Pit Bull: Nature or Nurture?

[Judge Smails]

<p>Here's a classic story illustrating a perfect example of the age-old Fez Whatley debate.&nbsp; On the one hand, the owners are obviously a pair of &quot;winners&quot;.&nbsp; On the other hand, ya gotta admit that this is&nbsp;some pretty extreme behavior for a puppy:</p><p><a href="http://www.southflorida.com/news/sns-ap-babys-toes%2C0%2C6345455.story?coll=sfla-news-fringe"><strong><font size="4">Puppy Gnawed Off Baby's Toes</font></strong><br /><br /></a>Police said the parents were sleeping on a mattress in the living room of their residence and the month-old girl was in an infant seat beside them when the puppy began chewing on their baby's toes.<br /><br />Mary Shannon Hansche, 22, and Christopher Wayne Hansche, 26, told police they woke up to the sound of the baby crying, found her mangled foot and took her to the hospital about 8:30 a.m. Sunday.</p>

[Fez4PrezN2008]

My wife and I have had this debate several times. I say it's just in their blood and they are dangerious animals in general and she takes the side of the owners. You can be a bad owner to a goldfish but its not going to gnaw off a baby's toes.

[lintpit]

<font face="comic sans ms,sand" size="2">Sounds like a puppy being a puppy. I had a dog rip a whole room of carpeting up when it was a puppy. Doesn't matter which breed. Pup shouldn't be that close to&nbsp; a baby any how. Could have scratched out an eye or done any number of things. Definitely a NATURAL accident.</font>

<span class=post_edited>This message was edited by lintpit on 12-12-06 @ 7:51 PM</span>

[torker]

Now I'm starvin'.

[SatCam]

Police said the parents were sleeping on a mattress in the living room of their residence

http://is2.okcupid.com/users/134/932/13593203035154684045/mt1126707696.jpg

Billy Bob! Our puppy done eated our baby's feet fingers!

[lintpit]

<strong>SatCam</strong> wrote:<br />Police said the parents were sleeping on a mattress in the living room of their residence <img src="http://is2.okcupid.com/users/134/932/13593203035154684045/mt1126707696.jpg" border="0" width="150" height="200" /> Billy Bob! Our puppy done eated our baby's feet fingers! <p>He hehe Ha haha. Very funny. <img src="/messageboard/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/lol.gif" border="0" width="20" height="20" /></p>

[johnniewalker]

Puppy gnawing off baby toes, I don't really care, that is still adorable!&nbsp;

[Bob Impact]

<p>Nuture.</p><p>&nbsp;I rehabbed pitbulls for several years with a local shelter, and they are the ONLY dog breed I have ever seen that can take the brutality they do and recover enough to be good again.&nbsp;&nbsp; We had a three page application for pits because so many assholes and rubes want to own them.&nbsp; </p>

[jetdog]

<p>Nature or Nurture?</p><p>Both!&nbsp; It's not an either/or thing.&nbsp; Pits can be the great, gentle dogs, but you have to be a responsible owner.&nbsp; Ol'goofy to the left there is a full blooded German Shepard.&nbsp; He was the sweetest, most gentle dog you would have ever me, never growled or beared his teeth to me or any of my friends in his entire life, even if we were playing rough.&nbsp; However one day a girl scout came to the door selling her stupid cookies, I opened the door with Jet standing behind me just being curious, as soon as she saw him she ran&nbsp; away screaming. This triggered an instinctual chase response in him and he went after her and nipped her heels.&nbsp; My fault entirely (even if she was a sissy little bitch).&nbsp; <font size="2">It's in them</font>.&nbsp; A day later I brought him over to her house to apologize and he was his usual laid back dooffisy self, he let her pet him and rolled over so she could scratch his belly.&nbsp; </p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>....So what were we talking about again?</p><p>oh yeah, both dammit!&nbsp;</p>

[torker]

<strong>lintpit</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>SatCam</strong> wrote:<br />Police said the parents were sleeping on a mattress in the living room of their residence <img src="http://is2.okcupid.com/users/134/932/13593203035154684045/mt1126707696.jpg" border="0" width="150" height="200" /> Billy Bob! Our puppy done eated our baby's feet fingers! <p>He hehe Ha haha. Very funny. <img src="/messageboard/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/lol.gif" border="0" width="20" height="20" /></p><p>indeed</p>

[lintpit]

Of all the dogs that you rehabbed which were you most afraid to release? Is there a breed which you would not own even if you got it as a puppy? {Directed to Bob Impact.}

<span class=post_edited>This message was edited by lintpit on 12-12-06 @ 8:07 PM</span>

[Fez4PrezN2008]

Maybe it was <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkQySn4I-CE">this</a>...

[Bob Impact]

<strong>lintpit</strong> wrote:<br />Of all the dogs that you rehabbed which were you most afraid to release? Is there a breed which you would not own even if you got it as a puppy? {Directed to Bob Impact.} <span class="post_edited">This message was edited by lintpit on 12-12-06 @ 8:07 PM</span><p>&nbsp;I mostly dealt with pits, but I never really found an adult Lab I liked, not because they're mean, but because they're as dumb as a pit without the loyalty.&nbsp; I wouldn't be afraid to own any breed, but I would most likely NOT get an Australian Wolf Hound, we had three come in and all three were assholes. </p>

[Ritalin]

<strong>SatCam</strong> wrote:<br />Police said the parents were sleeping on a mattress in the living room of their residence <img src="http://is2.okcupid.com/users/134/932/13593203035154684045/mt1126707696.jpg" border="0" /> Billy Bob! Our puppy done eated our baby's feet fingers!<p>&nbsp;<img src="http://timothykolk.com/rf/flamemullet.jpg" border="0" /></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Bitch, can't you see I'm busy!<br /> </p>

[Uncle Smokey]

<p>Without going into some important distinctions about what makes up the &quot;breed&quot; i.e. American Staffordshire Terriers, American Pit Bull Terriers, and other wide jawed short coated terriers with all kinds of mixed blood, the short answer is its both, nature and nurture.&nbsp; </p><p>The breed is descended from bulldogs who were selectively bred for their ability and desire to &quot;bait&quot; bears and bulls, meaning to essentially jump into their faces and clamp their jaws down on them till they bled out.&nbsp;&nbsp; When baiting went out of favor, bulldogs were bred with more mobile black and tan terriers and selectively bred to fight each other.&nbsp; So what persists in the breed today are dogs who are attitudinally inclined to fight other dogs without alot of coaxing.</p><p>Does this mean the dogs are untrainable or impossible to keep? Absolutely not.&nbsp; They can be incredibly sweet, loyal, friendly pets.&nbsp; My brother's girlfriend has one and it's a total mush.&nbsp; But the key is really smart &quot;dog parenting&quot;, a ton of socialization with other puppies early on, and close monitoring so you're sure the training is effective.&nbsp; </p><p>Most of the problems these dogs are scapegoated for&nbsp;are &nbsp;a result of&nbsp;the assholes who think owning one gives them three extra inches of dick.&nbsp; If you have someone keeping the dog to prove what a badass he is, or using the dog essentially as a means of self defense or as an extortion tool, then yeah, its gonna oblige you and act violently as all hell.&nbsp; All those generations of breeding for violence just need a little coaxing to come out.&nbsp;&nbsp; But if you're careful and recognize that you've accepted responsiblity for a very powerful animal who needs significant socialization,&nbsp;attention and training, then in all likelihood you have a wonderful pet.&nbsp; </p>

[lleeder]

<p>Why the baby toes, everyone knows the fontanelle is the sweetest part?</p><p><img src="http://www.farmasalute.it/images/fontanelle.gif" border="0" width="200" height="196" /></p><p>&nbsp;</p>

<span class=post_edited>This message was edited by lleeder on 12-12-06 @ 8:32 PM</span>

[Bob Impact]

<strong>Uncle Smokey</strong> wrote:<br /><p>Without going into some important distinctions about what makes up the &quot;breed&quot; i.e. American Staffordshire Terriers, American Pit Bull Terriers, and other wide jawed short coated terriers with all kinds of mixed blood, the short answer is its both, nature and nurture. </p><p>The breed is descended from bulldogs who were selectively bred for their ability and desire to &quot;bait&quot; bears and bulls, meaning to essentially jump into their faces and clamp their jaws down on them till they bled out. When baiting went out of favor, bulldogs were bred with more mobile black and tan terriers and selectively bred to fight each other. So what persists in the breed today are dogs who are attitudinally inclined to fight other dogs without alot of coaxing.</p><p>Does this mean the dogs are untrainable or impossible to keep? Absolutely not. They can be incredibly sweet, loyal, friendly pets. My brother's girlfriend has one and it's a total mush. But the key is really smart &quot;dog parenting&quot;, a ton of socialization with other puppies early on, and close monitoring so you're sure the training is effective. </p><p>Most of the problems these dogs are scapegoated for are a result of the assholes who think owning one gives them three extra inches of dick. If you have someone keeping the dog to prove what a badass he is, or using the dog essentially as a means of self defense or as an extortion tool, then yeah, its gonna oblige you and act violently as all hell. All those generations of breeding for violence just need a little coaxing to come out. But if you're careful and recognize that you've accepted responsiblity for a very powerful animal who needs significant socialization, attention and training, then in all likelihood you have a wonderful pet. </p><p>&nbsp;To add, the modern Stafforshire Terrier and to some extent the modern American Bull were bred as companions for children and families, essentially because of their loyalty and dedication to whomever they consider the top dog.</p><p>&nbsp;To those who will certainly come and bash pits, watch this (I know it's been posted before, but it's pertinent):</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>NSFWish&nbsp;</p><p><a href="http://gprime.net/flash.php/thepitbullproblem">http://gprime.net/flash.php/thepitbullproblem</a></p>

[Fez4PrezN2008]

Watched the video and while I am&nbsp;very sympathetic to the animals that are abused, I would still not hesitate to put a cap in one that was after me...

[Crazy Jen]

NATURE!!!!

[Bob Impact]

<strong>Crazy Jen</strong> wrote:<br />NATURE!!!!<p>&nbsp;Very compelling arguement Jen.</p><p>I've always said the same Fez4Prez, I'll do all I can to save a dog, any breed, but if ones coming for me or a kid, i'll drop that son of a bitch. </p>

[suggums]

in advance, ill go with anything bulldog cakes says

[Gvac]

<p><img src="http://militarysurplusstore.com/catalog/kill-em-all-t-shirt.jpg" border="0" /></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p>

[Uncle Smokey]

<strong>Bob Impact</strong> wrote: <p>&nbsp;To add, the modern Stafforshire Terrier and to some extent the modern American Bull were bred as companions for children and families, essentially because of their loyalty and dedication to whomever they consider the top dog.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Yeah, I think they were actually colloquially referred to as &quot;nursemaid dogs&quot; because they were so good at protecting and tending to children.&nbsp; Another breed with a sometimes rough rep which was used forever as a babysitter is the Akita.</p>

[JamMaster]

<p>To paraphrase Jimmy the Greek... &quot;They were bred that way&quot;</p><p>Umm...Can I ring the inappropriate bell on myself?</p>

[A.J.]

<p><strong><font size="1">Pit Bull: Nature or Nurture?</font></strong></p><p>Care to make a wager?</p><p><img src="http://www.movieactors.com/freezes1/TradingPlaces23.jpeg" border="0" width="266" height="150" /></p><p><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana">Teresa Miller, who sold the puppy to the Hansches, was skeptical the dog did it. &quot;He didn't chew on anything while he was with me. Out of all of them (in the litter), he was the least chewy.&quot;</span></p><p>I'd hate to see the MOST chewy.</p>

[cupcakelove]

It really sucks to see people blaming this on the dog instead of the incompetent parents.&nbsp; I used to volunteer with a local animal rescue group that found homes for dogs.&nbsp; Everyone agreed the pitbull puppies were the friendliest and most fun.&nbsp; My Mom even adopted one 7 years ago.&nbsp; The only thing dangerous he does is occasionaly try to jump up and lick your face.&nbsp; His head is super hard and sometimes he'll give you a nice headbutt.

[TheMojoPin]

<p>This is what you get when you bring filthy, savage animals into the house.</p><p>And I'm saying this about ALL pets, not just pitbulls.&nbsp; People with pets, your houses are disgusting.&nbsp; People are bad enough to clean around...bring a dumb animal into the mix and you're not even trying.</p>

<span class=post_edited>This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 12-13-06 @ 10:25 AM</span>

[A.J.]

The only animals allowed into my house are those that are going to be eaten.

[TheMojoPin]

<strong>A.J.</strong> wrote:<br />The only animals allowed into my house are those that are going to be eaten. <p>You're so pretty.</p>

[angelinad128]

Nuture for sure.&nbsp; I know plenty of ppl with pit bulls and they were raised for lack of a better word &quot;normal&quot;&nbsp; They are great dogs!&nbsp; Very friendly and loving.

[TooCute]

Nurture.


There's an old thread about this floating around somewhere.

[FUNKMAN]

<p>one thing i've learned is 'talking pitbulls' is almost like 'talking politics' or 'talking religion'. </p><p>i always stick with the theory that &quot;yes there are many dogs that bite humans and other animals such as dogs and cats but i'm pretty sure statistics will show that pitbulls are&nbsp;the leader in deaths to humans and other cats and dogs'</p><p>&nbsp;</p>

[Uncle Smokey]

<p>I don't know if you can quantify animal on animal deaths accurately, but as far as human fatalities caused by dog bites, rottweilers tend to cause the plurality of deaths.&nbsp; But keep in mind, the numbers are infinitesimal...in the U.S. you're talking about fewer than 20 human deaths a year caused by dog bites in a country of millions of dogs.&nbsp; </p><p>The threat is way overblown, and when a bad bite happens it can almost always be traced to people unwilling or unable to properly train and handle their animals.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You have to keep in mind that these animals, even the most putatively &quot;vicious&quot; of them who have been bred to hunt or bait or fight one another , have also&nbsp;been selectively bred for countless generations to live in harmony with humans.&nbsp; </p>

[FUNKMAN]

<p>i am also influenced by my own life experiences and the experience of friends and family. my dad seen on two separate occassions a pitbull killing a cat. of the nearly dozen stories of friends and family's experiencing an attack either on themselves or their pet it has been a pitbull. All the stories i have read in the papers over the years where a child or adult was killed the majority of the dogs are pitbulls.</p><p>and how many incidents never make the paper?</p><p>sure there are other dogs that can be vicious but there are few others that have the power(physically and mentally) to kill like a pitbull.</p><p>for anyone that loses a child or has their child permanently disfigured then it's one too much. i just feel that there are so many breeds of dog to own so use pitbulls for law enforcement or other purposes but not in the general public.&nbsp;</p>

[Bob Impact]

Again, i've seen Labs that mauled children, I've seen Irish Setters do the same, don't forget that you hear about pitbull attacks at a MUCH higher rate than anything else.&nbsp; Anyone advocating a ban on pits must also then advocate a ban on all dogs to cover their bases.

[TheMojoPin]

<strong>Bob Impact</strong> wrote:<br />Again, i've seen Labs that mauled children, I've seen Irish Setters do the same, don't forget that you hear about pitbull attacks at a MUCH higher rate than anything else.&nbsp; Anyone advocating a ban on pits must also then advocate a ban on all dogs to cover their bases. <p>Where do I sign up?&nbsp; Can we pave the oceans next?&nbsp; Anything that keeps animals in their place is OK by me.&nbsp; I don't trust them at all.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Relax, I'm not some kind of monster...we'd fill the newly improved oceans back up with pool water.</p>

[Bob Impact]

<strong>TheMojoPin</strong> wrote:<br /><strong>Bob Impact</strong> wrote:<br />Again, i've seen Labs that mauled children, I've seen Irish Setters do the same, don't forget that you hear about pitbull attacks at a MUCH higher rate than anything else. Anyone advocating a ban on pits must also then advocate a ban on all dogs to cover their bases. <p>Where do I sign up? Can we pave the oceans next? Anything that keeps animals in their place is OK by me. I don't trust them at all.</p><p>&nbsp;MONSTER!</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Relax, I'm not some kind of monster...we'd fill the newly improved oceans back up with pool water.&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;Oh, OK then. </p>

[Crispy123]

Will there be pitbulls in the pool?

[Bob Impact]

No, but there will be sandwiches and pizza.

[Crispy123]

Tell Donna to bounce, Im in!

[Bob Impact]

<br /><strong>CPW3</strong> wrote:<br />Tell Donna to bounce, Im in!<p>&nbsp;<img src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/lol.gif" border="0" /></p>