If he cheated on his wife, she will get 1/2. Obviously none of that is true b/c they have tried to get him for 4 years now its like a witch hunt.

[Bulldogcakes]

I fail to see the comparison since Bonds was never caught.

He admitted to steroid use in the Grand Jury testimonies. But you missed the point, anyway. The people who defend Bonds often have no real problem with steroid use, so I want to get into a discussion about that line of thinking.

[Bulldogcakes]

See those comparisons make no sense? either does yours because steroids were and have been for years against the Olympic rules. Steroids were not. Evey year baseball players receive a list of what can not be taken. If you take something on that list then you should get suspended. If you find something that works then cheers to you.

All of you haters probably never worked out, trained in a gym or played a sport well. You hate him b/c is makes you feel good or b/c you cant think for yourself and listen to what the media has told you to do. Get over it even if he lied under oath, even if he admits to steroid there is nothing baseball can do about his #'s. He didnt do anything wrong or againt baseball rules b/c there werent any rules and he hasnt failed a test since rules have been in place. Anything else hes accused of has nothing to do with baseball. If he lied under oath then the courts with go after him, if he cheated his taxes then the irs will go after him. If he cheated on his wife, she will get 1/2. Obviously none of that is true b/c they have tried to get him for 4 years now its like a witch hunt.

There's no hate going on here, I'm trying to get into a discussion with someone who can talk about this without turning it into personal attacks. Which you appear to be incapable of. If you'd like to try again without the personal attacks on people you know nothing about, I'm all ears.

Here is the question, rephrased to take your response into account. If someone "deserves to be suspended" for steroid use in the Olympics, why is that? If your answer is "because its against the rules" then why do those rules exist in those sporting events?

[El Mudo]

He admitted to steroid use in the Grand Jury testimonies. But you missed the point, anyway. The people who defend Bonds often have no real problem with steroid use, so I want to get into a discussion about that line of thinking.



LEAKED grand jury testimony....which (a) should have never gotten out and (b) is completely unreliable


Mikey B got away with one there....threw him one up in the zone and he hammered a double

[TheMojoPin]

He admitted to steroid use in the Grand Jury testimonies. But you missed the point, anyway. The people who defend Bonds often have no real problem with steroid use, so I want to get into a discussion about that line of thinking.

I didn't miss the point. It's a false comparison since people could say that an Olympic athlete juiced all the want, if the tests at the time prove nothing, they're in the clear.

What Bonds did at the time wasn't against MLB rules. If he got busted now, now that they've modified their rules, sure, he's busted. But it wasn't then, he got away with it...such is life.

A big part of me is on the fence as to what athletes should be able to use. In theory, we want to see the best performances possible. It's a very subjective argument as to what is "aceptable" body enhancement and what isn't.

[Snacks]

There's no hate going on here, I'm trying to get into a discussion with someone who can talk about this without turning it into personal attacks. Which you appear to be incapable of. If you'd like to try again without the personal attacks on people you know nothing about, I'm all ears.

Here is the question, rephrased to take your response into account. If someone "deserves to be suspended" for steroid use in the Olympics, why is that? If your answer is "because its against the rules" then why do those rules exist in those sporting events?

because those were the olympic rules. For whatever reason these individual sports/clubs or organizations choose what is legal and what is not. There "legal" drugs that are illegal in certain sports. There are some "illegal" drugs that arent banned. Once something is deamned illegal by that sport then from that point forward it is a suspendable (sp or even a word?) offense. Anything prior to the rules oh well to bad. There are plenty of "legal" drugs that are more harmful then so called "illegal" drugs. What are the reasons some are legal and others are not? None, its what some assholes decide should and shouldnt be based on nothing more then their opinion. And dont say some are harmful. Like I said there are many more harmful legal drugs that are sold then there are illegal.

My comments are not directed directly at you. Just in general to all the people who sit on their moral mountain and want an apology for no reason. He did nothing to you so he owes you no apology. He didnt even do anything against the rules of baseball. Everything is to make the haters feel better. Why does it bother you so much that he may have taken steroids? I dont get it, does it do anything directly to you or against you? Many things have change to help players get an advantage over the years. Better shoes, better bats, protection, surgery, supplements and yes steroids. If they are not against the rules then so be it. Its baseballs resonability to decide whats fair and whats not. You take those rules and go from there. And this seems to be true in all forms of life. Tax codes, people figure ways around them. Stock market, people figure ways to get information without violating the rules of the market. Gamblers try to count cards in their heads and on and on.

[weekapaugjz]

and boom goes the dynamite.

[Doctor Z]

I just watched it happen live on ESPN... and I felt nothing but disgust. Today is a dark day in baseball and in sports.

[TheGameHHH]

the second he connected with that ball it was a goner, its gonna make for a good highlight reel.

[TheGameHHH]

look at the dude that caught the ball, hes getting high fived like crazy

[TheMojoPin]

Salut, Barry. You're pretty far from my favorite player, but this is pretty damn impressive, even with all the doubt.

[midwestjeff]

I don't own a TV, was it in the stands or in the cove?

listening on xm 188. nevermind.

[TheGameHHH]

VERY classy on the part of Aaron

[TheMojoPin]

That's pretty classy of Aaron...I understand not being there, but to totally ignore it would have just been petty.

[PapaBear]

I'm just glad it's over, now.

[TheMojoPin]

I don't own a TV, was it in the stands or in the cove?

listening on xm 188. nevermind.

In the stands. Guy got a phalanx of cops to escort him out.

[epo]

I'm just glad it's over, now.

No shit. QFT.

[Doctor Z]

Fakest trying-not-to-cry ever.

I feel like every fucking word that comes out of this guy's mouth is disingenuous bullshit.

[TheGameHHH]

he really fucking murdered that ball

[midwestjeff]

Like it or not, this is a "Moment". Done and done. New HR king.

[MikeB]

Did you see the guy in the orange that climbed litterally over everyone trying to get in the pile? That guy should be banned for life from giants games.

[led37zep]

I'm sooo damn glad he hit 756 in San Fran. Bad ass!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[IamFogHat]

I consider all extraneous factors (drug use, alcohol, race exemptions, ball weight/composition, etc.) to cancel out each other out, and therefore, give the guy his fucking credit, with or without steroids, which hasn't been proved he used btw, he has always been a great ball player, and his prickly nature with the press has no impact whatsoever on that. I say congrats, and godspeed.

[Doctor Z]

Homerun King*

[Kevin]

Bravo cnnsi (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/)

[Snacks]

Congratulations Barry! With all the shit you had to go through you still did it.

If you dont like him dont post or read this thread. I dont get it!

Oh and he almost hit the cycle tonight too. Hes by far the best all around player ever!

[Doctor Z]

PS - Can you imagine what it must be like to go to a ballgame, and walk out with a fortune? Seriously... that's lifechanging. You fucking show up to a game, in your Mets shirt, and you walk out with your house and your kid's education paid for.

[MikeB]

PS - Can you imagine what it must be like to go to a ballgame, and walk out with a fortune? Seriously... that's lifechanging. You fucking show up to a game, in your Mets shirt, and you walk out with your house and your kid's education paid for.

The way some of those fans (Most looked like they were not even that close to the ball) acted after the ball was hit into the stands is way worse than some guy that plays baseball taking steriods.

[hedges]

Congrats to Bond. I'm no fan of his, but he finally did it.

[midwestjeff]

Anyone else annoyed that he left the game? I don't hate him or begrudge him for his accomplishment, but i do like the "it's not about individual stats, it's about winning" gimmick. He totally threw that illusion out the window. Classic Bonds, i guess.

[Bama]

I'm so pissed off that I missed this.

[TheMojoPin]

Anyone else annoyed that he left the game? I don't hate him or begrudge him for his accomplishment, but i do like the "it's not about individual stats, it's about winning" gimmick. He totally threw that illusion out the window. Classic Bonds, i guess.

To be fair, that is a huge thing that happened and has been following him and emotionally he might just be wiped.

[Kevin]

I'm so pissed off that I missed this.

You will get to see it again in 7 years when Arod destroys it.

[Bama]

You will get to see it again in 7 years when Arod destroys it.

I'm not so sure about that anymore.

If AROD stays healthy then he has a shot but it's not even close to a sure thing.

[MikeB]

Anyone else annoyed that he left the game? I don't hate him or begrudge him for his accomplishment, but i do like the "it's not about individual stats, it's about winning" gimmick. He totally threw that illusion out the window. Classic Bonds, i guess.
Don't watch a lot of NL baseball? One run game, you have to double switch in this situation. Also he was an emotional mess after the moment. Even Bonds would have a difficult time focusing in the outfield.

[midwestjeff]

Don't watch a lot of NL baseball? One run game, you have to double switch in this situation. Also he was an emotional mess after the moment. Even Bonds would have a difficult time focusing in the outfield.

Only watch NL and fully understand the double switch. Tuned in late and didn't know the particulars of the substitution. Just sayin' is all.

[Bama]

Is this thing on Youtube yet?

[Kevin]

I'm not so sure about that anymore.

If AROD stays healthy then he has a shot but it's not even close to a sure thing.

When Bonds was his age he had like 300hrs.. Arod will demolish the rec if he stays healthy.

[PapaBear]

Is this thing on Youtube yet?
The whole process generally takes about a half hour. It should be up soon, I'm sure.

[Kevin]

Is this thing on Youtube yet?

Check espn.com i am sure they have it..

[midwestjeff]

http://my.break.com/media/view.aspx?ContentID=345730

[sailor]

Don't watch a lot of NL baseball? One run game, you have to double switch in this situation. Also he was an emotional mess after the moment. Even Bonds would have a difficult time focusing in the outfield.

i can't imagine bonds gets involved in the double-switch all that often. i have no problem with them taking him out, but i have trouble thinking it's a situational thing and had nothing to do with the record.

[sailor]

Check espn.com i am sure they have it..

or mlb.com

[PapaBear]

http://my.break.com/media/view.aspx?ContentID=345730
Get a TV Tuner for your comp, dude! (not you, jeff) He was in such a hurry to get it up quick, he didn't even spell Barry right.

[midwestjeff]

Get a TV Tuner for your comp, dude! (not you, jeff) He was in such a hurry to get it up quick, he didn't even spell Barry right.

Miss Barr Bonds. He was the greatest.

[Bama]

ESPN had the hit and the speech afterwards.

[Kevin]

Miss Barr Bonds. He was the greatest.

He didnt cheat like barry..

[MikeB]

i can't imagine bonds gets involved in the double-switch all that often. i have no problem with them taking him out, but i have trouble thinking it's a situational thing and had nothing to do with the record.
Oh I think it had some to do with the record but it is still smart NL baseball. Get a better defensive player out there (like the giants usually do) for the late innings while moving the pitchers spot down. I dont watch a lot of Giants games so I cant speak to how often he is taken out in a double switch but I imagine with his OPS that usually he is taken out for a runner.


Here is the vid off of drudge:

http://www.breitbart.tv/html/4069.html

[TheMojoPin]

Best part about all of this?

The coverage pre-empts another episode of that wretched The Bronx is Burning joke they've been trotting out.

[Snacks]

there has been rumors that Arod has done steroids. I heard it before and it was mentioned again tonight that in Jose Canseco's new book he mentions he has proof that Arod did juice. I dont believe it but it can be true. There are a lot of similarities to Bonds and Arond as far as being small (thin) and gaining a lot of muscle and size through the years. This will happen forever. All you need is one person to not like you and they can try to ruin your name. It happened to Bonds

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t261/lefty117/BarryBonds.jpg

[PapaBear]

ESPN had the hit and the speech afterwards.
Nice hit. Now I want to see all the action in the stands, around the guy who caught it.

[Bama]

Why does ESPN keep talking to these "Game of Shadows" assholes.

Can't they let it go for one damn day?

[Kevin]

Best part about all of this?

The coverage pre-empts another episode of that wretched The Bronx is Burning joke they've been trotting out.

Would you rather they make "Chicago is choking" instead??

[Snacks]

Why does ESPN keep talking to these "Game of Shadows" assholes.

Can't they let it go for one damn day?

exactly but no they need to keep all the people like Dr Z, Kevin and Bulldogs all pissed and tell them why they need to hate barry.

[Kevin]

exactly but no they need to keep all the people like Dr Z, Kevin and Bulldogs all pissed and tell them why they need to hate barry.

I am sorry.. He is a cheater a phony, and a prick.. And does not deserve shit.. Aaron went through so much shit to break that record.. And to watch this cheating low life do it, is a sad disgrace.

[Bama]

I am sorry.. He is a cheater a phony, and a prick.. And does not deserve shit.. Aaron went through so much shit to break that record.. And to watch this cheating low life do it, is a sad disgrace.

He's the home run king. Deal with it.

I don't have time to hate any non Yankee baseball player.

[midwestjeff]

I am sorry.. He is a cheater a phony, and a prick.. And does not deserve shit.. Aaron went through so much shit to break that record.. And to watch this cheating low life do it, is a sad disgrace.

It's not like history will forget Aaron and the context of his accomplishments. A great player is a great player. And by ".", I mean period.

[Bama]

We're never gonna see Aaron's HR on TV ever again.

[midwestjeff]

We're never gonna see Aaron's HR on TV ever again.

Who?

[TheMojoPin]

Would you rather they make "Chicago is choking" instead??

Haw-Haw.

I love TBIB the book...the TV series is an absolute abortion.

[midwestjeff]

Selig's quote was something to the effect of "while the issues surrounding this event have yet to be worked out, this is a day to celebrate....". or something like that. I'm paraphrasing from the radio broadcast. He really isn't into this, is he?

[PapaBear]

Haw-Haw.

I love TBIB the book...the TV series is an absolute abortion.
But I thought ESPN had a great reputation for it's sports dramas. Remember how good "3" was?

[MikeB]

I am sorry.. He is a cheater a phony, and a prick.. And does not deserve shit.. Aaron went through so much shit to break that record.. And to watch this cheating low life do it, is a sad disgrace.

Please explain how he is a cheater? What rule did he break?

I had no idea you knew Barry Bonds? Otherwise you would have no idea he was a phoney or a prick.

[Bama]

Can all those unoriginal, hack, astrisk sign holding fans die in a fire now?

K. Thx.

[Snacks]

Please explain how he is a cheater? What rule did he break?

I had no idea you knew Barry Bonds? Otherwise you would have no idea he was a phoney or a prick.

leave him alone he was told to hate barry.

I love Gaylord Pery talking shit. One of the biggest documented cheaters in baseball now site in the hall and as moral man that he is! lol

[TheMojoPin]

Will Carroll wrote:
You don't know Mark Silva, but you know his work. As a certified orthotist, Silva is one of the top builders of custom sports braces for athletes. He's made them for football players in his work with the San Francisco 49ers, and he's made them for baseball players, including Rickey Henderson and Mo Vaughn. It's the brace that Barry Bonds wears while batting that Silva is best known for.

...

It's the molds that bring forth the most interesting fact regarding Bonds since Game of Shadows was published. Silva states that because of the custom nature of the work, he's been asked to make casts of Bonds each year. In the first couple of years, he went through the entire process, but due to his workload, he started checking Bonds with precision calipers each subsequent year. "If I made the same brace every year for 12 or more years," Silva said, "it was because there was no size change in Barry's arms."

You read that correctly--the man who not only builds Bonds' brace, but who has taken precision measurements of his arm since 1992, has not seen any increase in the size of Bonds' arm. Point blank, Silva said "there's been no significant change in the size of his arms."

Heh...not that I think it lets him off the hook, but it's interesting...

[midwestjeff]

756 but no win. Congatulations Barry!

Team W L PCT GB
Arizona 63 51 .553 -
San Diego 61 51 .545 1.0
Colorado 58 54 .518 4.0
LA Dodgers 58 54 .518 4.0
San Francisco 48 62 .436 13.0

[King Imp]

Congrats to Bond.

Connery, Lazenby, or Moore?

[Justice4all]

Nice hit. Now I want to see all the action in the stands, around the guy who caught it.

And the ball was caught by a METS fan with his Yankees fan friend in tow! How fucking hysterical is that!!!!!Let's see all those NY haters eat it now! (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/08/08/bc.bbn.bonds.ball.ap/index.html)

[MikeB]

This guy is about as spot on as you can get and brings up the Adderall argument I always use:
http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-streeter7aug07,1,2514535.story?coll=la-headlines-sports&ctrack=1&cset=true

[Justice4all]

Connery, Lazenby, or Moore?

You also forgot Brosnan and Dalton.

[King Imp]

You also forgot Brosnan and Dalton.

I was thinking more along the lines of the classics.

[Snacks]

This guy is about as spot on as you can get and brings up the Adderall argument I always use:
http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-streeter7aug07,1,2514535.story?coll=la-headlines-sports&ctrack=1&cset=true

mike just post the article. Im not signing up just to read it. This way you will save everyone a little time.

[PapaBear]

And the ball was caught by a METS fan with his Yankees fan friend in tow! How fucking hysterical is that!!!!!Let's see all those NY haters eat it now! (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/08/08/bc.bbn.bonds.ball.ap/index.html)


Reporters screamed out questions, but all he managed to say was, "I'm Matt Murphy from Queens, N.Y."


That line just really cracks me up!

Can you believe he bought the ticket right before the game? What a lucky fucking bastard.

[MikeB]

mike just post the article. Im not signing up just to read it. This way you will save everyone a little time.

I am able to read it and I am def not signed up for he LA times website. They probably do that for links. Here it is:

Bonds reflects a society looking for an edge
We need to start taking a look in the mirror about our unsatiable need to alter ourselves before making a scapegoat of the Giants slugger, who is widely said to have used steroids.
By Kurt Streeter
August 7, 2007

You're a hypocrite . . .

If you knock Barry Bonds and let your daughter sneak an Adderall to do better on her college entrance test, then you're a hypocrite.

If you knock Barry Bonds and filch one of your husband's Prozacs to mellow out for a job interview, then you're the same kind of hypocrite.

Truth is, if you knock Barry Bonds and slip behind the stands to chug a few Red Bulls before playing in the office softball game, then you're a hypocrite too.

A lesser hypocrite, perhaps. But a hypocrite.

Bonds, it is widely said, has used steroids. And steroids, his extremely vocal critics say, have given the Giants slugger an unfair edge that will soon leave him standing alone with the career home run record.

But honestly, would that make Barry Bonds any different from your cousin the violinist, who takes a beta-blocker to steady his hands before a concert? Or you on Viagra, when neither of you really needs drugs medically?

I'm with John Hoberman, a professor at the University of Texas in Austin, who has long studied the tormented relationship among drugs, society and sports.

Not just in baseball, or in the Tour de France, he says, but in society at large, we are on a mad sprint to bust past our normal limits. We're awash in the use of all kinds of performance enhancements -- some illegal, some not.

As long as we do that, Hoberman says, and we don't start taking a long look in the mirror about our unsatiable need to alter ourselves, we need to think hard about singling out Barry Bonds.

He's a scapegoat. I agree.

It's simply hypocritical.

For me, none of this is to excuse illicit drug use by athletes. I cringe at the shadow our drug-addled pros have cast, at the fact I can't tell my nephew Jack that I know his sports heroes are clean.

No, this is about us. Hypocrisy is inexcusable too.

It's one thing that we're already medicinal lemmings. We take way too many pills with the encouragement of doctors who are working under the spell of companies such as Pfizer. It's even worse that loads of us are gulping pills nobody with any medical authority signed off on.

Take a look at two popular medications: Ritalin and Adderall. They can give a distracted kid the focus of a Tibetan monk. Doctors prescribe them for kids with attention disorders. These days, though, they are often the drugs of choice for kids who don't have attention problems but are looking to ace their exams. They help students cram for hours. They make a full day of testing seem as if it lasted 30 minutes.

Let's say your daughter is cramming for her SAT. She gets her hands on some of her best friend's Adderall pills and takes the pills to boost performance. Well, her scores will be stacked against those from other kids across the nation, and she'll have an unfair advantage.

It won't be just an edge in a pro sport that only a few of us have any chance of playing. It will be a cheater's advantage in the race to get into a top college, which for millions of us is the key to a lifetime of success.

How many of these kids get caught? How many get vilified? How many of their parents turn a blind eye?

We're constantly redrawing the line on what constitutes normal behavior, aptitude, beauty and performance.

As a society, we're way too OK with being users. Abusers even. And our multimillionaire athletes, the ones we -- perhaps foolishly -- hold up as paragons of virtue simply because they can run and throw, are they supposed to be different?

Said Hoberman on the phone the other day: "You can't have an enormous development in performance enhancement in society in general and expect the sports world to be immune to it."

It's not only about pharmacy drugs. We want to be able to bash Bonds and head to a surgeon to get a new chin and new lips, so we can fake everyone into thinking we've slowed the march of time. We want to bash Bonds and then drive to a health-food store and load up on non-prescription pills that have us feeling as if we can walk through walls.

Watching Bonds get booed at Dodger Stadium last week, I began pondering options.

• We throw our hands in the air and legalize performance enhancers for the pros. We allow drugs up to a certain limit and hire platoons of doctors to keep the athletes from dosing themselves to death.

• Or we go the other way. We go after drug users in sports the way we'd go after robbers trying to get inside Fort Knox. We toss out sham drug-testing programs. We sample DNA. Year round, we give not only urine tests, but blood tests too.

Some of the smarter, wealthier athletes and their scheming doctors will try to stay one step ahead of us. So we drive a stake through their pocketbooks if they slip up. Get caught? You're done. Outta here. For good.

Trust me, with millions on the line, the more sophisticated users would think twice.

• No matter how we deal with big-time athletes, we turn to ourselves. Where we can test, we test. Particularly people whose jobs affect us all. We test the pilots. We test the muscle-bound cops who get so hopped up that they head into neighborhoods like rhinos, wanting to charge at anything that moves.

And where we can't test, or where we just can't stomach what this does to our freedoms, we start using some discipline , and getting some self-awareness.

Maybe we toss the Red Bull and talk with our kids before their next big tests. Maybe we ask ourselves why it's so important to make ourselves look 45 when we passed 45 two decades back.

Maybe we ask ourselves why we're so obsessed with athletes and drugs when we do some of the same things they do.

Then again, maybe we keep doing what we've been doing and fiddle around at the margins of change.

That way we can keep filling the seats and buying the Dodger Dogs and feeling smug as we boo Barry Bonds, comfortable in our hypocrisy.

Think about it.

[Snacks]

I am able to read it and I am def not signed up for he LA times website. They probably do that for links. Here it is:

Mike that is exactly what I have been saying but im a retarded words man and writer. This guy was exactly accurate on everything he said. I said something similar to a friend the other day who wrestles. He has taken many drugs to drop weight fast, thrown up, etc. I said thats no different and he says it is because its natural and everyone does it in wrestling because its a weight based sport. Well everyone does something in baseball. They get surgery to fix a problem that should have made them retire, they take supplements, steroids, pain killers, cortisone shit and more. Everything all athletes do is to enhance or prolong their careers.

I think its all because the media hates Barry b/c he wasnt all buddy buddy with them. Because he has never cared about what people say and this is their way to get him. People knew for years about steroids in baseball. I remember talking about this back in the late 80's and no one really cared. Some did but most didnt. The only reason people care now is they have been brainwashed by the media to care.

[Grendel_Kahn]

there has been rumors that Arod has done steroids. I heard it before and it was mentioned again tonight that in Jose Canseco's new book he mentions he has proof that Arod did juice. I dont believe it but it can be true. There are a lot of similarities to Bonds and Arond as far as being small (thin) and gaining a lot of muscle and size through the years. This will happen forever. All you need is one person to not like you and they can try to ruin your name. It happened to Bonds

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t261/lefty117/BarryBonds.jpg

Yes. One perspn did ruin Barry Bonds name.

Barry Bonds

[El Mudo]

Poor Mikey B... :glurps:



Still won the game tho...

[Snacks]

here some stats that surprised me (well not really)

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=txbondsfactfile&prov=st&type=lgns

some people say he was never a "power guy before 2001 (thats the season people suspect Bonds started juice 2001-2003) The link above had some stats that say different.

1993 - In his first season with the Giants, Bonds smashed 46 home runs en route to his second-straight MVP award. He was the first player in franchise history to hit more than 30 home runs in his first year with the team.

1994 - Was on pace for 52 home runs before the players' strike cut him off at 37 after 113 games. Earned his fifth straight Gold Glove

1996 - Hit 42 home runs and stole 40 bases

1999 - Was limited to 102 games as he battled elbow, groin and knee injuries but nevertheless kept his run of 30-plus homer seasons going with 34.


2000 - Hit 49 home runs but finished second in the MVP voting to teammate Jeff Kent

2004 - Hit 45 home runs, setting a record with 13 straight seasons of at least 30 homers

93 46 Hrs mmm
in 94 he was on pace for 52 mmm, a pitchers park and was before the allegations of steroid use.
13 straight years of 30 Hrs, mmm, Only guy to do that to. ( most of those years are prior to allegations of steroid use.)
96 42 Hrs
2000 49 hr's. Last year before he is alleged to have taken steroids.

So this guy was hitting 30+, 40 + and on pace for 50+ twice yet hes doesnt deserve this record because he only got it due to steroids? Nah He had one out of whack year and it was in 2001 and then went back to his normal 40 + HR's. Is it odd that he went from 49 to 73? A little but look at Maris he never hit more then 39 in a year, why all of the sudden did he go crazy and hit 61? Maybe he did something?

At least Barry has always been a power hitter. Maris hit 39 1 time and 33 another time. The rest of his career he hit in the mid 20's or in the teens. If you look at Maris' #'s he shouldnt even be in the hall. He has a career 275 HR a Batting AVG of 260, 850 rbis and 825 runs over 12 years. Those are not and never should have been hall of fame #'s He was only put in b/c of 1 year (1961)

Maris avg #'s per year. 260 avg, 23 Hr's, 70 Rbis, 68 runs, ob% 345 and slu% 476
Bonds avg #'s per year. 298 avg, 35 Hr's, 92 Rbis, 102 Runs, ob% 444 and slug% .607

BTW Babe only Avg 32 Hr's a year for his career.:huh::wink:

Those #'s dont lie. No one once questioned how Maris all of the sudden powered up (he had 2 good and 1 great HR season in a left handers dream stadium) Wonder if he took juice in the 1960 off season? It was around back then.

Now Im really not being to serious, except the part about Maris shouldnt be in the hall and hes only in because of 1 season and guys do sometimes have years that are unexplainable like Maris 61 and Bonds 73. But atleast bonds always had the #'s before an after.

[A.J.]

But atleast bonds always had the #'s before an after.

I think that's why a lot of people are angry with him: IF he did use perfromance enhancers, it was so necessary as he was already having a Hall of Fame career. And the reason he did use them (IF he did), according to that article in SI, is that he was jealous of the attention McGuire and Sosa were getting during their home run chase. Makes no sense to me.

I'm not sure if I think that Barry Bonds is a cheater, but I AM sure that he's a tremendously talented player who happens to be one of the biggest assholes to ever play the game. As impressive as his achievement is, I'm more interested in Ken Griffey Jr. trying to hit #600.

[Snacks]

I think that's why a lot of people are angry with him: IF he did use perfromance enhancers, it was so necessary as he was already having a Hall of Fame career. And the reason he did use them (IF he did), according to that article in SI, is that he was jealous of the attention McGuire and Sosa were getting during their home run chase. Makes no sense to me.

I'm not sure if I think that Barry Bonds is a cheater, but I AM sure that he's a tremendously talented player who happens to be one of the biggest assholes to ever play the game. As impressive as his achievement is, I'm more interested in Ken Griffey Jr. trying to hit #600.

I agree with you, he was an asshole, but I think thats because he never liked the media so he would be an asshole to them. That SI article is one of the many reasons Bonds has always said dont believe the media when it comes to him. I dont think he was jealous I think SI made that up. What proof do they have to this?

As for Griffey I look forward to him hitting 600. He should be on his way to 700. The injuries cost him at least 100 HR's. Another one of my all time Favs.