comic book deaths

[SHANEFROMGA]

are the deaths in todays comics done to make the universe in which the characters live in seem more real, or do you think the writers do it for the shock value?
examples :blue beetle or captain america

[ToLEEdo]

I think they are used as a lot of different plot devices. For example, Goliath was killed as a civil war turning point. Some are killed just for sales or the lack of creative stories. Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell) was a big story arc, possibly just trying to sell more books. I don't think we can say that it necessarily one way they are used now IMO.

[Ay Kay Forty2]

Yea, it seems that comic books use death as a turning point or just to mess with people. I mean, just recently, they killed off one of the Flashes. There seems like there is so many. This one used to be Impulse, then Kid Flash, then Flash because the Wally West guy was gone. Well, they killed off this guy (Bart Allen). I'm not really familiar with a lot of the Flash stuff.

On a side note, the newest issue of Wizard talks about the Top 50 Comic Book Deaths. Pretty interesting. Rorschach was like number 6.

[JustJon]

My problem with most comic book deaths is their lack of permanence.

Even Captain Marvel, Bucky and Jason Todd have been brought back.

[TheMojoPin]

My problem with most comic book deaths is their lack of permanence.

Even Captain Marvel, Bucky and Jason Todd have been brought back.

Wow, Captain Marv-ell is back? That bites. The graphic novel where they killed him off is still one of the btter comics I've ever read. Having this literally cosmic superhero die of something like cancer was really well done and poignant, especially when they emphasized how despite all of their powers and "super intelligence," nobody could ultimately keep him from dying. Bringing him back after such a great and meaningful send off is so weak and pointless.

Bucky coming back I was initially opposed to, but Brubaker has written it so damn brilliantly that I've happily gone along with it. His showing how Bucky was basically a commando with Cap in WW2 who did all the REALLY dirty work was a great twist.

Jason Todd being back REALLY sucks. I mean, he's essentially alive again because Superboy punched a wall REALLY fucking hard. On top of that, his death was one of the better twists in the Batman mythos. Yeah, hack writers have overused and hamfisted the sense of guilt and anger that it gave Batman, but it ultimately really drove home how his "war" can never really end. Compound that with how much better developed and likeable Tim Drake is as the third Robin, there's pretty much no point in bringing Todd back except for a cheap "shock." I mean, they guy was killed off largely in part to how unlikeable he was...he's a MUCH better character as a uniform in a glass case.

I think Elektra is alive again, right? Another terrible decision, especially since Frank Miller gave her such a great ending.

DC Comics has REALLY dropped the ball when it comes to bringing back dead characters. I know they were just jumping on the "revamp" craze in the 90's, but when they killed off Flash II (Barry Allen, and granted, that was in the 80's), Green Lantern, Starman and Green Arrow, they actually replaced them with good characters that were well developed and fun to read. Yeah, some of those characters are still around, but it really is a letdown that DC basically caved years after the fact to bring back some of these guys or "kill them off even more" just to make waves.

Yeah, I know it's business as usual in the comics world, but I wish every so often quality would win out more often than quantity.

[SHANEFROMGA]

jason todd is a good example of death for not sticking, i mean normal person (nonmetahuman) getting blown up. seemedhttp://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z18/monkeypoot/scan0002.jpg to be sticking then boom hi i'm back!

[EliSnow]

Yea, it seems that comic books use death as a turning point or just to mess with people. I mean, just recently, they killed off one of the Flashes. There seems like there is so many. This one used to be Impulse, then Kid Flash, then Flash because the Wally West guy was gone. Well, they killed off this guy (Bart Allen). I'm not really familiar with a lot of the Flash stuff.



I don't think Bart (i.e. the former Impulse/Kid Flash) was killed because they were trying to mess with people. I think they did it because sales sucked on the latest series, and they panicked and decided to bring Wally back as the Flash.

[EliSnow]

Wow, Captain Marv-ell is back? That bites. The graphic novel where they killed him off is still one of the btter comics I've ever read. Having this literally cosmic superhero die of something like cancer was really well done and poignant, especially when they emphasized how despite all of their powers and "super intelligence," nobody could ultimately keep him from dying. Bringing him back after such a great and meaningful send off is so weak and pointless.

They've pulled a "Barry Allen." Remember when Marv-ell would switch with Rick Jones in the Negative Zone? Well apparently, due to some event, during one of those switches when Marv-ell was hanging out in the negative zone, he was thrust forward in time to the Civil War. Essentially, Marvel is laying this as a temporary thing and that he will go back to his own time and die as before. Click Here (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Captain_Marvel_%28Mar-Vell%29#The_Return)

Bucky coming back I was initially opposed to, but Brubaker has written it so damn brilliantly that I've happily gone along with it. His showing how Bucky was basically a commando with Cap in WW2 who did all the REALLY dirty work was a great twist.

I agree 100%. Although that's not exactly how it went. He showed that after Bucky was thought to be killed in WW2, he wasn't and was found by the Russians. They brainwashed him, turned him into an assassin they used during the Cold War. They'd use him, and when a project was over, he'd go into suspended animation.

Jason Todd being back REALLY sucks. I mean, he's essentially alive again because Superboy punched a wall REALLY fucking hard. On top of that, his death was one of the better twists in the Batman mythos. Yeah, hack writers have overused and hamfisted the sense of guilt and anger that it gave Batman, but it ultimately really drove home how his "war" can never really end. Compound that with how much better developed and likeable Tim Drake is as the third Robin, there's pretty much no point in bringing Todd back except for a cheap "shock." I mean, they guy was killed off largely in part to how unlikeable he was...he's a MUCH better character as a uniform in a glass case.

Agreed.

I think Elektra is alive again, right? Another terrible decision, especially since Frank Miller gave her such a great ending.

Did Miller resurrect her himself? She was killed, the Hand kidnapped her, and tried to resurrect her. DD and Stone sought to stop them, somehow DD's love "purified" her soul, Stone used his lifeforce to resurrect her, and the last show showed her in white garb, climing the cliff to Stick's people.

DC Comics has REALLY dropped the ball when it comes to bringing back dead characters. I know they were just jumping on the "revamp" craze in the 90's, but when they killed off Flash II (Barry Allen, and granted, that was in the 80's), Green Lantern, Starman and Green Arrow, they actually replaced them with good characters that were well developed and fun to read. Yeah, some of those characters are still around, but it really is a letdown that DC basically caved years after the fact to bring back some of these guys or "kill them off even more" just to make waves.

Yeah, I know it's business as usual in the comics world, but I wish every so often quality would win out more often than quantity.

I agree here as well. I liked Kyle Raynor and Ollie's son as Green Arrow. But too many people wanted Ollie and Hal back.

Jack Knight was incredible, but he never died. He just went off to raise his son, which truthfully I thought was a great end for his time as Starman.

[TheMojoPin]

They've pulled a "Barry Allen." Remember when Marv-ell would switch with Rick Jones in the Negative Zone? Well apparently, due to some event, during one of those switches when Marv-ell was hanging out in the negative zone, he was thrust forward in time to the Civil War. Essentially, Marvel is laying this as a temporary thing and that he will go back to his own time and die as before. Click Here (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Captain_Marvel_%28Mar-Vell%29#The_Return)

OK, I hope they stick to that. It's not even like he was a character people were clamoring to see return.


I agree 100%. Although that's not exactly how it went. He showed that after Bucky was thought to be killed in WW2, he wasn't and was found by the Russians. They brainwashed him, turned him into an assassin they used during the Cold War. They'd use him, and when a project was over, he'd go into suspended animation.

I just think it's really a credit to how great a writer Brubaker is when he shatters one of the cardinal comic rules ("Bucky stays dead!") and makes it one of the best comic storylines in years, period.


Did Miller resurrect her himself? She was killed, the Hand kidnapped her, and tried to resurrect her. DD and Stone sought to stop them, somehow DD's love "purified" her soul, Stone used his lifeforce to resurrect her, and the last show showed her in white garb, climing the cliff to Stick's people.

Miller has always been kind of vague on the whole "is Elektra alive or not" deal...when you listen to him talk, whether she came back or not, he had told her story and considered her finished. I think that that has been proven based on how medicore and terrible her appearances have been since then.

I agree here as well. I liked Kyle Raynor and Ollie's son as Green Arrow. But too many people wanted Ollie and Hal back.

Ollie at least was an interesting character that I can see bringing back, but the Hal love I just never got...he was so boring and one dimensional. I thought making him the Spectre was an inspired choice and really wish they had stuck to it. I'm just glad they didn't take the easy way out and kill Kyle or Green Arrow, jr..

Jack Knight was incredible, but he never died. He just went off to raise his son, which truthfully I thought was a great end for his time as Starman.

Man, that was a such a great series. James Robinson really was an underrated and missed writer. He's off doing scriptwork in Hollywood these days, sadly, with no time for the funnybooks.

[EliSnow]

Man, that was a such a great series. James Robinson really was an underrated and missed writer. He's off doing scriptwork in Hollywood these days, sadly, with no time for the funnybooks.

Starman has to be one of the great series of all time. Jack Knight was such a great character, and the series covered in a great way family relationships with the Knights, the O'Dare's, and the Mist's family. I'm a sucker for those things, and Robinson did such a great job with it.

Also, the fact that the series ended like he wanted it to, and it wasn't taken over by someone else as happens with most series. I'm glad he's got ownership of the characters and that they can't use them without his permission.

[TheMojoPin]

Starman has to be one of the great series of all time. Jack Knight was such a great character, and the series covered in a great way family relationships with the Knights, the O'Dare's, and the Mist's family. I'm a sucker for those things, and Robinson did such a great job with it.

Also, the fact that the series ended like he wanted it to, and it wasn't taken over by someone else as happens with most series. I'm glad he's got ownership of the characters and that they can't use them without his permission.

OK, I guess that explains why we don't see them anymore. That's pretty impressive that he was able to do that.

[dereckfishboy]

My problem with most comic book deaths is their lack of permanence.

Even Captain Marvel, Bucky and Jason Todd have been brought back.

Depends on the character... I'm sure Tinkerer and Jack-o-Lantern have probably been cacked off for good.... First Tier guys like Cap, I don't buy for even a second, but characters that are a decade or two past their prime I think we can believe.... The current Eddie Brock cancer storyline has me interested... since the Venom symbiote seems firmly tied up with Mac Gargan and the Thunderbolts, I almost don't see an alternative to the death of what is an essential part of one of the most popular comic book characters of the last decade and a half....

[dereckfishboy]

BTW, I just want to say the the fact that Norman Osborne is alive and the leader of the New Thunderbolts makes me sick...

[EliSnow]

OK, I guess that explains why we don't see them anymore. That's pretty impressive that he was able to do that.

I didn't know either until I read the following on Wikipedia:

James Robinson currently has a deal with DC Comics enumerating that they cannot use his Starman characters without his permission, which is why Jack has appeared very little since the end of his series. (Neil Gaiman has the same creative control over Sandman (Vertigo).

It's not ownership rights, really, but it is a good deal (assuming wikipedia got it right.)

[JustJon]

That explains why Jack was written out of JSA years ago and gave the staff to Stargirl

[CofyCrakCocaine]

BTW, I just want to say the the fact that Norman Osborne is alive and the leader of the New Thunderbolts makes me sick...

Norman was brought back because of last-minute Marvel decision making in response to massive fan reaction to the ultra-fucked Clone storyline. Once I saw him make a comeback, I stopped reading comics, essentially.

[TheMojoPin]

Norman was brought back because of last-minute Marvel decision making in response to massive fan reaction to the ultra-fucked Clone storyline. Once I saw him make a comeback, I stopped reading comics, essentially.

Yeah, that was the moment that got me to swear off buying monthlies for good. I get trades left and right, but ever since that issue (Spider-Man #75, I think), I haven't bought any. I was willing to ride out that whole stupid storyline until Norman fucking showed up. Way to ruin one of the greatest comic stories of all time...his death right after Gwen's, and ultimately how it caused the death of his son are some of the greatest Spider-Man stories, and Marvel shat all over them.

[FMJeff]

I think it can go both ways. Never in this history of comic books did I despise a death/resurrection story as I did the death of Superman. What a fucking ridiculous ploy to sell the same issue with multiple cover styles spewing like five different story arcs.

Then you have the death of Sue Dibny in Identity Crisis which was such an amazing turn of events.

[TheMojoPin]

I think it can go both ways. Never in this history of comic books did I despise a death/resurrection story as I did the death of Superman. What a fucking ridiculous ploy to sell the same issue with multiple cover styles spewing like five different story arcs.

Then you have the death of Sue Dibny in Identity Crisis which was such an amazing turn of events.

I gotta disagree. I thought the ultimate revelation around her death wasn't all that great and pretty anti-climatic for what had been up until then a really good story. Ultimately, it really pissed me off to see that 80's "lighthearted" JLA get ripped to shreds just for the sake of shocking readers. Sue dead, Ralph messed up, Max Lord evil and dead, Skeets actually evil, Blue Beetle Dead, Fire with Checkmate...man, bad times.

[EliSnow]

I gotta disagree. I thought the ultimate revelation around her death wasn't all that great and pretty anti-climatic for what had been up until then a really good story. Ultimately, it really pissed me off to see that 80's "lighthearted" JLA get ripped to shreds just for the sake of shocking readers. Sue dead, Ralph messed up, Max Lord evil and dead, Skeets actually evil, Blue Beetle Dead, Fire with Checkmate...man, bad times.

Yeah, that group of the JLA haven't been treated well. Althought Booster seems to be having a revival, and Skeets really wasn't evil. We'll see it back with Booster.

[JustJon]

Norman was brought back because of last-minute Marvel decision making in response to massive fan reaction to the ultra-fucked Clone storyline. Once I saw him make a comeback, I stopped reading comics, essentially.

The whole clone thing was a clusterfuck from the beginning. I'm sure Mojo has read The Life of Reilly, but I would recommend googling and checking it out. It's a 34 part series about the behind the scenes story of the clone saga.

And I agree, the end was sorta anti-climactic. There was such a great build-up, but the ending fell a bit short.

[FMJeff]

I'm sure Mojo has read The Life of Reilly

I don't even know who the fucking cunt is, but I have nothing against her.

[TheMojoPin]

The whole clone thing was a clusterfuck from the beginning. I'm sure Mojo has read The Life of Reilly, but I would recommend googling and checking it out. It's a 34 part series about the behind the scenes story of the clone saga.

And I agree, the end was sorta anti-climactic. There was such a great build-up, but the ending fell a bit short.

Life of Reilly is a great, great piece. REALLY long, but well wroth the read.

Click here to check it out. (http://www.newcomicreviews.com/GHM/specials/LifeOfReilly/)

It's frustrating because reading that and when I was originally reading the story as it was coming out, it could have been salvaged as a decent story at least half a dozen different ways, but they just burying themselves in crap the further they went.

[AnnoyedGrunt]

Even if it was in the middle of the aformentioned Clone Saga, Aunt May's death was briliantly done. No shocking murder by a supervillian, just an emotional goodbye that was made all the worse by the fact she had just revealed that she knew Peter was Spider-man for years a few days earlier. That was one of the few times I teared up reading a comic.

And of course a couple years later the ruined it all by bringing her back and revealing that the May who died was just an actress. Fuck that. I would have rather she had been brought back by magic or something like that. At least that way her death would have still been real, but just temporary rather than a lie.

[JustJon]

Even if it was in the middle of the aformentioned Clone Saga, Aunt May's death was briliantly done. No shocking murder by a supervillian, just an emotional goodbye that was made all the worse by the fact she had just revealed that she knew Peter was Spider-man for years a few days earlier. That was one of the few times I teared up reading a comic.

And of course a couple years later the ruined it all by bringing her back and revealing that the May who died was just an actress. Fuck that. I would have rather she had been brought back by magic or something like that. At least that way her death would have still been real, but just temporary rather than a lie.

I like Spidey and read it sporadically, but I had to read the death of Aunt May, and it was a beautifully done story. And I don't think they even waited a couple years before they revealed it was Mysterio fucking with him.

Then again, if the current rumors of the Spidey storylines is true, the return of Aunt May will be nothing.

[Ay Kay Forty2]

I don't think Bart (i.e. the former Impulse/Kid Flash) was killed because they were trying to mess with people. I think they did it because sales sucked on the latest series, and they panicked and decided to bring Wally back as the Flash.

Actually, I think I may retract my previous statement. I heard the same thing when I was at a comic book store and the owner was talking to a kid about the Flash. I'm no expert on the Flash, but after Infinite Crisis, they had Bart Allen as the Flash as "Flash: Fastest Man Alive". and the guy at the comic store and you said sales were going kinda ehhhh, they decided to go back to the regular Flash comic which continues right up until the point of Infinite Crisis.

Now, I'm no big incredible fan of Flash but when Impulse first debuted, I picked up the first 7 isssue, mine you, I was a kid. The death seemed kinda weird because at 1995-1996 I was big into comics and right now, I'm returning to regularly buying comic books. But, I mean, there are a lot of different Flashes out there. From Jay Garrick, to the Original ( i guess) Barry Allen, to Wally West, and then to the now Deseased Bart Allen.

Also, if anyone is reluctant about the whole Infinite Crisis stuff, it's good to invest in the actual novel that's writing by Greg Cox. It's basically like the Knightfall or No Man's Land novels that were written about Batman. Comics adapted at novels. After reading the book, i kinda wanta get the hardcover Infinite Crisis book for $25. I got the first two issues for 2 bucks at a local comic show. While I got the novel for 15 bucks.

[TheMojoPin]

I like Spidey and read it sporadically, but I had to read the death of Aunt May, and it was a beautifully done story. And I don't think they even waited a couple years before they revealed it was Mysterio fucking with him.

Then again, if the current rumors of the Spidey storylines is true, the return of Aunt May will be nothing.

Mysterio? It was all Norman Osborne. Mysterio was too busy inexplicably blowing his brains out in Kevin Smith's unimpressive run on Daredevil.

But I agree, Amzing Spider-Man #400, when Aunt May "died," is flat out one of the best Spidey stories ever. Not only was it huge for all the obvious reasons, but it especially hit home because of all the clone stuff...yeah, the storyline was too huge and out of control, but Ben Reilly was a really likeable character, especially in contrast to Peter at the time (mainly because they were planning on permanently switiching the two). How brutal was it that he thought he was the real Peter and he couldn't be there when Aunt May died? He just had to sit on the roof and listen. That was heartbreaking.

[buzzard]

Mysterio? It was all Norman Osborne. Mysterio was too busy inexplicably blowing his brains out in Kevin Smith's unimpressive run on Daredevil.

But I agree, Amzing Spider-Man #400, when Aunt May "died," is flat out one of the best Spidey stories ever. Not only was it huge for all the obvious reasons, but it especially hit home because of all the clone stuff...yeah, the storyline was too huge and out of control, but Ben Reilly was a really likeable character, especially in contrast to Peter at the time (mainly because they were planning on permanently switiching the two). How brutal was it that he thought he was the real Peter and he couldn't be there when Aunt May died? He just had to sit on the roof and listen. That was heartbreaking. Gwen Stacy's death,Capt.Stacy's & the Green Goblin's were works of art that(in my opinion) could only have been written in comics..the movies get to tied up in effects,the comics gave us words to enhance the imagination.

[EliSnow]

Probably the best "death" with the worst resurrection was Jean Grey's. The Dark Phoenix saga was one of the best comic stories of all time in large part because Jean Grey sacrificed herself at the end. Bringing her back hurt that big time, and they've been dealing with that mistake ever since with Jean having died, resurrected and died again.

[JustJon]

Probably the best "death" with the worst resurrection was Jean Grey's. The Dark Phoenix saga was one of the best comic stories of all time in large part because Jean Grey sacrificed herself at the end. Bringing her back hurt that big time, and they've been dealing with that mistake ever since with Jean having died, resurrected and died again.



Yes, and they are keeping her dead... for now... No matter how much I hate the Emma Frost/Scott Summers relationship.

Mysterio? It was all Norman Osborne. Mysterio was too busy inexplicably blowing his brains out in Kevin Smith's unimpressive run on Daredevil.


Oops, remembered it wrong. But thanks to editorial fuckups, Mysterio wasn't dead. He became cancer-free and resurrected a month later in a Spidey book.

[EliSnow]

Just read some big news on Newsarama concerning what's going to happen on a DC character's resurrection:

Story link with spoiler (http://www.newsarama.com/comics/080724-comiccon-flash-rebirth.html) Barry Allen's resurrection will be permanent. And Geoff Johns and Evan Scrivener who handled Hal Jordan's return are handling this as well.

[TheMojoPin]

Awful.

[JustJon]

lame.