National Health Care Debate

[AgnosticJihad]

I've been reading this book titled "The Case for the Welfare State". Basically it compares and contrasts the "welfare" systems of the U.S., U.K., and Sweden. While I was previously inclined to prefer the welfare systems of western Europe over that of our own, this book is really making me want to see something like the systems they use over there esteblished here. I know that's not very likely and a lot of you will disagree with me on this, but allow me to quote something from the book, concerning the U.K.'s health care system:

"The National Health Service, in terms of size, expenditure, and social impact, is the largest and most important undertaking of the central government, encompassing the services of over 60,000 doctors and 280,000 nurses, spending close to 6% of total national income, and providing an essential, and usually free, service to over 95% of the population. About 85% of the cost comes from general taxation revenues, 10% from "insurance" contributions (in effect a flat-rate tax), and 5% from special charges to individuals.
Any foreign visitor-particularly one from the United States-who ahppens to fall ill or have an accident must be impressed by the British system. No demand for pre-payment greet one at the hospital door; no"family doctor" hovers by the hospital bed in order to collect a later fee; no agonizing choices arise over whether one is actually so sick that seeing a doctor is worth the financial expense. In addition to these achievements, the National Health Service has sponsored important structural changes. The old duality between public and private hospitals has been ended; money has been provided for new construction; planning the spatioal distribution of physicians has been undertaken; and special, less "popular" services (especially mental hospitals) have been incorporated within a unified system.
Furthermore, all this has been accomplished wtihout exorbitant costs, coercion, "labor direction", or other evils hypothesized by critics at the time of the establishment of the service. As a percentage of gross national product, health expenditures are below those found in most other advanced Western countries, including the U.S. Administrative costs are about 2.5% of expenditures, 1/4 of the estimated total in countries such as Sweden with insurance-based health services. Only 2% of physicians have administrative work as thier primary activity compared with 9% in Sweden and 7% in the U.S. And although comparative health statistics are notoriously difficult to handel, most indicators place Britain slightly ahead of the U.S. and distinctly behind Sweden."

Now, this book is 30 years ago, so obviously somethings have likely changed. However, I still like th idea of everyone having access to health care. I also like other aspects of European welfare systems, like how some of them take steps to ensure that no one ever falls below a certain standard of living by providing extensive unemployemnt payments and other such programs. I really believe this explains why the crime problem in European countries is not what it is here. People never reach the point of desperation that they feel the need to go rob someone just to survive (of course there are still those who will commit crimes, but it sure cuts down on crime). I also like how some countries focus exclusively on rehabilitating drug addicts instead of throwing them in prison.

I could go on about this for a while, but need to log off and get back to work. I am curious to see what everyone else thinks. Please respond.

P.S. And before anyone calls me a Communist or something, allow me to make a pre-emptive strike: The Cold War is over and Communism is dead, so you can stop with that nonsense. Besides, we don't call people we disagree with Communists anymore; the appropriate term is Terrorist.

[HBox]

As much as I despise our current system of health care in this country if we do totally reorganize the way we receive health care we could do a ton better than Britain's system. It has a ton of problems and I don't think many British are happy with it today. Is it better than our current system? Hard to say. Probably not to anyone who already has insurance.

But we could do much better is the point.

[Jujubees2]

The cold hard fact is that most of the people who have major financial problems have them because they become overwhelmed with medical debt. Imagine if you don't have health insurance (or even if you do) and are hospitalized for any length of time. The hospital needs to be paid in order to stay in business.

This is not to mention that the rich have much more available to them in the form of medical care than the poor. I'm sorry, but your income level should not affect the type pf health care you receive.

I will now get down off my soapbox.

http://www.webmd.com/content/article/100/105540.htm

[S0S]

Now, this book is 30 years ago, so obviously somethings have likely changed. However, I still like th idea of everyone having access to health care. I also like other aspects of European welfare systems, like how some of them take steps to ensure that no one ever falls below a certain standard of living by providing extensive unemployemnt payments and other such programs.
GOVERNMENT GOOD! MUST TAKE GOVERNMENT DOLE! TAX EVERYONE! I WANT TO LIVE IN AN UNFINISTHED HOUSE AND MAKE CHAIRS!

Competition is good.

I really believe this explains why the crime problem in European countries is not what it is here. People never reach the point of desperation that they feel the need to go rob someone just to survive (of course there are still those who will commit crimes, but it sure cuts down on crime).
I really believe it is the education system which cares more about keeping teachers jobs than teaching students.

I also like how some countries focus exclusively on rehabilitating drug addicts instead of throwing them in prison.
Threw that in there?

I could go on about this for a while, but need to log off and get back to work. I am curious to see what everyone else thinks. Please respond.
k

P.S. And before anyone calls me a Communist or something, allow me to make a pre-emptive strike: The Cold War is over and Communism is dead, so you can stop with that nonsense. Besides, we don't call people we disagree with Communists anymore; the appropriate term is Terrorist.

No, the appropriate term is Socialist.

[HBox]

GOVERNMENT GOOD! MUST TAKE GOVERNMENT DOLE! TAX EVERYONE! I WANT TO LIVE IN AN UNFINISTHED HOUSE AND MAKE CHAIRS!

Competition is good.

Now that we've dispensed with the ideological cliches do you have anything relevant to the topic at hand?

[MrPink]

subsidiezed healthcare is noy economically dfeasible. susidizing healthcare creates a price ceilign which in turn creates shortages. how about eveyrvbody be responsible for their own healhtcare.

[AgnosticJihad]

GOVERNMENT GOOD! MUST TAKE GOVERNMENT DOLE! TAX EVERYONE! I WANT TO LIVE IN AN UNFINISTHED HOUSE AND MAKE CHAIRS!

1)Competition is good.

2)I really believe it is the education system which cares more about keeping teachers jobs than teaching students.


3)Threw that in there?


k



4)No, the appropriate term is Socialist.

1) I never said competition was bad, I just brought up an alternative to our current health care system which is ripe with flaws.
2) Good point, but try backing it up with why you think this is our education system's goal. Also, this really has nothing to do with health care.
3) yup. It doesn't make much sense to throw addicts in prison. We don't throw alcoholics in prison (unless they repeatedly put the lives of others at risk by driving drunk over and over), nor do we throw smokers in prison , nor do we throw caffiene-drinkers in prison.
4) Thank you for seeing the distinction.

Thanks for contributing nothing of relevance to the conversation.

[Jujubees2]

subsidiezed healthcare is noy economically dfeasible. susidizing healthcare creates a price ceilign which in turn creates shortages. how about eveyrvbody be responsible for their own healhtcare.

Want to tell me how someone making minimum wage (or slightly higher) can afford to take care of their own healthcare? They can barely put food on the table.

Healthcare shouldn't be a luxury. It's a necessity.

[AgnosticJihad]

As much as I despise our current system of health care in this country if we do totally reorganize the way we receive health care we could do a ton better than Britain's system. It has a ton of problems and I don't think many British are happy with it today. Is it better than our current system? Hard to say. Probably not to anyone who already has insurance.

But we could do much better is the point.

You are correct about Britain's system. I would've quoted the book concerning Sweden's system as well, but I haven't read that far in the book. And yes, doing much better is the reason I brought up the topic. And we could do a ton better than Britain; one way would be to look at the problems they've had and the mistakes they've made and make sure we avoid them. Or just use another model. I'm not necessarily endorsing the U.K.'s system, just citing it as a possible alternative.

[AgnosticJihad]

subsidiezed healthcare is noy economically dfeasible. susidizing healthcare creates a price ceilign which in turn creates shortages. how about eveyrvbody be responsible for their own healhtcare.

If by leaving everyone responsible for thier own healthcare system you mean doing away with partially employer-funded group health plans, that's kind of assinine. I f we did that no one would have health care except the VERY wealthy, and life expectancy would plummit to third-world levels (and we already have the lowest in the first world).

[MrPink]

Want to tell me how someone making minimum wage (or slightly higher) can afford to take care of their own healthcare? They can barely put food on the table.

Healthcare shouldn't be a luxury. It's a necessity.

get a new job

[HBox]

get a new job

I sincerely hope you never find out how incredibly misinformed and ignorant you are about our current system. I really do.

[HBox]

subsidiezed healthcare is noy economically dfeasible. susidizing healthcare creates a price ceilign which in turn creates shortages. how about eveyrvbody be responsible for their own healhtcare.

No, this current system is not economically feasible. We spend more money on health care per person (twice the amount of the next closest nation) and we can't even cover every single person in this country. And we don't have the best life expectancy, or infant mortality or patient satisfaction. We're not even close to the top. All that for the truckloads of money we pour into health care every single year.

Shortages? There are millions of people who would love to be on a waiting list because as of right now they will never be able to afford the tests, treatments or procedures they need. Don't fool yourself.

[epo]

There's about a billion things wrong with our healthcare system here are a few of them:


Everyone should have coverage.
The current fiscal system does not work. Medicare type programs don't pay the bills for the provider network, so the government can't push that angle. If they gave everybody Medicare, the hospital systems would go out of business.
Large, multi-national corporations aren't doing their part. As an example, an average Wal-Mart gives healthcare coverage to 4 employees in their average retail locations. Now figure out how many people get screwed out of insurance where you work.
We as a society take horrible care of ourselves. Our inability to put down the Cheetos unnecessarily creates many very expensive health problems.
We won't accept death. I don't know the exact number but approximately 50% of the money we spend on healthcare comes in the last year of our lives.
Without basic primary care, we are raising the overall price of healthcare. Somebody gets sick, doesn't have health insurance so they don't go their doctor. Two weeks later they end up in the emergency room, which costs 10 times more. Big problem.


These are huge issues. Currently some states are *finally* starting to work on them. Russ Feingold, the Wisconsin Senator, pushed thru a bill funding states to experiment with models as to how to fund healthcare. It will be interesting to see what works.

I think we can all agree on two things:

Everyone deserves some form of healthcare.
The answers will not be easy.

[MrPink]

so yer ssaiyng tht soome people can onky get minmum wage jobs? theres always the mitary

[MrPink]

noone wants to take care of themsleve s anymroe. you know what weong 2ihr our helahtcare sysstem? it exists

im out itsparty time

[cupcakelove]

so yer ssaiyng tht soome people can onky get minmum wage jobs? theres always the mitary

You're right, the economic standing you're born into should determine the quality of life you are entitled to.

[HBox]

noone wants to take care of themsleve s anymroe. you know what weong 2ihr our helahtcare sysstem? it exists

im out itsparty time


Look, I know what you believe and in spite of your horrendous spelling which I will chalk up to getting an early start on partying I would still respect you if you came out and say it. You just don't want to pay for other people's health care, right? You don't believe in risk sharing. You want the money you earned, all of it, and if other people you don't know are less fortunate you flat out do not care. Am I right?

If I am, just come out and say it. Stop hiding behind this responsibility bullshit. Most people aren't responsible for their illness. Most did nothing wrong to cause it. Good, honest, hard-working people living a healthy life style get sick. They get into car accidents that weren't their fault. They get injured any number of ways and its not their fault. They develop a disease or condition that runs in their family and its not their fault. They are born with something and its not their fault.

And my view is that just because they aren't insanely rich and can't afford their treatments out of pocket or aren't part of the shrinking portion of the population with real health insurance that can cover the treatment they need that they still deserve to be treated. And even if they shared some blame in their own illness they still deserve to be treated.

If you believe otherwise just say it and stop hiding behind empty rhetoric.

[Bulldogcakes]

Healthcare shouldn't be a luxury. It's a necessity.

So is food
So is housing
So is clothing
So is transportation to and from your place of employment

You want the government to provide all of that for you as well? Your argument ends up in Communism. It's been tried, and failed, many times.

As to the argument at hand, even supporters of the British Health Care system will tell you they privately hope that we don't follow their lead, since about 95% of all new drugs are developed in the US. And in a socialized system, why bother. No greedy, evil windfall profits to make, therefore no new drugs. The reality is (all) governments wont pay much for new drugs. Since research costs are so high, and the truly innovative drugs are even more speculative, companies will simply stop trying to make them without a big payoff down the line. Or they (more likely) will simply go elsewhere to do their business, and take their jobs, brains, money and tax revenue with them. It's 1959 Cuba, just without the shooting.

Also, look at how we ALREADY provide Government run health care in this country. Like the Veterans administration. Ask some of the people to who we owe our "freedom" what the health care they get is like. 6 month (or more) waiting lists are common, they give rubber stamped (and often erroneous) diagnoses, and if you have been watching the news you know what's been going on at Walter Reed. And thats the crown jewel of the system.

I'd prefer the freedom to make my own health care decisions, and that means I have to pay for it. Once you ask some one else to pay for it, you inevitably will give up the right to make your own decisions.

[Bulldogcakes]

There's about a billion things wrong with our healthcare system here are a few of them:


Everyone should have coverage.
The current fiscal system does not work. Medicare type programs don't pay the bills for the provider network, so the government can't push that angle. If they gave everybody Medicare, the hospital systems would go out of business.
Large, multi-national corporations aren't doing their part. As an example, an average Wal-Mart gives healthcare coverage to 4 employees in their average retail locations. Now figure out how many people get screwed out of insurance where you work.
We as a society take horrible care of ourselves. Our inability to put down the Cheetos unnecessarily creates many very expensive health problems.
We won't accept death. I don't know the exact number but approximately 50% of the money we spend on healthcare comes in the last year of our lives.
Without basic primary care, we are raising the overall price of healthcare. Somebody gets sick, doesn't have health insurance so they don't go their doctor. Two weeks later they end up in the emergency room, which costs 10 times more. Big problem.


These are huge issues. Currently some states are *finally* starting to work on them. Russ Feingold, the Wisconsin Senator, pushed thru a bill funding states to experiment with models as to how to fund healthcare. It will be interesting to see what works.

I think we can all agree on two things:

Everyone deserves some form of healthcare.
The answers will not be easy.


Good post. The part about people piling up huge costs in the last year is very true, and I think its from the insurance system we have which insulate people from costs. If people had to spend out of their pockets for the end of life care they might make more rational decisions.

For example, most people don't understand why people have "DNR"s (do not recussitate) They think that some doctor will rush in with a cape on and save them, like on TV. The reality is the vast majority of people NEVER are revived, and those that are usually have massive brain damage. Its less than 1% that make it through safely.
Again, if people understood what they're spending $ on, they'll likely make more rational decisions. Where possible, of course. I'm not asking them to become doctors.

[Snacks]

so yer ssaiyng tht soome people can onky get minmum wage jobs? theres always the mitary

I hate shit like this. It reminds me that everyone can do whatever it is they want. No this is not true. If everyone wanted to get better jobs then their would be no one doing these jobs you speak of. Not everyone can find better work, better healthcare, make more money.

There will always be rich and there will always be poor. The problem is the rich makes way too much money and keeps the poor down.

I fight with my brother about this all the time. He says everyone could change their lives if they wanted. No they cant, we all have the opertunity to do so, but if we all did where would it come from? Everyone has the opertunity to own a business but all the people that want to cant b/c there wouldnt be enough customers.

Anyway we need some kind of national healthcare and mental care system. Even if that means an increase in tax. Tax the rich a little more. They make enough off the bottom 1/2 of the country.

[HBox]

Also, look at how we ALREADY provide Government run health care in this country. Like the Veterans administration. Ask some of the people to who we owe our "freedom" what the health care they get is like. 6 month (or more) waiting lists are common, they give rubber stamped (and often erroneous) diagnoses, and if you have been watching the news you know what's been going on at Walter Reed. And thats the crown jewel of the system.

Incorrect point on Walter Reed. Walter Reed Medical Center is an Army hospital run by the Army. The VA has nothing to do with running the place. And most of the problems there were attributed to the outsourcing of service staff to an incompetent outside contractor.

As far as the VA its quality of care is the highest in the nation and its problems have mainly to do with the waiting lists, a problem exacerbated by underfunding and an ongoing war.

See here. (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1376238,00.html)

And I think you have some kind of weird, false idea about the "freedom" you have in choosing your health care, unless of course you are stinking rich and can afford to go anywhere. Otherwise you are limited to the doctors and hospitals to which your insurance company has deals with. Have a doctor you've been seeing for years but is out of network? You insurance company will pay less, or more often nothing for your visits. And now all of a sudden we're back to what you can afford which isn't much of a choice for a lot of people.

And you are limited to whatever treatments and procedures your insurance company will pay for, and where they will let you get them, and for however long they will let you use them. And they will cover whatever drugs they, and not your doctors, deem medically necessary. And of course you need their permission before going to some doctors and having some procedures (referals and pre-certification). And if you don't get that permission beforehand they won't pay, even if they themselves see it as medically necessary. And sometimes some of the worse companies will play games with you, at first refusing payment on bills they know they have to cover in the hopes people don't follow up and pay themselves.

The only people in this country who are truly free are the rich. And even some of them are vulnerable. The wrong illness at the wrong time could sap hundreds of thousands. That's how crazy out of control costs are.

[torker]

When did MR PINK become 'can't spellz giy'?

[HBox]

Good post. The part about people piling up huge costs in the last year is very true, and I think its from the insurance system we have which insulate people from costs. If people had to spend out of their pockets for the end of life care they might make more rational decisions.

For example, most people don't understand why people have "DNR"s (do not recussitate) They think that some doctor will rush in with a cape on and save them, like on TV. The reality is the vast majority of people NEVER are revived, and those that are usually have massive brain damage. Its less than 1% that make it through safely.
Again, if people understood what they're spending $ on, they'll likely make more rational decisions. Where possible, of course. I'm not asking them to become doctors.

Another thing to keep in mind is the 80/20 rule. 80% of health care spending is used the sickest 20% of the population. The end of life stuff is a part of that, and is the only place where I buy this "insulation from costs" argument. Although it is a touchy subject. Nobody wants a third party coming in ordering doctors to pull the plug, whether it be an insurance company or the government. But they are a huge drain on resources.

But solve this problem alone and you won't come close to saving the current system.

[furie]

the european heathcare/welfare state is whole inadequate for our needs. my parents lived in ireland for 12 years. in 2006, they moved back to the US. The reason, the heathcare over there just plain sucks. the doctors have become apatheic burocrats, where the system is more important than the patient. My father had a heart attack over in ireland. he was treated and told that he needed bypass surgry. so they scheduled the surgery for 2 FUCKING YEARS in the future (which would have been about now actually). why two years? the systems backed up.
At the same time, my mother complained about blood in her urine. they told her she probably had an infection and told her to drink cranberry juice (which is actually hard to find in ireland for some reason).
So my father left ireland and went to florida as soon as he was somewhat better and scheduled his surgery for a few weeks after he arrived. and he was just fine. But by this time, my mother's bladder burst and she almost died. infection.... right.
It should also be noted that my grandfather died in an irish hospital from neglect. he was suffering from head trauma, and died in the emergency room, because he went untreated for nearly 30 hours after being brought in. emergency not being the opertive word apparently.
Their neighbor, Mick died last winter. he need heart valve surgery. he was on the list to have the surgery for 4 years. that's how they clear the list, you die.
Our system is expensive, but you get care and are treated well, because they want your cash and/or insurance money. The welfare state is not the panacea some think it is. It is far more dehumanizing than ours.

[TheMojoPin]

Now that we've dispensed with the ideological cliches do you have anything relevant to the topic at hand?

I'd be more for the idea of "medical competition" if it meant we were getting the world's best level of healthcare, especially since we're such a well off nation.

Oh, right...we don't have the world's best healthcare. Some of them there socialist countries is better than us when it comes to fixin' folks.

[TheMojoPin]

So is food
So is housing
So is clothing
So is transportation to and from your place of employment

You want the government to provide all of that for you as well? Your argument ends up in Communism. It's been tried, and failed, many times.

You talk like there's no way a middle ground is even possible.

Huge parts of how our country is run have been socialist or socialist-esque since day one. It's not the end of the world if we enact further socialist policies, nor is it an automatic jump to communism.

General question for the anti-national healthcare crowd...do you support federal regulation of medical costs on any level?

[TheMojoPin]

Agnostic, if you wanna read more along these thines, I'd reccomend these two books:

Why Americans Hate Welfare (http://www.amazon.com/Why-Americans-Hate-Welfare-Communication/dp/0226293653/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-7729873-9006366?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175314429&sr=1-1)

From Poor Law to Welfare State: A History of Social Welfare in America (http://www.amazon.com/Poor-Law-Welfare-State-6th/dp/0684854716/ref=sr_1_7/104-7729873-9006366?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175314731&sr=1-7)

[AgnosticJihad]

Agnostic, if you wanna read more along these thines, I'd reccomend these two books:

Why Americans Hate Welfare (http://www.amazon.com/Why-Americans-Hate-Welfare-Communication/dp/0226293653/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-7729873-9006366?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175314429&sr=1-1)

From Poor Law to Welfare State: A History of Social Welfare in America (http://www.amazon.com/Poor-Law-Welfare-State-6th/dp/0684854716/ref=sr_1_7/104-7729873-9006366?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175314731&sr=1-7)

Thanks. I'll check them out.

[Fat_Sunny]

The only people in this country who are truly free are the rich.

Why Do You Have To Spoil Sensible Points With A Line Like That? F_S Is By No Means Rich, But He Is Every Bit As Free As Donald Trump. If You Don't Feel Free, That's Fine, But Please Do Not Project Your Self Pity On The Rest Of Us.

Fat Has A Small Business And Has To Buy His Own Insurance. He Had A Premium Policy That Cost $800 Per Month, But, Thank God, He Never Even Used It. So This Year He Went Shoppoing And Got A Blue Cross Policy That Covers CATASTROPHIC Care. Costs $289 Per Month. You Do Not Have To Be RICH TO Afford $289.

And One More Thing. F_S Has An 85 Year Old American Aunt Who Has Lived In England For 50 Years, And An 84 Year Old Dad In The Midwest. They Both Have A Number Of Health Issues, And Dad Is Happy With His Care, And The Aunt In England Says She Wishes She Had Moved Back To The USA 10 Years Ago So That She Would Have DECENT Care In Her Final Years. She Feels She Does NOT Have Adequate Medical Care In The UK.

[HBox]

Why Do You Have To Spoil Sensible Points With A Line Like That? F_S Is By No Means Rich, But He Is Every Bit As Free As Donald Trump. If You Don't Feel Free, That's Fine, But Please Do Not Project Your Self Pity On The Rest Of Us.

Fat Has A Small Business And Has To Buy His Own Insurance. He Had A Premium Policy That Cost $800 Per Month, But, Thank God, He Never Even Used It. So This Year He Went Shoppoing And Got A Blue Cross Policy That Covers CATASTROPHIC Care. Costs $289 Per Month. You Do Not Have To Be RICH TO Afford $289.

And One More Thing. F_S Has An 85 Year Old American Aunt Who Has Lived In England For 50 Years, And An 84 Year Old Dad In The Midwest. They Both Have A Number Of Health Issues, And Dad Is Happy With His Care, And The Aunt In England Says She Wishes She Had Moved Back To The USA 10 Years Ago So That She Would Have DECENT Care In Her Final Years. She Feels She Does NOT Have Adequate Medical Care In The UK.

That was bad wording on my part. I meant free only in terms of health care. If you are reliant on insurance to pay for your health care you are not by any stretch of the imagination free. You cannot go to any doctor you want, or any hospital you want, or necessarily choose any treatment course you want, or use any facility you want unless you can afford it and use your own money, which defeats the point of having insurance in the first place if you can afford it.

As for your catastrophic policy, #1. Good thing you never used your previous insurance because if you did you would either be paying a ton more or denied coverage altogether. Because that's what people who already have conditions, even slight ones, have to deal with. Often that would mean that doing what you are doing (i.e. opening their own small business) is simply not a viable option. #2. You better hope that you don't come down with something chronic like diabetes or otherwise you will be constantly be paying a lot out of pocket. These kinds of policies are fine to guard against one time medical issues (accidents, physical injuries) where you might rack up a lot of costs one year but will fully recover. Any illness that stays with you will cost you tremendously with the large deductibles and out-of-pocket limits these policies routinely have. You will be in a position where you will have to expect to pay thousands of dollars per year because you know you will need health care every year. Better than nothing obviously but also the ingredients for all those medical bankruptcies.

And all these anecdotes that you guys are sharing about relatives receiving care in other countries just simply aren't borne out by any international studies. People on the whole are more satisfied and better served by their health care systems in most other industrialized nations. They are happier with their care and receive better care. And spend much less than us.

[furie]

well hbox, you can ignore or dismiss what i've posted if that's your choice. but the fact remains, my parents repatriated for one reason, proper health care that they did not receive from the EU.

[foodcourtdruide]

You talk like there's no way a middle ground is even possible.

Huge parts of how our country is run have been socialist or socialist-esque since day one. It's not the end of the world if we enact further socialist policies, nor is it an automatic jump to communism.

General question for the anti-national healthcare crowd...do you support federal regulation of medical costs on any level?

I agree with you Mojo. Why does everything have to be absolute?

Bulldogs, why do you think providing health care is the same as providing food and clothing for everyone? Do you believe in true capitalism? True democracy?

[foodcourtdruide]

Why Do You Have To Spoil Sensible Points With A Line Like That? F_S Is By No Means Rich, But He Is Every Bit As Free As Donald Trump. If You Don't Feel Free, That's Fine, But Please Do Not Project Your Self Pity On The Rest Of Us.

Fat Has A Small Business And Has To Buy His Own Insurance. He Had A Premium Policy That Cost $800 Per Month, But, Thank God, He Never Even Used It. So This Year He Went Shoppoing And Got A Blue Cross Policy That Covers CATASTROPHIC Care. Costs $289 Per Month. You Do Not Have To Be RICH TO Afford $289.

And One More Thing. F_S Has An 85 Year Old American Aunt Who Has Lived In England For 50 Years, And An 84 Year Old Dad In The Midwest. They Both Have A Number Of Health Issues, And Dad Is Happy With His Care, And The Aunt In England Says She Wishes She Had Moved Back To The USA 10 Years Ago So That She Would Have DECENT Care In Her Final Years. She Feels She Does NOT Have Adequate Medical Care In The UK.

Um, for proper health coverage you would actually have to be quite wealthy. $800 a month is a lot of money, not many people in this country can afford that.

[HBox]

well hbox, you can ignore or dismiss what i've posted if that's your choice. but the fact remains, my parents repatriated for one reason, proper health care that they did not receive from the EU.

I'm not calling you a liar or anything I'm just saying your personal example is not indicative of the situation at large. There have been plenty of studies that indicate this.

Think of it this way: Lance Armstrong survived his cancer. It is a story we are all familiar with. But just because he survived doesn't mean that most people dealing with the kind of cancer he had survive.

[Fat_Sunny]

Um, for proper health coverage you would actually have to be quite wealthy. $800 a month is a lot of money, not many people in this country can afford that.

Yes, F_S Has To Admit It Was Becoming, If Not An Unbearable Burden, At Least A Significant Annoyance. But That Was For A Plan That Let F_S Select A Doctor Anywhere And Covered Everything With Just A $5 Co-Pay. It Was TOO GOOD A Plan. So He Looked At What He Actually Needed Based On His Health And His Situation. And He Did Not Need To Be Reimbursed For Two $40 Doctor Visits Per Year, But He Did Need Coverage In Case He Was Hit By A Car Or Was Hospitalized For 6 Months.

Fat's Saying That You Should Shop Around A Bit.

That Being Said, F_S Is Very Glad He Has No Kids To Cover, As He Might Be Singing A Different Tune Then!

[foodcourtdruide]

Yes, F_S Has To Admit It Was Becoming, If Not An Unbearable Burden, At Least A Significant Annoyance. But That Was For A Plan That Let F_S Select A Doctor Anywhere And Covered Everything With Just A $5 Co-Pay. It Was TOO GOOD A Plan. So He Looked At What He Actually Needed Based On His Health And His Situation. And He Did Not Need To Be Reimbursed For Two $40 Doctor Visits Per Year, But He Did Need Coverage In Case He Was Hit By A Car Or Was Hospitalized For 6 Months.

Fat's Saying That You Should Shop Around A Bit.

That Being Said, F_S Is Very Glad He Has No Kids To Cover, As He Might Be Singing A Different Tune Then!

What if you did have a medical problem? Wouldn't you be completely screwed? Don't you think part what makes a country great is people not having to worry about such things?

[furie]

I'm not calling you a liar or anything I'm just saying your personal example is not indicative of the situation at large. There have been plenty of studies that indicate this.

studies don't interest me. first, any study for an issue can be countered by one against; having as much validity. these kind of studies are self interest in statistical form.


this is an issue with two factors; people and money.
so lets hear about people who have personal experiences and let's hear why we can/can't/should/ or shouldn't pay for it.

[Fat_Sunny]

What if you did have a medical problem? Wouldn't you be completely screwed? Don't you think part what makes a country great is people not having to worry about such things?

Worrying About Everything Is What We All Do All The Time. It Is Part Of Life. There Is No Free Lunch, As They Say. The Question Is: Who Should Pay For Fat's Medical Care: Fat, Or The Country At Large? Fat Would Rather Do It Himself, Rather Than Relay On The 'Kindness Of Strangers'.

People With Means Are AOK. The Elderly And Very Poor Are AOK (They Get Medicare Or Something Like It). The People In THe Middle Class And Lower Middle Class DO Have A Problem, And We Should Solve It.

[HBox]

Yes, F_S Has To Admit It Was Becoming, If Not An Unbearable Burden, At Least A Significant Annoyance. But That Was For A Plan That Let F_S Select A Doctor Anywhere And Covered Everything With Just A $5 Co-Pay. It Was TOO GOOD A Plan. So He Looked At What He Actually Needed Based On His Health And His Situation. And He Did Not Need To Be Reimbursed For Two $40 Doctor Visits Per Year, But He Did Need Coverage In Case He Was Hit By A Car Or Was Hospitalized For 6 Months.

Fat's Saying That You Should Shop Around A Bit.

That Being Said, F_S Is Very Glad He Has No Kids To Cover, As He Might Be Singing A Different Tune Then!

I'd also like to point something. this is a perfect example of something called the adverse selection death spiral. Health insurance is reliant on risk sharing, that everyone pays something into a pool and everyone can feel secure that if the shit hits the fan they will be taken care of.

Now obviously the sickest people would find Fat's old policy attractive. With the money they would otherwise have to spend with cheaper plans the most expensive plan actually makes the most financial sense. So all the sick people flock to the more expensive plans. Some healthy people find it not worth it, risk it and opt for the cheaper plans.

Problem is that you need a good amount of healthy people to cover the costs of the sick people. As I mentioned before, 80% of health care costs are incurred by 20% of the population. But as the sick take up bigger and bigger portions of the people who opt for those more expensive health plans, premiums rise and more healthy people opt out because they can't afford it or don't find it worth it. And then the premiums rise again. And on and on until only the sick people are left. Then you essentially have the sick people having to completely pay for their own care. And that's #1. impossible for both the patients and insurance company and #2. Defeats the purpose of insurance in the first place.

Which is why insurance companies try to avoid insuring sick people in the first place. Which makes you wonder: why the hell are we putting our health care system in the hands of companies who try to avoid helping the very people the health care system is SUPPOSED TO CARE FOR. It is simply not in insurance companies interest to insure sick people. I am not prescribing any evil intentions here. Corporations exist solely to make money and there's no money in sick people. That's just how things work. Why we rely on this system to care for our sick is beyond me.

As you can see I turn into yerdaddy on health care.

[Fat_Sunny]

As you can see I turn into yerdaddy on health care.

You And High Fly And Yer Daddy And Mojo Pin Are All Indistinguishable On All Topics. At Least You Probably Don't Walk Around The Streets Of Bali Dressed in A Skirt, Though.

Fat Would Be Willing To Compromise On Health Care, So Long As People SHARE In The Costs To Avoid "Over-Utilization". Someone With A Cold Should NOT Be Going To The Emergency Room. There Needs To Be A Deductible Or Co-Pay To Get People To Think "Do I Really Need To Go To The Doctor For This Cut On My Hand Or Because I Have Been Sneezing For 6 Hours".

[HBox]

studies don't interest me. first, any study for an issue can be countered by one against; having as much validity. these kind of studies are self interest in statistical form.


this is an issue with two factors; people and money.
so lets hear about people who have personal experiences and let's hear why we can/can't/should/ or shouldn't pay for it.

Studies are the only way to get an idea of how the system work as a whole. If I had read one single study criticizing our health system I would be skeptical. Personally I am happy with health care I receive and haven't had problems. These studies fly in the face of my personal experience. But studies come in constantly showing our health care is not the finest in the world. Far from it.

But you want personal examples. So here are some of mine.

This article is an example of what I see. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7160636/)

I see hard working parents who have sick kids. I see some of them with lousy or no insurance. I see them having to make the choice between medicine and food. I see them no choosing medicine out of necessity. I see these kids suffering. I see them getting sicker. I see the lack of treatment LITERALLY costing them years of their already short lives.

They are kids. They are teens. They are young adults. They cannot afford their medicine. It kills their parents that they can't do anything. It kills the kids to see what they are doing to their parents. For a child to know that they are responsible for their parents selling their house, going into bankruptcy, having to quit their jobs just to get bare bones coverage like Medicaid. And having to deal with that while sick. And not getting the medicine they need.

I know people in this position. It's fucking horrible. These people are literally losing years of their life because they can't afford their medicine. And they are young. I know a nurse who will occasionally help patients buy diabetes supplies out of her own pocket. Wouldn't it be hard to go into an industry wanting to help people and then doing your job and then knowing that it doesn't mean anything because your patients don't have money?

You can all talk about how great your health insurance is, that the treatment you get is wonderful. And you're probably right. I get great treatment so I wouldn't doubt it. But there is another health system that 40 milllion and growing people deal with. And it's fucking shameful when it's happening in the richest nation on Earth. There is not a health system in the industrialized world that can rival the inhumane awfulness of THAT system. And it's happening in the richest nation on Earth. Like it or not, this system is part of us too.

[HBox]

Someone With A Cold Should NOT Be Going To The Emergency Room.

Well, they go to the emergency room because they can't afford a doctor's visit and unlike the doctor the emergency room can't turn them away. And often by the time they get there that cold has turned into something more serious like pneumonia. Which is where there are costs that could have been avoided that, ultimately, us with insurance end up paying for.

[A.J.]

You're right, the economic standing you're born into should determine the quality of life you are entitled to.

You'll never see my house on MTV Cribs.

[A.J.]

General question for the anti-national healthcare crowd...do you support federal regulation of medical costs on any level?

Will they then be regulating the costs of gas? Heating oil? Cereal?

[angrymissy]

so yer ssaiyng tht soome people can onky get minmum wage jobs? theres always the mitary

You're still in college, right (I'm assuming by your location). Are you responsible for your own healthcare costs? Also, do you have a full time job yet? Just curious.

[badmonkey]

Wouldn't it be hard to go into an industry wanting to help people and then doing your job and then knowing that it doesn't mean anything because your patients don't have money?


Well, they go to the emergency room because they can't afford a doctor's visit and unlike the doctor the emergency room can't turn them away. And often by the time they get there that cold has turned into something more serious like pneumonia. Which is where there are costs that could have been avoided that, ultimately, us with insurance end up paying for.
[/SIZE]

When you go into the medical industry now, you know that you are going to be helping people without being paid. Insurance companies also not only tell you which services they will pay for, they tell the doctors how much they will pay for a procedure. People with insurance do not significantly help cover the cost of the uninsured. If you have insurance, you are paying about 1/3 - 2/3 of the cost of a procedure. The cost of paying for the uninsured goes pretty much to the uninsured, who pay full price for their care or don't pay at all. The thing that drives your insurance rates are the number of sick people that your insurance is covering and how healthy you and your family stay.

Here's a few other things that contribute greatly in driving the cost of healthcare up for the rest of us, both the insured and uninsured, but mostly the uninsured:

Frivilous lawsuits that drive up the cost of malpractice insurance for doctors. You think your personal medical insurance is expensive? Try paying $250,000 a year for malpractice insurance.
Lawsuits against the drug companies that drive up the cost of medicine.
The illegal immigrants that go to the emergency room because they can't be turned away there and NEVER pay the bill. They don't wait til its serious. They go in for the common cold and other general medical treatment.

My dad's #1 complaint with medical care is the bureaucracy of the insurance companies being unwilling to pay for needed procedures or having to convince a non-medically trained rep that it is needed. You put the government in charge of healthcare and you've got the same thing. You're just switching to a less efficient bureaucracy. The decisions are still out of your hands and out of the hands of the medical professionals that are caring for you. If you want to fix the system, then we have to start by getting laws passed to protect doctors and give them back the power to make the decisions involving your healthcare. I don't have the answer to fixing it all so everybody has healthcare, but I do know that I don't want it to be like our education system, which is govt provided and still fails the poor. Give it to the govt to run and I think that's exactly what we'll have.

This Robin Hood mentality is silly. It seems a lot more like tax the rich down to our level so we can all be equal. I think my favorites are the "maximum wage" proposals. Those are fantastic ideas. What percentage of your income are you willing to let the government take from you? 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60? How many days a week are you willing to work just to pay taxes knowing that none of the money you make those days are for yourself?


Badmonkey

[TheMojoPin]

Will they then be regulating the costs of gas? Heating oil? Cereal?

So you opoose government regulation when it comes to stopping things like monopolies?

[TheMojoPin]

What percentage of your income are you willing to let the government take from you? 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60? How many days a week are you willing to work just to pay taxes knowing that none of the money you make those days are for yourself?

If the government guarenteed things like universal healthcare and funded education through college, I'd have no problem paying between 30 and 40%...of course, that's hinged on devising something along the lines of a minimum "living wage" that's flexible along with the economy.

I know it'll never happen, but I'd pay it. I think having higher education more available to us all would ultimately result in a stronger country and economy.

[Gvac]

If the government guarenteed things like universal healthcare and funded education through college, I'd have no problem paying between 30 and 40%...of course, that's hinged on devising something along the lines of a minimum "living wage" that's flexible along with the economy.

I know it'll never happen, but I'd pay it. I think having higher education more available to us all would ultimately result in a stronger country and economy.

As long as all state, local, property, and sales taxes are abolished and I'm guaranteed to make at least $175,000/yr. I say it's a good plan. Otherwise, no one will be able to afford their other bills and day to day living expenses such as mortgage/rent, gas & electric, food, clothing, insurances, car payments, telephone, etc.

[HBox]

When you go into the medical industry now, you know that you are going to be helping people without being paid. Insurance companies also not only tell you which services they will pay for, they tell the doctors how much they will pay for a procedure. People with insurance do not significantly help cover the cost of the uninsured. If you have insurance, you are paying about 1/3 - 2/3 of the cost of a procedure. The cost of paying for the uninsured goes pretty much to the uninsured, who pay full price for their care or don't pay at all. The thing that drives your insurance rates are the number of sick people that your insurance is covering and how healthy you and your family stay.

Here's a few other things that contribute greatly in driving the cost of healthcare up for the rest of us, both the insured and uninsured, but mostly the uninsured:

Frivilous lawsuits that drive up the cost of malpractice insurance for doctors. You think your personal medical insurance is expensive? Try paying $250,000 a year for malpractice insurance.
Lawsuits against the drug companies that drive up the cost of medicine.
The illegal immigrants that go to the emergency room because they can't be turned away there and NEVER pay the bill. They don't wait til its serious. They go in for the common cold and other general medical treatment.
My dad's #1 complaint with medical care is the bureaucracy of the insurance companies being unwilling to pay for needed procedures or having to convince a non-medically trained rep that it is needed. You put the government in charge of healthcare and you've got the same thing. You're just switching to a less efficient bureaucracy. The decisions are still out of your hands and out of the hands of the medical professionals that are caring for you. If you want to fix the system, then we have to start by getting laws passed to protect doctors and give them back the power to make the decisions involving your healthcare. I don't have the answer to fixing it all so everybody has healthcare, but I do know that I don't want it to be like our education system, which is govt provided and still fails the poor. Give it to the govt to run and I think that's exactly what we'll have.

This Robin Hood mentality is silly. It seems a lot more like tax the rich down to our level so we can all be equal. I think my favorites are the "maximum wage" proposals. Those are fantastic ideas. What percentage of your income are you willing to let the government take from you? 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60? How many days a week are you willing to work just to pay taxes knowing that none of the money you make those days are for yourself?


Badmonkey

You may not know it but you ARE paying for the uninsured. Of course the uninsured get stuck with the huge bills for the care they receive in emergency rooms. But most never have the ability to pay off the bill. So how does recoup the cost of treating people who can't pay? The people who can pay pay more than they would otherwise have to. So we are footing the bill.

As far as frivolous lawsuits go, Harvard recently did a study on this issue. They put together a panel of doctors to review medical malpractice cases that were finished. They essentially asked the doctors to play jury since they obviously know more about how medicine should work. Guess what happened? It turned out more doctors were getting off the hook for their own malpractice than plaintiffs were winning on false claims. If we somehow sorted out the system more doctors would be held accountable for their own malpractice. I'll try and dig out the link.

And if you honestly think that LAWSUITS are driving the costs of drugs up you simply aren't paying attention. Some drugs are highly expensive for one reason: lack of competition. A drug company holds a patent on a drug and is the only one who can produce it so they can charge whatever they like. Once generics come out the price falls substantially unless the drug is expensive to produce.

And as far the government being more inefficient than insurance companies you are simply wrong. Medicare, Medicaid and the VA have far less administrative costs than any insurance company. It's not even close.

And the you drove way off into non-sequiters and such. If you are so worried about the poor go ask someone without insurance what they would prefer: what they have now or the system in any other industrialized country. The answer is obvious. It's a choice between nothing and something.

[A.J.]

So you opoose government regulation when it comes to stopping things like monopolies?

No, I just wonder if such a thing wouldn't lead to a slippery slope.

[TheMojoPin]

As long as all state, local, property, and sales taxes are abolished and I'm guaranteed to make at least $175,000/yr. I say it's a good plan. Otherwise, no one will be able to afford their other bills and day to day living expenses such as mortgage/rent, gas & electric, food, clothing, insurances, car payments, telephone, etc.

Well, in my scenario, the entire structure of the economy would be different from what we have now, hence why I know it'll never happen.

[RogerPodacter]

When you go into the medical industry now, you know that you are going to be helping people without being paid. Insurance companies also not only tell you which services they will pay for, they tell the doctors how much they will pay for a procedure. People with insurance do not significantly help cover the cost of the uninsured. If you have insurance, you are paying about 1/3 - 2/3 of the cost of a procedure. The cost of paying for the uninsured goes pretty much to the uninsured, who pay full price for their care or don't pay at all. The thing that drives your insurance rates are the number of sick people that your insurance is covering and how healthy you and your family stay.

Here's a few other things that contribute greatly in driving the cost of healthcare up for the rest of us, both the insured and uninsured, but mostly the uninsured:

Frivilous lawsuits that drive up the cost of malpractice insurance for doctors. You think your personal medical insurance is expensive? Try paying $250,000 a year for malpractice insurance.
Lawsuits against the drug companies that drive up the cost of medicine.
The illegal immigrants that go to the emergency room because they can't be turned away there and NEVER pay the bill. They don't wait til its serious. They go in for the common cold and other general medical treatment.
My dad's #1 complaint with medical care is the bureaucracy of the insurance companies being unwilling to pay for needed procedures or having to convince a non-medically trained rep that it is needed. You put the government in charge of healthcare and you've got the same thing. You're just switching to a less efficient bureaucracy. The decisions are still out of your hands and out of the hands of the medical professionals that are caring for you. If you want to fix the system, then we have to start by getting laws passed to protect doctors and give them back the power to make the decisions involving your healthcare. I don't have the answer to fixing it all so everybody has healthcare, but I do know that I don't want it to be like our education system, which is govt provided and still fails the poor. Give it to the govt to run and I think that's exactly what we'll have.

This Robin Hood mentality is silly. It seems a lot more like tax the rich down to our level so we can all be equal. I think my favorites are the "maximum wage" proposals. Those are fantastic ideas. What percentage of your income are you willing to let the government take from you? 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60? How many days a week are you willing to work just to pay taxes knowing that none of the money you make those days are for yourself?


Badmonkey


Right now I pay over 40% of every dollar i make to taxes. Its complete BS. I'm not saying i'm rich. But if i ever hear "the rich pay none of the taxes and the middle class pays all of the taxes" i will vomit in someone's mouth. The fact is there are way more people who have income of middle class, so of course the majority of tax money will come from that bracket. Drives me nuts. I feel like we're in communism. One good thing about G W Bush is he slightly fixed that.

[TheMojoPin]

No, I just wonder if such a thing wouldn't lead to a slippery slope.

Possibly. But I think comparing heralthcare to cereal or even heating/energy sources isn't necessaril a viable comparison.

[MrPink]

You're still in college, right (I'm assuming by your location). Are you responsible for your own healthcare costs? Also, do you have a full time job yet? Just curious.

Yeah I'm still in school. No full time job. I am responsible for my own health related expenses since I'm not covered on my parents insurance anymore. I haven't been to a doctor in 3 years anyway, so it's no problem yet.

[HBox]

Here is the study I was talking about before. (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/press/releases/press05102006.html)

[HBox]

Right now I pay over 40% of every dollar i make to taxes. Its complete BS. I'm not saying i'm rich. But if i ever hear "the rich pay none of the taxes and the middle class pays all of the taxes" i will vomit in someone's mouth. The fact is there are way more people who have income of middle class, so of course the majority of tax money will come from that bracket. Drives me nuts. I feel like we're in communism. One good thing about G W Bush is he slightly fixed that.

How that worked is that the middle class on average was paying a higher percentage of their total income in taxes. That because the highest earners receive much of their income through investments whose rates are far lower than the rates on earned income. So even though high income earners were paying higher rates of taxes on their income from work that was more than offset by the lower rates of their investment income. Now that's not true for every single, and might not be true for you but on average that's how it worked out.

[RogerPodacter]

How that worked is that the middle class on average was paying a higher percentage of their total income in taxes. That because the highest earners receive much of their income through investments whose rates are far lower than the rates on earned income. So even though high income earners were paying higher rates of taxes on their income from work that was more than offset by the lower rates of their investment income. Now that's not true for every single, and might not be true for you but on average that's how it worked out.


I understand what you're saying. And yes I just make salary, no other investments. So its frustrating.

[Midkiff]

so yer ssaiyng tht soome people can onky get minmum wage jobs? theres always the mitary

Dude, just shut the hell up, seriously. Get off the coke and booze, go back to elementary school, and learn to spell. By the way, even the military would not accept your no-spelling ass.

[A.J.]

Dude, just shut the hell up, seriously. Get off the coke and booze, go back to elementary school, and learn to spell. By the way, even the military would not accept your no-spelling ass.


No, but the Federal government would. Trust me.

(And watch the personal attacks please)

[badmonkey]

You may not know it but you ARE paying for the uninsured. Of course the uninsured get stuck with the huge bills for the care they receive in emergency rooms. But most never have the ability to pay off the bill. So how does recoup the cost of treating people who can't pay? The people who can pay pay more than they would otherwise have to. So we are footing the bill.

Actually I DO know that I'm NOT paying for the uninsured with my insurance costs. I'm almost finished paying off medical bills from two births and another operation my wife needed last year. We didn't have insurance for either. My dad is a radiologist and has told me that the insurance companies set the rates they will pay per procedure and per film he reads. He also told me that hospitals charge the uninsured more because the insurance pays only a certain level. If prices were lower, the insurance companies would pay even less because the percentages would go down and doctors would make even less money. When we were dealing with the collection agencies for our medical bills, he tried to help us out by offering them a little over what the insurance companies would have paid. That was a little over half of what they get from us, the uninsured. Of course the collection agencies opted for court and ended up getting a court order for the full amount and a payment schedule that met their desires, not our ability to pay. But that's a whole different industry issue. Insurance companies pay a LOT less per procedure than you would as an individual. Probably much like buying in bulk saves you money too.

I'll read the study you posted later when I have more time.


And as far the government being more inefficient than insurance companies you are simply wrong. Medicare, Medicaid and the VA have far less administrative costs than any insurance company. It's not even close.

And the you drove way off into non-sequiters and such. If you are so worried about the poor go ask someone without insurance what they would prefer: what they have now or the system in any other industrialized country. The answer is obvious. It's a choice between nothing and something.

The government is ALWAYS less efficient than the private sector.

I AM the poor. I have insurance now through my job. The reason that I make as little as I do is because I chose to dick around in college and I chose to drop out instead of getting an education that would lead to a higher paying job. I later educated myself on computers to the point where I could make what I make now, which is well beyond minimum wage. The fact that I live in the high cost of living DC area and have a family, means I'm still the working poor. There are places I could live on what I'm making and be fairly well off, but my job doesn't exist in those places. Anybody that wants to get out of a minimum wage job can if they put any effort into learning a skill or trade.

I would rather have the choice of getting the expensive operation and risking bankruptcy on my own than be told by the govt that based on my age and my life expentancy, it's not worth the money to pay for the operation as it will not necessarily give me more than a few years more and may not work at all. In Canada, you can't choose. The govt says yes or no to your procedure. You don't like it and want to spend your own money? You bring your ass to America and pay for the healthcare your govt just denied you.

Like I said, I've had no insurance in the past and I do have insurance now. Of course I would rather have the insurance to protect me from the high cost things, but can I afford to pay more taxes so that everyone else can have healthcare too? Fuck no. Learn a skill or trade and jump into the job market and find one that provides healthcare. Hell, get a govt job, they pay well and provide healthcare and good benefits. Most govt jobs are low skill jobs anyway. Although, I guess the more people working for the govt, the more my taxes go up anyway.

Badmonkey

[Midkiff]

No, but the Federal government would. Trust me.

(And watch the personal attacks please)

Sorry. Nothing makes me angrier than when someone with NO clue takes a hard line on politics, on either side. Hayseeds!

[furie]

If the government guarenteed things like universal healthcare and funded education through college, I'd have no problem paying between 30 and 40%...of course, that's hinged on devising something along the lines of a minimum "living wage" that's flexible along with the economy.

i hope you understand that the average american pays over 33% now towards taxes. an additional 7% wouldn't cut it. you'd be looking at 50% just for heathcare. paid college education, i couldn't imagine the tax burden.

[TheMojoPin]

i hope you understand that the average american pays over 33% now towards taxes. an additional 7% wouldn't cut it. you'd be looking at 50% just for heathcare. paid college education, i couldn't imagine the tax burden.

It's not like the college cost would be a direct transfer of the system as it exists now.

[HBox]

Actually I DO know that I'm NOT paying for the uninsured with my insurance costs.You absolutely DO. If you buy food at a supermarket you are essentially paying for the shoplifters. A business HAS to recoup the costs of services not paid for. They may not list a "uninsured fee" on your bill but when they are negotiating rates with insurance companies they are calculating how much they need to stay in business and those unpaid bills make that amount higher.

As far as what you ended up having to pay if you had gone to the hospital itself earlier they would have lowered your bill. As you said, the only reason they charge so much is insurance companies. The hospital itself is willing to make to make a deal. When it goes to collection it's a crap shoot.

The government is ALWAYS less efficient than the private sector.No it isn't. We are not talking about theoreticals either. Government agencies currently exist that act as health insurance. Between the 3 of them they pay for around 50% of all medical spending in this country. And their administrative costs are far lower than any insurance company, let alone the average of all of them. This is not theory, this is fact.

I AM the poor. I have insurance now through my job. The reason that I make as little as I do is because I chose to dick around in college and I chose to drop out instead of getting an education that would lead to a higher paying job. I later educated myself on computers to the point where I could make what I make now, which is well beyond minimum wage. The fact that I live in the high cost of living DC area and have a family, means I'm still the working poor. There are places I could live on what I'm making and be fairly well off, but my job doesn't exist in those places. Anybody that wants to get out of a minimum wage job can if they put any effort into learning a skill or trade.What the fuck happened to this country. We used to be proud of a day's work. We realized that we all contribute. If a man worked we felt he had earned something. Now all of a sudden we like to shit on those we feel are lower than ourselves when they ask for anything. ANYTHING. The world will always need janitors and janitors will never make a lot of money.

Big houses are an incentive. Expensive sports cars are an incentive. Luxury vacations are an incentive. Dinner at a gourmet restaurant is an incentive. We have a country full of incentives to make a person better their own career. Fucking cancer treatment should not be a fucking incentive!

I would rather have the choice of getting the expensive operation and risking bankruptcy on my own than be told by the govt that based on my age and my life expentancy, it's not worth the money to pay for the operation as it will not necessarily give me more than a few years more and may not work at all.Unless your life is in immediate danger without that expensive operation you don't have to worry about going into bankruptcy because they simply won't do it.

But really, if you want to try and make the argument that we are the greatest country and the world and we also think its perfectly fine for an unfortunate illness to financially ruin a person's life I'm eager to hear it.

We don't even have to have a system where the government completely controls all health care. There are many countries that manage universal coverage and retain private medical industry. But even if that was the only option it comes down to this: do you want your government to control your health care or your wallet? In a world where treatments for serious injuries and illnesses can quickly outstrip a total year's income for most of us.

[Midkiff]

When you include all forms of taxation, Canadians and Brits all pay far less than we do - and get free healthcare.

[Fat_Sunny]

When you include all forms of taxation, Canadians and Brits all pay far less than we do - and get free healthcare.

JDminidick: If You Believe That, You're Smoking Crack!

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid211/p7bfcd92819636fb0509c6a5b263046ca/ed87af2c.jpg



And Leave Fat's Boy Mr. Pink Alone!

[Bulldogcakes]

As far as the VA its quality of care is the highest in the nation and its problems have mainly to do with the waiting lists, a problem exacerbated by underfunding and an ongoing war.

See here. (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1376238,00.html)

Good post, H-Box. I learned something there. They have obviously made great strides from the VA hospitals of the past where I've had relatives go die. Because if you had any hope, you wouldn't go there for anything else.

A few important things to point out, though. First, I don't think the private sector is allowed to keep those kinds of detailed medical records on the general public for privacy reasons. So if you have any hope of seeing a system like that implemented nationwide, I don't think it will happen.

If the government can do the job better, then GREAT. Let people vote with their feet. I have no problem with anyone who enters the marketplace and outperforms. The Government can compete as a service provider all they want in my book, but they should then take another look at some of the mandates and liabilities they've imposed on the private sector that they shield themselves from, in other words make sure its a fair playing field for all. What I don't want is losing "freedom" with them mandating a one size fits all universal system where people are forced into it, and medical decisions are made by bureaucrats. You have stated you don't want that either.

[Bulldogcakes]

If the government guarenteed things like universal healthcare and funded education through college, I'd have no problem paying between 30 and 40%...of course, that's hinged on devising something along the lines of a minimum "living wage" that's flexible along with the economy.

I know it'll never happen, but I'd pay it. I think having higher education more available to us all would ultimately result in a stronger country and economy.

Mojo,think about it. If you count your income taxes, property taxes (which you still pay even if your rent) sales taxes on every purchase, the hidden taxes of regulations that businesses pass along to consumers as higher prices, State taxes, local taxes, Fees, fines, tolls, surcharges, etc etc etc you're ALREADY paying Over 33%.Tax freedom day is April 30th nationally, May 22nd around here (about 40%). Those of us that run businesses pay even more. And then after all this shelling out all of your life, if you manage to save some money and build some assets, you get slammed with a Death Tax of 18-55%. National health care would push most working citizens to the 40-50% range.

The man who produces while others dispose of his product is a slave. – Ayn Rand

[epo]

When you include all forms of taxation, Canadians and Brits all pay far less than we do - and get free healthcare.

That's because we feel compelled to carry a huge military burden.

[TheMojoPin]

Mojo,think about it. If you count your income taxes, property taxes (which you still pay even if your rent) sales taxes on every purchase, the hidden taxes of regulations that businesses pass along to consumers as higher prices, State taxes, local taxes, Fees, fines, tolls, surcharges, etc etc etc you're ALREADY paying Over 33%.Tax freedom day is April 30th nationally, May 22nd around here (about 40%). Those of us that run businesses pay even more. And then after all this shelling out all of your life, if you manage to save some money and build some assets, you get slammed with a Death Tax of 18-55%. National health care would push most working citizens to the 40-50% range.

The man who produces while others dispose of his product is a slave. – Ayn Rand

I'm talking in terms of a system where the bulk of, if not all, taxes would be paid directly to the federal government. Sales, local, state, etc. wouldn't exist. But that's never going to happen.

Plus, any such adjustments would require a serious overhaul of the minimum wage/standaard salary rate in this country. And yeah, I know it would mean a lot of businesses that exist now wouldn't in such a system. That's just where you and I most obviously part ways. I place the overall good of the populace over the success of any and all businesses. I don't think "free market capitalism" is the end-all-be-all system that people think it is and that it ultimately does a realtive few good while doing nothing or harm to the majority in terms of standards of living and education/income/insurance/etc. opportunities. If less businesses meant better living for the populace as a whole, I'm all for it. And that's not saying that only the government can decide what businesses can exist or anything along those lines...it would just mean that some business opportunities wouldn't be able to exist because the owners can't meet the living requirements of its employees. Does that mean a business has to make sure their employees are living like kings? Of course not...but if a business cannot provide a salary for an employee who works there fulltime that is not livable based on the current economic necessities (not luxuries) of that area, I'm sorry, that business should not exist. If the business genuinely fills a need, it will be able to pay for its resources. Taking care of the employees should be first, owners' personal luxury gain second. If that need can't be met, sorry pal, SOOL. That's why I think a national minimum wage idoesn't accomplish much and a well studied and planned living wage at least on a state by state basis makes much more sense. The studies for this would be federally funded and the living wages would still be based out of federal reserves since that's where the taxes would be going...I know this basically tramples all over the idea of states' rights, but I think that those "states' rights" are ultimately really hurting the reduction of the lower classes in this country and encouraging the minimalization of the quality of life for the average Ameircan worker, leading to things like the federal minimum wage which don't really accomplish much in terms of eliminating poverty. What Joe Blow needs to make in Los Angeles or Washington DC to live isn't the same as Sally Somebody in the middle of Ohio or Montana.

That doesn't mean I'm saying that capitalism is bad and it should be done away with...I simply don't buy into the whole "as long as it encourages competition it's obviously the best on and only option" line. There are middle grounds out there. I fully recognize my system is hugely flawed...it mostly boilds down to that I see the current status quo as whatever is best for the employer is the "correct" option so long as they give their emplyees anythng that isn't below the federal minimum wage and I think it makes more sense that for a business to operate it needs to provide livable wages to the fulltime employees based on the regional "living wage."

Yes, I know you totally disagree with this. Such is life. Your side has already won.

[furie]

I'm talking in terms of a system where the bulk of, if not all, taxes would be paid directly to the federal government. Sales, local, state, etc. wouldn't exist. But that's never going to happen.


so, are you proposing a federal take over of all state & local systems or having the feds deciminate the collected taxes down to state & local as they see fit?

[HBox]

Good post, H-Box. I learned something there. They have obviously made great strides from the VA hospitals of the past where I've had relatives go die. Because if you had any hope, you wouldn't go there for anything else.

A few important things to point out, though. First, I don't think the private sector is allowed to keep those kinds of detailed medical records on the general public for privacy reasons. So if you have any hope of seeing a system like that implemented nationwide, I don't think it will happen.

If the government can do the job better, then GREAT. Let people vote with their feet. I have no problem with anyone who enters the marketplace and outperforms. The Government can compete as a service provider all they want in my book, but they should then take another look at some of the mandates and liabilities they've imposed on the private sector that they shield themselves from, in other words make sure its a fair playing field for all. What I don't want is losing "freedom" with them mandating a one size fits all universal system where people are forced into it, and medical decisions are made by bureaucrats. You have stated you don't want that either.

You are right and wrong about the private sector being able to do that. One of the doctor's I see works out of the University of Penn and they have a very similar system. They will schedule me for a CT scan in the morning, I will have that done and then an hour or two later have my appointment with the doctor. Usually by the time me and the doctor get into the exam room he can go to the computer in the room and read the results and look at the image. So that kind of stuff is happening.

Problem is that it is a very substantial initial investment. It saves money in the long run but hospitals are already getting squeezed. And U. of Penn is a huge hospital. It will be a long time before seeing stuff like that in your local hospital.

And privacy laws will hinder those kind of systems as well. The VA is a self-contained system so there is no problem sharing those records. But if my doctor worked out of a private office and not in the hospital he wouldn't have that kind of access to my records. Neither would other hospitals or other doctors if I were seeing them for some reason.

John Edwards health plan allows the government to compete with private insurers. It is very similar to what has been passed in Massachusetts and California except that a government health insurance would also be offered. So it could be a back door way to get nationalized health care IF a large majority of people find the government plan attractive.

[Jujubees2]

Mojo,think about it. If you count your income taxes, property taxes (which you still pay even if your rent) sales taxes on every purchase, the hidden taxes of regulations that businesses pass along to consumers as higher prices, State taxes, local taxes, Fees, fines, tolls, surcharges, etc etc etc you're ALREADY paying Over 33%.Tax freedom day is April 30th nationally, May 22nd around here (about 40%). Those of us that run businesses pay even more. And then after all this shelling out all of your life, if you manage to save some money and build some assets, you get slammed with a Death Tax of 18-55%. National health care would push most working citizens to the 40-50% range.

The man who produces while others dispose of his product is a slave. – Ayn Rand

Please don't drink the Republican Kool-Aid. The inheritance tax (which is the proper name) only affects inheritances in the millions of dollars (I think the tax kicks in at about $2million but I'm not sure) and there are so many ways around paying it.

From a Washington Post article:
Not many people are forced to pay the estate tax. According to the Internal Revenue Service, only 1.17 percent of people who died in 2002 left a taxable estate.

[TheMojoPin]

so, are you proposing a federal take over of all state & local systems or having the feds deciminate the collected taxes down to state & local as they see fit?

Pretty much. The problem is that doesn't really jive with my "living wage" idea since that would be based at least on a state by state basis. So I'm sort of up shit's creek. But beyond the living wage, I'd prefer to see things like guarenteed healthcare and higher education handled on the federal level. My biggest handicap here is that I'm an economics retard.

[furie]

Please don't drink the Republican Kool-Aid. The inheritance tax (which is the proper name) only affects inheritances in the millions of dollars (I think the tax kicks in at about $2million but I'm not sure) and there are so many ways around paying it.

From a Washington Post article:
Not many people are forced to pay the estate tax. According to the Internal Revenue Service, only 1.17 percent of people who died in 2002 left a taxable estate.

actually it's called the Estate tax not the inheritance tax.

[furie]

Pretty much. The problem is that doesn't really jive with my "living wage" idea since that would be based at least on a state by state basis. So I'm sort of up shit's creek. But beyond the living wage, I'd prefer to see things like guarenteed healthcare and higher education handled on the federal level. My biggest handicap here is that I'm an economics retard.

pretty much which one?

[TheMojoPin]

pretty much which one?

Sorry about that. The latter.

[Midkiff]

JDminidick: If You Believe That, You're Smoking Crack!

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid211/p7bfcd92819636fb0509c6a5b263046ca/ed87af2c.jpg



And Leave Fat's Boy Mr. Pink Alone!

IF ONE MORE MOTHER FUCKER CALLS ME "MINIDICK" I WILL GO TO YOUR HOUSE AND CUT YOU FROM STEM TO STERN! I DO BELIEVE OUR MOD SAID "NO PERSONAL ATTACKS!" All of you always cry about "hiding behind fake screen names," while your own names are obviously not real. Mine, on the other hand is my REAL NAME and I don't appreciate it being belittled.

We all know your legal name is not Fat Sunny, and yet I still refrain from calling you a "Fat Retard," or "Fat Idiot who would suck W's cock and pay for the privilege." I'd appreciate the same respect.

[reeshy]

My sister-in-law, who lives in Germany, has almost 60% of her income eaten up in taxes.......is that what you call free health care.....and then if she has to go to the doctor......you wait up to 4 months for an appointment!!!!!!

[RogerPodacter]

Please don't drink the Republican Kool-Aid. The inheritance tax (which is the proper name) only affects inheritances in the millions of dollars (I think the tax kicks in at about $2million but I'm not sure) and there are so many ways around paying it.

From a Washington Post article:
Not many people are forced to pay the estate tax. According to the Internal Revenue Service, only 1.17 percent of people who died in 2002 left a taxable estate.


My family was directly affected by the "death" / estate tax. We are not millionares, and it is an unfair tax. My family worked their ENTIRE LIVES to start their own business and become successful, only to have the government take 55% of that away. BULLSHIT. i can see may 30-40%, BUT 55%!!!! Thats communism and it should be abolished.

The economy is not a zero-sum game. Just because someone has a certain amount of money doesnt mean that others are poor because of that. there is enough for EVERYONE if they chose to work hard.

[Jujubees2]

No matter what system you have, people will always complains. The bottom line is that the U.S. has one of the lowest life expectancy rates in the industrialized world. The Norwegian countries are tops, not only because of their great healthcare system but for their high levels of education and income.

An interesting read: Nordic Countries Best place to Live in the World (http://www.scandinavica.com/culture/society/UNreport.htm).

A couple of quotes:

A successful community is not that which has one wealthy member and nine living in poverty, but that one where all members of the community have succeeded in achieving a high standard of living.

In Norway, 99 percent of the population can read and write, there are 413 doctors per 100,000 citizens, the average life expectancy is 78.4 years, and the Norwegians are even wealthier than ever before. The famous Nordic social welfare state remains efficient and provides the Norwegians with a first class health, education and benefits system, which is financed through their taxes.

However the Norwegian society is the most developed in the world, the average Norwegian is still known to complain nonetheless. The current discussion topics in Norway range among the waiting lists for medical care, the shortage of nursing homes and the cuts in police and school budgets.

[Jujubees2]

My family was directly affected by the "death" / estate tax. We are not millionares, and it is an unfair tax. My family worked their ENTIRE LIVES to start their own business and become successful, only to have the government take 55% of that away. BULLSHIT. i can see may 30-40%, BUT 55%!!!! Thats communism and it should be abolished.

The economy is not a zero-sum game. Just because someone has a certain amount of money doesnt mean that others are poor because of that. there is enough for EVERYONE if they chose to work hard.

Bottom line is, if you are not millionaires, then the Estate Tax should not have applied to you. Unless you have a very bad tax advisor, you were misled.

[MrPink]

I just can't get behind a state run health care system. Do you trust the government with your health? I certaintly don't. If we stop nationalized health care, we can save money on taxes. That money can be used to donate to charitable organizations to help with health care costs.

[Fat_Sunny]

No matter what system you have, people will always complains. The bottom line is that the U.S. has one of the lowest life expectancy rates in the industrialized world. The Norwegian countries are tops, not only because of their great healthcare system but for their high levels of education and income.


In Norway, 99 percent of the population can read and write, there are 413 doctors per 100,000 citizens, the average life expectancy is 78.4 years, and the Norwegians are even wealthier than ever before. The famous Nordic social welfare state remains efficient and provides the Norwegians with a first class health, education and benefits system, which is financed through their taxes.

It Is In No Way Valid To Compare The USA And Norway. Norway Has A Lousy 4.5 Million People (HALF Of New Jersey's Population, Or The Same As Minnesota). 100% Of Norwegians Are White. 86% Are The Same Religion (Lutheran).

It Is A TINY Country Of Homogeneous People. If You Want To Compare Their Stats, Compare Them With Upper New England (Maine+Vermont+New Hampshire), Which Is Also About 4 Million People And All White. That Is A Valid Comparison.

[TheMojoPin]

I just can't get behind a state run health care system. Do you trust the government with your health? I certaintly don't. If we stop nationalized health care, we can save money on taxes. That money can be used to donate to charitable organizations to help with health care costs.

There's so much about this that makes so little sense.

[MrPink]

It Is In No Way Valid To Compare The USA And Norway. Norway Has A Lousy 4.5 Million People (HALF Of New Jersey's Population, Or The Same As Minnesota). 100% Of Norwegians Are White. 86% Are The Same Religion (Lutheran).

It Is A TINY Country Of Homogeneous People. If You Want To Compare Their Stats, Compare Them With Upper New England (Maine+Vermont+New Hampshire), Which Is Also About 4 Million People And All White. That Is A Valid Comparison.

I remember writing about that in my Comparative Economic Systems class last semester!

[Fat_Sunny]

IF ONE MORE MOTHER FUCKER CALLS ME "MINIDICK" I WILL GO TO YOUR HOUSE AND CUT YOU FROM STEM TO STERN! I DO BELIEVE OUR MOD SAID "NO PERSONAL ATTACKS!" All of you always cry about "hiding behind fake screen names," while your own names are obviously not real. Mine, on the other hand is my REAL NAME and I don't appreciate it being belittled.

We all know your legal name is not Fat Sunny, and yet I still refrain from calling you a "Fat Retard," or "Fat Idiot who would suck W's cock and pay for the privilege." I'd appreciate the same respect.

Jd- Here Is One Of Your Wonderful, Non-Personal Attacks, And Respectful Posts:

"All of you sons of bitches who think you are so f**king cool, ronfez.net veterans, all the "faves" around here need to stop coming on here late at night all drunk and talking sh*t. Stugots, weekapaugz, etcetera, GO FUCK YOURSELVES RIGHT IN THE ASS. If you can't handle the booze, then stop drinking it and go to AA, assholes. Suck my fat cock. Wait until after I have sex, though - maybe you'll get to do that someday instead of making yourself laugh typing insults all night in a drunken stupor in your lonely efficiency apartment.

Ignoring ME? I didn't start the shit! You drunken faggots did! Eat shit and die! I was minding my own business, being positive, and enjoying the buddays! Suck it all night long, bitches! I don't give a fuck that you're "popular" around here. Suck it, jerks!


With Apologies To The Serious Readers Of This Thread For This Slight Detour. The Record Needs To Be Straight, Though.

[Fat_Sunny]

I remember writing about that in my Comparative Economic Systems class last semester!

F_S Didn't Plagarize Your Paper. Honest!

[Bulldogcakes]

No matter what system you have, people will always complains. The bottom line is that the U.S. has one of the lowest life expectancy rates in the industrialized world. The Norwegian countries are tops, not only because of their great healthcare system but for their high levels of education and income.

An interesting read: Nordic Countries Best place to Live in the World (http://www.scandinavica.com/culture/society/UNreport.htm).

A couple of quotes:

A successful community is not that which has one wealthy member and nine living in poverty, but that one where all members of the community have succeeded in achieving a high standard of living.

In Norway, 99 percent of the population can read and write, there are 413 doctors per 100,000 citizens, the average life expectancy is 78.4 years, and the Norwegians are even wealthier than ever before. The famous Nordic social welfare state remains efficient and provides the Norwegians with a first class health, education and benefits system, which is financed through their taxes.

However the Norwegian society is the most developed in the world, the average Norwegian is still known to complain nonetheless. The current discussion topics in Norway range among the waiting lists for medical care, the shortage of nursing homes and the cuts in police and school budgets.

Which is why the computer this is being posted on, the internet, the Light Bulb, Skyscrapers, Kodak Camera, the escalator, the elevator, Fiber optics, Artificial heart, defibrillator, product bar coding, Human Genome project, Power tools, Oil well, Lasers, the electric fan, Telegraph, sewing machine, Automobile, Polio Vaccine and a thousand others all came from Nordic countries.

Oh no, thats right. They didn't. Never mind.


BTW-Have you ever BEEN to Norway? One of the most depressing places on earth. Ask GVAC.

[Bulldogcakes]

Double post

Fuck

[RogerPodacter]

I dont want to sound pompous here, and i prob will. But if a family has 1 million, they arent millionaires. Nor with 2 million. That money goes very quickly when divided up between a couple siblings, and then 55% to the government. I realize that there are so many people with close to nothing, but why should the harder workers be penalized for that?

[Bulldogcakes]

I dont want to sound pompous here, and i prob will. But if a family has 1 million, they arent millionaires. Nor with 2 million. That money goes very quickly when divided up between a couple siblings, and then 55% to the government. I realize that there are so many people with close to nothing, but why should the harder workers be penalized for that?

Not with the price of NYC real estate. A medium priced home is around 750 grand, throw in a pension and an IRA and you're there.

PLus, why is it that if you have more than 2 mil that the Government is entitled to 45-55% of it? After paying taxes your whole life?

[Jujubees2]

Not with the price of NYC real estate. A medium priced home is around 750 grand, throw in a pension and an IRA and you're there.

PLus, why is it that if you have more than 2 mil that the Government is entitled to 45-55% of it? After paying taxes your whole life?

From our own IRS:
Most gifts are not subject to the gift tax and most estates are not subject to the estate tax. (Only about 2% of all estates are subject to the estate tax).

And you pay if AFTER you die. Can't take it with you.

[Jujubees2]

Which is why the computer this is being posted on, the internet, the Light Bulb, Skyscrapers, Kodak Camera, the escalator, the elevator, Fiber optics, Artificial heart, defibrillator, product bar coding, Human Genome project, Power tools, Oil well, Lasers, the electric fan, Telegraph, sewing machine, Automobile, Polio Vaccine and a thousand others all came from Nordic countries.

Oh no, thats right. They didn't. Never mind.


BTW-Have you ever BEEN to Norway? One of the most depressing places on earth. Ask GVAC.

Maybe so, but they must be doing something right.

[RogerPodacter]

Not with the price of NYC real estate. A medium priced home is around 750 grand, throw in a pension and an IRA and you're there.

PLus, why is it that if you have more than 2 mil that the Government is entitled to 45-55% of it? After paying taxes your whole life?

exactly. That money was already taxed...sometimes 3 times! the government shouldnt be entitled to it just because you worked hard your whole life and have some cash.

From our own IRS:
Most gifts are not subject to the gift tax and most estates are not subject to the estate tax. (Only about 2% of all estates are subject to the estate tax).

And you pay if AFTER you die. Can't take it with you.

No, but your family can take it. put it this way, when i die, i want my FAMILY to keep my hard earned money, not the federal government.

[Jujubees2]

exactly. That money was already taxed...sometimes 3 times! the government shouldnt be entitled to it just because you worked hard your whole life and have some cash.



No, but your family can take it. put it this way, when i die, i want my FAMILY to keep my hard earned money, not the federal government.

So then you don't believe that you have to work hard to get ahead. All you have to do is have a parent who works hard and you can get ahead by inheriting his/her money. Ah, George W. loves you.

Oh yeah, and your wife can have it all without paying a dime in taxes (but not your life partner).

[TheMojoPin]

So then you don't believe that you have to work hard to get ahead. All you have to do is have a parent who works hard and you can get ahead by inheriting his/her money. Ah, George W. loves you.

Oh yeah, and your wife can have it all without paying a dime in taxes (but not your life partner).

Dude, I'm as lefty as they come and I find the idea of taking family money just because the person that originally earned it as repulsive and not justifiable at all. It's taxation just for the sake of taxation. Wouldn't it be nice if the government spent more attempting to regulate and monitor the taxation of active major corporations as opposed to the finances of someone who did alright for themselves and then dies?

[Jujubees2]

Dude, I'm as lefty as they come and I find the idea of taking family money just because the person that originally earned it as repulsive and not justifiable at all. It's taxation just for the sake of taxation. Wouldn't it be nice if the government spent more attempting to regulate and monitor the taxation of active major corporations as opposed to the finances of someone who did alright for themselves and then dies?

In a perfect world, yes, I would love to see the corporations pay their fair share so that taxes may go down for all of us, but we all know that will never happen.

[RogerPodacter]

So then you don't believe that you have to work hard to get ahead. All you have to do is have a parent who works hard and you can get ahead by inheriting his/her money. Ah, George W. loves you.

Oh yeah, and your wife can have it all without paying a dime in taxes (but not your life partner).

I DO believe in working hard to get ahead. Thats why i got a BS in Engineering from a big ten university, and now am making 6 figures at 27 years old. And when i retire with some money saved, i will want it to go to my kids rather than the government, just as my grandfather wanted when he died.

Granted, there are the "Paris Hiltons" out there. But I (and many others) choose to work hard, i dont ask for free hand outs or anything. But if my family is gonna work hard, i would rather that stay in the family then go to the government who will just piss it away on wars and other crap.

[Bulldogcakes]

I DO believe in working hard to get ahead. Thats why i got a BS in Engineering from a big ten university, and now am making 6 figures at 27 years old. And when i retire with some money saved, i will want it to go to my kids rather than the government, just as my grandfather wanted when he died.

Granted, there are the "Paris Hiltons" out there. But I (and many others) choose to work hard, i dont ask for free hand outs or anything. But if my family is gonna work hard, i would rather that stay in the family then go to the government who will just piss it away on wars and other crap.

Or you can do a Warren Buffet and leave some money to your family and the rest to various charities that can do work that lessens the need for big government programs. If, of course Uncle Sam lets you.

Funny, if any business grabbed people's money like this, they'd be called greedy. Lawyers get penalized severely for double billing. This is triple taxation, I call that greed.
It also covers the true cost of government, if they taxed us all once at the source, we'd see the actual cost of government. So instead they charge lower rates and tax and re tax the same funds. Because they don't want you to see how much they're really taking.

[Bulldogcakes]

So then you don't believe that you have to work hard to get ahead. All you have to do is have a parent who works hard and you can get ahead by inheriting his/her money. Ah, George W. loves you.

Oh yeah, and your wife can have it all without paying a dime in taxes (but not your life partner).

You cant be serious. You're knocking him for wanting to keep his own money, yet you want the state to take his money to give you stuff that you haven't worked for. And HE'S the one looking for a handout?

[Midkiff]

Jd- Here Is One Of Your Wonderful, Non-Personal Attacks, And Respectful Posts:

Stugots, weekapaugz, etcetera,

[SIZE="3"]With Apologies To The Serious Readers Of This Thread For This Slight Detour. The Record Needs To Be Straight, Though.

Notice, Fat_Sunny, I called them by their names. Also notice, that was defensive, not offensive, just like this occasion. I AM a serious reader of this thread. I'm not the one making dick jokes.

[Snacks]

Not with the price of NYC real estate. A medium priced home is around 750 grand, throw in a pension and an IRA and you're there.

PLus, why is it that if you have more than 2 mil that the Government is entitled to 45-55% of it? After paying taxes your whole life?

From what I have read it is for 2mil on each inheratance. So if 5 people split 7 mil then there is no tax. Its not a total worth of 2 mil.

Plus I do agree taxes suck, but if you listen to warren buffet he has said many times with all the money he has made him nor his company really ever pays taxes. He has stated there are so many loop wholes and write offs that the rich really dont pay what they should. The real tax paid comes from the top 2 % but the bottom of that top 2% and from the middle class.

If the 2nd richest man in the world admits to not paying enough taxes maybe he knows something we dont?

[Fat_Sunny]

If the 2nd richest man in the world admits to not paying enough taxes maybe he knows something we dont?

He Knows That He COULD Pay All The Money He Thinks Would Be "Enough" To The US Government. The Government Allows You To Voluntarily Pay In Extra Any Time You Want To. They Would Gladly Accept A Voluntary Contribution From Gates Or Buffet Of 1 Billion Or 5 Billion Or 25 Billion.

But Guess What, Gates And Buffet Do NOT Make These Extra Contributions To The US Government. Instead, They Set Up Charities That THEY Control So That THEY Decide Where The Money Goes. They Trust Their Own Judgement To Spend The Money Wisely, Rather Than The US Government's Judgement.

Which Is Exactly The Way Those Of Us On The Other Side Of The Issue Feel.

[RogerPodacter]

There is a difference between the RICH, and rich. Someone like Warren Buffet is RICH. He can give millions to charity. A family who has 1-3 million can give to charity, but not on the same level as a super rich person. I dont know, i'm not trying to stir the pot. just saying that people have this "impression" of someone if they have a few bucks...

[RogerPodacter]

From what I have read it is for 2mil on each inheratance. So if 5 people split 7 mil then there is no tax. Its not a total worth of 2 mil.


Thats absolutely wrong. It doesnt matter how many people split it, its the total value at death.

[Bulldogcakes]

From what I have read it is for 2mil on each inheratance. So if 5 people split 7 mil then there is no tax. Its not a total worth of 2 mil.

Plus I do agree taxes suck, but if you listen to warren buffet he has said many times with all the money he has made him nor his company really ever pays taxes. He has stated there are so many loop wholes and write offs that the rich really dont pay what they should. The real tax paid comes from the top 2 % but the bottom of that top 2% and from the middle class.

If the 2nd richest man in the world admits to not paying enough taxes maybe he knows something we dont?

That is completely untrue. Even if he gets all of his income from investments and only pays Cap Gains on them, he's still subject to a 15% tax. And people who earn high regular incomes are taxed at 35% Federal (plus State, plus Local) with the same deductions the rest of us have (Mortgage interest, etc). This notion that the rich don't pay taxes is an accepted "truth" on the Left with no evidence to back it up whatsoever.

Here are the actual facts

Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_United_States)

* The top 0.1% of taxpayers by income pay 17.4% of all federal taxes (earning 9.1% of the income).
* The top 1% of taxpayers by income pay 36.9% of all federal taxes (earning 19% of the income).
* The top 5% of taxpayers pay 57.1% of all federal taxes (earning 33.4% of the income).
* The bottom 50% pay 3.3% of all individual income taxes (earning 13.4% of the income).

[Yerdaddy]

He Knows That He COULD Pay All The Money He Thinks Would Be "Enough" To The US Government. The Government Allows You To Voluntarily Pay In Extra Any Time You Want To. They Would Gladly Accept A Voluntary Contribution From Gates Or Buffet Of 1 Billion Or 5 Billion Or 25 Billion.

But Guess What, Gates And Buffet Do NOT Make These Extra Contributions To The US Government. Instead, They Set Up Charities That THEY Control So That THEY Decide Where The Money Goes. They Trust Their Own Judgement To Spend The Money Wisely, Rather Than The US Government's Judgement.

Which Is Exactly The Way Those Of Us On The Other Side Of The Issue Feel.

Well, not exactly. They pay their taxes and still have enough money left over to give literally billions to charities of their choosing. But they don’t bitch about paying their taxes in some crackpot theory that if we abolished government and privatized all of its responsibilities things would be better. In fact, Buffet makes the public case that the tax system unfairly favors him because, after loopholes he ends up paying the same tax rate as his secretary who makes about $40k per year. So the difference is that he’s honest about how things work.

[Yerdaddy]

That is completely untrue. Even if he gets all of his income from investments and only pays Cap Gains on them, he's still subject to a 15% tax. And people who earn high regular incomes are taxed at 35% Federal (plus State, plus Local) with the same deductions the rest of us have (Mortgage interest, etc). This notion that the rich don't pay taxes is an accepted "truth" on the Left with no evidence to back it up whatsoever.

Here are the actual facts

Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_United_States)

* The top 0.1% of taxpayers by income pay 17.4% of all federal taxes (earning 9.1% of the income).
* The top 1% of taxpayers by income pay 36.9% of all federal taxes (earning 19% of the income).
* The top 5% of taxpayers pay 57.1% of all federal taxes (earning 33.4% of the income).
* The bottom 50% pay 3.3% of all individual income taxes (earning 13.4% of the income).

And, even with this progressive tax scale, the rich are still getting richer than ever. (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/29/business/29tax.html?em&ex=1175486400&en=41ee6518da6ceb1b&ei=5087%0A)

Income inequality grew significantly in 2005, with the top 1 percent of Americans — those with incomes that year of more than $348,000 — receiving their largest share of national income since 1928, analysis of newly released tax data shows.

The top 10 percent, roughly those earning more than $100,000, also reached a level of income share not seen since before the Depression.

While total reported income in the United States increased almost 9 percent in 2005, the most recent year for which such data is available, average incomes for those in the bottom 90 percent dipped slightly compared with the year before, dropping $172, or 0.6 percent.

The gains went largely to the top 1 percent, whose incomes rose to an average of more than $1.1 million each, an increase of more than $139,000, or about 14 percent.

The new data also shows that the top 300,000 Americans collectively enjoyed almost as much income as the bottom 150 million Americans. Per person, the top group received 440 times as much as the average person in the bottom half earned, nearly doubling the gap from 1980.

The disparities may be even greater for another reason. The Internal Revenue Service estimates that it is able to accurately tax 99 percent of wage income but that it captures only about 70 percent of business and investment income, most of which flows to upper-income individuals, because not everybody accurately reports such figures.

Mr. Greenstein’s organization will release a report today showing that for Americans in the middle, the share of income taken by federal taxes has been essentially unchanged across four decades. By comparison, it has fallen by half for those at the very top of the income ladder.

But Snacks was wrong that Buffet has said he doesn't pay taxes. He says he feels he doesn't pay his fair share. He also says he owes his wealth to this American system and by making more he should have to pay a greater share. He supports the progressive tax system and thinks it should be more progressive.

[Jujubees2]

But Snacks was wrong that Buffet has said he doesn't pay taxes. He says he feels he doesn't pay his fair share. He also says he owes his wealth to this American system and by making more he should have to pay a greater share. He supports the progressive tax system and thinks it should be more progressive.

Thanks for another insightful post Yerdaddy. I love Warren Buffet. I saw a program on him and how he still lives in the same house in Nebraska and drives a regular car. You would never think he was as rich as he is.

Every time someone says that they worked hard and made some scratch but think they pay too much in taxes, I think of how, unless they made their money in a vacuum, they owe their wealth to the American system.

[Snacks]

And, even with this progressive tax scale, the rich are still getting richer than ever. (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/29/business/29tax.html?em&ex=1175486400&en=41ee6518da6ceb1b&ei=5087%0A)







But Snacks was wrong that Buffet has said he doesn't pay taxes. He says he feels he doesn't pay his fair share. He also says he owes his wealth to this American system and by making more he should have to pay a greater share. He supports the progressive tax system and thinks it should be more progressive.

I trust you are corret, so I'm wrong and I will admit it. But what he is saying is pretty close to what I was saying. The fact that the rich really dont pay what they should and the regularr folks do.
I think thats the problem with people who vote for republicans and what they stand for. They listen to the talking heads from the right and thiink they all fit under their umbrella. What they dont understand is they need to make $250k or more per year to benifit from Republican tax laws.

Nj is about to pass property taxes and they are giving a larger relief to people who earn less. If you make up to 100k a year you will get 20% relief, 101k -150k 15% relief and 151k - 250 k you will get a 10% relief. If you make more then 250K then no relief. I'm fine with that b/c if your making more then 250K your probably already living pretty good. Not to say 250K is super rich and you cant struggle at times, but you still make enough money to live almost anywhere nice in the state and not worry.

[foodcourtdruide]

I DO believe in working hard to get ahead. Thats why i got a BS in Engineering from a big ten university, and now am making 6 figures at 27 years old. And when i retire with some money saved, i will want it to go to my kids rather than the government, just as my grandfather wanted when he died.

Granted, there are the "Paris Hiltons" out there. But I (and many others) choose to work hard, i dont ask for free hand outs or anything. But if my family is gonna work hard, i would rather that stay in the family then go to the government who will just piss it away on wars and other crap.

I think the point is that working hard doesn't equate wealth. You were able to go to a big ten university, however for socio-economic reasons others may not be able to. You may reply by saying you were poor growing up, but that's irrelevant to this argument. Not everyone will have the same chances you had.

My point is that there are hard working people that cannot afford health care in this country.

[tapedknuckles]

I live in a country very near by that has universal health care. Yes, its more equitable, and yes you can't get everything you want unless you're loaded ( ain't that the truth about everything in life)?

What will change if universal health care is adopted is the relative prices of everything. Taxes will be more, but you won't have to deal with pissy HMO's. Everywhere you turn and pay for consumer products, you'll pay more - but then you won't have to worry about losing your job and therefore access to the medical system. Also, just maybe your car assembly plants won't leave for offshore because they can't afford health benefits.

Also, you won't have multiple insurance companies loading up the overhead by billing each other for everything little thing.

All said, universality is probably the better way to go.... but rest assured there'll still be plenty of moaning and bitching.

[Bulldogcakes]

And, even with this progressive tax scale, the rich are still getting richer than ever. (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/29/business/29tax.html?em&ex=1175486400&en=41ee6518da6ceb1b&ei=5087%0A)


Which proves that progressive taxation doesn't achieve the goals it intends to. Which is what us conservatives said all along. But thats another big discussion. This thread started out as National Health Care, and its already been derailed once.



But Snacks was wrong that Buffet has said he doesn't pay taxes. He says he feels he doesn't pay his fair share. He also says he owes his wealth to this American system and by making more he should have to pay a greater share. He supports the progressive tax system and thinks it should be more progressive.

Yes,thats exactly what he's said. And it tells me he knows more about business than he does about politics. He's giving most of his $ to the Gates foundation, and I think it will do far more good there than it would in Washington.

BTW-He could voluntarily give his fortune to Uncle Sam, you know. If he really, in his heart of hearts, believed that.

[Yerdaddy]

Which proves that progressive taxation doesn't achieve the goals it intends to. Which is what us conservatives said all along. But thats another big discussion. This thread started out as National Health Care, and its already been derailed once.

What do think those goals are? I don't think the progressive tax system has a goal at all. It has a principle, which is that, the less money you make the higher percentage of your income goes to pay for necessities like food, shelter and healthcare. So a poor person who pays the same tax rate as a rich person has more of his necessities taxed rather than luxury goods. Cut rich and poor taxes equally and the rich have more money for luxury goods and the poor have more money for necessities.

Damn that was convuluted but you get the point.


Yes,thats exactly what he's said. And it tells me he knows more about business than he does about politics. He's giving most of his $ to the Gates foundation, and I think it will do far more good there than it would in Washington.

BTW-He could voluntarily give his fortune to Uncle Sam, you know. If he really, in his heart of hearts, believed that.[/QUOTE]

What the Gates Foundation does and what out taxes pay for are two different things. You can't compare the two.

What are your thoughts on this?

What’s the One Thing Big Business and the Left Have in Common? (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/01/magazine/01Healthcare.t.html?pagewanted=print)

The greed of the health care industry has hurt other businesses so bad that they're becoming more and more in favor of universal health care. I think that says alot about what the problem is, regardles of the solution: as long as the consumer choices in health care are not made by the consumers themselves - they SHOULD be made by the doctors and the patients, but the insurance companies are making more of those decisions instead - health care in America is NOT a free market. And the industry has been exploiting the fact that government has pretended that the private health care sector is free and allowed the consumers - ALL Americans to get fucked by the industry. Of course, just like with Enron, there's no possibility of change until businesses start fucking over businesses. Then we've got a problem that government has to deal with. It's a fucking farce.

[The Jays]

http://www.slate.com/id/2220534/
Reid helpfully divides health care systems into four models:

Bismarck. As the name suggests, the Bismarck model is found in Germany, and also in Japan, France, Belgium, Austria, and, "to a degree," in Latin America. Doctors, hospitals, and insurers are all private, and insurance is funded jointly by employers and employees, as it is in the United States. But the insurance companies are nonprofit, and coverage, fees, and medical services are all tightly regulated by the state.

Beveridge. Named for Lord William Beveridge, who with Aneurin Bevan created Britain's National Health Service. Also found in Spain, Italy, Hong Kong, and much of Scandinavia. Instead of private insurers, the government pays all medical bills. Hospitals are typically owned by the government, and doctors are usually (though not always) salaried government employees.

National Health Insurance. A blend of Bismarck and Beveridge found in Canada, Taiwan, and South Korea. Hospitals and doctors are private, but the government pays.

Out-Of-Pocket. The de facto system of the Third World. Since most of the population can't afford health insurance, medical care is typically achieved through international charity or (most often) not at all.

Reid explains that for most working people in the U.S., the health care model is a modified Bismarck in which insurance is for-profit and regulation is scattershot. Essentially the U.S. has taken a workable foreign model and ruined it by rendering it "uniquely American." Within the conservative subculture of the military (including veterans), the U.S. health care model is the highly pinko Beveridge. For everyone over 65, the model is National Health Insurance (Medicare even got its name from Canada's single-payer program). For the 45 million American who have no health insurance, the model is Out-Of-Pocket; for these unfortunate souls, Reid writes, the U.S. may as well be "Cambodia, or Burkina Faso, or rural India."

[A.J.]

http://www.slate.com/id/2220534/
Beveridge. Named for Lord William Beveridge, who with Aneurin Bevan created Britain's National Health Service. Also found in Spain, Italy, Hong Kong, and much of Scandinavia. Instead of private insurers, the government pays all medical bills. Hospitals are typically owned by the government, and doctors are usually (though not always) salaried government employees.


The last thing we want is to be at the mercy of government employees. Trust me.

[foodcourtdruide]

My wifes dad still lives in Japan and he recently had his lung explode and almost died. The medical coverage he received was top notch, very fast and incredibly cheap. It made me extremely jealous.

[Misteriosa]

ive been reading thing thread and some very valid and some very rediculous points have been made. working in the health care industry (i work in a doctor's office for a foster care agency - hows that for a weird setup), ive seen what the pros and cons medicare system first hand.

maybe i missed it, but my one question is: why hasnt anyone brought up that Medicaid picks up the sick patients that the insurance companies wont cover? I would think that being forced to cover the sickest among us (those deemed ineligible by "pre-existing conditions" such as diabetes, asthma, etc by the HMOs/Private insurers) would inflate the budget so. i would think that by doing that, Medicaid is being used by the HMOs as a subsidy of some kind, a way to clean their slate of sick people, and keep their profits up.

:shrug: i hope i phrased that correctly. its just my own lowly opinion/observation. im not an economist.

[foodcourtdruide]

ive been reading thing thread and some very valid and some very rediculous points have been made. working in the health care industry (i work in a doctor's office for a foster care agency - hows that for a weird setup), ive seen what the pros and cons medicare system first hand.

maybe i missed it, but my one question is: why hasnt anyone brought up that Medicaid picks up the sick patients that the insurance companies wont cover? I would think that being forced to cover the sickest among us (those deemed ineligible by "pre-existing conditions" such as diabetes, asthma, etc by the HMOs/Private insurers) would inflate the budget so. i would think that by doing that, Medicaid is being used by the HMOs as a subsidy of some kind, a way to clean their slate of sick people, and keep their profits up.

:shrug: i hope i phrased that correctly. its just my own lowly opinion/observation. im not an economist.

This is a great point. It shows how insane our health care system is.

[silera]

I'd like to point out that having insurance, in it's current state, will still bankrupt families. I'll raise my hand and say, we had insurance and we were wiped out. First major illness, coupled by unexpected job loss and medical expenses that eat away at everything. The scenarios of charitable organizations picking up the slack is a fairy tale at best.

We all work. The idea that America is full of people not working is again, a fallacy. Even using the U6 data, the US unemployment rate up until recently at less than 15% for a decade. 90% of Americans don't even fall into the category of wealthy and technically, I don't consider 250K wealthy. The tax arguments are very valid for those that happen to fall in the 100-250k range, but oddly I generally see arguments from this camp regarding to the effect of elimination of taxation for themselves, and belittling those that don't earn as much as they do. I assume it's because they aspire to one day reach the million mark.

Those that don't fall in that range, and can somehow find a way to side not with the disparate number of people that have been marginalized by the growing income gap, I can only assume are woefully ignorant and misguided, or batshit insane.

That being said, if universal healthcare becomes reality, I would expect the same type of issues we face with the public school system. I think we are capable of providing excellent public education and excellent public health care. We managed to create the biggest and most efficient military in the world, maybe we just need to get our priorities realligned.

[A.J.]

We managed to create the biggest and most efficient military in the world

You're welcome!

[Serpico1103]

I dont want to sound pompous here, and i prob will. But if a family has 1 million, they arent millionaires. Nor with 2 million. That money goes very quickly when divided up between a couple siblings, and then 55% to the government. I realize that there are so many people with close to nothing, but why should the harder workers be penalized for that?

The harder worker, the one built the wealth is dead, so you mean why should their heirs be punished.
Avoiding estate tax is the simplest thing. Trusts, transfers before death, and other methods can be used to avoid estate tax. Estate planning is an industry built on helping people with some wealth to avoid paying their "fair" share.
You have to understand that you will find little sympathy for people who didn't earn the money complaining about taxes on the money they didn't earn.

The average actual tax rate for the top 1% was 22% in 2006. About the same rate I pay. And I am middle class at best, not near the top 1%.

[LordJezo]

Can't wait for a healthcare system just like Canada!

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/q2jijuj1ysw&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/q2jijuj1ysw&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

It's everything Obama has promised! It will be happiness and joy for everyone.

Three years just to get a family doctor! Awesome!

[Syd]

http://www.lshtm.ac.uk/news/2008/usdeaths.html

New study: US ranks last among other industrialized nations on preventable deaths

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/bankruptcy_study.html

Illness and medical bills caused half of the 1,458,000 personal bankruptcies in 2001, according to a study published by the journal Health Affairs

So, even if they have to wait longer they get far superior care and don't go bankrupt from it. Never knew you were so easily led by a carrot on a string by marketing firms contracted by health insurance companies LordJezo. What's it like to be a puppet?

[Syd]

What will change if universal health care is adopted is the relative prices of everything. Taxes will be more, but you won't have to deal with pissy HMO's.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1439/877738792_0266349491_o.jpg

All things being equal, our taxes will remain relatively the same and/or go down as we already pay more per capita than our equivalent countries like the UK and Canada.

[HBox]

Like we don't have waits here. Those of us with insurance wait perahps a little less than those overseas depending on the procedure. Those of us without insurance wait FOREVER. Infinity kind of drags down the average.

[HBox]

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1439/877738792_0266349491_o.jpg

All things being equal, our taxes will remain relatively the same and/or go down as we already pay more per capita than our equivalent countries like the UK and Canada.

Not at first. The most wealthy in th country are having their taxes raised in the current version of the bill to pay for it. The hope is over time the reforms will slow down the rapidly rising cost of health care and the saved costs will eventually pay for themselves. But this will require a significant initial investment.

[west milly Tom]

National health care will lead to rationing, and eventually hoarding. I have great insurance, which I pay for, and I never have to wait for my provider to approve anything. I have had major procedures, including plastic surgery, in the past two years and I didn't have one problem. I enjoy the fact that I with my doctors control my health care not a government automaton. National health care is already a disaster and its only in its infancy. Nobody really knows how much it will cost, or who will pay for it other than the self sufficient people who don't need it. Our government doesn't run with efficiency. Why do people think things will go smoother with government intervention? This is the worst, by far, of all the Obama policies.

[TheMojoPin]

Rationing and hoarding of what?

And how do you control your health care?

[angrymissy]

That's wonderful for you, lose your job and you'll be fucked. Your provider DID have to approve those surgeries, your doctors office handles that. You don't just get to pick and choose surgery without approval. I have great insurance too, but when I was 23 and temping with no insurance, I got to splint my own broken finger because I couldn't afford to have it fixed.

[west milly Tom]

Rationing and hoarding of what?

And how do you control your health care?



Medicines and services.

My doctor and I make decisions about my care not a governmental agent.

[angrymissy]

Medicines and services.

My doctor and I make decisions about my care not a governmental agent.

If you think your health insurance isn't involved in those decisions, I got a bridge to sell you...

[Syd]

National health care will lead to rationing, and eventually hoarding. I have great insurance, which I pay for, and I never have to wait for my provider to approve anything. I have had major procedures, including plastic surgery, in the past two years and I didn't have one problem. I enjoy the fact that I with my doctors control my health care not a government automaton. National health care is already a disaster and its only in its infancy. Nobody really knows how much it will cost, or who will pay for it other than the self sufficient people who don't need it. Our government doesn't run with efficiency. Why do people think things will go smoother with government intervention. This is the worst, by far, of all the Obama policies.

You realize citizens in countries with socialized healthcare lead healthier lives than Americans right?

And our government does run with efficiency, the nearest thing to UHC we have right now is VA healthcare which consistently rates far higher in terms of patient reviews, mortality rates and cost (VA spends pennies on private healthcares dollars)

Our life expectancies are lower than most other first world countries and on top of that I believe last year or the year before our life expectancy was shortened.

There is nothing good about the American system unless you're a significant shareholder of a health insurer.

[HBox]

National health care will lead to rationing, and eventually hoarding. I have great insurance, which I pay for, and I never have to wait for my provider to approve anything. I have had major procedures, including plastic surgery, in the past two years and I didn't have one problem. I enjoy the fact that I with my doctors control my health care not a government automaton. National health care is already a disaster and its only in its infancy. Nobody really knows how much it will cost, or who will pay for it other than the self sufficient people who don't need it. Our government doesn't run with efficiency. Why do people think things will go smoother with government intervention? This is the worst, by far, of all the Obama policies.

You are living in a fantasy world. First of all, we already have rationing. Just because care is rationed through income and you and your great insurance aren't affected doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And you and your doctor don't fully control your care. Again, just because your insurance hasn't rejected a procedure that your doctor wants and that you can't afford on your own doesn't mean it can't happen to you or doesn't happen to others.

Medicare and Medicaid run with vastly more efficiency than ANY insurance company. Their administrative costs are tiny compared to any insurance company. If Medicare was truly a disaster it would be gone. It serves the most powerful political constituency in the country. And yet see what happens to any politician who favors eliminating it in favor of private options.

I'm glad you haven't had any issues with you insurance. Dealing with that shit on top of medical problems drains you in every way you can possibly be drained. But there wouldn't be such a groundswell in favor of reform if most people had your experience.

[Syd]

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/3194/lifeexpectancymap.gif

[west milly Tom]

That's wonderful for you, lose your job and you'll be fucked. Your provider DID have to approve those surgeries, your doctors office handles that. You don't just get to pick and choose surgery without approval. I have great insurance too, but when I was 23 and temping with no insurance, I got to splint my own broken finger because I couldn't afford to have it fixed.



Boo hoo. Why should I have to pay for your broken finger. Its not my fault you have a shit job either but I'm sure I paid for some of your education.

[Syd]

Boo hoo. Why should I have to pay for your broken finger. Its not my fault you have a shit job either but I'm sure I paid for some of your education.

because people in society contribute to you in one form or another and it is in our own best interest to help others since they will in turn help you

sort of the whole basic notion of society

[Furtherman]

Its not my fault you have a shit job either but I'm sure I paid for some of your education.

Someone should have paid for yours - read her reply again.

[Jujubees2]

Boo hoo. Why should I have to pay for your broken finger. Its not my fault you have a shit job either but I'm sure I paid for some of your education.

We have a winner...

http://cpol.army.mil/library/mer/awards/fisher500.jpg

[foodcourtdruide]

Boo hoo. Why should I have to pay for your broken finger. Its not my fault you have a shit job either but I'm sure I paid for some of your education.

This is why libertarians will never be a serious party in this country... thankfully.

[LordJezo]

[color=navy][size=2]Not at first. The most wealthy in th country are having their taxes raised in the current version of the bill to pay for it

Yay!

Redistribution of wealth! Punish those who are deemed too successful! The poor deserve the money of the rich!

[TheMojoPin]

You have a weird idea of punishment and wealth redistribution.

[foodcourtdruide]

Yay!

Redistribution of wealth! Punish those who are deemed too successful! The poor deserve the money of the rich!

And the poor deserve to die in the streets. Right?

[angrymissy]

Boo hoo. Why should I have to pay for your broken finger. Its not my fault you have a shit job either but I'm sure I paid for some of your education.

Because we're human beings.

You didn't pay shit for my education, thanks, and I don't have a shit job.

I'm sure you'll take this same approach if you're ever in a situation where you need help.

Why should I have to pay for the roads that you drive on if I don't drive on them? Fuck bridges, let them fall down.

[Misteriosa]

hooray selfishness and boo to the golden rule. :down:

un fucking real

[angrymissy]

hooray selfishness and boo to the golden rule. :down:

un fucking real

Yup, if you are poor and get sick, you should die, apparently. Might cost someone else $1 out of their taxes for the year, but that $1 is worth more than someone's life.

[HBox]

This is why libertarians will never be a serious party in this country... thankfully.

:thumbup: a thousand times :thumbup:

[angrymissy]

Oh, and to all the assumptions "I probably paid for your, you and your shitty job"....

My husband and I are close to hitting that magical "rich" mark of a tax increase. My husband is self-employed and pays OUT THE ASS in taxes. I pay out the ass in taxes. Our tax bill was fucking mid 5 figures this year for Federal alone.

I'm not an asshole though, and I wouldn't want people dying in the streets, or going bankrupt due to medical problems, or suffering, so yeah, big whoop, my taxes will go towards a better life for Americans.

Redistribution of Wealth! Socialism! NWO! OMG!

How about fucking taking care of your own people in the most basic of manner? Or do you need that precious dollar to stuff another Applebees meal into your face?

Helping others in that manner helps the whole fucking country as a whole. Affordable healthcare prevents bankruptcy, prevents people from losing their jobs, from losing their homes.

Someone can do everything right, good job, good insurance, and be fucking destroyed simply by 1 medical emergency.

[A.J.]

Yup, if you are poor and get sick, you should die, apparently. Might cost someone else $1 out of their taxes for the year, but that $1 is worth more than someone's life.

Hero smokers like us are helping to foot the bill Missy.

[foodcourtdruide]

Oh, and to all the assumptions "I probably paid for your, you and your shitty job"....

My husband and I are close to hitting that magical "rich" mark of a tax increase. My husband is self-employed and pays OUT THE ASS in taxes. I pay out the ass in taxes. Our tax bill was fucking mid 5 figures this year for Federal alone.

I'm not an asshole though, and I wouldn't want people dying in the streets, or going bankrupt due to medical problems, or suffering, so yeah, big whoop, my taxes will go towards a better life for Americans.

I don't think you have to defend yourself to any of us. WMT was out of line with his comment, and has a political philosophy that is becoming marginalized in this country.

[KatPw]

This interview with Bill Moyers (it aired Friday night I believe) is a much watch in terms of healthcare and the insurance industry.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07102009/watch2.html

This is a great article written by a Canadian regarding the healthcare in that country:
http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_12523427

[angrymissy]

I'm sick of hearing right wingers make assumptions like "I pay for your" "Go get your welfare check" to left wingers.

Guess what? Most liberals I know are fucking rich as shit. I seriously have a feeling the people bitching the most probably won't even be affected by any tax increase.

[angrymissy]

Hero smokers like us are helping to foot the bill Missy.

*cue Mariah Carey while I take a nice long drag*

[Misteriosa]

Someone can do everything right, good job, good insurance, and be fucking destroyed simply by 1 medical emergency.

this is what he fails to understand. he has been fortunate enough to not have that kind of medical emergency. i hope it never happens to him or anyone he loves, but i fear that may be the only way he'll change his views on the subject.

people do not deserve to be finanically ruined because they get sick. people do not deserve to die because they cant afford that surgery/treatment. to have that mindset is to give up your humanity.

[Misteriosa]

This interview with Bill Moyers (it aired Friday night I believe) is a much watch in terms of healthcare and the insurance industry.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07102009/watch2.html

This is a great article written by a Canadian regarding the healthcare in that country:
http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_12523427

I was just gonna post that, mind meld sister!! :clap:

awesome episode, btw (but any episode of the journal is awesome :o )

[underdog]

I'm sick of hearing right wingers make assumptions like "I pay for your" "Go get your welfare check" to left wingers.

Guess what? Most liberals I know are fucking rich as shit. I seriously have a feeling the people bitching the most probably won't even be affected by any tax increase.

Or the fact that EVERYONE pays for something everyone else uses. Paying for "defense" or paying to keep our roads barely paved = good. Paying for a fellow person's health =/= good. I don't get it.

[KatPw]

this is what he fails to understand. he has been fortunate enough to not have that kind of medical emergency. i hope it never happens to him or anyone he loves, but i fear that may be the only way he'll change his views on the subject.

people do not deserve to be finanically ruined because they get sick. people do not deserve to die because they cant afford that surgery/treatment. to have that mindset is to give up your humanity.

And how many people have insurance and still incur debt up the wazoo due to the astronomical cost. My parents were lucky enough to have insurance (Cigna) and Medicare part B. The bills we got for care after the insurance got done paying were still unreal. The amount of time I spent fighting with the hospitals, doctors and insurance companies was unimaginable to most people. It was like another job, and thankfully I had a kind boss that let me make phone calls during office hours. If you work a 9-5 job there is no way you can spend the time working through these systems without doing so on your boss' dime or taking vacation days. Just some examples: the hospital billed the insurance company (and when that got rejected the bill came to us) for tests, procedures and medications that they claim were done December 26, 27, 28, 29, and 30th. My dad died December 25th at 4am. How did they manage to do all these things while his body was in the morgue, funeral home and then in the ground? My mom's cardiac surgeon billed for the same triple-bypass twice, as did his partner who was not even present at the surgery.
Since I am the one who does all the insurance at my office I see the same shit in Dentistry. It's all a game and the only losers are the clients. I spend hours each week fixing the insurance companies mistakes.
Maybe I'll post more about my experiences with the healthcare system when my head stops pounding.

[boosterp]

This is a futile argument and I again point to the VA as an example of socialized health care in this country. Nearly $87 billion dollars, about 85% goes to health care alone for 300k veterans.

Imagine this on a much larger scale for all Americans... we can't afford it.

[KatPw]

This is a futile argument and I again point to the VA as an example of socialized health care in this country. Nearly $87 billion dollars, about 85% goes to health care alone for 300k veterans.

Imagine this on a much larger scale for all Americans... we can't afford it.

The VA claims that they treated 5.5 million people in 2008. Where does the 300k come from?

[Pitdoc]

When I was doing my clinical clerkships in medical school I took the opportunity to do them in England. I was in a town called Norwich, which is northeast of London. I learned a lot of things that are great with socialized medicine ,along with some reasons it won't fly here.

1. Resources are limited
Mind you,this was 91, but the hospital I was in had one CT scan, to cover an entire county. They had 2 ultrasound machines for the entire hospital . I was in a clinic with a cardiologist , when he told a patient that his tests came back and that he would be scheduled for a cardiac bypass...in about 8 months

2.The people APPRECIATE what they can get
That SAME patient stood up , and instead of cursing the doctor out , shook his hand, shook my hand , promised to take good care of himself , and left. All the patients there were extremely grateful for the care they could get, & amazingly, appreciated the medical staff . In fact the entire time I was there I only saw one patient who was complaining, & yes, he was an American .

3. People arent in it for the money there..
A doctor there who had practiced for 30 yrs, and was the head of his department, was making $60K a year . When I graduated from school I was making TWICE what he made my first year out. And they all made mostly the same. Doctors in this country sometimes make too damn much money .I'm speaking mostly of surgeons, radiologists , anesthesiologists . PRIMARY med docs dont make enough ( They work 60 hr wks for a third what a radiologist who works half as much ) .It's why we had a slowdown in medical school apps in the 90s, people thought they could make more money being scumbag stockbrokers.

4. People can't sue there

They have good tort reform in England. People who are screwed by malpractice are still reimbursed , but at a REAL amount, not 5 mil for " psychological damage" .I've been sued 3 times, EACH time being bullshit ( I once was sued by a patient I never even saw!) .All the suits were dropped before I went to court, but hundreds of thousands were spent while this shit was going through the courts . But I still do thousands of dollars in tests weekly because , well, I could be sued if this one insignificant ( but expensive) test might show something wrong .



I think that after we get national health care installed , peopel will see how much money theyre SAVING by not dealing with insurance companies. But I think those motherfuckers are gonna spend BILLIONS to get this killed,,&being the dumb hicks most Americans are , they'll probably win.


PS - To all you smokers making jokes. I see you guys 20 yrs down the road, and for some reason , you arent in such a good mood THEN.

[Syd]

This is a futile argument and I again point to the VA as an example of socialized health care in this country. Nearly $87 billion dollars, about 85% goes to health care alone for 300k veterans.

Imagine this on a much larger scale for all Americans... we can't afford it.

Accounts for the Veterans’ Health Administration, which runs the veterans’ hospital system and other programs, would receive $45.1 billion, roughly 11 percent more than fiscal 2009 levels and matching Obama’s request.

http://tucsoncitizen.com/veteranveritas/2009/06/19/veterans-affairs-budget/

$87bn huh? So, they spent nearly twice their entire budget that was allocated on healthcare and didn't bother to request that much for the following year. Given the increased expenses due to combat-related issues, that really isn't that much either as far as expenditure goes. Especially given that the money itself goes towards construction and things similar to that.

Plus, as noted with the other graph we already pay more publicly and privately separately than many other first world nations. Our public system is wracked with unnecessary costs such as duplicate equipment and providing free ER service for non-emergencies. Our private system is less than stellar with regards to preventable deaths and cost efficiency....

The report, released by Health Care for America Now (HCAN), uses data compiled by the American Medical Association to show that 94 percent of the country's insurance markets are defined as "highly concentrated," according to Justice Department guidelines. Predictably, that's led to skyrocketing costs for patients, and monster profits for the big health insurers. Premiums have gone up over the past six years by more than 87 percent, on average, while profits at ten of the largest publicly traded health insurance companies rose 428 percent from 2000 to 2007.

http://healthcareforamericanow.org/site/content/new_report_private_insurers_consolidate_and_contro l_prices

[boosterp]

The VA claims that they treated 5.5 million people in 2008. Where does the 300k come from?

That is people coming through the door, like me who go for several appointments a year.

http://tucsoncitizen.com/veteranveritas/2009/06/19/veterans-affairs-budget/

$87bn huh? So, they spent nearly twice their entire budget that was allocated on healthcare and didn't bother to request that much for the following year. Given the increased expenses due to combat-related issues, that really isn't that much either as far as expenditure goes. Especially given that the money itself goes towards construction and things similar to that.

I did get the figure wrong in my rush of things. But you are partially wrong

Plus, as noted with the other graph we already pay more publicly and privately separately than many other first world nations. Our public system is wracked with unnecessary costs such as duplicate equipment and providing free ER service for non-emergencies. Our private system is less than stellar with regards to preventable deaths and cost efficiency....



http://healthcareforamericanow.org/site/content/new_report_private_insurers_consolidate_and_contro l_prices

VA NEEDS SUFFICIENT, TIMELY, AND PREDICTABLE FUNDING
As in years past, the fiscal year (FY) 2008 appropriations process was neither seamless nor efficient. Due to political wrangling over the federal budget, and for the 18th time in 21 years, VA did not receive its fiscal year 2008 appropriation until January, despite the bill being completed before the start of the fiscal year on October 1.
The process leading up to FY 2009 was equally challenging. Despite excellent funding levels provided over the past two years, the larger appropriations process remains flawed and unpredictable. For only the third time in the past 20 years, VA received its budget prior to the start of the new fiscal year. However, this funding was not completed by Congress in the regular order. The new Administration is still preparing its budget request for FY 2010. Compared to VA’s total discretionary budget for FY 2009 of $50.2 billion including medical collections, the Independent Budget (IB) recommends $54.6 billion, an increase of $4.5 billion over last year. Medical Care Budget: The IB recommends $46.6 billion for medical care, an increase of $3.6 billion over FY 2009.


Courtesy of DAV.org (www.dav.org/news/documents/2009TalkingPoints.pdf)

The building costs, compensation, research, etc is separate.

[Zorro]

That's wonderful for you, lose your job and you'll be fucked. Your provider DID have to approve those surgeries, your doctors office handles that. You don't just get to pick and choose surgery without approval. I have great insurance too, but when I was 23 and temping with no insurance, I got to splint my own broken finger because I couldn't afford to have it fixed.

Nothing is for free. The only questions are how its going to be paid for...through your emoloyer...individually or through taxes...and if the government controls it will the quality of care drop or rise?

I am self employed and currently pay $515 a month for health insurance. Assuming that a government takeover would lower this is nuts. I'll just be paying for it differently.

I watched my mom with medicare. She had to pay her part B & D premiums and for a supplement...all to the tune of about $400 a month...and for several months the lapses in part D had her paying an additional $500 for prescriptions.

because of some serious medical conditions the quality of care is more important than the
cost. when I asked my cardiologist if he thought I'd be able to continue to receive the same care I get now he told me that's crazy talk. He explained how under current law medicaid underpays physicians and medicare's first answer to anything is to deny treatment. Leading many doctors to avoid treating medicare and medicaid patients.

[boosterp]

We need to do something to fix this broken fucked up system that we have. I have been in the health care industry for 15 years and have seen it get worse. Because of the costs of having to deal with insurance companies my step-dad got out of private practice and took a job at the VA making a third of what he was, but his malpractice is also a lot lower. There is no quick fix, but the insurance companies hold most of the blame. What ever we can do to force the costs down, do it.

[LordJezo]

Scary shit..

Mandates on Coverage
The House is also proposing a mandate on Americans above a certain income level: People would be penalized as much as 2.5 percent of their income for failure to buy health insurance.

Don't want health insurance because you feel like it's not necessary to your life? Fuck you, buy it or get taxed. Personal choice is going away. We are moving into a time where we will be forced by Obama to buy health care because that's how he wants us to live our lives.

Forced vaccines dont seem far away now. If they can force you to buy health insurance or penalize you for not then they will be able to force you to get vaccines once you have it or risk losing it, and then be taxed for not having it.

I guess we will all be in front of our local national healthcare clinic to get whatever they want to put in us to keep us in line.

[HBox]

If you are going to get rid of pre-existing conditions disqualifying you from coverage you have to mandate coverage. Otherwise there's no reason to be insured if you can just enroll whenever you get sick. The system works best, and this goes for a 100% public or 100% private syystem, when you have as big a pool as possible.

[epo]

Scary shit..

Don't want health insurance because you feel like it's not necessary to your life? Fuck you, buy it or get taxed. Personal choice is going away. We are moving into a time where we will be forced by Obama to buy health care because that's how he wants us to live our lives.

Forced vaccines dont seem far away now. If they can force you to buy health insurance or penalize you for not then they will be able to force you to get vaccines once you have it or risk losing it, and then be taxed for not having it.

I guess we will all be in front of our local national healthcare clinic to get whatever they want to put in us to keep us in line.

In our next plan, you won't believe the shit we're going to force you to buy!

[Furtherman]

In our next plan, you won't believe the shit we're going to force you to buy!

Hopefully, a clue.

[HBox]

I was thinking more along the lines of sex-changes for convicted pedophiles or mandatory abortions for all white women.

[TripleSkeet]

Oh, and to all the assumptions "I probably paid for your, you and your shitty job"....

My husband and I are close to hitting that magical "rich" mark of a tax increase. My husband is self-employed and pays OUT THE ASS in taxes. I pay out the ass in taxes. Our tax bill was fucking mid 5 figures this year for Federal alone.

I'm not an asshole though, and I wouldn't want people dying in the streets, or going bankrupt due to medical problems, or suffering, so yeah, big whoop, my taxes will go towards a better life for Americans.

Redistribution of Wealth! Socialism! NWO! OMG!

How about fucking taking care of your own people in the most basic of manner? Or do you need that precious dollar to stuff another Applebees meal into your face?

Helping others in that manner helps the whole fucking country as a whole. Affordable healthcare prevents bankruptcy, prevents people from losing their jobs, from losing their homes.

Someone can do everything right, good job, good insurance, and be fucking destroyed simply by 1 medical emergency.

Well said.

[ImNotGvac]

Scary shit..

Don't want health insurance because you feel like it's not necessary to your life? Fuck you, buy it or get taxed. Personal choice is going away. We are moving into a time where we will be forced by Obama to buy health care because that's how he wants us to live our lives.


The problem is we end up paying for those people when they go to the emergency room. I would think you guys would be glad he's forcing them to pay their own way!

[Serpico1103]

Scary shit..
Don't want health insurance because you feel like it's not necessary to your life? Fuck you, buy it or get taxed. Personal choice is going away. We are moving into a time where we will be forced by Obama to buy health care because that's how he wants us to live our lives.
Forced vaccines dont seem far away now. If they can force you to buy health insurance or penalize you for not then they will be able to force you to get vaccines once you have it or risk losing it, and then be taxed for not having it.
I guess we will all be in front of our local national healthcare clinic to get whatever they want to put in us to keep us in line.

Don't want to wear a seatbelt? Fuck you, wear it or get fined.

How simple is your thought process.

[epo]

Hopefully, a clue.

I was thinking more along the lines of "fake poo".

[Serpico1103]

Medicines and services.

My doctor and I make decisions about my care not a governmental agent.

Really? You are naive. If you have health insurance, it is the insurance company pushing your doctor to make a certain decision.
If you think large corporations run any more efficiently than the government read a headline in the last couple of months.

[Syd]

Forced vaccines dont seem far away now. If they can force you to buy health insurance or penalize you for not then they will be able to force you to get vaccines once you have it or risk losing it, and then be taxed for not having it..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

[sr71blackbird]

This will probably drive many of the remaining companies out of America.
No more seeing a doctor when its convienient for you. Get ready to hang out in the emergency room for the whole day for anything urgent you need taken care of, and hopefully you or your loved ones do not have a heart attack or stroke. Every country that tries national health care is populated by people that regret it. All the robots in this country hear "free" and they say "sign me up!".
You will see how bad this will suck. Its like the nail in the coffin. I am glad I don't work for a health insurance company.

[HBox]

Get ready to hang out in the emergency room for the whole day for anything urgent you need taken care of, and hopefully you or your loved ones do not have a heart attack or stroke.

Yeah, that NEVER happens here.

The levels the ignorance reaches in this thread is staggering at times. Most of the criticisms are of a system that hasn't even been proposed by anyone. Do you people know what plans have been debated? It's a plan where the government would take over no hospitals, a plan where drug companies, doctors and hospitals have stepped up to offer savings to make the plan work, a plan where the vast, vast majority or even all people who already have insurance would not lose the plan they already have, a plan where the government would help people who don't have insurance by offering subsidies and a government-run insurance plan to compete with insurers, a plan that aims to reform and streamline the way health care is run with ideas such as standardized electronic medical records or paying doctors on health outcomes rather than how many tests and doctor visits they send you on, a plan that would eliminate insurance company loopholes such as pre-existing conditions and mandate that every American have health insurance.

This is all going to be very expensive and the difficult part now is figuring out how to pay for it. That's what should be being debated because that's what actually happening. Instead its horror stories of things that happen in "socialized" systems that also happen here, oblivious to the poster. Or the same lame, ignorant cries of socialism. What is proposed is not in the same universe as the systems in Canada or the UK. For a country full of people so terrified of socialism it's mind-boggling that so many have no clue what it really is.

[LordJezo]

58% income tax coming to NYC's rich

http://www.nypost.com/seven/07162009/news/regionalnews/dem_health_rx_a_poion_pill_in_ny_179525.htm

Good thing they are rich and don't need their money, right? America is a place where you shoulnd't be rewarded for being so successful and instead should have over half of what you make taken away to fund Obama's projects. It's for the good of the people. Don't live for yourself, live for your comrades and know that everythign you do is for the good of the state.

And of course people wait in emergency rooms now, that happens but we still have the ability to choose to go to private facilities if we can. Under Obamacare it will be pure waiting for all but the elites who will have private doctors no matter what happens. This is just going to do more to destroy the middle class and widen the class gap that exists, giving the rich more power and control and doing everything it can to push those who are in the middle down to the levels that exist in poverty.

Don't want to wear a seatbelt? Fuck you, wear it or get fined.

There is a large debate about seat belts going on out there on how it's a huge infringement on states rights by the federal government and how it goes against the constitution and personal freedoms.

So yes, the seat belt law goes right along with this and how we are not in control of our bodies, we are simply slaves to the Feds and are used by them to gain power and money.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=22390

States were blackmailed into it by having the government threaten them, much like we are now being threatened to have to pay if we don't all go on board with what Obama wants for our healthcare.

[Jujubees2]

Boo hoo. Why should I have to pay for your broken finger. Its not my fault you have a shit job either but I'm sure I paid for some of your education.

If you had all that work you speak of done (including plastic surgery) guess what? You didn't pay for it all yourself. The people who have the same health insurance as you (but who didn't use it) paid for it.

[epo]

There is a large debate about seat belts going on out there

No there isn't. There is a much larger debate going on about my upcoming "mandatory fake poo" law.

[Syd]

This will probably drive many of the remaining companies out of America.

Why would it drive the remaining companies out of America? They'd no longer have to be responsible for providing healthcare benefits.

No more seeing a doctor when its convienient for you. Get ready to hang out in the emergency room for the whole day for anything urgent you need taken care of, and hopefully you or your loved ones do not have a heart attack or stroke. Every country that tries national health care is populated by people that regret it. All the robots in this country hear "free" and they say "sign me up!".

and again, America has one of the worst preventable death rates of all industrialized nations -- behind other socialized healthcare nations. They have longer life expectancies. If it is regretful to know that your children and others will live longer than I am most certainly looking forward to regretting socialized healthcare.

[Syd]

There is a large debate about seat belts going on out there on how it's a huge infringement on states rights by the federal government and how it goes against the constitution and personal freedoms.

Did someone on infowars.com buy a new ad about how you can pay them to find out about an obscure legal ruling that might help you not wear a seatbelt or something? There's not much of a debate going on, hoss.

[Zorro]

Really? You are naive. If you have health insurance, it is the insurance company pushing your doctor to make a certain decision.
If you think large corporations run any more efficiently than the government read a headline in the last couple of months.

I realize its all fashionable and popular to bash insurance companies, but I just went through this with my mother. Everytime medicare said no her supplement carrier Hartford helped us get to a yes. More importantly insurers are licensed and subject to regulation and fines. Who's the government gonna fine..."itself" ? Do you trust the government to evaluate its own actions.

[foodcourtdruide]

And of course people wait in emergency rooms now, that happens but we still have the ability to choose to go to private facilities if we can. Under Obamacare it will be pure waiting for all but the elites who will have private doctors no matter what happens.

This is one of the most interesting statements I've ever read online. Let me look at the two sentences separately and explain why:

"And of course people wait in emergency rooms now, that happens but we still have the ability to choose to go to private facilities if we can."

This, of course, is not true for everyone. If you wanted to be literal, you would say: "And of course people wait in the emergency rooms now, that happens but PEOPLE WHO CAN AFFORD IT (who would be ELITES) have the ability to choose to go to private facilities when THEY (ELITES) can."

So, as the system is set up now only the wealthiest Americans (elites) have the ability to bypass their health insurance and not have to endure long waits, etc.

Your next sentence:

"Under Obamacare it will be pure waiting for all but the elites who will have private doctors no matter what happens."

IS EXACTLY THE SAME THING YOU SAID IN YOUR FIRST SENTENCE. So, it is somehow better that the wealthy don't have to endure the long lines that the poor must endure, as long as we are not following "obamacare"?

And not only that, but this EXACT SAME THING will cause the following:

"This is just going to do more to destroy the middle class and widen the class gap that exists, giving the rich more power and control and doing everything it can to push those who are in the middle down to the levels that exist in poverty."

So Jezo, this EXACT SAME PROBLEM that currently exists, as it exists, does not widen the class gap. However, if "obamacare" is enacted, it will widen the class gap, though every single conservative detractor of "universal healthcare" on this board (INCLUDING YOU, hence your paranoia over raising taxes on the wealthy, which WILL decrease the class gap) seems to be arguing the exact opposite?

[foodcourtdruide]

I realize its all fashionable and popular to bash insurance companies, but I just went through this with my mother. Everytime medicare said no her supplement carrier Hartford helped us get to a yes. More importantly insurers are licensed and subject to regulation and fines. Who's the government gonna fine..."itself" ? Do you trust the government to evaluate its own actions.

I don't think going on personal stories really convinces anyone. For every positive story about our healthcare system, you can find a negative one, and vice versa. My wife's family recently had an EXTREMELY positive experience in the Japanese health care system, but I try not to make that my basis for screaming out "LET'S BE JUST LIKE JAPAN!" to everyone.

[LordJezo]

This is one of the most interesting statements I've ever read online. Let me look at the two sentences separately and explain why:

"And of course people wait in emergency rooms now, that happens but we still have the ability to choose to go to private facilities if we can."

This, of course, is not true for everyone. If you wanted to be literal, you would say: "And of course people wait in the emergency rooms now, that happens but PEOPLE WHO CAN AFFORD IT (who would be ELITES) have the ability to choose to go to private facilities when THEY (ELITES) can."

So, as the system is set up now only the wealthiest Americans (elites) have the ability to bypass their health insurance and not have to endure long waits, etc.

Your next sentence:

"Under Obamacare it will be pure waiting for all but the elites who will have private doctors no matter what happens."

IS EXACTLY THE SAME THING YOU SAID IN YOUR FIRST SENTENCE. So, it is somehow better that the wealthy don't have to endure the long lines that the poor must endure, as long as we are not following "obamacare"?

And not only that, but this EXACT SAME THING will cause the following:

"This is just going to do more to destroy the middle class and widen the class gap that exists, giving the rich more power and control and doing everything it can to push those who are in the middle down to the levels that exist in poverty."

So Jezo, this EXACT SAME PROBLEM that currently exists, as it exists, does not widen the class gap. However, if "obamacare" is enacted, it will widen the class gap, though every single conservative detractor of "universal healthcare" on this board (INCLUDING YOU, hence your paranoia over raising taxes on the wealthy, which WILL decrease the class gap) seems to be arguing the exact opposite?

Right now I can go down the road and see a doctor for $30 with no insurance at one of the many "Urgent Care" facilities all around the area. If that goes away under Obamacare and we are all forced to have expensive insurance and only see federally distributed doctors then it will be worse off for everyone but those who can afford $900 private care doctors like in Canada.We have options now to decide who we want to see - blah blah the insurance companies decide that! - but I have dozens of doctors I can pick, I don't have a forced Obama doctor assigned to me by the federal health care czars.

People can get insurance if they want to or they can decide to forgo it. Once Obama dictates to us what we can and can't do they will determine everything. It wont be long before they mandate vaccines in order to let people keep their insurance and from that we will have forced drugs, meal plans, federally determined exercise regimens, and could be taxed for having high cholesterol or put in prison for not taking our daily emotional control pills.

This is worse than anything Orwell could have ever imagined. We are going to be a totally command economy system before we know it. Chavez and Kim Jong could only hope to pull off in their countries what Obama is doing here, all because he is viewed as the savior of humanity.

Long live the eternal president of the republic of the USA!

[foodcourtdruide]

Right now I can go down the road and see a doctor for $30 with no insurance at one of the many "Urgent Care" facilities all around the area. If that goes away under Obamacare and we are all forced to have expensive insurance and only see federally distributed doctors then it will be worse off for everyone but those who can afford $900 private care doctors like in Canada.We have options now to decide who we want to see - blah blah the insurance companies decide that! - but I have dozens of doctors I can pick, I don't have a forced Obama doctor assigned to me by the federal health care czars.

People can get insurance if they want to or they can decide to forgo it. Once Obama dictates to us what we can and can't do they will determine everything. It wont be long before they mandate vaccines in order to let people keep their insurance and from that we will have forced drugs, meal plans, federally determined exercise regimens, and could be taxed for having high cholesterol or put in prison for not taking our daily emotional control pills.

This is worse than anything Orwell could have ever imagined. We are going to be a totally command economy system before we know it. Chavez and Kim Jong could only hope to pull off in their countries what Obama is doing here, all because he is viewed as the savior of humanity.

Long live the eternal president of the republic of the USA!

I don't know what to say to this.. so I'm just going to pass.

I pass.

[Furtherman]

all because he is viewed as the savior of humanity.

Only by you.

[TjM]

put in prison for not taking our daily emotional control pills.


I wish you would take yours

[angrymissy]

Do you think the $50 Urgent Care place is going to treat you if you get cancer?

[foodcourtdruide]

Do you think the $50 Urgent Care place is going to treat you if you get cancer?

This was one of the reasons I had to pass.

[LordJezo]

Do you think the $50 Urgent Care place is going to treat you if you get cancer?

Nope, and neither will a federal center. They'll wait list you until you are dead and then say sorry. If a million people are all waiting in line for the same public cancer center the place will be overwhelmed and overworked. It's sad but there isn't enough to go around for everyone with how it is. Medical care is not an unlimited asset. Forcing all people to use a limited resource is going to destroy everything.

We don't need Obama telling us what doctors we can see and taxing the hell out of everyone. We need a total shake up of the health care system and smacking everyone around until they start lowering their costs. Cancer treatment shouldn't cost more than a house. Obamacare does nothing to lower costs for facilities or doctors, they'll will just be dictating what they will be paid and public care will diminish because of it.

It's just like the stories we were told of Communist Russia during the cold war. The government will tell us what doctor to see, what health care we need, and decide for us how we live our lives.

And why the hell should I pay for Fatman to get medical treatment when he wants it just because Obama says we are all equal?

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/g_ryQylenY4&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/g_ryQylenY4&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

People like that deserve to pay more than those of us trying to stay healthy and doing what we can to cut back on medical costs. Now everyone can easily be just like him and Obama will pay for all of it with a redistribution of wealth from the healthy to those who do nothing but eat fast food and kill themselves.

[epo]

Obamacare does nothing to lower costs for facilities or doctors, they'll will just be dictating what they will be paid and public care will diminish because of it.

You do make me laugh.

[Jujubees2]

You do make me laugh.

And laughter is the best medicine. I think JeZo found a new healthcare policy!

[LordJezo]

And laughter is the best medicine. I think JeZo found a new healthcare policy!

Only the most laugh lacking will be allowed any treatment. The rest of you will have your laughter requests put through triage and maybe will get to laugh after a few months of waiting.

Those of you who decide not to laugh will be taxed and penalized until it is financially impossible for you to resist paying for my laughter plans.

[Syd]

Nope, and neither will a federal center. They'll wait list you until you are dead and then say sorry. If a million people are all waiting in line for the same public cancer center the place will be overwhelmed and overworked.

I know actual reality stings for you reality fanfic people, but

[angrymissy]

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_lif_exp_at_bir_yea_tot_pop-expectancy-birth-years-total-population

YEAH! All those socialists using federal health care plans are dyi... Oh, wait.

[Jujubees2]

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_lif_exp_at_bir_yea_tot_pop-expectancy-birth-years-total-population

YEAH! All those socialists using federal health care plans are dyi... Oh, wait.

Hey, we're tied with Luxembourg!

[HBox]

This is the real Cold War, and we are losing it badly. (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_abo-health-abortions)

I'm ready to do my part and win this war.

[angrymissy]

This is the real Cold War, and we are losing it badly. (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_abo-health-abortions)

I'm ready to do my part and win this war.

It's ok, we're winning this one:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_tee_pre_percap-health-teenage-pregnancy-per-capita

[angrymissy]

And this one too!:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_obe-health-obesity

We've got more fat, pregnant, teenagers than you Russia! SUCK IT!

[The Jays]

I'm sick of hearing right wingers make assumptions like "I pay for your" "Go get your welfare check" to left wingers.

Guess what? Most liberals I know are fucking rich as shit. I seriously have a feeling the people bitching the most probably won't even be affected by any tax increase.

Oddly, most of the conservatives I know of are poor as shit.

Right now I can go down the road and see a doctor for $30 with no insurance at one of the many "Urgent Care" facilities all around the area.

And what exactly do you get for $30 at the urgent care centers? Those places are dirty pieces of shit offices, and if they have to do something to actually fix something, you get billed a couple hundred bucks if you have no insurance. The only way they cut costs is by giving you free samples of shit they keep in a closet.

[A.J.]

And this one too!:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_obe-health-obesity

We've got more fat, pregnant, teenagers than you Russia! SUCK IT!

Yeah, but that's because they export their teenagers to the Middle East to work as hookers.

[Syd]

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_lif_exp_at_bir_yea_tot_pop-expectancy-birth-years-total-population

YEAH! All those socialists using federal health care plans are dyi... Oh, wait.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_tot_exp_on_hea_as_of_gdp-health-total-expenditure-gdp

Good graphs, we spend 50% more than germany yet have worse life expectancies

BUT AT LEAST WE DON'T HAVE TO WAIT IN LINE TO DIE EARLIER

Maybe all that standing around leads to living longer?

[TripleSkeet]

And why the hell should I pay for Fatman to get medical treatment when he wants it just because Obama says we are all equal?


I thought God said that.


This is still going on? I thought Jezo was a board character.

[angrymissy]

If you like the NationMaster site, you'll LOVE STATEMASTER!

Oral Health loss of natural teeth (most recent) by state (http://www.statemaster.com/graph/hea_ora_hea_los_of_nat_tee-health-oral-loss-natural-teeth)

[A.J.]

If you like the NationMaster site, you'll LOVE STATEMASTER!

Oral Health loss of natural teeth (most recent) by state (http://www.statemaster.com/graph/hea_ora_hea_los_of_nat_tee-health-oral-loss-natural-teeth)

Just as I thought.

And Connecticut is the lowest -- thanks Dr. Joe!

[~Katja~]

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_tot_exp_on_hea_as_of_gdp-health-total-expenditure-gdp

Good graphs, we spend 50% more than germany yet have worse life expectancies

BUT AT LEAST WE DON'T HAVE TO WAIT IN LINE TO DIE EARLIER

Maybe all that standing around leads to living longer?

nobody is standing in line there either, it's a big misconception about the health systems in Europe.

They also have private health care for business owners yet their employees are entitled to the same coverage with the major insurance companies (which they can chose from) as an employee of a major corporation or working for the government.
Private insurance is not nearly as costly as here an it does in fact get you preferred service (like a single room at the hospital or the choice of surgeon for a surgery) and to make it better, you submit your doctor bills to them monthly, quarterly or annually and if the bills don't exceed your premium you are better off taking a return on the premium instead of submitting the bills, so you actually get money back if you did not use your medical coverage too much.

[LordJezo]

Yay!

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=332548165656854

Obamacare to set the stage for the destruction of all personal health insurance! A completely state run system will be theirs sooner than later. The Obama regime will own our bodies for complete foreseeable future. They are doing everything in their power to get an iron grasp on health care in this country and make sure that we get the coverage dictated by them.

[Syd]

nobody is standing in line there either, it's a big misconception about the health systems in Europe.

Most of the time the real ugly numbers come from someone comparing elective procedures in America versus elective procedures elsewhere. If you need an MRI or a cat scan because you've been in an accident anywhere, it's going to be that day or very soon. If you need an MRI or a cat scan because you're thinking about replacing a knee in the future, it's not going to be done very quickly in a national healthcare system whereas in America it'll still be quick. Reason being MRI machines especially are unbelievably expensive to maintain but due to the nature of the American healthcare system, every place will require one to remain competitive. Meanwhile, there just aren't enough people to justify having a superconducted machine being constantly run when there's 10 others in the area that aren't being used.

All in all it's a vastly superior system to everyone involved -- the citizens, society as a whole and most importantly industry all benefit greatly from it. Companies now move their factories or place new factories in Canada chiefly due to it being so much cheaper to manufacture goods there. They're not on the dole for healthcare costs, just paying their workers. All things being equal, would you rather operate a factory in an expensive country (America) or an inexpensive country (Canada) ?

[angrymissy]

Yup, that's been making the rounds today.

Problem is, if you actually READ the bill, page 16, you'll find that that statement is only there to define a Grandfathered plan. It does not apply to anyone getting new insurance after Day 1. Grandfathered plans won't be subject to the new regulations for 5 years.

[Zorro]

Yup, that's been making the rounds today.

Problem is, if you actually READ the bill, page 16, you'll find that that statement is only there to define a Grandfathered plan. It does not apply to anyone getting new insurance after Day 1. Grandfathered plans won't be subject to the new regulations for 5 years.

Actually I thought what it meant was that "individual" health plans were grandfathered. But that once the law goes into effect you won't be able to alter your current "individual" insurance plan or purchase a private "individual" plan. Individuals would be required to purchase new insurance from the public option. Am I reading it right?

[HBox]

Actually I thought what it meant was that "individual" health plans were grandfathered. But that once the law goes into effect you won't be able to alter your current "individual" insurance plan or purchase a private "individual" plan. Individuals would be required to purchase new insurance from the public option. Am I reading it right?

There is going to be an insurance marketplace regulated by the government which includes the public option in addition to private insurance options. That's likely what it is talking about. And the reason they are doing it that way is because that marketplace is the mechanism through which the government will pay out its subsidies for those who qualify.

[Zorro]

There is going to be an insurance marketplace regulated by the government which includes the public option in addition to private insurance options. That's likely what it is talking about. And the reason they are doing it that way is because that marketplace is the mechanism through which the government will pay out its subsidies for those who qualify.

Again I understood that marketplace to only apply to group plans and this particular rule to "individual" plans.
It's a huge and expensive difference.

[HBox]

Again I understood that marketplace to only apply to group plans and this particular rule to "individual" plans.
It's a huge and expensive difference.

The way I understood it was that the marketplace for individual insurance would function along the lines of Medicare Advantage where people are in regional groups and have a choice of a number of insurers including a public option. It everyone buying individual insurance had to buy the public option I don't know why there would be talk of subsidies. The subsidies are meant for those who can't get insurance through work and have to buy it on their own but can't afford it. If they all had to buy the public option there would be no need for subsidies. They could just charge premiums based on need.

[boosterp]

nobody is standing in line there either, it's a big misconception about the health systems in Europe.

They also have private health care for business owners yet their employees are entitled to the same coverage with the major insurance companies (which they can chose from) as an employee of a major corporation or working for the government.
Private insurance is not nearly as costly as here an it does in fact get you preferred service (like a single room at the hospital or the choice of surgeon for a surgery) and to make it better, you submit your doctor bills to them monthly, quarterly or annually and if the bills don't exceed your premium you are better off taking a return on the premium instead of submitting the bills, so you actually get money back if you did not use your medical coverage too much.

I loved the system in Germany and understand that they have improved it since I was last there. The only negative to Germany's system is that the government nearly went belly up in the early to mid 90s trying to pay for it all. This was also about the time they were making changes to how they pay for health care. When we needed specialty care for soldiers and their families we would use the German health care system.

My point is, that what we are seeing in congress regarding a plan for health care will have to evolve and there will be many changes before it becomes truly cost effective.

The Houston VA medical center is one of the best, most awarded VAs in the nation. They worked hard to get there through innovation, policies, and good spending practices. They also alligned themselves with Baylor College of Medicine, The Methodist Hospital, and several of the top nursing schools. This VA is the largest, with the largest budget, and the largest patient population, yet it manages to stay out of the red. Through Baylor I worked with our VA closely and got to know the system well, plus I am a patient. It will take time for a national model to be effective, but something has to be done.

[The Jays]

Yup, that's been making the rounds today.

Problem is, if you actually READ the bill, page 16, you'll find that that statement is only there to define a Grandfathered plan. It does not apply to anyone getting new insurance after Day 1. Grandfathered plans won't be subject to the new regulations for 5 years.

Why do you bother, missy? You know he's just going to ignore whatever you say, unless you somehow incorporate "ObamaCare", or "socialist plan to take over the world" into your thoughts.

[TheMojoPin]

Jezo aside, the last couple pages have been really interesting and have really helped me read up on this issue.

[Zorro]

The way I understood it was that the marketplace for individual insurance would function along the lines of Medicare Advantage where people are in regional groups and have a choice of a number of insurers including a public option. It everyone buying individual insurance had to buy the public option I don't know why there would be talk of subsidies. The subsidies are meant for those who can't get insurance through work and have to buy it on their own but can't afford it. If they all had to buy the public option there would be no need for subsidies. They could just charge premiums based on need.

You'd get a subsidy to buy the public policy. From what I've read there is no "need based" premium option.

[Zorro]

Yay!

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=332548165656854

Obamacare to set the stage for the destruction of all personal health insurance! A completely state run system will be theirs sooner than later. The Obama regime will own our bodies for complete foreseeable future. They are doing everything in their power to get an iron grasp on health care in this country and make sure that we get the coverage dictated by them.

Apparentlya regurgitation of today's Rush Limbaugh show.

[Furtherman]

Jezo aside, the last couple pages have been really interesting and have really helped me read up on this issue.

Just ban him out of spite next time and save us and bandwidth, will ya?

[IMSlacker]

<table style='font:11px arial; color:#333; background-color:#f5f5f5' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='360' height='353'><tbody><tr style='background-color:#e5e5e5' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;'><a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/'>The Daily Show With Jon Stewart</a></td><td style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; text-align:right; font-weight:bold;'>Mon - Thurs 11p / 10c</td></tr><tr style='height:14px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;' colspan='2'<a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-july-15-2009/drag-me-to-health'>Drag Me to Health<a></td></tr><tr style='height:14px; background-color:#353535' valign='middle'><td colspan='2' style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; width:360px; overflow:hidden; text-align:right'><a target='_blank' style='color:#96deff; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/'>www.thedailyshow.com</a></td></tr><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><embed style='display:block' src='http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:item:comedycentral.com:233138' width='360' height='301' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' wmode='window' allowFullscreen='true' flashvars='autoPlay=false' allowscriptaccess='always' allownetworking='all' bgcolor='#000000'></embed></td></tr><tr style='height:18px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><table style='margin:0px; text-align:center' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='100%' height='100%'><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes'>Daily Show<br/> Full Episodes</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.indecisionforever.com'>Political Humor</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.jokes.com'>Joke of the Day</a></td></tr></table></td></tr></tbody></table>

<table style='font:11px arial; color:#333; background-color:#f5f5f5' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='360' height='353'><tbody><tr style='background-color:#e5e5e5' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;'><a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/'>The Daily Show With Jon Stewart</a></td><td style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; text-align:right; font-weight:bold;'>Mon - Thurs 11p / 10c</td></tr><tr style='height:14px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;' colspan='2'<a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-july-15-2009/drag-me-to-health---universal-health-care'>Drag Me to Health - Universal Health Care<a></td></tr><tr style='height:14px; background-color:#353535' valign='middle'><td colspan='2' style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; width:360px; overflow:hidden; text-align:right'><a target='_blank' style='color:#96deff; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/'>www.thedailyshow.com</a></td></tr><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><embed style='display:block' src='http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:item:comedycentral.com:233139' width='360' height='301' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' wmode='window' allowFullscreen='true' flashvars='autoPlay=false' allowscriptaccess='always' allownetworking='all' bgcolor='#000000'></embed></td></tr><tr style='height:18px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><table style='margin:0px; text-align:center' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='100%' height='100%'><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes'>Daily Show<br/> Full Episodes</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.indecisionforever.com'>Political Humor</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.jokes.com'>Joke of the Day</a></td></tr></table></td></tr></tbody></table>

[epo]

This will probably drive many of the remaining companies out of America.
No more seeing a doctor when its convienient for you. Get ready to hang out in the emergency room for the whole day for anything urgent you need taken care of, and hopefully you or your loved ones do not have a heart attack or stroke. Every country that tries national health care is populated by people that regret it. All the robots in this country hear "free" and they say "sign me up!".
You will see how bad this will suck. Its like the nail in the coffin. I am glad I don't work for a health insurance company.

Just as a point of discussion: What does the health insurance industry really contribute to the health of americans?

[HBox]

You'd get a subsidy to buy the public policy. From what I've read there is no "need based" premium option.

But that makes no sense. Why would the government give out money to people so they can just give it back? I've read nowhere outside of that one article that individual private insurance will be outlawed. And that one article is a highly biased source that selectively quotes one paragraph from an 1,000 page bill that hasn't even come to vote yet when there are two other competing proposals. And Jezo posted it for christ sakes.

The only weird thing I've read is that the bill that got out of committee yesterday would actually prevent those who already have insurance from dropping it and entering the individual marketplace. They want to do to preserve the private system of obtaining coverage through jobs as much as possible. And to that they are stopping people from going to the private plan. They are doing the opposite of what all the harshest critics are accusing them of doing.

More about that here. (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/07/the_flip_side_of_health-care_r.html)

[HBox]

The AMA (American Medical Association, the largest doctor group and lobby) comes out in FAVOR of the House version of the health care bill. (http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/07/16/1998891.aspx)

[underdog]

It's ok, we're winning this one:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_tee_pre_percap-health-teenage-pregnancy-per-capita

We're not only winning that one, we're destroying everyone. No one is even close.

Abstinence only works!

[Zorro]

But that makes no sense. Why would the government give out money to people so they can just give it back? I've read nowhere outside of that one article that individual private insurance will be outlawed. And that one article is a highly biased source that selectively quotes one paragraph from an 1,000 page bill that hasn't even come to vote yet when there are two other competing proposals. And Jezo posted it for christ sakes.

The only weird thing I've read is that the bill that got out of committee yesterday would actually prevent those who already have insurance from dropping it and entering the individual marketplace. They want to do to preserve the private system of obtaining coverage through jobs as much as possible. And to that they are stopping people from going to the private plan. They are doing the opposite of what all the harshest critics are accusing them of doing.

More about that here. (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/07/the_flip_side_of_health-care_r.html)

Actually it makes perfect sense. The cost of care does not change by how much you make. It's fixed...assuming "law of large numbers" "actuarial tables" etc. By subsidizing it the end result... affordability is acheived, but the accounting is much easier. Think earned income credit.

[boosterp]

Just as a point of discussion: What does the health insurance industry really contribute to the health of americans?

Early on Health insuance private companies were supposed to make it easier to for companies to supply their employees with health coverage, contribute to a healthy life style, and make certain the health care professionals not only did a good job but there was a bit of regulation through dropping those doctors, etc. who did shitty jobs or had serious violations against their licenses.

In the early 90s it took a dramatic change for the worse. Patients were limited who they could see, hospital and professional services became negotiated prices usually 80% or less than the going rate, and instead of just having good doctors on the insurance decision boards you also got lawyers and business people involved in deciding what the best course of treatment was for you. Part of this comes from the Medicare reforms and the private insurance modeling after Medicare, but primarily I can not explain why this evolution happened other than surmise that there was certain greed involved on the health insurance company's side.

I dated a lady who worked for one of the largest health insurance companies and her job literally would make her sick from having to follow certain rules in denials and aprovals. I have dealt with the patient care aspect and billing for my services and I'd get pissed if something was denied by the company then I had a ton of paperwork and calls to make so my institution got paid for what I did.

It is broke, fix the fucking thing.

[The Jays]

I think the only way to fix the whole thing is to install Obama as our Supreme Leader and hand over all of our money to the Democratic Party so that its members can become richer and so that our health care system becomes the worst in the world. Once we get that done, then we can finally elect a Republican to the Presidency, such as Palin or Jindal, who gets the American people, who knows how hard it is out there for us regular folk, and who can finally get the government out of our dreams and into our car.

[boosterp]

I think the only way to fix the whole thing is to install Obama as our Supreme Leader and hand over all of our money to the Democratic Party so that its members can become richer and so that our health care system becomes the worst in the world. Once we get that done, then we can finally elect a Republican to the Presidency, such as Palin or Jindal, who gets the American people, who knows how hard it is out there for us regular folk, and who can finally get the government out of our dreams and into our car.

If you or Jezo mention Palin as a potential president again I will pay someone to hunt you down and bash your hands to a pulp with a pry bar.



Disclaimer: this is not an actual threat.

[Syd]

our healthcare system is already the worst in the industrialized world so, not going to be a huge dropoff to be worst in the world

[jonnyAK]

If you or Jezo mention Palin as a potential president again I will pay someone to hunt you down and bash your hands to a pulp with a pry bar.



Disclaimer: this is not an actual threat.

I'll do it for some smokes.
semper fi!

[boosterp]

I'll do it for some smokes.
semper fi!

Alright Marine, I have teamed up with y'all crazy asses before. We need to do it quietly, know anyone on the police force?

[KatPw]

All the people that talk about not having choices under a Universal system, here is an insurance story from my region:
http://www.newsday.com/news/printedition/longisland/ny-lihosp1112959301jul10,0,5646582.story

Empire is a very large insurer in NYS. Where will the choice be for these patients?

[The Jays]

This hijacking of our health care system is being done so that the radical homosexual socialist left can gain further control over our lives and take our money, because surely, being a politician is the most profitable way to make money in this country.

[Ogre]

I think the only way to fix the whole thing is to install Obama as our Supreme Leader and hand over all of our money to the Democratic Party so that its members can become richer and so that our health care system becomes the worst in the world. Once we get that done, then we can finally elect a Republican to the Presidency, such as Palin or Jindal, who gets the American people, who knows how hard it is out there for us regular folk, and who can finally get the government out of our dreams and into our car.

Yeah Republicans do seem to be Walkin' the Dinosaur.

[Gvac]

FUCK HEALTH CARE!

Let people die!

There are too many already.

[BlackSpider]

FUCK HEALTH CARE!

Let people die!

There are too many already.



Exactly.
The longer we live, the quicker we will run out of room on this rock...

[Serpico1103]

FUCK HEALTH CARE!

Let people die!

There are too many already.

Solution- Over 80, you only get a minimum of health-care. If you need more, pay out of pocket, no insurance or medicaid should be allowed to cover it.
Too much money is spent keeping vegetables lying in an overcrowded hospital because people can't let go.

[boosterp]

Yeah Republicans do seem to be Walkin' the Dinosaur.

I ask here too: Please do not group all republicans and/or conservatives together. I am a progressive conservative (like a moderate democrat) and I have nothing in common with these neo-con bull shit artists. Just read my posts.

Solution- Over 80, you only get a minimum of health-care. If you need more, pay out of pocket, no insurance or medicaid should be allowed to cover it.
Too much money is spent keeping vegetables lying in an overcrowded hospital because people can't let go.

You suck.

Old people deserve our care and respect just as much as an infant does.

[Serpico1103]

You suck.

Old people deserve our care and respect just as much as an infant does.

Every dollar spent on an old, no longer contributing, breathing through a tube, eating pureed dinners, elderly burden is a dollar not spent on cute little babies.

Too much money is spent on the end of our lives. That money should be spent to help us be more productively earlier in life.

[scottinnj]

Too much money is spent on the end of our lives. That money should be spent to help us be more productively earlier in life.

It's a quality of life argument, but who is the one to decide when the patient's life is no longer bearable?

[boosterp]

Every dollar spent on an old, no longer contributing, breathing through a tube, eating pureed dinners, elderly burden is a dollar not spent on cute little babies.

Too much money is spent on the end of our lives. That money should be spent to help us be more productively earlier in life.

This is why people should have living wills and medical advanced directives not only filed with their hospital of choice but also with a close relative. A close relative who you trust should also be your medical power of attorney. That kind of shit is preventable.

My now deceased grandmother had all of this and did not suffer very long in her last days thanks to her giving my mom the power to make the right medical choices.

[HBox]

It's a quality of life argument, but who is the one to decide when the patient's life is no longer bearable?

Somebody has to step in and say enough is enough. This is the most expensive type of care by far. We don't have inexhaustible resources and we can't pursue every treatment option no matter how unlikely it is to work. Nor can we sustain the current level of spending. It's an incredibly tough decision to make as to where to set the line but at some point we have to realize that there is not an inexhaustible amount of resources.

[SP1!]

National healthcare is not needed, its a smokescreen to fix the real problems which is to reign in the health system itself, control costs, and get patients the care their doctors say they will require before it becomes a bigger burden. Quite a few people have problems that are caused earlier in life that, if treated would have fixed a bigger problem that developed later in life. The problem is that insurance companies want to say no to small costs then cover larger costs when it becomes a life or death issue.

Oh and anyone can get healthcare by walking up to a clinic/hospital taking federal funds and asking for treatment, they have to treat you then most place write that cost off later.

We do not need socialized medicine run by the government, we need to fix the current system.

Also is it true that the bill before congress right now excludes them from having to use that same health care? If it does then thats bullshit, it should be for everyone or no one to make sure the greatest care is used for the people not just the privileged few in the government who can get better care.

[HBox]

We do not need socialized medicine run by the government, we need to fix the current system.

THATS WHAT THEY ARE FUCKING DOING.

[conman823]

THATS WHAT THEY ARE FUCKING DOING.

Heavens!
:ohmy: