Stealing Wireless

[Ritalin]

So the cool thing about this new laptop I got - my first, so the whole portability thing is new to me - is that it comes with Airport. Now, I'm using Airport to steal one of my neighbor's wireless internet. I don't have to - I could plug in to my own cable modem - but I've just been lazy.

Then I'm in ITunes, and I see someone's complete playlist pop up as shared music. I can't drag it onto my hard drive, but I can listen to anything he/she owns. Pretty cool, and I assume he/she can listen to anything I own, and I'm cool with that.

But, now I'm paranoid. What ELSE can he/she access on my machine? Not that I have anything that I haven't backed up, and nothing too personal, but still, I want to know the level of security I have.

AND (I'm just gonna come clean here) can they see where I'm surfing when I'm using their wireless connection? It's kind of like the digital equivalent of finding someone's porn stash, you know what I mean?

So, what's my exposure here? Should I just shut off Airport, and stop scamming other people's bandwidth? Do I need to worry about security? Am I going to know who the victim is when I see them in the elevator and they look at me funny and blush?

Edit: This was my 1000th post. Some landmark. Me skulking around, worried about porn. Such a loser.

[Wallower]

Theoretically the owner could be monitoring everything that goes through their wireless router, using it as a "honeypot" to catch passwords and other info. It's a pretty safe bet that people who don't secure their wireless networks don't have the skill or inclination to do it, but it is possible. For example, I was scamming someone's wireless on vacation a couple of weeks ago and one of my accounts was compromised. I can't be sure it was from the wireless network, but it is possible.

That situation aside, in most cases the only thing accessible to a wireless peer will be your shared folders and vice versa. As long as you keep your personal firewall up you'll be fine. Just don't share anything you don't want to be seen. Also, since you're on a Mac you're less of a target for the majority of users out there.

[Nothing Sound]

I've been tapping in to my neighbors wireless for years.
I usually do it when I'm downloading questionable material.

[fohat]

Just remember kids, leaching Wifi is not "stealing", it's borrowing without asking first.

[KnoxHarrington]

My wireless router is locked down tight. I don't want some bastard downloading kiddie pics or sending threatening e-mails to the President from my IP address.

Seriously, it's idiotic that the default setting for wireless networking is unsecured.

[oh_kee_pa]

i fully agree w/ the stealing wireless... just dont break the law w/ it... no harm = no foul

[Nothing Sound]

just dont break the law w/ it....

Then why would I bother stealing it?

[oh_kee_pa]

Then why would I bother stealing it?

to save 50 bucks a month?

[Nothing Sound]

to save 50 bucks a month?

I don't mind paying for my own internet access, I'm not that cheap.
I only "borrow" my neighbors when I need to download a few movies or CD's.
The ISP up here monitors torrent activity and will suspend your account if they suspect you of doing illegal activity.

[docgoblin]

I have a wireless network in my home with encryption, which stops outside intruders. Most people never set up their security encryption, causing people to access their network from nearby. I brought my laptop to my parent's house last Thankgiving so my daughter could access her games, and as soon as I fired up the computer it picked up the neighbor's wireless network... Like Ronny says, most folks are rubes... That may be even more true in the computer age.

[empulse]

I don't mind paying for my own internet access, I'm not that cheap.
I only "borrow" my neighbors when I need to download a few movies or CD's.
The ISP up here monitors torrent activity and will suspend your account if they suspect you of doing illegal activity.

Where do you live? Nazi Germany?

[Death Metal Moe]

I fucking hate people who steal internet. It's the fucking scummiest thing you can do in the computer world.

I understand it's their responsibility to encrypt their signal, but you know there's lots of people who got a wireless router and don't even know the signal is on.

Scummy.

[sailor]

I fucking hate people who steal internet. It's the fucking scummiest thing you can do in the computer world.

I understand it's their responsibility to encrypt their signal, but you know there's lots of people who got a wireless router and don't even know the signal is on.

Scummy.

if you lived in suburbia and knew your neighbor kept his doors unlocked would you go in and help yourself to a glass of water?

[Nothing Sound]

I don't mind paying for my own internet access, I'm not that cheap.
I only "borrow" my neighbors when I need to download a few movies or CD's.
The ISP up here monitors torrent activity and will suspend your account if they suspect you of doing illegal activity.

Where do you live? Nazi Germany?

Most ISP's monitor internet activity nowadays.
Most people just aren't aware of it.

[Nothing Sound]

I fucking hate people who steal internet. It's the fucking scummiest thing you can do in the computer world.


It's not stealing.
All you're doing is receiving a radio frequency that is being broadcast out in to the open.
That is completely legal.

[Ritalin]

I fucking hate people who steal internet. It's the fucking scummiest thing you can do in the computer world.

I understand it's their responsibility to encrypt their signal, but you know there's lots of people who got a wireless router and don't even know the signal is on.

Scummy.

Uh oh. Death Metal Moe wrath.

Actually, I sort of agree, and it's not like I don't pay for my own connection. I'm just too lazy to plug in, and since I don't have to, I don't.

Does it make it any better that whoever it is can listen to my Itunes library whenever they want to? Plus, I went into their shared folder, and there's some Garageband files in there. It must be a dude, right? Chicks don't make Garage Band files, normally.

I was thinking of copying one, tweaking it, and putting it back in his shared folder.

(I'd save the original version. I'm not evil)

[Death Metal Moe]

It's not stealing.
All you're doing is receiving a radio frequency that is being broadcast out in to the open.
That is completely legal.

It's using something you didn't pay for without their permission. Don't get fucking cute. You know it's theft.

[Death Metal Moe]

Uh oh. Death Metal Moe wrath.

Actually, I sort of agree, and it's not like I don't pay for my own connection. I'm just too lazy to plug in, and since I don't have to, I don't.

Does it make it any better that whoever it is can listen to my Itunes library whenever they want to? Plus, I went into their shared folder, and there's some Garageband files in there. It must be a dude, right? Chicks don't make Garage Band files, normally.

I was thinking of copying one, tweaking it, and putting it back in his shared folder.

(I'd save the original version. I'm not evil)

No wrath, you started a thread, I dropped in my opinion.

And you have your own connection and choose to use someone elses? For your own speed, why not use yours? You know you're gonna get a stronger signal at your own house, and the hardwire is gonna be the sure thing.

If you don't think it's that big a deal stealing, think about your own signal clarity and speed.

[underdog]

And you have your own connection and choose to use someone elses? For your own speed, why not use yours? You know you're gonna get a stronger signal at your own house, and the hardwire is gonna be the sure thing.

My neighbor has comcast broadband and leave their connection unsecured. I use the dedicated T1 that my building has. Every once in a while, mine will go out, so I just jump to my neighbor' s. Its a nice backup plan.

[Nothing Sound]

It's using something you didn't pay for without their permission. Don't get fucking cute. You know it's theft.

Don't give a fuck.
You broadcast it, I take it and download illegal shit with it.

[Death Metal Moe]

My neighbor has comcast broadband and leave their connection unsecured. I use the dedicated T1 that my building has. Every once in a while, mine will go out, so I just jump to my neighbor' s. Its a nice backup plan.

Ok I'll be honest. I would do that too most likely. The need to get online would overtake my morals.

But you don't do it a majority of the time so it's not as bad.

[Death Metal Moe]

Don't give a fuck.
You broadcast it, I take it and download illegal shit with it.

I didn't say you should care, you said it wasn't stealing, and you said "you don't care" because you know it's theft.

I said initially that part of the blame lies with the person who's signal it is. They need to know how to turn on the encryption to make sure people can't steal it.

But don't act like fucking Robin Hood or some shit, like there's an honor to it. It's theft, period.

[Nothing Sound]

I didn't say you should care, you said it wasn't stealing, and you said "you don't care" because you know it's theft.

I said initially that part of the blame lies with the person who's signal it is. They need to know how to turn on the encryption to make sure people can't steal it.

But don't act like fucking Robin Hood or some shit, like there's an honor to it. It's theft, period.


When I said "Don't give a fuck" I meant that I don't give a fuck what you think.
I still say it's not stealing. It's a radio frequency being broadcast and I receive it.

[Death Metal Moe]

When I said "Don't give a fuck" I meant that I don't give a fuck what you think.
I still say it's not stealing. It's a radio frequency being broadcast and I receive it.

Well I don't care what you think of my opinion. When you use something that you didn't pay for without the consent of the person it belongs to, it amounts to theft. I don't give 2 fucks WHAT it is. HBO is a signal that if you receive without their consent they can sue you for, no? Music is a sound wave that if you are caught downloading you can get sued for.

The physical state of what you are stealing doesn't matter. You HONESTLY feel that because you're stealing an electronic impulse its not theft. I think you're playing, you're not that dumb.

[Nothing Sound]

Music is a sound wave that if you are caught downloading you can get sued for.

You must mean my neighbor because he's the one that would get caught, not me.

[Death Metal Moe]

OK fine, keep playing games. I'm not trying to stop you from doing something you don't feel is wrong, my signal is encrypted so I'm fine.

Just stop fooling yourself that you're not a thief. When you take something you didn't pay for you are a thief.

[fohat]

I don't think it is correct to call it "stealing" when you get right down to it. Yes, when you leach WiFi you are using something you have not paid for. What if the city pays for it? What if my neighbor knows people around them can't afford access, so he/she leaves it open on purpose?

This is why you can't make it illegal in my opinion. Manuafcturers of broadband routers would have to be forced to sell a box which already has encryption enabled which means they have to pay more people to support the product because it's been made harder to use.

Just a couple random thoughts. As Moe said, there are times when using someone else's WiFi isn't a big deal. There are other times when it becomes a big deal for almost no reason and ruins someone's life. (http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/23/1551227)

[Death Metal Moe]

I don't think it is correct to call it "stealing" when you get right down to it. Yes, when you leach WiFi you are using something you have not paid for. What if the city pays for it? What if my neighbor knows people around them can't afford access, so he/she leaves it open on purpose?

This is why you can't make it illegal in my opinion. Manuafcturers of broadband routers would have to be forced to sell a box which already has encryption enabled which means they have to pay more people to support the product because it's been made harder to use.

Just a couple random thoughts. As Moe said, there are times when using someone else's WiFi isn't a big deal. There are other times when it becomes a big deal for almost no reason and ruins someone's life. (http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/23/1551227)


If a neighbor left his signal open for others in the area without internet, that would probably mean he knew there were people wirelessly connecting to him or he wouldn't even bother to do that. Bad move but his/her choice.

And just to let you know, I got a new router from Verizon and it had some sort of encryption on the bottom of it from the factory. Maybe this is the new way.

[Nothing Sound]

There are other times when it becomes a big deal for almost no reason and ruins someone's life. (http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/23/1551227)

There are some pretty good comments for and against, underneath that article.

[fohat]

And just to let you know, I got a new router from Verizon and it had some sort of encryption on the bottom of it from the factory. Maybe this is the new way.

That's interesting, they did not used to ship them like that (as of last year anyway). I'd be curious to find out how strong the default encryption is. Did it force you to create a password for wifi while you were setting it up?

[IMSlacker]

That's interesting, they did not used to ship them like that (as of last year anyway). I'd be curious to find out how strong the default encryption is. Did it force you to create a password for wifi while you were setting it up?

I set up my parents' new modem/router a few months ago (sbc I think) and it had encription turned on by default. SBC issued them a password that you could change if you wanted.

[DolaMight]

Well I don't care what you think of my opinion. When you use something that you didn't pay for without the consent of the person it belongs to, it amounts to theft. I don't give 2 fucks WHAT it is. HBO is a signal that if you receive without their consent they can sue you for, no? Music is a sound wave that if you are caught downloading you can get sued for.

The physical state of what you are stealing doesn't matter. You HONESTLY feel that because you're stealing an electronic impulse its not theft. I think you're playing, you're not that dumb.

Hey I agree, I hate when people try to lie to themselves about what their doin. I have no problem with people doin those sorta illegal things, it's none of my business. Just admit what you're doin.

When some people steal satellite they say they are "testing", they honestly believe it's legal and justify this to themselves because they can upload a file into a FTA reciever and watch free-TV.

Example, myself when talkin to some non-techincal person in the office about a movie I watched I always say i pirated or Pepper Hicks'd it, not simly downloaded. Also when talkin about the big fight on mondays I always say I stold it.

I've taken the time to develop the know how to do these things, the average person can't do these things. I don't brag nor am I proud but the risks are low and that's why I do it. I know it's illegal, and I choose to do it. Same goes for borrowing WiFi. It's easy, that's why you do it.

Arrrrrg....

[KnoxHarrington]

The thing is, as mentioned above, with the twin threat of RIAA and/or MPAA lawsuits out there, ISPs are indeed monitoring and watching for activity that looks like file sharing. So, increasingly, there are consequences and penalties that can befall someone you leech your "free" internet off of, especially if you're doing something like file sharing using that connection.

It's not harmless. Someone could get in deep shit because you're too cheap to pay for an ISP.

Look, anyone who leaves their router open and unprotected is a dumbass. That's very true. But part of the whole compact of society is that you don't do something just because you can.

[Ritalin]

Music is a sound wave that if you are caught downloading you can get sued for.

If I could record William Burroughs saying that out loud, I could have a Laurie Anderson song.

And yes, DMM, you are right, of course. It IS stealing, but it's a victimless crime, like prostitution or mail fraud.

[Ritalin]

Alright, so listen. Let's get down to brass tacks here, because what I thought was a harmless silly thing is turning into something completely different.

I didn't set out to intentionally steal someone's property. I just bought this laptop recently, I live in a 6 story coop building, and Airport was left on from when I was using Wifi at LaGuardia. When I came home and turned this MacBook on, it automatically connected. I noticed it, and just kept using it.

I acknowledge that what I am doing is theft - in my mind theft with a small "t", but still stealing. I am paying for my own internet connection, so it's not out of personal gain, although I suppose I am saving myself the expense of buying my own wireless router. I'm not downloading anything illegal (seriously, I make my living off copyright and don't violate anyone else's).

So here' the question: is this a classroom debate in ethics and morality, or am I doing any literal damage to my good neighbor? Am I slowing down his connection? Am I in any way affecting his online access?

[topless_mike]

for pr0n and personal stuff, i use my desktop with my own access.
if i just want to surf something real quick, i use my laptop and jump onto somebody else's signal, since i dont own a wireless router (yet...).
i would never use scumbag somebody by doing illegal stuff or questionable stuff on their signal.

[topless_mike]

but it's a victimless crime, like prostitution or mail fraud.

i got scumbagged out of $300 from an ebay auction gone bad. (mail fraud)

i'm not a victim?

[fohat]

So here' the question: is this a classroom debate in ethics and morality, or am I doing any literal damage to my good neighbor? Am I slowing down his connection? Am I in any way affecting his online access?

If you were using a file sharing program like bittorrent or limewire, then you'd probably be slowing down the connection a good bit.

In general, brief downloads and web page views are not going to have much of an impact on a broadband connection.

[drjoek]

I've been tapping my neighbor for years.
I usually do it when Im lonely.


Fixed it for ya

[Ritalin]

i got scumbagged out of $300 from an ebay auction gone bad. (mail fraud)

i'm not a victim?

I was just kidding about the mail fraud. I knew that line wasn't going to work, but I couldn't come up with something else.

How about this: it's a victimless crime, like prostitution or sodomy.

eh?

[Death Metal Moe]

I was just kidding about the mail fraud. I knew that line wasn't going to work, but I couldn't come up with something else.

How about this: it's a victimless crime, like prostitution or sodomy.

eh?

In the case of sodomy, everyone wins. Even if they don't know it or feel it at the time, everyone's a winner. Trust me. :wink:

[Nothing Sound]

It's not harmless. Someone could get in deep shit because you're too cheap to pay for an ISP.


It's not that I'm too cheap to pay for my own ISP, I have that, wireless and all.
I just choose to download my "questionable" stuff through my neighbors unsecured WiFi.
I really don't give a fuck if he gets in deep shit from it. He should have thought of that before he left his connection open to the world.

[Ritalin]

In the case of sodomy, everyone wins. Even if they don't know it or feel it at the time, everyone's a winner. Trust me. :wink:

Uh, hello. Moe's mod quote:

Sodomy: Everyone's a winner.

I like it.

(The quote. Not sodomy)

(I'm pretty sure)