Democracy in the Middle East Update [Archive]

Recyclerz

01-26-2006, 03:53 AM

Free parlimentary elections in the Palestinian territories have apparently resulted in an outright Hamas victory. For those who don't follow these things closely, Hamas is considered by the US to be a terrorist organization.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4649606.stm

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L26716786.htm

Trying to put my partisianship aside, I think the follow-on to what happens here will be a great test of whether our President gets to claim victory for his "Shake up the Region" justification for invading Iraq. I know what I think will happen but if Hamas abandons terrorism and becomes even a semi-responsible entity in the region I think W and the NeoCons are entitled to one end zone dance. We shouldn't have to wait too long to see.

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[b]There ain't no asylum here.
King Solomon, he never lived 'round here[b]

Se7en

01-26-2006, 07:27 AM

Yay!  Democratic elections!  It goes without saying, but I'll do so anyway, that everyone here should be concerned that, as the results are in, THIS is the will of the people.  I'm sure a lot of people were willing to give the Palestinians the benefit of the doubt, and it was good to see that they didn't disappoint.....well, me.....by clearly proving the majority of them are pro-terrorism, pro-murder, and all about driving Israel "into the sea," or whatever other fucked up rhetoric their leadership gives them.Now that Hamas is actually the 'state' government of Palestine, one would THINK that from here on out, any terrorist action by them against Israel (and it's going to happen, you know this) would only go to legitimize what Israel (and the U.S.) have been saying for years, which wouldn't win Hamas too much international favor.But who are we kidding?  I'm sure the U.N. will just do what it usually does, and blame everything on Israel.  As Hamas continues to do things like blow up busfuls of Israeli children or suicide bomb crowded Israeli restaurants.Sorry if I'm bitter, it's just that it's always a hard pill to swallow to go into the Palestinians elections with low expectations and somehow wind up with a result even worse than I had anticipated, if such a thing was possible.P.S.  Wasn't Jimmy Carter there?  Has he proclaimed this a victory for democracy yet?  I'd be surprised if he hasn't.  Hamas had him at hello.P.S.S.  Hamas is going to bomb Israel (or some other terrorist act) in the future, but when they do, please don't try and pin this on Bush and his foreign policy in the Middle East.  He could quite literally bend over and let every Palestinian male come up and fuck him in the ass, but it still isn't his fault or a failure of his policy if the Palestinians turn around and vote murderous subhuman thugs into their government office.  There's only so much you can do for, or so much diplomacy you can try with, a people who's concept of peace is defined by the total destruction of Israel.  This is me asking you, when the Hamas bombing comes (as it will), not to eagerly wave your finger around and claim, like a jackass, "A HA!  The Bush policy is a failure!", because of all of the criticism that can be levelled against the administration over how it handles the Middle East, and there's plenty of meat on that bone, there really isn't anything he (or anyone - not even Bill Clinton) could do to convince Palestine that anything other than the annihilation of Israel is worthwhile.

Furtherman

01-26-2006, 07:40 AM

Wow.  Defensive much? 

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TheMojoPin

01-26-2006, 09:59 AM

Why shouldn't this be expected?  The Palestinians have been brutalized and dehumanized from the day the Israelis staked down their bullshit claim on the region.  They've been made less than second class citizens in their own country, and now everything points to an extreme hardline Israeli government taking over with Sharon out of the picture.  Oh, but that's right, Israel's hands are clean in all of this!  THEY'RE the only victims here!  Nothing they do is ever, EVER wrong!Suicide terrorist attacks on civilians are the lowest of the low, but that the mentality of the Palestinians is sheer desperation and rage at this point, what, surprises you?  The entire world ignores them so they can line up to yodel Israel's yambag, and they're expected to just twiddle their thumbs and whistle as the Israelis subject them to whatever the fuck they feel like?Why were Jews, Christians and Muslims able to live in the birthplace of all three religions for thousands of years, yet Israel is formed, everyone else is kicked to the curb and essentially terrorized or "ghetto-ized" into the margins and now people wanna act like "WHA- HAPPENED?!?" and honestly expect everyone to just shrug and go along with it?  Israel has faced genuine threats (despite existing only because the US, UK and UN forced the country in the region where, uhm, people were already living.  Go figure) in its history, but it's used those as an excuse to treat the Palestinians as less than human in their own land.  What's up with that?  Terrorist attacks are horrible, but why is everyone surprised when people resort to that when they're country has been occupied for 60 years now and they've shoved into the gutter?  No political power, little ownership of anything, hardly any land left for them to just live on...this is OK?  Why?No doubt people will jump on this and tag me as God only knows what, but fuck Israel.  The leaders there have made decisions over the decades that don't give a damn about the Palestinians and, in an even sicker way, their own people.  They've done whatever they can to maintain this perpetual cycle of violence because it ultimately serves them and their agendas.  And fuck the Palestinians, too, for doing the exact same thing and resorting to the most cowardly form of counterattack you can think of.  Yeah, it's obvious their backs are against the wall, but hey, to pull out ye olde cliche, didn't anyone learn ANYTHING from Ghandi?  These people all deserve each other with as much as they seem to love making moronic policies that only ultimately hurt themselves the most.But back to the issue at hand, look at the Palestinian options...they essentially had Hamas and everyone else who was gonna do the same old shit that resulted in them being treated even worse in their own country.  Hamas isn't the right choice from our viewpoint, but what other choice do they have?  How long are people supposed to just sit back and take being treated worse than animals and the most powerful countries in the world pretty much all support the one country that's grinding you into the dirt?<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin" border="0" /> Dancing with the women at the bar... << He knows his Claret from his Beaujolais >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 1-26-06 @ 2:21 PM

Ndugu

01-26-2006, 10:10 AM

to add to what mojo said i hate the way they control the banks and the media too!

TheMojoPin

01-26-2006, 10:16 AM

Yeah, that's obviously what I was getting at.Fuck off.

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Dancing with the women at the bar... << He knows his Claret from his Beaujolais >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."</center>

Ndugu

01-26-2006, 10:22 AM

it was a little joke sweet pea no need for thr language

Tall_James

01-26-2006, 10:22 AM

<img src="http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c174/cheeseeatingbird/sand_people.jpg" border="0" />"VOTE FOR ME - THE SAND PEOPLE'S CHOICE!"<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=tall_james" border="0" />

This message was edited by Tall_James on 1-26-06 @ 5:10 PM

Furtherman

01-26-2006, 10:27 AM

Well said Mojo.  The whole Israel fiasco is more trouble than it's worth.

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Recyclerz

01-26-2006, 12:30 PM

quote: please don't try and pin this on Bush and his foreign policy in the Middle East.  He could quite literally bend over and let every Palestinian male come up and fuck him in the ass, but it still isn't his fault or a failure of his policy if the Palestinians turn around and vote murderous subhuman thugs into their government office.  There's only so much you can do for, or so much diplomacy you can try with, a people who's concept of peace is defined by the total destruction of Israel.   I don't blame Bush for the Palestinians only having the choice of two terrorist organizations in an election; one old, busted and corrupt, the other more vigorous in its evil but more willing to spread the cash.  I do think it is fair to point out that the latest justification for the Iraq adventure from this administration, spreading democracy in the southwestern corner of Asia, at the point of the proverbial sword if necessary, may not turn out to have been the bestest, or the most thought out of ideas, after all.  <img src="http://www.hometown.aol.com/recyclerz/myhomepage/sigpic1.gif?mtbrand=AOL_US" border="0" /> There ain't no asylum here. King Solomon, he never lived 'round here

This message was edited by Recyclerz on 1-26-06 @ 11:50 PM

TheRealEddie

01-26-2006, 12:56 PM

Well put Mojo, spot on.Lets see how fast we put our feet in our "spread democracy" mouths: Palestinians to George Bush:<img width="328" height="410" border="0" src="http://www.tcnj.edu/%7Evanstr2/bush-owned.jpg" /> 

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This message was edited by TheRealEddie on 1-26-06 @ 5:05 PM

Bulldogcakes

01-26-2006, 06:13 PM

Mojo, I agree with alot of what you said, but I actually think electing Hamas may be a positive step for both Israel and the Palestinians. Recent history with the IRA (and others) shows militant groups can moderate when they get power. Hamas is THE ONLY group that has OBSERVED the cease fire. Its also been reported that they've cut a deal with the Israelis where they will stop targeting Hamas leaders. Both show that they can be dealt with. Hamas also provides alot of social services to the people, they're not just the terrorist group they  seem to get painted as in the media (BTW-mostly because network media gives so little depth of coverage). They're also the only group with the muscle to put down the smaller splinter groups who have kept launching bombs at Israel. From the Palestinian perspective, they're simply sick of the corruption of the PA and want someone who'll straighten things out. From the US perspective, we have a little problem to work out. We list Hamas as a "Terrorist organization". Condi Rice has made these comments <a href="http://www.forward.com/articles/7230" target="_self" title="link">link</a> 
Rice, in a statement last week, reiterated America's view that "there
should be no place in the political process for groups or individuals
who refuse to renounce terror and violence, recognize Israel's right to
exist, and disarm."

Rice also laid out America's criteria for an acceptable Palestinian
partner. "To participate in a peace process of Israelis and
Palestinians, the Palestinian partner must at least accept Israel's
right to exist," she said. "To implement agreements on movement and
access for the Palestinian territories, the Palestinian partner must be
committed to preventing violence. In short, the Palestinian partner
must be committed to peaceful development." Rice made clear that
Washington does not consider Hamas in its current form as an acceptable
partner. Quotes like that make me cringe. Who the fuck are we or Israel to tell the Palestinians who they should or shouldn't elect? How would we like it if someone said that to us? (actually, the French do it to us all the time and we cant stand it) Either we support Democracy or we dont. The "disarm" comment bothers me too. We all know for all intents and purposes that the West bank and Gaza are seperate entities from Israel. They're not allowed to defend themselves against invasion? Again, one set of rules for us and Israel, another set for everyone else. 

http://www.silentpix.com/hottub/bulldogsig/rotate.php

<A HREF=http://bulldogcakes.tripod.com/>My site Bully Baby</A>

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Death Metal Moe

01-26-2006, 06:14 PM

quote:<img width="328" height="410" border="0" src="http://www.tcnj.edu/%7Evanstr2/bush-owned.jpg" /> <img width="379" height="298" border="0" src="http://www.orlyowls.com/submit/images/orlybush.jpg" /> 

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DTN

TheMojoPin

01-26-2006, 07:56 PM

quote: Mojo, I agree with alot of what you said, but I actually think electing Hamas may be a positive step for both Israel and the Palestinians. Recent history with the IRA (and others) shows militant groups can moderate when they get power. Hamas is THE ONLY group that has OBSERVED the cease fire. Its also been reported that they've cut a deal with the Israelis where they will stop targeting Hamas leaders. Both show that they can be dealt with. Hamas also provides alot of social services to the people, they're not just the terrorist group they  seem to get painted as in the media (BTW-mostly because network media gives so little depth of coverage). They're also the only group with the muscle to put down the smaller splinter groups who have kept launching bombs at Israel. From the Palestinian perspective, they're simply sick of the corruption of the PA and want someone who'll straighten things out. From the US perspective, we have a little problem to work out. We list Hamas as a "Terrorist organization". Condi Rice has made these comments <a title="link" href="http://www.forward.com/articles/7230" target="_self">link</a>  quote:  Rice, in a statement last week, reiterated America's view that "there should be no place in the political process for groups or individuals who refuse to renounce terror and violence, recognize Israel's right to exist, and disarm."Rice also laid out America's criteria for an acceptable Palestinian partner. "To participate in a peace process of Israelis and Palestinians, the Palestinian partner must at least accept Israel's right to exist," she said. "To implement agreements on movement and access for the Palestinian territories, the Palestinian partner must be committed to preventing violence. In short, the Palestinian partner must be committed to peaceful development." Rice made clear that Washington does not consider Hamas in its current form as an acceptable partner.   Quotes like that make me cringe. Who the fuck are we or Israel to tell the Palestinians who they should or shouldn't elect? How would we like it if someone said that to us? (actually, the French do it to us all the time and we cant stand it) Either we support Democracy or we dont. The "disarm" comment bothers me too. We all know for all intents and purposes that the West bank and Gaza are seperate entities from Israel. They're not allowed to defend themselves against invasion? Again, one set of rules for us and Israel, another set for everyone else. <img src="http://www.silentpix.com/hottub/bulldogsig/rotate.php" border="0" /> <a href="http://bulldogcakes.tripod.com/">My site Bully Baby</a> "Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." - Anon Great, great points, BDC.  I'll admit I was pretty pissed off when I wrote my earlier post, so a lot of what I said probably came across pretty blunt.  The election of Hamas to power might actually be just the thing needed to bring both sides to a new level of negotiations. 

<center><img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin">
 
Dancing with the women at the bar... << He knows his Claret from his Beaujolais >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."</center>

Recyclerz

01-26-2006, 08:15 PM

Way to see the glass as half full, BDC & Mojo, but my advice is, if you're betting the rent money on your positions - make sure you get the points.  <img src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/ohmy.gif" border="0" /> 

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[b]There ain't no asylum here.
King Solomon, he never lived 'round here[b]

A.J.

01-26-2006, 11:38 PM

Why were Jews, Christians and Muslims able to live in the birthplace of all three religions for thousands of years,Actually, Islam was born in Makkah, Saudi Arabia where the Quran was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad by God.  The holy sites in Jerusalem are where the Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham) reportedly was prepared to sacrifice his son and where the Prophet Muhammad last stood on earth before ascending to Heaven.But your post was spot-on Mojo.  And remember: if you're critical of Israel, you must be anti-Semetic!  

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Furtherman

01-27-2006, 05:26 AM

Hard-core voters.<img height="436" src="http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/060126/060126_ramallah_vote_vmed_8p.widec.jpg" width="298" border="0" />

<img src=http://www.chaoticconcepts.com/randomizer/random.php?uid=7>

TheMojoPin

01-27-2006, 05:36 AM

quote: Way to see the glass as half full, BDC & Mojo, but my advice is, if you're betting the rent money on your positions - make sure you get the points.  <img src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/ohmy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.hometown.aol.com/recyclerz/myhomepage/sigpic1.gif?mtbrand=AOL_US" border="0" /> There ain't no asylum here. King Solomon, he never lived 'round here Hey, it COULD work.  The IRA example is a perfect one...cliche as it is, terrorism does not "work."  It can only take someone so far...you need to have legitimate power if you want to attempt to enact real change.  Besides, who else except Hamas has the best chance of actually reducing or stopping Palestinian attacks on Israel?  The other governments have shown themselves to be woefully ineffective at even wanting to do such a thing.  And like you said, certain people here should be crossing their fingers over this...if a group like Hamas can take steps towards some kind of peace through democratic means, isn't that a huge victory for the "road map to peace?"  You'd think some people would have a little more faith in the folks they're so defensive about... And thanks for clarifying, AJ!<img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=TheMojoPin" border="0" /> Dancing with the women at the bar... << He knows his Claret from his Beaujolais >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."

This message was edited by TheMojoPin on 1-27-06 @ 9:37 AM

JimBeam

01-27-2006, 06:39 AM

Is that a ballot box or a trash can ?No wonder the lections are pretty shakey over there.The night cleanup crew probably shitcanned half of the votes.

I have balls !!!

TheMojoPin

01-27-2006, 07:38 AM

<a href="http://www.somethingawful.com/" target="_blank">I like the suggestion on somethingawful.com...finding a new group that the Israelis and Plaestinians can hate together:</a>Gypsies are a good choice, because they're only really an ethnic group to fat goth girls who smoke clove cigarettes and like to romanticize their coarse Eastern European facial features. The thing is, it's hard to get worked up about gypsies. When was the last time you saw some woman in a silk head scarf with smoldering eyes pawing a crystal ball and talking like count Dracula? Probably at least a month ago, maybe two or three. Yet there is a group of people, like gypsies but not gypsies, who travel the land and are immediately distrusted. Where they wander, trouble is sure to follow. No, not truck drivers, although they're pretty horrid as well. I'm talking about hurricane Katrina refugees.Black, white or racially indistinct, they have been uprooted from their chocolate city by the rising tidewaters and now they travel the land. Whether they're taking jobs from your community or taking the lives of your children in a midnight orgy of bloodletting, they will take and take and take. They will out-stay their welcome. They will eat you out of house and home. They will will fart up your couch and pretend to try to find a job and an apartment while they order On Demand pornos and spend their Red Cross money on Vicodin. Katrina refugees are truly unwanted outcasts worthy of the mutual hatred of Israelis and Palestinians.

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Dancing with the women at the bar... << He knows his Claret from his Beaujolais >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."</center>

FUNKMAN

01-27-2006, 07:42 AM

They will will fart up your couch and pretend to try to find a jobfunny!

<img src="http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y201/torker1313/funkunslic.jpg"> 
Tork, thanks for the sig!

bobrobot

01-27-2006, 07:56 AM

I'm sure this will end glowingly...<img src="http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/large/mushroomcloud-37024.jpg" border="0" />

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Never trust a junky

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TheMojoPin

01-27-2006, 08:16 AM

On a random inflammatory note...Remember how that guy Reagan cemented his legacy by going on and on and on about how a wall those bad ol' communists put up was basically the most evil thing we had ever seen since WW2?Yep, those sure were the days...<img height="271" src="http://students.bugs.bham.ac.uk/palestinian/wall%20amidst%20houses.jpg" width="410" border="0" /><img height="240" src="http://www.ulpgc.es/hege/almacen/download/22/22959/portada.jpg" width="237" border="0" /><img height="448" src="http://www.gush-shalom.org/media/2004/8/29/4.jpg" width="300" border="0" /><img height="609" src="http://www.mediamouse.org/gallery/albums/Separation-Wall/Wall_3.jpg" width="447" border="0" /><img height="255" src="http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030922/wd3.jpg" width="200" border="0" /><img height="375" src="http://www.worldpress.org/images/20050520-separation-wall.jpg" width="250" border="0" /><img height="415" src="http://www.salam-shalom.net/salam-shalom/wall.gif" width="283" border="0" /><img height="230" src="http://www.middlebury.edu/NR/rdonlyres/41F4D5A0-5246-46DA-AA24-BDD5B74F1F60/30605/image001.jpg" width="305" border="0" /><img height="305" src="http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/images/0930-02.jpg" width="225" border="0" /><img height="219" src="http://www.vtjp.org/images/INCwall_b5.jpg" width="300" border="0" /><img height="359" src="http://zaytoun.org/wordpress/images/WallQalqilya.jpg" width="504" border="0" /><img height="192" src="http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2004/07/09/wall372.jpg" width="372" border="0" /><img height="273" src="http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040709/040709_israel_wall_hmed_4a.hmedium.jpg" width="392" border="0" /><img height="195" src="http://www.ccmep.org/2004_articles/palestine/ghetoo.jpg" width="287" border="0" /><img src="http://zioneocon.blogspot.com/stars%20on%20the%20wall.jpg" border="0" /><img height="410" src="http://students.bugs.bham.ac.uk/palestinian/wall-A3.jpg" width="268" border="0" /><img height="229" src="http://images.washtimes.com/photos/full/20050711-105812-6083.jpg" width="336" border="0" /><img height="291" src="http://www.prc.org.uk/artimages/wall-gate.jpg" width="400" border="0" /><img height="455" src="http://www.villagevoice.com/blogs/bushbeat/archive/images/the-wall-palestin-author.jpg" width="300" border="0" /><img height="259" src="http://www.mediamonitors.net/images/israelswall2.jpg" width="400" border="0" /><img height="466" src="http://www.palestinercs.org/images/Separation%20Wall/Separationwall050104WBRR2.jpg" width="600" border="0" /><img height="512" src="http://k43.pbase.com/u35/yalop/upload/23064205.32720010w.jpg" width="783" border="0" /><img height="412" src="http://www.palestinercs.org/images/Separation%20Wall/Qalqilia081003WBRR2.jpg" width="600" border="0" />People are caged and herded and treated like animals, and then are told/threatened/warned to vote a certain way by the people treating them like this?This is apartheid.This is wrong.Tear down these walls.

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Dancing with the women at the bar... << He knows his Claret from his Beaujolais >> "You can tell some lies about the good times we've had, but I've kissed your mother twice...and now I'm working on your dad..."</center>

FMJeff

01-27-2006, 05:01 PM

I love those guys. They have thier own colors, its like Bloods vs Crips all over again. You gotta hand it to the Palestinians, man. They're really the biggest buzz kills of the century. Finally Arafat dies, Sharon's out of the picture, and everyone's feeling positive about chances for peace in the middle east, that perhaps some moderates will step in, end the blood feud and all will be smiles and delicious cakes. And then they elect Hamas. Way to go Palestinians. Because militant groups always make responsible leaders, and wishing death on Israel always goes over well in the civilized world. I give up, really. They blew it. Time to trot out the ole h-bomb and start over. 

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It made my heart sing.

bobrobot

01-27-2006, 05:18 PM

quote: I give up, really. They blew it. Time to trot out the ole h-bomb and start over. YEE-HAW!!!<img title="slim pickens/ dr. strangelove" height="243" alt="slim pickens/ dr. strangelove" src="http://www.metronews.ca/uploadedImages/scene-strangelove_article.jpg" width="345" border="0" /> <img src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y46/bobogolem/SpongeBoboGolemPants.jpg" border="0" /> The gate swung open and in walked a fig newton. <a href="http://www.bobogolem.com/">bobogolem.com</a>

This message was edited by bobogolem on 1-27-06 @ 9:19 PM

Ndugu

01-27-2006, 05:25 PM

Tear down these walls.quit blowin up these busses!

FMJeff

01-27-2006, 05:31 PM

[quote]quote: Why shouldn't this be expected?  The Palestinians have been brutalized and dehumanized from the day the Israelis staked down their bullshit claim on the region.  They've been made less than second class citizens in their own country, and now everything points to an extreme hardline Israeli government taking over with Sharon out of the picture.  Oh, but that's right, Israel's hands are clean in all of this!  THEY'RE the only victims here!  Nothing they do is ever, EVER wrong!Israel is a country born out of pity and guilt stemming from genocide and imposed on the Palestinian nation. The violence is cyclical, and although its pointless to trace it back to the original violence which started the chain, the underlying hatred for the sons of Abraham pre-date this century. Let's not forget that. While I do agree nobody is truly "clean", Palestinians kill, Israelis take revenge. Yes, I'm generalizing, but its accurate.  Suicide terrorist attacks on civilians are the lowest of the low, but that the mentality of the Palestinians is sheer desperation and rage at this point, what, surprises you?  The entire world ignores them so they can line up to yodel Israel's yambag, and they're expected to just twiddle their thumbs and whistle as the Israelis subject them to whatever the fuck they feel like?What surprises me and continues to do so is a continued allegiance to the militant ideals as a means to an end. Islam has always been a curious religion for me due to its ambiguities. Some consider it a peaceful and enlightened religion, others consider it a violent and ignorant one. There is no peaceful process when it comes to Palestinians. Even when they elect thier own government, they start killing each other. Fatah vs Hamas. Fatah vs Israel. Hamas vs. Israel. They just want to fight i think. I don't think they know any other way at this point. It's sad, really. Why were Jews, Christians and Muslims able to live in the birthplace of all three religions for thousands of years, yet Israel is formed, everyone else is kicked to the curb and essentially terrorized or "ghetto-ized" into the margins and now people wanna act like "WHA- HAPPENED?!?" and honestly expect everyone to just shrug and go along with it?  I wasn't there personally, but I'm willing to bet things were less than hunky dory amongst those three. Israel has faced genuine threats (despite existing only because the US, UK and UN forced the country in the region where, uhm, people were already living.  Go figure) in its history, but it's used those as an excuse to treat the Palestinians as less than human in their own land.  What's up with that?  Terrorist attacks are horrible, but why is everyone surprised when people resort to that when they're country has been occupied for 60 years now and they've shoved into the gutter?  No political power, little ownership of anything, hardly any land left for them to just live on...this is OK?  Why?I don't think any informed person would say its ok. I would put the blame more on the UN than Israel though. Israel is a new country trying to protect its own future, so I don't blame them for saying "sorry palestine, this is ours now, go screw". jews have thier own hurt to deal with, and they could care less about muslims who've hated them for centuries anyway, certainly the ones who annihiliate thier people through bombs.  No doubt people will jump on this and tag me as God only knows what, but fuck Israel.  The leaders there have made decisions over the decades that don't give a damn about the Palestinians and, in an even sicker way, their own people.  They've done whatever they can to maintain this perpetual cycle of violence because it ultimately serves them and their agen

Ndugu

01-27-2006, 05:37 PM

my attempt at a humorous picture to lighten the mood has failed miserabily

This message was edited by Ndugu on 1-27-06 @ 9:38 PM

Bulldogcakes

01-27-2006, 06:30 PM

quote: But your post was spot-on Mojo. And remember: if you're critical of Israel, you must be anti-Semetic! And if you're Jewish and critical of Israel, then you're a "self-hating Jew". A favorite technique of right wing Jews. Dismiss all disagreement with your positions as "hatred", then you dont have to deal with the (often complicated) substance at hand. Or the effectiveness of what you advocate.  And as long a 4 billion of MY tax $ buys Israel the bullets they're shooting these people with, I'm entitled to weigh in on the subject. You want us to mind our own business? Then buy your own bullets. <img border="0" src="http://www.silentpix.com/hottub/bulldogsig/rotate.php" /><a href="http://bulldogcakes.tripod.com/">My site Bully Baby</a>

This message was edited by Bulldogcakes on 1-27-06 @ 10:39 PM

HBox

01-27-2006, 06:36 PM

Anyone remember the short lived attempt by right-wingers to try and portray the term "neocon" as an anti-semitic code word? Boy was that stupid.

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A.J.

01-27-2006, 11:45 PM

And then they elect Hamas. Way to go Palestinians. Because militant groups always make responsible leaders, and wishing death on Israel always goes over well in the civilized world. If I had no other choice but to elect the corrupt, ineffective Fatah party, I'D probably give Hamas a shot too.  Instead of trying to build a state and help their people, those fuckers chose to line their pockets.

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TheMojoPin

01-28-2006, 07:07 AM

Israel is a country born out of pity and guilt stemming from genocide and imposed on the Palestinian nation. The violence is cyclical, and although its pointless to trace it back to the original violence which started the chain, the underlying hatred for the sons of Abraham pre-date this century. Let's not forget that. While I do agree nobody is truly "clean", Palestinians kill, Israelis take revenge. Yes, I'm generalizing, but its accurate.Couple things here...the "pity and guilt"...so what?  It takes a coldhearted person to not recognize the Jewish people as having been one of the most peresecuted groups throughout history...but how do so many gloss over the hypocrisy of that being the reasoning used to justify the crushing of a different group of people?  The "pity and guilt" mad it alright for a new country to be inserted where people were already living, and the stablished residents being made second class citizens in their own land, told where they can live, work, go to school, what they can own, etc., etc.?  I'm sick of the blanket statement like the Palestinians somehow started this.  Like I said, suicide bombs are NOT the way to react, but their is an obviously recognizable source of the desperation that inspires them.  The Palestinians didn't just think it up out of thin air, and always ticking it off to, "oh, they just hate the Jews" is a blatant fallacy.  And declaring that the Israelis ONLY react or take revenge is flat out wrong.What surprises me and continues to do so is a continued allegiance to the militant ideals as a means to an end. Islam has always been a curious religion for me due to its ambiguities. Some consider it a peaceful and enlightened religion, others consider it a violent and ignorant one. There is no peaceful process when it comes to Palestinians. Even when they elect thier own government, they start killing each other. Fatah vs Hamas. Fatah vs Israel. Hamas vs. Israel. They just want to fight i think. I don't think they know any other way at this point. It's sad, really.A lot of this is sadly true.  Several generations have grown up knowing nothing except being under the heel of Israel and the US, and that's going to inherently breed rage, hatred and resentment.  The Palestinians need to change plenty on their part to enact change, but at the same time Israel needs to stop grinding these people into the dirt of their own land.I wasn't there personally, but I'm willing to bet things were less than hunky dory amongst those three.Then why did they co-exist there for thousands of years, literally up until the day Israel was formed?I don't think any informed person would say its ok. I would put the blame more on the UN than Israel though. Israel is a new country trying to protect its own future, so I don't blame them for saying "sorry palestine, this is ours now, go screw". jews have thier own hurt to deal with, and they could care less about muslims who've hated them for centuries anyway, certainly the ones who annihiliate thier people through bombs.This brings up the question of legitimacy of Israel's existence in the first place.  Again, what gave anyone the right to insert Israel into a region where people were already living and then displacing those native residents and shoving them down the social and political and finnancial ladder just because they weren't "Israeli?"  And if the Muslims all hate them so much, why in God's name would the Israelis choose to insert a Jewish state SURROUNDED by them?  That's simply moronic.  If they didn't expect to be able to live there without persecuting, segregating, terrorizing and killing, why did they choose to live there?  If the reason is religion, well, bully, there's another way it makes humans do stupid, stupid things.[QUOTE]It's easy for an American to curse either s

Bulldogcakes

01-28-2006, 04:23 PM

When the Israelis elect the Likud, which is their hard line "war party", nobody complains but the folks who lost the election. The Palestinians elect Hamas (their version of Likud) and their religion's no good, the people know nothing but violence, etc, etc. BTW-Palestinians are ARABS not Muslims, and are largely secular like us. They're not a theocracy like Iran. Always remember whos a terrorist and whos a freedom fighter depends on which side of the fence you're on. And while were on the subject of racism, someone answer me this. How do you form a democracy around a religion and/or ethnicity and NOT have that be by definition a racist state, with all the consequences we've seen in the US and around the globe relating to institutionalized racism? 

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This message was edited by Bulldogcakes on 1-28-06 @ 9:46 PM

Bulldogcakes

01-29-2006, 03:37 PM

<a href="http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/01/29/D8FEIQG80.html" target="_self" title="Rice rules out aid to Palestinians ">Rice rules out aid to Palestinians </a> "The United States is not prepared to fund an
organization that advocates the destruction of Israel, that advocates
violence and that refuses its obligations," under an international
framework for eventual Mideast peace, Rice said.Not surprised. If they didn't do this they would have a huge political problem here at home. This president has made his adminstration about fighting terrorists. Now we see what Hamas does, but isolating them I think is a recipe for more attacks.  Earlier Sunday, with Hamas' victory discussed on
the U.S. talk shows, a Republican senator said cutting U.S. aid to the
Hamas-run government could push the Palestinians closer to Iran and
create further chaos in the Middle East. 

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Bulldogcakes

01-29-2006, 03:46 PM

<a href="http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyid=2006-01-29T205725Z_01_L20602990_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST.xml&rpc=22" target="_self" title="Hamas faces EU threat to cut Palestinian aid">Hamas faces EU threat to cut Palestinian aid</a>The European Union could not fund a Hamas-run Palestinian Authority
if it did not renounce violence and recognize Israel, German Chancellor
Angela Merkel said in Israel on Sunday.It was the most explicit
threat to cut aid from Europe, the biggest donor to the Palestinians,
since Islamic militant group Hamas won a shock victory in parliamentary
elections last week. The United States has also threatened to block
funding.Hamas, expected to form the new government, has
denounced Western threats to cut aid as blackmail and rejected calls to
disarm and end its formal commitment to destroy Israel.Diplomatic
sources said Merkel consulted other European leaders before the two-day
trip. Last year the European Union gave the Palestinian Authority 500
million euros ($615 million), money vital for its survival. Were obviously putting up a united front, and threatening with the purse strings in return for moderation. Stay tuned.   

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booster11373

01-29-2006, 05:34 PM

Its good to see Hamas tackling the important issues right awayHamas: Israel Must Change Flag  Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar said from Gaza that Israel must change its flag. "Israel must remove the two blue stripes from its national flag", said Zahar. “The stripes on the flag are symbols of occupation. They signify Israel's borders stretching from the River Euphrates to the River Nile." Israel’s national flag, a blue Star of David set between two blue stripes was designed to resemble a Jewish prayer shawl which traditionally has stripes. <a title="more on this story" href="http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=97520" target="_self">http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=97520</a> Will there ever be peace in the Middle East? probaly not in my life time and I got at least another 45 years hopefully!

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