soldiers lead Iraqi in children "Fuck Iraq" chant

[OralForTheChef]

<p><a href="http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e3ea2fd7a6">http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e3ea2fd7a6</a></p>

[Doctor Z]

Oh Christ...

[Yerdaddy]

<p>Not a BIG deal, but that will make the rounds more in the Middle East than it will in the States, and it will be added to the mountain of insults. Next week we'll probably see a leaked video of Cheney leading a cabinet meeting in the same chant. Arabs will just shrug at that and say &quot;Eh. We know.&quot; Which will reflect that they at least still have less respect remaining for the Bush administration than they do American soldiers. </p><p>Problem is,&nbsp;having returned&nbsp;to Egypt after two years, I can see that, with Egyptians having watched the slow deteriation of Iraq over that time period, they have even less respect for me. Which means they have less respect for you. You guys have NO IDEA how much this war has hurt us. Has hurt you. Even I haven't been able to muster the words to describe it.</p><p>And it's not this video. This would barely phase them at this point. </p>

[A.J.]

I had the same problem in Saudi Arabia.&nbsp; It's tough being an apologist for this debacle in Iraq.

[Furtherman]

<strong>Yerdaddy</strong> wrote:<br /><p>You guys have NO IDEA how much this war has hurt us. Has hurt you. Even I haven't been able to muster the words to describe it.</p><p>Yea, that has bothered me.&nbsp; Mostly because that is an area I would love to visit.&nbsp; I would love nothing else to see the Pyramids, Valley Of The Kings and The Nile.&nbsp; Now I feel I couldn't go there without being very rich and very well protected.&nbsp; </p>

[Furtherman]

<strong>A.J.</strong> wrote:<br />I had the same problem in Saudi Arabia.&nbsp; It's tough being an apologist for this debacle in Iraq. <p>Probably a lot of &quot;Saudi guilt&quot;?&nbsp; After all, the 9/11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.&nbsp; And a long time ago, in an America far, far away, we went to war to take down their regime.&nbsp; Now we've only made it stronger.</p>

[led37zep]

Thats funny no matter how you look at it.

[UnknownPD]

It's not like they loved us before.

[angrymissy]

I'm embarassed for our country after watching that.

[led37zep]

<strong>angrymissy</strong> wrote:<br />I'm embarassed for our country after watching that.<p> Why? Its just guys blowing off some steam. They aren't harming anyone or anything by leading these kids in this chant. If you're gonna be embarassed at least pic something that we all agree makes America look bad...like the Baldwin brothers. </p>

<span class=post_edited>This message was edited by led37zep on 12-14-06 @ 11:37 AM</span>

[angrymissy]

<strong>led37zep</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>angrymissy</strong> wrote:<br />I'm embarassed for our country after watching that. <p>Why? Its just guys blowing off some steam. They aren't harming anyone or anything by leading these kids in this chant. If you're gonna be embarassed at least pic something that we all agree makes America look bad...like the Baldwin brothers. </p><span class="post_edited">This message was edited by led37zep on 12-14-06 @ 11:37 AM</span> <p>It makes us look like fucking idiots to the rest of the world, how can you not see that?&nbsp; What would you think it if a bunch of Iraqi's were here getting schoolchildren to chant &quot;FUCK THE USA&quot;?&nbsp; People would want their heads on a fucking platter.</p>

[led37zep]

<strong>angrymissy</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>led37zep</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>angrymissy</strong> wrote:<br />I'm embarassed for our country after watching that. <p>Why? Its just guys blowing off some steam. They aren't harming anyone or anything by leading these kids in this chant. If you're gonna be embarassed at least pic something that we all agree makes America look bad...like the Baldwin brothers. </p><span class="post_edited">This message was edited by led37zep on 12-14-06 @ 11:37 AM</span> <p>It makes us look like fucking idiots to the rest of the world, how can you not see that? What would you think it if a bunch of Iraqi's were here getting schoolchildren to chant &quot;FUCK THE USA&quot;? People would want their heads on a fucking platter.</p><p>&nbsp;Thats already being done on a daily basis in places like the west bank and Syria.&nbsp; (The rest of the world already thinks we're idiots but thats another discussion all together.</p><p>&nbsp;This video isn't near that bad but I could see some douche bags on CNN trying to make a big deal about it. </p>

[angelinad128]

We are already hated. This didn't help at all.

[A.J.]

<strong>led37zep</strong> wrote:<br /><p>Why? Its just guys blowing off some steam. </p><p>That's the same thinking behind the Abu Ghraib photos.</p><p>&nbsp;</p>

[led37zep]

<strong>A.J.</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>led37zep</strong> wrote:<br /><p>Why? Its just guys blowing off some steam. </p><p>That's the same thinking behind the Abu Ghraib photos.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;I think you can admit this isn't even close to the level of Abu Ghraib. </p>

[angrymissy]

<strong>led37zep</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>angrymissy</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>led37zep</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>angrymissy</strong> wrote:<br />I'm embarassed for our country after watching that. <p>Why? Its just guys blowing off some steam. They aren't harming anyone or anything by leading these kids in this chant. If you're gonna be embarassed at least pic something that we all agree makes America look bad...like the Baldwin brothers. </p><span class="post_edited">This message was edited by led37zep on 12-14-06 @ 11:37 AM</span> <p>It makes us look like fucking idiots to the rest of the world, how can you not see that? What would you think it if a bunch of Iraqi's were here getting schoolchildren to chant &quot;FUCK THE USA&quot;? People would want their heads on a fucking platter.</p><p>&nbsp;Thats already being done on a daily basis in places like the west bank and Syria.&nbsp; (The rest of the world already thinks we're idiots but thats another discussion all together.</p><p>&nbsp;This video isn't near that bad but I could see some douche bags on CNN trying to make a big deal about it. </p><p>Does it happen HERE?&nbsp; Have you been to the West Bank and/or Syria?&nbsp; We went in to &quot;liberate&quot; the Iraqis and now we have their children chanting &quot;Fuck Iraq&quot;.&nbsp; Do you see what I'm saying?&nbsp; </p>

[A.J.]

<p>No, but that's where it starts.&nbsp; WE think it's funny and it ends up coming to bite us back in the ass.</p><p>We should be earning the trust of those kids to grow up to make a better Iraq -- not to grow up hating the U.S. and blowing themselves up.</p>

[angrymissy]

<strong>A.J.</strong> wrote:<br /><p>No, but that's where it starts.&nbsp; WE think it's funny and it ends up coming to bite us back in the ass.</p><p><strong><font size="4">We should be earning the trust of those kids to grow up to make a better Iraq -- not to grow up hating the U.S. and blowing themselves up.</font></strong></p><p>What A.J. said.</p>

[johnniewalker]

<strong>led37zep</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>A.J.</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>led37zep</strong> wrote:<br /><p>Why? Its just guys blowing off some steam. </p><p>That's the same thinking behind the Abu Ghraib photos.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p> I think you can admit this isn't even close to the level of Abu Ghraib. </p><p>&nbsp;There is a huge difference,&nbsp; it makes me cringe...but I'm not going to blow up at every little thing and act like this is inducing the next suicide bomber.&nbsp; Most of these guys are just kids too. </p>

[led37zep]

<strong>angrymissy</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>led37zep</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>angrymissy</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>led37zep</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>angrymissy</strong> wrote:<br />I'm embarassed for our country after watching that. <p>Why? Its just guys blowing off some steam. They aren't harming anyone or anything by leading these kids in this chant. If you're gonna be embarassed at least pic something that we all agree makes America look bad...like the Baldwin brothers. </p><span class="post_edited">This message was edited by led37zep on 12-14-06 @ 11:37 AM</span> <p>It makes us look like fucking idiots to the rest of the world, how can you not see that? What would you think it if a bunch of Iraqi's were here getting schoolchildren to chant &quot;FUCK THE USA&quot;? People would want their heads on a fucking platter.</p><p> Thats already being done on a daily basis in places like the west bank and Syria. (The rest of the world already thinks we're idiots but thats another discussion all together.</p><p> This video isn't near that bad but I could see some douche bags on CNN trying to make a big deal about it. </p><p>Does it happen HERE? Have you been to the West Bank and/or Syria? We went in to &quot;liberate&quot; the Iraqis and now we have their children chanting &quot;Fuck Iraq&quot;. Do you see what I'm saying? </p><p>You're making a bigger deal out of this vid than needs to be..&nbsp; Is it good PR?&nbsp; No.&nbsp; Is it harming these kids?&nbsp; NO.&nbsp; These kids will not be effected in the long term by this video.&nbsp; What will have a MAJOR effect on them is the car bombings by the insurgents and the future path their government takes to secure their future. Thats what we should be focusing on.&nbsp; Not some video of them chanting words they don't understand.&nbsp;&nbsp; </p>

[angrymissy]

<strong>led37zep</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>angrymissy</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>led37zep</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>angrymissy</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>led37zep</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>angrymissy</strong> wrote:<br />I'm embarassed for our country after watching that. <p>Why? Its just guys blowing off some steam. They aren't harming anyone or anything by leading these kids in this chant. If you're gonna be embarassed at least pic something that we all agree makes America look bad...like the Baldwin brothers. </p><span class="post_edited">This message was edited by led37zep on 12-14-06 @ 11:37 AM</span> <p>It makes us look like fucking idiots to the rest of the world, how can you not see that? What would you think it if a bunch of Iraqi's were here getting schoolchildren to chant &quot;FUCK THE USA&quot;? People would want their heads on a fucking platter.</p><p>Thats already being done on a daily basis in places like the west bank and Syria. (The rest of the world already thinks we're idiots but thats another discussion all together.</p><p>This video isn't near that bad but I could see some douche bags on CNN trying to make a big deal about it. </p><p>Does it happen HERE? Have you been to the West Bank and/or Syria? We went in to &quot;liberate&quot; the Iraqis and now we have their children chanting &quot;Fuck Iraq&quot;. Do you see what I'm saying? </p><p>You're making a bigger deal out of this vid than needs to be..&nbsp; Is it good PR?&nbsp; No.&nbsp; Is it harming these kids?&nbsp; NO.&nbsp; These kids will not be effected in the long term by this video.&nbsp; What will have a MAJOR effect on them is the car bombings by the insurgents and the future path their government takes to secure their future. Thats what we should be focusing on.&nbsp; Not some video of them chanting words they don't understand.&nbsp;&nbsp; </p><p>It's harming our COUNTRY.</p>

[led37zep]

No its not.&nbsp; The only thing it could possibly do is give fuel to the people that already dislike the war.&nbsp;

[angrymissy]

<p>I really don't understand how anyone could think it was ok to do this.</p><p>I'm not trying to say it's on the level of Abu Ghraib, but it's embarassing.&nbsp; I, for one, don't want to be the asshole to the rest of the world.</p>

[led37zep]

<strong>angrymissy</strong> wrote:<br /><p>I really don't understand how anyone could think it was ok to do this.</p><p>I'm not trying to say it's on the level of Abu Ghraib, but it's embarassing. I, for one, don't want to be the asshole to the rest of the world.</p><p>&nbsp;I don't think its ok, I just don't think it should be made into a big deal.</p><p>Can we hug now and listen to the show?&nbsp; I hate it when Mommy and Daddy fight. </p>

[A.J.]

<strong>led37zep</strong> wrote:<br /><p>&nbsp;I don't think its ok, I just don't think it should be made into a big deal.</p><p>The point is that it is most likely to be made into a big deal by Muslim groups/insurgents/whatever who use crap like this to say &quot;See?&nbsp; The Americans aren't here to help Iraqis!&nbsp; They hate you!&quot;</p><p>Ironically, that is likely to make life even <em>more</em> unbearable for these very U.S. troops in Iraq who&nbsp;instigated this chant&nbsp;- either by negative press,&nbsp;or by more insurgent attacks.</p>

<span class=post_edited>This message was edited by A.J. on 12-14-06 @ 12:16 PM</span>

[Yerdaddy]

<strong>Furtherman</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>Yerdaddy</strong> wrote:<br /><p>You guys have NO IDEA how much this war has hurt us. Has hurt you. Even I haven't been able to muster the words to describe it.</p><p>Yea, that has bothered me.&nbsp; Mostly because that is an area I would love to visit.&nbsp; I would love nothing else to see the Pyramids, Valley Of The Kings and The Nile.&nbsp; Now I feel I couldn't go there without being very rich and very well protected.&nbsp; </p><p>If you come now as a tourist and do three weeks seeing Cairo and the pyramids and then going up and down the Nile you'll be fine. Seriously. It's safe. </p><p>The problem that caused me to post my first comment, (as I'll go into in a minute), has to do with the differences in the&nbsp;opinions of the Egyptians today vs. two years ago. But you still should keep in mind that I'm still safer here than I was in DC, (and in most American cities). In fact, I have Islam to thank for that fact, as well as the little-known fact that Arabs are actually rational human beings. As for the first reason, Islam states that guests are to be treated with respect, and this is a point that Muslims here place at a very high priority - above whatever selection in the Quran that contradicts that point. I've been safe for two years now BECAUSE most Muslims are good Muslims. As for the second, the majority of people here still differentiate between the policies of America and the people of America. (I should probably attribute some of that last principle to ignorance as well. See, most people here don't think we have democracy. Most of them know about the problems with the 2000 elections and believe that Bush stole the election&nbsp;- in the same way their governments steal elections. Then they just figure he stole 2004 as well. They don't really understand democracy because they never really had it. In the sense of my safety - and Furtherman's if he decides to come see the pyramids - their lack of democracy is a good thing because the American people get a pass. They act as though 51% of people didn't actually vote for Bush.)</p><p>So, in terms of your safety and my safety, it's still OK to come here. But do it quick!</p>

[Yerdaddy]

<p>Since it's something I've been meaning to write for a while, my reply will go in <a href="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/viewmessages.cfm/Forum/71/Topic/43171/currentpage/6/page/redirect.htm#bottom" target="_blank">Yerdaddy of Arabia.</a></p><p>But, then again I might as well dump it here too:</p><p>[To pre-empt of the argument that I'm making too big a deal out of this video I'll emphasize what I said in my first post: this video is trivial. It is a tiny sliver of information that will be seen by a few people and merely confirm what they already believe: that America is not in Iraq to &quot;liberate&quot; or &quot;democratize&quot; Iraq. It will be forgotten the next day when the newspapers will carry pictures of more dead Iraqis. The reason I'm about to go hog wild with my political mumbo-jumbo is that, in returning to Egypt after two years, I'm much more pessimistic about the future of America and the world.]</p><p>It's not like they loved us before.</p><p>We are already hated. This didn't help at all.</p><p>I'll use these two quotes to illustrate my point. They both say &quot;they hated us&quot;. Not too specific - the statements could be true or false depending on how you define &quot;they&quot; and &quot;us&quot;. The difference is that the second statement is followed by, essentially, &quot;this increases the hatred&quot;. A little bit, or alot - who cares? The act influences the opinion. That's the principle that the second statement includes and the first one doesn't, and that's the principle that we have ignored as a country, in what we've done in Iraq over the last three years. And we've fucked ourselves.</p><p>So I started this little trip in Cairo just over two years ago. Before I started the trip I told myself &quot;I gotta stop myself from talking politics or I'm going to get myself killed.&quot; Turns out I was clueless about just how little the risk of physical harm here for an American really was. Within 24 hours in Cairo I was sitting in tea shops talking about the war and American-Middle East relations all fucking night long pretty much. The guys I met, (I'll call them friends for the sake of simplicity - you're welcome), had a pretty good idea about what was going on, I thought. They didn't say we were there to kill Muslims, or even necessarily to hurt Iraq, but to get control of the oil. They figured we thought it would be easy and there wouldn't be too much bloodshed, but that we kept fucking up and things were getting worse. They aknowledged that Saddam was a bad guy. They were pissed that we did it because it's none of our business to be occupying other countries, especially Arab/Muslim ones - and one that's right next door. The conversation inevitably got to 9-11 and the Egyptian opinions were almost always exactly the same: Bin Laden is not a Muslim. In Islam it is stated very clearly that &quot;to kill one person is like to kill all of humanity.&quot; This statement was implored on me. Even when I was finishing the sentence with them it was always accompanied by &quot;please understand...&quot; They would say &quot;Bin Laden is shit! He is an animal!&quot; The sincerity was more like pleading. I could tell they had been aching for a chance to get the word to the people of America that they hated Bin Laden. That they were ashamed of what he had done. There was little or no criticism of us going into Afghanistan. It was rarely brought up - like a tacit acceptance that we HAD to go in there and get Bin Laden.</p><p>This is a generalization. There were subtle differences of opinion, and one or two opposing opinions. But, generally, this was the opinion of Egyptians and Jordanians two years ago. </p><p>Now it's different. Now it's, &quot;Bin Laden didn't do it. Bush did.&quot; One of the Egyptians that described this opinion is one that described the other one two years ago. But, nearly universally this time the Egyptians I've talked with the last two months belie

[DarkHippie]

Our Grandfathers would never have acted like this in WWII

[sailor]

<strong>DarkHippie</strong> wrote:<br />Our Grandfathers would never have acted like this in WWII<p>&nbsp;<font size="2">who says?&nbsp; there are crimes committed by all sides in every war.&nbsp; there is just better information getting this stuff to the people now-a-days.&nbsp; it doesn't mean it should be accepted, but don't act like our <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscari_massacre" target="_blank" title="biscari">grandfathers</a> never did anything wrong in the past. </font></p>

[Gvac]

<p>When you have a bunch of late teenaged/early 20's kids over in a foreign land thousands of miles from home and wondering if they're going to live through the day, is anyone really surprised that they'll have lapses in judgement?</p><p>I'm not excusing their actions, but college kids do much stupider shit and they're not worried about getting blown up at any minute. &nbsp;</p>

[Kevin]

Led i am sorry but your a fucking moron. OF COURSE THIS IS BAD! For everybody. Don't you get it? The main fucking cry of these terrorists when they recruit and brainwash young and impressionable Muslims is. The West (Mainly America) Hates us and wants us destroyed. So we have to unite and do it before they do it to us. This is like fucking bulletin board material for these fuck heads. And before you prove yourself more ignorant by saying &quot;I do not care what Muslims think&quot; Well you better fucking start caring. There are almost a billion Muslims in the world, Millions just in the US. If they are unhappy then the world is in the shitter, I mean do not change your life to to please everybody, but you gotta start putting it in your fucking head that a lot of the problems in the muslim world is caused by Americans and the West. It all started by the way they used Afghanistan to beat the Russians. After Russia left, America said Fuck Afghanistan we do not give a shit about them. So what they they are all in rubbles. Wouldnt that make you angry?? How about The whole Iraq thing?? Most people in the Muslim world wanted Sadam out. They want most of these corrupt leaders out. But once again America lied( or was incompitant) and were caught. Say someone Invaded your house to say they are helping you and later you figured out that they lied and had their own agenda. Would it make you a little fucking angry? Or how about the Way Isreal handled Lebanon? They went in there with out a fuckin plan and achieved nothing. Guess who rebuilt all the damage that Israel did in Lebanon?? HEZBOLA! And what ever detractors they had in lebanon became supporters because Hezbollah now looks like Hero's And that is fucked up. I d o not blame Israel for going in, BUT Have a fucking PLAN! America just sits there saying &quot; What did we do? They hate us because we are free and Christian. BULLSHIT! They hate us because of the shit we did. Look Bottom line. There are a ton of Muslims out there that hate terrorists and love America. But it is getting harder and harder for them to have a voice because of shit that goes on. Like what the Pope did. He had no reason to say any of that shit. Or the Muhammad cartoons. People knew well enough that Muhammad is a touchy subject there. LEAVE IT ALONE. IT DOES NOT FUCKING HELP. Its getting harder and harder for Muslims that try to be good in the world. It is getting harder because these terrorists do not even have to work hard to recruit anymore. They keep getting bulletin board material ever single day by America and the rest of the world just being a fucking cluster fuck. <span class="post_edited"></span>

<span class=post_edited>This message was edited by Kevin on 12-14-06 @ 11:08 PM</span>

[foodcourtdruide]

<strong>angrymissy</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>led37zep</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>angrymissy</strong> wrote:<br />I'm embarassed for our country after watching that. <p>Why? Its just guys blowing off some steam. They aren't harming anyone or anything by leading these kids in this chant. If you're gonna be embarassed at least pic something that we all agree makes America look bad...like the Baldwin brothers. </p><span class="post_edited">This message was edited by led37zep on 12-14-06 @ 11:37 AM</span> <p>It makes us look like fucking idiots to the rest of the world, how can you not see that?&nbsp; What would you think it if a bunch of Iraqi's were here getting schoolchildren to chant &quot;FUCK THE USA&quot;?&nbsp; People would want their heads on a fucking platter.</p><p>If an Arab person in the U.S. said &quot;FUCK THE USA&quot; the terror alert level would be raised.</p>

[foodcourtdruide]

<strong>Yerdaddy</strong> wrote:<br /><p>Since it's something I've been meaning to write for a while, my reply will go in <a href="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/viewmessages.cfm/Forum/71/Topic/43171/currentpage/6/page/redirect.htm#bottom" target="_blank">Yerdaddy of Arabia.</a></p><p>But, then again I might as well dump it here too:</p><p>[To pre-empt of the argument that I'm making too big a deal out of this video I'll emphasize what I said in my first post: this video is trivial. It is a tiny sliver of information that will be seen by a few people and merely confirm what they already believe: that America is not in Iraq to &quot;liberate&quot; or &quot;democratize&quot; Iraq. It will be forgotten the next day when the newspapers will carry pictures of more dead Iraqis. The reason I'm about to go hog wild with my political mumbo-jumbo is that, in returning to Egypt after two years, I'm much more pessimistic about the future of America and the world.]</p>[quote]It's not like they loved us before. We are already hated. This didn't help at all. <p>I'll use these two quotes to illustrate my point. They both say &quot;they hated us&quot;. Not too specific - the statements could be true or false depending on how you define &quot;they&quot; and &quot;us&quot;. The difference is that the second statement is followed by, essentially, &quot;this increases the hatred&quot;. A little bit, or alot - who cares? The act influences the opinion. That's the principle that the second statement includes and the first one doesn't, and that's the principle that we have ignored as a country, in what we've done in Iraq over the last three years. And we've fucked ourselves.</p><p>So I started this little trip in Cairo just over two years ago. Before I started the trip I told myself &quot;I gotta stop myself from talking politics or I'm going to get myself killed.&quot; Turns out I was clueless about just how little the risk of physical harm here for an American really was. Within 24 hours in Cairo I was sitting in tea shops talking about the war and American-Middle East relations all fucking night long pretty much. The guys I met, (I'll call them friends for the sake of simplicity - you're welcome), had a pretty good idea about what was going on, I thought. They didn't say we were there to kill Muslims, or even necessarily to hurt Iraq, but to get control of the oil. They figured we thought it would be easy and there wouldn't be too much bloodshed, but that we kept fucking up and things were getting worse. They aknowledged that Saddam was a bad guy. They were pissed that we did it because it's none of our business to be occupying other countries, especially Arab/Muslim ones - and one that's right next door. The conversation inevitably got to 9-11 and the Egyptian opinions were almost always exactly the same: Bin Laden is not a Muslim. In Islam it is stated very clearly that &quot;to kill one person is like to kill all of humanity.&quot; This statement was implored on me. Even when I was finishing the sentence with them it was always accompanied by &quot;please understand...&quot; They would say &quot;Bin Laden is shit! He is an animal!&quot; The sincerity was more like pleading. I could tell they had been aching for a chance to get the word to the people of America that they hated Bin Laden. That they were ashamed of what he had done. There was little or no criticism of us going into Afghanistan. It was rarely brought up - like a tacit acceptance that we HAD to go in there and get Bin Laden.</p><p>This is a generalization. There were subtle differences of opinion, and one or two opposing opinions. But, generally, this was the opinion of Egyptians and Jordanians two years ago. </p><p>Now it's different. Now it's, &quot;Bin Laden didn't do it. Bush did.&quot; One of the Egyptians that described this opinion is one that described the other one two years ago. But, n

[russellcrowe]

<strong>DarkHippie</strong> wrote:<br />Our Grandfathers would never have acted like this in WWII<p>&nbsp;You mean great-grandfathers right?</p>

[OralForTheChef]

Had they led the Iraqi kids in a &quot;Fuck Iran&quot; chant FOX News would have put it out as a positive piece.&nbsp; That goddamn letter Q.

[led37zep]

<strong>Kevin</strong> wrote:<br />Led i am sorry but your a fucking moron. OF COURSE THIS IS BAD! For everybody. Don't you get it? The main fucking cry of these terrorists when they recruit and brainwash young and impressionable Muslims is. The West (Mainly America) Hates us and wants us destroyed. So we have to unite and do it before they do it to us. This is like fucking bulletin board material for these fuck heads. And before you prove yourself more ignorant by saying &quot;I do not care what Muslims think&quot; Well you better fucking start caring. There are almost a billion Muslims in the world, Millions just in the US. If they are unhappy then the world is in the shitter, I mean do not change your life to to please everybody, but you gotta start putting it in your fucking head that a lot of the problems in the muslim world is caused by Americans and the West. It all started by the way they used Afghanistan to beat the Russians. After Russia left, America said Fuck Afghanistan we do not give a shit about them. So what they they are all in rubbles. Wouldnt that make you angry?? How about The whole Iraq thing?? Most people in the Muslim world wanted Sadam out. They want most of these corrupt leaders out. But once again America lied( or was incompitant) and were caught. Say someone Invaded your house to say they are helping you and later you figured out that they lied and had their own agenda. Would it make you a little fucking angry? Or how about the Way Isreal handled Lebanon? They went in there with out a fuckin plan and achieved nothing. Guess who rebuilt all the damage that Israel did in Lebanon?? HEZBOLA! And what ever detractors they had in lebanon became supporters because Hezbollah now looks like Hero's And that is fucked up. I d o not blame Israel for going in, BUT Have a fucking PLAN! America just sits there saying &quot; What did we do? They hate us because we are free and Christian. BULLSHIT! They hate us because of the shit we did. Look Bottom line. There are a ton of Muslims out there that hate terrorists and love America. But it is getting harder and harder for them to have a voice because of shit that goes on. Like what the Pope did. He had no reason to say any of that shit. Or the Muhammad cartoons. People knew well enough that Muhammad is a touchy subject there. LEAVE IT ALONE. IT DOES NOT FUCKING HELP. Its getting harder and harder for Muslims that try to be good in the world. It is getting harder because these terrorists do not even have to work hard to recruit anymore. They keep getting bulletin board material ever single day by America and the rest of the world just being a fucking cluster fuck. <span class="post_edited"></span> <span class="post_edited">This message was edited by Kevin on 12-14-06 @ 11:08 PM</span><p>&nbsp;First off I want to make my position clear.&nbsp; The actions of these men is not something I condone, I don't think this should be something we encourage our military to do (obviously).&nbsp; Hopefully thats clear enough.&nbsp; My ENTIRE point was this action isn't a big deal in the bigger landscape of the war.&nbsp; It was a few guys blowing off steam who aren't sure if they will live to see tomorrow let alone next week.&nbsp; This isn't any form of torture like Abu Ghraib, its not even close enough to compare, its just some guys having fun at the expense of little kids, kids who don't know what they are saying. (I'm walking a very fine line...I know that, so I'm trying to be clear).&nbsp; Does my stance make sense even if you don't agree?&nbsp; Its like giving someone a traffic ticket during a riot.&nbsp; There is a bigger issue at hand that we should be focusing on. &nbsp;&nbsp;</p><p>Your post hits so many different points of the overall muslim vs the west issue that i think we're getting off base.&nbsp; All I'm trying to say is that there are MUCH bigger issues at play then 3 guys getting a group of kids to chant &quot;fuck iraq&quot;.&nbsp; Is it sm

[Kevin]

<p>&nbsp;</p><p><strong>led37zep</strong> wrote:</p><br /> <p>&nbsp;</p><p>I 100% disagree with you on your comments about the Pope and the cartoon, but lets just stay on this one. </p><p>__________________________________________________ _______________________________________________</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Why?? Why start shit out of no where? And the Muhammad thing is totally ludicrous. What does he have to with anything? Its like Muslims saying. Hey Hitler and Nazi's believed in Jesus, and said lets kill everyone that not pure(White/Christian) they should die, Why don't we make a cartoon of Jesus in a Nazi uni saying Zeke Hille. Or them saying hey Cath priests did all that kid touching, so why don't we put a cartoon of Jesus in a priest uni in front of bent over naked boy??? Or Jesus as a KKK member or skin head that has as much to Jesus that terrorists have to do with Muhammad. If you read the Koran, Muhammad preached always attack those and those who attacked you. No where does it say kill innocent people. And the only he did people is when they broke treaties. Its just stupid. Its ignorance that kills everything.</p> <span class="post_edited"></span>

<span class=post_edited>This message was edited by Kevin on 12-15-06 @ 2:20 AM</span>

[sailor]

<strong>Kevin</strong> wrote:<br /><p>&nbsp;</p><p><strong>led37zep</strong> wrote:</p><br /> <p>&nbsp;</p><p>I 100% disagree with you on your comments about the Pope and the cartoon, but lets just stay on this one. </p><p>__________________________________________________ _______________________________________________</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Why?? Why start shit out of no where? And the Muhammad thing is totally ludicrous. What does he have to with anything? Its like Muslims saying. Hey Hitler and Nazi's believed in Jesus, and said lets kill everyone that not pure(White/Christian) they should die, Why don't we make a cartoon of Jesus in a Nazi uni saying Zeke Hille. Or them saying hey Cath priests did all that kid touching, so why don't we put a cartoon of Jesus in a priest uni in front of bent over naked boy??? Or Jesus as a KKK member or skin head that has as much to Jesus that terrorists have to do with Muhammad. If you read the Koran, Muhammad preached always attack those and those who attacked you. No where does it say kill innocent people. And the only he did people is when they broke treaties. Its just stupid. Its ignorance that kills everything.</p> <span class="post_edited"></span> <span class="post_edited">This message was edited by Kevin on 12-15-06 @ 2:20 AM</span><p>&nbsp;<font size="2">stop being an apologist for islam and for treating them like infants at the same time.&nbsp; people DID make catholic priest jokes all the time.&nbsp; no one burnt any buildings down over them.<br /></font></p>

[Yerdaddy]

<p><span><font face="Times New Roman"><font size="2">Again, this video is insignificant. Yes, it's <em>one more thing.</em> One more insult. But it's nothing compared to what else has happened. In fact, I couldn't tell what they were saying at first, so I'm sure most Muslims won't either. Except maybe the seven to ten million American Muslims who might see it. When people said Abu Ghraib was funny &ndash; which they did &ndash; I got my tit in a wringer and went after them. Which we should. This just doesn't even merit a board fight. If we were winning the war I wouldn't even have a problem saying it was funny.&nbsp;</font></font></span><span><font face="Times New Roman" size="2">&nbsp;</font></span></p><p><span></span><span><font face="Times New Roman"><font size="2">And I 50% disagree with Kevin on the cartoon controversy and the Pope. The Danish newspaper and the Pope were stupid for deliberately insulting Islam. In terms of the cartoons, western newspapers did a shit job of defending the principles of free speech. All the editorials I read that were supposed to be aimed at making the free speech arguments for the Muslim world distorted the issue and hurting their cause. Not one of them that I found acknowledged that the cartoons were deliberately offensive. They all, if they addressed that issue at all, said they were &quot;mildly offensive&quot; or &quot;indirectly offensive&quot; or said not offensive at all. Then they reprinted the cartoons, repeating the offense. They missed the whole point that free speech comes with responsibility. They missed the point that the point of free speech is to facilitate the truth however uncomfortable. And so the point was lost and the cause of free speech in the Muslim world was set back&hellip; who knows how far?</font></font></span><span><font face="Times New Roman" size="2">&nbsp;</font></span><span><font face="Times New Roman"><font size="2">But Muslims also overreacted. They, by-and-large, demonstrated almost universal bigotry. Sure, the violence was isolated incidences by violent prick in obscure parts of the Muslim world. And, naturally the news media ran the video ad-naseum, giving the right-wingers across the west the opportunity to point and yell &quot;See! They're animals!&quot; But across the Muslim world ordinary Muslims were condemning Denmark as a whole, boycotting all Danish goods, and, in Yemen, some were going around asking foreigners if they were Danish. (Now I had an Australian friend who said &quot;yes&quot; every time and when he did the person would think for a second and say &quot;Well, you're here, so you're OK.&quot; I was only asked once by some punk who wanted to impress his friends. I stopped and said &quot;Fuck you.&quot; Then I gave him a chance to put up or shut up and then kept walking. Fact is, these people are generally not violent towards westerners. Towards each other &ndash; that's a different story.) But the Muslim world demonstrated it's inability to differentiate between an obscure newspaper in a country that, really, few of them could find on a map, and that country as a whole. And who did they hurt in the end? Themselves. And a couple of Danish companies that had decided a long time ago to sell products in the Middle East. Biggest one was a dairy company that sold the best butter in most supermarkets and tiny shops across the ME. All these products got pulled off the shelves and out of the shops. I was at my friend's shop in Yemen the day he pulled them and put them in a box, (he had no choice &ndash; it's a culture of imposing the collective will on each other). Guys were coming up and asking for butter. He'd put that nasty French shit on the counter and the guy would get all bent out of shape. &quot;What's this?! Gimme the good stuff! The stuff I always get!&quot; Fuad would say &quot;It's Danish.&quot; The guy would stand there and stare and ponder the implications of his dilemma. He didn't want this French crap. It's really awful. But&hellip; He had no choice.

[angrymissy]

<strong>russellcrowe</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>DarkHippie</strong> wrote:<br />Our Grandfathers would never have acted like this in WWII <p>&nbsp;You mean great-grandfathers right?</p><p>No.&nbsp; I'm 27 and my Grandfather served in WWII.</p>

[ShelleBink]

<strong>angrymissy</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>russellcrowe</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>DarkHippie</strong> wrote:<br />Our Grandfathers would never have acted like this in WWII <p> You mean great-grandfathers right?</p><p>No. I'm 27 and my Grandfather served in WWII.</p><p>&nbsp;I'm 22 and ditto about grampa.</p>

[Yerdaddy]

<strong>ShelleBink</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>angrymissy</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>russellcrowe</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>DarkHippie</strong> wrote:<br />Our Grandfathers would never have acted like this in WWII <p>You mean great-grandfathers right?</p><p>No. I'm 27 and my Grandfather served in WWII.</p><p>&nbsp;I'm 22 and ditto about grampa.</p><p>If we're talking average age of the board members don't forget we gotta include Reeshy and his son <em>would</em> have fought in WWII if it weren't for the dress he wore to the army physical!</p><p>Too soon?</p><p>He borrowed it from his old man!</p>