View Full Version : High oil prices, Whos to blame?
WRESTLINGFAN
08-04-2005, 05:53 PM
With oil trading at over 60 dollars a barrel and no relief in sight, some speculate that it might spike up to over a hundred dollars, there has been arguements from the left blaming greedy oil companies. The right blames environmentalists for not letting oil companies drill for oil in Alaska, or the fact that there hasnt been a refinery built in the US in about 30 years. Others blame oil traders for bringing up prices. And there seems to be that us, the consumers are to blame. IE with prices as high as they are it seems every other vehicle on the road is a huge ass Suburban or Expedition and it looks like SUV sales wont be going down soon. I say its probably a bit of all these factors why oil is so high
O and A... PARTY ROCK!!!!!
FMJeff
08-04-2005, 09:28 PM
<p>I'm going with increased demand over steadily decreasing production;demand not only from the US, but from emerging third world powers as well. </p><p>Eventually the bubble will burst and we will HAVE to adopt alternative fuel vehicles. The technology exists.</p><p>People need to understand the automobile is a relatively new invention used all over the world. The switch from gasoline burning to alternative energy engines will be a slow change until the technology is cheap, mass produceable and reliable.</p>
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<br>
It made my heart sing.
Production isn't declining. The rate at which
production is growing is declining, and demand is rising at a far
greater rate. If demand ever outstrips production capacity, we will
wish for prices as cheap as they currently are.<br />
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WRESTLINGFAN
08-05-2005, 02:44 AM
<p>The Exxon Mobil CEO, Lee Raymond is stepping down at the end of the year. He looks like someone you just want to make a fist and sink it into his face</p><p> </p><p> </p><p><img title="oil giant" height="238" alt="oil giant" src="http://www.hooverdiana.com/Corporate/Newsroom/Publications/c_cc_02/graphics/this/lraymond.jpg" width="200" border="0" /></p>O and A... PARTY ROCK!!!!!
<font color=black>This message was edited by WRESTLINGFAN on 8-5-05 @ 6:45 AM</font>
Justice4all
08-05-2005, 04:26 AM
<p>I agree with Hbox..production is not declining so much as it is the Saudi's who know they have us in their back pocket.</p><p>The DEMAND is there so we shill out the money for the supply. We are...more or less...like junkies who need a fix. We need gas...pure and simple. One step is to bring out the hybrid cars. That is a good 1st step. People need to find a way to use less gas. </p><p>Carpooling also helps. Yes I know the idea has been thought of time and again,. but it IS a gas and money saver. I believe if we stopped using gas about 10-15% less then we do now, they will start a price war and LOWER prices! Gas demand is at the highest it's ever been. One thing is for certain...we need to do SOMETHING soon.</p>
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BeerBandit
08-05-2005, 05:28 AM
China is actually one of the biggest culprits. Human rights violations aside, China is <font color="#660000">Quickly <font color="#000000">developing into a super power economically. Remember all of those bicycles? Dwindling and being replaced by...you guessed it! Cars!
SUVS as well. So yes, while Americans are greedy energy hogs, the
rest of the world is following suit at a much faster rate. Vive
le democracie!<br />
</font></font>
Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds.
Albert Einstein
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BeerBandit
08-05-2005, 05:38 AM
<p><font size="4">Electric</font><font size="4"> Cars?
Hybrids? Corn as fuel? Nice start. Lets see solar
panels mandatory on every new house built. And installed on
existing buildings when a major renovation takes place. Like the
handicap accessability and asbestos removal policies. It won't
solve all of the problems but every little bit helps, right? </font></p><p><font size="4">And
how about when a blackout happens, and they tell everyone, once the
power comes back in some areas, not to run your A/Cs for about a day,
so as not to cause another blakcout, YET I see shots of fucking Times
Square, Virgin Megastore sign BLAZING AWAY, the whole goddamn strip
(well, lengthwise. Only one side of the street got power back
early) lit up like Uncle Angelo at Cousin Paulie's wedding. </font></p><p> <font size="4">Then,
it's time to eliminate NASCAR (and it's cronies IRL an NHRA) and
Michael Bay movies. Biggest wastes of fuel imaginable.<br />
</font></p><font size="4" />
Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds.
Albert Einstein
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East Side Dave
08-05-2005, 06:26 AM
<font style="font-size: 9px" face="Verdana">quote:</font><font style="font-size: 9px" face="Verdana"> </font><font size="4">Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds.</font><font size="4"> <p><font size="1">I totally agree. People are still upset at me for some reason after seeing my designs for a raft made out of midgets- which I plan to call The Midget Raft.</font></p></font>
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Furtherman
08-05-2005, 06:58 AM
<p>My Dwarf Canoe will be available 5 months before any <em>little person floatation device!</em> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>As for the oil situation, this website give an excellent view of how we're all screwed.</p><p><a href="http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/" target="_blank">Life After The Oil Crash</a></p>
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tbonesteak
08-05-2005, 10:44 AM
<p>Maybe we should start drilling in outer space. These guys did it:</p><p><img src="http://rds.yahoo.com/S=96062883/K=armageddon+movie/v=2/SID=e/TID=I999_73/l=IVI/SIG=12dav6010/EXP=1123353755/*-http%3A//www.monesi.com/sergio/movies/sep98/armageddon1.jpg" border="0" /></p>
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It's not a lack of morals. It's just that I don't care.
Doctor Manhattan
08-05-2005, 10:50 AM
<p><img src="http://s2.imagesubmit.com/wilson_owen.jpg" border="0" /></p><p><font color="#990000" size="2">Well, the Butterscotch Stallion just drills for <em>ace</em>!</font></p><a href="http://www.xmradio.com/programming/channel_page.jsp?ch=202" target="_blank"><img src="http://scripts.cgispy.com/image.cgi?u=skw" border="0" /></a>
<font color=black>This message was edited by SKW on 8-5-05 @ 2:54 PM</font>
mdr55
08-05-2005, 01:04 PM
<font face="Verdana" style="font-size: 9px;">quote:</font><p><font size="4"><br />
</font><font size="4"> </font></p><p><font size="4"><br />
</font></p><p> <font size="4">Then,
it's time to eliminate NASCAR (and it's cronies IRL an NHRA) and
Michael Bay movies. Biggest wastes of fuel imaginable.</font><br />
<br />
<img border="0" src="http://mmcdermott1.photosite.com/%7Ephotos/tn/86_348.ts1122066000400.jpg" /></p><p> </p><font size="4" /><font size="4"><br />Begin your response here...</font><p> </p><p> </p><p>But that's the only sport white folks are good at right now until the blacks move in.<br />
</p><font size="4" />
Mike from Bklyn
08-05-2005, 01:16 PM
<p>I don't feel the technology is there yet. Hybrid cars are just a
passing fad. Most car magazines feel this way and put froward pretty
good points. Not just journalist but engineers now turned journalist.
What happens to all these batteries when they die. No one is sure how
long they will last. The gas mileage these cars are getting isn't all
that great to make up the extra cost of ownership. </p>
I work for
FedEx and we just got Hybrid diesel electric trucks in. The gas mileage
doubles from 5 to 10 MPG. This is where these kind of vehicles belong.
Big fleets with companys who can afford and get special deals to buy,
sell and maintain these type of vehicles.
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Mike Teacher
08-05-2005, 02:35 PM
<p>I don't feel the technology is there yet.</p><p>=</p><p>That's exactly it, I venture to guess. the technology may be 'here' and not being implemented [as evidenced by the USAs non-desire for non-gasoline cars; they are almost absent from the 'new models' section of most major cars manufacturers, if not absent altogether.], or not invented yet. </p><p>The energy needed to put together and fuel said hybirds, so far, makes it moot at the end because oil is almost certainly in the process somewhere along the line of generating the energy. </p><p>Fossils fuels are weird; very rare, and very powerful. Gallon of the refined stuff send your vehicle along nicely for quite a few miles, and there it is, just suck it out of the ground; thats what so 'great' about the damn stuff, its easy to get. Just take over some land that sits atop some.</p><p>And by rare I mean, yes we will run out, whether it be 100, 1000 years, whatever, it is finite, unless someone picks up a Nobel for synthesizing it, it will eventually be a memory. The Gasoline Age will be a chapter people look back at, an anachronistic smelly nasty greasy oily mess of a way to power what we need to power, cars, and our power plants. In my world inside my head, at least. I dare to wonder whther we will last as long as the oil, but that's another matter entirely.</p><p>=</p><p>Nuclear is good, but fusion makes it look like a joke; but again, the tech isn't there for either, really. Not for autos. One that we have the tech for, but not the motivation, is getting some solar panels up there, get the energy 24/7/365; beam it down to earth via microwave relay, and fossil fuel power plants can be a memory.</p><p>A Manhattan Project/Apollo Program scale project to get this going would do nicely in revolutionizing the world out of the Fossil Fuel age, but again, who's gonna do it?</p><p>And who knows? If a nation/bloc actually Did the above, irony of ironies, we might end up with an energy monopoly of Lex Luthor proportions.</p><p>Wow did I end that weak.</p>
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Dirtybird12
08-05-2005, 03:43 PM
blame wjfk
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TheMojoPin
08-05-2005, 05:34 PM
<p>The Gasoline Age will be a chapter people look back at, an anachronistic smelly nasty greasy oily mess of a way to power what we need to power, cars, and our power plants.</p><p>Just like we look at coal now.</p>
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Alice S. Fuzzybutt
08-05-2005, 07:07 PM
<p>I blame Mojo.</p><p>Actually, we can't complain. Europe pays a lot more for gas than we do.</p>
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high fly
08-07-2005, 02:31 AM
<p>A major reason given is the increased demand by China, whose economy is booming right smartly.</p><p>What the Bushies won't tell you is we are financing a big chunk of that boom, and they aren't going to do anything about it.</p><p> </p><p>Also, what with oil companies reporting record profits, anyone in their right mind think the likes of Bush and Cheney are gonna do anything?</p>
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PapaBear
08-07-2005, 02:36 AM
I blame it on the lower quality of dinosaurs that the U.S. had. America has plenty of oil, but it's of very low quality. If I had a time machine, I'd go back and feed our American dinosaurs some octane booster. That would do the trick!!!
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high fly
08-07-2005, 02:38 AM
<p>Here's something to think about, to date we have dropped over $300 billion down the Iraq tiolet, and will continue to flush another $60 billion per year for that disaster.</p><p>Imagine if we had continued the policy which was working and costing us about a billion per year, and then taken the other $300 billion (plus another $60 billion for the next several years) and put it into research, developement, and subsidies for alternative fuel sources to run our automobiles.</p><p>We'd be free of that miserable corner of the earth, and the Muslims could go back to killing each other instead of us because they don't want us traipsing on their holy land.</p><p> </p>
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Mike from Bklyn
08-07-2005, 04:50 AM
It's nice to hear from Mike the Teacher.<br />
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tbonesteak
08-08-2005, 07:48 AM
<p>The real problem is, what red-blooded, self-respecting, American is going to drive around in this thing.</p><p><img src="http://rds.yahoo.com/S=96062852/K=smart+car/v=2/SID=e/TID=I999_73/l=IVI/SIG=12rfd45n0/EXP=1123602396/*-http%3A//www.alexander108.com/images/Miscellany/Little_Cars/Smart%20Car.JPG" border="0" /></p><p>I'd probably kick my <em>own</em> ass!</p>
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It's not a lack of morals. It's just that I don't care.
kevcala
08-08-2005, 07:56 AM
<p><img width="430" height="240" border="0" src="http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2005/01/30/car_park_wideweb__430x240.jpg" /></p><p> I think head in parking is one of their best features.<br />
</p>
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Mike Teacher
08-08-2005, 11:13 AM
<p><font size="1">It's nice to hear from Mike the Teacher.</font><br /></p><p>=</p><p>He's a wannabe</p>
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BigASSMember
08-08-2005, 11:34 AM
i would have to say it is because of our lack of refineries... we are
producing more oil than ever and it will meet demands but we can not
refine it fast enough<br />
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booster11373
08-08-2005, 11:48 AM
<p>Somebody please explain this to me.</p><p>In the 70's fuel crisis we had price increases and fuel shortages I remeber the long lines and only being able to fill your car on alternate days.</p><p>Today we have skyrocketing prices and demand but no shortages, I have never had to wait to fill my tank, I have never pulled into a station to see a sign saying no gas availible.</p><p>Where are the shortages, It seems like the laws of supply and demand are out of wack here</p>
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Recyclerz
08-08-2005, 01:35 PM
Somebody please explain this to me.In the 70's fuel crisis we had price increases and fuel shortages I remeber the long lines and only being able to fill your car on alternate days. Today we have skyrocketing prices and demand but no shortages, I have never had to wait to fill my tank, I have never pulled into a station to see a sign saying no gas availible. Where are the shortages, It seems like the laws of supply and demand are out of wack here <p> </p><p>OK, I will. But since I don't know how to draw graphs on here I'll have to bore you to tears with words.</p><p>In the '70's the laws of supply & demand were out of wack. Back then, we had supply shocks (the Arabs wouldn't sell us oil cuz we were supporting Israel in the 1973 war) while demand remained constant in the short run. In a free market, less supply with steady demand should push up the price until it hurts and people should start using less. However, in most places there were "anti-gouging" laws that kept the price from rising enough to reduce demand. ( I don't remember if there were federal laws in place as well.) So we had de facto rationing (odd/even days and 1st come/1st serve). This was a failure of the market because of gov't intervention.</p><p>Now, as several others here have correctly noted, prices are going up because demand is going up while supply is pretty steady. We're competeing with China and India for every marginal barrel pumped out of the ground and the supply can't grow fast enough to keep up cuz the oil producers are already pumping all the easily available supply they have. I'm sure everyone is planning to sink an oil well in their back yard at these prices but it will be awhile before that potential supply can be brought to market.</p><p>If you want to feel better about the current situation, think about how it could be worse. If we decide to bomb Iran for restarting their nuke project, they could sinker a tanker or two and drop a bunch of mines in the straights of Hormuz (they have threatened this and I believe they'll do it) preventing all Persian gulf oil from getting to market. Then things will get fun! <img src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/flush.gif" border="0" /></p><p> </p>
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Bulldogcakes
08-08-2005, 04:46 PM
<p> </p><font face="Verdana" style="font-size: 9px;">quote:</font>China is actually one of the biggest culprits. Human rights violations aside, China is <font color="#660000">Quickly <font color="#000000">developing
into a super power economically. Remember all of those bicycles?
Dwindling and being replaced by...you guessed it! Cars! SUVS as well.
So yes, while Americans are greedy energy hogs, the
rest of the world is following suit at a much faster rate. Vive
le democracie!<br />
</font></font><br />
<br />DING DING DING! We have a winner. <p> </p><p>Drill
all you want in Alaska, you Sean Hannity listeners. It wont mean shit.
China and Asia are developing at breathtaking pace, and consuming lots
of goods along with it. Check out what's happened to steel prices in
the past few years, mostly due to the Chinese construction boom. And
considering where they're coming from (one of the lowest per capita
incomes in the world), how big they are in population, and how far they
can go, this could go on for a VERY long time. </p><p> </p><p>And
you know what? Its a good thing. As FM Jeff alluded to, the
technologies are out there. What's stopping us from using them is
simple economics. Gas is still cheaper than those other power sources
(Solar, Hydrogen, etc) But when gas gets more expensive than the
others, watch how fast we shift over. Will only take a few years.
</p>
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<font color=black>This message was edited by Bulldogcakes on 8-8-05 @ 8:52 PM</font>
tbonesteak
08-09-2005, 06:25 AM
<font style="font-size: 9px" face="Verdana">quote: </font><p> </p><p> </p><p>Drill all you want in Alaska, you Sean Hannity listeners. It wont mean shit. China and Asia are developing at breathtaking pace, and consuming lots of goods along with it. <strong>Check out what's happened to steel prices in the past few years, mostly due to the Chinese construction boom.</strong> And considering where they're coming from (one of the lowest per capita incomes in the world), how big they are in population, and how far they can go, this could go on for a VERY long time. </p>It's scary but true. I work in construction and we are in the middle of installing a multi-million dollar structural glass canopy in front of a building. It's a special low-iron glass and the panels are a little over 18 feet long. When we were bidding out the work, we found that it was over a million dollars cheaper to buy the glass from China, ship it across the ocean to California, put it on a truck and drive it to Brooklyn than it would be to buy it from one of the local distributors in Rochester, NY. The same holds true for steel, HVAC equipment, and other expensive materials. That's why American manufacturers just can't compete in today's market.
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It's not a lack of morals. It's just that I don't care.
Knowledged_one
08-09-2005, 06:29 AM
<p>I heard it was these guys....they want to turn all of our oil into Energon Cubes to return to their home planet</p><p><img src="http://www.decepticon-matrix.com/tfgame_ps2/Decepticons.jpg" border="0" /></p>
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high fly
08-09-2005, 03:14 PM
<font style="font-size: 9px" face="Verdana">quote: </font><p>I don't feel the technology is there yet......</p><p>.</p><p>.....A Manhattan Project/Apollo Program scale project to get this going would do nicely in revolutionizing the world out of the Fossil Fuel age, but again, who's gonna do it?</p><p>MiketheTeacher,</p><p>Imagine if we'd pumped over $300 billion into such a program, plus another $60 billion a year for the next several years, which is what this Iraq adventure is costing us (versus $12 billion for 12 years of containing Saddam)</p><p> </p><p>An howzabout we stop selling Alaskan oil to the Japanese?</p><p> </p><p><br /> </p>
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FUNKMAN
08-09-2005, 03:31 PM
<p><strong><font size="1">High oil prices, Whos to blame?</font></strong> </p><p>you are made to believe it's the consumers fault... they just buy too much of it</p>
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WRESTLINGFAN
08-10-2005, 04:45 PM
Oil hit $65 a barrel today, Reports are to lack of refining capacity and a drop of gasoline stocks. Now the fed is saying that prices over $55 are here to stay
O and A... PARTY ROCK!!!!!
Justice4all
08-10-2005, 10:32 PM
<font style="font-size: 9px" face="Verdana">quote: </font><p>I heard it was these guys....they want to turn all of our oil into Energon Cubes to return to their home planet</p><p><img src="http://www.decepticon-matrix.com/tfgame_ps2/Decepticons.jpg" border="0" /></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Bravo sir! That gave me quite a chuckle.</p><br />
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PapaBear
08-10-2005, 10:49 PM
All I can say is, PLEASE remember that pizza delivery guys pay for their own gas, and make close to minimum wage. Sometimes when I deliver, and the customer stiffs me, I actually PAY to bring them their food!
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FUNKMAN
08-11-2005, 05:57 AM
<p><font size="1">Sometimes when I deliver, and the customer stiffs me, I actually PAY to bring them their food! </font></p><p>make sure you jot their address down in a little book, call it the Stiffers List. so the next time you deliver there, they'll be eating your boogers, your last weeks turd, or a fresh batch of jiz (they'll just think the mozz is that much fresher)...</p>
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Mike Teacher
08-11-2005, 06:24 AM
<p>MiketheTeacher,</p><p>Imagine if we'd pumped over $300 billion into such a program, plus another $60 billion a year for the next several years, which is what this Iraq adventure is costing us (versus $12 billion for 12 years of containing Saddam)</p><p>=</p><p>We'd quite possibly re-engineer the planet. I cant even imagine the possibilities, everything I imagine I immediately say, 'we could dwarf even That'.</p><p>Simply, if we got a bunch of Fusion reactors and/or Solar-Microwave relays we would have what the people who first advocated Nuclear Power through fission: unlimited energy, and at a point, unlimited Free Energy. Start-Up costs here will be the highest ever, but with a finite break-even point, and then we might rachet it up such that we have so much excess energy sitting around we start taking chunks of other planets out and start building Earth 2, or a Dyson Sphere, where we literally encase the sun in an energy absorbing spherical 'blanket' the size of the orbit of planets; capturing the majority of the entire Sun's output. </p><p>Then we start engeneering the solar system, then, off to the stars, for real. </p>
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Knowledged_one
08-11-2005, 06:35 AM
<p>I hate to reference any Val Kilmer movie let alone The Saint</p><p>But could the reason why we don't switch to new methods of energy is because our economy and all others are oil dependent and any new form of cheap and abundant energy may throw the world economy out of whack? Basically new forms of energy would put the developed world on par with the undevloped world as they got this free energy that they did not pay any money to help develop. There are alot of hard questions that there are not abundant answers for the switch to new energy. For instance Hydrogen plants that sold fuel for hydrogen powered cars (clean cars) would never work in the US like they do in the Scandanavian countries because of our population densities. Fuel cells are an emerging technology but they over heat way to frequently. I worked on a hybrid chevy trailblazer for west virginias future truck team and we had at least in simulation with regenerative breaking and other hybrid technologies the truck getting 27mpg in the highway but it was very expensive to operate.</p><p>The other problem is that engines are so inefficient with so many moving parts that efficiency is lost through friction during the thermodynamic process that engines undergo. I believe the most efficient engine that can be built will top out at 52 or 58% efficiency ( i can't remember which). This is the reason that the aerospace industry is trying to develop the scramjet technology which has no moving parts to the engine and will be able to make cross country flights in almost 1/3 of the time it takes currently. I think the solution will be making the things that operate on oil more efficient rather then finding an alternative to oil</p>
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TheMojoPin
08-11-2005, 07:12 AM
<p>That still doesn't solve the basic problem of running out of oil eventually.</p><p>Yeah, it may be way down the line, but if we just keep putting off attempts to even start developing alternatives on a massive scale, THEN eventually will become NOW.</p><p>It's like it was said...if we can throw massive budgets behind things like building an A-bomb, or a futile "war on drugs," why can't those same huge sums of money be focused on something that's beneficial for everyone on the planet on a multitude of levels?</p>
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Knowledged_one
08-11-2005, 07:31 AM
<p>Im not saying that we shouldnt be looking for more sources im just going by what i believe is the rationale behind the decisions.</p><p>I for one would be more then happy if we withdrew our funding from the UN and our foreign aid to coutries who don't like us (Venezuela and Egypt to name a couple) and put it towards better uses. I just think there are some things that we want changed that are just to far off in the future to be possible. Like i said about engines efficiency is what efficiency is and you can't do things to go around it. And i would say that the money that has been put into the scramjet is pretty substantial.</p><p>Personally i blame the people who drive the SUV's and vehicles that get only 12 mpg. I understand why people have them but i think they are a huge culprit at least in this country to why things are screwy that and the fact that in MD we pay a 43 cent tax on every gallon of gas because of state taxes freakin crooks</p>
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Recyclerz
08-11-2005, 08:03 AM
<p>But could the reason why we don't switch to new methods of energy is because our economy and all others are oil dependent and any new form of cheap and abundant energy may throw the world economy out of whack?</p><p>Sort of. The biggest obstacle to change, the economic infrastructure that delivers old dinosaurs & plankton to us in the form of gasoline and heating oil, is also one of the primary things that provides our pretty damn good standard of living. Limiting the discussion to gasoline, over the years there has been a ton of investment to ensure that the supply chain can pump petroleum crude out of some fairly godforsaken places and deliver an ample supply of gas to us drivers who, year after year, keep demanding more. Even at the current high prices this is still a pretty neat trick.</p><p>You can't just flip this kind of system overnight. Even if somebody invented an engine that gave you 200HP and 350 miles from a bucket of grape jelly this afternoon, you would still have to replicate the supply chain to be able to deliver the goop to where ever the drivers needed it. That would take a lot of investment and who is going to pay for it? The oil companies could, once they figure out how to make enough money from it; the government could, if the Chinese will lend us the $ to do it. </p><p>This is exactly the kind of investment that an enlightened government of a rich society should make to smooth out the economic shocks for its citizens and to ensure it stays relevant in the global economy while providing benefits to everybody. Of course, based on the energy & highway bills that just passed, our reality doesn't much look like that at all.</p>
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Bulldogcakes
08-11-2005, 02:57 PM
<p> </p><font face="Verdana" style="font-size: 9px;">quote:</font><p> </p><p>Sort
of. The biggest obstacle to change, the economic infrastructure that
delivers old dinosaurs & plankton to us in the form of gasoline and
heating oil, is also one of the primary things that provides our pretty
damn good standard of living. Limiting the discussion to gasoline, over
the years there has been a ton of investment to ensure that the supply
chain can pump petroleum crude out of some fairly godforsaken places
and deliver an ample supply of gas to us drivers who, year after year,
keep demanding more. Even at the current high prices this is still a
pretty neat trick.</p><p>You can't just flip this kind of system
overnight. Even if somebody invented an engine that gave you 200HP and
350 miles from a bucket of grape jelly this afternoon, you would still
have to replicate the supply chain to be able to deliver the goop to
where ever the drivers needed it. That would take a lot of investment
and who is going to pay for it? The oil companies could, once they
figure out how to make enough money from it; the government could, if
the Chinese will lend us the $ to do it. </p><p>This is exactly the
kind of investment that an enlightened government of a rich society
should make to smooth out the economic shocks for its citizens and to
ensure it stays relevant in the global economy while providing benefits
to everybody. Of course, based on the energy & highway bills that
just passed, our reality doesn't much look like that at all.</p><strong />Its
amazing how much you, Mojo, and almost everyone else doesn't seem to
get it on this topic. We dont need the Federal Government to do
ANYTHING. If they want to throw a few tax incentives around to make
themselves feel better fine, but it wont change the basics of this
supply and demand equation. The reality is oil has unnaturally CHEAP
for most of the last 20 years, has only NOW started to catch up with
inflation. A $1.50 gallon of gas in 1985 adjusted for inflation would
be over $3 today. And were still paying about $2.50 and everybody's
bitching about it, like we have some God given right as Americans to
cheap gas. If the Federal Government got involved, it would only make
matters worse. Check out what happened after Nixons "Wage and Price
Controls" of the early 70's and Fords WIN (Whip Inflation Now) of the
mid 70's. We had massive inflation in the late 70's and the deep
recession of 81-82 as the Fed tried to squeeze the inflation out of the
economy with tight monetary policy. So cut the "enlightened government
of a rich society" nonsense. When they get involved in the markets,
they generally fuck things up. And most of our wealth has nothing to do
with Government, but rather entrepreneurship and innovation. And
freedom, which the Government can only restrict, not create. <strong><strong> </strong></strong><p> </p><p>What
needs to be done here is NOTHING. The only thing holding back Solar,
Hydrogen, and more domesticly produced natural and synthetic Oil is
cost. And when the price goes up enough, you'll see more and more
alternatives hit the marketplace. Do you know that SUV sales are
falling and there are waiting lists for many of the new Hybrids? Do you
think Detroit will start making LESS of their hottest new item, or
more? Do you think Detroit needs Washington to make them do this? This
problem will solve itself DESPITE Washington's best efforts. <br />
</p><strong><strong /></strong>
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<p><font size="0" face="verdana" color="black"><strong>What needs to be
done here is NOTHING. The only thing holding back Solar, Hydrogen, and
more domesticly produced natural and synthetic Oil is cost. And when
the price goes up enough, you'll see more and more alternatives hit the
marketplace. Do you know that SUV sales are falling and there are
waiting lists for many of the new Hybrids? Do you think Detroit will
start making LESS of their hottest new item, or more? Do you think
Detroit needs Washington to make them do this? This problem will solve
itself DESPITE Washington's best efforts.</strong></font></p><p>That
is absolutely what we cannot do. The price of oil is going to rise much
faster than the prices of those alternative energy sources is going to
fall. The point of government intervention is to promote research of
either new, cheaper energy sources or improvements to current
alternative sources that would make them economically viable. If we sit
and tiwddle our thumbs and the price of gas shoots up too much without
anything else to replace it as a cheap energy source the world economy
would collapse. Oil and the cheapness of it is so engrained into the
economy that a steep price increase would affect all sectors. If there
is not an energy source or sources that can at least come close to
replacing oil or be close enough to supplement it our very lifestyles
will fundamentally change.</p><p>Just sitting back and hoping that
companies headed by people so rich they don't need to concerned with
the long term and so obssessed with stock prices as to be completely
engrossed with the short term is suicidal.</p><font size="0" face="verdana" color="black"><strong /></font>
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TheMojoPin
08-11-2005, 03:29 PM
BDC, you seem to focusing on the PRICE of gas as the main issue, which is something we've moved beyond in our discussions. Paying $2.50 doesn't bug me. The longterm effects, political, social, environmental and economical, do.
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Bulldogcakes
08-11-2005, 03:32 PM
H-Box, another completely false assumption you and most other people make.
That our economy is based on Oil. And without it, our economy
collapses. Not true. Our economy relies on ENERGY and it makes no
diiference what the source is. And energy costs are only one of many
factors in the price of anything. Have you noticed that inflation has
stayed low despite the rising fuel costs? And it will continue to do so
as long as we keep having rising productivity which can absorb the
increased energy bills. The reality is in most businesses, fuel related
costs are a small part of the expenses pie. Labor is generally the
largest, by far. And the economy is more resilient than you seem to
believe. Most of it is people simply going about their lives, which
will still happen if gas is $2, $5 or $10 a gallon. <br />
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<font color=black>This message was edited by Bulldogcakes on 8-11-05 @ 7:33 PM</font>
Bulldogcakes
08-11-2005, 03:38 PM
<p> </p><font face="Verdana" style="font-size: 9px;">quote:</font>BDC,
you seem to focusing on the PRICE of gas as the main issue, which is
something we've moved beyond in our discussions. Paying $2.50 doesn't
bug me. The longterm effects, political, social, environmental and
economical, do.
<br />And the name of the thread is?<p> </p><p>You
still dont address anything I've said. All of your solutions are "When
will the Feds do something about this" whether it price, environmental
or whatever. And I maintain the best thing they can do let the market
decide, which is to say let the public vote with their wallets and not
have these decisions made by the wise, wise folks in Washington.
</p>
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Do Siamese twins have to file seperate tax returns? Or do they file jointly?
TheMojoPin
08-11-2005, 03:59 PM
<p>The thread evolved.</p><p>And I already answered your post in my previous posts. I'm not talking about the issue of prices per gallon...I'm talking about a concerted and massively funded project to develop a wide-use form of alternate fueling. Like it was already said, what's wrong with having a "Manhattan Expermient"-type of program to develop a better running car? Or a less damaging, finite fuel? You're talking about prices, whereas I'm talking about developing something that needs to EXIST first before you can start pricing it. And who has the best singular resources and, more importantly, cash to get such a thing done, and done quicker? The federal government. The distribution and business can be handled by corporations later...how about we INVENT the damn thing/stuff first?!? Hybrids are a Band-Aid on a head wound, so let's quit making like the answer is already here. It's not.</p>
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<p> </p><font face="Verdana" style="font-size: 9px;">quote:</font><font size="0" face="verdana" color="black">That our economy is based
on Oil. And without it, our economy collapses. Not true. Our economy
relies on ENERGY and it makes no diiference what the source is.</font><p> </p><p>[color=navy]<font size="2">Yes
it does. Nothing is going to change the fact the cars, trucks, and
planes are going to be fueled by oil for the forseeable future. And it
oil prices shoot up, it will affect the economy and our lives in more
ways than I can fathom. If there is not a replacement for or supplement
to oil at the point where oil prices rise dramatically, we are fucked.</font></p><p><font size="2">And
it's not a question of if, but when. It's conceivable that when could
be after we are all dead. Whatever, it's a race against the clock, and
the stakes are too high to do nothing. What is the negative to funding
research?</font><br />
</p><font size="0" face="verdana" color="black">
<img border="0" src="http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/9434/sig3wm.jpg" /></font>
<font color=black>This message was edited by HBox on 8-11-05 @ 8:07 PM</font>
Recyclerz
08-11-2005, 08:54 PM
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2">BDC, usually your posts are pretty well informed and interesting. But in this thread I’m afraid you’ve fallen victim to the latest intellectual craze, made popular by our current Executive branch, of torturing the facts to try to make them fit your theory, when they want to tell a very different story if left to themselves.</font></p><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"> <br /></font></font><strong><font size="+0"><font color="#cc0033" size="1">Its amazing how much you, Mojo, and almost everyone else doesn't seem to get it on this topic. We dont need the Federal Government to do ANYTHING. If they want to throw a few tax incentives around to make themselves feel better fine, but it wont change the basics of this supply and demand equation. The reality is oil has unnaturally CHEAP for most of the last 20 years, has only NOW started to catch up with inflation. A $1.50 gallon of gas in 1985 adjusted for inflation would be over $3 today. And were still paying about $2.50 and everybody's bitching about it, like we have some God given right as Americans to cheap gas. <br /></font></font></strong><font face="Times New Roman"> <br /></font><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2">OK, I’m with you here. The market mechanisms are working as they’re supposed to. And if you drive to work in a Hummer, tough shit</font></p><font face="Times New Roman"> <br /></font><strong><font color="#cc0000" size="1">If the Federal Government got involved, it would only make matters worse. Check out what happened after Nixons "Wage and Price Controls" of the early 70's and Fords WIN (Whip Inflation Now) of the mid 70's. We had massive inflation in the late 70's and the deep recession of 81-82 as the Fed tried to squeeze the inflation out of the economy with tight monetary policy. <br /></font></strong><strong><font size="2"> <br /></font></strong><p><strong><font size="2"><font face="Times New Roman">Again right insofar as it goes. I haven’t seen anybody advocate price controls on gas in this thread, which I think we both agree would be stupid. But you seem to be implying that the inflation of the ‘70’s was caused by the wage & price controls when it was caused by the supply shocks of the oil embargoes and a too loose monetary policy.</font></font></strong></p><strong><font size="2"><font face="Times New Roman" /></font></strong><font size="2"><p><strong><font size="2"><font face="Times New Roman"><strong><font face="Verdana"><font color="#cc0000"><font size="1">So cut the "enlightened government of a rich society" nonsense</font>. </font><font color="#cc0000" size="1">When they get involved in the markets, they generally fuck things up. <br /></font></font></strong><strong><font face="Verdana"> <br /></font></strong><strong>OK you just contradicted yourself. It was government policy (the Federal Reserve under Paul Volcker) that killed inflation. I’m assuming you’re assuming that was a good thing, because it was, even if painful to endure.<br /></strong><strong><font face="Verdana"> <br /></font></strong><strong><font face="Verdana"><font color="#cc0000" size="1">And most of our wealth has nothing to do with Government, but rather entrepreneurship and innovation. <br /></font></font></strong> <br />Now you’re just singing from the neo-Republican hymnal without thinking. The wealth this country enjoys today was created, <strong>at virtually every step</strong>, by a combination of entrepeneurship, innovation <strong>and </strong>government policy that either actively initiates or passively encourages the generation of wealth. Examples? The industrial base of this country in the Notheast and Midwest only survives its birth (late 1700’s to early 1800’s) with the help of proective tariffs set up by the Federal Government. Erie Canal – creating and linking markets? Government-business partnership
Recyclerz
08-11-2005, 09:17 PM
<font style="font-size: 9px" face="Verdana">quote: </font><font color="#cc0000"><font size="1">H-Box, another completely false assumption you and most other people make. That our economy is based on Oil. And without it, our economy collapses. Not true. Our economy relies on ENERGY and it makes no diiference what the source is.</font>[/</font>QUOTE] <p> </p><p>Wrong. All energy sources are not fungible in the short term. We cannot run this country's transportation system, which is primarily trucking and airplanes, without derivatives of oil and we won't be able to change in the forseeable future, even with gov't subsidies. You can generate electricity in various ways but you still need to build additional capital plants to do so.</p><p><font color="#cc0000">All of your solutions are "When will the Feds do something about this" whether it price, environmental or whatever. And I maintain the best thing they can do let the market decide, which is to say let the public vote with their wallets and not have these decisions made by the wise, wise folks in Washington.</font> </p><p><br />The government shouldn’t micromanage the economy, we agree. The government should do basic research that will help develop new markets, especially in critical areas like energy, that can later be effectively exploited by private industry.<br />If you really believe markets, left to themselves, ALWAYS produce optimal results then your economics textbook was printed in the 1920’s or you’ve been dipping into Rush’s stash of oxycontin or Larry Kudlow’s yayo powder.</p><p><br /><img src="http://www.hometown.aol.com/recyclerz/myhomepage/sigpic1.gif?mtbrand=AOL_US" border="0" /> </p><p><strong>There ain't no asylum here. King Solomon, he never lived 'round here</strong></p>
<font color=black>This message was edited by Recyclerz on 8-12-05 @ 1:17 AM</font>
monsterone
08-11-2005, 10:01 PM
<p>i drive a german import, so it sucks spending $35 to fill the tank, but it can get me 400 miles hw. so fuck you faggots w/ your suvs; how ironic you have a bicycle on your roof rack. i remeber 6 yrs ago when regular dipped under a dollar.</p><p>so let me <em>reiterate,</em> suv drivers pretty much show we don't have a big problem. remember those dogshit cars of the 70's?</p>
<center><img border=1 src= "http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v53/monster6sixty6/sig270.jpg" /><br></center>
<center>
<font color="red" size="1">violent thoughts & prayers</font>
</center>
<font color= "red" size="6">
Bulldogcakes
08-12-2005, 03:18 AM
<font size="1" face="verdana" color="black">
<!-- includes/messagecopy2.cfm -->
</font>
<p><font size="1" face="verdana" color="black"><font size="2" face="Times New Roman">BDC,
usually your posts are pretty well informed and interesting. But in
this thread I’m afraid you’ve fallen victim to the latest intellectual
craze, made popular by our current Executive branch, of torturing the
facts to try to make them fit your theory, when they want to tell a
very different story if left to themselves.</font></font></p>
<p>Well, thank you and likewise on the first part. As to the
"intellectual craze" stuff, these ideas go back to Adam Smith and even
further, so its nothing new. And ideas that hang around that long are
worth checking out, because history keeps proving them right. </p>
<p><font size="1" face="verdana" color="black"><font size="2"><font size="2"><strong><font size="2"><font face="Times New Roman"><strong>OK
you just contradicted yourself. It was government policy (the Federal
Reserve under Paul Volcker) that killed inflation. I’m assuming you’re
assuming that was a good thing, because it was, even if painful to
endure.</strong></font></font></strong></font></font></font></p>
<p>The Federal Reserve is designed to be an independent, private entity
with Government oversight. Its not part of the Government. Again,
amazing how many people dont know this. And Fed watchers on Wall Street
always get their asses up whenever any politician tries to influence
their monetary policy, for good reason. </p>
<p><font size="1" face="verdana" color="black"><font size="2"><font size="2"><strong><font size="2"><font face="Times New Roman">The wealth this country enjoys today was created, <strong>at virtually every step</strong>, by a combination of entrepeneurship, innovation <strong>and </strong>government
policy that either actively initiates or passively encourages the
generation of wealth. Examples? The industrial base of this country
in the Notheast and Midwest only survives its birth (late 1700’s to
early 1800’s) with the help of proective tariffs set up by the Federal
Government. Erie Canal – creating and linking markets?
Government-business partnership. Settling the frontier? Active
government policy. Building the railroads? Government soliciting
European capital to build our infrastructure. Highway systems?
Airports? Creating a middle class ? Post WW2 GI bill</font></font></strong></font></font></font></p>
<p>And protective tartriffs are a bad idea because they give business a
crutch to lean on, provided by the Feds, rather than competeing in the
marketplace as they should. Thats Big Business and Big Governmnet in
bed with each other, which I thought most on the Left oppose. (BTW I'm
not a Bush Republican. I've disagreed with most of his policies for
this very reason) The Erie Canal was privately funded by banks, in one
of the last big infrastructure projects to be done so. It needed a few
laws passed by the state to be built, but the Governor repeatedly
opposed funding the project. Thats an example of Government getting out
of the way of private development, not partnering with it. Railroads,
highways, Airports all involve interstate commerce, which has to
involve the Feds for obvious reasons. And BTW if you think highways and
rail lines automatically create wealth , check out Japans economy for
the past 10-15 years. They've had lots of public spending on big
infrastructure progects and a stagnant economy. <br />
</p>
<p>[quote]<font size="1" face="verdana" color="black"><font size="2"><font size="2"><strong><font size="2"><font face="Times New Roman"><strong>That
is the spot for government intervention, in order to prevent market
imbalances that could easily lead to a recession/depression. And, if
you remember the `1970’s correctly, you’ll recall that Detroit
JerryTaker
08-12-2005, 05:49 AM
<p><font size="0" face="verdana" color="black">The problem was their
product sucked, not that they needed tax $ to keep running a failing
business. As to their current state, that has alot to do with the
mergers they done recently, and they can go dig THEMSELVES out of the
problem they've created. Or go out of business for all I care. And if
they do go out of business, I'm sure their competitors will be hiring. <br /></font><font size="0" face="verdana" color="black"> </font><br />
</p><p> Yeah, that's exactly what happened in the tech sector....<br />
</p>
<br><B>
Sweet Queen Bee, I hope it comes quickly,
I hope your thoughts don't drift to me
I'll die in here, you now are free...
</B>
<p> </p><font face="Verdana" style="font-size: 9px;">quote:</font><font size="0" face="verdana" color="black">The Federal
Reserve is designed to be an independent, private entity with
Government oversight. Its not part of the Government.</font> <br />
<p> </p><p><a target="_blank" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_reserve">Here.</a> </p><p> </p><font face="Verdana" style="font-size: 9px;">quote:</font>The Federal Reserve System is an independent entity within the
government. <strong>It is a part of the government, subject to laws such as the
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Information_Act" title="Freedom of Information Act">Freedom of Information Act</a> and the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Privacy_Act&action=edit" title="Privacy Act">Privacy Act</a> which cover Federal agencies, not private entities.</strong> However, its decisions do not have to be ratified by the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_United_States" title="President of the United States">President</a> or anyone else in the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive" title="Executive">executive</a> or <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative" title="Legislative">legislative</a>
branches of government, it does not receive funding appropriated by the
Congress, and the terms of the members of the Board of Governors span
multiple presidential and congressional terms. Once a member of the
Board of Governors is appointed by the president, he or she can be as
independent as a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Supreme_Court" title="U.S. Supreme Court">U.S. Supreme Court</a> judge, though the term is shorter.<p> </p><p><font color="Navy">[size=2]I get your point, but you are overstating it a bit.</font> </p>
<img border="0" src="http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/9434/sig3wm.jpg" />
<font color=black>This message was edited by HBox on 8-12-05 @ 10:03 AM</font>
Yerdaddy
08-12-2005, 10:15 AM
<p><a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8769619/site/newsweek/" target="_blank">Hydrogen isn't nearly the only game in town when it comes to alternatives.</a></p><p>It's been a fact of life since oil started fueling more cars than lamps in America that the government is a major player in energy markets, otherwise why did we need an <a href="http://www.agweekly.com/articles/2005/08/11/news/ag_news/news06.txt" target="_blank">Energy Bill</a> that seems to give just as much subsidies for oil and gas companies as it does to alternative fuels production and development? (Note the all-time record profits for oil companies and the quote from the energy secretary shedding crocodile tears over the unnecessary subsidies - just before the president happily signs the bill.) The fact is that the oil and auto companies dominate the Fortune 500 top 10 list, and in America that means they get to write their own legislation. And the government is deeply entrenched in these industries and always will be. It's too easy to over- or understate the government's ability to make decisions that have a deep impact on our daily lives. This Energy Bill had no chance of bringing down short-term oil prices because, as seems to be the final consensus, they're mostly driven by increased consumption by India, China, and the rest of the world as it progresses with developed modeled on our own oil-addicted system. But, we should be asking ourselves: What the fuck do these oil companies need with subsidies at all? They won the fucking lottery and they government just gave them a tax break for it! In other words: business as usual.</p><p>I think that, given what we now know about both the national security implications of our oil addiction and global warming, (well, some of us are), it is in the US interests to subsidize alternative fuels INSTEAD of subsidizing perfectly healthy companies in exchange for the monsterous campaign contributions doled out to both parties. Free markets are the prime movers of the technologies, (that haven't been purchased and rat-holed by oil companies that don't want to compete with them, and don't want to invest in developing them when live is sweet as the oil dealers to us junkies), but free markets are also a myth in modern economics. Governments are major players, like it or not. They just tend to play for which ever team pays the best salaries.</p><p>While I'm trashing oil companies with my glib generalizations, note in the Newsweek piece that there are some that are leading the way with alternative fuels. But also note which ones aren't.<br /></p>
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Fuck it from behind.
Ethanol certianly isn't a solution. It takes more
energy to produce ethanol than it the energy that ethanol
creates.<br />
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DeltaPin
08-12-2005, 11:01 AM
<p>People seemed to be concerned about rising gasoline prices prices, but oil and other petroleum products are also a major material resource for much of the consumer goods we buy today. Plastics are petroleum based so rising oil prices not only effect transportation costs, but costs for many goods in general. As global demand increases, much to China & India to help fuel our own gluttonous need for cheap goods at Wal-Mart, more ramifications of our oil dependency will be realized. Investing in alternative fuel sources is critical, but it is only the first of many steps.</p><p>Back on global demand, for years I have been travelling to China for business, and it is really amazing how much development is going on. Tons of construction projects can be seen in all major cities, and as noted by others here, were once were bicycles, now the streets are clogged with automotive traffic. As China grows you can also see that the government has little concern over the ramifications it is causing, primarily environmental. On case in point is the whole damming of the Yangtse river/Three Gorges project, the more you read about this the more horrified you become.</p><p><a href="http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/InNews/yangtze2004.html">http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/InNews/yangtze2004.html</a></p>
Bulldogcakes
08-12-2005, 03:03 PM
<font face="Verdana" style="font-size: 9px;"><br />
</font><p> </p><p><font color="Navy"><font size="2">I get your point, but you are overstating it a bit.</font> </font></p>
<font color="Navy"><font color="black" /></font><font color="Navy"><font color="Navy"><font color="Navy"><br />Yeah,
I know. Its one of those hybrids. And if you know the history of it, it
was designed to be a very independant institution. I think people
confuse the Fed with the Treasury, which play very different
roles. And I could have
been clearer, but I try to keep my posts at about 1/2 of Yerdaddy's
legnth as a rule of thumb.<img border="0" src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/wink.gif" /> <br />
</font>
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Do Siamese twins have to file seperate tax returns? Or do they file jointly?</font>
<font color="black" /></font>
<font color=black>This message was edited by Bulldogcakes on 8-12-05 @ 7:10 PM</font>
Yerdaddy
08-14-2005, 01:18 AM
<p><font color="#000080" size="1">about 1/2 of Yerdaddy's legnth as a rule of thumb.</font></p><p>That's still a <font size="4"><strong>BIG</strong></font> thumb!</p>
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Fuck it from behind.
Slappy
08-14-2005, 06:31 AM
<div>One of the most ironic things is that back when horses were the #1 mode of transport in cities, petroleum based vehicles were seen as the solution to the massive pollution problem (that being basically horse poop, which was everywhere and the city stank of it). </div><div><div>The problem with nuclear energy is not with the technology itself, which theoretically is very sound, but with the fact that energy companies constantly espouse the absolute minimal security and safety precautions they can get away with, not realizing of course, that God forbid something were to happen, accidental or otherwise, you;d be talking about the deaths of potentially hundreds of thousands of people, all because O&R didn't feel like spending an extra 10 thou on updating the piping to the primary coolant chamber.</div><div><div>Ultimately, too many people are making GOBS of money to care about preemptively preparing for the end of oil, or, even less likely, actually seriously investing in alternate fuel sources. In fact, even to this day, among many conservatives, the very idea of alternate fuel is still one met with derision and ridicule, instead of being looked on as simply a function of economics, ie. the economics of being dependent on a fuel source which is finite and, theoretically, will only get MORE expensive as the supply runs out and the demand increases, and, which causes wars, the ultimate and inevitable solution to any extreme demand-side resource.</div><div><div>Eventually, it looks like hyrdrogen fuel cells, which is in its very infancy as a technology, may be the front runner, but no one, no convservative, has ever been able to explain why solar energy can;t be utilized in some way. At least Wal-Mart thinks so.</div></div></div></div>
Bulldogcakes
08-14-2005, 01:13 PM
<font face="Verdana" style="font-size: 9px;">quote:</font><p> </p><font face="Verdana" style="font-size: 9px;">quote:</font><font size="1" color="#000080">about 1/2 of Yerdaddy's legnth as a rule of thumb.</font><p> </p><p>That's still a <font size="4"><strong>BIG</strong></font> thumb!</p>
Yerdaddy's shortest post ever! I should win a prize or something!<img border="0" src="http://www.ronfez.net/messageboard/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/clap.gif" />
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Do Siamese twins have to file seperate tax returns? Or do they file jointly?
<font color=black>This message was edited by Bulldogcakes on 8-14-05 @ 5:14 PM</font>
Justice4all
08-15-2005, 03:38 AM
<p>And while all this discussing is going on, gas prices jumped up to 2.45 for regular around the corner from me.</p><p>I think instead of trying to see who is the blame why not try to come up with a way to defeat this. This is getting REDICULOUS! Oh yea, they said oil is going up to $75 a barrell now.</p>
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Bulldogcakes
08-18-2005, 04:25 PM
Goldman
Sachs see high Oil prices for rest of decade (http://news.ft.com/cms/s/f0533230-100e-11da-bd5c-00000e2511c8.html)<br />
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WRESTLINGFAN
08-20-2005, 05:13 AM
<p>Why arent we using our strategic oil reserves? Wasnt this set up after the embargo in the 70s? </p>
O and A... PARTY ROCK!!!!!
mdr55
08-20-2005, 05:28 AM
Look on the bright side. At least we don't live in California.<br />
mdr55
08-20-2005, 05:32 AM
You'll probably need a second job to fill up your tank, just to go to work.<br />
The Jays
08-20-2005, 08:39 AM
<p>Well, what if, instead of having to spend so much money on gas
because our jobs and stores and such are so spread out, why not start
to plan our towns, cities, and neighborhoods to be less dependnat on
automobiles? </p><p> </p><p>People's desire for suburbia certainly doesn't help this situation. </p>
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TheMojoPin
08-20-2005, 09:18 AM
<font style="font-size: 9px" face="Verdana">quote: </font><p>Why arent we using our strategic oil reserves? Wasnt this set up after the embargo in the 70s? </p>O and A... PARTY ROCK!!!!! Because contrary to what some people think, this isn't an emergency. Or even remotely close to being one.<br />
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Bulldogcakes
08-20-2005, 01:24 PM
<p> </p><font face="Verdana" style="font-size: 9px;">quote:</font><p>Why arent we using our strategic oil reserves? Wasnt this set up after the embargo in the 70s? </p>And
the last time I checked, that's about enough oil for one month in this
country. It's literally a drop in the bucket, and any effect you could
have would be small and temporary. Anytime you hear a politician bring
up the S.O.R., he's either an economic moron or he's bullshitting you.
And guess what? Most of them aren't morons, which kinda narrows it down
a bit. <p> </p><p>This is all about market forces, folks. And we
could pass all the laws we want, it wont stop the Chinese from buying
all they can get their hands on. </p><p>How about getting the
States/Feds/Localities to drop their taxes on gas? THAT would drop the
price about <font size="4"><strong>60</strong></font> cents a gallon overnight for us New Yorkers. </p><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_tax" target="blank">Link</a> </p><p> </p><font face="Verdana" style="font-size: 9px;">quote:</font> The U.S. federal gasoline tax <a title="As of 2005" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_of_2005">as of 2005</a> was 18.4 cents per U.S. <a title="Gallon" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallon">gallon</a>
(4.86 ¢/L), and the gasoline taxes in the various states range from 10
cents to 33 cents, averaging about 22 cents per U.S. gallon (5.8 ¢/L).
Unlike most goods in the US, the price displayed includes all taxes,
rather than being calculated at the point of purchase. <p> </p><p>Us
idiot New Yorkers, of course,
<a href="http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/198564p-171471c.html" target="blank">pay
the highest gas taxes </a>in the nation. </p>
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is white, and Germany doesn't want to go to war"-Charles Barkley
<font color="black" />
<font color=black>This message was edited by Bulldogcakes on 8-20-05 @ 5:26 PM</font>
FUNKMAN
08-20-2005, 03:49 PM
when all is said and done isn't it really securing continuous increases in 'profit margins' for the oil companies that are the ultimate/key factor in the cost? Including the oil field owners continued increase in wealth. if prices remained comparative to the lows that they were approx 2 years ago they would still have made good profits, especially with the increase in usage.
<img src="http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0UQCRAl4WyHLYmr7dmRaNq9LkFDSutySVXtZT!2DBFo9cdLLOy T0wW*F93FRtcPlf*xMPhVXRGqhe6SJySdgLcTKyu!jrvKbU!du NFBLOnRJxEbhL0qxR9qln3GX9xzMO/FUNKMAN.JPG?dc=4675521713262985004">
Stewie
08-20-2005, 04:24 PM
well let me start by saying the gas prices now are INSANE, BUT, I am wondering about inflation. Have gas prices and increases been in line with inflation over the past twenty years or is it just catching up for it? Is oil even effected by infaltion? These are just questions that I have. I'm trying to rationalize having to spend so damn much to fill the tank. I'm too lazy to ride my bicycle 35 miles each way to and from my job. BUT when all else fails do as they do in SouthPark. BLAME CANADA
Fantom33
08-24-2005, 04:09 PM
<p> </p><p> LOts of factors. THe first factor I would consider is OPEC since they can createe artificial shortages.</p><p>As for solar power, it is not environmentally friendly because they are made from petroleum to a certain extent.</p>
WRESTLINGFAN
08-28-2005, 11:38 AM
With Hurricane Katrina to cause major damage, traders are going to jack up prices even more. There are many offshore oil platforms and refineries in that area, we are going to see 70 dollar a barrel oil no doubt
O and A... PARTY ROCK!!!!!
Bulldogcakes
08-28-2005, 03:59 PM
<p></p><p align="left"> <font size="2" face="arial"><strong><span style="font-size: 12px;">U.S. crude oil futures surged more
than $4 in opening trade on Monday, hitting a new record high
above $70 a barrel after Hurricane Katrina forced Gulf of
Mexico producers to shut in more than a third of their output.
</span><br /><br />
</strong>
<span style="font-size: 12px;">
Katrina, which strengthened into a rare, maximum power
Category 5 hurricane as it spun through key oil and gas fields
toward New Orleans, shut in a total 633,000 barrels per day
(bpd), according to company figures on Sunday.
</span><br /><br />
<span style="font-size: 12px;">
It also forced the closure of seven refineries and a major
U.S. crude import terminal.
</span></font></p><p>Just what we needed, huh? </p>
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WRESTLINGFAN
09-06-2005, 05:24 PM
Exxon Mobil CEO Lee Raymond made 38 million last year, last quarter alone Exxon Mobils earnings were over 30 billion dollars, and he doesnt have the balls to come on any of the cable news shows or business news shows and try to justify any of this
O and A... PARTY ROCK!!!!!
WRESTLINGFAN
10-27-2005, 04:28 PM
Exxon Mobil just posted their profits for the 3rd quarter. 10 FUCKING BILLION DOLLARS!!!!!
<font color=black>This message was edited by WRESTLINGFAN on 10-27-05 @ 8:29 PM</font>
Bulldogcakes
10-27-2005, 04:51 PM
<p>So what? Of course they'll make more money if the price goes up. If
they have a 5% profit margin, 5% of $3 a gallon is more than 5% of $2.
And so what? What makes you think you're entitled to cheap gas? It a
commodity like any other. Supply and Demand. Do you think these
companies will stay in business if they cant make a profit? The price
of oil is set on the WORLD market. If these companies cant raise their
prices at times of emergency (as some politicians have suggested) when
the world market raises the price per barrel, they will lose money. NO
business exists to lose money. If it costs me more to produce my
product than sell it, I simply wont make it anymore. THEN see what it
costs. <br />
</p><p>And what about when they were losing their shirts in the early
90's, and you were enjoying $1.25 a gallon. I didn't see anyone
pass a cup to help them then. Its called a free market. Sometimes you
make alot, sometimes you lose alot. And despite minor complaints it
works better than anything else. </p><p>BTW-$3 a gallon gas is <em>maybe </em>an
extra $5 a week for most people, and it was caused by a natural
disaster. I feel alot worse for the people who lost their
homes/businesses/family members than some guy whining about high
gas prices. And already I'm seeing it come down to $2.69 this week.
</p>
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TheMojoPin
10-27-2005, 08:53 PM
Just filled up for $2.39 a gallon tonight, and it felt great! THANKS, APATHY!
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FUNKMAN
10-27-2005, 09:22 PM
<p>i saw today that over 2,000 companies had their hands in the Food For Oil money, a bunch from the US. i got so fucking steamed i could have shit an oil tanker out of my ass sideways...</p><p>these mother fucking corporate executives. sure there's a few good one's but most would fuck anybody below them til their asshole fell off</p>
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PapaBear
10-27-2005, 09:35 PM
I saw that too, Funkman. <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051028/ts_nm/iraq_probe_dc" target="_self">OIL FOR FOOD KICKBACKS</a> . I'd like to see a complete list of the companies, but I can say I won't be buying a Chryster any time soon.
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Se7en
10-27-2005, 09:40 PM
<p>What do you really expect, when the U.N. officials running the program were more corrupt than anyone else involved? </p><p>Bulldogcakes makes some good points, but ultimately it all comes down to the fact that oil companies ARE gouging the shit out of everyone, and there really isn't an excuse for that. There's a difference between charging enough for your product to make a nice profit, and raping the consumers up the ass just because you know they can't do without it.</p>
Wait until you people get your first heating bill this winter. This thread will seem cute.<br />
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WRESTLINGFAN
10-28-2005, 02:34 PM
<font style="font-size: 9px" face="Verdana">quote: </font><p>So what? Of course they'll make more money if the price goes up. If they have a 5% profit margin, 5% of $3 a gallon is more than 5% of $2. And so what? What makes you think you're entitled to cheap gas? It a commodity like any other. Supply and Demand. Do you think these companies will stay in business if they cant make a profit? The price of oil is set on the WORLD market. If these companies cant raise their prices at times of emergency (as some politicians have suggested) when the world market raises the price per barrel, they will lose money. NO business exists to lose money. If it costs me more to produce my product than sell it, I simply wont make it anymore. THEN see what it costs. <br /></p><p>And what about when they were losing their shirts in the early 90's, and you were enjoying $1.25 a gallon. I didn't see anyone pass a cup to help them then. Its called a free market. Sometimes you make alot, sometimes you lose alot. And despite minor complaints it works better than anything else. </p><p>BTW-$3 a gallon gas is <em>maybe </em>an extra $5 a week for most people, and it was caused by a natural disaster. I feel alot worse for the people who lost their homes/businesses/family members than some guy whining about high gas prices. And already I'm seeing it come down to $2.69 this week. </p><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~bob80/RFnetBulldogcakes3.jpg" border="0" /> <a href="http://bulldogcakes.tripod.com/index.html" target="blank">My site Bully Baby</a> "A dog recently saved his owner's life, because he had been trained to dial 911. Unfortunately, operators had trouble finding the address 'woof, woof.'"-Norm MacDonald You are right about the whole supply/demand issue. But the oil companies should take fault for building so many refineries in hurricane prone areas. Most if not all were built before environmental standards.
O and A... PARTY ROCK!!!!!
Bulldogcakes
10-28-2005, 04:29 PM
<p>Its my understanding that they haven't built any new refineries in the past 20 years, for a host of reasons. </p><p>1-It's not a very profitable business<br />
</p><p>2-Evironmental regulations make it very difficult to get a permit<br />
</p><p>3-Nobody wants one in their backyard </p><p> </p><p>A
sensible step Wahington could take to improve supply would be to allow
existing refineries to add significant capacity, like 25-50%
each. </p><p>Makes too much sense, you'll never see it happen. </p>
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WRESTLINGFAN
10-28-2005, 06:48 PM
<p>The last refinery was buils in 1976. I know the DoD closed alot of bases in the early and mid 90's perhaps some refineries can be built on those closed bases if there has not been any development on them</p>
O and A... PARTY ROCK!!!!!
Considering how long it would take to get a
refinery built and other factors like increased demand in places like
India and China and possible supply shortfalls in the future, I wonder
how useful any new refineries would be by the time they are
built.<br />
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/7449/georgesig0mm.jpg
Bulldogcakes
10-28-2005, 07:10 PM
<p>Any intelligently run business should have AT LEAST 10% excess
capacity. The refineries were running at 98%. Which is both stupid and
ridiculous. Which is also to say, Washington had a hand in it, because
no smart businessman would operate like that. And one storm later
there's 1970's style gas lines, huge price increases. </p><p>H, you're not actually arguing we do nothing, are you? Not after the past two months. <br />
</p>
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"A dog recently saved his owner's life, because he had been trained to dial 911. Unfortunately, operators had trouble finding the address 'woof, woof.'"-Norm MacDonald
<p>I'm just not sure doing this will make a
difference. Will we create excess refining capacity that we don't need
because there just isn't enough oil to refine? That just applies to new
refineries, and I say that only because the times I've heard it will
take to get new refineries up and running is incredible. The quickest
and most effective way to help would be expanding existing refineries
capacity as you said. That certainly seems worth doing.</p><p>What I
really want is to throw some more money into hydrogen research and hope
that some breakthroughs come a bit sooner. Hopefully we can make the
day when hydrogen can be created mostly with renewable energy sources,
and suitable to be used in vehicles come sooner.<br />
</p>
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/7449/georgesig0mm.jpg
PapaBear
10-28-2005, 09:48 PM
Gas just dropped to $2.19 here tonight. I can't help but wonder if they're lulling us until the big and final mega hike.
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<center>1 people are so scared of 9 people</center><center>WHATSOEVER...</center>
TheMojoPin
10-29-2005, 07:41 AM
<p>"Final?"</p><p>Do they kill you after you fill your tank?</p>
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Bulldogcakes
10-29-2005, 04:08 PM
<p>"Final" is when it costs so much you cant pay the attendant, then he shows his fangs and sucks the blood right out of you.</p><p><img width="275" height="309" border="0" src="http://www.hauntedfog.com/images/Foothills/neriusTaraIndexA.jpg" /> </p><p>Then you become a gas attendant. </p>
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