Crosby or Ovechkin [Archive] - RonFez.net Messageboard

BeerBandit

03-17-2007, 06:46 PM

Kevin wrote: BeerBandit wrote: Crosby is sick. Did you see him score through 4 Canadiens last night. He may be a pussy who drops to the ice from a handshake, but he's at least the best since Forsberg's pre-injury days. You could make a case that there was no better player, ever, than pre injury, Forsberg. Speed, shot, pass, grit, all around... I think he was too gritty for his own good.  Yeah, it's a shame what's happened to him.  I can only go back to the late 80's when Gretsky reigned supreme, but Forsberg and Fedorov were the best that I've seen personally seen.  And now we have Crosby.  Don't get me wrong Ovechkin is good.   His problem is he's all the Caps have.  Like Gretksy, Crosby's got a nice core developing around him.

spoon

03-17-2007, 11:59 PM

I go Crosby due to leadership and unselfish play versus some idiotic moves I've seen of Ovechkin.  They're both great players and I'd love to have either, but Crosby will bring titles to Pittsburg before Ovechkin learns to make others around him good.

TheGameHHH

03-18-2007, 12:11 AM

Ovechkin is a great hockey player........but id choose Crosby in a heartbeat, he's just so damn good.

Gwen

03-18-2007, 06:33 AM

Wow, I know I'll be hammered for this, but I"m gonna go with Ovechkin.  I appreciate Crosby's talent, leadership, etc. but I just can't STAND how the media is all on his shit.  Yes, I won't deny he's putting up RIDICULOUS numbers, but it just irked me that before he ever played his first game in the league they're calling him "the next one".  I think you need to earn a title like that, and it's not that Crosby isn't well on his way, it's just it should take 5 or so seasons before you can get accolades like that.  I mean for what its worth what if someone comes around who is better than Crosby, will he be the Next Next One?  Ovechkin's "Dream On" goal montage on you tube speaks volumes to his ability to make ridiculous goals, and I realize flash only gets you so far and should Crosby's leadership take him further than so be it, but seriously both of these guys need more time in the league to show they've got staying power and not just youthful raw talent.   (I'm skeered to press "post message", hahah)

ralphbxny

03-18-2007, 06:44 AM

Crosby as much as I hate to admit it!!

Bossanova

03-18-2007, 06:48 AM

Gwen wrote: I appreciate Crosby's talent, leadership, etc. but I just can't STAND how the media is all on his shit. I agree how the media makes people turn on a player, but its not the players fault. I thought the samw thing when Lebron was going to the NBA.  I hated him, and wanted him to suck.  All he did was shove it up my ass by being amazing.  You can't deny that Crosby is a special as he is.  He has already broken a few records the other"Great One'" owned.  he is going to be that damn good. As for being a pussy.  Yeah he is, but like Kevin noted, Foreberg ruined his career by scrapping.  Lindros is another one who tried to be too tough, now he's shit.  If I had crosby on my team a glove would never go near him.  He makes every offensive player better.

sailor

03-18-2007, 06:53 AM

Gwen wrote: Wow, I know I'll be hammered for this, but I"m gonna go with Ovechkin. I appreciate Crosby's talent, leadership, etc. but I just can't STAND how the media is all on his shit. Yes, I won't deny he's putting up RIDICULOUS numbers, but it just irked me that before he ever played his first game in the league they're calling him "the next one". I think you need to earn a title like that, and it's not that Crosby isn't well on his way, it's just it should take 5 or so seasons before you can get accolades like that. I mean for what its worth what if someone comes around who is better than Crosby, will he be the Next Next One? Ovechkin's "Dream On" goal montage on you tube speaks volumes to his ability to make ridiculous goals, and I realize flash only gets you so far and should Crosby's leadership take him further than so be it, but seriously both of these guys need more time in the league to show they've got staying power and not just youthful raw talent.  (I'm skeered to press "post message", hahah)  no slam here, but you really can't fault crosby for the adoration and adulation of others.btw, no contest...all crosby...all the time.  go penguins!!

El Mudo

03-18-2007, 07:01 AM

BeerBandit wrote: Kevin wrote: BeerBandit wrote: Crosby is sick. Did you see him score through 4 Canadiens last night. He may be a pussy who drops to the ice from a handshake, but he's at least the best since Forsberg's pre-injury days. You could make a case that there was no better player, ever, than pre injury, Forsberg. Speed, shot, pass, grit, all around... I think he was too gritty for his own good. Yeah, it's a shame what's happened to him. I can only go back to the late 80's when Gretsky reigned supreme, but Forsberg and Fedorov were the best that I've seen personally seen. And now we have Crosby. Don't get me wrong Ovechkin is good. His problem is he's all the Caps have. Like Gretksy, Crosby's got a nice core developing around him.  Yeah....and Alexander Semin is only going to get close to 40 goals...and Nicholas Backstrom is coming next year....and another top 3 pick...and Simeon Varlamov...plus oodles and oodles of Salary Cap room...and young forwards like Boyd Gordon and Bryan Sutherby and Alexandre Giroux and Eric Fehr...good young defensemen like Bryan Pothier and Mike Green and Shoane Morrison...  *sarcasm* Yeah...i'd say he's all we have... *sarcasm*          Pittsburgh has had years to stockpile top 3 picks, and theyve now got a lot of horses because   of         that.  I don't think we're that far away, and we were really competitive this year before Olie hurt           his knee.  Besides the obvious reasons I'd take Ovechkin, its his physical play that I like the most.  His very first shift in the NHL, he destroyed Radoslav Suchy of Columbus and broke the glass at the Phone Booth.  The problem is though, its tough to compare Crosby and Ovechkin because theyre two different types of players.  Crosby's more of a setup guy, while I'd compare Ovechkin to a power forward almost.  It's like Bird and Magic almost. How can you say Ovechkin doesn't make anybody better?  What did Dainus Zubrus do before he was put on a line with Ovechkin?  How about Chris Clark, who in his first season playing with Ovechkin doubled goal and points totals?  What about the leadership?  The fact that he will draw people here to play with him?  Or the fact that everyone raves about what a great person he is or how hard he works?  Or that most of the players in the league think he's the best in the game?  And besides, i've never seen the guy complain to the refs...Call me when he takes a hit and glares at the Ref as he skates by wondering why a call wasn't made, or when he gets hit and flops like he's just been shot... Lemeiux certainly taught Crosby that aspect of the game well...

BeerBandit

03-18-2007, 07:04 AM

sailor wrote: Gwen wrote: Wow, I know I'll be hammered for this, but I"m gonna go with Ovechkin. I appreciate Crosby's talent, leadership, etc. but I just can't STAND how the media is all on his shit. Yes, I won't deny he's putting up RIDICULOUS numbers, but it just irked me that before he ever played his first game in the league they're calling him "the next one". I think you need to earn a title like that, and it's not that Crosby isn't well on his way, it's just it should take 5 or so seasons before you can get accolades like that. I mean for what its worth what if someone comes around who is better than Crosby, will he be the Next Next One? Ovechkin's "Dream On" goal montage on you tube speaks volumes to his ability to make ridiculous goals, and I realize flash only gets you so far and should Crosby's leadership take him further than so be it, but seriously both of these guys need more time in the league to show they've got staying power and not just youthful raw talent.  (I'm skeered to press "post message", hahah) no slam here, but you really can't fault crosby for the adoration and adulation of others.btw, no contest...all crosby...all the time. go penguins!! I completely agree (except for the go penguins remark.  Pens/Devs would be a great playoff series if it happens.)  The converse is true here in NY.  Not to turn this into a baseball thread, but A-Rod is getting hammered here.  I'm a Met fan and I feel sorry for this guy.  The fans and the media shit on him for every word that comes out of his mouth.  But what is he supposed to do.  If he answers one way he's called a quitter, if he answers the other way he's a liar,  if he doesn't answer at all he's an asshole.  And who the fuck cares if he a Jeter aren't friends anymore.  Sports media has gotten absolutely ridiculous in the last 10 years.  I can't even watch Sportscenter anymore.  It's as bad as the Network news.

BeerBandit

03-18-2007, 07:07 AM

El Mudo wrote: BeerBandit wrote: Kevin wrote: BeerBandit wrote: Crosby is sick. Did you see him score through 4 Canadiens last night. He may be a pussy who drops to the ice from a handshake, but he's at least the best since Forsberg's pre-injury days. You could make a case that there was no better player, ever, than pre injury, Forsberg. Speed, shot, pass, grit, all around... I think he was too gritty for his own good. Yeah, it's a shame what's happened to him. I can only go back to the late 80's when Gretsky reigned supreme, but Forsberg and Fedorov were the best that I've seen personally seen. And now we have Crosby. Don't get me wrong Ovechkin is good. His problem is he's all the Caps have. Like Gretksy, Crosby's got a nice core developing around him. Yeah....and Alexander Semin is only going to get close to 40 goals...and Nicholas Backstrom is coming next year....and another top 3 pick...and Simeon Varlamov...plus oodles and oodles of Salary Cap room...and young forwards like Boyd Gordon and Bryan Sutherby and Alexandre Giroux and Eric Fehr...good young defensemen like Bryan Pothier and Mike Green and Shoane Morrison... *sarcasm* Yeah...i'd say he's all we have... *sarcasm* Pittsburgh has had years to stockpile top 3 picks, and theyve now got a lot of horses because of that. I don't think we're that far away, and we were really competitive this year before Olie hurt his knee. Besides the obvious reasons I'd take Ovechkin, its his physical play that I like the most. His very first shift in the NHL, he destroyed Radoslav Suchy of Columbus and broke the glass at the Phone Booth. The problem is though, its tough to compare Crosby and Ovechkin because theyre two different types of players. Crosby's more of a setup guy, while I'd compare Ovechkin to a power forward almost. It's like Bird and Magic almost. How can you say Ovechkin doesn't make anybody better? What did Dainus Zubrus do before he was put on a line with Ovechkin? How about Chris Clark, who in his first season playing with Ovechkin doubled goal and points totals? What about the leadership? The fact that he will draw people here to play with him? Or the fact that everyone raves about what a great person he is or how hard he works? Or that most of the players in the league think he's the best in the game? And besides, i've never seen the guy complain to the refs...Call me when he takes a hit and glares at the Ref as he skates by wondering why a call wasn't made, or when he gets hit and flops like he's just been shot... Lemeiux certainly taught Crosby that aspect of the game well...   I wasn't talking about who is coming "next year", or where your pick is "next year", or how much salary cap room you have for "next year."  I'm not bashing the Caps.  Right now Sid's team looks fucking great, and he looks like a phenom.

WhistlePig

03-18-2007, 07:44 AM

El Mudo wrote: <hr /
>BeerBandit wrote: <hr /
>Kevin wrote: [quote]<hr /
>BeerBandit wrote: Crosby is sick. Did you see
him score through 4 Canadiens last night. He may be a pussy who drops
to the ice from a handshake, but he's at least the best since Forsberg's pre-
injury days. You could make a case that there
was no better player, ever, than pre injury, Forsberg. Speed, shot, pass,
grit, all around... I think he was too gritty for his own good. Yeah, it's a shame
what's happened to him. I can only go back to the late 80's when Gretsky
reigned supreme, but Forsberg and Fedorov were the best that I've seen
personally seen. And now we have Crosby. Don't get me wrong
Ovechkin is good. His problem is he's all the Caps have. Like Gretksy, Crosby's got a nice core developing around him. ÿ</
blockquote>[quote]Yeah....and Alexander Semin is only going to get
close to 40 goals...and Nicholas Backstrom is coming next year....and
another top 3 pick...and Simeon Varlamov...plus oodles and oodles of Salary
Cap room...and young forwards like Boyd Gordon and Bryan Sutherby and
Alexandre Giroux and Eric Fehr...good young defensemen like Bryan Pothier
and Mike Green and Shoane Morrison... ÿ</
blockquote>[quote]*sarcasm* Yeah...i'd say he's all we have...
*sarcasm*ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ Pittsburgh has
had years to stockpile top 3 picks, and theyve now got a lot of horses
becauseÿÿ of ÿ ÿ ÿ ÿ that.ÿ I don't think we're that far away, and we were really
competitive this year before Olie hurtÿÿ ÿÿÿ ÿÿÿ his knee. ÿ[quote]Besides the obvious reasons
I'd take Ovechkin, its his physical play that I like the most.ÿ His very first
shift in the NHL, he destroyed Radoslav Suchy of Columbus and broke the
glass at the Phone Booth.ÿ The problem is though, its tough to compare
Crosby and Ovechkin because theyre two different types of players.ÿ
Crosby's more of a setup guy, while I'd compare Ovechkin to a power
forward almost.ÿ It's like Bird and Magic almost.</
blockquote>ÿHow can you say
Ovechkin doesn't make anybody better?ÿ What did Dainus Zubrus do before
he was put on a line with Ovechkin?ÿ How about Chris Clark, who in his first
season playing with Ovechkin doubled goal and points totals?ÿ What about
the leadership?ÿ The fact that he will draw people here to play with him?ÿ Or
the fact that everyone raves about what a great person he is or how hard
he works?ÿ Or that most of the players in the league think he's the best in
the game? ÿ[quote]And
besides, i've never seen the guy complain to the refs...Call me when he
takes a hit and glares at the Ref as he skates by wondering why a call
wasn't made, or when he gets hit and flops like he's just been shot...</
blockquote>ÿ[quote]Lemeiux certainly
taught Crosby that aspect of the game well...ÿ</
blockquote>ÿ[quote] </
blockquote>ÿÿ</
blockquote>ÿ

What he said!

Plus, Ovechkin is so humble you've gotta love that in a person. He was
recently spotted at a Wizards game in the stands with the regular folks. He
could easily have gotten free premium tickets but he bought his own.
That's class.

Gwen

03-18-2007, 08:23 AM

"Plus, Ovechkin is so humble you've gotta love that in a person. He was recently spotted at a Wizards game in the stands with the regular folks. He could easily have gotten free premium tickets but he bought his own. That's class."Lest we forget his Lays Commercials...no special treatment from the vending machines for him.

El Mudo

03-18-2007, 09:14 AM

And he even offered that lady reporter at the All Star game some delicous Lay's Chips!

spoon

03-19-2007, 12:57 AM

Sorry, I can only truly take Gwen's vote for Ovechkin seriously since Whistle and Mudo are both extremely biased.  That's like asking me or HHH to decide bt Roy and Brodeur!  Make your argument sure, but saying he's a man of the people bc he sat in normal seats at an NBA game is hilarious.  I guess stars really play by lesser standards huh!

El Mudo

03-19-2007, 06:02 AM

Patrick Roy OWNS Martin Brodeur.....end of story

LOAF

03-19-2007, 06:05 AM

El Mudo wrote: Patrick Roy OWNS Martin Brodeur.....end of story Maybe today, but I think Marty has a really good chance of taking over Roy as the best

MasterSoySauce

03-19-2007, 06:13 AM

i gotta go ovechkin, i think he's just as good and has alot more class. Crosby has such a stuck up attitude about himself.

weekapaugjz

03-19-2007, 08:12 AM

MasterSoySauce wrote: i gotta go ovechkin, i think he's just as good and has alot more class. Crosby has such a stuck up attitude about himself.  cause classy players hit guys from behind when they are going to the bench, right?  cause if it does, then ovechkin is one of the classiest players in the nhl.

Fallon

03-19-2007, 08:42 AM

Gwen wrote: Wow, I know I'll be hammered for this, but I"m gonna go with Ovechkin. I appreciate Crosby's talent, leadership, etc. but I just can't STAND how the media is all on his shit. Yes, I won't deny he's putting up RIDICULOUS numbers, but it just irked me that before he ever played his first game in the league they're calling him "the next one". I think you need to earn a title like that, and it's not that Crosby isn't well on his way, it's just it should take 5 or so seasons before you can get accolades like that. I mean for what its worth what if someone comes around who is better than Crosby, will he be the Next Next One? Ovechkin's "Dream On" goal montage on you tube speaks volumes to his ability to make ridiculous goals, and I realize flash only gets you so far and should Crosby's leadership take him further than so be it, but seriously both of these guys need more time in the league to show they've got staying power and not just youthful raw talent.  (I'm skeered to press "post message", hahah)  I'll go with Crosby, but damn that Dream On video was tight. He makes the defense look silly.

Gwen

03-19-2007, 11:05 AM

LOAF wrote: El Mudo wrote: Patrick Roy OWNS Martin Brodeur.....end of story Maybe today, but I think Marty has a really good chance of taking over Roy as the best Eff that. I know this isn't about them, but Roy > Marty. Not only in awesomeness and ability, but the fact that Roy pretty much revolutionized goaltending by bringing butterfly to the league. (yes, I know he didn't invent the butterfly style, but he sure as hell helped to popularize it in the NHL, and yes, I also know about Glen Hall so shhhhh)I never thought I'd say this, and Brett, feel free to save this for posterity, but Brodeur is a good goalie, but much like Crosby, the media has blown him wayyyy outta proportion. Plus he whines too much and that's beat. 

This message was edited by Gwen on 3-19-07 @ 3:06 PM

TheGameHHH

03-19-2007, 12:07 PM

Gwen wrote: LOAF wrote: El Mudo wrote: Patrick Roy OWNS Martin Brodeur.....end of story Maybe today, but I think Marty has a really good chance of taking over Roy as the best Eff that. I know this isn't about them, but Roy > Marty. Not only in awesomeness and ability, but the fact that Roy pretty much revolutionized goaltending by bringing butterfly to the league. (yes, I know he didn't invent the butterfly style, but he sure as hell helped to popularize it in the NHL, and yes, I also know about Glen Hall so shhhhh)I never thought I'd say this, and Brett, feel free to save this for posterity, but Brodeur is a good goalie, but much like Crosby, the media has blown him wayyyy outta proportion. Plus he whines too much and that's beat. This message was edited by Gwen on 3-19-07 @ 3:06 PM i wanna kick your ass for saying he's whiney, but at least you admitted he's awesome and you have a secret crush on him.

El Mudo

03-19-2007, 01:49 PM

Gwen wrote: LOAF wrote: El Mudo wrote: Patrick Roy OWNS Martin Brodeur.....end of story Maybe today, but I think Marty has a really good chance of taking over Roy as the best Eff that. I know this isn't about them, but Roy > Marty. Not only in awesomeness and ability, but the fact that Roy pretty much revolutionized goaltending by bringing butterfly to the league. (yes, I know he didn't invent the butterfly style, but he sure as hell helped to popularize it in the NHL, and yes, I also know about Glen Hall so shhhhh)I never thought I'd say this, and Brett, feel free to save this for posterity, but Brodeur is a good goalie, but much like Crosby, the media has blown him wayyyy outta proportion. Plus he whines too much and that's beat. This message was edited by Gwen on 3-19-07 @ 3:06 PM Oh my God....I've been saying the exact same things for years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know youre getting married already Gwen, but can I be your second string husband?

LOAF

03-19-2007, 02:08 PM

Compare Stats.......Oviously you can't go by career because Roy has played many more seasons, but compare the seasonal stats. <table border="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td align="left" valign="top">Martin Brodeur, </td></tr><tr><td align="left" valign="top">Height: 6-2  Weight: 205  HHOF: </td></tr><tr><td align="left" valign="top">Born May 6, 1972, Montreal, Quebec </td></tr><tr><td align="left" valign="top"><table border="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td width="18%"></td><td width="10%"></td><td colspan="7" bgcolor="#cccccc"><div align="center">Regular Season </div></td><td colspan="7" bgcolor="#009999"><div align="center">Playoffs</div></td></tr><tr><td width="18%">Team</td><td width="10%">Season</td><td width="5%">GP</td><td width="5%">Min</td><td width="5%">W</td><td width="5%">L</td><td width="5%">T</td><td width="5%">SO</td><td width="5%">GAA</td><td width="5%">GP</td><td width="5%">Min</td><td width="5%">W</td><td width="5%">L</td><td width="5%">T</td><td width="5%">SO</td><td width="5%">GAA</td></tr><tr><td width="18%">New Jersey Devils</td><td width="10%">2003-04</td><td width="5%">75</td><td width="5%">4555</td><td width="5%">38</td><td width="5%">26</td><td width="5%"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helve

Gwen

03-19-2007, 03:35 PM

El Mudo wrote: I know youre getting married already Gwen, but can I be your second string husband?   Yes, but you'll have to accept that I will steal your kitty and I went to UConn so my basketball loyalty lies therein.

Gvac

03-19-2007, 04:01 PM

If I'm a GM starting an expansion team and I can draft either Crosby or Ovechkin I take Crosby in a heart beat.  Ovechkin is a bona fide sniper and he'll fill the net with goals, but Crosby has "it."  He'll bring a Cup or two to Pittsburgh within the next 5 years, and if he stays healthy he has a chance to go down as an all-time great.  As far the goalie argument?  It's almost impossible to tell because Brodeur has spent his entire career playing for a team that uses a style of play that limits the amount of quality scoring chances he'll face.  Not to mention it's about as exciting as watching grass grow.  Through the years I saw Roy look absolutely other worldly, and at times look positively awful.  I remember him getting shelled several times, most notably against the Red Wings in a game 7.

El Mudo

03-19-2007, 04:22 PM

Gvac wrote: If I'm a GM starting an expansion team and I can draft either Crosby or Ovechkin I take Crosby in a heart beat. Ovechkin is a bona fide sniper and he'll fill the net with goals, but Crosby has "it." He'll bring a Cup or two to Pittsburgh within the next 5 years, and if he stays healthy he has a chance to go down as an all-time great. As far the goalie argument? It's almost impossible to tell because Brodeur has spent his entire career playing for a team that uses a style of play that limits the amount of quality scoring chances he'll face. Not to mention it's about as exciting as watching grass grow. Through the years I saw Roy look absolutely other worldly, and at times look positively awful. I remember him getting shelled several times, most notably against the Red Wings in a game 7.  Roy's 1985 playoffs run was one of the greatest ever....he basically won the cup for the Canadiens BY HIMSELF....at NINETEEN...he had 1.95 GAA and won the Conn Smythe...I still shake my head in disbelief watching the highlights of him in those playoffs Gwen, we can both wallow in the cuteness of my kitty cats, and we can work around the UConn thing...they play in the Big East, so I don't really worry about them.  I care more about beating Tobacco Road

El Mudo

03-19-2007, 04:27 PM

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaiN8HjEy74">Plus, Patrick Roy should be considered the greatest goaltender ever just for this clip here</a>

Captain Rooster

03-19-2007, 04:53 PM

I gotta go with Crosby--the kid is 19 and has scored over 100 points. Assists, for some reason, are not appreciated. Think of the greats--tons of assists.

LOAF

03-19-2007, 05:56 PM

I am not trying to make an arguement against Roy. I think he was amazing, all I am saying is that it is not out of the question that brodeur and roy should be mentioned in the same breath, and also that by the end of his career Brodeur's numbers will likely surpass most of roy's.

spoon

03-19-2007, 11:27 PM

LOAF wrote: I am not trying to make an arguement against Roy. I think he was amazing, all I am saying is that it is not out of the question that brodeur and roy should be mentioned in the same breath, and also that by the end of his career Brodeur's numbers will likely surpass most of roy's. Hell I don't think anyone has any problem with them being mentioned in the same breath, we're just trying to see who likes one over the other.  Different styles, different teams in front of them but that common thread of big wins so it's not crazy to put them together already.  Brodeur's idol growing up was Roy in fact.  Yet Marty is more a hybrid goalie to be honest which is strange I guess.  Looking at the stats shows just how much the second goalie played back in the 80's and early 90's.  In fact, only a few teams to this day use their goalie as much as the Devils and I think a lot of that has to do with the team being truly built out from him.  Lou has pretty much made that clear as he's the only guy he refuses to let go or even debate his salary.  Everyone else can go if they want according to Lou.  My problem with the wins record is that there aren't ties any longer and that will have a HUGE impact on goalie records over time and I promise you much lesser goalies will pass both Roy and Brodeur in the end do to this fact.  Other truly good goalies (if they can keep up their level as it's tough at this position just ask Jim Carey, Brent Johnson and Jose Theodore) will simply destroy the record if they play long enough as well.  So an * is really needed in the future if you ask me.

spoon

03-19-2007, 11:36 PM

Here's how I prove this point.  Just look at Roy's stats for example.  He had 151 ties in his career and all those would have gone one way or another in the new system.  Using Roy's 64% win factor, that would mean his theoretical record in those games would have been 97-54 giving Roy a grand total of 648 wins which is at least three good to great seasons of goaltending even in this age of playin more games as the starter barring injury too of course.Hope you can follow this one as Brodeur has a few season of this advantage under his belt and a few left as well so he'll benefit, but not to the extent of the newest top goalies.

spoon

03-19-2007, 11:41 PM

<table border="0"><tbody><tr><td class="title">Martin Brodeur (G)</td><td width="10"> </td><td>Goalie Born May 6 1972 -- Montreal, PQ Height 6.01 -- Weight 205</td><td width="10"> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td class="l" colspan="6">Selected by <a href="http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr000051.html">New Jersey Devils</a> round 1 #20 overall <a href="http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl1990e.html">1990 NHL Entry Draft</a> </td></tr></tbody></table> Goalie statistics may be incomplete<table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tbody><tr><td class="s" colspan="3"> </td><td class="tabtit s" colspan="4">RS Scoring</td><td class="tabtit s" colspan="10">RS Goalie Stats</td><td class="tabtit s" colspan="4">PO Scoring</td></tr><tr><td class="l s tabtit2" width="50">Season</td><td class="l s tabtit2" width="150">Team</td><td class="l s tabtit2" width="35">Lge</td><td class="s tabtit2">GP</td><td class="s tabtit2">G</td><td class="s tabtit2">A</td><td class="s tabtit2">PIM</td><td class="s tabtit2">Min</td><td class="s tabtit2">GA</td><td class="s tabtit2">EN</td><td class="s tabtit2">SO</td><td class="s tabtit2">GAA</td><td class="s tabtit2">W</td><td class="s tabtit2">L</td><td class="s tabtit2">T</td><td class="s tabtit2">Svs</td><td class="l s tabtit2">Pct</td><td class="s tabtit2">GP</td><td class="s tabtit2">G</td><td class="s tabtit2">A</td><td class="s tabtit2">PIM</td></tr><tr><td class="s l">1989-90</td><td class="s l"><a href="http://www.ronfez.net/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0010341990.html">St. Hyacinthe Lasers</a></td><td class="s l">QMJHL</td><td class="s">42</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">10</td><td class="s">2333</td><td class="s">156</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">4.01</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0.000</td><td class="s">12</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">14</td></tr><tr class="shade1"><td class="s l">1990-91</td><td class="s l"><a href="http://www.ronfez.net/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0010341991.html">St. Hyacinthe Lasers</a></td><td class="s l">QMJHL</td><td class="s">52</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">25</td><td class="s">2946</td><td class="s">162</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">2</td><td class="s">3.30</td><td class="s">22</td><td class="s">24</td><td class="s">4</td><td class="s">1257</td><td class="s">0.886</td><td class="s">-</td><td class="s">-</td><td class="s">-</td><td class="s">-</td></tr><tr><td class="s l">1991-92</td><td class="s l"><a href="http://www.ronfez.net/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0010341992.html">St. Hyacinthe Lasers</a></td><td class="s l">QMJHL</td><td class="s">48</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">39</td><td class="s">2846</td><td class="s">161</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">2</td><td class="s">3.39</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0.000</td><td class="s"> </td><td class="s"> </td><td class="s"> </td><td class="s"> </td></tr><tr class="shade1"><td class="s l">1991-92</td><td class="s l"><a href="http://www.ronfez.net/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000511992.html">New Jersey Devils</a></td><td class="s l">NHL</td><td class="s">4</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">179</td><td class="s">10</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">3.35</td><td class="s">2</td><td class="s">1</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">75</td><td class="s">0.882</td><td class="s">1</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td></tr><tr><td class="s l">1992-93</td><td class="s l"><a href="http://www.ronfez.net/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000211993.html">Utica Devils</a></td><td class="s l">AHL</td><td class="s">32</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">4</td><td class="s">6</td><td class="s">1952</td><td class="s">131</td><td class="s">3</td><td clas

spoon

03-19-2007, 11:42 PM

<table border="0"><tbody><tr><td class="title">Patrick Roy (G)</td><td width="10"> </td><td>Goalie Born Oct 5 1965 -- Quebec City, PQ Height 6.00 -- Weight 165</td><td width="10"> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td class="l" colspan="6">Selected by <a href="http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr000045.html">Montreal Canadiens</a> round 3 #51 overall <a href="http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl1984e.html">1984 NHL Entry Draft</a> </td></tr></tbody></table> Goalie statistics may be incomplete<table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tbody><tr><td class="s" colspan="3"> </td><td class="tabtit s" colspan="4">RS Scoring</td><td class="tabtit s" colspan="10">RS Goalie Stats</td><td class="tabtit s" colspan="4">PO Scoring</td></tr><tr><td class="l s tabtit2" width="50">Season</td><td class="l s tabtit2" width="150">Team</td><td class="l s tabtit2" width="35">Lge</td><td class="s tabtit2">GP</td><td class="s tabtit2">G</td><td class="s tabtit2">A</td><td class="s tabtit2">PIM</td><td class="s tabtit2">Min</td><td class="s tabtit2">GA</td><td class="s tabtit2">EN</td><td class="s tabtit2">SO</td><td class="s tabtit2">GAA</td><td class="s tabtit2">W</td><td class="s tabtit2">L</td><td class="s tabtit2">T</td><td class="s tabtit2">Svs</td><td class="l s tabtit2">Pct</td><td class="s tabtit2">GP</td><td class="s tabtit2">G</td><td class="s tabtit2">A</td><td class="s tabtit2">PIM</td></tr><tr><td class="s l">1982-83</td><td class="s l"><a href="http://www.ronfez.net/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0012171983.html">Granby Bisons</a></td><td class="s l">QMJHL</td><td class="s">54</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">14</td><td class="s">2808</td><td class="s">293</td><td class="s">3</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">6.26</td><td class="s">13</td><td class="s">35</td><td class="s">1</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0.000</td><td class="s">-</td><td class="s">-</td><td class="s">-</td><td class="s">-</td></tr><tr class="shade1"><td class="s l">1983-84</td><td class="s l"><a href="http://www.ronfez.net/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0012171984.html">Granby Bisons</a></td><td class="s l">QMJHL</td><td class="s">61</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">6</td><td class="s">15</td><td class="s">3585</td><td class="s">265</td><td class="s">4</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">4.44</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0.000</td><td class="s">4</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td></tr><tr><td class="s l">1984-85</td><td class="s l"><a href="http://www.ronfez.net/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0012171985.html">Granby Bisons</a></td><td class="s l">QMJHL</td><td class="s">44</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">2</td><td class="s">74</td><td class="s">2463</td><td class="s">228</td><td class="s">3</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">5.55</td><td class="s">16</td><td class="s">25</td><td class="s">1</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0.000</td><td class="s">-</td><td class="s">-</td><td class="s">-</td><td class="s">-</td></tr><tr class="shade1"><td class="s l">1984-85</td><td class="s l"><a href="http://www.ronfez.net/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000271985.html">Sherbrooke Canadiens</a></td><td class="s l">AHL</td><td class="s">1</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">60</td><td class="s">4</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">4.00</td><td class="s">1</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">23</td><td class="s">0.852</td><td class="s">13</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">10</td></tr><tr><td class="s l">1984-85</td><td class="s l"><a href="http://www.ronfez.net/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000451985.html">Montreal Canadiens</a></td><td class="s l">NHL</td><td class="s">1</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">20</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0</td><td class="s">0.00</td><td

spoon

03-19-2007, 11:59 PM

To me, the biggest factors in this debate to consider are the teams in front of the two goalies, their impact on the game, the eras they play/played in, and finally the difference in their performance in the playoffs.  Both got ripped off with the awards bc a new name or flashy goalie stole the spotlight.  A few times a flashy goalie won the Vezina over Roy when they shouldn't (Roy vs. Theodore in 2002 for example), and Giggy shouldn't have won the Conn Smythe over Brodeur.  Sure the others had great runs, but they weren't at the same level as the Roy and Brodeur at the time and I thought they both got ripped.  And if it wasn't for an amazing run by Joe Sakic in 1996, Roy would have easily had his 4th Conn Smythe as well as it was very close between the two.  Yet even so, 3 Conn Smythe's to none, 3 Vezina's to 2, and 5 William M Jennings to 4 right now gives an edge to Roy in my mind.  I'm biased no doubt, but I really tried to put my reasoning out there and I take nothing away from Marty as he still has time to tack on some awards.  In fact, he is lining up a Vezina tie as we speak!  Unless the vote goes Luongo's way bc he has been the difference in Vancouver.  And remember what I said about a new name, especially if they play in Canada.

This message was edited by spoon on 3-20-07 @ 4:07 AM

Gwen

03-20-2007, 02:48 AM

Spoon, i think you nailed it as far as mentioning the fact that there are no ties anymore, and the fact that Marty is the workhorse of that team with it built to suit him as well as the fact that they're two different styles of goaltenders.  It's like comparing apple pie to apple crisp.  Same idea different execution.  They've got similar qualities that you can discuss, but you'll never truly be able to truly measure them against one another because of the changes in the game.  The same will probably be true about whoever surpasses Brodeur in stats.  That's probably the only drawback to the evolution of the game.  I think it's true for any sport though. As far as your point about this years Vezina: Has Brodeur had a great season?  No doubt, but can you really not say the same about Luongo?  He's just plain nasty in net.

QueensideDave

03-20-2007, 10:11 AM

Crosby over Ovechkin.  Both will be dominant players in the league for a long time but Crosby's biggest skill is his passing game on top of being able to score himself.  to me, that is much more valuable.  Ovechkin will probably have more goals at the end of his career but Crosby will have the more dominating stats. Roy vs Brodeur could be one of those arguments that go on forever.  I think Brodeur's stats are better and the fact that he has 12 shutouts this season when the game has been designed to increase scoring speaks for itself.  But Brodeur also has the most consistent defense in the league in front of him, I would have to wonder how good his stats would be if he played for the Panthers instead of Luongo.  I think Luongo has done more with no defense then any other goaltender in 30 years when he was with the panthers.

El Mudo

03-20-2007, 03:41 PM

Maybe its just the number, but Luongo definitely reminds me of Kirk McLean for some reason...

weekapaugjz

03-20-2007, 03:46 PM

El Mudo wrote: Maybe its just the number, but Luongo definitely reminds me of Kirk McLean for some reason... i love watching luongo play.  i try to catch canucks games when they are on the late game in hockey night in canada.  i have taken a few things from watching him play and comments after the game about how he stays way out of the net to cover the angles.  if you watch, most times the back of his skates are in front of the crease.  most goalies don't play out of the net that far.  it has worked wonders for me playing in men's leauges.

El Mudo

03-20-2007, 04:26 PM

weekapaugjz wrote: El Mudo wrote: Maybe its just the number, but Luongo definitely reminds me of Kirk McLean for some reason... i love watching luongo play. i try to catch canucks games when they are on the late game in hockey night in canada. i have taken a few things from watching him play and comments after the game about how he stays way out of the net to cover the angles. if you watch, most times the back of his skates are in front of the crease. most goalies don't play out of the net that far. it has worked wonders for me playing in men's leauges.  It also helps to be 6 foot 4 and wear gigantic goalie equipment...but they cut back on the equipment under the new rules... Actually, goalies have started to get around the rules, especially the smaller ones.  There's a max length to the pads you can wear, and its not dependent on how big the goalie is, so you have smaller goaltenders wearing the biggest allowable equipment you can play with.  I remember reading an article where I think Antero Nittymaki had such huge pads he could completely close down the 5 hole in the butterfly just by putting his pads together...

weekapaugjz

03-20-2007, 04:36 PM

El Mudo wrote: weekapaugjz wrote: El Mudo wrote: Maybe its just the number, but Luongo definitely reminds me of Kirk McLean for some reason... i love watching luongo play. i try to catch canucks games when they are on the late game in hockey night in canada. i have taken a few things from watching him play and comments after the game about how he stays way out of the net to cover the angles. if you watch, most times the back of his skates are in front of the crease. most goalies don't play out of the net that far. it has worked wonders for me playing in men's leauges. It also helps to be 6 foot 4 and wear gigantic goalie equipment...but they cut back on the equipment under the new rules... Actually, goalies have started to get around the rules, especially the smaller ones. There's a max length to the pads you can wear, and its not dependent on how big the goalie is, so you have smaller goaltenders wearing the biggest allowable equipment you can play with. I remember reading an article where I think Antero Nittymaki had such huge pads he could completely close down the 5 hole in the butterfly just by putting his pads together...   the way the cut of new goalie pads are, it completely shuts the five hole.  ive been looking into new pads cause mine are like 10 years old and falling apart.  goalies i have seen that ive played against are terrible but have a beautiful looking butterfly all because of their pads.  i think the length limit in the nhl is 36 inch pads.  thats what i am going to get cause im 6'3''.  but goalies who are 5'9'' can get like 33 inch pads with extensions to to make them as big as they can.  im glad they cut down on the size of the shoulder pads on goalies, i remember garth snows made him look like a fucking transformer.