Seriously, help me understand this [Archive]

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JerryTaker

06-07-2005, 09:48 AM

OK, so GM is cutting 25,000 more jobs, and closing more plants.
<a href="http://www.reuters.ca/locales/c_newsArticle.jsp?type=businessNews&localeKey=en_CA&storyID=8721192">
Read all about it</a>Couple of things that really bother me here: quote:Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner, speaking at the annual meeting, also
said GM expects to save $2.5 billion a year from the cost-cutting
measures. ok, aren't we spending a couple of HUNDRED BILLION
a year on Iraq? why don't we do what we did during WWII and commision
GM to build millitary hardware for the war effort, throw them three
billion or so a year, and they don't have to cut those jobs?maybe it's because of this... quote:Investors welcomed the news, sending GM shares up 2 percent. Michael
Bee, lead equity strategist at Boyd Watterson Asset Management LLC,
said U.S. automakers will continue to ship jobs overseas. "The cost of a GM worker in China is about 10 percent the cost of a
U.S. worker ... You just really can't compete with some of these
foreign producers," Bee said. This
is insane to me, Why destroy 25,000 American families, probably
teetering on the poverty line as is, so that these fat-cat investors
can see a 2% increase on thier stock? plus moving more manufacturing
jobs and american money to Communist China?What happened to American pride? Did we simply sell it? 

 
Sweet Queen Bee, I hope it comes quickly,
I hope your thoughts don't drift to me
I'll die in here, you now are free...




This message was edited by JerryTaker on 6-7-05 @ 1:50 PM

Knowledged_one

06-07-2005, 10:09 AM

Quick answer:  GM can't just take over government contracts they run a long long time.  For instance the JSF is a 20 year 20 billion dollar contract.I agree moving jobs overseas way bad for the US, i mean really isn't our dollar weak enough against all other foreign currency.And the same thing is happening with tech jobs being farmed out to India.The real solution is for the US to start collection on all outstanding foreign debt - I am looking at you S. America

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SatCam

06-07-2005, 10:23 AM

plus moving more manufacturing jobs and american money to Communist China?You're right... it sucks to see some businesses supporting communist china (even though the government does it too).  However, most of the people who work in the Chinese plants are just as entitled to jobs.  Hey, they're people too, right?

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JerryTaker

06-07-2005, 10:32 AM

quote:GM can't just take over
government contracts they run a long long time. For instance the JSF
is a 20 year 20 billion dollar contract.  Isn't
that a failing of the system? During a time of war, can't these things
take a backseat for the bigger picture than a lot of beurocratic red
tape? We're asking our soldiers and thier families to sacrifice, why
not businesses or the government? doesn't it affect us all? most of the people who work in the Chinese plants are just as entitled to jobs.  Hey, they're people too, right?Doesn't
Communism by definition put the responsibility on the government to
provide jobs? They work for slave wages as is, why are American Companies supporting the Communist Dictatorship at the expense of American Families? 


 
Sweet Queen Bee, I hope it comes quickly,
I hope your thoughts don't drift to me
I'll die in here, you now are free...


This message was edited by JerryTaker on 6-7-05 @ 2:35 PM

HBox

06-07-2005, 10:45 AM

The real solution is for the US to start collection on all outstanding foreign debt - I am looking at you S. AmericaUnless China, Japan and South Korea do the same thing. 

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Knowledged_one

06-07-2005, 11:04 AM

And the reason they can't just switch contracts - because of government.You would see real bi-partisanship if contracts were given to Michigan while money was taken from other states.  The only time democrats and republicans work together is when money gets taken from their home state to go somewhere else...........is it fair? No.  Does it happen?  All the time.Also if Japan and the rest want to collect also good for them.  Why should my dollar mean nothing when we are owed money by a ton of other countries and i am not talking about foreign aid money either

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Recyclerz

06-07-2005, 12:20 PM

GM has two main problems: 1.  Not enough Americans want to buy their cars/trucks so their market share is declining; 2. Over the years,  they have offered a high level of benefits to their employees which is now coming back to "haunt" them because of the high cost of American health care (vs. the relatively lower costs borne by their main competitors in Japan & Korea and soon China).  Ford is in the same sinking boat.  Long term there isn't much to be done to keep these kinds of jobs in America - if a worker in China, India, Mexico or wherever can deliver 85-90% of the productivity of an American worker for 10-20% of the cost,  there is no way that the jobs won't move. It is just a question of whether the decision is made by an American or Asian manager.  There isn't much the government can do; it doesn't make economic sense for the government to subsidize GM union jobs (@ roughly $100K/yr incl. benefits) with tax money that's being taken from people working at Wal-Mart earning $8/hour or from education programs, etc.   Short term, the government can help by nationalizing health care but I doubt that's going to happen.  <span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'times new roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'times new roman'; mso-ansi-language: en-us; mso-fareast-language: en-us; mso-bidi-language: ar-sa">This country is facing a boatload of these kinds of problems coming due in the near future (Medicare, pension funding, long term decline of the dollar, et al.).  Rather than face up to them and trying to find the least objectionable solution for everybody (as I would argue the Clinton team was doing) we are now looking at the ruling class stuffing their pockets as full and as fast as possible before the shit hits the fan.<span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'times new roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'times new roman'; mso-ansi-language: en-us; mso-fareast-language: en-us; mso-bidi-language: ar-sa"><img src="http://www.hometown.aol.com/recyclerz/myhomepage/sigpic1.gif?mtbrand=AOL_US" border="0" /> There ain't no asylum here. King Solomon, he never lived 'round here

This message was edited by Recyclerz on 6-7-05 @ 4:21 PM

HBox

06-07-2005, 12:25 PM

Also if Japan and the rest
want to collect also good for them.  Why should my dollar mean nothing
when we are owed money by a ton of other countries and i am not talking
about foreign aid money eitherDo
you have any idea what would happen if they did that? A little while
ago a South Korean finance minister said something that just suggested
that in the future South Korea might buy less of our treasury bonds.
Not stop, not collect on old bonds, but just buy less. And the stock
market went down for a week straight. 


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JerryTaker

06-07-2005, 01:27 PM

This
country is facing a boatload of these kinds of problems coming due in
the near future (Medicare, pension funding, long term decline of the
dollar, et al.).  Rather than face up to them and trying to find the
least objectionable solution for everybody (as I would argue the
Clinton team was doing) we are now looking at the ruling class stuffing
their pockets as full and as fast as possible before the shit hits the
fan. So
is it simply a matter of Price-gouging by pharmecuticals, utility
companies, and real estate owners? If they have raised the standard of
living in America to the point that those same companies don't want to
pay the average American a decent living wage, shouldn't the whole
system be on the verge of collapse? what happens then? 

 
Sweet Queen Bee, I hope it comes quickly,
I hope your thoughts don't drift to me
I'll die in here, you now are free...

pOOpsHIp

06-07-2005, 06:23 PM

Quote:This is insane to me, Why destroy 25,000 American families, probably teetering on the poverty line as is, so that these fat-cat investors can see a 2% increase on thier stock? plus moving more manufacturing jobs and american money to Communist China?What happened to American pride? Did we simply sell it? Keep shopping at Wal Mart.This american company LOVES the profits it sees from chinese labor.Until we wake up enough to be more self -sufficient and less selfish, we reap what we sow.

ChickenHawk

06-07-2005, 06:48 PM

Seriously, help me understand this
Oh... I thought this thread was gonna be about the Yankees.

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FMJeff

06-07-2005, 07:45 PM

This was mentioned in the movie "Primary Colors", and I agree with the movie's standpoint on globalization. The age of the blue collar American worker is coming to an end. This has to become the country of ideas, of innovation, of technology...we have to be the brains funneling the hard labor out to developing countries. In the end, globalization helps mankind by fostering economic security around the world where it currently does not exist. The United States has horded its wealth for far too long, and now its time to share. If that means becoming significantly less rich, than so be it. The idea that we can't coexist with the rest of the world as an equal player in the economic world is classic American ego. We want to be the richest, the fastest, the smartest...but that's not sustainable. It's kind of like a footrace...we've been ahead so long we're begining to tire...get sloppy....fall back,,,its only natural...It will all balance out eventually. Soon Chinese and Indian living standards will increase and as they become more wealthy, the cost of thier labor will increase....and then we move onto the next countries. I am from the opinion that spreading it around does everybody better. 

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El Mudo

06-07-2005, 08:34 PM

zentraed

06-07-2005, 09:18 PM

Does anyone on this board plan on working at the same company for 30
years and then retiring? Hell no! The world is a different place then
it was 50 years ago, and the American worker needs to take the
responsibility to be competitive in the labour market. That means
getting new skills, new training, etc. Instead of asking for the
government to subsidize overpaid labor, demand educational support and
a foreign policy that requires foreign governments and businesses to
support those god-awful expensive things like living wages, health
care, overtime, environmental protections, fuel economy, clean energy,
etc. We can't compete with third world labor practices creating first
world products. Not just free trade, but FAIR trade is what we need to
focus on. If you were a factory worker and every year you saw a mass
layoff, wouldn't you say to yourself, "Maybe I better find a new line
of work"?And
as far as "giving GM a military contract". Modern
war isn't a huge industrial effort. Ask Dick Cheney how to get rich as
a contractor overcharging for gas and sandwiches. Don't know if you
noticed our military budget, but we're always building shit. Bush just
finally came up with a way to use it. Three programs that are a
complete waste of money: New submarines, Star Wars, Nuclear Weapons.
All useless. Like China's gonna give up the Wal-Mart billions just to
fight a war with us.

Yerdaddy

06-08-2005, 05:59 AM

quote: ok, aren't we spending a couple of HUNDRED BILLION a year on Iraq? why don't we do what we did during WWII and commision GM to build millitary hardware for the war effort, throw them three billion or so a year, and they don't have to cut those jobs? But all that military equipment is already being replaced by many other US companes and GM. I think what you're suggesting is "robbing Peter to pay Paul". It's also problematic to look to war to solve economic problems, but that's another story.   quote: Also if Japan and the rest want to collect also good for them.  Why should my dollar mean nothing when we are owed money by a ton of other countries and i am not talking about foreign aid money either Not quite the full story. Keep in mind, our deficit is, what, $7 trillion? That means if everyone just called in their notes today we'd be in the hole $7 trillion. That would be bad. Not that that's going to happen, but it takes the whole "collect our debts" solution off the table.  There isn't an easy answer to these kinds of economic and social problems. American workers ARE competing with Chinese and Indonesian workers who, if they were to make a living wage - not always the case - would cost companies a few dollars a day. It's a distorted labor market, where costs-of-living, standards-of-living and wages are far off-ballance in a way that favors foreign, underdeveloped workers and US companies at the expense of American workers. That's been going on for at least 4 decades now. Problem is, the US hasn't really found a solution to the problem. Protectionism of US jobs is problematic because it undermines our role as the "free trade" leader, especially when that is one of our primary foreign policy tools - see: China policy of getting them addicted to the dollar in the hopes that it will lead them to democracy and peacifism. "Fair trade" is the only viable long-term solution, but it's a complicated business. It means political involvement of ordinary people to demand that the considerations of average Americans be given equal weight as the large companies who have the time, money and incentive to influence our political system much more than Average Joe. I don't see that happening in today's political climate. A few broad generalizations that I think might have something to do with the issue, (read: I don't know what I'm talking about, but I'm talking about it anyway.)1. Companies have been complaining for over a decade now about the major drain on their budgets that rising health-care costs are now. We are the only industrialized country that refuzes to regulate it's medical insurance and pharmaceutical industries in any meaningful way. That's why, when I left the US I was offered a medical insurance policy that cost 1/3 my previous policy and covers me about 4-5 times as much. I was able to ask the the owner of the company I bought the policy from if the reason for this is that "anywhere" outside the US costs are that much lower? He said "yes". I've also seen it here, (I've been an ass-coffee machine about 9 times now!), and you wouldn't believe what I'm paying for medicines. This is hurting businesses, but, at the same time, they don't want to see any kind of precidences set for a major regulation rehaul of an entire industry. So they're being pussies and quietly trying to squeeze the government for subsidies of their health care costs while constantly cutting benefits for their workers. (These are glib generalizations, but I think general trends that represent the strategies of a majority of large companies today.)2. While we have the best universities in the world, we have one of the worst primary education systems in the developed world, (public AND private). We talk about education,

LordJezo

06-08-2005, 06:52 AM

I wont miss GM at all. After my Chevy I will never buy another American car again. They failed and they are getting what they deserve. 

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furie

06-08-2005, 03:29 PM

yeah i second that. chevy does suck.Chrysler has come back up in a big way; but that's not truely an American company anymore is it? 

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Gvac

06-08-2005, 04:14 PM

The blame for GM's collapse goes from top to bottom. Start with a pathetic R&D division that churned out the blandest, most tepid styles in the automotive industry and add in sub-par reliability and voila - sales fell steadily over the years.

Throw in the fat cat CEOs and execs making billions and the union workers demanding obscene salaries and benefits for working on a production line and you have a money pit.

It's a shame to see a once proud company going belly up, and I don't like to see anybody lose their livelihoods, but I find it extremely hard to feel sorry for GM.

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