Is It Time For A 2nd American Revolution? [Archive]

weekapaugjz

02-12-2007, 09:10 PM

if you follow the advice of thomas jefferson, something like revolution every 19 years.  i am similar to your thoughts of moderately conservative but have been becoming more libertarian, and there are many things in this country that need to drastically change.  is it possibly to get instituionalized change throughout the country with all the red tape of government bureaucracy?  personally, i think it would be extremely hard to do if not impossible.  i dont know if it will be a revolution but maybe, possibly (i know its a stretch) a civil war between the red and the blue states?  im rambling now and will stop.

MrPink

02-12-2007, 09:10 PM

From one libertarian to another, watch what you fuckin say. Using the word "revolution", you'll have some guys in suits at your door in the morning. I agree with you in that we have to overhaul the entire structure. Maybe we can go back to having the US Constitution being the law of the land.

Midkiff

02-12-2007, 09:11 PM

Not a bad idea at all!

weekapaugjz

02-12-2007, 09:15 PM

MrPink wrote: From one libertarian to another, watch what you fuckin say. Using the word "revolution", you'll have some guys in suits at your door in the morning. I agree with you in that we have to overhaul the entire structure. Maybe we can go back to having the US Constitution being the law of the land. but the thing is, who's interpretation of the constitution? it is fairly obvious if you know the history of the supreme court, the constitution has been widely open to interpretation. i would draft new versions of constituions to have passed by the states, but seeing how divided this country is in political views, i dont think this could ever happen. make two countries, red and blue, and let people move to where they want. again, im rambling. 

This message was edited by weekapaugjz on 2-13-07 @ 1:16 AM

PapaBear

02-12-2007, 09:17 PM

MrPink wrote:  watch what you fuckin say. Using the word "revolution", you'll have some guys in suits at your door in the morning. Just drop the "r" and call it "evolution". Oh... wait... They don't like that word, either. Never mind.

MrPink

02-12-2007, 09:19 PM

I was just thinking that a different government may not be far away. Either the one world government will take over or our country will collapse.

kellermcgee21

02-12-2007, 09:21 PM

I think we should vote every two years for a new president but there should be no restrictions on how many times a president can run.  If someone is doing a great job why shouldn't they be allowed to stay in office.  We should also do away with the two party system... to have only two choices for the most important position in the world is crazy.  A change will come at some point but it won't be until we are in the crapper as a country and have no other choice but to change.

Fat_Sunny

02-12-2007, 09:23 PM

JZ, Fat Wishes It Were As Simple As Red And Blue, But It Is Not.  Whether Red State Or Blue, It Is Money In Politics, And Payoffs, And Selfishness, And Political Correctness, And Lack Or Work Ethic, And Loss Of Initiative and Self-Motivation, And New Cultures And Moralities Being Imposed Without Discussion, And Without Consent, And Above All The Loss Of The "Rugged Individual" That Made This Country Great.Momentous Changes Are Occuring That We, As A People, Have Not Agreed To.

MrPink

02-12-2007, 09:32 PM

… the next revolution … will be when those who work refuse to support those who don't. – Walter HickelIt is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning. – Henry Ford The American people are becoming more and more afraid of, and are running away from, their own revolution. – Leonard E. ReadIt is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government. – Thomas Paine

narc

02-12-2007, 09:32 PM

This thread is entirely composed of crazy talk and fail.

weekapaugjz

02-12-2007, 09:35 PM

jz knows it isn't that simple, i just didn't feel like filling pages with my response and bore everyone to death, which i probably do on a daily basis.  one of my goals in becoming a social studies teacher is to teach students how to become social justice oriented students.  get them to ask questions about what they feel is wrong with society and ways they can go about changing their society.  i feel the study of history is a very valuable tool in teaching about this because you can go back and study past cultures, examine positives and negatives, how it affected the world, etc.  when they have practiced doing this is social studies classrooms, they are more likely to continue it for the rest of their lives.  loftly goals, i know, but you have to have a focus on how you want to teach students because they are going to be making all the decisions about this country when all of us are shitting our pants in old folks homes.

MrPink

02-12-2007, 09:36 PM

kellermcgee21 wrote: I think we should vote every two years for a new president but there should be no restrictions on how many times a president can run.  If someone is doing a great job why shouldn't they be allowed to stay in office.  We should also do away with the two party system... to have only two choices for the most important position in the world is crazy.  A change will come at some point but it won't be until we are in the crapper as a country and have no other choice but to change. If voting could change things, it would be illegal. – Unknown

weekapaugjz

02-12-2007, 09:36 PM

narc wrote: This thread is entirely composed of crazy talk and fail.   what thread on this board isn't?

weekapaugjz

02-12-2007, 09:37 PM

MrPink wrote: It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government. – Thomas Paine this is one of my favorite historical quotes.

MrPink

02-12-2007, 09:41 PM

I like quotes because I'm not that eloquent.

narc

02-12-2007, 09:41 PM

This one is especially crazy though. We're more likely to be invaded by a coalition of Mexico, China and Sierra Leone than have a revolution or civil war. And Thomas Paine was a jackass who died broke and crazy and was largely disowned by the framers.

weekapaugjz

02-12-2007, 09:42 PM

MrPink wrote: I like quotes because I'm not that eloquent. can i quote that?

kellermcgee21

02-12-2007, 09:42 PM

MrPink wrote: kellermcgee21 wrote: I think we should vote every two years for a new president but there should be no restrictions on how many times a president can run.  If someone is doing a great job why shouldn't they be allowed to stay in office.  We should also do away with the two party system... to have only two choices for the most important position in the world is crazy.  A change will come at some point but it won't be until we are in the crapper as a country and have no other choice but to change. If voting could change things, it would be illegal. – Unknownthat is funny and probably true

HBox

02-12-2007, 09:43 PM

You know what, MAN, we need to take down the MAN, MAN! He's holding us down, MAN! We need a revolution, MAN! All those lazy welfare moms are stealing my paycheck, MAN! The bourgeoisie, wherever it has got the upper hand, has put an end to all feudal, patriarchal, idyllic relations, MAN! The corrupt bourgeois are oppressing the proletariat, MAN! We must seize the means of production, MAN! No Washington Fat Cat is gonna tell my girlfriend what she's gonna do with her vagina, MAN! MAN must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself, MAN! The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life, MAN!And so on and so forth.

weekapaugjz

02-12-2007, 09:43 PM

narc wrote: This one is especially crazy though. We're more likely to be invaded by a coalition of Mexico, China and Sierra Leone than have a revolution or civil war. And Thomas Paine was a jackass who died broke and crazy and was largely disowned by the framers.  yes, i know, but i always find it fun to speculate about the end of the "united states" and what will come next.and that's why i like thomas paine so much.

narc

02-12-2007, 09:46 PM

I would like to see parts of states secede and go to other states. That would be cool. Like if Connecticut and Massachusetts divvied up Rhode Island.  

This message was edited by narc on 2-13-07 @ 1:48 AM

sr71blackbird

02-12-2007, 09:48 PM

The very fact that we can even have this discussion, without fear, is proof to me that this system works.  It really was not all that long ago in other areas of the world when this disussion would have been been done in fearfull whispers in dark alleys.  You just have to trust that people will demans changes from their leaders.  But the thing is, the concepts that we all used to live by and used to all be taught at home, in school and in worship are not enforced on children as they used to.  These kids grow up with no guidence and direction and when they mature, they have no idea about people who give a shit and why it is important. 

Fat_Sunny

02-12-2007, 09:50 PM

Mr. Pink, Since You Like Quotes, And Since Today (Well, Yesterday) Was His Birthday, Have You Ever Read Lincoln's 2nd Inaugural Address?  It Is, By Far, The Most Beautiful And Brilliant Speech Ever Written.  Here Is An Excerpt:"Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh." If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said 'the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. <dl><dd>With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations. </dd><dd></dd></dl>Here Is The Link To The Whole Speech.  Fat Has Memorized It, Along With The Gettysburg Address.  It Is Something Everyone Should Know.<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln's_second_inaugural_address">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln's_second_inaugural_address</a>

MrPink

02-12-2007, 10:08 PM

sr71blackbird wrote: The very fact that we can even have this discussion, without fear, is proof to me that this system works.  It really was not all that long ago in other areas of the world when this disussion would have been been done in fearfull whispers in dark alleys.  You just have to trust that people will demans changes from their leaders.  But the thing is, the concepts that we all used to live by and used to all be taught at home, in school and in worship are not enforced on children as they used to.  These kids grow up with no guidence and direction and when they mature, they have no idea about people who give a shit and why it is important.  It is fuckin awesome that we have freedom of speech, but our rights are being whittled away like the bar of soap in the Irish Spring commercial. The individual is totally fucked in this country. Frivolous laws like banning online poker, full auto rifles, and cocaine are made not help people, but to create a larger budget and increase taxes. Both the Democrats and the Republicans are a corrupt group of people that can't wait to have you bend over so they can fuck you.Whatever, I'm rambling.

This message was edited by MrPink on 2-13-07 @ 2:09 AM

Fat_Sunny

02-12-2007, 10:12 PM

narc wrote: This one is especially crazy though. We're more likely to be invaded by a coalition of Mexico, China and Sierra Leone than have a revolution or civil war. Narc, That Is Exactly The Point.  We ARE Being Invaded, And We Don't Talk About It And We Have Not Agreed To It.  It Is Like The Scene In Scarface Where The Colombian Guys Are Over-Running Pacino's House, But He Is So Drugged Out He Can't Fight Back.  We Are Being Over-Run But We Are The Drugged-Out Scarface And We Are Helpless To Act.  It Is Not Just Immigration, It Is The Mideast, And It is Our Stupid, Selfish Politicians Who Are Paid Off Regardless Of Party, And It Is The Lack Of National Dialogue On ANYTHING Of Consequence. Again, Big Changes Are Happening That We Have Not, As A Nation, Discussed, And We Have Not, As A Nation, Agreed To.  The System MUST Be Shaken Up.But, Sadly, Narc Is Right, It Won't Be.

weekapaugjz

02-12-2007, 10:21 PM

fs, the same exact thing was said about the second wave of immigration (irish, italian, slovak, hungarian, etc.).  social scientists were saying that it was going to be the downfall of the the united states and everything it stood for. (that god forsaken catholocism).  none of these groups were said to be assimilated into the "american" culture, and they eventually did.  im still on the fence about current immigration, but i always seem to come back to this arguement.  why should all the "european" immigrants be allowed to come in a century ago, and any other group (mexican, vietnamese, korean, haitian, etc.) be excluded today?

MrPink

02-12-2007, 10:30 PM

Fat_Sunny wrote: Mr. Pink, Since You Like Quotes, And Since Today (Well, Yesterday) Was His Birthday, Have You Ever Read Lincoln's 2nd Inaugural Address?  It Is, By Far, The Most Beautiful And Brilliant Speech Ever Written.  Here Is An Excerpt:"Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh." If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said 'the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. <dl><dd>With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations. </dd><dd></dd></dl>Here Is The Link To The Whole Speech.  Fat Has Memorized It, Along With The Gettysburg Address.  It Is Something Everyone Should Know.<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln's_second_inaugural_address">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln's_second_inaugural_address</a>I've never read it before, but while reading it on wikipedia, I realized that Lincoln gets to the point.

Fat_Sunny

02-12-2007, 10:31 PM

JZ, Fat is 100% Pro Immigration.  100%.  It Is Just That We Are Not Doing It In A Rational Manner.  We Are Being Over-Run Without Having A Dialogue About It.  In The Old Days, An Immigrant Came Through Ellis Island And Had A Sponsor.  It Was Logical, And We Knew Who Was Coming In, And When, And Where They Were Going.  It Was Thought Out, Voted On, And Implemented.  Now, It Is Happening Without Any Control.  The American People Have Not Said "Yes" To 12,000,000 New People, But Here They Are.Fat Just Wants To Say "Who Are You" And "Who Knows You" And "What Skill Do You Have To Offer The USA" And Then He Says "Come On In"!Please Do Not Read This As An Anti Immigration Thread; It Is Not.  Immigration Is Just One Of The 1000 Examples Where The Politicians Have Let Us Down!

MrPink

02-12-2007, 10:34 PM

weekapaugjz wrote: fs, the same exact thing was said about the second wave of immigration (irish, italian, slovak, hungarian, etc.).  social scientists were saying that it was going to be the downfall of the the united states and everything it stood for. (that god forsaken catholocism).  none of these groups were said to be assimilated into the "american" culture, and they eventually did.  im still on the fence about current immigration, but i always seem to come back to this arguement.  why should all the "european" immigrants be allowed to come in a century ago, and any other group (mexican, vietnamese, korean, haitian, etc.) be excluded today? It's because we got too many fuckin people! It could be because they're not white. I don't much like immigration whether it's white, black, brown, red, or yellow people. I want a nice parking place.

weekapaugjz

02-12-2007, 10:36 PM

Fat_Sunny wrote: JZ, Fat is 100% Pro Immigration. 100%. It Is Just That We Are Not Doing It In A Rational Manner. We Are Being Over-Run Without Having A Dialogue About It. In The Old Days, An Immigrant Came Through Ellis Island And Had A Sponsor. It Was Logical, And We Knew Who Was Coming In, And When, And Where They Were Going. It Was Thought Out, Voted On, And Implemented. Now, It Is Happening Without Any Control. The American People Have Not Said "Yes" To 12,000,000 New People, But Here They Are.Fat Just Wants To Say "Who Are You" And "Who Knows You" And "What Skill Do You Have To Offer The USA" And Then He Says "Come On In"!Please Do Not Read This As An Anti Immigration Thread; It Is Not. Immigration Is Just One Of The 1000 Examples Where The Politicians Have Let Us Down! agreed, they need to develop a system in which these new immigrants can benefit from being in the united states instead of as illegal workers working for low wages.  again, i mentioned this before, there is so much red tape in the american bureaucracy system that it is extremely slow at reacting to problems.

weekapaugjz

02-12-2007, 10:38 PM

MrPink wrote: weekapaugjz wrote: It's because we got too many fuckin people! It could be because they're not white. I don't much like immigration whether it's white, black, brown, red, or yellow people. I want a nice parking place. thats a fantastic point of view.  are there seriously intelligent people out there that still subscribe to this garbage?

Fat_Sunny

02-12-2007, 10:40 PM

weekapaugjz wrote: It's because we got too many fuckin people! It could be because they're not white. I don't much like immigration whether it's white, black, brown, red, or yellow people. I want a nice parking place. thats a fantastic point of view.  are there seriously intelligent people out there that still subscribe to this garbage?Hey, It's 2:30 A.M. On A School Night.  Probably Just The Jack Daniels Talking!

MrPink

02-12-2007, 10:48 PM

Gilbey's Gin!

Se7en

02-12-2007, 10:52 PM

MrPink wrote: Frivolous laws like banning online poker, full auto rifles, and cocaine are made not help people, but to create a larger budget and increase taxes. This message was edited by MrPink on 2-13-07 @ 2:09 AM One of these things is not like the others.

PapaBear

02-12-2007, 10:53 PM

MrPink wrote: Gilbey's Gin! A perversion of the juniper berry!<img src="/messageboard/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/furious.gif" border="0" width="18" height="18" />

weekapaugjz

02-12-2007, 10:57 PM

PapaBear wrote: MrPink wrote: Gilbey's Gin! A perversion of the juniper berry!<img src="/messageboard/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/furious.gif" border="0" width="18" height="18" /> if it wasn't 10 degrees outside, i would walk to the bar around the corner and get a nice gin and tonic.  tasty.

MrPink

02-12-2007, 10:59 PM

PapaBear

02-12-2007, 11:04 PM

MrPink wrote: PapaBear wrote: MrPink wrote: Gilbey's Gin! A perversion of the juniper berry!<img src="/messageboard/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/furious.gif" border="0" width="18" height="18" />It's cheap...I just Googled "cheap whore". It's not my fault it's the first pic in the search.<img src="http://media.mlml.calstate.edu/albums/userpics/students/halloweenpics/normal_CheapWhoreHeather_normal.jpg" border="0" width="266" height="399" />

narc

02-13-2007, 12:13 AM

Se7en wrote: MrPink wrote: Frivolous laws like banning online poker, full auto rifles, and cocaine are made not help people, but to create a larger budget and increase taxes. This message was edited by MrPink on 2-13-07 @ 2:09 AM One of these things is not like the others. I was thinking the exact same thing. I think we should legalize marijuana. Cocaine, on the other hand, is a really dangerous drug that kills people. I don't think it's legal anywhere.   As for the immigrants, I agree completely with Weekapaug. And the amount of people who are coming in now are far far less than those that came in during the 19th century. We're not in danger of running out of land as a nation. I can understand where Mr. Pink is coming from though: in Maryland it seems like every other person in some parts is either Guatemalan or Haitian. There are very few latin immigrants in Buffalo. Most of the latin community there is Puerto Ricans or Mexicans who have been there for awhile. But I don't think we should be turning immigrants away (being entirely a descendant of immigrants myself). If they work hard and go through the citizenship process, I could give a shit. Not enough of them are. But I think we should make the citizenship requirements easier and cut off all government aid for all illegals - no schools, no witholding money for any government purpose, no welfare, nada. They only get human rights. Then there'd be NO excuse for them to not become citizenship.

sr71blackbird

02-13-2007, 01:49 AM

The point I was trying to make earlier is that this revolution needs to happen on a personal level.  At home, between you, your spouce and kids.  I am talking about morals and decency.  Think about whatever you imagine the 30's, 40's and 50's were like.  Back then one parent working was usually enough and when kids came home from school, your mother was there and she raised you.  Today, kids go to daycare and both parents work. No one raises the kids.  People were proper in that time and spoke nicely and had pride in themselves.  Listen how people talk in movies from that era.  They brought up on the show how people use to dress going to baseball games.  People wore suits and dresses to games!  Nobody blasted music.  If we could somehow get our culture back tio that mindset, while having all the benefits of our technology, and current attitude towards openness of acceptance of foreiners, gays etc, I believe we can make a paradise.  But it needs to start at home. 

Gvac

02-13-2007, 02:47 AM

Fat_Sunny wrote: JZ, Fat Wishes It Were As Simple As Red And Blue, But It Is Not. Whether Red State Or Blue, It Is Money In Politics, And Payoffs, And Selfishness, And Political Correctness, And Lack Or Work Ethic, And Loss Of Initiative and Self-Motivation, And New Cultures And Moralities Being Imposed Without Discussion, And Without Consent, And Above All The Loss Of The "Rugged Individual" That Made This Country Great.Momentous Changes Are Occuring That We, As A People, Have Not Agreed To.Well said, Fat...well said.  I couldn't agree more. The pioneer spirit that founded this country has all but vanished.  Time was, people came to America so they could be left alone.  Now, they come with a laundry list of entitlements.  The citiziens that were born here are even worse, looking to government as mommy and daddy and not a necessary evil.

sailor

02-13-2007, 03:27 AM

MrPink wrote: I like quotes because I'm not that eloquent. mod quote?

sailor

02-13-2007, 03:28 AM

narc wrote: This one is especially crazy though. We're more likely to be invaded by a coalition of Mexico, China and Sierra Leone than have a revolution or civil war. And Thomas Paine was a jackass who died broke and crazy and was largely disowned by the framers.  crazy talk.  and don't get me started on that sam adams.  ugh.

Bob Impact

02-13-2007, 05:22 AM

Gvac wrote: Well said, Fat...well said. I couldn't agree more. The pioneer spirit that founded this country has all but vanished. Time was, people came to America so they could be left alone. Now, they come with a laundry list of entitlements. The citiziens that were born here are even worse, looking to government as mommy and daddy and not a necessary evil. ”Yes, this is an age of moral crisis. Yes, you are bearing punishment for your evil. But it is not man who is now on trial and it is not human nature that will take the blame. It is your moral code that’s through, this time. Your moral code has reached its climax, the blind alley at the end of its course. And if you wish to go on living, what you now need is not to return to morality—you who have never known any—but to discover it." - Ayn Rand, Galt's Speech, Atlas Shrugged<a href="http://amberandchaos.com/blog/john-galts-atlas-shrugged-speech/">http://amberandchaos.com/blog/john-galts-atlas-shrugged-speech/ </a>

This message was edited by Bob Impact on 2-13-07 @ 9:24 AM

ralphbxny

02-13-2007, 05:47 AM

sailor wrote: narc wrote: This one is especially crazy though. We're more likely to be invaded by a coalition of Mexico, China and Sierra Leone than have a revolution or civil war. And Thomas Paine was a jackass who died broke and crazy and was largely disowned by the framers.  crazy talk.  and don't get me started on that sam adams.  ugh. He makes a hell of a beer how bad can he be?

sailor

02-13-2007, 05:49 AM

Bob Impact wrote: Gvac wrote: Well said, Fat...well said. I couldn't agree more. The pioneer spirit that founded this country has all but vanished. Time was, people came to America so they could be left alone. Now, they come with a laundry list of entitlements. The citiziens that were born here are even worse, looking to government as mommy and daddy and not a necessary evil. ”Yes, this is an age of moral crisis. Yes, you are bearing punishment for your evil. But it is not man who is now on trial and it is not human nature that will take the blame. It is your moral code that’s through, this time. Your moral code has reached its climax, the blind alley at the end of its course. And if you wish to go on living, what you now need is not to return to morality—you who have never known any—but to discover it." - Ayn Rand, Galt's Speech, Atlas Shrugged<a href="http://amberandchaos.com/blog/john-galts-atlas-shrugged-speech/">http://amberandchaos.com/blog/john-galts-atlas-shrugged-speech/ </a> This message was edited by Bob Impact on 2-13-07 @ 9:24 AM ayn rand has some interesting ideas, but she's also a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivist_movement" target="_blank">cult</a> leader.  don't forget that.

A.J.

02-13-2007, 05:57 AM

Gvac wrote: The pioneer spirit that founded this country has all but vanished.  Time was, people came to America so they could be left alone.  Now, they come with a laundry list of entitlements.  The citiziens that were born here are even worse, looking to government as mommy and daddy and not a necessary evil.    And the citizens that are born here see themselves as lacking any opportunity due to "obstacles".Everyone is a victim somehow...and they seek an easy way to get compensated for it.

TheMojoPin

02-13-2007, 07:31 AM

Notice how this thread isn't in the forum it should go in?That's like a mini-revolution right there.Subtle.Sneaky.Diabolical.

sailor

02-13-2007, 07:34 AM

TheMojoPin wrote: Notice how this thread isn't in the forum it should go in?That's like a mini-revolution right there.Subtle.Sneaky.Diabolical. we don't gotta listen to you no more!  <img src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />

Bob Impact

02-13-2007, 12:11 PM

sailor wrote: ayn rand has some interesting ideas, but she's also a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivist_movement" target="_blank">cult</a> leader. don't forget that. As an Objectivist (as opposed to a Randist), and a branded one at that (I have ego tattooed on my chest) I could not disagree more, I fail to see how a philosophy that is based upon individualism and rational selfishness could ever be confused with a cult.  Aside from that both Walker and Branden had an axe to grind with Rand.  Note the mess of colored boxes on the top of the article.  I no longer discuss my morality (this is pretty much exactly how far I'll go on a messageboard) so i'll end the discussion now, but i felt compelled to at least throw my two cents in.  I understand the thought behind it, but it falls apart very quickly on cross examination.

Fezticle98

02-13-2007, 12:16 PM

No. No it's not.

MadMatt

02-13-2007, 12:31 PM

I haven't read the whole thread yet (I'm at work and will have to catch up when I get home), but this subject is near and dear to my heart.  There also seem to be a lot of good arguements popping up because of this subjects - which is a good thing in my opinion.While I don't think a "Bang-Bang" revolution is called for, the US is sorely in need of a Political and Social revolution.  The 2 party system has become the bane of Democracy and the country is becoming socially stagnant waiting for someone else to create change.At the very least our nation needs a viable 3rd party, but a Proportional system would be better.  An overhall of the tax system to make it less regressive is needed, as well as a reallocation of funds to improve the societal infrastructure.  We should be shooting for a new "Golden Age" instead of  wallowing in mediocrity.

keithy_19

02-13-2007, 12:44 PM

This may have been stated before, but isn't it included in the consitution that the citizen can stand up and change the government if they they are doing the wrong things and not working in the best itnerest of the common man? The writers of the consitution were smart. They assumed that maybe one day America would become like Britain and how they treated America.

Crispy123

02-13-2007, 12:45 PM

MadMatt wrote: I haven't read the whole thread yet (I'm at work and will have to catch up when I get home), but this subject is near and dear to my heart. There also seem to be a lot of good arguements popping up because of this subjects - which is a good thing in my opinion.While I don't think a "Bang-Bang" revolution is called for, the US is sorely in need of a Political and Social revolution. The 2 party system has become the bane of Democracy and the country is becoming socially stagnant waiting for someone else to create change.At the very least our nation needs a viable 3rd party, but a Proportional system would be better. An overhall of the tax system to make it less regressive is needed, as well as a reallocation of funds to improve the societal infrastructure. We should be shooting for a new "Golden Age" instead of wallowing in mediocrity.I whole heartedly agree. If you look at older countries you see there are hundreds even thousands of years before huge changes are made in politics, society, religion, science, etc. That being said it seems like the time between these radical events has been compressed recently, leading some to hypothesise that change is coming. If you listen to the doom and gloom of Al Gore you will be depressed and a humanity hater, if you listen to Karl Rove you will beleive the rapture is right around the corner and hate humanity. I don't necessarily think the next radical change is going to happen in the US. I kind of agree with MrPink along the lines of a 1 gov NWO that may leave us in the dust.

sailor

02-13-2007, 12:57 PM

Bob Impact wrote: sailor wrote: ayn rand has some interesting ideas, but she's also a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivist_movement" target="_blank">cult</a> leader. don't forget that. As an Objectivist (as opposed to a Randist), and a branded one at that (I have ego tattooed on my chest) I could not disagree more, I fail to see how a philosophy that is based upon individualism and rational selfishness could ever be confused with a cult. Aside from that both Walker and Branden had an axe to grind with Rand. Note the mess of colored boxes on the top of the article. I no longer discuss my morality (this is pretty much exactly how far I'll go on a messageboard) so i'll end the discussion now, but i felt compelled to at least throw my two cents in. I understand the thought behind it, but it falls apart very quickly on cross examination. i don't want to argue beliefs here, but any belief system can be twisted into a cult, no matter what its underpinnings.  you choose to throw out walker and branden because of an "axe to grind with rand" i think that's not a compelling argument.  that's akin to "don't listen to them, we don't like them."  and the colored boxes are common when two groups strongly disagree with each other and are fighting for control of a page.  i don't know how the objectivist movement is now, but under rand it was very cultish.  even if you do throw out branden as rand's jilted former lover, walker is journalist who i do not see as biased and don't know where you're pulling that from.  also, never heard of a randist, what's that?

TheArchies

02-13-2007, 01:19 PM

I believe it was Jefferson who said that the tree of freedom grew on the blood of revolution. The Framers knew that at a certain point, the government would try and overstep it bounds, thus the second  amendment. The fact that the American public has handed certain rights over to the gov't for such reasons as safety, economics, among others just gave more power to politicians. look at what FDR did with the gold laws in the 1930's. Would have never happened 100 years earlier. In fact, the entire New Deal was nothing more than a power grab. Looking further back, as unpopular as it may be, the civil war was the Federal Government taking power from the states. The second revolution talk has been going on since the War of 1812. The New England States wanted to secede from the Union, citing "an unpopular President running an unpoplar war." Wow, the more things change.....

TheArchies

02-13-2007, 01:32 PM

One more thing. I love the board. You guys really get into interesting topics. I liked the thread about Iran and the war yesterday. I was reading last night and read this quote, which I found interesting. Kind of puts things in perspective. "I will not cry 'peace' so long as there is sin and wrong in the world,"  "Once lead this people into war, and they'll forget there ever was such a thing as tolerance. To fight you must be brutal and ruthless, and the spirit of ruthlessness brutality will enter into every fibre of our national life, infecting Congress, the courts, the policeman on the beat, the man in the street." Woodrow Wilson.  It lead me to an interesting question, over the last 100 years, which Presidents have presided over the killing of more civillians, military personel and refugee deaths than any other? Woodrow Wilson, FDR, and Lyndon Johnson. What do they have in common?

This message was edited by TheArchies on 2-13-07 @ 5:33 PM

narc

02-13-2007, 01:40 PM

keithy_19 wrote: This may have been stated before, but isn't it included in the consitution that the citizen can stand up and change the government if they they are doing the wrong things and not working in the best itnerest of the common man? The writers of the consitution were smart. They assumed that maybe one day America would become like Britain and how they treated America. No, not at all. There's nothing in the Constitution that says that. Jefferson made some statements like that, but he made it in the context of the fact that he thought we should be a nation of yeoman farmers, and that's never been true. Also, the huge problem with revolutions is that they aren't nice. They spin out of control. Almost nobody was saying this after the French Revolution was happening. In fact, it scared most of the Framers absolutely shitless. We've had a two party system for forever now, basically. It works for us. If there were more parties, they wouldn't necessarily be responsive to any of your needs, unless it was a party made up just of you.  And then you'd be a little lacking in the power department. Personally, I'm happy we only have had one constitution/system of government in 200 years as opposed to the French who have had 4 or 5 republics.

narc

02-13-2007, 01:42 PM

TheArchies wrote: One more thing. I love the board. You guys really get into interesting topics. I liked the thread about Iran and the war yesterday. I was reading last night and read this quote, which I found interesting. Kind of puts things in perspective. "I will not cry 'peace' so long as there is sin and wrong in the world," "Once lead this people into war, and they'll forget there ever was such a thing as tolerance. To fight you must be brutal and ruthless, and the spirit of ruthlessness brutality will enter into every fibre of our national life, infecting Congress, the courts, the policeman on the beat, the man in the street." Woodrow Wilson. It lead me to an interesting question, over the last 100 years, which Presidents have presided over the killing of more civillians, military personel and refugee deaths than any other? Woodrow Wilson, FDR, and Lyndon Johnson. What do they have in common? This message was edited by TheArchies on 2-13-07 @ 5:33 PMDon't forget to mention the fact that Woodrow Wilson was one of the most virulently racist presidents we've ever had. He HATED blacks.

Bob Impact

02-13-2007, 01:45 PM

sailor wrote: i don't want to argue beliefs here, but any belief system can be twisted into a cult, no matter what its underpinnings. you choose to throw out walker and branden because of an "axe to grind with rand" i think that's not a compelling argument. that's akin to "don't listen to them, we don't like them." and the colored boxes are common when two groups strongly disagree with each other and are fighting for control of a page. i don't know how the objectivist movement is now, but under rand it was very cultish. even if you do throw out branden as rand's jilted former lover, walker is journalist who i do not see as biased and don't know where you're pulling that from. also, never heard of a randist, what's that? Again, I have no desire to argue for or against my morality, and that is not the purpose of this thread. A Randist is someone who believes primarily in what Ayn Rand said, an Objectivist is someone who lives life according to Objectivist morals. 

This message was edited by Bob Impact on 2-13-07 @ 5:49 PM

Fat_Sunny

02-13-2007, 06:34 PM

One Practical Aspect Of Objectivism Has Stuck With Fat His Entire Life, And Has Helped Him To Be An Unbiased Person.  Roughly Stated, It Goes Like This: "As Long As There Is One (Black) Person In The World Who Is (Smarter) Than I, Then I Cannot Pre-Judge The Intelligence Of Any Individual Black Person".  (You Can substitute Asian Or Mexican Or Woman Or Anything Else For "Black" In That Statement, And You Can Substitute Morality Or Looks Or Anything Else For The Intelligence Part).When You Keep That Concept In Mind, You Never Pre-Judge An Individual Based On Their Race Or Sex Or Anything Else.  And The Dignity Of The Individual Is What It Is All About!

weekapaugjz

02-13-2007, 06:40 PM

Fat_Sunny wrote: One Practical Aspect Of Objectivism Has Stuck With Fat His Entire Life, And Has Helped Him To Be An Unbiased Person. Roughly Stated, It Goes Like This: "As Long As There Is One (Black) Person In The World Who Is (Smarter) Than I, Then I Cannot Pre-Judge The Intelligence Of Any Individual Black Person". (You Can substitute Asian Or Mexican Or Woman Or Anything Else For "Black" In That Statement, And You Can Substitute Morality Or Looks Or Anything Else For The Intelligence Part).When You Keep That Concept In Mind, You Never Pre-Judge An Individual Based On Their Race Or Sex Or Anything Else. And The Dignity Of The Individual Is What It Is All About! i have always felt the same way as well, but has never been able to state it that eloquently.

HBox

02-13-2007, 06:48 PM

The pioneer spirit that founded this country has all but vanished.  Time was, people came to America so they could be left alone.  Now, they come with a laundry list of entitlements.  The citiziens that were born here are even worse, looking to government as mommy and daddy and not a necessary evil.I'd just like to point out the 19th century lingo Gramps is throwing out here.

Gvac

02-13-2007, 06:52 PM

HBox wrote:  The pioneer spirit that founded this country has all but vanished. Time was, people came to America so they could be left alone. Now, they come with a laundry list of entitlements. The citiziens that were born here are even worse, looking to government as mommy and daddy and not a necessary evil. I'd just like to point out the 19th century lingo Gramps is throwing out here. Respect your elders you snot nosed little punk!And don't fear my wisdom.

SouthSideJohnny

02-13-2007, 07:14 PM

narc wrote:I can understand where Mr. Pink is coming from though: in Maryland it seems like every other person in some parts is either Guatemalan or Haitian. There are very few latin immigrants in Buffalo. Most of the latin community there is Puerto Ricans or Mexicans who have been there for awhile. But I don't think we should be turning immigrants away (being entirely a descendant of immigrants myself). If they work hard and go through the citizenship process, I could give a shit. Not enough of them are. But I think we should make the citizenship requirements easier and cut off all government aid for all illegals - no schools, no witholding money for any government purpose, no welfare, nada. They only get human rights. Then there'd be NO excuse for them to not become citizenship. I don't have any issue with legal immigration, just illegal immigration.  I live just north of Miami, and the Cuban immigrants helped make make Miami a great city.  The problem is the influx of illegal immigrants, especially in the last ten years.  If someone follows the rules, and wants to work and become part of our society - come on in.  The problem is that we are paying for the illegals' health care, schooling, etc. . . . With that, why would anyone want to do it the legal way?  Hell, I saw today that Bank of America has a credit card targeted to illegal immigrants!!!  I know the argument that we benefit from the illegals with lower labor costs resulting in lower cost products, but I just don't accept that 100%.  If the money earned here is being siphoned off to the immigrant's families in other countries, that hurts all of us. As for the assimilation issue, yes, every immigrant group preserved part of their heritage.  That's fine and commendable.  The problem is the hispanic immigrants are the only group to my knowledge that are not adopting the language.  That's a huge problem!!!  When the Cuban immigrants came to Miami, they largely adopted our language.  Don't get me wrong, there was ALOT of spanish spoken, but in almost every area of South Florida, English at least understood.  Now, that's totally changed.  My wife works in the health care field and has been denied jobs because she's not 100% bilingual.  That's bullshit!  She's more than conversant in spanish but not 100% bilingual.  And that's not Miami, that's Ft. Lauderdale.  Hell, I have been to the Subway franchise by my office (in Hollywood, FL - now notorious for the death of Anna Nicole Smith) where nobody in the entire shop can take an order in English.  What the hell is with that?  I know enough to order a sub in Spanish, but they can't take an  order in English?  In my opinion, a common language is one of the threads that holds a society together, and this refusal to speak English is going to be a significant factor in splitting apart our once great republic. Oh yeah, my hats off to everyone for some great posts in this thread.  There are some very insightful people here . . . I just don't know if I'm one of them.

SouthSideJohnny

02-13-2007, 07:23 PM

sr71blackbird wrote: The very fact that we can even have this discussion, without fear, is proof to me that this system works. It really was not all that long ago in other areas of the world when this disussion would have been been done in fearfull whispers in dark alleys. You just have to trust that people will demans changes from their leaders. But the thing is, the concepts that we all used to live by and used to all be taught at home, in school and in worship are not enforced on children as they used to. These kids grow up with no guidence and direction and when they mature, they have no idea about people who give a shit and why it is important. I also wanted to comment on blackbird's post.  I agree with the second half entirely but I'm not so sure about the first part.  I think the first few posts in this thread, whether or not made in jest, suppport my position.  It's great that we do have the freedom to post in this type of open environment, but at the same time, the thought that someone in the government might actually be monitoring communications for the word "revolution" is a very frightening prospect.  Paranoid? probably, but it does make me think about what I'm typing in this type of forum.