A hypothetical moral question [Archive]

Judge Smails

03-23-2006, 10:21 PM

Somebody asked me this stupid question today and I was just interested in geting other people's opinions.Lets say aliens come down to Earth and you are chosen to speak for the entire human race.  You need to make a decision (either way) on your own without any input from anyone else.  The aliens offer to give us the cures for every known disease. I guess people would still die of old age but no one dies young or suffers in any way.  They will also cure hunger, polution, poverty, end war and murder and crime and any other strife - basically they'll give us a Garden of Eden to live in.  The only thing that they ask in return is that they will come back every 100 years and we have to give them 5 million people, chosen at random from the world's population, to take back to their planet and do lord knows what with.  Would you agree to it?I said that I would agree to it in a heartbeat and people acted like I was worse than Hitler.  Personally, I don't see it.  I'm willing to sacrifice 5 million people every hundred years if we could live in a perfect world.  What's your opinion? - We'd like to know.

HBox

03-23-2006, 10:25 PM

In a heartbeat.

PapaBear

03-23-2006, 10:31 PM

I think the majority of people would be willing to risk being one of the random 5 million, so I say yes. By the way... no one would die of old age. All disease is eliminated so there would be nothing to kill old people.

monsterone

03-23-2006, 10:38 PM

not that i'm much of a puritan, but i always saw some truth in the fact that we are all pre-determined, essentially to sin.  given that, even if we were given the truths of the universe, we would sill fuck it up.  the human condition holds us back much more than any disease.it's not like we wouldn't fight, murder, and act anyway different they we already do.  death is as much any part of life, and if you look at what we have already done through extending the life expectancy, you'll find mostly neglected, lonely, and affraid individuals awaiting their demise.

Snoogans

03-23-2006, 10:50 PM

Where do I sign?

Coach

03-24-2006, 12:01 AM

Well in an answer...yes let them take tham...but isn't this question from the show "the Twilight Zone or the "outer limits"????

mendyweiss

03-24-2006, 03:27 AM

Yes I would, but why do they have to stick that thing up your butt?

Sheeplovr

03-24-2006, 04:01 AM

obviously the onyl reason they want ot cure us all of diesae is to
make us cattle earth woudl become a farm and they could always threaten
us afterwards with more disease since we will have no immunitey anymore
they would have compleat control of us pluss 100 years our time or theires its a trick and i know it your with Xeno you bastard only the scientologist can save us now !umm anyways it's
a trick why would aleins spend resorce and time they wouldnt even ask
they would pretend to ask and after a while say you suckers your gonebut it doesnt matter cause once they reach the planet we are done forwhy wouldnt they want to take us over its what we would do if we space traveled  Im starting an revultion right now whos with me to stop Judge_smails and his alien over lords

mikeyboy

03-24-2006, 05:06 AM

I think I figured this one out -- the aliens making the offer are from an alien company selling "organic" humans to alien restaurants.  This way they can insure that the humans they sell are disease free and relatively pampered (they don't have to deal with the stresses of poverty, pollution, etc.).  Also, the 5 million that they take every 100 years are given up voluntarily, so there's no risk of battle scars -- I mean, you can't sell sauteed human at a high end alien bistro if it's missing a leg.  I knew the organic food companies were evil.

Tall_James

03-24-2006, 05:14 AM

Only if they take the coloreds.                                 Joking.  Just Joking.  Jeez.

EliSnow

03-24-2006, 05:17 AM

PapaBear wrote: By the way... no one would die of old age. All disease is eliminated so there would be nothing to kill old people. Old people don't just die of disease.  They can simply die, because their heart gives out becaase of time passing.  The elimination of disease doesn't not stop your body from aging and eventually failing.  And my answer would be no.BTW, this question is the plot line from season four of Angel.  As that season showed, the only way to have a quick answer ending war, poverty, murder, etc., was essentially to strip humans of their free will, and follow whatever instructions from the "aliens."  The reason we have war, murder, etc. is due to free will, as people choose to kill, etc. for their own reasons.  

This message was edited by EliSnow on 3-24-06 @ 9:22 AM

spazemunky

03-24-2006, 05:22 AM

we say yes, then we have 100 years to prepare for the war.

Dougie Brootal

03-24-2006, 05:26 AM

spazemunky wrote: we say yes, then we have 100 years to prepare for the war. EXACTLY!

This message was edited by douggrasso on 3-24-06 @ 9:26 AM

Earlshog

03-24-2006, 05:27 AM

Tall_James wrote: Only if they take the coloreds.                                 Joking.  Just Joking.  Jeez.  If that were the case we would then bump it up to 5 mil every 50 years.... sorry you had to read that Earl...

Judge Smails

03-24-2006, 05:29 AM

Sheeplovr wrote:  Im starting an revultion right now whos with me to stop Judge_smails and his alien over lords Curses and drat! You have obstructed me for now, but your feeble bid to save humanity will fail! Hail Xenu!!!' <img src="http://garfieldridge.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/xenu.jpg" border="0" />

Mike Teacher

03-24-2006, 06:23 AM

I said that I would agree to it in a heartbeat and people acted like I was worse than Hitler.  Personally, I don't see it.  I'm willing to sacrifice 5 million people every hundred years if we could live in a perfect world.  =Yeah every hundred years makes it seem easy to say 'The risk is worth it' but what if the aliens wanted 5 million peeps every decade, or worse, every year? 6 billion or so here now, so that a bit less that 1 out of every 1,000 people every year to get shipped off to a planet where the best seller is 'To Serve Man'.I'd have to think a bit more on that.

Furtherman

03-24-2006, 06:28 AM

You all say "Yes" now because 100 years from now you won't be around to worry that you might be one of the 5 million.I would never sell out my fellow human.No.

FezPaul

03-24-2006, 06:33 AM

Don't call them aliens, they're " undocumented inter-planetery travelers"

Judge Smails

03-24-2006, 06:51 AM

Mike Teacher wrote:  6 billion or so here now, so that a bit less that 1 out of every 1,000 people every year to get shipped off to a planet where the best seller is 'To Serve Man'.What if it all turns out to be a big misunderstanding and there was just some space dust on the cover of the book and the real title is: How to Cook FOR Forty Humans?  <img src="http://www.astronomija.co.yu/teorije/aliens/fermi/kengikods.gif" border="0" />``There were monsters on that ship, and truly we were them.'' <img height="58" src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/neolithic/LisaSimpson11.gif" width="56" border="0" />

FezPaul

03-24-2006, 07:14 AM

Tall_James wrote: Only if they take the coloreds.Joking.  Just Joking.  Jeez.  I'm still gonna give you this.....http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f281/FezPaul/anidifranco_k.gif

FUNKMAN

03-24-2006, 07:21 AM

when you say "at random'" i would imagine it could be one of your family members, son, daughter, grandchild? Would you be willing to risk it?i'm not sure right now....and someone said we would never die because there would be no disease????  don't people just die from 'old age'?  eventually their heart just gives out cause it's 'old', not diseased... i think

HBox

03-24-2006, 07:32 AM

More than 5 million people die every YEAR from disease. Much more.

Sheeplovr

03-24-2006, 07:37 AM

BTW, this question
is the plot line from season four of Angel.  As that season showed, the
only way to have a quick answer ending war, poverty, murder, etc., was
essentially to strip humans of their free will, and follow whatever
instructions from the "aliens."  The reason we have war, murder, etc.
is due to free will, as people choose to kill, etc. for their own
reasons. ohh your right i miss angeli watched that bones show just waiting for him to vamp out

EliSnow

03-24-2006, 07:39 AM

HBox wrote: More than 5 million people die every YEAR from disease. Much more. Currently.  In 100 years or 200 years, man may figure out how to eliminate many of those deaths each year.  However, by agreeing to the above request (which by the way we don't know exactly how the aliens will enact their promises), we may be sacrificing millions of lives that would not have had to be sacrificed.  Overall, my philosophy with complex problems is that they require complex answers, and any attempt to go to a shortcut can only cause more problems.  That's where I stand on this question.

TheRealEddie

03-24-2006, 07:41 AM

mikeyboy wrote: I think I figured this one out -- the aliens making the offer are from an alien company selling "organic" humans to alien restaurants. This way they can insure that the humans they sell are disease free and relatively pampered (they don't have to deal with the stresses of poverty, pollution, etc.). Also, the 5 million that they take every 100 years are given up voluntarily, so there's no risk of battle scars -- I mean, you can't sell sauteed human at a high end alien bistro if it's missing a leg. I knew the organic food companies were evil.  Bravo! <img border="0" src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/clap.gif" />

HBox

03-24-2006, 07:58 AM

EliSnow wrote: HBox wrote: More than 5 million people die every YEAR from disease. Much more. Currently. In 100 years or 200 years, man may figure out how to eliminate many of those deaths each year. However, by agreeing to the above request (which by the way we don't know exactly how the aliens will enact their promises), we may be sacrificing millions of lives that would not have had to be sacrificed. Overall, my philosophy with complex problems is that they require complex answers, and any attempt to go to a shortcut can only cause more problems. That's where I stand on this question.   Or we might not ever. Or it could take 5000 years. Or once we conquer one disease, another could pop up and we are at square one all over again.I don't know how many people die of disease every year, but lets put the figure at 15 million. A very conservative estimate, just for the sake of argument. And lets say it takes only 200 years to wipe out all disease, again unlikely. That's 3 billion people dead. It would take 60000 years for this plan to match what we would lose under this extremely conservative, optomistic estimate.

EliSnow

03-24-2006, 08:20 AM

HBox wrote: Or we might not ever. Or it could take 5000 years. Or once we conquer one disease, another could pop up and we are at square one all over again. I don't know how many people die of disease every year, but lets put the figure at 15 million. A very conservative estimate, just for the sake of argument. And lets say it takes only 200 years to wipe out all disease, again unlikely. That's 3 billion people dead. It would take 60000 years for this plan to match what we would lose under this extremely conservative, optomistic estimate.  You're right that we can be certain about what mankind can do on its own, but we also don't know exactly what the aliens will do to meet their promise.  Under their promise, they cure all known diseases, but not all existing diseases.  So they could keep their promise, and then 80 years goes by, and a disease comes that wipes out most of the world, except for about 10-20 million.  However by that time, because disease has been eliminated our doctors and scientists are not in a position to deal with that disease, which they may have been able to if they had continued to work on curing the other diseasThe alien's promise does not extend to the new disease (it was not known at the the time of the agreement) and yet, they still get to take 5 million people.Plus, they've promised to end war, murder, poverty, etc.  How are they going to end murder and war?  Those things arise out of fundamental portions of our being.  Thus, to end those things,  you would have to change our fundamental nature.  There are a number of other complex consquences and permutations that would arise from this agreement.  But would any of the persons who said yes, stop to ask these questions of the aliens before saying yes?

Judge Smails

03-24-2006, 08:21 AM

Furtherman wrote: You all say "Yes" now because 100 years from now you won't be around to worry that you might be one of the 5 million.I would never sell out my fellow human.No.I can see that line of thinking. But, consider all the good that you would be doing for an infinitely larger number of people if you agreed to the alien proposal.  If I might paraphrase a great Vulcan philosopher: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

SinA

03-24-2006, 08:26 AM

no dealwithout hesitation.  all of the things in the promise sound nice, so we should try to achieve them on our own.  to have these problems solved for us is the easy way out, and despite all the good it would do us, the human race wouldn't have grown as it would having overcome it's own struggles.as an american (for what it's worth) we also should recognize the value of equality, justice, and to some extent the orderly progress we have now.  people today do not die by a "random choice," they die because of the things that happen to them (lung cancer, aids, cirrosis, cholesterol).  automatic cures to all of our diseases takes away any incentive for responsible living.  also, the sickness and decline of life gives time to accept ang grieve for friends and family.and i saw an earlier post said that we'd get new diseases before long, or the world would get quickly overpopulated

Furtherman

03-24-2006, 08:27 AM

judge_smails wrote: Furtherman wrote: You all say "Yes" now because 100 years from now you won't be around to worry that you might be one of the 5 million.I would never sell out my fellow human.No.I can see that line of thinking. But, consider all the good that you would be doing for an infinitely larger number of people if you agreed to the alien proposal.  If I might paraphrase a great Vulcan philosopher: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.But then a crew of Earthlings put their ass on the line to save that one Vulcan, saying that the needs of the one, outweigh the needs of the many.  That's what makes us different from those green-blooded, cold hearted, pointy-eared bastards.

EliSnow

03-24-2006, 08:48 AM

As a continuation of my thoughts in my earlier posts, there are numerous consequences, many potentially harmful, that may arise from this agreement.  For instance, even if the aliens were able to keep their promise to end disease, war, starvation, murder, poverty etc. and create a Garden of Eden, this would likely have disastorous long term consequences to mankind.  By creating a Garden of Eden, you would take away incentive for most of mankind to improve and create advancements.  Without disease, war, etc., you would slow down and likely end scientific achievements.  Many of our scientific achievements have been developed to deal with such problems.  If those problems are gone, what incentive is there to create further advancements?Without the threat of poverty and starvation, what incentive is there for anyone to work or better oneself?   These are just a few examples, but giving mankind a Garden of Eden would eventually lead to stagnation in the development of humankind.  We would not just stagnate, we would go backwards to be less advanced then we are now.  We would in effect be dependent upon the paradise created by these aliens.  Yet, things could change.  The aliens could die out, could rescind their agreement, etc.   If such a thing happens, where would mankind be?  Suddenly, mankind could be faced with disease, natural disasters, or other problems that mankind would not be in a place to handle.   That may lead to more deaths than if we tried working on our own.So while some lives may be saved initially, the agreement could lead to more deaths or the end of mankind.

SinA

03-24-2006, 08:50 AM

Eli, you just thit the nail on the head.Kill the aliens and take their technology.

EliSnow

03-24-2006, 08:51 AM

SinA wrote: Eli, you just thit the nail on the head.Kill the aliens and take their technology.Your earlier post was saying similar things.  I'm just more long-winded.

HBox

03-24-2006, 11:42 AM

people today do not die by a "random choice,"
they die because of the things that happen to them (lung cancer, aids,
cirrosis, cholesterol).  automatic cures to all of our diseases takes
away any incentive for responsible living.  also, the sickness and
decline of life gives time to accept ang grieve for friends and family.Plenty of people die by random choice. PLENTY.

HBox

03-24-2006, 11:47 AM

Here's a different moral question: If the aliens came to you and said to you that we could have the cure for ONE disease, any disease you choose, but in turn you have to give your own life, and just your own life, no one else's, would you do it?

EliSnow

03-24-2006, 11:55 AM

HBox wrote: Here's a different moral question: If the aliens came to you and said to you that we could have the cure for ONE disease, any disease you choose, but in turn you have to give your own life, and just your own life, no one else's, would you do it? Depends upon the disease I guess.  If they come from planet Staples and believe that alcoholism is a disease, and that was the one, then no.But assuming it's one that causes a lot of pain and death, then I'd say yes, if I could verify that there cure works.Sorry, missed that portion of your post where you said disease of my choice.  

This message was edited by EliSnow on 3-24-06 @ 4:09 PM

SinA

03-24-2006, 12:04 PM

HBox wrote:  people today do not die by a "random choice," they die because of the things that happen to them (lung cancer, aids, cirrosis, cholesterol).  automatic cures to all of our diseases takes away any incentive for responsible living.  also, the sickness and decline of life gives time to accept ang grieve for friends and family.  Plenty of people die by random choice. PLENTY. right.  your aliens can't save those people.

SinA

03-24-2006, 12:05 PM

SatCam

03-24-2006, 12:06 PM

This question is way too hypothetical for me to answer...

I mean, c'mon, aliens? that could cure all diseases? that are human-sized? that can travel through space? that can communicate with us? that can live under earthly conditions?

 BUT if all that was true... I would say no. I couldn't make that decision for the human race.

curtoid

03-24-2006, 12:26 PM

No - and pretty much for all the reasons Eli is saying.If you look at the planet and people as a living organism, then you have to accept that disease is as much a part of that as anything else.

HBox

03-24-2006, 12:30 PM

right.  your aliens can't save those people.Yes they can. Not everybody who is sick did something to deserve it.

SinA

03-24-2006, 12:42 PM

HBox wrote:  right.  your aliens can't save those people.  Yes they can. Not everybody who is sick did something to deserve it. when some guy has a bad day and opens fire in the post office and kills people, that's random.  people who get sick get sick because of a cause... it might seem random to you.  it might be genetic, it might have to do with diet, their childhood, chemicals in their water, exposure to the sun...  just because they didn't do something to bring it on (deserve it) doesn't mean it's random.

Gvac

03-24-2006, 01:55 PM

This thread reminds me of Milton's "Paradise Lost" in some strange way.And of course, I wouldn't make that deal for all the tea in China.

Furtherman

03-24-2006, 01:58 PM

Sheeplovr

03-28-2006, 08:42 AM

talking about this on the air

MasterSoySauce

03-28-2006, 08:55 AM

i would do it. No hunger would be sweet.

Reephdweller

03-28-2006, 03:01 PM

I'd only do it if say it was in exchange for my myself. I could see myself doing that for the better of mankind. Though I wouldn't be able to make the decision on the fate of others. I always wonder about what a president must go through when they make the decision to send troops in somewhere or declaring a war knowing it will mean death for others. For me it would be the same thing and I would hate to have their deaths on my conscience.

sr71blackbird

03-28-2006, 03:15 PM

I think there would be massive over population of we didnt get rid of huge amounts of people if we didnt die as often as we they are proposing.  But who'd want to be in that 5 million?

MuleBrenner

03-28-2006, 07:26 PM

Yeah, like Mexicans are ever gonna cure shit. This is the hypothetical to end all hypotheticals.....

Coach

03-28-2006, 10:20 PM

Gvac wrote: This thread reminds me of Milton's "Paradise Lost" in some strange way.And of course, I wouldn't make that deal for all the tea in China. Well it is the classic: whrever I go is hell

Fat_Sunny

06-05-2007, 07:27 AM

Hey, F_S Went Out For Coffee This Morning And He Was Listening To A Show Re-Run And They Were Talking About This Thread. Since It Was Before Fat's Time On RF.Net, He Pulled It Up To Read.

The Discussion On The Show Was A Hoot! It Was Surprising How Different Dave And Earl Both Sounded On A Show That Was Just A Year Or So Old. Dave Sounded Very Calm, Almost Soft-Spoken, And Earl Was More Articulate And Confident-Sounding. It Was A Great Discussion.

Having Sorted Through Judge Smails' Threads To Find This, Fat Would Like To Compliment Him On The Interesting-Ness And Provocative-Ness Of His Posts Over The Years.

There Were Many Excellent Titles, But F_S Was Particularly Drawn To This Gem:

How come Barry Manilow never married?

Good Work, Good Judge!

Judge Smails

06-05-2007, 08:01 AM

Having Sorted Through Judge Smails' Threads To Find This, Fat Would Like To Compliment Him On The Interesting-Ness And Provocative-Ness Of His Posts Over The Years.

There Were Many Excellent Titles, But F_S Was Particularly Drawn To This Gem:

How come Barry Manilow never married?

Good Work, Good Judge!

You like me! You really like me!

http://goldderby.latimes.com/awards_goldderby/images/sallyfieldoscar.jpg